[HN Gopher] BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driv...
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BYD's cheapest electric cars to have Lidar self-driving tech
Author : senti_sentient
Score : 72 points
Date : 2026-01-11 20:52 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thedriven.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (thedriven.io)
| cadamsdotcom wrote:
| Disruption at its finest :)
| senti_sentient wrote:
| Someone said that LiDAR is too expensive, camera is better :)
| iknowstuff wrote:
| And then made the best adas on the market using cameras
| refulgentis wrote:
| I've struggled with this over the years, but think we can
| call it at this point: Waymo is definitely better.
|
| Just too much real world data.
|
| (i.e. scaled paid service, no drivers, multiple cities, for
| 1 year+)
| DustinBrett wrote:
| We being who? What is your evidence it's better? The fact
| all the cars stopped moving when the power went out? The
| fact they cost WayMore? Show the evidence for your
| claims. And they have remote operators as proven by the
| power outage.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Apologies, I was unclear with the "i.e." bit I assume, to
| spell it out: I think after struggling with it over years
| its time to call it because Waymo has a scaled paid
| service, no drivers, multiple cities, for 1 year+.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Waymo is fully autonomous, FSD is an adas for consumers.
|
| Robotaxi is a separate product. They are fantastic at
| driving but until they remove supervisors it's a moot
| comparison
| refulgentis wrote:
| Ah, I see. ADAS as in "assistance on a car I can buy",
| makes sense.
| terminalshort wrote:
| Is it really comparable, though? What is better a Ferrari
| or a Ford Ranger? That depends on if you are trying to go
| fast or haul 500 lbs of stuff across town. Waymo is a
| much better completely autonomous robo taxi in limited
| areas mapped to the mm, but if I want an autonomous
| driving system for my personal car to go wherever I want,
| Tesla FSD is the better option.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| By what metric? In terms of deaths, injuries, and crashes
| per mile their Full Self Driving at least an order of
| magnitude behind Waymo
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Show the proof then with links to unbias articles and the
| numbers/math.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Waymo is not an adas. There's nothing close to FSD 14
| abilities out there for consumers.
|
| And your stats comparing to waymo are made up and
| debunked in the very reddit thread they came from
| cyberax wrote:
| Sure. And Tesla doesn't have robotaxis at all, they're
| still playing in the kindergarten league.
|
| So Tesla is in a weird state right now. Tesla's highway
| assist is shit, it's worse than Mercedes previous
| generation assist after Tesla switched to the end-to-end
| neural networks. The new MB.Drive Assist Pro is
| apparently even better.
|
| FSD attempts to work in cities. But it's ridiculously
| bad, it's worse than useless even in simple city
| conditions. If I try to turn it on, it attempts to kill
| me at least once on my route from my office to my home.
| So other car makers quite sensibly avoided it, until they
| perfected the technology.
| ronnier wrote:
| This goes against my daily fsd usage and my friends fsd
| usage. We all use fsd daily, zero issues, through hard
| city and highway environments. It's near perfect outside
| of the occasional weird routing issues (but that's not a
| safety issue). We all have the latest fsd on hw4. No
| other consumer car on the market in the US can do this
| (go from point a to b with zero interventions through
| city and highway). If there was something better then I'd
| buy it, but there's not.
| terminalshort wrote:
| The issue here is that "zero issues" is something that
| must be based on a very large sample size. In the US the
| death rate for cars is a bit over 1 per 100 million
| miles. So you really need billions of miles of data. FSD
| could be 10x as dangerous as the average driver and still
| it would most likely be "zero issues" for you and all
| your friends.
| qwerpy wrote:
| I'll post the 7 billion miles of stats here
| (https://www.tesla.com/fsd/safety) but then the
| objections will be "it's Tesla of course they lie" and
| the debunked "they turn FSD off right before an
| accident".
| ronnier wrote:
| It doesn't matter what stats are shown. You'll dismiss it
| because of political reasons. You can lie to yourself and
| others but I use this car daily and you won't fool me.
| cyberax wrote:
| Sigh. FSD is OK on freeways, but it constantly changes
| lanes for no discernible reasons. Sometimes unsafely or
| unnaturally, forcing me to take over. The previous stack
| had a setting to disable that, but not the new end-to-end
| NN-based system.
|
| In cities, it's just shit. If you're using it without
| paying attention, your driving license has to be revoked
| and you should never be allowed to drive.
| durandal1 wrote:
| For anyone who has or has experienced the latest gen FSD
| from Tesla this comes across as a complete lie. Why would
| you spend energy lying on HN of all places?
| qwerpy wrote:
| I recently went on vacation and rented a 7 year old Model
| X and the FSD on it (v12) was better than nothing but not
| great, especially after having v14 on my truck drive 99%
| of my miles. It truly is a life-changer for people
| fortunate enough to have it, so it's always jarring to
| see the misinformed/dishonest comments online. It's still
| not perfect but at this point I would trust it more than
| the average human and certainly more than a
| new/old/exhausted/inebriated/distracted driver.
| cyberax wrote:
| I've been using Tesla since 2015. And no, it's not a lie.
|
| Tesla FSD gives up with the red-hands-of-death panic at
| this spot: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Cfe9LBzaCLpGSAr99
| (edit: fixed the location)
|
| It also misinterprets this signal:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/fhZsQtN5LKy59Mpv6 It doesn't have
| enough resolution to resolve the red left arrow,
| especially when it's even mildly rainy.
|
| At this intersection, it just gets confused and I have to
| take over to finish the turn:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/DHeBmwpe3pfD6AXc6
|
| You're welcome to try these locations.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _anyone who has or has experienced the latest gen FSD
| from Tesla this comes across as a complete lie_
|
| I used the latest FSD and Waymo in December. FSD still
| needs to be supervised. It's impressive and better than
| what my Subaru's lane-keeping software can do. But I can
| confidently nap in a Waymo. These are totally different
| products and technology stacks.
| cr125rider wrote:
| That's not true at all. Tesla taxis aren't even close to
| Waymo's capabilities.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| I said adas, nothing about waymo. That being said, yes
| they are, I ride them every day.
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Where is the proof/evidence for this statement?
| jeltz wrote:
| Curious how you only ask this to people who claim Teslas
| are bad and not to people who claim Teslas are good.
| kcb wrote:
| I was just thinking about this on my 60 mile FSD driver I
| just finished. Basically inevitable that I would shortly go
| HN or reddit and read how FSD doesn't work.
|
| FSD is here, it wasn't 3 or 4 years ago when I first bought
| a Tesla, but today it's incredible.
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| The long-term view of LIDAR was not so much that it was
| expensive, though it was at the time. The issue is that it is
| susceptible to interference if everyone is using LIDAR for
| everything all the time and it is vulnerable to
| spoofing/jamming by bad actors.
|
| For better or worse, passive optical is much more robust
| against these types of risks. This doesn't matter much when
| LIDAR is relatively rare but that can't be assumed to remain
| the case forever.
| consumer451 wrote:
| I am just some schmoe, but optics alone can be easily
| spoofed as any fan of the Wile E. Coyote has known for
| decades. [0]
|
| What's crazy to me is that anyone would think that anything
| short of ASI could take image based world understanding to
| true FSD. Tesla tried to replicate human response,
| ~"because humans only have eyes" but largely without even
| stereoscopic vision, ffs.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJL3htsDyQ
| solumunus wrote:
| Why isn't the solution a combination of both?
| ycui1986 wrote:
| everyone uses cellphone that transmit on the same
| frequency. they don't seem to cause interference. once
| enough lidar enters real word use. there will be regulation
| to make them work with each other.
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| Completely different problem domains. A mobile phone is
| interacting with a fixed point (i.e. cell tower) that
| coordinates and manages traffic across cell phones to
| minimize interference. LIDAR is like wifi, a commons that
| can be polluted at will by arbitrary actors.
|
| LIDAR has much more in common with ordinary radar (it is
| in the name, after all) and is similarly susceptible to
| interference.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| Lidars come down in price ~40x.
|
| https://cleantechnica.com/2025/03/20/lidars-wicked-cost-drop...
|
| Meanwhile visible light based tech is going up in price due to
| competing with ai on the extra gpu need while lidar gets the
| range/depth side of things for free.
|
| Ideally cars use both but if you had to choose one or the other
| for cost you'd be insane to choose vision over lidar. Musk made
| an ill timed decision to go vision only.
|
| So it's not a surprise to see the low end models with lidar.
| refulgentis wrote:
| ^ this, the article is quoting LIDAR price ($25K) from years
| ago.
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Show the cost differences and do the math then come back to us
| before you can suggest what decisions were ill timed. Otherwise
| it's just armchair engineering.
| refulgentis wrote:
| I'd love to take on this challenge: the article they linked
| shows the cost add for LIDAR (+$130) --
|
| -- but I'm not sure how to get data on ex. how much Tesla is
| charged for a Nvidia whatever or what compute Waymo has --
|
| My personal take is Waymo uses cameras too so maybe we have
| to assume the worst case, +full cost of lidar / +$130
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Tesla uses their own chips. Chips which you can't skip by
| using lidar because you still need to make decisions based
| on vision. A sparse distance cloud is not enough
| terminalshort wrote:
| The issue isn't just the cost of the lidar units off the
| shelf. You have to install the sensors on the car.
| Modifications like that at the scale that Waymo does them
| (they still have less than 10K cars) are not automated and
| probably cost almost as much as the price of the car
| itself. BYD is getting around this by including them in a
| mass produced car, so their cost per unit is closer to the
| $130 off the shelf price. This is the winning combination
| IMO.
| RivieraKid wrote:
| Depends on the specific lidar model. It seems that there's a
| wide range of lidar prices and capabilities and it's hard to
| find pricing info.
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| Could it also be about the looks? Waymo has a rather industrial
| look, with so many LiDARs, and the roof turret.
| golemiprague wrote:
| Some companies work on reducing the size of it so
| manufacturers will be able to put it inside the car behind
| the mirror. Innoviz is one example
| https://techtime.news/2025/11/14/innoviz-27/
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Can lidar say what colour is traffic light?
| pyrolistical wrote:
| It's not either lifar or regular cameras. Use both and
| combine the information to exceed the humans
| mrtksn wrote:
| I wonder if ubiquity doesn't effect the lidar performance?
| Wouldn't the systems see each other's laser projections if
| there are multiple cars close to each other? Also is LIDAR
| immune to other issues like bright 3rd party sources? At least
| on iPhone I'm having faceid performance degradation. Also, I
| suspect other issues like thin or transparent objects net being
| detected.
|
| With vision you rely on external source or flood light. Its
| also how our civilization is designed to function in first
| place.
|
| Anyway, the whole self driving obsession is ridiculous because
| being driven around in a bad traffic isn't that much better
| than driving in bad traffic. It's cool but can't beat a the
| public infrastructure since you can't make the car dissipated
| when not in use.
|
| IMHO, connectivity to simulate public transport can be the real
| sweet spot, regardless of sensor types. Coordinated cars can
| solve traffic and pretend to be trains.
| Philip-J-Fry wrote:
| I'd assume not since Waymo uses lidar and has entire depots
| of them driving around in close proximity when not in use.
| quietsegfault wrote:
| LIDAR systems use timing, phase locking, and software
| filtering to identify and eliminate interference from other
| units. There is still risk of interference, resulting in
| reduced range, noise, etc.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Between anti-Musk sentiment, competition in self driving and
| the proven track record of Lidar, I think we'll start seeing
| jurisdictions from Europe to New York and California banning
| camera-only self-driving beyond Level 3.
| general1465 wrote:
| Nah, you don't need to ban anything. Just force the rule,
| that if company sells self driving, they are also taking full
| liability for any damages of this system.
| cyberax wrote:
| Keep in mind, that $25k AUD is just $16600. And for that price,
| you're getting a real car with driver-assist features and a
| reasonable crash safety rating.
|
| The US car manufacturers are cooked.
| aetherspawn wrote:
| I heard from a friend he paid around $12k AUD for the cheapest
| new ICE car, Holden brand, which I guess proves the west can
| compete if they try?
|
| Edit: Holden Spark.
| jhy wrote:
| New? You haven't been able to buy a new Holden since '21.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| Well the best comparison are the Teslas which are made in
| China (all Teslas sold in Australia today) vs Teslas made in
| the USA.
|
| For the model 3 it's USD$8000 cheaper like for like.
| pityJuke wrote:
| The Holden Spark appears to just be a re-badge of a Chevrolet
| Spark, which was made by their South Korean subsidiary, and
| was discontinued three years ago [0].
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Spark#Discontinu
| atio...
| vmchale wrote:
| > The US car manufacturers are cooked.
|
| Biden put a 100% tariff on Chinese cars and then Trump added
| tariffs on inputs.
|
| Americans are getting screwed!
| plemer wrote:
| We in the US can't hide forever.
| g947o wrote:
| US manufacturers are going to be ok as long as there are
| policies banning foreign cars and there are tariffs, which is
| going to be true for a long time.
|
| And somehow US consumers feel comfortable paying more for worse
| cars.
| senti_sentient wrote:
| I had family friends visiting Australia from USA and they
| were surprised by the sheer number and varieties of Chinese
| cars on our roads. I too have a BYD Dolphin and Shark, they
| loved them and felt they're missing out big time on this.
| Mind you we have lots of Teslas on the roads as well, but
| they are bleeding their lead.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| Those Teslas in Australia are Chinese made too of course as
| are the majority of Teslas globally. USA made really
| doesn't exist at all in Australia. It's merely USA branded.
| Even the Ford Ranger that's sold in Australia is made in
| Thailand.
| senti_sentient wrote:
| True true... isn't the LFP battery pack in model 3 and
| and Y supplied by BYD as well?
| cyberax wrote:
| This can't last indefinitely. At some point, the contrast
| between the US-made and Chinese-made cars will become too
| great to ignore.
|
| We saw that during the 80-s, with the Japanese cars.
| DustinEchoes wrote:
| Still not convinced of the safety of lidar. I guess all these
| cars with cheap lidar sensors on board will generate real world
| safety data over the next few years.
| senti_sentient wrote:
| Why not? And cheap is a relative term, from American point of
| view these sensors may be expensive because they have to buy it
| from suppliers, from BYD's perspective it could be home grown
| given they are by far the most vertically integrated vehicle
| manufacturer.
| DustinEchoes wrote:
| See here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46110395
| neilv wrote:
| What if the real world safety data over time is... secret
| retinal damage to millions of walkers and runners, with
| symptoms attributed to Covid mysteries (and not obviously due
| to vision), and it takes years more before someone happens to
| get enough data, and does the right study analysis, and then
| there's industry with strong incentive not to be on the hook
| for blinding millions of people?
|
| If the tech industry has taught us anything, it's that big
| money is still as irresponsible and greedy as ever.
|
| I suppose that one small bit of hope is that one of the most
| obvious bad actors in general happened to be opposed to Lidar,
| and might like to screw competitors with a scandal. So the news
| might come out, after much tragic damage is done.
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| The roof mount seems very practical, but it's a look that may
| turn off some buyers... buyers who care about looks.
|
| For SUVs, maybe it could be blended in with a roof air scoop,
| like on some off-road trucks. Or a light bar.
|
| Where is the LiDAR on the Atto 1? In the grille? How much worse
| is the field of view?
| senti_sentient wrote:
| My personal take is that if users can get used to the notch on
| the iPhone , they could get used to that too.
| protastus wrote:
| My impression is that Chinese consumer products haven't been
| hijacked by the "design above everything else" mindset. The
| priority is to make things work at scale.
|
| American product design is obsessed with appearance and finish.
| Products end up costing 3 times more and functionality is
| degraded.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Also car as a status symbol. If you look at it more
| utilitarian it's not that bad as long it's somehow compatible
| with a roof rack or box.
| senti_sentient wrote:
| I have noticed that in Chinese web / app design philosophy as
| well, it's always function over form.
| Tycho wrote:
| How do you train a model to drive with LiDAR when the human
| drivers who generate the training data don't use LiDAR?
| knallfrosch wrote:
| Scan with LiDAR while manually driving.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Hell, you could even use slower offline 3d reconstruction of
| vision data for training, and still ultimately rely on
| runtime LiDAR.
| hnburnsy wrote:
| Related: Volvo drops LIDAR...
|
| https://www.carscoops.com/2025/11/volvo-says-sayonara-to-lid...
| senti_sentient wrote:
| Aren't they Chinese owned?
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