[HN Gopher] Punkt. Unveils MC03 Smartphone
___________________________________________________________________
Punkt. Unveils MC03 Smartphone
Author : ChrisArchitect
Score : 162 points
Date : 2026-01-02 16:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.punkt.ch)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.punkt.ch)
| hasperdi wrote:
| EUR700 for a locked down phone, excluding EUR10 / month
| subscription of a locked down OS. No thanks
| drcongo wrote:
| It's almost like we're being punked.
| algesten wrote:
| or being... punkted?
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad and
| it seems they've opened up the platform to support more
| applications beyond a few blessed ones (like Signal in the past).
|
| Really put off by this though:
|
| > If you don't pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03,
| you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
|
| So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device?
| Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
| observationist wrote:
| Yeah, this is the opposite of being your device. This is
| pretending to own a device as a service.
|
| I'm building a portable pbx on a raspberry pi with some power
| banks I stick in a backpack and a dual sim 5g unlimited
| internet hotspot, and switch over to starlink 5g when that
| happens. I'll throw a media server in there (pirate
| everything), and use a small portable wireless streaming
| touchscreen. There are all sorts of useful UI and linux tools
| that can make it a far better experience than android or
| phones. If I need a camera, I'll buy a camera. I've got earbuds
| and bluetooth for peripherals.
|
| 2026 is the year I leave "phones" behind - not playing the
| subscription device game anymore. I left Windows last year.
| I'll get better service, real control, and no enshittification
| treadmill.
|
| It's too bad it takes an inordinate amount of tech savvy to
| break out - Linux is well beyond good enough for grandma or the
| average user at this point. There's no reason beyond
| exploitation for profit for the kafkaesque intrusion into
| people's lives and data. If you've got the capability, break
| out.
|
| This product is not breaking free. Same walls, different
| garden.
| antinomicus wrote:
| Re: media server. Yeah. I wish there was an alternative but
| the modern media landscape is so broken there is no other way
| to maintain digital copies of your shows and movies, while
| maintaining your own ability to curate your ow content on a
| plane that isn't just another surface for those companies to
| drive engagement metrics. If you try to escape, you are
| forced into drm locked down Blu rays or even just shit out of
| luck in the case of a lot of direct to streaming tv. In which
| case you have two options, stay on the enshittification
| treadmill, taking more and more shit from bigass corporations
| who are actively poisoning the culture, or sail the seas. Or
| I guess just don't watch tv. But I like tv.
| fainpul wrote:
| So you walk around with a backpack instead of a smartphone?
| :o
| wiether wrote:
| I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their
| products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying
| for OS updates.
|
| Part of the premium we pay for an iPhone or a Mac is to finance
| the development of iOS/MacOS. We get the updates for "free" but
| we actually already paid them when we paid the device.
|
| Meanwhile, here it's clear: you pay the device, and then you
| pay for the OS.
|
| The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
|
| Or relying on the goodwill of other people (FOSS).
|
| If I take the example of Kagi, I saw how much impact as a
| customer I have/had on the product.
|
| Meanwhile Microsoft/Google/Apple don't care.
|
| And on FOSS I could _just_ do the things myself, but I'm not an
| OS dev and I already spend some time on other FOSS projects
| (I'm writing this message on an Linux computer). Donations are
| great but they are not reliable/predictable and they don't give
| you more power to influence the product.
|
| Regarding your question "Why do I need to pay to retain data
| that is on my own device?", according to their FAQ: "Without an
| active subscription, certain core services and privacy features
| will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure,
| and up to date, an active subscription is required."
| https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
|
| So the phone won't brick itself and you won't lose access to
| your data.
|
| But the company itself give me a bad feeling, like Proton,
| trying to surf the hype and doing lots of virtue signaling.
| gruez wrote:
| >I'm not saying that I'm approving this company or their
| products, but I can definitely get behind the idea of paying
| for OS updates.
|
| >[...]
|
| >The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
|
| But Microsoft does offer that, it's called ESU for windows.
| The problem I suspect is that the cost of maintaining
| security patches is fixed, and nobody (relatively speaking)
| wants to pay for it, so other companies like Apple doesn't
| even bother.
| imglorp wrote:
| That's all fine but Microsoft is also screenshotting
| everything, uploading it, then selling you services,
| pushing ads, mining and training on your data and who knows
| what else. So you pay both ways.
| dangus wrote:
| This statement is wild hyperbole and doesn't represent
| the privacy landscape of a default Windows 11 install.
| Even Windows Recall, an optional opt-in beta product only
| available on specific hardware, very clearly and
| specifically in its legally binding privacy policy says
| that data never leaves your device and is never sent to
| Microsoft.
|
| Windows is paid for by OEMs. It doesn't cost much (and
| it's free for some classes of devices) but Microsoft
| still gets paid for it.
|
| Don't forget they also get paid for a lot of Windows-
| adjacent services. 365 subscriptions, Bing users clicking
| on ads, and the whole business ecosystem of Azure, Entra
| ID, Microsoft Exchange/Outlook 365, etc.
| echelon wrote:
| > I can definitely get behind the idea of paying for OS
| updates.
|
| From consumer App Store pricing expectations to the notion
| that FOSS be offered at no cost, expecting everything to be
| free has damaged small software for decades.
|
| There is no other way to support software. You have to pay
| for it.
|
| Even with this, it still won't be able to compete with the
| big guys and their enormous ad funnels. But it's better than
| forcing them to be anemic and sustain themselves with nothing
| at all.
|
| We have to pay to maintain the things we want.
| dangus wrote:
| It's a stupid business model for this product category and
| shows their leadership doesn't understand the market.
|
| If you buy a Pixel and flash GrapheneOS, you're getting a
| better secured phone, better phone hardware, and for less
| money if you shop smart.
|
| The only reason you'd buy this product over that solution is
| that you literally don't know any better.
|
| If they want to monetize their OS they should just do what
| _every other phone manufacturer_ does and sell optional but
| integrated services.
|
| There's no need to push them as mandatory because a lot of
| people will end up with them anyway (e.g., iCloud+, Samsung
| whatever, and Google One).
| Aeglaecia wrote:
| cosmic levels of spin doctoring , doesn't really give a good
| gut feeling , especially post anom/operation ironside
| piou wrote:
| > I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad
|
| That's their MP02, different product line, which is pretty much
| just talk and text plus Signal ("Pigeon" on the MP02):
| https://www.punkt.ch/products/mp02-4g-minimalist-phone
|
| I recommend the MP02, with one caveat: don't buy it right now.
| Because there have historically been problems with Pigeon, you
| really ought to use Signal for Desktop at the same time as
| Pigeon, in case Pigeon starts having problems. But as of now
| you can't you can't connect the two (though Signal for Desktop
| keeps working fine if you already have them synced).
|
| I've found the call quality and reliability on the MP02 to be
| great after a year of use.
|
| [Edited to add: MP02 doesn't require a subscription.]
| sallveburrpi wrote:
| People really pay 300+ EUR for a phone; it's crazy to me.
|
| I still have some ancient (pre-smartphone) phones lying
| around, they work just fine and do the same thing. To be fair
| they don't come with Signal but then again that doesn't seem
| to work well. Only real argument would be the battery - but
| the last time I tested one of my old burner phones the
| battery still lasted for about 5 days (crazy right...)
| DrewADesign wrote:
| To be fair, your old feature phones don't do the same thing
| as a modern smart phone-- you just aren't interested in
| doing things they aren't capable of. I have very different
| use cases.
| smallerize wrote:
| None of my old phones works since the networks turned off
| 3G.
| trueno wrote:
| ive been watching the developments of sidephone closely. ive
| long sought the perfect dumb-ish phone and they just dont
| exist, the sidephone isn't perfect either but if it delivers
| it could be much closer. there's pieces of it im not a fan
| of: closed source OS (for now) and no word on if there will
| at least be like SDK's to build out things for it.
|
| the biggest leap forward in smart phones to me was personally
| in-hand GPS navigation. that was a game changer. I really
| _don't_ need to be even opening internet browsers for
| anything. T9 phone with a week of battery life, the ability
| to play some mp3's and GPS navigation and.. sigh I guess some
| way for me to issue MFA for okta/entraid/whatever since
| that's so ubiquitous with workplace security now... and I'd
| be set.
|
| it's wild how advanced the likes of hardware companies were
| over a decade ago at making miniature hardware. the last
| generation ipod nano (7th I think?) was this tiny touch
| screen device and when I hold it in my hand today it feels
| ... actually magic. seriously it feels mind blowing, state of
| the art with how small and responsive it is. like that kind
| of miniaturization doesn't seem to exist anymore & it's
| something only the hardware giants at scale seemed to be able
| to do since they had supply chain connections and R&D
| warchests to blow on designing custom components. A lot of
| these dumb phones rely on generalist components I think and
| they aren't bankrolled with bajillions of dollars to get new
| R&D going and tooling online to really put an impressive
| device together, I just never see it in these "disconnect but
| stay just connected enough" dumb-phones that are trying to
| offer an exit from the noise of modern smart phones.
|
| i'd absolutely cherish something that had the form of the
| nokia xpress music 5310 https://news.softpedia.com/images/ext
| ra/MOBILE/large/Nokia_5... with gps navigation, the ability
| to play music, and workplace MFA capability.
|
| that's it, i've thought about it and i seriously don't need
| anything else. yeah whatsapp and spotify are super ubiquitous
| these days but they're literally not required to get in touch
| with me. and for spotify, i finally did do that whole "nerd
| mods an ipod 15 years later thing" and it taught me something
| that i needed to know about myself: ADHD + spotify = bad. my
| last decades playlists are a mess, i listen to music _less_
| because it's just an onslaught of new stuff and access to
| everything. something about having a collection of music i
| actually took time to curate into playlists..i know what's in
| there i know what i can listen to. it's somewhere between
| meditative (which is good for me) and very intentional.
| acquiring new music is now also very intentional, getting it
| onto my device is intentional. its slower, less convenient,
| and somehow it makes me enjoy the music experience a lot
| more. im listening to more music now in a way that I haven't
| since I was sitting on a schoolbus next to my crush and
| sharing a headphone with her.
|
| all in all I've seen a few of these "dumb phones, no
| distraction" device manufs now like punkt here start off with
| a cool design and eventually just cave and fold to some full
| screen touch design. to me that just nixes a lot of
| checkboxes for me: more screen = undoubtedly more
| distractions and ways to be connected, i miss buttons, i
| just... don't want a big phone. ever. i want to be
| intentional about my connectivity, and that means if i need
| the internet i need to just go hop on my computer. if im
| itching to know something and im standing in an elevator or
| standing on a subway, i actually don't want to be able to
| pull my phone out and have the immediacy of an answer. i want
| to stay bored in my head, work on the skill of "this is
| important i hope i come back to it lets index that thought
| and come back to it later", and just learn to live with being
| in my own head without the constant need to have an answer or
| scratch a dopamine itch immediately. there's something ive
| completely lost over the years, basically that ability to
| imagine spiderman swinging from the powerlines when i was a
| kid looking out the window of my parents car. whatever _that_
| is, i think that came with a lot of core benefits for my
| brain activity that generally allowed me to have a more
| meaningful and happier life.
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| Yes to cancelling Spotify and intentionally creating
| playlists from your carefully curated music. Or just
| listening to good old albums.
|
| Being able to be alone with our thoughts and let our mind
| wander and not having to pull out our phone is a good skill
| to practise.
|
| But a phone with a map and gps is quite useful.
| andoando wrote:
| What I don't get about this devices is the insane price tag.
| Seems absurd to pay just as much for these things as an Iphone.
| al_borland wrote:
| They should really just bake this into the price of the phone.
| Charge more up front and then offer "free" updates while also
| respecting users and their data.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| Has Graphene announced their 'major Android OEM to bring the OS
| to Snapdragon-powered flagships' [that is NOT fairphone] yet?
| fph wrote:
| No, not yet.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Based on how they speak of competitors and potential partners
| alike (no matter how good or bad they are, so long as they're
| not perfect, and nobody has perfect security in this internet
| world, only grapheneos gets a free pass from grapheneos), I
| half expect that this 'major OEM' will sooner or later have one
| tiny slip-up in opsec that makes graphene's owner think they're
| conspiring against them and they abort mission and start
| looking for another partner to begin anew
| StrLght wrote:
| Here's what GrapheneOS said about AphyOS:
| https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1893469596973220188
|
| > They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with
| LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS,
| but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have
| remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app
| compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
| lucb1e wrote:
| >> They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS
|
| Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that
| would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other
| partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...),
| and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/
| there either)
|
| Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP
| (Android open source project)
| Sayrus wrote:
| Searching for "site:punkt.ch grapheneos" returns results that
| don't exist anymore. Articles are linked in the thread which
| supports this as well.
|
| > They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in
| their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep
| following along with our improvements and have shifted away
| from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
|
| And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to
| market based on this, they don't anymore.
| lif wrote:
| can someone explain how a subscription-based product is a great
| option for privacy?
|
| or how being locked in to a black box vpn instills a sense of
| having gained reliable true privacy?
| endemic wrote:
| yeah, it seems like the target market for a privacy-focused
| device like this are the nerds who could do it themselves and
| be more confident of the results
| turtlebits wrote:
| It's probably to pay for all the things Google provides for
| free, app store hosting, review, curation, backups, synced
| data, etc.
| mzajc wrote:
| > app store hosting, review
|
| Do they actually host anything at all? All I could find was
| their F-Droid repository with six (6) applications:
| https://store.aphy.app/fdroid/repo/. The rest must come from
| elsewhere (F-Droid's main archive?), but they don't indicate
| if they actually use the rent you pay to fund the third
| parties they depend on.
|
| For comparison, the F-Droid archive consists of 4061
| applications reviewed, built, and hosted by the F-Droid team
| for free.
| sanjayts wrote:
| I'm really struggling to see who this phone is aimed for. Why
| would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone that is
| cut off from the major app stores?
| tensegrist wrote:
| >punkt.ch wants to send you notifications
|
| pretty bad signal
| the_gipsy wrote:
| > Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-
| based smartphone
|
| stopped reading there
| yunnpp wrote:
| I really wonder what the hell that is even about. It doesn't
| just seem like unfortunate messaging.
| lucb1e wrote:
| If only they had a website where you could look up this
| information
| lucb1e wrote:
| This is a very interesting thread to read... I can't help but
| remember the wishes expressed in other news threads such as 'I
| wish I could just pay for things to not have tracking built in' /
| 'This vital software component is so underfunded, no wonder this
| happens'
|
| Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of
| 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I
| guess that means the former vibe is not something most people
| actually want?
| fragmede wrote:
| Yes. Don't listen to what people say they will do, pay
| attention to what they actually do.
| mzajc wrote:
| I'm not sure if you find it genuinely surprising that the
| Hacker News populace is not moved by a device that you not only
| have to pay rent for, but that also seemingly does not support
| custom ROMs/firmware.
|
| Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for
| is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention
| anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to
| their upstreams.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Those are fair criticisms, but that's not what I saw
| mentioned when the thread was young and the comments were at
| the level of "wait I have to _pay_ for them maintaining the
| OS?? ". It seems people have that as a gut reaction even
| though they have presumably also (on average) been exposed to
| sentiments pro paying for things that cost money
| tokai wrote:
| So if you dislike Google's business model you have to love John
| Deer's?
| lucb1e wrote:
| Propose another model instead of just saying no to every
| option?
| protimewaster wrote:
| I don't understand what's wrong with just releasing a phone
| that uses baseline GrapheneOS so that their development
| costs are relatively minimal.
| Lio wrote:
| I think the distaste is for rent being charged on a device that
| you've supposedly bought out right.
|
| Charge a subscription or sell the phone outright but don't do
| both.
|
| I feel the same way about cars where you pay for the engine or
| the heated seats but can't use them without paying rent.
| fweimer wrote:
| I think it's an interesting model. Somehow, the maintenance
| needs to be funded, and that is an ongoing effort. Charging
| for security updates is not ideal, but I'm not sure what the
| alternative would be.
| layer8 wrote:
| I don't think they can charge for updates, at least not in
| the first five years where the EU mandates that updates
| must be made available.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Also if it's mandatory? I would also say it's desirable
| to prevent the situation in which users just choose to
| have zombie devices because security is more expensive,
| but making them free or making them mandatory paid would
| both work for that
| protimewaster wrote:
| How would they make it mandatory, though? The only way I
| can think of making it mandatory would be if the phone
| bricks itself when the subscription ends. Or if you just
| lease the phone and the lease includes updates.
|
| It seems like the best approach would be to just include
| the cost of updates in the price of the phone, which I
| guess is what every other phone maker does.
| protimewaster wrote:
| It seems like it would be cheaper and more effective to
| just keep in sync with GrapheneOS rather than maintaining a
| custom fork.
|
| I understand that maintenance still isn't free in that
| case, but it seems like they went out of their way to make
| more maintenance work for themselves, and then they asked
| their customers to pay for it. As a potential customer, I
| would've rather it just come with standard GOS rather than
| paying yearly for a fork that probably isn't as secure.
| mistercheph wrote:
| People are willing to pay for value delivery and innovation,
| neither of which are even attempted in this device-, this is
| just reskinning and rent-seeking.
| mzajc wrote:
| > What happens if I cancel my subscription?
|
| > You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription,
| certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To
| keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an
| active subscription is required.
|
| Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-
| Service), what _exactly_ happens when you cancel your
| subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you
| flash a sane operating system that doesn 't treat you as a cash
| cow?
| Jolter wrote:
| Most people seem to be subscribing to a cell phone already. Not
| us techies, but most normies seem to have expensive phones on
| three year "plans" while locked to an expensive network.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| Financing a phone is dumb for most people imo, but at least
| it has an explicit end where you own the phone outright.
|
| This phone requires a subscription in perpetuity, on top of
| the full purchase price.
| MadnessASAP wrote:
| The last couple times I got a new phone the price of the
| phone + plan without financing for 2 years was greater then
| plan with 2 years of financing. So yeah, I got the
| financing.
|
| This was in Canada however.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| Yeah I'd never do that. I just buy it outright.
|
| I don't have a cell phone subscription either. I use prepaid
| which actually is cheaper.
| qwertox wrote:
| Sometimes prepaid is a bit more expensive because you're
| paying for 28 days and not a month. You basically have 13
| cycles per year instead of 12 (28*13 = 364 days)
| throwup238 wrote:
| I suspect the OP means prepaying for the year. AT&T is
| like $25/mo for 5GB data + unlimited everything else if
| you pay upfront for the whole year ($300). Prepaid MVNO
| plans are even cheaper.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| No that's not what I mean. And I'm not in the US. A EUR20
| prepaid data bundle here on orange is much larger than a
| EUR20 contract. And the prepay has built in overcharge
| protection.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| This has been made illegal years ago in Europe.
| systemtest wrote:
| Legal in the EU but the consumer has to be notified about
| it.
|
| https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PETI-
| CM-580731...
| Jolter wrote:
| Network locks are not illegal AFAIK, but consumers can
| request an unlock.
| kortilla wrote:
| Financing is not a subscription.
| lproven wrote:
| > what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription?
|
| I have the previous model, the MC02. I reviewed it here:
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/05/mc02_swiss_private_ph...
|
| The sub is for the email account. Cancel the sub, that email
| stops working. You can still use any other email account and
| client you wish.
|
| This may no longer be the case -- but that's what I'd expect.
| lucb1e wrote:
| The product page (https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-
| secure-smartphone, click on "all tech specs") mentions a "SAR
| sensor". I have not seen that before, does anyone know what this
| does? Does the device try to estimate how much EM your body
| received while carrying it around or calling, or what is this
| for?
| AlphaWeaver wrote:
| Yep, SAR stands for "specific absorption rate". These sensors
| are typically used to change how the antennas on the phone
| transmit (like how much power they use) by detecting whether
| the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like
| on a table.
|
| Most phones have them.
| qwertox wrote:
| Like the coulometer they mention. This is a battery discharge
| sensor, nobody would mention this in the specs. SAR sensor
| and coulometer are standard by now.
| danpalmer wrote:
| Which leads to a conclusion, either the makers don't know
| enough to know it's standard (which suggests they aren't
| well informed enough to make a modern smartphone), or they
| do know but decided to include it to pad their spec sheet
| (which suggests disingenuous marketing).
| mmooss wrote:
| They could just be transparent and know their techy
| customers are interested in these sorts of things.
| Possibly, they want to assure customers that their off-
| brand phone includes such features.
| lucb1e wrote:
| That would also be my reading. I'm the type of nerd who's
| interested in minute details of his devices. I'm looking
| for a new phone currently and my spreadsheet includes
| columns like the UFS version, minimal brightness (as
| measured by some independent news site), whether it has a
| barometer, dual-frequency GNSS, etc. It always requires
| retrieving info via third parties such as https://docs.go
| ogle.com/spreadsheets/d/1jXtRCoEnnFNWj6_oFlVW... (GPSTest
| database), https://phyphox.org/sensordb/, the video mode
| list on gsmarena.com, etc.
|
| I haven't yet found a manufacturer that publishes
| sufficient detail such that I can fill out all relevant
| columns from their official spec page. They're never
| detailed enough so I can only applaud including more
| details. There will always be fields that aren't relevant
| to different subgroups of the audience...
| lucb1e wrote:
| > by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body
| vs. sitting somewhere like on a table
|
| Wow, so it basically measures the material that it's near to!
| That's cool. I know that microwaves are well-adsorbed by
| water (such as in bodies), is that how this works, does it
| piggyback on the 2.4 GHz antenna? Can I read this sensor's
| output via some Android API or a device file (with root
| perhaps)?
| A_Duck wrote:
| The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard
| for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS
|
| This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans,
| which should be a key market.
|
| I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it
| out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home
| because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get
| in touch with anyone.
| Rohansi wrote:
| I don't understand - how could they not get in touch with
| anyone? Surely SMS would have still worked if they were
| available on WhatsApp?
| A_Duck wrote:
| Trying to do an ELIHN here...
|
| On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means
| 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between
| strangers (higher cost edge)
|
| Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9
| actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge)
|
| So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other
| person's number, but that particular person didn't check
| their phone.
| prmoustache wrote:
| What the heck is an ELIHN?
| A_Duck wrote:
| Explain Like I'm Hacker News
| prmoustache wrote:
| If that is your friend he surely had your number right
| and possibly others? Then why couldn't he get in touch
| with you or others?
|
| Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone
| because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the
| place where you would ask for help anyway because
| virtually nobody would get notified.
| noAnswer wrote:
| This thread is peak Hacker News!
|
| WhatsApp is undoubtedly big in Europe:
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-
| population...
|
| Hacker News: No one needs it. No one uses its group
| features. Man Gesturing No Emoji. Just use a landline
| instead!
|
| > If that is your friend he surely had your number right
| and possibly others?
|
| He answered that.
|
| > Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost
| anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly
| the place where you would ask for help anyway because
| virtually nobody would get notified.
|
| Sure in a group of 10 everyone acts like you and mutes
| the holiday group for text, voice- and video-calls. Even
| on the last day with possible increased need for
| communication. How far can the goalposts be moved?
|
| In my social group I was always the guy that wanted other
| to use my chat program. Last year I caved and installed
| WhatsApp. Guess what: I didn't die and it isn't half bad.
| prmoustache wrote:
| The point is not to refute that whatsapp is big, the
| point is that you can still function without it and a lot
| of people actually do with little or zero friction.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| I have not used SMS in many years. Nor RCS. I don't want my
| mobile provider to have any part in my Comms besides moving
| bytes around.
| ekjhgkejhgk wrote:
| You'll rather have Google and Facebook have a part in your
| comms?
|
| Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking.
| The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to
| everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by
| Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's
| memory.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| I don't use google accounts on my android phone. And yeah
| like you say whatever access they still have (not so much
| IMO) they have anyway regardless of which messenger I
| use. And yeah I do mind having facebook involved but it's
| just not really avoidable where I live. I really need
| whatsapp.
|
| I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the
| whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge.
| The app is still installed on another phone which is left
| at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the
| pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards
| that will forget it if we don't keep entering it).
|
| On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned
| from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with
| the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
| ekjhgkejhgk wrote:
| I'm not sure I understood. Are you saying that you have a
| primary phone which isn't Android, on which you type into
| Matrix, Matrix relays into a phone that you have a home
| which passes messages from Matrix into WhatsApp? Is that
| what you're describing?
| minitech wrote:
| Before implying SMS is preferable to an E2EE messaging
| app because Google "has access to everything in the
| phone's memory", please exercise your critical thinking.
|
| Okay, now we've established that even your dishonest spin
| on the relationship between companies that provide the
| software and communications using the software is
| extremely unconvincing: that's a dishonest spin on the
| relationship between companies that provide the software
| and communications using the software. Google/Facebook
| has to mount an active attack, serving you malicious
| software, in order to get the kind of access you're
| talking about, which is risky and something we're slowly
| but surely getting better at defending against
| (attestation, transparency logs).
| xcf_seetan wrote:
| Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can
| comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms,
| that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how
| to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications
| restricted to Whatsapp?
| Lio wrote:
| When you say "Europe" where exactly do you mean?
|
| My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in
| Europe is that I don't miss it.
|
| I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal
| but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business
| or any indivdual.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| Here in Spain you absolutely can't live without it lol. Also
| telegram
| Lio wrote:
| Counter point, I had no issues on my last visit to Spain.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| No I meant if you live here, not if you just visit of
| course. If you're part of society here you really need
| it.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I live in Spain and I don't think you can't live without
| it.
|
| Sure you will get a bit socially disconnected at times but
| that's about it.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| Well you won't die if you don't have it, no. But all my
| friends, local businesses etc everything is on WhatsApp
| (and telegram for larger groups).
|
| I'd really be an outcast if I didn't use it.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Local business still also work with phone.
|
| I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even
| care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see
| your messages. How useful is that?
|
| In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my
| family abroad and my in law's extended family in another
| continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have
| conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop.
| While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them
| it was important to have other means of communication in
| case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their
| account was suddently banned.
|
| I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in
| primary school but it was mostly useless and full of
| intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked
| at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but
| I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons
| post random memes in it. I went once there only to see
| nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no
| big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be
| spammed all year long with stupid memes.
| stonogo wrote:
| This is not a dumbphone and it runs Whatsapp (and any other
| android app) just fine.
| wiether wrote:
| I'm an European no-Whatsapp guy and so are my friends that I go
| on holiday with so no issue.
|
| Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through
| Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop.
|
| I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the
| planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished.
|
| I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few
| official events that changed place at the last minute. I went
| walking on the beach instead.
|
| And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers
| just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed
| to.
|
| So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay.
|
| In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like
| after actual personal holiday!
|
| Enjoy your Whatsapp!
| mvdwoord wrote:
| Although I also know a handful of (euro) people who do not
| have Whatsapp, and a lot of the "missing out" can indeed be
| absorbed as you described. However, lots of people have a
| need for Whatsapp which cannot simply be ignored by walking
| on the beach. It is all about social trade-offs, personally I
| have almost all apps installed, most of them (or at least the
| group chats) muted. Some friends are signal only, some prefer
| telegram etc... sometimes it is just more "social" for you to
| adapt to a group. If the situation is that others want
| something from you, you can dictate the forms of
| communication, however it is quite legit for people to want
| to be a part of a larger group. No need for snarkiness.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is
| toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the
| train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and
| couldn't get in touch with anyone.
|
| While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many
| European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on
| every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier
| shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore
| because of WhatsApp.
|
| You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same
| group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with
| anyone shouldn't happen.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of
| WhatsApp
|
| Except for the companies that say you should use whatsapp to
| talk to the support desk. That phone number won't be ringing
| a physical phone that someone picks up when you call it
| speedgoose wrote:
| I find it amusing to see the Facebook, XTwitter, and Pinterest
| social buttons at the bottom of the article.
| metadat wrote:
| Also the site attempts to get a geo ping from your browser.
| Icky, to say the least. Makes their claims surrounding privacy
| seem a tad dubious.
| evan_ wrote:
| I thought this was an eInk screen- all of the screenshots show a
| grainy black-and-white UI. I had to dig around to learn that it
| actually has a full-color OLED apparently.
| daneel_w wrote:
| Why this instead of a Pixel 8 or newer running GrapheneOS and no
| requirement for subscriptions?
| wolvoleo wrote:
| Pixel 8 or 9, from 10 it's getting iffy due to Google
| restrictions. 11 probably won't even be supported
| gruez wrote:
| >10 it's getting iffy due to Google restrictions
|
| ???
|
| If you're talking about google delaying the release of
| android causing pixel 10 builds to get delayed, that's mostly
| fixed and there are experimental builds now. Moreover pixel
| 10 was released a few months ago and is already available on
| the latest android. Meanwhile this phone hasn't even been
| released and is supposedly (based on other comments) on
| Android 15, released a year ago.
| wolvoleo wrote:
| As I understand the news from Grapheneos, there's also
| bootloader issues and Google stopped publishing the device
| tree of pixel devices.
|
| They're not even sure if they'll support the 10a when it
| comes out.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| It's not for me, but:
|
| - Google is an American company
|
| - GrapheneOS Pixel support depends on Google's Pixel support
| (and has been affected by Google's decision to open-source less
| of their Pixel trees)
|
| - This OS promises to maintain the usable app store + cloud
| experience
|
| - OS maintenance isn't dependent on a bunch of
| volunteers/donations
|
| - You can just buy this from an official reseller rather than
| making your own or having a sketchy website pre-install a
| custom ROM for you.
|
| I think GrapheneOS has the better developers when it comes to
| privacy and security, but there are reasons to go for the
| reliability of a corporate entity you pay for support over
| hacking together an alternative.
| daneel_w wrote:
| I think these points kind of understate the size, funding and
| determination of the GrapheneOS project.
| zsoltkacsandi wrote:
| EUR699 + EUR9.99/month for a smartphone that supposed to be a
| dumb phone, with a custom locked down OS. Punkt is losing the
| point what made their previous products successful.
|
| I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the
| same amount of time would cost me EUR1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
| damsta wrote:
| I got interested and checked their website, but it gave me a bad
| vibe, not to mention the hefty price tag in addition to the
| subscription.
| _spduchamp wrote:
| For years I've been so close to ordering one of their previous
| generation phones, and now I feel like I've dodged a bullet by
| not buying from this company. This new phone is a huge step in
| the wrong direction.
|
| Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with
| physical keyboard that supports Signal.
| pmkary wrote:
| Yes, I'm in the exact same location.
| lazzurs wrote:
| A physical keyboard like a Treo/Palm Pre, enough storage to
| store all my photos and say GrapheneOS and I would be in.
| layer8 wrote:
| This was just announced:
| https://www.clicksphone.com/en/communicator
|
| Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46467057
| _spduchamp wrote:
| Now THAT is a nice looking device!
| dangus wrote:
| I cannot understand the nostalgia for physical phone keyboards.
| They are an objectively slower typing experience.
|
| I would rather just buy a $20 Bluetooth keyboard if I wanted to
| do some serious typing on a phone. Or maybe get into Samsung
| Dex and similar technologies.
| mistercheph wrote:
| If trying to hawk a subscription-based closed-source fork of open
| source software as privacy preserving or being "Swiss-made"
| weren't sufficient red flags, search the web for MP02, their last
| phone. Basic functionality like calling and texting often don't
| work, and their Signal client never work, they are selling a
| dream. Punkt is basically a scam
| pmkary wrote:
| Well they really destroyed everything that I knew was Punkt:
| Great design, minimalist, e-ink like displays with an android
| cheap design, no e-ink, and Phone as a Service? are you kidding
| us?
| torginus wrote:
| I hope the Swiss broke with their traditions and its not a front
| for the CIA this time
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG
| bflesch wrote:
| I was also thinking about Crypto AG because the punkt website
| goes a long way to not mention a single name of a human being
| who is involved with the company. For example the imprint in
| the footer and the about page does not list who is CEO of the
| company.
| fainpul wrote:
| Ha. That caused quite some reputation damage. However I would
| say infiltration and spying is more of an intelligence agency
| tradition, than a swiss tradition.
| analogpixel wrote:
| go to website, "allow punkt to send you notifications", closed
| website.
|
| based on how they welcome new customers to their site, I can only
| assume this is the general vibe of the company also.
| (aggressively pushing crap)
| qwertox wrote:
| "Website `https://www.punkt.ch` would like to show
| notifications."
|
| Why? What is so important that they need me to notify about?
| ekjhgkejhgk wrote:
| Enable notifications and find out.
| schmuckonwheels wrote:
| Dupe:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46466171
| wiether wrote:
| I love the aesthetics of the objectives/flash looking like an
| induction cooktop!
| 7734128 wrote:
| "www.punkt.ch wants to send you notifications"
|
| Why do websites still do this? It's an immediate red flag that
| the underlying company have no respect for their customers.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| The first thing I do when setting up new Chrome instance, is
| disabling almost every API in its settings, including
| Notifications API. You can always enable it later for a few
| selected websites (I'm using it for Telegram Web), and rest of
| the websites will just silently rejected.
| sallveburrpi wrote:
| It's kind of a given that the average HN reader won't have
| any problems with this (like who is opening a browser without
| ublock origin on it?) - but like 90% of the population are
| powerless against this literal cyber bullying; it's really
| sad
| BizarroLand wrote:
| You could also stop using chrome and switch to waterfox or
| some other mozilla derivative.
|
| If you have a site that "requires" chrome, you can easily add
| a user-agent switcher extension to fool whatever JS nonsense
| that claims to require chrome.
| rationalist wrote:
| I would bet money that 99+% of the population never goes into
| their web browser's settings. Unfortunately I don't know of
| any way to prove or disprove that.
| margalabargala wrote:
| It's so they can notify their customers about their upcoming
| payments for the subscription to continue using the OS on the
| phone they bought.
| jasonvorhe wrote:
| Not even close to security provided by GrapheneOS, ships Android
| 15 and the phone looks quite ugly with that big branding on it.
| I'll stick with GrapheneOS and Pixels.
| userbinator wrote:
| If you don't have root access, you don't have full control.
| arximboldi wrote:
| I own a MP01 that replaced a Nokia 105 that got lost in the
| Berghain after 12 years of service. I regret buying the Punkt. It
| costs more than double than the Nokia and is worse in almost
| every dimension. It is all form over function, with various
| obvious UX issues. I would not buy from this company again.
| sallveburrpi wrote:
| To be fair the Nokia 105 is pretty awesome. Did you find any
| other that is similar?
|
| I still have some ancient burner phones but it would be nice to
| have a recent one that is decent and not too expensive
| arximboldi wrote:
| I'm waiting for the Punkt to die one day before I buy a new
| one, don't wanna create unnecessary waste. In spite of its
| flaws, it is rather robust so it may take a while haha.
|
| There is a 4G edition of the Nokia 105 which would be my next
| option. But I'm thinking maybe if I move to a 4G phone I'd
| like it to have the ability to create a wifi hotspot, which
| none of the cheap Nokias can.
|
| But I dunno, I'm slowly kind of getting tired of the burner
| phone life... It's just getting harder and harder. I spent
| three months in the US this summer and it was impossible
| without one there, even the door of this workshop I was
| visiting needed a fucking app to open the door, so I did buy
| the cheapest Samsung (my first ever smartphone). I'm now back
| in Europe and using the burner phone again, I keep the
| smartphone for the bank app and what not. But... maybe when
| this new GrapheneOS device comes out this year (they promised
| a new non-google device with official OEM support) I may bite
| the bullet... Or maybe one of those ink-display devices...
| antics9 wrote:
| I loved my MP01. However, GSM is not available anymore where I
| live.
|
| I used the CAT S22 for a while but it just isn't the same.
|
| If they release a 5G MP03 I might buy one. I don't see the
| point of a Punkt smartphone.
| metadope wrote:
| > _got lost in the Berghain_
|
| That happened to me once. Took me days to find my way out.
| sallveburrpi wrote:
| I immediately distrust anything privacy based that is marketed by
| the Swiss.
| ekjhgkejhgk wrote:
| > Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-
| based smartphone
|
| Non-starter.
| davidhariri wrote:
| I bought and tried to use the MP02 as a daily driver. Quite
| different from where Punkt is heading now. The industrial design
| is gorgeous, but the software was pretty bad (laggy, unintuitive
| navigation - Android on such a low powered chip was a bad
| choice). I can guess why, but it baffles me they didn't jump on
| the growing demand for dumbphones. If they had just released an
| MP03 with identical form factor but improved battery life,
| latency and screen improvements, I would have bought one in a
| heartbeat.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Seems like this AphyOS is de-googled android, not sure if they
| use MicroG but apart from FAQ there's no mention of 'Android'.
|
| Being android the trade off between convinience and privacy might
| be lesser than a purpose built Linux Phone like Librem. Their
| marketing copy suggests it's not for the same audience as say
| Librem or Graphene OS phone.
|
| Ofcourse many of their advertised privacy features can be
| achieved for cheap with any LineageOS/postmarket OS phone with
| self-hosted Nextcloud.
| mvkel wrote:
| Huge disappointment that it's just a glass rectangle with a
| modified OS.
|
| What made previous Punkt models cool is that they were "dumb+"
| phones. They did what you needed them to, and nothing else. In
| exchange, you got a device that fit easily in your pocket.
|
| Now that it's a big touch screen, you've got apps, complexity,
| and ultimately no differentiator from any other smartphone.
| utopiah wrote:
| AphyOS? OK checking "Free & Open Source Software" cool... but no
| link to repositories on their Webpage, not a great sign. Found
| https://github.com/orgs/AphyOS/repositories but 2024 so clearly
| not the main repos, found https://gerrit.aphy.ag/admin/repos via
| https://aphy.guide/docs/developers/platform/source-code-mana...
|
| So... FLOSS doesn't mean external contributions but did anybody
| review this, like security audit, submitting issues, anything?
| It's the first time I hear about it.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| > Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-
| based smartphone
|
| Nope Nope Nope nope Nope Nope Nope
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| Had me at "control your data", lost me at "monthly subscription".
|
| Damn, so close.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Love the concept, hate the idea of a EUR120/year subscription for
| the OS alone.
|
| It's also slightly upsetting that both Punkt and Apostrophy's
| websites refuse to mention "AphyOS" is an Android-based OS, which
| is 100% relevant for a purchase decision.
| lucb1e wrote:
| It could be more prominent but it's mentioned in the tech
| specs. And it assumes that readers know that AOSP means
| Android... I don't know either why they hide it so much but
| it's sorta on there
| fainpul wrote:
| If they're going to provide updates or privacy as a subscription,
| it would be much more interesting to offer the device for free,
| with just the $/EUR/CHF 10 fee per month.
|
| Stop the subscription and you have to return the device. The fee
| includes some margin for insurance and refurbishing. Then it's
| clearly "renting a phone" and the cost is similar to buying an
| expensive phone and using it for a couple of years.
| 0manrho wrote:
| > If you don't pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03,
| you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
|
| Ah yes, more dystopian "You'll own nothing, and rent everything,
| including your own data" products. That's a hard no, do not pass
| go from me.
|
| Technology has been enshittified enough, stop being part of the
| problem, and certainly don't try to pretend you're doing me a
| favor or protecting my privacy by holding my devices and/or data
| captive unless I pay an indefinite renters fee.
|
| If they aren't selling the data, then why the hell do they want
| it? Want to protect my privacy? Sell me the damn device, let me
| do as I please with it, and let that be the end of the
| transaction. Keep your damn telemetry, backdoors, dark patterns,
| bloatware and subscription bullshit off it.
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