[HN Gopher] Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, doc...
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Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal
Author : mhb
Score : 229 points
Date : 2026-01-26 00:40 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.iranintl.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.iranintl.com)
| ares623 wrote:
| I can't comprehend how a population can kill that many of their
| own people. They aren't even an "other" people, which has been
| the most common scapegoat lately. Same skin color, same religion,
| same language, same homeland.
| Jabrov wrote:
| A lot of it is being done by mercenaries brought in from
| Afghanistan and Iraq
| gizajob wrote:
| How do you know? Do you have links for that information? And
| if true they'd be regular murders brought in, not
| mercenaries.
| Jabrov wrote:
| In the article it says
|
| " While most of the killings were carried out by IRGC and
| Basij forces, reports received by Iran International
| indicate that proxy forces from Iraq and Syria were also
| used in the crackdown. The deployment of non-local forces
| suggests a decision to expand repression capacity as
| quickly as possible."
| sshine wrote:
| Mercenaries are murderers for hire.
|
| Also, read the article. :)
| bawolff wrote:
| I think the point is that its believed they were
| foreigners who were part of iranian proxy forces (e.g.
| iranian backed militias in iraq), so weren't doing it for
| money but out of some sort of loyalty to the iranian
| regime or ideology.
|
| Usually mercenaries mean people doing it for money not
| ideology who get paid significantly more than your
| average soldier.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Iran is made of many different ethnicities, and there were
| reports of Arab militants that were brought in by the regime
| (it's not hard to imagine given how reliant those organizations
| are on Iran for support).
|
| It's generally not very hard to incite violence across groups
| in the Middle East, especially when you consider how bad the
| outcome might be for the losing side. Case in point, the
| Alawites who lost control of Syria and are now persecuted by
| the new government.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| From the previous uprisings, the regime usually sends Arab
| mercenaries like Hizbollah. They don't speak Farsi and have no
| connection to the people of Iran.
| skissane wrote:
| This is a figure for the whole of Iran. So it includes not just
| the Persian-majority areas, but also the minority-majority
| areas (Azeris, Kurds, Balochs, Arabs, Armenians, etc). It would
| not surprise me if the death toll in the minority-majority
| areas were higher, and hence they contributed a
| disproportionate percentage of the total, since security forces
| would likely find it easier to do that to people of a different
| ethnicity and/or religion (some of these minorities are
| predominantly Sunni, Christian, etc) than to people more like
| themselves.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> I can 't comprehend how a population can kill that many of
| their own people._
|
| The notion of some well-defined "people" is a fiction that
| ruling powers use to keep humanity's innate tribalistic
| tendencies pointed outward at their adversaries.
|
| The truth is that the powers-that-be consider themselves to be
| above "the people", and will dispose of you as soon as you
| become inconvenient.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I can easily comprehend it, the history books are full of
| people killing large numbers of their own people. They just
| find some irrelevant differentiating factor that allows them to
| label the other as the outgroup and bring out the guns, the
| tanks, the ovens and the bombs.
| toyg wrote:
| Also, they know the alternative is that _they_ will be
| dragged in the streets and killed. Iran is long past the
| point where a revolution can be peaceful and conciliatory; if
| the regime falls, there _will_ be a _redde rationem_ where
| most people connected to enforcement and decision-making will
| be very summarily judged by the people they abused for
| decades.
| jacquesm wrote:
| There was a post a while ago, I think it was here, pictures
| from Iran in the early 1970's. It looked absolutely
| amazing.
| hshdhdhj4444 wrote:
| Bringing it home...
|
| Renee Good. Alex Pretti.
|
| It's not just that they were killed but so much of the country
| including, most relevantly, the administration, believe they
| should have been killed.
|
| It's not hard to other any set of people.
| ks2048 wrote:
| It looks like you were downvoted, but you're absolutely
| right. "Their own people" is a silly trope - people are
| always "othered" by something - if not race (I guess what is
| mean by "thier own people"), then by religion, political
| persuasion, etc.
| vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
| It's not necessary to bring American politics into things
| that happen anywhere in the world.
| woodruffw wrote:
| It's not necessarily the primary factor, but it's worth noting
| that Iran is actually a relatively diverse country by the
| region's standards. There are significant Kurdish, Azeri,
| Balochi, etc. minority groups, for whom the idea that they're
| in the same "homeland" as the Persians is not necessarily
| given.
| exidy wrote:
| The Khmer Rouge executed between half a million and a million
| Cambodians between 1975 to 1979[0]. These were the intentional
| killings, estimates range to as many as 2 million Cambodians or
| 25% of the population died as a result of Khmer Rouge polices.
|
| The end of the regime was brought about by an incursion into
| the Vietnamese border town of Ba Chuc, resulting in the
| massacre of more than 3000 civilians. Vietnam invaded, toppled
| the Khmer Rouge and brought an end to the executions although
| civil war would continue for much of the next decade.
|
| For these actions Vietnam was extensively sanctioned[1]. The
| parallels with ongoing conflicts today are hard to ignore.
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge#Crimes_against_hum...
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_W...
| crazygringo wrote:
| For comparison, estimates of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre
| death count are usually put in the 300-1,000 range by journalists
| and human rights groups.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...
| kibwen wrote:
| But note that the Tianenmen Square massacre was only one part
| of a larger nationwide protest:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Chinese_protests_by_regio...
| . There's no telling how many were killed or disappeared
| outside of Beijing.
| Markoff wrote:
| most of the victims during 1989 Beijing massacre were NOT at
| the actual square, people should already stop using this
| simplified term which leads to confusion
|
| but yeah, compared to what Israelis do in Gaza or Iran, even
| whole Beijing numbers are negligible considering China
| population
| redwood wrote:
| Sad that the left and US college students are ignoring the
| realities on the ground here. Qatar too. Just read the rag Al
| Jazeera
| fortran77 wrote:
| The college students and the left support the Iranian regime.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Are these really left and right issues?
|
| IE as the right is becoming more anti-Israel, you find a lot
| more pro Islamic Republic stuff there these days. The boomer
| and zoomer right are very different beasts.
|
| I don't follow the left as closely these days, but imagine
| there are a myriad of opinions on the matter.
| redwood wrote:
| Roger Waters is a boomer but reflects the zoomer left well.
| (To be clear I will be forever grateful to him for his
| music but he should really stop talking when it comes to
| the Iranian and Ukrainian people)
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| right, Russia/Ukraine is another thing which isn't as
| neatly left/right as people think.
|
| I used to read the English version of Russia today, and
| it was almost comical to seem them oscillate articles
| that fit the "Based Mother Russia of Traditional Values"
| trope, then right next to it nostalgic Tankie stuff or
| the anti "Western Imperialist" think pieces. It's like
| they didn't even know who their useful idiots were
| anymore.
| acdha wrote:
| That's quite the claim. Do you have any examples?
| redwood wrote:
| Check out https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/
| acdha wrote:
| There's a subreddit for almost anything, why should we
| think that is broadly representative of US college
| students? Do you have a poll or something?
| komali2 wrote:
| How can I know if this subreddit is populated by college
| students, let alone leftists?
| redwood wrote:
| It's not, it's populated by Iranians wishing to take down
| the regime but frequently they reference college student
| posts from elsewhere, in sadness
| geaibleu wrote:
| No, no we don't. Nor do we want to get involved in a civil
| war in Middle East on behalf of Trumps, Saudis, and Israelis.
| ozlikethewizard wrote:
| "The left", i.e socialists, communists, anarchists, etc, are
| supportive of a theocratic dictatorship? Not sure whats more
| unlikely here, a unified "left" or that they'd be unified
| behind a dictatorship with fascist principles.
| noncoml wrote:
| Is "the left" in the room with us right now?
| yread wrote:
| https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/1/24/iran-rejects-un-rig...
|
| what's wrong with it?
| yieldcrv wrote:
| hm, I think we should re-evaluate sanctioning or civilian
| pressure campaigns, since the guise is for them to coax or turn
| on the government for regime change, but the government can just
| hire mercenaries from outside the country.
|
| don't know a solution but this one isn't it
| thinking_cactus wrote:
| How about plain civil disobedience? Like just stop working? It
| would need to get pretty extreme before the government had the
| audacity (and even capacity) to actually track you down to your
| home and arrest (or kill) you. Although this kind of
| coordination might be difficult with government control of
| communication media.
| PlatoIsADisease wrote:
| >the government can just hire mercenaries from outside the
| country.
|
| Machiavelli in Discourses on Livy says you are inviting an
| overthrow of your government by doing this.
|
| The mercenaries can flip sides if the opposite faction pays
| them and offers them better terms... or maybe the mercs just
| flip.
|
| Hard to say how true this is.
| caminante wrote:
| The source (Iran International) is backed by Saudi money and has
| a bias to dunk on Iran.
|
| That said, I'm sure the death count numbers from the Rasht
| Massacre are staggeringly higher than the initial tallies of
| 2-5k.
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| It looks a LOT like a CIA front.
|
| EDIT: Sorry... that is too strong... "state aligned influence
| media". Note that the headline might be true, or it might not,
| but that source is quite glowy.
| sourcegrift wrote:
| Actually, if anything, that makes it trustworthy because Saudi
| would like the regime to stay so that they can stay out of the
| oil markets and keep the prices high.
| redwood wrote:
| It is a source run by expatriate Iranians of the diaspora.. the
| fact that so many people just discount their point of view it's
| pretty frustrating. If you speak to Iranians that you work with
| it's pretty illuminating
| bigyabai wrote:
| > It is a source run by expatriate Iranians of the diaspora
|
| Including the Mossad, which is kinda an important footnote
| you might not want to omit:
| https://xcancel.com/BarakRavid/status/1560685368780939265/
| ch4s3 wrote:
| According to a twitter comment by a reporter who didn't
| back the claim with any evidence.
| bigyabai wrote:
| With respects to Mordechai Vanunu, I can understand why
| he didn't try leaking documents.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| If Ravid isn't even willing to say that someone told him
| on background, it sounds like bullshit or speculation.
| Guys like Ravid are intentionally or no part of the myth
| making around Mossad where they are simultaneously
| everywhere int he Middle East and nowhere at once.
| awakeasleep wrote:
| It's similar to how so many people dismiss Cuban American
| views on Cuba just because the cuban americans were mostly
| the ownership class that had to flee the revolution.
| spwa4 wrote:
| On the other hand, there is the opposing side that's also
| tough to ignore where they're coming from.
|
| Leftists, with Western pro-Khomeini protests, not just in
| Iran, with the usual involvement from the KGB, and the CIA
| opposing, brought Khomeini to power with claims that he
| would bring a communist revolution. As per tradition in a
| communist revolution, first thing he did once in power is
| execute communist allies. Of course, Iran is still allied
| with the KGB (now FSB) and Moscow, currently delivering
| weapons and weapon designs for use in the war against
| Ukraine.
|
| You could also point out that Iran is kind-of socialist, in
| the sense that the state controls, at minimum, 70% of the
| economy, and all those "companies" are directly controlled
| by the government.
|
| So socialists are still at it, supporting the ayatollah,
| for example:
|
| https://marxist.com/iran-for-a-nationwide-uprising-down-
| with...
|
| Note: yes, I get what the title says, but read. IN the
| article you'll find an insane rant about how Israel and the
| US are really behind the revolution and how despite that
| the regime really held back, and this popular revolution,
| if it fails will bring back national Iranian pride, and the
| revolution failing will be the final push that ayatollah's
| need to actually bring the communist revolution to Iran
| alexmonami wrote:
| There are other sources, like this:
| https://time.com/7357635/more-than-30000-killed-in-iran-say-...
| bawolff wrote:
| If you want a more neutal organization
| https://time.com/7357635/more-than-30000-killed-in-iran-say-...
| cm2012 wrote:
| This is certainly the end of peaceful Iranian protests. Whether
| it leads to a violent revolution or a static police state like
| North Korea remains to be seen.
| voidfunc wrote:
| Seems the regime is OK shooting their way out of this problem.
| How big are these protests? 30K isn't exactly a small number of
| protestors.
| c420 wrote:
| Not just shooting, chemical warfare:
|
| "Iranian security forces deployed unknown chemical substances
| amid deadly crackdowns on protestors in several cities
| earlier this month, eyewitnesses told Iran International,
| causing severe breathing problems and burning pain.
|
| They described symptoms that they said went beyond those
| caused by conventional tear gas, including severe breathing
| difficulties, sudden weakness and loss of movement...
|
| ...According to the accounts, in some cases gunfire began at
| the same time, or immediately after, protesters lost the
| ability to walk or run and fell to the ground.
|
| Several witnesses said that moments of immobilization became
| points at which shooting intensified, particularly when
| protesters collapsed in alleys or while trying to flee.
|
| Reports came from multiple cities, including Tehran, Isfahan
| and Sabzevar."
|
| https://www.iranintl.com/en/202601235991
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > Whether it leads to a violent revolution or a static police
| state like North Korea remains to be seen.
|
| The official name of Iran is "The Islamic Republic of Iran" and
| it is a country ruled by sharia law. Countries ruled by Sharia
| are _already_ totalitarian states.
| xvector wrote:
| One person dies to ICE, the whole country is in outrage; 37k
| people massacred in cold blood - barely a peep.
|
| I hate how irrational our species is and how unempathetic we are
| to situations not immediately in front of us.
|
| And Trump should not have promised assistance. How many more
| people are dead because they were encouraged by said promise?
| Some of these deaths can surely be attributed to him.
| parineum wrote:
| Do you think that the people encouraging ice protests share
| some culpability in the deaths of the other protesters?
| zb3 wrote:
| The fact that he said that and then DID NOT topple the
| government in Iran is insane.. completely irresponsible, or
| rather responsible.. for those deaths.
|
| The irony is that now those who are still alive in Iran might
| remember this and update their notion of US trustworthiness
| accordingly.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Funny you whine about irrationality while ignoring the very
| clear rational reason why Americans are outraged over
| government agents executing a random civilian in their own
| supposedly free country over what's happening in another
| country that is known for being violently oppressive.
| xvector wrote:
| We should be angry about both situations but most people
| truly don't give a fuck about the latter. It is not just the
| Iran situation though.
|
| We make decisions all the time that result in immense amount
| of unnecessary suffering because of a total lack of
| rationality.
|
| Our food consumption choices alone have created the
| objectively largest and most horrific engine of suffering in
| the history of this planet, all for the pleasure of our taste
| buds. The average person is _directly_ responsible for this.
|
| It is the irrationality and lack of empathy of the average
| person that bothers me. Unless you show them a video of
| protestors being massacred in Iran, or take them to a factory
| farm, they don't care. And even then, they often don't care.
| Why?
|
| Suffering is roughly sortable and it is certainly within the
| power of most people to drive down the greatest sources of
| suffering, and pressure their government to do so when it is
| not directly within their power.
|
| But people are irrational.
| dismalaf wrote:
| The outrage over the ICE death is from leftists already opposed
| to ICE. Those same leftists support the Palestinian cause. Iran
| funds Hamas and Hezbollah directly. Iranian/Russian money has
| also been traced to some college protests and obviously
| supports leftist causes.
|
| They're not going to be outraged over the people they support
| killing protestors who want to topple the thing they support.
|
| Also, just to be fair, there's also some right-wing obvious
| Russian agents weirdly not condemning the Islamic Republic...
| EngineerUSA wrote:
| Such a ridiculous take. Get off your hate wagon. Also I argue
| no "leftists" support opposing ICE or Palestine out of
| "leftism". Only hateful bigots would support the execution of
| our people on our streets, or denying Palestinians their
| rights to exist and to freedom, free from a zionist ideology
| that has no respect for property or for life. Maybe if our
| "right wingers" and "Zionist" friends put humanity first and
| not politics or racist judaism first, they would not sound as
| hateful as you do now bud. Your comment is vile, and I can
| only imagine the hate you have in your bones. Although I will
| exclude right wingers here, since they are as of late huge
| supporters of the palestinian cause.
| dismalaf wrote:
| ??? There's an obvious trail of money from Russia and Iran
| that influences current world events. Which is why there's
| no outrage over Iran murdering tens of thousands of
| protestors.
|
| I'm on the side of the Iranian protestors, not the
| murderous Islamic regime and terrorists, nor their
| murderous Russian allies.
|
| What's vile is not being opposed to the murder of 36000
| people.
| EngineerUSA wrote:
| I am very much against Iran bud. However, I am very much
| against Israel too, and your comment merged those
| protesting the murder of Good and more recently Mr Preti
| and left a very bad taste. Do you support in equal fervor
| the trail of money from rich religious donors in the US
| towards starving children in Ghaza for the Zionist
| project? or are you protesting the murders committed by
| the IDF against helpless children? The fact you are
| bringing religion into your argument is vile too. Iran's
| regime is built on oppression, but this is very much not
| a religious struggle. It just tells me you are very much
| ignorant on the subject. Dictatorships (Iran, Russia) are
| not religious by nature. They use culture or religion to
| drive their oppressive agenda, but you are falling for
| tricks that leads me to believe you support the protests
| in Iran not out of wishful helpfulness, but out of
| bigotry. But maybe you are equally supportive of other
| struggles for freedom like the Palestinian struggle.
| dismalaf wrote:
| Religion? Iran's legal name is "the Islamic Republic of
| Iran" and it is widely called the Islamic Republic. I
| just used this name to differentiate from the Iranian
| people or Iran as a country filled with people who don't
| necessarily support the regime.
|
| But you keep bringing up Zionists which gives a clue as
| to your persuasions, especially since they have no role
| in any of the events discussed here unless you believe
| the "Jews run the world" conspiracy theories.
|
| Anyhow, the horseshoe is real and the Russian/Iranian
| money trail is real...
|
| Here's some examples:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/24/uk-protest-
| gro...
|
| https://time.com/7005190/iran-gaza-protests-nuanced-
| reality/
|
| https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/iranian-government-
| actors-se...
|
| https://www.timesofisrael.com/nancy-pelosi-calls-for-fbi-
| pro...
| EngineerUSA wrote:
| That answers me. Bigotry is strong with this one. I am
| not wasting my time or engaging with hate. you must be a
| foreigner since we all call them Iran. You are using the
| term the Iranian leadership likes, maybe you are an
| Iranian or Israeli agent after all! Zionism was used
| because your care for protests does not apply equally it
| seems to innocent protestors. You are siding with evil in
| some instances, and against it in others. It tells me
| where your heart is, and it is not in the right place.
| There is no nuance to starving children like Israel did.
| I cannot engage with you any more given we disagree on
| facts. But maybe the purchase of tiktok can finally help
| your propaganda. You lost me. I am very much once again
| against Iran and Russia (you are not listening) but I
| believe there is hypocrisy at play here
| casey2 wrote:
| Every political group hates every other one. Every time
| "anti-hate" groups come to power there is a purge often
| followed by genocide. Singling out one specific emotion is
| irrational.
|
| If Palestine had full US backing they would push Israelis
| in to the ocean and claiming otherwise is dishonest. UAE is
| the largest backer of Palestine, they have no qualms
| backing genocide in Sudan. So it's just as reasonable to
| claim jihadism has no respect for property or for life.
|
| This isn't whataboutism, if this money wasn't flowing you
| wouldn't hear about it.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| "Help is on the way" from the US is often not a great
| propositon. Doubly so today.
|
| https://reason.com/2026/01/23/the-trump-administration-plans...
|
| The US shipped the carrier battle group in the region out to
| support the Venezuela operations, and is deporting asylum
| seekers back to their deaths this week.
|
| Nobody in the US has any idea what is happening in Iran.
| Judging by the weird, not very HN like threads on this post,
| sounds like we are going to.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| 1 person gets an abortion, the whole country is in outrage.
| Millions of young men get mutilated at birth - barely a peep.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| How is this possible without explosives? Even with vehicle
| mounted machine guns it seems like a crazy high number. Did the
| protestors get boxed in somehow? And across so many locations,
| that seems to require a crazy amount of coordination to kill so
| many in so little time.
| xvector wrote:
| They executed every protestor that was arrested or in the
| hospital (estimated at ~28k.)
| robotresearcher wrote:
| It's absolutely terrible but at the scale of a large country
| it's not logistically hard to get to that many deaths in a
| couple of days. Iran is a big country with population around 93
| million.
|
| The article says "36,500 killed in 400 cities". That's 91
| people per city.
| hahahahhaah wrote:
| I reckon that would require say 6 gunners in each city.
| Plausible.
| defrost wrote:
| The coordination is the thing here, that's many units being
| instructed to carry through in the same manner.
|
| As for the numbers: Interior Ministry reports
| say security forces confronted demonstrators in more than 400
| cities and towns, with more than 4,000 clash locations reported
| nationwide
|
| it's on the order of 100 deaths at each of 400 locations
| (clearly not uniformly distributed, some locations would have
| had many more deaths).
|
| As to the how, the article suggests some deaths immediately
| occurred in crowds - firing, dispersing, funneling, crush
| injuries, etc. leading to _many_ intakes to hospitals and
| treatment tents etc ... followed by execution of the injured.
|
| It's grim stuff.
|
| Some years past the waves of the Rwanda massacres saw almost a
| million people killed in bursts across 100 days, mostly with
| machetes and hand guns.
|
| The numbers reported here are absolutely _feasible_ , the
| _reporting_ is certainly _questionable_ ; bad things happened,
| but was it at the claimed scale?
| bawolff wrote:
| I don't think killing that many people requires much
| coordination when one side has guns (let alone machine guns)
| and a lot of soldiers
| tim333 wrote:
| There were a lot of people with machine guns.
|
| Quite a lot of detail in the nyt article
| https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/25/world/middleeast/iran-how...
| bawolff wrote:
| That's crazy.
|
| That's like ~40% of the deaths in the current gaza war, except
| over just 2 days instead of 2 years.
| PlatoIsADisease wrote:
| I've read a ton of philosophy and something I don't really
| understand is that one nation killing another is more immoral
| than when a nation does this to their own domestic population.
|
| Sure you will get some nay-sayers who say 'a life is a life',
| if moral particles existed, they might be correct.
|
| But for some reason, humanity doesn't seem to care as much.
|
| What makes intra-state politics more acceptable to use
| violence?
| bshepard wrote:
| Because the international order is fundamentally anarchic,
| while domestic orders are (supposed to be at least) nomic,
| structured by law and rights. Yes, there are attempts at
| creating international law, but these amount to treaties more
| than a structured, visible, governing law.
| hahahahhaah wrote:
| > I've read a ton of philosophy and something I don't really
| understand is that one nation killing another is more immoral
| than when a nation does this to their own domestic
| population.
|
| Which books say that?
| layer8 wrote:
| > one nation killing another is more immoral than when a
| nation does this to their own domestic population.
|
| I don't think that's a particularly established moral
| position.
| baubino wrote:
| > something I don't really understand is that one nation
| killing another is more immoral than when a nation does this
| to their own domestic population.
|
| I don't know that anyone thinks a state's violence against
| its citizens is less immoral. It's more that countries are
| more hesitant to get militarily involved in the domestic
| affairs of another country because it would mean essentially
| declaring war against that state. But in a conflict between
| states, an outsider can more easily support one side
| militarily without declaring war against the other side.
| kalterdev wrote:
| "A country that violates the rights of its own citizens, will
| not respect the rights of its neighbors."
|
| That's from my readings of philosophy.
|
| But yeah, I do recognize the same sentiment as you found. I
| think philosophy itself is an answer: most philosophies
| explicitly champion dictatorships, under whitewashed terms.
| Ever heard something like "society is a big organ
| transcending individual needs"? We got it from Hegel.
| Braxton1980 wrote:
| >most philosophies explicitly champion dictatorships
|
| I don't understand how you could make this claim.
|
| "society is a big organ transcending individual needs"?"
|
| How does this statement by Hegel champion dictatorships?
| kalterdev wrote:
| > I don't understand how you could make this claim.
|
| After studying Plato, Hegel, Marx, Rousseau, fascist
| ideologies, Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. This
| list is by no means exhaustive, just a few majors from
| the top of my head.
|
| Sure, they didn't just say "shoot people for power."
| That's a very shallow modern view. Instead, they champion
| extreme forms of altruism and its only logical
| expression: statism, which holds that man's life and work
| belong to the state, to society, to the group, the race,
| the nation, the economic class.
|
| > How does this statement by Hegel champion
| dictatorships?
|
| The statement alone surely doesn't. His philosophy does.
| For him, state is a sacred authority that transcends
| individual will.
| Braxton1980 wrote:
| >For him, state is a sacred authority that transcends
| individual will.
|
| State authority exists in democracys therefore that's not
| an argument for dictatorships
|
| >they champion extreme forms of altruism and its only
| logical expression: statism
|
| Why is statism the only logical expression of extreme
| altruism? Jesus Christ was the ultimate altruist and is
| not a state. I can dedicate my life to only helping
| others over myself as an individual .
|
| You're arguments and example are extremely poor because
| you showing evidence related to governments and states
| but your original claim was to one specific type of
| government, a dictatorship.
| kalterdev wrote:
| For Hegel, state is something vastly different than for
| modern democracies. Sure, democracies can be pervasive as
| well but, to my knowledge, nowhere near Hegel's level,
| not today.
|
| Jesus Christ wasn't a politician so we don't know. But we
| do know that religious politicians, past and modern,
| rarely respect freedom.
|
| > you showing evidence related to governments and states
|
| Not just states but _statism_ , a system in which man's
| life and work belong to the state, and the state may
| claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it. This provides
| the theoretical hardware for dictatorial control.
| Braxton1980 wrote:
| >I've read a ton of philosophy and something I don't really
| understand is that one nation killing another is more immoral
| than when a nation does this to their own domestic
| population.
|
| Who holds this opinion?
|
| >But for some reason, humanity doesn't seem to care as much.
|
| All of humanity cares less about when a government uses
| violence against its citizens than wars?
|
| How can you possibly make this generalization when each
| internal conflict is different just like every war and how
| difficult it is to measure sympathy
| yieldcrv wrote:
| > What makes intra-state politics more acceptable to use
| violence?
|
| Acceptable? It's more about the consequences or lack thereof,
| the incentives
|
| History has shown that pretty much nothing happens to the
| regime unless two coalitions of countries invade from both
| sides simultaneously, and that's like, not going to happen
| bawolff wrote:
| Historically there was sometimes the idea that citizens are
| the property of the sovereign to use or dispose of as he sees
| fit. A lot of historical international law had the view that
| states have absolute feeedom to conduct their internal
| affairs however they saw fit.
|
| Luckily we have largely moved past that view.
|
| I think as a purely practical matter, moral outrage is shaped
| by who controls the information space. If you are a country
| being invaded, you probably have an organized, well funded
| communication department to tell your side. If you are an
| Iranian protestor, not only do you not have that, you don't
| even have internet at all because the state cut off all means
| of communication.
| vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
| I can't even imagine how this could be done. Nazi concentration
| camps would have had trouble killing that many in 2 days.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| that's because they weren't shooting crowds already assembled
| in the streets and going into hospitals nationwide to find
| the injured. Nazi Germany was aiming to maintain plausible
| deniability in the concentration camps for as long as
| possible, while parallel competing plans for what to do with
| the population were being explored and failing. (there were
| other solutions before and alonside the final solution)
| gerikson wrote:
| They also, in many camps, used the inmates as slave labor.
| bawolff wrote:
| At its peak i think (based on googling) the nazis killed
| about 14,000 per day, which would put it in a similar ball
| park on a per-day basis. However they kept up the level of
| killing and didn't stop after just a few days.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/2846/
| dominicrose wrote:
| There was a lot of death in 2 days but the revolution started
| about a month ago so it's not just those two days. I think you
| could compare Gaza to a single Iranian city, but Iran is much
| larger than this. Another important distinction is that - no
| matter what your beliefs are - civilians aren't the target in
| Gaza, but they clearly are the target in Iran. If the civilians
| had weapons, it would be a different story.
| tasuki wrote:
| > Another important distinction is that - no matter what your
| beliefs are - civilians aren't the target in Gaza
|
| "No matter what your beliefs are"? Some people believe that
| Israel is trying to make the people in Gaza starve. If that
| was true, how would they not be a target?
| ursuscamp wrote:
| This is depressing because we will go to war over this and it's
| going to be five years before people realizing they were tricked
| by "babies in incubators" propaganda.
| alex1138 wrote:
| No. Shut up. This has been confirmed by countless Iranians
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| We prepared for this :)
|
| https://battlefield.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_for_Tehran
| Dban1 wrote:
| The internet is fragile. Access can be so easily cut off for the
| masses in dire times.
| Thaxll wrote:
| But hey, help is coming.
| freitasm wrote:
| Narrator's voice: "Unfortunatelly, they will be waiting
| forever, becase that help will never come."
| hahahahhaah wrote:
| help will come ... but with scare quotes.
| maest wrote:
| Should this be flagged? I was told HN is not a place for politics
| and that "if it's on the news, it's not for HN".
|
| Or does that logic only apply to US-based developments?
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| This is a little different, this is probably an issue anyone of
| any side politically can agree is bad. A government is killing
| their own people in the tens of thousands. It is foolish to
| even waste time pointing fingers outside of the country in
| question in my eyes because its irrelevant, their current
| government is killing citizens in the right here and right now.
| noncoml wrote:
| When people, or communities, or companies, show you their true
| colors, believe them. Watch out for all those flocking in to
| explain how this is different...
| mapontosevenths wrote:
| > "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports,
| or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new
| phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal
| pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-
| topic." [0]
|
| However, it also says:
|
| > "Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If
| a story is spam or off-topic, flag it." [0]
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| monkaiju wrote:
| The idea that we can "avoid politics" while talking about the
| industry is ridiculous anyway...
| Markoff wrote:
| it should especially considering questionable biased sources
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I don't believe these numbers.
|
| This is not a comment of support of the Iranian regime, or
| against the people of Iran to have which ever government they see
| fit.
|
| But these numbers are simply not credible. It's 40 beheaded
| babies all over again.
|
| Remember the governing ideology of the US and Israel sees the
| continued existence of Iran as an existential threat. Their aims
| may align with the protestors temporarily but I think a
| permanently fractured, Syria type situation is much more
| palatable to them than a rapid transition to a more democratic
| system that leaves the country intact. There is no guarantee a
| post-islamic Iran would step into line, and it would remain a
| regional power that would be much harder to justify continued
| sanctions against.
|
| A part of me suspects the incredibly conspicuous endorsement of
| the protestors by the US/Israel regime is an attempt to discredit
| them. A zombie regime under the Mullahs will likely to continue
| to implode economically, which means they are less able to defend
| themselves from US/Israeli attacks in the future. A clean change
| of government with domestic US pressure to lift sanctions would
| be their nightmare scenario.
| fwipsy wrote:
| Iran is the 17th most populous nation in the world, with 93
| million people. These protests seem to be occurring across the
| entire nation. Another comment mentioned over 4,000 separate
| clashes. Other sources have already corroborated a lower bound
| in the mid-thousands. I think the burden is on you to refute
| these numbers by showing that the sources are deliberately
| misleading or finding a flaw in the methodology. Simply saying
| that you find them "not credible" and that some people might
| have a political motive behind sharing them is not an argument.
|
| Note, I'm not saying that they have been confirmed, but I do
| not think that you have given sufficient cause for rejecting
| them out of hand.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| https://www.en-hrana.org/day-twenty-eight-of-the-protests-
| ar...
|
| This is the organisation most commonly cited in news reports,
| they estimate ~5200 protestors confirmed killed (+ a few
| hundred more for security personnel killed)
|
| They are a group of anti-regime Iranian dissidents based in
| the US. I don't know why they would seek to provide a
| deliberately low estimate.
| fwipsy wrote:
| Confirmed != estimated. This source does not make any
| estimates. They are investigating every death individually.
| Given the lack of transparency, the true number of deaths
| is likely higher than the number which can be confirmed at
| this time.
|
| As of writing this comment, the subtitle says "The number
| of deaths currently under investigation stands at 17,031."
| They do not claim that this is the total number of deaths
| either.
|
| 30,000 is not confirmed but cannot be ruled out.
| sunshengguang wrote:
| He's talking his book
| gmerc wrote:
| Take a good look US, because once you're down far enough the
| fascist drain, that's the cost of trying to claw your way back
| out. And there's no hope of external intervention given nuclear
| arms
| jonehiskey1 wrote:
| the only way out is limited government and abolishing the IRS
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46754132
| Markoff wrote:
| brought to you by unbiased quality sources on par with those
| which claimed WMD in Iraq... /s
| ozlikethewizard wrote:
| The source is certainly unreliable, a quick scan of the wiki
| sources give you that:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_International
|
| But does the number even matter? Whether its 4000 or 35000 the
| conduct has been unacceptable.
|
| The real question is the solution, is reporting like this
| designed to be used as the backdrop to foreign intervention? How
| many people will be killed then?
|
| "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" - Not Stalin
| hggh wrote:
| Who designed this abomination of website? The "infinite" scroll
| is preventing me to get to the footer links.
| metalman wrote:
| flat out fake news zionist bullshit.
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