[HN Gopher] Open Infrastructure Map
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Open Infrastructure Map
        
       Author : efskap
       Score  : 408 points
       Date   : 2026-01-08 03:31 UTC (19 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (openinframap.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (openinframap.org)
        
       | efskap wrote:
       | I find this site so fascinating, seeing how all the massive power
       | lines are hooked up to far-away power plants and gradually have
       | their voltage stepped down as they connect to consumers. All the
       | undersea cables and pipelines I didn't know about.
        
         | lnsru wrote:
         | It's really interesting how perception of openness changes over
         | time. During cold war publishing this information would send
         | one directly to gulag.
        
           | budding2141 wrote:
           | Yeah, and it feels like we're sliding back the same way.
        
           | hommelix wrote:
           | With the recent blackout in Berlin, I've heard requests to
           | hide these information.
        
             | com wrote:
             | Because obscurity works against insider threats and OSint
             | /s
        
           | gehsty wrote:
           | It's a double edged sword - secrecy leads to accidental
           | damage by fishermen & anchors, so generally you want your
           | cables and pipes charted.
           | 
           | There are cables not on this map that are uncharted for
           | things like acoustic monitoring & finger printing of vessels.
        
             | lnsru wrote:
             | I have license for boat and use nautical maps. They show me
             | a cable, but not the hierarchy of the infrastructure. I see
             | a cable, but can't evaluate if half of town stays without
             | electricity or only an island with dozen houses if I damage
             | it.
             | 
             | However the available maps do not stop russian ships
             | regularly dropping anchors on European infrastructure in
             | Baltic see. Obviously charting them does not help. Maybe
             | they should stay secret at the end.
        
               | snickerer wrote:
               | You can hide the position of the cables from fishermen
               | and the public. But if someone knows where they are, it
               | is the KGB, I mean, FSB.
               | 
               | We should make information about infrastructure public.
               | There was a power outtage in Berlin, due to to an attack
               | aginst a 'secret' cable bridge. If the map of cables
               | would have been public, then the public may have had a
               | chance to realize that having no backup cable is a bad
               | idea for critical infrastructure.
        
               | holowoodman wrote:
               | There were backup cables. The bridge carried 5 cables,
               | redundancy configuration would have been 3+2 afaik. But
               | only for purposes of maintenance, not to protect against
               | hostile action. For that, one should have taken care to
               | not have all redundancies on the same bridge ;)
               | 
               | And in most environments, you cannot hide the location of
               | those cables. Either they are visible directly, like all
               | overhead power lines. No use in hiding those. And for the
               | underground ones, you could try to hide them. But every
               | backhoe operator will rightfully want a map of those
               | anyways, so the information will come out in some way.
               | 
               | The only environment where hiding this kind of
               | infrastructure would be possible is some state-does-
               | everything soviet-like police state. Where comrade
               | backhoe-operator wouldn't get a map, but he would get
               | accompanied by a secret police supervisor who would tell
               | him where to dig and where not to.
        
               | jotaen wrote:
               | The submission's map includes the affected area of the
               | power outage, so that info is already public, isn't it?
               | https://openinframap.org/#12.98/52.43214/13.26948
        
               | gehsty wrote:
               | Would you feel comfortable making a decision on putting
               | an anchor down on a cable if you knew it would only take
               | out a few hundred houses worth of power.
               | 
               | I would imagine that any body that issues you a license
               | should inform you to not anchor in proximity to cables,
               | regardless of size / spec etc. if you put an anchor down
               | on a charted cable, and the cable is where it should be,
               | I think you'd be responsible for the cost of damage.
        
               | lnsru wrote:
               | I anchor very carefully on the rocks or sandy seabed. I
               | don't anchor in seaweed areas and on pipes or cables.
               | Additional attention from local newspaper is not desired.
        
               | gehsty wrote:
               | So you don't need to know hierarchy, just avoid cables?
        
             | embedding-shape wrote:
             | > It's a double edged sword - secrecy leads to accidental
             | damage by fishermen & anchors, so generally you want your
             | cables and pipes charted.
             | 
             | Yeah, and the other edge of the sword is on display in the
             | Baltic Sea nowadays, where "fishermen" accidentally keep
             | dragging their anchors for miles across the sea bottom,
             | always somehow exactly where the communication cables are.
        
           | jillesvangurp wrote:
           | I saw a nice presentation by Michael Cruickshank with an
           | intelligence background that was using public geospatial data
           | like what this is based on to model how climate change would
           | affect power outages in an African city. In that case he was
           | trying to figure out where all the power infrastructure was
           | that would be affected in a flooding and then model network
           | effects to figure out which parts of the city would end up
           | being affected. Really interesting work.
           | 
           | Michael presented at the Berlin Geomob. His website has a
           | more general overview of what he does:
           | https://www.michaelcruickshank.me/recentwork. That does not
           | seem to include a lot of detail on what he presented.
           | Possibly because he is trying to be responsible here.
           | 
           | The security angle did come during the presentation. This is
           | not the type of information that a lot of governments would
           | want to make public but also something that could help them.
           | You can mine a lot of intelligence from public data. And his
           | approach of doing some kind of scenario modelling on top of
           | the open data actually is interesting. That's something that
           | can be used for good and for evil. And obviously something
           | that a lot of intelligence agencies are probably already
           | doing.
        
             | rdtsc wrote:
             | > You can mine a lot of intelligence from public data. And
             | his approach of doing some kind of scenario modelling on
             | top of the open data actually is interesting.
             | 
             | That's sort of how it happens in the intelligence world. A
             | bunch of analysts can look at open source data - news
             | snippets, public data sets etc, but once they analyze it
             | and distill to some conclusions it may become sensitive or
             | classified.
        
           | DataJunkie wrote:
           | I know I will never live to see a site like this that
           | documents all of the innards of airports. Airport layouts are
           | my special interest.
        
           | jh54 wrote:
           | In the EU all that data, including high res LiDAR data has to
           | be made publicly available by the responsible authorities.
           | also high res aerial imagery which with the lidar together
           | you can use to build a 3D model of the surface and ground of
           | military buildings/area in blender, because even that in many
           | cases is not excluded or censored. It's already used for
           | "criminal activities" by metal detectorists and grave robbers
           | a lot haha but it shouldn't be too hard for foreign
           | intelligence to render some maps for egoshooters from them to
           | train their soldiers for missions in specific locations
        
         | einpoklum wrote:
         | Me too. I particularly recommend looking at the wind farms East
         | of the UK and North of the Northern coast of Europe, and their
         | connections back to land by power lines. Not something you
         | think about when you imagine those seas looking at a regular
         | map.
         | 
         | https://openinframap.org/#5.48/54.077/2.676
        
           | bibelo wrote:
           | Amaze!
        
           | filcuk wrote:
           | First thing that caught my eye. Apparently the reason is to
           | make use of stronger, more consistent winds on open sea.
        
         | iszomer wrote:
         | Right? I didn't know there was a 130 MW (diesel) power plant on
         | an island connected and off the coast of Taiwan.
        
       | roschdal wrote:
       | This is a bad idea in terms of security in war
        
         | aquafox wrote:
         | Or a good one, forcing governments to have robust
         | infrastructure that this info isn't useful. Similar reasoning
         | as with security and open source software.
        
           | juahan wrote:
           | Yeah, and it's not like the enemy would take the information
           | from here, they already have it and likely even more
           | detailed. It is quite basic stuff to have when preparing to
           | defend (or attack).
        
         | Towaway69 wrote:
         | Berlin, Germany just had a blackout because a left from centre
         | organisation decided to set an electric exchange on fire. Right
         | over new years and at a very cold time of year.
         | 
         | Apparently the data on where the exchange was and how it would
         | affect the surrounding neighbourhoods was openly available. The
         | neighbourhoods affect were largely affluent.
         | 
         | It's probably also the reason why this is being reshared.
        
           | sam_lowry_ wrote:
           | So what? The benefits of openly sharing this info greatly
           | outweight the risks.
           | 
           | I heard multiple times that professionals in the energy
           | sector relied on shitty, difficult to obtain and incomplete
           | information until the open source revolution.
           | 
           | Soviet Union heavily edited publicly available maps, although
           | it had great cartography for the military-industrial complex.
           | And where it is now?
        
             | Towaway69 wrote:
             | So what?
             | 
             | Have I said that it's bad or good? I was just pointing out
             | that yes, apparently data like this does get used in for
             | bad things. I am not judging, as you seem to assume, I'm
             | pointing out.
             | 
             | It's a pity that others aren't as broad minded to consider
             | both or all sides of technology. Technology isn't always
             | automatically an improvement of the current situation. Yes
             | it might solve the obvious problem but there are also side
             | effects. Social media, for example, is a good demonstration
             | of a bunch of side effects that weren't intended.
             | 
             | And so it is with open infrastructure, it can have unwanted
             | side effects and we should be aware of those instead of
             | hand waving them away. Mitigation here is difficult: open
             | access and meshing up of data is important and should be
             | encouraged. Hiding this data away won't help.
        
               | antonvs wrote:
               | > Have I said that it's bad or good?
               | 
               | ...and then you go on to imply it has bad side effects.
               | But you haven't actually made that case. Do you really
               | believe that a hostile group would have difficulty
               | finding important infrastructure to attack without an
               | open infrastructure map?
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _Do you really believe that a hostile group would have
               | difficulty finding important infrastructure to attack
               | without an open infrastructure map?_
               | 
               | I honestly do. A large part of what protects open, free
               | societies is that the smartest people generally have
               | better things to do than blowing shit up. If you've ever
               | taken a close look at any heavy infrastructure, it should
               | strike you how easy it would be to break into and disable
               | (particularly if you aren't concerned about getting
               | caught).
               | 
               | On the balance, I still prefer these data being open. But
               | there probably is a domestic-terrorism risk that's
               | amplified.
        
               | misiek08 wrote:
               | If you are not interested in disrupting the grid then yes
               | - you implied it's bad. You only mentioned the bad sides
               | of such info being widely available.
               | 
               | And like already mentioned in more nested comments - it's
               | not difficult to get such info if you are determined
               | enough.
        
               | Towaway69 wrote:
               | I stated a fact - it really happened and it was so
               | communicated that the left-of-centre organisation
               | obtained their information online, your assumption that
               | I'm "implying it's bad" is in your head.
               | 
               | Facts are neutral.
        
           | antonvs wrote:
           | You can drive around an area you're interested in, or look at
           | satellite or aerial photos, to find these facilities.
           | "Security by obscurity" is no more useful here than it is in
           | software systems.
        
             | Towaway69 wrote:
             | You can also just randomly nuke a country or invade it for
             | its resources.
             | 
             | Or poison the internet with AI generated garbage.
             | 
             | There are many alternatives to acting nefariously, this is
             | just one.
        
             | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
             | Security by obscurity is actually useful, to some degree.
        
           | mathis wrote:
           | The location of the recent blackout is here:
           | https://openinframap.org/#12.98/52.43214/13.26948
           | 
           | One can see easily make out the power station Lichterfelde
           | and the affected substation inside of it. The area to the
           | east of the power station was without power between Saturday
           | and Thursday morning.
        
             | jotaen wrote:
             | > The area to the east of the power station
             | 
             | s/east/west/
             | 
             | (I.e., the area left of the power station.)
        
         | jcims wrote:
         | Most of this physical infrastructure is trivially identifiable
         | in Google Maps.
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | someone having ability to precisely target other country likely
         | would not be stopped much by need to find power plants
         | themselves
         | 
         | while such open data has also positive effects
         | 
         | have you considered both? it is not like deleting power plant
         | from single map would hide it
         | 
         | disclaimer: I am OpenStreetMap contributor
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | Some previous discussion:
       | 
       | 2024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39109185
       | 
       | 2022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29948473
        
       | wagwang wrote:
       | Gigachad french nuclear versus virgin german coal in map form.
        
       | arjvik wrote:
       | When I lived in Texas, we had a massive storm in winter of 2021
       | leaving many without power for a week.
       | 
       | I was told that Texas maintained its own energy grid independent
       | from the rest of the nation's eastern and western grids, and
       | supposedly only had a handful of high-voltage DC lines running
       | between Texas's and the rest of the nation's. Supposedly this was
       | why we couldn't rely on excess capacity from anywhere else in the
       | nation while our power generation capability was down.
       | 
       | But this map doesn't seem to show Texas as isolated - there
       | appear to be many lines in and out and no clear separation?
        
         | 333c wrote:
         | More info on Wikipedia:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection
         | 
         | > The Texas Interconnection is maintained as a separate grid
         | for political, rather than technical reasons
        
         | bob1029 wrote:
         | Texas is actually on ~4 different grids. I live north of
         | Houston and I'm on MISO.
         | 
         | https://www.researchgate.net/figure/ERCOT-geographic-footpri...
        
           | cwal37 wrote:
           | That's not what that image means at all. If you look closely,
           | you'll even see 3 additional colors, plus white, from the 4
           | I'm guessing you identified.
           | 
           | Those are ERCOT load zones, a distinct concept and all within
           | the ERCOT interconnection (grid).
           | 
           | On the markets side, Texas is made up of ERCOT, and then has
           | portions in (descending order) MISO, SPP, and the non-market
           | West.
           | 
           | In terms of "grids" Texas is mostly ERCOT, and then the
           | Eastern Interconnection with a small smidge of Western
           | Interconnection in the far west in El Paso Electric's
           | territory.
        
       | a1371 wrote:
       | An initially-stupid-sounding idea I heard a while back was
       | running power cables through the ocean floors between America and
       | the rest of the world. It's apparently feasible and the big
       | benefit of it is that at the grid peak hour when the sun is not
       | shining in Europe, they can get cheap solar from America and vice
       | versa
        
         | pbmonster wrote:
         | Yeah, ultra high voltage DC power lines have something like
         | 3.5% loss per 1000km. American sun belt to European sun belt is
         | at least 6000km, so you just gotta eat the 20% loss. Same
         | ballpark as pumped hydro storage.
         | 
         | 6000km sounds like a lot, but the Chinese have built a 3000km
         | UHVDC line delivering 12 GW, and putting down submarine
         | communications cables this long is complete routine today.
         | Would be interesting how much aluminium/lead/copper such a
         | project would take. EDIT: found a supplier that specifies a 1GW
         | cable at 7000 tons per spool. A spool is 130km of cable, so
         | that's 350 000 tons of cable per GW for the transatlantic link.
         | So just the raw aluminium is around a billion dollars per GW.
         | 
         | Anyway, first we have to properly connect those two sun belts
         | to the rest of their own continental masses with UHVDC, then we
         | have a lot of political problems to solve, and then we can
         | check battery prices...
        
         | mltvc wrote:
         | the Nato-L project [1] trying to get this done between Europe
         | and North-America. 2 of the founders are the guys behind the
         | (very interesting) redefining-energy podcast [2].
         | 
         | [1]: https://nato-l.com/ [2]: https://redefining-energy.com/
        
       | kelseydh wrote:
       | The map for Australia is interesting. Is this missing data? See
       | no infrastructure for Alice Springs in the interior of Australia.
        
         | defrost wrote:
         | Missing data and incomplete layers I'd say.
         | 
         | I know the areas from Alice west to the coast and north to the
         | equator fairly well.
         | 
         | Rail lines are missing, it appears to be _just_ "big" power
         | lines and that's 'accurate' in the sense that South Australia
         | doesn't share power across the Nuallabor to Western Australia
         | and many northern towns are 'independant' of any state or
         | territory grid, running on a local generation basis.
         | 
         | Doesn't show Pine Gap or the Naval Communication Station Harold
         | E. Holt base either . . . :-)
         | 
         | * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap
         | 
         | *
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Communication_Station_Ha...
         | 
         | (Ground to space and Ground to underwater communications)
        
         | dhx wrote:
         | Australia is miniscule by global standards and Alice Springs is
         | miniscule by Australian standards. Alice Springs isn't
         | connected to the grid servicing most of Australia's population
         | crammed up along the East coast and doesn't have much in the
         | way of heavy industrial users nearby. The difficulty for OSM
         | mappers is the low-capacity above-ground power lines in Alice
         | Springs have no more pixels as the trunk of any 20 year old
         | tree so at satellite imagery resolutions of >30cm you may need
         | to find an image taken at sunrise or sunset where the long
         | shadow of a pole is visible on the ground. I also think it is
         | preferred in remote locations such as Alice Springs to run
         | lines underground (particularly along roads) due to decreased
         | total cost of ownership of not having to worry about bushfire
         | and flood damage to infrastructure.
         | 
         | The ACT government provides ~10cm aerial imagery of Canberra
         | and surrounds a few times a year and from this imagery, unless
         | a minor power pole is obscured by trees or a building, it is
         | generally easy to identify most poles. Evoenergy (distribution
         | operator for the ACT) also publicly provide detailed maps of
         | poles and lines no matter how minor they are. The reason this
         | detail won't be mapped in OSM is lack of interest and
         | availability of mappers to micro-map every minor power pole
         | from aerial imagery, and OSM's very conservative approach to
         | importing datasets, particularly from a licensing perspective
         | (e.g. attempting to apply European database directive concerns
         | in countries like Australia which don't have equivalent laws,
         | and even have opposing case law precedents).
         | 
         | Australia is one of the most open countries when it comes to
         | supplying electrical grid data. Even underground conduit
         | locations are available publicly for most distributors, as well
         | as designed summer/winter constraints for each transmission
         | line (e.g. maximum kA per line). See [1] for some links to maps
         | and other data that is made publicly available.
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20%3Foperator%20%3Foperat...
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | It is possible and likely that some data was not yet mapped in
         | OpenStreetMap. So it is missing in OpenStreetMap-based map.
         | 
         | Feel free to edit it if you can!
         | 
         | (even if this specific data is not possible to be added by you
         | - feel free to add say nearby shop or park)
         | 
         | ad: if you have Android I can recommend StreetComplete (great
         | for newbies)
         | 
         | if you have iPhone - GoMap!! is great though a bit more
         | complicated to use
         | 
         | Vespucci is more complicated and more powerful than
         | StreetComplete editor for Android phones
         | 
         | or you can edit directly on osm.org from desktop
         | 
         | -------------
         | 
         | disclaimer: I am a walking conflict of interest as far as OSM
         | goes (for start, I am StreetComplete contributor)
        
         | el_duderino wrote:
         | Yeah, I see some data in my city where a plant was closed and
         | demolished 4 years ago and is still listed on there.
        
       | paganel wrote:
       | Excellent link, thank you for posting!
       | 
       | Wanted to do a map of the power network here in Romania, hadn't
       | thought to check if anything similar already existed, or I
       | couldn't find it myself, at least, but it seems like this map has
       | (almost) all that I wanted to do in that respect, including the
       | position of the power poles on the ground.
        
       | ankraft wrote:
       | For the Netherlands (and surrounding countries), there is
       | Hoogspanningsnet (the high-voltage grid), which is maintained by
       | infrastructure enthusiasts:
       | https://webkaart.hoogspanningsnet.com/
        
       | apexalpha wrote:
       | This is really cool. I had no idea my city had two underground
       | 50kV cables to distribute the power.
       | 
       | From what I can see it's pretty complete and up to date for my
       | area.
        
       | cowteriyaki wrote:
       | I find the fact that beer pipelines have their own color
       | designation in the map legend intriguing. Are they common enough
       | outside of breweries to merit singling them out?
        
         | yorwba wrote:
         | There are two beer pipelines in Belgium: https://overpass-
         | turbo.eu/s/2isf I think the fact that they're in the
         | OpenStreetMap data at all is enough to give them their own
         | color on the map.
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | I know there's one in Bruges, which is mapped on here:
         | https://openinframap.org/#13.22/51.21001/3.22418/A,B,I,L
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | I suspect that it is more about being a cool fact than being
         | common.
        
       | raggles wrote:
       | In New Zealand at least, a lot of this data seems to come from
       | imagery; it's quite outdated, the cables are all missing and the
       | voltages are pretty hit and miss. Cool project though.
        
         | dhx wrote:
         | If you want more up-to-date/accurate data on NZ transmission
         | infrastructure there is also the following "Point" geometry
         | tagged per OSM conventions:
         | 
         | [1] Transpower pylons: https://alltheplaces-
         | data.openaddresses.io/map.html?show=htt...
         | 
         | [2] Transpower substations: https://alltheplaces-
         | data.openaddresses.io/map.html?show=htt...
         | 
         | The public source of this data (ArcGIS Feature Server account
         | of Transpower) shows data last modified by Transpower in
         | October 2025 for pylons and February 2025 for substations. At
         | the rate of development of NZ, you wouldn't expect major
         | changes to any of this data unless it's a major transmission
         | upgrade project identified years in advance in hundreds of
         | public announcements and documents.
         | 
         | For distribution, the largest distributor in NZ (Vector)
         | provides "Line" geometry at
         | https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?url=https:/...
         | (note: not included in AllThePlaces due to ATP not currently
         | collecting geometry other than points)
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | You can update the data in Open Street Map. Theres a lot of
         | incorrect data in there, but it can only be as good as the data
         | thats been entered.
        
       | krzyk wrote:
       | Also interesing one can find places like
       | https://openinframap.org/#18.27/49.995951/18.966733 where 220kV
       | line is just above a house.
       | 
       | I wonder how easy it would be to prepare a query in osm to find
       | all such cases.
        
       | croemer wrote:
       | One can nicely see the bridge across the river that was burned in
       | the recent attack in Berlin.
       | https://openinframap.org/#15.16/52.425587/13.307235
       | 
       | Everything on the left thereof was then without power for
       | multiple days as this was a single point of failure.
       | 
       | See thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46487404
        
         | luplex wrote:
         | I immediately went and looked for it too!
         | 
         | I also tried to see any vulnerable sabotage spots that would
         | put my electricity out, but that seems harder.
        
       | farg24 wrote:
       | Nothing in Alaska?
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | likely it was not yet mapped in OpenStreetMap!
         | 
         | So it is missing in OpenStreetMap-based map.
         | 
         | Feel free to edit it if you can!
         | 
         | (even if this specific data is not possible to be added by you
         | - feel free to add say nearby shop or park)
         | 
         | ad: if you have Android I can recommend StreetComplete (great
         | for newbies)
         | 
         | if you have iPhone - GoMap!! is great though a bit more
         | complicated to use
         | 
         | Vespucci is more complicated and more powerful than
         | StreetComplete editor for Android phones
         | 
         | or you can edit directly on osm.org from desktop
         | 
         | -------------
         | 
         | disclaimer: I am a walking conflict of interest as far as OSM
         | goes (for start, I am StreetComplete contributor)
        
       | ece wrote:
       | Telecom just seems to show data centers? Was hoping to see where
       | cable/fiber lines.
        
       | Flere-Imsaho wrote:
       | Shout out to the UK for the number of off-shore wind turbine
       | farms:
       | 
       | https://openinframap.org/#7.17/52.529/1.681
        
         | ascari wrote:
         | Except that the UK has one of the most expensive electricity
         | prices in the world
        
           | ic_fly2 wrote:
           | That has two causes, dependency on natural gas, which would
           | be worse without renewables and taxes, which is unrelated to
           | renewables and related to general policy goals of reducing
           | energy demand.
           | 
           | Also even in a European context UK power prices aren't as
           | high as many of its peers.
        
           | yabones wrote:
           | If I'm remembering correctly, it's because the previous
           | government set the price floor to the average natural gas
           | price, artificially propping up their north sea oil & gas
           | industry that's been noncompetitive for decades. Even though
           | they _can_ make cheap energy, consumers get screwed because
           | of national security concerns.
           | 
           | Unfortunately I don't have a source, and would appreciate a
           | UK national with better understanding than me to chime in :)
        
             | russss wrote:
             | Pretty much all electricity markets worldwide set the unit
             | price based on the the cost of the "marginal" (most
             | expensive) generator running during each time period. It's
             | a weirdly common misconception that the UK is unique in
             | doing this.
             | 
             | If you paid generators what they bid, then they're
             | incentivised to manipulate their bids to try and make the
             | most money, distorting the market.
             | 
             | Almost all the wind farms and many solar farms in the UK
             | operate under the "contract for difference" system, where
             | they're guaranteed a fixed price per unit and have to pay
             | back any income above that. So a lot of the money paid is
             | clawed back through that method.
             | 
             | The reason the UK's electricity has been expensive over the
             | last few years comes down to:                 - Shutdown of
             | several nuclear plants without any replacement       -
             | Shutdown of coal plants and replacement with gas       -
             | The Ukraine war affecting gas prices       - Clean energy
             | surcharges on bills (which hit electricity bills a lot
             | harder than gas bills, regardless of how clean the
             | electricity is...)
             | 
             | There will be a bunch more renewables coming online soon
             | which will hopefully start crowding out gas and driving the
             | price down more regularly, so hopefully prices will start
             | dropping faster soon.
        
               | everfrustrated wrote:
               | >Pretty much all electricity markets worldwide set the
               | unit price based on the the cost of the "marginal" (most
               | expensive) generator running during each time period
               | 
               | Indeed. This is inherent failing of the use of auctions
               | for setting price. While using auctions is a laudable
               | goal, in reality it is not very efficient and easily
               | gamed. Having a central purchaser model is not idea from
               | a ideological standpoint but clearly more efficient
               | allowing correctly controlling for more variables than
               | can (crudely) be transmitted through a 30 minute auction
               | period.
        
               | FuriouslyAdrift wrote:
               | Enron made a ton of money gaming energy auctions until it
               | all fell apart.
               | 
               | https://www.marketplace.org/story/2021/09/30/20-years-
               | later-...
        
             | everfrustrated wrote:
             | The only reason the wind farms got built was because they
             | got guaranteed a high price of electricity that took the
             | risk out of it. This changed more recently which is why
             | building stopped.
             | 
             | Another factor is in the UK everything below the average
             | tide line is owned by the Crown (as in the King not the
             | government) who were very happy to get lease income. The
             | Govt was also happy so it didn't look like the people were
             | funding the King (which they are).
             | 
             | Also the public are very against wind turbines on land
             | which is reasonable in England where there isn't much
             | isolated land to put them.
             | 
             | At least they got built, which is more than can be said for
             | the nuclear plants.
        
             | yrro wrote:
             | https://www.electricitybills.uk/ shows a breakdown of the
             | components of consumer energy bills. It's not as simple as
             | saying "it's expensive because of gas", though pricing
             | based on the marginal production cost is one component.
        
               | seb1204 wrote:
               | Thanks, interesting. The price almost doubled between
               | 2021 and 2022. Has been coming down since.
        
             | snthd wrote:
             | Related - "The UK is wasting a lot of wind power" from
             | 2023. https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-
             | of-wind-p...
             | 
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34358795
        
           | UltraSane wrote:
           | Germany is even more expensive.
        
         | rdiddly wrote:
         | Makes sense. If you're an island surrounded by water, you don't
         | have to go through the hassle of finding a piece of land to put
         | them on.
        
       | maelito wrote:
       | It seems to me that past civilisations on earth were more evolved
       | given their railway infrastructure. Incredible.
        
       | shautvast wrote:
       | It lists 'Centrale Hemweg' (Amsterdam). This plant was
       | decommissioned 6 years ago. How up to date is this data?
        
         | agwa wrote:
         | It gets its data from Open Street Map, so it's only up-to-date
         | if volunteers are keeping it up-to-date.
         | 
         | That said, https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrale_Hemweg says
         | the plant was converted to natural gas, not decommissioned, in
         | 2019, and this is correctly reflected in Open Street Map / Open
         | Infra Map. Do you have a citation that contradicts this?
        
       | 7e wrote:
       | Is this a guide for Russian saboteurs?
        
         | iamnothere wrote:
         | No, it's a map of infrastructure.
        
       | Beijinger wrote:
       | It is a great tool for terrorist attacks:
       | https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgrpzn6gz4o
        
         | iamnothere wrote:
         | So is Wikipedia, the internet in general, the library, Home
         | Depot, a rental vehicle, or a basic working knowledge of
         | chemistry. What's the point in stating the obvious?
        
         | orthecreedence wrote:
         | I'm pretty sure ICE has access to all this information already.
        
       | DataJunkie wrote:
       | It may be my autism, but as a kid, I was always fascinated by
       | infrastructure, particularly power lines. My dad once drove me
       | down an Edison Road up to the top of a mountain just to see where
       | the power line went. We had to stop at the top. I could see my
       | neighborhood from a view that I had never seen before. Today I
       | would consider it beautiful. Back then it was weird!
       | 
       | I had a fascination with how different the poles looked and how
       | the equipment was mounted. It seemed like no two pylons were
       | alike.
       | 
       | Based on this map, it looks like all of our power comes from
       | hydroelectric.
       | 
       | I love this site. I just wish it was more complete. There are
       | some major water and natural gas pipelines that aren't recorded.
       | Maybe in time.
        
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