[HN Gopher] New information extracted from Snowden PDFs through ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       New information extracted from Snowden PDFs through metadata
       version analysis
        
       Author : libroot
       Score  : 255 points
       Date   : 2026-01-10 11:23 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (libroot.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (libroot.org)
        
       | pfisherman wrote:
       | Can someone spell out how this is possible? Do pdfs store a
       | complete document version history? Do they store diffs in the
       | metadata? Does this happen each time the document is edited?
        
         | alhirzel wrote:
         | PDFs are just a table of objects and tree of references to
         | those objects; probably, prior versions of the document were
         | expressed in objects with no references or something like that.
        
         | flotzam wrote:
         | At the bottom of the page there's a link to the pdfresurrect
         | package, whose description says
         | 
         | "The PDF format allows for previous changes to be retained in a
         | revised version of the document, thereby keeping a running
         | history of revisions to the document.
         | 
         | This tool extracts all previous revisions while also producing
         | a summary of changes between revisions."
        
           | QuantumNomad_ wrote:
           | Neat!
           | 
           | https://github.com/enferex/pdfresurrect
        
         | aidos wrote:
         | You can replace objects in PDF documents. A PDF is mostly just
         | a bunch of objects of different types so the readers know what
         | to do with them. Each object has a numbered ID. I recommend
         | mutool for decompressing the PDF so you can read it in a text
         | editor:                   mutool clean -d in.pdf out.pdf
         | 
         | If you look below you can see a Pages list (1 0 obj) that
         | references (2 0 R) a Page (2 0 obj).                   1 0 obj
         | <<           /Type /Pages           /Count 1           /Kids [
         | 2 0 R ]         >>         endobj              2 0 obj
         | <<           /Type /Page           /Contents 5 0 R
         | ...         >>         endobj
         | 
         | Rather than editing the PDFs in place, it's possible to update
         | these objects to overwrite them by appending a new "generation"
         | of an object. Notice the 0 has been incremented to a 1 here.
         | This allows leaving the original PDF intact while making edits.
         | 1 1 obj         <<           /Type /Pages           /Count 2
         | /Kids [ 2 0 R 200 0 R ]         >>         endobj
         | 
         | You can have anything inside a PDF that you want really and it
         | could be orphaned so a PDF reader never picks up on it. There's
         | nothing to say an object needs to be referenced (oh, there's a
         | "trailer" at the end of the PDF that says where the Root node
         | is, so they know where to start).
        
           | SeriousM wrote:
           | To put it reaaaaaly simple, a PDF is like a notion document
           | (blocks and bricks) with a git-like object graph?
        
             | aidos wrote:
             | Ha! As if anything about Notion is simple.
             | 
             | But yeah. It's all just objects pointing at each other.
             | It's mostly tree structured, but not entirely. You have a
             | Catalog of Pages that have Resources, like Fonts (that are
             | likely to be shared by multiple pages hence, not a tree).
             | Each Page has Contents that are a stream of drawing
             | instructions.
             | 
             | This gives you a sense of what it all looks like. The
             | contents of a page is a stack based vector drawing system.
             | Squint a little (or stick it through an LLM) and you'll see
             | Tf switches to Font F4 from the resources at size 14.66, Tj
             | is placing a char at a position etc.                   2 0
             | obj         <<           /Type /Page           /Resources
             | <<             /Font <<               /F4 4 0 R
             | >>           >>           /Contents 5 0 R         >>
             | endobj              5 0 obj         <<           /Length
             | 340         >>         stream         q         BT
             | /F4 14.66 Tf         1 0 0 -1 0 .47981739 Tm         0
             | -13.2773438 Td <002B> Tj         10.5842743 0 Td <004C> Tj
             | ET         Q...         endstream         endobj
             | 
             | I'm going to hand wave away the 100+ different types of
             | objects. But at it's core it's a simple model.
        
           | pfisherman wrote:
           | Thanks for the technical explanation! This is pretty
           | fascinating.
           | 
           | So it works kind of like a soft delete -- dereference instead
           | of scrubbing the bits.
           | 
           | Is this behavior generally explicitly defined in PDF editors
           | (i.e. an intended feature)? Is it defined in some standard or
           | set of best practices? Or is it a hack (or half baked
           | feature) someone implemented years ago that has just kind of
           | stuck around and propagated?
        
             | clord wrote:
             | The intention is to make editing easy and quick on slow and
             | memory deficient computers. This is how for example editing
             | a pdf with form field values can be so fast. It's just
             | appending new values for those nodes. If you need to omit
             | edits you'd have to regenerate a fresh pdf from the root.
        
         | 1317 wrote:
         | https://hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/1085-A-Typ...
        
       | alhirzel wrote:
       | There needs to be better tooling for inspecting PDF documents.
       | Right now, my needs are met by using `qpdf` to export QDF [1],
       | but it is just begging for a GUI to wrap around it...
       | 
       | [1] https://qpdf.readthedocs.io/en/stable/qdf.html
        
         | soared wrote:
         | In what contest do you use that tool? Looks like that page is
         | primarily about editing pdfs using that format rather than
         | inspecting.
         | 
         | Very tempting to fool around with the ideas especially after
         | the Epstein pdf debacle.
        
         | piffey wrote:
         | Take a look at the REMNux reverse engineering page for PDF
         | documents (https://docs.remnux.org/discover-the-
         | tools/analyze+documents...). Lots of tools here for looking at
         | malicious PDFs that can be used to inspect/understand even non-
         | malicious documents.
        
       | treetalker wrote:
       | % pdfresurrect -w epsteinfiles.pdf
        
         | cypherpunks01 wrote:
         | Anyone tried this?
        
           | snek_case wrote:
           | Weekend project?
        
       | jokoon wrote:
       | I have read claims that there were fake documents inserted in
       | those leaks, who aimed at pushing disinformation.
        
         | firefax wrote:
         | Maybe you should include a source, especially if you're making
         | claims about alleged " _disinformation_ "? :-)
        
         | nkrisc wrote:
         | That itself would be a very convenient lie if the disclosures
         | were damaging or embarrassing.
        
       | Ms-J wrote:
       | This is insightful work, great job.
       | 
       | Recently someone else revisited the Snowden documents and also
       | found more info, but I can't recall the exact details.
       | 
       | Snowden and the archives were absolute gifts to us all. It's a
       | shame he didn't release everything in full though.
        
         | libroot wrote:
         | Thank you. The most recent completely new information from the
         | Snowden files is found in Jacob Appelbaum's 2022 thesis[1], in
         | which he revealed information that had not been previously
         | public (not found on any previously published documents and so
         | on). And AFAIK, the most recent new information from the
         | published documents (along with this post) might actually be in
         | our other posts[2], but there might be some others we aren't
         | aware of.
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.electrospaces.net/2023/09/some-new-snippets-
         | from...
         | 
         | [2]: Part 2: https://libroot.org/posts/going-through-snowden-
         | documents-pa...
         | 
         | and part 3: https://libroot.org/posts/going-through-snowden-
         | documents-pa...
        
       | password4321 wrote:
       | The "print and scan physical papers back to a PDF of images"
       | technique for final release is looking better and better from an
       | information protection perspective.
        
         | cookiengineer wrote:
         | > The "print and scan physical papers back to a PDF of images"
         | technique for final release is looking better and better from
         | an information protection perspective.
         | 
         | Note that all (edit: color-/ink-) printers have "invisible to
         | the human eye" yellow dotcodes, which contain their serial
         | number, and in some cases even the public IP address when
         | they've already connected to the internet (looking at you, HP
         | and Canon).
         | 
         | So I'd be careful to use a printer of any kind if you're not in
         | control of the printer's firmware.
         | 
         | There's lots of tools that started to decode the information
         | hidden in dotcodes, in case you're interested [1] [2] [3]
         | 
         | [1] https://github.com/Natounet/YellowDotDecode
         | 
         | [2] https://github.com/mcandre/dotsecrets
         | 
         | [3] (when I first found out about it in 2007)
         | https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/camp/2007/Fahrplan/events/197...
        
           | everdrive wrote:
           | >Note that all printers have "invisible to the human eye"
           | yellow dotcodes, which contain their serial number, and in
           | some cases even the public IP address when they've already
           | connected to the internet (looking at you, HP and Canon).
           | 
           | I've got a black and white brother printer which uses toner.
           | Is there something similar for this printer?
        
             | gramie wrote:
             | I believe that this only exists for colour printers. The
             | official reasoning was to trace people counterfeiting
             | money.
        
             | cookiengineer wrote:
             | > black and white brother printer
             | 
             | excellent choice, that's what I am using. Also it's Linux /
             | CUPS compatible and without a broken proprietary
             | rasterizer.
        
               | contingencies wrote:
               | Same thing here. A few years ago I bought three brands of
               | printer-scanner combos for our R&D office, returned the
               | others. Brother was the least broken despite still not
               | being perfect. Issues include broken scanning drivers and
               | fake toner warnings at ~1/3 level.
        
             | nwallin wrote:
             | It's only there for color printers.
             | 
             | A tiny yellow dot on white paper is basically invisible to
             | the human eye. Yellow ink absorbs blue light and no other
             | light, and human vision is crap at resolving blue details.
             | 
             | A tiny black dot on white paper sticks out like a sore
             | thumb.
        
             | IshKebab wrote:
             | Yes, the data can be embedded by modulating the laser.
             | 
             | But I've only seen research showing that it's possible. As
             | far as I know nobody has demonstrated whether actual laser
             | printers use that technique or not.
        
           | mmh0000 wrote:
           | If you have a UV flashlight, these dots are visible with
           | decent vision.
           | 
           | And of course we have to include the Wikipedia entry:
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_tracking_dots
        
             | culi wrote:
             | And also EFF's attempt to track all printers that do or do
             | not display tracking dots which they eventually prepended
             | with
             | 
             | > (Added 2015) Some of the documents that we previously
             | received through FOIA suggested that all major
             | manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret
             | agreement with governments to ensure that the output of
             | those printers is forensically traceable.
             | 
             | > This list is no longer being updated.
             | 
             | https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-
             | not-d...
        
           | emptybits wrote:
           | Thanks for the links but can you share evidence for the
           | "public IP address" claim? Each time I've read this concept
           | (intriguing! possible!), I search for evidence and I can't
           | find any.
           | 
           | The MIC and yellow dots have been studied and decoded by many
           | and all I've ever seen, including at your links, are
           | essentially date + time + serial#.
           | 
           | Don't get me wrong ... stamping our documents with a
           | fingerprint back to our printers and adding date and time is
           | nasty enough. I don't see a need to overstate the scope of
           | what is shared though.
        
           | culi wrote:
           | That's why I'm (still) waiting on this
           | https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer
           | 
           | It's mindboggling how much open-source 3d printing stuff is
           | out there (and I'm grateful for it) but this is completely
           | lacking in the 2d printing world
        
             | octoberfranklin wrote:
             | Sorry, you have been blocked You are unable to access
             | crowdsupply.com Why have I been blocked? This website is
             | using a security service to protect itself from online
             | attacks. The action you just performed triggered the
             | security solution. There are several actions that could
             | trigger this block including submitting a certain word or
             | phrase, a SQL command or malformed data.
             | 
             | What can I do to resolve this? You can email the site owner
             | to let them know you were blocked. Please include what you
             | were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID
             | found at the bottom of this page.
             | 
             | Cloudflare Ray ID: 9bbed59d7bcd9dfc * Performance &
             | security by Cloudflare
        
           | askvictor wrote:
           | Could this be circumvented by randomly (or not-so-randomly)
           | adding single-pixel yellow dots to the data sent to the
           | printer?
        
         | tester756 wrote:
         | Why not just make screenshoot of every PDF page?
        
           | jeffbee wrote:
           | It could still be identifiable, for example if the document
           | has been prepared such that the intended recipient's identity
           | is encoded into subtle modulation of the widths of spaces.
        
             | sincerely wrote:
             | Print and re-scan wouldn't fix that though.
        
               | jeffbee wrote:
               | That was my point. If you want to erase its origin you
               | need to semantically extract the contents and reduce them
               | to their most basic representation.
        
             | tester756 wrote:
             | Sure, but all those not-essential information hidden in
             | PDFs format are removed
        
             | yyyk wrote:
             | That's outside this threat model? The idea here is trying
             | to foil outside analysis, not limit the document authors
             | (which are allowed to add/update and even write openly 'the
             | intended recipient's identity').
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | In PDF file format?
        
         | emeril wrote:
         | I suppose I'd just save the pdf to tiff/png then remake back
         | into a pdf from there to avoid printing and scanning?
         | 
         | if really paranoid, I suppose one could run a filter on the
         | image files to make them a bit fuzzy/noisy
        
           | maximilianthe1 wrote:
           | I think "Print to PDF" would be easiest
        
             | bawolff wrote:
             | I'd worry print to pdf might be ineffective. I think
             | rasterizing is the way to go.
        
         | JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
         | Is there a multifunction B&W printer which prints and then
         | automatically positions the paper on the scanner and scans?
        
           | dredmorbius wrote:
           | Far more straightforward to print a stack, then feed that
           | stack through the copier/scanner.
        
             | IshKebab wrote:
             | You don't need to _actually_ print and scan. Just convert
             | to a raster format like PNG.
        
               | iAMkenough wrote:
               | Then use OCR to convert it back from raster for Section
               | 508 compliance. All the existing work to make handwritten
               | pages and visuals compliant would have to be redone after
               | converting to raster.
        
               | dredmorbius wrote:
               | Given issues with fully-electronic conversion, passing
               | through a paper phase tends to guard against foul-ups.
               | It's tangible and demonstrable. People ... take short-
               | cuts, which is why we're having this discussion.
        
         | iAMkenough wrote:
         | That'd be fun to make Section 508 compliant at mass scale.
        
         | notepad0x90 wrote:
         | a better approach is to convert them to jpeg/png. Then convert
         | that to raw BMP, and then share or print that.
         | 
         | A more modern approach for text documents would be to have an
         | LLM read and rephrase, and restructure everything without
         | preserving punctuation and spacing, using a simple encoding
         | like utf-8, and then use the technique above or just take
         | analog pictures of the monitor. The analog (film) part protects
         | against deepfakes and serves as proof if you need it (for the
         | source and final product alike).
         | 
         | There various solutions out there after the leaks that keep
         | happening where documents and confidential information is
         | served/staged in a way that will reveal the person with who it
         | is shared. Even if you copy paste the text into notepad and
         | save it in ascii format, it will reveal you. Off-the-shelf
         | printers are of course a big no-no.
         | 
         | If all else fails, that analog picture technique works best for
         | exfil, but the final thing you share will still track back to
         | you. I bet spies are back to using microfilms these days.
         | 
         | I only say all of that purely out of a fascination into the
         | subject and for the sake of discussion (think like a thief if
         | you want to catch one and all). Ultimately, you shouldn't share
         | private information with unauthorized parties, period. Personal
         | or otherwise. If you, like snowden, feel that all lawful means
         | are exhausted and that is your only option to address some
         | grievance, then don't assume any technique or planning will
         | protect you, if it isn't worth the risk of imprisonment, then
         | you shouldn't be doing it anyways. Assume you will be
         | imprisoned or worse.
        
       | londons_explore wrote:
       | So this is almost certainly redaction by the journalists?
       | 
       | It is disappointing they didn't mark those sections "redacted",
       | with an explanation of why.
       | 
       | It is also disappointing they didn't have enough technical
       | knowhow to at least take a screenshot and publish that rather
       | than the original PDF which presumably still contains all kinds
       | of info in the metadata.
        
         | libroot wrote:
         | Yes, the journalists did the redactions. The metadata
         | timestamps in one of the documents show that the versions were
         | created three weeks before the publication.
         | 
         | And to be honest, the journalists generally have done a great
         | work on pretty much in all the other published PDFs. We've went
         | through hundreds and hundreds of the published documents, and
         | these two documents were pretty much the only ones which had
         | metadata leak by a mistake revealing something significant
         | (there are other documents as well with metadata leaks/failed
         | redactions, but nothing huge). Our next part will be a
         | technical deep-dive on PDF forensic/metadata analysis we've
         | done.
        
           | DANmode wrote:
           | Great work, great comment.
           | 
           | Thank you.
        
       | layer8 wrote:
       | These PDFs apparently used the "incremental update" feature of
       | PDF, where edits to the document are merely appended to the
       | original file.
       | 
       | It's easy to extract the earlier versions, for example with a
       | plain text editor. Just search for lines starting with "%%EOF",
       | and truncate the file after that line. Voila, the resulting file
       | is the respective earlier PDF version.
       | 
       | (One exception is the first %%EOF in a so-called linearized PDF,
       | which marks a pseudo-revision that is only there for technical
       | reasons and isn't a valid PDF file by itself.)
        
         | ajross wrote:
         | It's hilarious the extent to which Adobe Systems's ridiculously
         | futile attempt to chase MS Word features ended up being the
         | single most productive espionage tool of the last quarter
         | century.
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | I don't think this was particularly modeled on MS Word. The
           | incremental update feature was introduced with PDF 1.2 in
           | 1996. It allows to quickly save changes without having to
           | rewrite the whole file, for example when annotating a PDF.
           | 
           | Incremental updates are also essential for PDF signatures,
           | since when you add a subsequent signature to a PDF, you
           | couldn't rewrite the file without breaking previous
           | signatures. Hence signatures are appended as incremental
           | updates.
        
             | cubefox wrote:
             | I'm pretty sure you can change various file formats without
             | rewriting the entire file and without using "incremental
             | updates".
        
               | mattzito wrote:
               | No, if you are going to change the structure of a
               | structured document that has been saved to disk, your
               | options are:
               | 
               | 1) Rewrite the file to disk 2) Append the new
               | data/metadata to the end of the existing file
               | 
               | I suppose you could pre-pad documents with empty blocks
               | and then go modify those in situ by binary editing the
               | file, but that sounds like a nightmare.
        
               | cubefox wrote:
               | Aren't there file systems that support data structures
               | which allow editing just part of the data, like linked
               | lists?
        
               | layer8 wrote:
               | Look at the C file API which most software is based on,
               | it simply doesn't allow it. Writing at a given file
               | position just overwrites existing content. There is no
               | way to insert or remove bytes in the middle.
               | 
               | Apart from that, file systems manage storage in larger
               | fixed-size blocks (commonly 4 KB). One block typically
               | links to the next block (if any) of the same file, but
               | that's about the extent of it.
        
               | formerly_proven wrote:
               | No. Well yes. On mainframes.
               | 
               | This is why "table of contents at the end" is such an
               | exceedingly common design choice.
        
               | PhilipRoman wrote:
               | Yeah there are, Linux supports parameters
               | FALLOC_FL_INSERT_RANGE and FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE for
               | fallocate(2). Like most fancy filesystem features, they
               | are not used by the vast majority of software because it
               | has to run on any filesystem so you'd always need to
               | maintain two implementations (and extensive test cases).
        
               | cubefox wrote:
               | Interesting that after decades of file system history,
               | this is still considered a "fancy feature", considering
               | that editing files is a pretty basic operation for a file
               | system. Though I assume there are reasons why this hasn't
               | become standard long ago.
        
               | layer8 wrote:
               | File systems aren't databases; they manage flat files,
               | not structured data. You also can't just insert/remove
               | random amounts of bytes in RAM. The considerations here
               | are actually quite similar, like fragmentation. If you
               | make a hundred small edits to a file, you might end up
               | with the file taking up ten times as much space due to
               | fragmentation, and then you'd need the file system to do
               | some sort of defragmentation pass to rewrite the file
               | more contiguously again.
               | 
               | In addition, it's generally nontrivial for a program to
               | map changes to an in-memory object structure back to
               | surgical edits of a flat file. It's much easier to always
               | just serialize the whole thing, or if the file format
               | allows it, appending the serialized changes to the file.
        
               | PhilipRoman wrote:
               | Indeed, also userspace-level atomicity is important, so
               | you probably want to save a backup in case power goes out
               | at an unfortunate moment. And since you already need to
               | have a backup, might as well go for a full rewrite +
               | rename combo.
        
               | formerly_proven wrote:
               | What this does on typical extent-based file systems is
               | split the extent of the file at the given location (which
               | means these operations can only be done with cluster
               | granularity) and then insert a third extent. i.e. calling
               | INSERT_RANGE once will give you a file with at least
               | three extents (fragments). This, plus the mkfs-options-
               | dependent alignment requirements, makes it really quite
               | uninteresting for broad use in a similar fashion as
               | O_DIRECT is uninteresting.
        
               | layer8 wrote:
               | You can't insert data into the middle of a file (or
               | remove portions from the middle of a file) without either
               | rewriting it completely, or at least rewriting everything
               | after the insertion point; the latter requires holding
               | everything after the insertion point in memory (or
               | writing it out to another file first, then reading it in
               | and writing it out again).
               | 
               | PDF is designed to not require holding the complete file
               | in memory. (PDF viewers can display PDFs larger than
               | available memory, as long as the currently displayed page
               | and associated metadata fits in memory. Similar for
               | editing.)
        
               | maweki wrote:
               | While tedious, you can do the rewrite block-wise from the
               | insertion point and only store a an additional block's
               | worth of the rest (or twice as much as you inserted)
               | 
               | ABCDE, to insert 1 after C: store D, overwrite D with 1,
               | store E, overwrite E with D, write E.
        
               | bahmboo wrote:
               | This was 1996. A typical computer had tens of megabytes
               | of memory with throughput a fraction of what we have
               | today. Appending an element instead of reading, parsing,
               | inserting and validating the entire document is a better
               | solution in so many ways. That people doing redactions
               | don't understand the technology is a separate problem.
               | The context matters.
        
             | ajross wrote:
             | PDF files are for storing fixed (!!) output of
             | printed/printable material. That's where the format's roots
             | are via Postscript, it's where the format found its main
             | success in document storage, and it's the metaphor everyone
             | has in mind when using the format.
             | 
             | PDFs don't change. PDFs are what they look like.
             | 
             | Except they aren't, because Adobe wanted to be able to
             | (ahem) "annotate" them, or "save changes" to them. And
             | Adobe wanted this because they wanted to sell Acrobat to
             | people who would otherwise be using MS Word for these
             | purposes.
             | 
             | And in so doing, Adobe broke the fundamental design
             | paradigm of the format. And that has had (and continues to
             | have, to hilarious effect) continuing security impact for
             | the data that gets stored in this terrible format.
        
               | detourdog wrote:
               | When Acrobat came out cross platform was not common.
               | Being able to publish a document that could be opened on
               | multiple platforms was a big advantage. I was using it to
               | distribute technical specifications in the mid 90's.
               | Different pages of these specifications came from,
               | Filemaker, Excel, Word, Mini-Cad, Photoshop, Illustrator,
               | and probably other applications as well. We would combine
               | these into a single PDF file. This simplified version
               | control. This also meant that bidders could not edit the
               | specifications.
               | 
               | None of that could be accomplished with Word alone. I
               | think you are underestimating the qualities of PDF for
               | distribution of complex documents.
        
         | theturtletalks wrote:
         | New OSINT skill unlocked
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | I see an interesting parallel to how people think about
           | captured encrypted data, and how long that encryption needs
           | to be effective for until technology catches up and can
           | decrypt (by which point, hopefully the decrypted data is
           | worthless). If all of these documents are stored in durable
           | archives, future methodologies may arrive to extract value or
           | intelligence not originally available at the time of capture
           | and disclosure.
        
             | theturtletalks wrote:
             | > If all of these documents are stored in durable archives,
             | future methodologies may arrive to extract value or
             | intelligence not originally available at the time of
             | capture and disclosure.
             | 
             | I recently learned that some people improve or brush up on
             | their OSINT skills by trying to find missing people!
        
       | c-c-c-c-c wrote:
       | > We contacted Ryan Gallagher, the journalist who led both
       | investigations, to ask about the editorial decision to remove
       | these sections. After more than a week, we have not received a
       | response.
       | 
       | Hopefully we'll hear something now that the Christmas holidays
       | are over.
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | Why are the journalists redacting the docs? That's incredibly
         | puzzling.
         | 
         | Is there something in here so damaging that they refuse to
         | publish it?
         | 
         | Did the government tell them they'd be in trouble if they
         | published it?
         | 
         | Are the journalists the only ones with access to the raw files?
        
           | nacozarina wrote:
           | Traditionally an editor would be obligated to review the
           | material and redact info that could be harmful to others. The
           | publisher has distinct liability independent of govt opinion.
        
       | tolerance wrote:
       | How much of this research and review is hands-on and how much of
       | it is-- _ahem_ --machine assisted?
        
         | rendx wrote:
         | Are you asking how much was done with pen and paper, and how
         | much of it was done on a computer, i.e. machine assisted? Where
         | do you draw the line? How is "hands-on" in contrast to
         | anything? Is it only "hands-on" when you don't use any tool to
         | assist you?
         | 
         | I _suspect_ you 're inquiring about the use of LLMs, and about
         | that I wonder: Why does it matter? Why are you asking?
        
           | Ylpertnodi wrote:
           | > Why does it matter? Why are you asking?
           | 
           | Answer the question?
        
             | rendx wrote:
             | Are you confusing me with the authors, or why would you
             | think I could? And I'm asking 'tolerance' to clarify their
             | question, which means I wouldn't be able to answer it even
             | if I had the knowledge they were after, since I don't
             | understand what they're asking.
        
           | tolerance wrote:
           | First thanks for taking my question seriously and not as just
           | a rib and asking a lot of questions in return that I want to
           | consider myself.
           | 
           | By "hands-on" I'm asking whether the provided insight is the
           | product of human intellection. Experienced, capable and
           | qualified. Or at least an _earnest_ attempt at thinking about
           | something and explaining the discoveries in the ways that
           | thinking was done before ChatGPT. For some reason I find
           | myself using phrases involving the hands (etc. hands-on,
           | handmade, hand-spun) as a metaphor for work done without the
           | use of LLMs.
           | 
           | I emphasize insight because I feel like the series of work on
           | the Snowden documents by libroot is wanting in that. I
           | expressed as much the last time their writing hit the front
           | page: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46236672>.
           | 
           | These are summaries. I don't think that it yields information
           | that can't otherwise be pointed out and made mention of by
           | others; presumably known and reputable. With as high-profile
           | of an event that this is I'd expect someone covering it
           | almost 16 years later to tell us beyond what when judged on
           | the merit of its import amounts to a motivated section of the
           | 'Snowden disclosures' Wikipedia entry.
           | 
           | The discussion that this series invites typically is centered
           | around people's thoughts about the story of the Snowden
           | documents in general, and in this case exchanges about
           | technical aspects like how PDF documents work and can be
           | manipulated in general. The one comment that I feel addresses
           | the actual tension embedded in the article--"Who edited the
           | documents?"--leads to accusations that the documents were
           | tampered with by the media:
           | <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46566372>. I don't
           | think that that's an implausible claim but I find issue with
           | it being made with such confidence by the anonymous source
           | behind the investigations (I'm withholding ironically putting
           | "investigations" in...nevermind).
           | 
           | If the author actually provided something that advanced to
           | the reader _why_ this information is significant, _what_ to
           | do with or think about it and _how_ they came about
           | discovering the answers to the aforementioned  'why' and
           | 'what' and additionally _why_ they're word ought to matter to
           | us at all, I 'd be less inclined to speculate that this is
           | just someone _vibe sleuthing_ their way through documents
           | that on the surface are only significant to the public as the
           | claim  "the government is spying on you" is.
           | 
           | This particular post uncovers some nice information. It's a
           | great find. I'm in no position to investigate whether it was
           | already known. But what are we supposed to learn from it
           | aside from "one of the documents were changed before it was
           | made public". What's significant about the redaction? Is Ryan
           | Gallagher responsible? Or does he know who is. Is he at all
           | obliged to explain this to a presumably anonymous inquirer?
           | Or is it now the duty of the public to expect an explanation
           | as affected by said anonymous inquirer?
           | 
           | Remember when believing that the government was rife with
           | pedophiles automatically associated you with horn-helmet-
           | wearing insurrectionists?
        
       | pseudosavant wrote:
       | In addition to the print paper and scan approach, I do wonder how
       | effective it would be to "Print to XPS" and then "print" that
       | into a PDF.
        
       | bawolff wrote:
       | Its crazy this is just being discovered now.
        
         | chatmasta wrote:
         | I wonder if it's because of all the attention on the Epstein
         | PDF files.
        
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