[HN Gopher] How your high school affects your chances of UC Admi...
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       How your high school affects your chances of UC Admission
        
       Author : mutator
       Score  : 43 points
       Date   : 2026-01-08 06:04 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (sfeducation.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (sfeducation.substack.com)
        
       | chaostheory wrote:
       | I thought this was old news. US universities have hard quotas per
       | high school, so you'll have better chances of admission if you
       | attend a poor performing school.
        
         | rahimnathwani wrote:
         | The article makes a more extreme claim: that quotas are not
         | equal per school, but differ based on LCFF+ status.
        
         | apparent wrote:
         | The charts that show changes over time reveal that it is not
         | old news. The change has been happening for a couple years, but
         | before the last year or so it would have been impossible to
         | show that it was a trend, not just a blip. And of course the
         | UCSD faculty report on remedial math shined a spotlight on the
         | issue.
        
       | AndrewKemendo wrote:
       | This is super interesting because I have kids who are trying to
       | apply for the UC system.
       | 
       | However nothing in this series mentioned anything about out-of-
       | state admission so I'm curious if there's any data about that.
        
         | Mountain_Skies wrote:
         | Not relevant for UC schools but flagship tier state schools
         | love being able to say they have students from all 50 states so
         | if you're from Wyoming, getting a scholarship to somewhere like
         | South Carolina or Maine is going to be relatively easy.
        
       | beckford wrote:
       | > One reason is that far more of their students actually applied
       | than would be expected.
       | 
       | This sentence is buried midway through the article. It would be
       | good for a future post to expand on this ... how much is
       | explained by students simply applying more frequently to their
       | local schools. This explanation was the only plausible
       | explanation in the article I saw answer "why".
        
         | w10-1 wrote:
         | > students simply applying more frequently to their local
         | schools
         | 
         | Cheaper to live at home nowadays
        
       | ransom1538 wrote:
       | I knew this secret early on. The better your high school - the
       | lower your odds of going to UC.
        
         | anon291 wrote:
         | I figured it out intuitively early on as well.
        
       | ssttoo wrote:
       | There's the weird incentive for schools to appear selective.
       | That's why UCSD would rather reject great candidates because
       | chances are they'll go to the likes of Harvard. Why accept
       | candidates that will ultimately go elsewhere? Better to be the
       | dumper than the dumpee and improve your rankings. It's awful.
        
         | Aurornis wrote:
         | It's not about dumpee or dumper or rankings games.
         | 
         | Admissions has to target a fixed number of students each year,
         | plus or minus. Students have to decide where to attend in a
         | narrow window. If you accept a lot of students who are unlikely
         | to attend then you would undershoot your admissions target and
         | have to try to convince students to attend in later rounds of
         | admission, but that's too late because they've already decided
         | to go somewhere else.
        
           | nerdsniper wrote:
           | If the acceptance rate wasn't being gamed, they could accept
           | a lot more of the top candidates - they would have years of
           | statistical data knowing that only x% of those top students
           | will commit.
           | 
           | It's not really a risk to overaccept if you know what % will
           | commit.
        
         | aleph_minus_one wrote:
         | > Why accept candidates that will ultimately go elsewhere?
         | 
         | Idea: When you apply for a college, you have to prepay for the
         | first semester. If you get admitted, you have already paid for
         | the first semester. If you get rejected, you get this advance
         | payment back. On the other hand, if you get admitted, but
         | decide to go somewhere else, you loose money.
         | 
         | This should give the university a strong incentive not to
         | reject strong candidates that will go somewhere else - quite
         | the opposite: if you admit such a candidate, but the candidate
         | goes somewhere else, the university earns even more (the
         | semester fee without having to provide any service for this
         | money).
        
       | renewiltord wrote:
       | I read the book _SAT Wars_ and came away with a horrifying
       | takeaway: admissions programs in US universities are creative
       | enterprises for the person involved. One of them talks about
       | "crafting a class".
       | 
       | Getting into many of these places is a question of playing into
       | your admissions officer's biases. Knowing that they're mostly
       | liberal voters, often female, and nowadays more likely to be
       | childless it's presumably important to match that person's
       | energy.
       | 
       | Someone who would otherwise be writing romance novels is now
       | picking students. Hence the infamous essay of the accepted
       | student that went "Black Lives Matter" x100
       | 
       | https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-39492187
        
         | flufluflufluffy wrote:
         | It's always been this way; previously we just had to play to
         | the old white men's biases.
        
           | cyberax wrote:
           | Some other countries just use test scores and exam results.
        
             | anon291 wrote:
             | I mean contrary to the comment above this is how American
             | universities used to be. They had standing exams... Show up
             | on admission day, take a test, highest scores get
             | admission. Easy
        
             | smelendez wrote:
             | That's not unbiased though. You still have the question of
             | what's tested and how it's graded.
        
           | smelendez wrote:
           | Yeah, there's really no way around it when you have more
           | qualified students than slots, unless you just mark each
           | applicant as qualified or not and run a lottery.
           | 
           | But they do have to "craft a class" to some extent. An
           | obvious example is athletic recruiting, but some schools are
           | consciously thinking about populating other extracurriculars,
           | like marching bands or orchestras.
           | 
           | And you also don't want a class that's all computer science
           | majors or zero philosophy majors. I imagine they consider
           | other factors as well. The admissions staff may be liberal,
           | but I'm guessing at most schools they deliberately admit some
           | outspoken conservatives.
        
             | umanwizard wrote:
             | No they don't "have" to do any of this as evidenced by the
             | fact that the US is the only country where it happens. In
             | most countries it would (rightly) be considered strange to
             | care how good someone is at sports or marching band when
             | evaluating their ability to study academic subjects (the
             | actual purpose of a university).
        
               | its_ethan wrote:
               | That feels like a fairly narrow view of what the purpose
               | of a university is.
               | 
               | Look at the charter of any university and they do _not_
               | just say:  "create students who excel in their academic
               | subject of choice".
               | 
               | The vast, vast majority of higher education mission
               | statements/charters include goals like: "helping students
               | develop their identity", "pursuing meaning",
               | "strengthening community", "sharing perspectives",
               | "helping others", etc. etc. etc.
               | 
               | Things like "can this person work on as a team (did they
               | play sports?)" or "have they been a part of a community
               | (like marching band?)" are hugely important for building
               | a community at the university that can successfully
               | achieve those mission statements.
        
               | umanwizard wrote:
               | > Look at the charter of any university
               | 
               |  _Any_ university in the world? Or any university in the
               | very idiosyncratic US system?
               | 
               | Again, nobody else does stuff like this, and their
               | universities seem to be working fine.
        
           | umanwizard wrote:
           | Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere. Lots of places just sort
           | by grades or test scores. Part of the reason for the weird US
           | system is the low ceiling: school is relatively easy compared
           | to developed countries, so there are way too many people with
           | identical scores at the top.
        
         | RobRivera wrote:
         | From School Ties' Brendan Frasiers character "Youre going to
         | use me for football, Im going to use you to get into Harvard"
         | 
         | Competitive admission hasn't really changed by nature
        
       | SilverElfin wrote:
       | I thought the UC system was supposed to admit students based
       | strictly on their GPA and test scores to avoid weird types of
       | admission discrimination? Is that not the case? The article
       | mentions UCSD going "test blind" as a turning point for weighing
       | the high school someone attended heavily.
        
         | mikeryan wrote:
         | No. They're no longer allowed to use race but can, and still
         | consider a wide range of factors.
         | 
         | They have to - it's likely they have far more applicants with
         | near perfect GPA/Test score combos then they have spots.
         | (Noting that your GPA gets fuzzy once it's over a 4.0 since
         | that "extra" is going to be somewhat school and school system
         | dependent)
         | 
         | Since each kid likely applies to multiple schools the process
         | would also be extremely broken if it worked the way you suggest
         | since the same cohort of kids would all be accepted to multiple
         | schools and the schools would then have to backfill from a
         | alternate list - which would also be the same cohort of kids...
        
         | apparent wrote:
         | UC is indeed "test blind" and until this changes, their
         | admissions system will remain fucked.
        
       | kccqzy wrote:
       | > The opaqueness of the whole process is what I find most
       | objectionable.
       | 
       | I also find that objectionable. However, recalling my own college
       | admission process, I think we have collectively determined that
       | this opaqueness is basically working as intended. We are now
       | treating it as a rite passage that qualified high school students
       | can be mysteriously rejected.
       | 
       | I applied to 6 colleges (not counting those outside the United
       | States), which would be considered an extremely low number today.
       | I have colleagues who have kids applying to colleges right now so
       | I know. Everyone is applying to more colleges just to counteract
       | these seemingly random rejections.
        
         | Aurornis wrote:
         | It's an arms race. Now that students are encourage to apply to
         | huge numbers of universities for safety, the universities are
         | forced to accept a smaller percentage of applicants to avoid
         | overcommitting.
         | 
         | So student, parents, and counselors see this and tell everyone
         | to apply to even more colleges and the cycle continues.
        
           | cherryteastain wrote:
           | UK caps applications to 5 to combat this exact problem.
        
         | lateforwork wrote:
         | The opaqueness is unique to USA and is thanks to "holistic
         | reviews", which is a highly questionable practice.
         | 
         | Elite-College Admissions Were Built to Protect Privilege
         | https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/histor...
         | 
         | The new holistic admissions policy worked as intended,
         | successfully suppressing Jewish admissions.
         | https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit...
         | 
         | The 'holistic' admissions lie - The Daily Californian
         | https://www.dailycal.org/2012/10/01/the-holistic-admissions-...
         | 
         | The False Promise of 'Holistic' College Admissions - The
         | Atlantic
         | https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/12/the-fa...
         | 
         | Lifting the Veil on the Holistic Process at the University of
         | California, Berkeley
         | https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-...
        
         | blindriver wrote:
         | Every school has increased tuition without substantially
         | increasing the number of students. What you are seeing is that
         | schools are getting thousands of students that are exactly the
         | same which is why admissions is turning into a lottery system.
         | It's basically like a CPU maxed out at 100%. There's nothing
         | you can do except build more schools and increase the number of
         | students otherwise it will continue to be a lottery.
        
       | lateforwork wrote:
       | See: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-12/covid-
       | co...
       | 
       | Excerpts:
       | 
       | UC admissions directors stressed that they evaluated students in
       | the context of their own schools and communities to assess how
       | much they challenged themselves and took advantage of available
       | opportunities. A student who took all six AP classes offered at
       | her school might be more impressive than the one who took six at
       | a school that offered twice as many.
       | 
       | A campus might admit a student with a 4.0 GPA who ranked at the
       | top of an underserved school over one with a higher GPA but lower
       | class rank at a more high-achieving school.
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | That is, they are biased towards _top_ performers, not just
         | high performers, even if one student 's "merely high" is
         | formally higher than the ceiling the other student hit.
         | 
         | (The "winning" strategy then is to move to an underserved high
         | school after an elite middle school, and hit the ceiling.)
        
           | xnyan wrote:
           | You may be joking, but I have several high achieving peers
           | whose families did this with good results. The choice was:
           | did they want to be in the best high school with the highest
           | level of competition, or did they want to go to an OK school
           | that had good magnet programs and less competition. my sample
           | size is only about three, but it worked out well for them.
        
           | SR2Z wrote:
           | Once upon a time, the SAT an IQ test, and it was a real
           | achievement to score a 1600. That achievement has been
           | hollowed out in tandem with the value of most college
           | degrees.
           | 
           | We know how to test for merit. The greatest tragedy in this
           | college admissions racket isn't the shadowy affirmative
           | action policies, the mountains of student loan debt, or the
           | entire college admission-industrial complex that's sprung up.
           | 
           | It's that even the tools we've used to use to measure if
           | someone was _ready_ for college have been annihilated.
        
             | hackyhacky wrote:
             | The SAT was never an IQ test, and it certainly doesn't
             | measure "merit", whatever that is. It's a Scholastic
             | Aptitude Test, and it isn't particularly good at that
             | either.
             | 
             | If we had a _good_ "test for merit" then we could directly
             | assign people to their roles and ignore their actual
             | performance.
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _It 's a Scholastic Aptitude Test, and it isn't
               | particularly good at that either_
               | 
               | It's a pretty good measure for how a student will do in
               | their first year in college.
        
           | apparent wrote:
           | One of the charts in TFA shows a discontinuity in admissions
           | rate around 75% UPP. This means that if you send your kid to
           | a HS that is underserved when you enroll, but drops below the
           | critical 75% threshold because too many other families are
           | doing the same, then the school could fall out of the strong-
           | benefit category.
           | 
           | The kid would still have a better chance than if he applied
           | from a high-performing school, but it wouldn't be as much of
           | an advantage.
           | 
           | Socially, I'm guessing the kid could face some challenges
           | because (1) other high performing students might not like him
           | because he's a curve-breaker, (2) teachers would know what
           | the family was up to and could view it as distasteful, and
           | (3) if the student went to UCSD or another school where this
           | is a well-known hack, there could be stigma for having gamed
           | the system/being less-smart.
        
         | SilverElfin wrote:
         | This is a terrible system because it forces students and
         | parents to start playing all kinds of games to navigate a non
         | transparent process for admissions. What now? Are parents going
         | to send their kids to good schools until it is time to apply to
         | colleges? And then they are going to switch to the best school
         | for applications?
        
           | lateforwork wrote:
           | Right, up until middle school send kids to the best school,
           | then for high school move to an area with poor schools.
        
             | crab_galaxy wrote:
             | Maybe they can bring their resources with them too, and the
             | poor schools can have things like lead paint remediation,
             | honors classes, and extra curricular activities.
             | 
             | I like this idea!
        
               | Mountain_Skies wrote:
               | Resources are mainly property taxes. Unless they're
               | building a new house whose value is significantly greater
               | than the median for the area, families gaming the system
               | aren't likely to have much of a lasting impact on the
               | district.
        
               | crab_galaxy wrote:
               | Yeah you're right. However, resource gaps can be filled
               | by things like volunteer librarians, teacher
               | wishlists/donations, field trips, strong PTAs, etc..
               | 
               | This is common in my city. It's a big underfunded school
               | district with a handful of coveted, well supported
               | schools. I'm assuming it happens elsewhere in America
               | with the success of platforms like donors choose.
        
         | derektank wrote:
         | They should just make this explicit, like the UT system does.
         | The top X% of students are admitted automatically from each
         | school.
        
           | john-h-k wrote:
           | This seems terrible incentives. You are now in a purely
           | adversarial relationship with your peers and hurting them
           | helps you
        
             | Mountain_Skies wrote:
             | It's not unusual for families to change their school
             | district so their kid can play for a better sports program
             | and of course it's extremely common for families to want to
             | live in the best district for education quality, but maybe
             | some are now incentivized to move into a district with
             | lesser competition for the top spots.
        
             | bradchris wrote:
             | Texan here. There's still ways to get in if you don't make
             | the top X% of your class (the percentage is shrinking every
             | year as the school climbs up the rankings and more people
             | want to go... I think it's near top-4% now? It used to be
             | top 15% I recall), and many of those high achievers go onto
             | other out of state schools, so it's in the interest of UT
             | system to offer automatic admission to the top achievers
             | from across the state.
             | 
             | Just because the top X% is guaranteed admission, that does
             | not mean all (or even most) of the school is from the top
             | X%.
        
               | dustincoates wrote:
               | I believe it's only UT Austin that's shrunk the
               | percentage. All of the other public universities are
               | still at the original top 10%.
        
             | terribleidea wrote:
             | How much control can your classmates have over your own
             | GPA? What percentage of 'control' over your GPA is up to
             | you vs. your teachers, parents, classmates, and everyone
             | else? I put those in order intentionally, as I think your
             | classmates are below teachers and parents on the hierarchy.
        
             | wyldfire wrote:
             | This kind of competition happens in other areas of academic
             | pursuits too. Is that strictly a bad thing?
             | 
             | The bad thing about UT's policy is that it encourages well-
             | off students to move to a less-competitive school district
             | (usually rural) in order to improve their chances.
        
             | LarsDu88 wrote:
             | Not only that, but high performers are incentivised to move
             | to worse schools.
             | 
             | It may actually improve mean outcomes, but harm societal
             | outcomes, as the scientific impact of educated individuals
             | may tend to be power law distributed (e.g. the most
             | important breakthroughs come from a small sector of the
             | population with wildly disproportionate impact)
        
               | SoylentGreenGPT wrote:
               | What breakthroughs are coming from high school students?
        
               | gizmo686 wrote:
               | The bottleneck on research is funding. We have a glut of
               | students wanting to go into research who don't because of
               | how competitive the field is. We then have researchers
               | constantly leaving the field for the same reason.
        
             | lostmsu wrote:
             | It is hard to hurt someone when their score is a
             | standardized test.
        
               | apparent wrote:
               | UCs don't consider standardized tests.
        
               | lostmsu wrote:
               | IMO they'll roll back. It was a bad decision, and a few
               | unis already rolled back.
        
               | apparent wrote:
               | Many other schools have rolled back their temporary
               | suspensions of SAT-optional/blindness, but UC made a
               | decision that was permanent. And when they made the
               | decision, it was over the objection of the UC faculty
               | recommendation. They might roll it back, but I'm not
               | holding my breath.
        
           | blindriver wrote:
           | UCs already guarantee this to the top % of students in every
           | school.
        
           | tzs wrote:
           | California has that. The top 9% from each high school and the
           | top 9% statewide are guaranteed UC admission. This does not
           | guarantee admission to any specific campus, so if you are
           | only interested in say Berkeley or UCLA you might get
           | admitted but UC will find you a place at some campus.
        
           | huhkerrf wrote:
           | It's all publicly funded universities in Texas, not just the
           | UT system.
           | 
           | In other words: you've just pissed off a lot of Aggies
           | grouping them in with, ahem, tu.
        
         | torginus wrote:
         | Honestly, I don't know how do you even compare students with
         | different backgrounds against each other.
         | 
         | That's why standardized testing is good - it gives everyone the
         | same chance to excel.
        
           | dmoy wrote:
           | > it gives everyone the same chance to excel.
           | 
           | How does the existence of standardized testing give everyone
           | the same chance? As an extremely over-exaggerated example
           | example, someone whose home study time is disrupted
           | frequently by gunfire outside is probably not getting the
           | same chance as someone who lives on a 20 acre estate with
           | private tutors for every subject.
        
             | blindriver wrote:
             | The schools that went test-optional already have switched
             | back because this actually gives lower income students the
             | best chance to distinguish themselves. The narrative that
             | lower income students with less opportunities would benefit
             | from not submitting SATs turned out to be false.
        
             | lostmsu wrote:
             | Ear plugs are under $5. If you could not think of that over
             | years, you're not gonna be able to score well in SAT for
             | different reasons.
        
             | pepperball wrote:
             | Most likely the people living somewhere continuously with
             | gunfire wasn't ever going to succeed academically either
             | way. There are exceptions of course.
             | 
             | You'd have to basically rebirth and resocialize them in a
             | different culture entirely.
             | 
             | Far too many people already have been educated past their
             | natural state and it's going to get ugly.
        
             | ThrowawayR2 wrote:
             | " _People who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt
             | those who are doing it_ " -Bernard Shaw
             | 
             | I'm pretty tired of progressives insisting that people who
             | grew up in poverty but were able to improve our lot in life
             | through study, doing well on grades, and, yes, on
             | standardized tests, like me, do not exist.
        
             | alex43578 wrote:
             | How does the existence of a standard hoop height in the NBA
             | give everyone the same chance to play? Shorter players
             | should get lower hoops, and slower runners should get
             | electric scooters. That way, everyone can _appear_ to be
             | equally capable.
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | > _someone whose home study time is disrupted frequently by
             | gunfire outside is probably not getting the same chance as
             | someone who lives on a 20 acre estate with private tutors
             | for every subject_
             | 
             | Is there any world in which the first student, struggling
             | in that context, treads water at a UC?
             | 
             | I used to volunteer to tutor high-school aged students in
             | New York. I gave up and moved to grade schoolers. A refugee
             | who will take the SAT in six months and wants to go to
             | college, but is struggling with basic reading comprehension
             | and symbolic math is just not going to do well in college
             | in a year.
             | 
             | Note: the student who excels in that first setting should
             | absolutely be admitted. But they're, by definition, already
             | excelling.
        
         | galkk wrote:
         | > A student who took all six AP classes offered at her school
         | might be more impressive than the one who took six at a school
         | that offered twice as many.
         | 
         | Damn, this is as stupid as it gets.
        
           | gopher_space wrote:
           | The students operating at this level are identical. There's
           | no practical difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 GPA when
           | comparing students from different schools.
        
       | alephnerd wrote:
       | Conversely, the correlation between university eliteness and
       | occupational eliteness is weakening.
       | 
       | Who is more elite - a new grad who has founded a YC backed
       | startup who attended UIUC (an elite and selective CS program at a
       | university that is not viewed as prestigious by society at large)
       | _or_ a Yale grad working on the Hill earning $50k?
       | 
       | As of today, all UCs are viewed similarly from a tech hiring
       | practice perspective, though there is a bit of a geographic bias
       | helping UC Berkeley, but this same bias also helps much less
       | selective and less socially prestigious SJSU.
        
         | blindriver wrote:
         | UC Riverside, UC Merced etc are not viewed similarly to UCLA or
         | UCB.
        
           | alephnerd wrote:
           | It's treated as "good enough", and now the the second
           | generation of SWEs, PMs, and AEs are getting hired I've seen
           | their parents (a large number of whom are now mid-level
           | leadership in most tech companies here in the Bay)
           | increasingly lobby to include these "lower tier" UCs to the
           | recruiting pool.
           | 
           | My point is, for the younger generation a university's
           | societal eliteness just isn't a strong predictor for success,
           | and I strongly believe data will back up this observation
           | within the next decade (there's usually a 5-7 year delay on
           | data gathering in the social sciences, eg. Data from 2018-22
           | is only now starting to be analyzed).
        
         | ajoseps wrote:
         | idk man, I've always thought UIUC was pretty selective,
         | especially for their EE and CS programs. I'm also 10+ years out
         | from college applications so maybe things have changed.
        
       | djoldman wrote:
       | Looks like the data is available here:
       | 
       | https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-...
       | 
       | I'm surprised to see this granularity (# of
       | applicants/admitted/enrolled to a college broken out by high
       | school).
        
       | danans wrote:
       | > Nevertheless, the average private school applicant had only a
       | 18.3% chance of admission, well below the 25.8% average for
       | public school applicants.
       | 
       | As a parent of a student in a private school, this is how it
       | should be. For the amount of support and resources that private
       | school students receive vs their public school peers, the
       | standards should be higher. My child understands this, and knows
       | that they will have to achieve more to get admission to a UC than
       | a kid at a low income public school.
       | 
       | There should be exceptions, for example: very low SES student
       | attending a private school on scholarship - although such
       | students are usually exceptional or else they would not have
       | qualified for private school scholarship.
       | 
       | The working class shouldn't be subsidizing the higher education
       | of the wealthy.
        
         | qwerpy wrote:
         | This seems backwards to me. Colleges should be prioritizing
         | strong students for admission and nothing else. Our country
         | needs the best engineers and doctors. Colleges are a scarce,
         | valuable resource and should be reserved for the best students,
         | regardless of why they are the best students.
        
           | addaon wrote:
           | > This seems backwards to me. Colleges should be prioritizing
           | strong students for admission and nothing else. Our country
           | needs the best engineers and doctors. Colleges are a scarce,
           | valuable resource and should be reserved for the best
           | students, regardless of why they are the best students.
           | 
           | It seems unlikely that Americans would be so massively
           | overrepresented in American colleges under this policy...
        
           | kccqzy wrote:
           | > Colleges should be prioritizing strong students
           | 
           | I agree with this, but I think you didn't get the point. The
           | point is, the way we measure strength has to be considered in
           | light of the environment. If a student is in a high school
           | where the average strength is 100, and the student has
           | achieved a strength of 200, it shows that the student has
           | tenacity and grit and drive. Whereas another student might be
           | in a high school where the average strength is 200 and has a
           | strength of 200, and this shows that the student is content
           | to be just average. After admission, the first student has a
           | much higher potential of outperforming the average freshman.
           | The first student's strength could very well be limited by
           | the amount of resources available in this high school, and
           | not by his/her innate ability.
           | 
           | At least, this is what is supposed to happen, if you believe
           | the UC admission officers.
        
             | qwerpy wrote:
             | I understand that point and I still disagree with it. There
             | are objective, direct measurements of strength
             | (standardized tests, performance at state/nation-wide
             | academic competitions, admissions essays), and we don't
             | need to resort to this more flimsy chain of subjective
             | comparisons that use "relative strength of student within
             | school" and "relative strength of school across all
             | schools".
        
             | apparent wrote:
             | This doesn't describe what UC is doing, however. LCFF is
             | for (1) kids in foster care, (2) English learners, and (3)
             | low income. If you go to a school that has lots of these
             | kids, but you yourself do not have one of these
             | disadvantages, then it doesn't mean that you've risen up
             | out of poverty to achieve relative greatness. It means that
             | you're not an immigrant/poor, but you go to school with a
             | lot of such students. And in the age of grade inflation,
             | getting good grades at a school with lots of low-performing
             | kids is especially easy.
        
         | apparent wrote:
         | You seem to be falsely equating private schools with "the
         | wealthy" and public schools with "the working class". Plenty of
         | people are wealthy and send their kids to public schools. They
         | fund them via property taxes rather than tuition payments.
        
       | 999900000999 wrote:
       | Community colleges are the real heroes of California's higher
       | education.
       | 
       | Unless you get a full ride you probably should start at community
       | college. You can then transfer later and generally you'll have a
       | better variety to choose from.
       | 
       | The UC system is sorta weird though. Maybe the top 2 , UCLA and
       | Berkeley compete nationally. After that you're paying UC tuition
       | for an average school. Out of state that's around 50k, 16k in
       | state.
       | 
       | You then get an unholy fraken monster patch work of different
       | financial aid programs. Make over 160k as a family ? No aid for
       | you!
       | 
       | It's a different welfare cliff. Parents get a paper divorce, live
       | with the less affluent one, college is going to be free.
       | 
       | I'm still very very pissed I couldn't get my parents income info
       | and had to drop out. I was making around 100k when I came back to
       | finish. I paid out if pocket at a Cal State.
        
         | apparent wrote:
         | > Unless you get a full ride you probably should start at
         | community college. You can then transfer later and generally
         | you'll have a better variety to choose from.
         | 
         | This does not make sense if you (like most UC students) are in-
         | state. You're right that it's easier to get in as a CC
         | transfer, but you'll miss out on a lot of the bonding
         | experience that happens as freshmen. And if you want, you could
         | always transfer from one UC to another, if you're looking to
         | upgrade your diploma from Irvine to LA, for example. It's
         | probably worth it to have the better network of the freshmen
         | you met at Irvine rather than going to a CC in LA for two
         | years. It would be cheaper, but networks can be incredibly
         | valuable.
        
           | 999900000999 wrote:
           | Is that bonding experience worth another 12500$ a year ? CC
           | is about 1500$ in tuition for a full 30 units vs 14000$ at a
           | UC per year.
           | 
           | I made life long friends in community college.
           | 
           | Plus college doesn't work out for everyone, better to spend
           | 3000$ figuring that out over 28k.
           | 
           | If you pay your own way and go the absolute cheapest path,
           | your spending 3k at community college for 2 years and about
           | 14k for 2 years at a Cal State. 17k total.
           | 
           | Vs 14k a year at a UC and around 56k for all 4.
           | 
           | This really depends on your financial situation though. For a
           | lot of families this isn't a lot of money.
        
             | apparent wrote:
             | Yes, it very much depends on family circumstances. In some
             | families/communities, there is somewhat of a stigma to not
             | attending a 4-year college straight out of high school.
             | That will probably fade over time, but it is a reality for
             | some.
        
         | resumenext wrote:
         | Excellent point about CC's. The downside is that instructor
         | quality varies considerable both within and between CCs, and
         | many students drop out or are not provided with adequate
         | guidance in terms of GE requirements and transferability.
         | 
         | In terms of costs of UC other than Berkeley, (Davis, Cal Poly,
         | UCLA, etc...) 16k in current times is a great bargain
         | especially given the pipeline to grad school which is great
         | even at non-Berkeley UCs.
        
           | 999900000999 wrote:
           | I can only speak for my own experiences, but I found my
           | instructors at community college to be absolutely fantastic
           | and even better than the ones I had when I eventually
           | transferred to a UC. I had transferred to a UC first, ran out
           | of money and then I wrapped up at a cheaper CSU years later.
           | 
           | At a UC you're probably going to be interacting with teaching
           | assistants anyway.
           | 
           | I have to completely disagree with your last paragraph. No
           | one should be thinking grad school right after a B.A. Go and
           | see the world for a little bit. Excluding maybe law and
           | medicine.
           | 
           | Even then, I've seen this horribly backfire in families. The
           | kid is expected to do really well in college and then become
           | a doctor, the pressure is too much and they just spaz out.
           | 
           | Next thing you know your a college dropout couchsurfing
           | because your parents are threatening to send you back to the
           | old country for an arranged marriage.
        
       | sfblah wrote:
       | This is just doing DEI in a different way because it's
       | technically illegal. It's obvious what's going on here.
        
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