[HN Gopher] Professional software developers don't vibe, they co...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Professional software developers don't vibe, they control
        
       Author : dpflan
       Score  : 76 points
       Date   : 2025-12-30 20:06 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (arxiv.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (arxiv.org)
        
       | game_the0ry wrote:
       | > Through field observations (N=13) and qualitative surveys
       | (N=99)...
       | 
       | Not a statistically significant sample size.
        
         | superjose wrote:
         | Same thoughts exactly.
        
         | HPsquared wrote:
         | Significance depends on effect size.
        
         | bee_rider wrote:
         | 97 samples is enough to get a 95% confidence level if you
         | accept a 10% margin of error. 99 is not so bad, at least.
         | 
         | https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/
        
         | flurie wrote:
         | This is a qualitative methods paper, so statistical
         | significance is not relevant. The rough qualitative equivalent
         | would instead be "data saturation" (responses generally look
         | like ones you've received already) and "thematic saturation"
         | (you've likely found all the themes you will find through this
         | method of data collection). There's an intuitive quality to
         | determining the number of responses needed based on the topic
         | and research questions, but this looks to me like they have
         | achieved sufficient thematic saturation based on the results.
        
       | runtimepanic wrote:
       | The title is doing a lot of work here. What resonated with me is
       | the shift from "writing code" to "steering systems" rather than
       | the hype framing. Senior devs already spend more time
       | constraining, reviewing, and shaping outcomes than typing syntax.
       | AI just makes that explicit. The real skill gap isn't prompt
       | cleverness, it's knowing when the agent is confidently wrong and
       | how to fence it in with tests, architecture, and invariants. That
       | part doesn't scale magically.
        
         | llmslave2 wrote:
         | Does using an LLM to craft Hackernews comments count as
         | "steering systems"?
        
           | coip wrote:
           | You're totally right! It's not steering systems -- it's
           | cooking, apparently
        
         | AlotOfReading wrote:
         | It's difficult to steer complex systems correctly, because no
         | one has a complete picture of the end goal at the outset.
         | That's why waterfall fails. Writing code agentically means you
         | have to go out of your way to think deeply about what you're
         | building, because it won't be forced on you by the act of
         | writing code. If your requirements are complex, they might
         | actually be a hindrance because you're going have to learn
         | those lessons from failed iterations instead of avoiding them
         | preemptively.
        
         | asmor wrote:
         | Is anyone else getting more mentally exhausted by this? I get
         | more done, but I also miss the relaxing code typing in the
         | middle of the process.
        
           | simonw wrote:
           | Yes, absolutely, I can be mentally wiped out by lunch.
        
           | jghn wrote:
           | That's kind of the point here. Once a dev reached a certain
           | level, they often weren't doing much "relaxing code typing"
           | anyways before the AI movement. I don't find it to be much
           | different than being a tech lead, architect, or similar role.
        
             | remich wrote:
             | As a former tech lead and now staff engineer, I definitely
             | agree with this. I read a blog post a couple of months ago
             | that theorized that the people that would adopt these
             | technologies the best were people in the exact roles that
             | you describe. I think because we were already used to
             | having to rely on other people to execute on our plans and
             | ideas because they were simply too big to accomplish by
             | ourselves. Now that we have agents to do these things, it's
             | not really all that different - although it is a different
             | management style working around their limitations.
        
           | tikimcfee wrote:
           | Ya know, I have to admit feeling something like this.
           | Normally, the amount of stuff I put together in a work day
           | offers a sense of completion or even a bit of a dopamine bump
           | because of a "job well done". With this recent work I've been
           | doing, it's instead felt like I've been spending a multiplier
           | more energy communicating intent instead of doing the work
           | myself; that communication seems to be making me more tired
           | than the work itself. Similar?
        
             | whynotminot wrote:
             | It feels like we all signed up to be ICs, but now we're
             | middle managers and our reports are bots.
        
             | perfmode wrote:
             | You're possibly not entering into the flow state anymore.
             | 
             | Flow is effortless. and it is rejuvenating.
             | 
             | I believe:
             | 
             | While communication can be satisfying, it's not as
             | rejuvenating as resting in our own Being and simply
             | allowing the action to unfold without mental contraction.
             | 
             | Flow states.
             | 
             | When the right level of challenge and capability align and
             | you become intimate with the problem. The boundaries of me
             | and the problem dissolve and creativity springs forth.
             | Emerging satisfied. Nourished.
        
           | teaearlgraycold wrote:
           | I like to alternate focusing on AI wrangling and writing code
           | the old fashioned way.
        
           | bugglebeetle wrote:
           | Nah, I don't miss at all typing all the tests, CLIs, and APIs
           | I've created hundreds of times before. I dunno if I it's
           | because I do ML stuff, but it's almost all "think a lot about
           | something, do some math, and and then type thousands of lines
           | of the same stuff around the interesting work."
        
           | mupuff1234 wrote:
           | For me it's the opposite, I'm wasting less energy over
           | debugging silly bugs and fighting/figuring out some annoying
           | config.
           | 
           | But it does feel less fulfilling I suppose.
        
           | agumonkey wrote:
           | I think there are two groups of people emerging. deep / fast
           | / craft-and-decomposition-loving vs black box / outcome-only.
           | 
           | I've seen people unable to work at average speed on small
           | features suddenly reach above average output through a llm
           | cli and I could sense the pride in them. Which is at odds
           | with my experience of work.. I love to dig down, know a lot,
           | model and find abstractions on my own. There a llm will 1)
           | not understand how my brain work 2) produce something
           | workable but that requires me to stretch mentally.. and most
           | of the time I leave numb. In the last month I've seen many
           | people expressing similar views.
        
             | sanufar wrote:
             | I think for me, the difference really comes down to how
             | much ownership I want to take in regards to the project. If
             | it's something like a custom kernel that I'm building, the
             | real fun is in reading through docs, learning about
             | systems, and trying to craft the perfect abstractions; but
             | if it's wiring up a simple pipeline that sends me a text
             | whenever my bus arrives, I'm happy to let an LLM crank that
             | out for me.
             | 
             | I've realized that a lot of my coding is on this personal
             | satisfaction vs utility matrix and llms let me focus a lot
             | more energy onto high satisfaction projects
        
             | remich wrote:
             | I get what you're saying, but I would say that this does
             | not match my own experience. For me, prior to the agentic
             | coding era, the problem was always that I had way more
             | ideas for features, tools, or projects than I had the
             | capacity to build when I had to confront the work of
             | building everything by hand, also dealing with the
             | inevitable difficulties in procrastination and getting
             | started.
             | 
             | I am a very above-average engineer when it comes to speed
             | at completing work well, whether that's typing speed or
             | comprehension speed, and still these tools have felt like
             | giving me a jetpack for my mind. I can get things done in
             | weeks that would have taken me months before, and that
             | opens up space to consider new areas that I wouldn't have
             | even bothered exploring before because I would not have had
             | the time to execute on them well.
        
             | ronsor wrote:
             | The sibling comments (from remich and sanufar) match my
             | experience.
             | 
             | 1. I do love getting into the details of code, but I don't
             | mind having an LLM handle boilerplate.
             | 
             | 2. There isn't a binary between having an LLM generate all
             | the code and writing it all myself.
             | 
             | 3. I still do most of the design work because LLMs often
             | make questionable design decisions.
             | 
             | 4. Sometimes I simply want a program to solve a purpose
             | (outcome-focused) over a project to work on (craft-
             | focused). Sometimes I need a small program in order to
             | focus on the larger project, and being able to delegate
             | that work has made it more enjoyable.
        
               | zahlman wrote:
               | > I do love getting into the details of code, but I don't
               | mind having an LLM handle boilerplate.
               | 
               | My usual thought is that boilerplate tells me, by
               | existing, where the system is most flawed.
               | 
               | I do like the idea of having a tool that quickly patches
               | the problem while also forcing me to think about its
               | presence.
               | 
               | > There isn't a binary between having an LLM generate all
               | the code and writing it all myself. I still do most of
               | the design work because LLMs often make questionable
               | design decisions.
               | 
               | One workflow that makes sense to me is to have the LLM
               | commit on a branch; fix simple issues instead of trying
               | to make it work (with all the worry of context
               | poisoning); refactor on the same branch; merge; and then
               | repeat for the next feature -- starting more or less from
               | scratch except for the agent config (CLAUDE.md etc.).
               | Does that sound about right? Maybe you do something less
               | formal?
               | 
               | > Sometimes I simply want a program to solve a purpose
               | (outcome-focused) over a project to work on (craft-
               | focused). Sometimes I need a small program in order to
               | focus on the larger project, and being able to delegate
               | that work has made it more enjoyable.
               | 
               | Yeah, that sounds about right.
        
             | zahlman wrote:
             | > deep / fast / craft-and-decomposition-loving vs black box
             | / outcome-only
             | 
             | As a (self-reported) craft-and-decomposition lover, I
             | wouldn't call the process "fast".
             | 
             | Certainly it's much faster than if I were trying to take
             | the same approach without the same skills; and certainly I
             | could slow it down with over-engineering. (And "deep"
             | absolutely fits.) But the people I've known that I'd
             | characterize as strongly "outcome-only", were certainly
             | capable of sustaining some pretty high delta-LoC per day.
        
           | SJMG wrote:
           | I think it's the serial waiting game and inevitable context
           | switching while you wait.
           | 
           | Long iteration cycles are taxing
        
         | codeformoney wrote:
         | The stereotype that writing code is for junior developers needs
         | to die. Some devs are hired with lofty titles specifically for
         | their programming aptitude and esoteric systems knowlege, not
         | to play implementation telephone with inexperienced devs.
        
           | remich wrote:
           | I don't think that anyone actually believes that writing code
           | is only for junior developers. That seems to be a significant
           | exaggeration at the very least. However, it is definitely
           | true that most organizations of this size are hiring people
           | into technical lead, staff engineer, or principal engineer
           | roles are hiring those people not only for their individual
           | expertise, or ability to apply that expertise themselves, but
           | also for their ability to use that expertise as a force
           | multiplier to make other less experienced people better at
           | the craft.
        
       | lesuorac wrote:
       | > Most Recent Task for Survey
       | 
       | > Number of Survey Respondents
       | 
       | > Building apps 53
       | 
       | > Testing 1
       | 
       | I think this sums up everybody complaints about AI generated
       | code. Don't ask me to be the one to review work you didn't even
       | check.
        
         | rco8786 wrote:
         | Yea. Nobody wants to be a full-time code reviewer.
        
           | jaggederest wrote:
           | Hi it's me, the guy who wants to be a full-time code
           | reviewer.
        
             | nemo wrote:
             | Be careful what you wish for.
        
       | 4b11b4 wrote:
       | I like to think of it as "maintaining fertile soil"
        
       | banbangtuth wrote:
       | You know what. After seeing all these articles about AI/LLM for
       | these past 4 years, about how they are going to replace me as
       | software developers and about how I am not productive enough
       | without using 5 agents and being a project manager.
       | 
       | I. Don't. Care.
       | 
       | I don't even care about those debates outside. Debates about do
       | LLM work and replace programmers? Say they do, ok so what?
       | 
       | I simply have too much fun programming. I am just a mere
       | fullstack business line programmer, generic random replaceable
       | dude, you can find me dime a dozen.
       | 
       | I do use LLM as Stack Overflow/docs replacement, but I always
       | code by hand all my code.
       | 
       | If you want to replace me, replace me. I'll go to companies that
       | need me. If there are no companies that need my skill, fine, then
       | I'll just do this as a hobby, and probably flip burgers outside
       | to make a living.
       | 
       | I don't care about your LLM, I don't care about your agent, I
       | probably don't even care about the job prospects for that matter
       | if I have to be forced to use tools that I don't like and to use
       | workflows I don't like. You can go ahead find others who are
       | willing to do it for you.
       | 
       | As for me, I simply have too much fun programming. Now if you
       | excuse me, I need to go have fun.
        
         | agentifysh wrote:
         | having fun isn't tied to employment unless you are self-
         | employed even then what's fun should not be the driving force
        
           | banbangtuth wrote:
           | Why? It is a matter of values. Fun can be a driving force
           | just like money and stability is. It is simply a matter of
           | your values (and your sacrifices).
           | 
           | Like I said, I am just a generic replaceable dime a dozen
           | programmer dude.
        
             | agentifysh wrote:
             | you dont get paid to have fun but to produce as a laborer
             | 
             | a job isn't supposed to be fun its nice when it is but it
             | shouldn't be what drives decisions
        
               | banbangtuth wrote:
               | You mean it shouldn't be the driving force of your
               | employer to make decision. Yes I agree 10000%
               | 
               | I meant it can be your (not necessarily your employer)
               | driving decision in life.
               | 
               | Of course, you need to suffer. That's about having
               | tradeoffs.
        
               | agentifysh wrote:
               | almost all employers are going to expect you to use AI
               | and produce more with it
               | 
               | you can definitely choose not to participate and give the
               | opportunity someone who are happy to use AI and still
               | have fun with it.
        
               | tikhonj wrote:
               | most organizations have awful leadership, sure
               | 
               | but that doesn't mean you can't (or shouldn't) work
               | around it
        
           | llmslave2 wrote:
           | That sounds miserable to me :(
        
             | agentifysh wrote:
             | you work on somebody's dime, its no longer your choice
        
               | llmslave2 wrote:
               | It's my life, it's my choice.
        
               | zem wrote:
               | it's your choice whose dime you work on. they can compete
               | for your work by making it fun for you.
        
               | agentifysh wrote:
               | sure unemployment is also a choice
        
               | zem wrote:
               | fun work > tedious work > unemployment
               | 
               | not sure why so many people feel like factoring fun into
               | what job you want to take is so unthinkable, or that it's
               | just a false dichotomy between the ideal job and
               | unemployment
        
           | lifetimerubyist wrote:
           | "get a job doing something you enjoy and you'll never work a
           | day in your life"
           | 
           | or something like that
        
         | llmslave2 wrote:
         | I simply will not spend my life begging and coaxing a machine
         | to output working code. If that is what becomes of this
         | profession, I will just do something else :)
        
           | aspenmartin wrote:
           | It would definitely be the profession if we stopped
           | developing things today. Think about the idea of coding
           | agents 2 years ago, I personally found them very unrealistic
           | and am now coding exclusively with them despite them being
           | either a neutral or net negative to my development time
           | simply because I see the writing on the wall that in 6 mos to
           | a year they will probably be a huge net positive and in 2-3
           | years the dismissive attitude towards adoption will start to
           | look kind of silly (no offense). To me we are _just_ at the
           | inflection point where using and not using coding agents are
           | both totally sensible decisions.
        
           | ryanobjc wrote:
           | If I wanted to do that, I'd just move into engineering
           | management and work with something less temperamental and
           | predictable - humans.
           | 
           | I'd at least be more likely to get a boost in impact and
           | ability to affect decision making, maybe.
        
             | lifetimerubyist wrote:
             | Until you realize you're just begging and coaxing a human
             | to better beg and coax a machine to output working code -
             | when you could just beg and coax the machine yourself.
        
               | llmslave2 wrote:
               | At least I'd be the one interfacing with a human instead
               | of a machine :P
        
         | yacthing wrote:
         | Easy to say if you either:
         | 
         | (1) already have enough money to survive without working, or
         | 
         | (2) don't realize how hard of a life it would be to "flip
         | burgers" to make a living in 2026.
         | 
         | We live very good lives as software developers. Don't be a fool
         | and think you could just "flip burgers" and be fine.
        
           | banbangtuth wrote:
           | Ah, I actually did flip burgers. So I know.
           | 
           | I also did dry cleaning, cleaning service, deli, delivery
           | guy, etc.
           | 
           | Yup I now have enough money to survive without working.
           | 
           | But I also am very low maintenance, thanks to my early life
           | being raised in harsh conditions.
           | 
           | I am not scared to go back flipping burgers again.
        
         | lifetimerubyist wrote:
         | Hear hear. I didn't spend half my life getting an education,
         | competing in the corporate crab bucket, retraining and
         | upskilling just to turn into a robot babysitter.
        
       | websiteapi wrote:
       | we've never seen a profession drive themselves so aggressively to
       | irrelevance. software engineering will always exist, but it's
       | amazing the pace to which pressure against the profession is
       | rising. 2026 will be a very happy new year indeed for those
       | paying the salaries. :)
        
         | zwnow wrote:
         | Also it really baffles me how many are actually in on the hype
         | train. Its a lot more than the crypto bros back in the day.
         | Good thing AI still cant reason and innovate stuff. Also
         | leaking credentials is a felony in my country so I also wont
         | ever attach it to my codebases.
        
           | fragmede wrote:
           | your credentials shouldn't be in your codebase to begin with!
        
             | zwnow wrote:
             | .env files are a thing in tons of codebases
        
               | iwontberude wrote:
               | but thats at runtime, secrets are going to be deployed in
               | a secure manner after the code is released
        
               | zwnow wrote:
               | .env files are used to develop as well, for some things
               | like PayPal u dont have to change the credentials, you
               | just enable sandbox mode. If I had some LLM attached to
               | my codebase, it would be able to read those credentials
               | from the .env file.
               | 
               | This has nothing to do with deployment. I never talked
               | about deployment.
        
               | Carrok wrote:
               | If you have your PayPal creds in your repository, you are
               | doing it wrong.
        
               | mkozlows wrote:
               | If your secrets are in your repo, you've probably already
               | leaked them.
        
           | aspenmartin wrote:
           | I think the issue is folks talk past each other. People who
           | find coding agents useful or enjoyable are labeled "on the
           | hype train" and folks for which coding agents don't work for
           | them or their workflow are considered luddites. There are an
           | incredible number of contradicting claims and predictions out
           | there as well, and I believe what we see is folks projecting
           | their reaction to some amalgamation of them onto others. I
           | see a lot of "they" language, and a lot of viral articles
           | about business leadership "shoving AI down our throats" and
           | it becomes a divisive issue like American political scene
           | with really no one having a real conversation
        
             | zwnow wrote:
             | Its all a hype train though. People still believe in the AI
             | gonna bring utopia bullshit while the current infra is
             | being built on debt. The only reason it still exists is
             | that all these AI companies believe in some kind of revenue
             | outside of subscriptions. So its all about:
             | 
             | Owning the infrastructure and enshittify (ads) once enough
             | products are based on AI.
             | 
             | Its the same chokehold Amazon has on its Vendors.
        
             | llmslave2 wrote:
             | I think the reason for the varying claims and predictions
             | is because developers have wildly different standards for
             | what constitutes working code. For the developers with a
             | lower threshold, AI is like crack to them because gen ai's
             | output is similar to what they would produce, and it really
             | is a 10x speedup. For others, especially those who have to
             | fix and maintain that code, it's more like a 10x slowdown.
             | 
             | Hence why you have in the same thread, some developer who
             | claims that Claude writes 99% of their code and another
             | developer who finds it totally useless. And of course
             | others who are somewhere in the middle.
        
               | throw1235435 wrote:
               | There's also the effect of different models. Until the
               | most recent models, especially for concise algorithms, I
               | felt it was still easier to sometimes do it myself (i.e.
               | a good algo can be concise/more concise than a lossy
               | prompt) and leave the "expansion/repetitive" boilerplate
               | code to the LLM. At least for me the latest models do
               | feel like a "step change" in that the problems can be
               | bigger and/or require less supervision on each problem
               | depending on the tradeoff you want.
        
               | remich wrote:
               | Have you considered that it's a bit dismissive to assume
               | that developers who find use out of AI tools necessarily
               | approve of worse code than you do, or have lower
               | standards?
               | 
               | It's fine to be a skeptic. Or to have tried out these
               | tools and found that they do not work well for your
               | particular use case at this moment in time. But you
               | shouldn't assume that people who do get value out of them
               | are not as good at the job as you are, or are dumber than
               | you are, or slower than you are. That's just not a good
               | practice and is also rude.
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | We've been giving our work away to each other for free as open
         | source to help improve each other's productivity for 30+ years
         | now and that's only made our profession more valuable.
        
           | websiteapi wrote:
           | I see little proof open source has resulted in higher wages
           | and not the fact that everything is being digitized and the
           | subsequent demand for such people to assist in such.
        
             | simonw wrote:
             | I'm not sure how I can prove it, but ~25 years ago building
             | software without open source _sucked_. You had to build
             | everything from scratch! It took months to get even the
             | most basic things up and running.
             | 
             | I think open source is the single most important
             | productivity boost to our industry that's ever existed.
             | Automated testing is a close second.
             | 
             | Google, Facebook, many others would not have existed
             | without open source to build on.
             | 
             | And those giants and others like them that were enabled by
             | open source employed a TON of people, at competitive rates
             | that greatly increased our salaries.
        
               | websiteapi wrote:
               | even if that's true it's clear enough AI will reduce the
               | demand for swe
        
               | simonw wrote:
               | I don't think that's certain. I'm hoping for a Jevons
               | paradox situation where AI drives down the cost of
               | producing software to the point that companies that
               | previously weren't in the market for custom software
               | start hiring software engineers. I think we could see
               | demand go up.
        
               | throw1235435 wrote:
               | Indeed it did; I remember those times. All else being
               | equal I still think SWE salaries on average would of been
               | higher if we kept it like that given basic economics -
               | there would of been a lot less people capable of doing it
               | but the high ROI automation opportunities would of still
               | been there. The fact that "it sucked" usually creates
               | more scarcity on the supply side; which all being equal
               | means higher wages and in our capitalist society -
               | status. Other professions that are older as to the parent
               | comment already know this and don't see SWE as very
               | "street smart" disrupting themselves. I've seen articles
               | recently like "at least we aren't in coding" from law,
               | accounting, etc an an anecdote to this.
               | 
               | With AI at least locally I'm seeing the opposite now -
               | less hiring, less wage pressure and in social circles a
               | lot less status when I mention I'm a SWE (almost sympathy
               | for my lot vs respect only 5 years ago). While I don't
               | care for the status aspect, although I do care for my
               | ability to earn money, some do.
               | 
               | At least locally inflation adjusted in my city SWE wages
               | bought more and were higher in general compared to others
               | in the 90's-2000's than on wards (ex big tech). Partly
               | because this difficulty and low level knowledge meant
               | only very skilled people could participate.
        
               | ipdashc wrote:
               | > ex big tech
               | 
               | I mean, this seems like a pretty big thing to leave out,
               | no? That's where all the crazy high salaries were!
               | 
               | Also, there are still legacy places that more or less
               | build software like it's 1999. I get the impression that
               | embedded, automotive, and such still rely a lot on
               | proprietary tools, finicky manual processes, low level
               | languages (obviously), etc. But those are notorious for
               | being annoying and not very well paid.
        
               | throw1235435 wrote:
               | Well globally it is a drop in the ocean compared to most
               | tech jobs - I'm talking about what I perceive to be the
               | median affected somewhat by my locality. My point is more
               | that I remember back in that period good salaries could
               | be had outside big tech too even in the boring standard
               | companies that you state. I remember banks, insurance,
               | etc paying very well for example compared to today for an
               | SWE/tech worker. Now at best they are on par with other
               | professional white collar workers; and the competition
               | seems fiercer (e.g. 5 interviews for a similar salary to
               | other professional workers).
               | 
               | Making software easier and more abstract has allowed less
               | technical people into the profession, allowed easier
               | outsourcing, meant more competition/interview prep to
               | filter out people (even if the skills are not used in the
               | job at all), etc.
        
               | christophilus wrote:
               | 25 years ago, I was slinging apps together super fast
               | using VB6. It was awesome. It was a level of productivity
               | few modern stacks can approach.
        
           | fshacf wrote:
           | Then shit suckers like you scraped it all, ignored the
           | licensing, and sold it back to the very people you took from
           | for a premium.
        
       | andy99 wrote:
       | Is the title an ironic play on AI's trademark writing style, is
       | it AI generated, or is the style just rubbing off on people?
        
         | mattnewton wrote:
         | I think it's a popular style before gen ai and the training
         | process of LLMs picked up on that.
        
           | andy99 wrote:
           | That's not how LLMs work, it's part of the reinforcement
           | learning or SFT dataset, data labelers would have written or
           | generated tons of examples using this and other patterns (all
           | the emoji READMEs for example) that the models emulate. The
           | early ones had very formulaic essay style outputs that always
           | ended with "in conclusion", lots of the same kind of bullet
           | lists, and a love of adjectives and delving, all of which
           | were intentionally trained in. It's more subtle now but it's
           | still there.
        
             | mattnewton wrote:
             | Maybe I was being imprecise, but I'm not sure what you mean
             | by "not how LLMs work" - discovering patterns of how humans
             | write is exactly the signal they are trained against.
             | Either explicitly curated like SFT or coaxed out during
             | RLHF, no?
             | 
             | It could even have been picked up in pretraining and then
             | rewarded during rlhf when the output domain was being
             | refined; I haven't used enough LLMs before post training to
             | know what step it usually becomes noticeable.
        
       | zwnow wrote:
       | Idk, I still mostly avoid using it and if I do, I just copy and
       | paste shit into the Claude web version. I wont ever manage agents
       | as that sounds just as complicated as coding shit myself.
        
         | lexandstuff wrote:
         | It's not complicated at all. You don't "manage agents". You
         | just type your prompt into an terminal application that can
         | update files, read your docs and run your tests.
         | 
         | As with every new tech there's a hell of a lot of noise
         | (plugins, skills, hooks, MCP, LSP - to quote Kaparthy) but most
         | of it can just be disregarded. No one is "behind" - it's all
         | very easy to use.
        
       | simonw wrote:
       | This is pretty recent - the survey they ran (99 respondents) was
       | August 18 to September 23 2025 and the field observations
       | (watching developers for 45 minute then a 30 minute interview, 13
       | participants) were August 1 to October 3.
       | 
       | The models were mostly GPT-5 and Claude Sonnet 4. The study was
       | too early to catch the 5.x Codex or Claude 4.5 models (bar one
       | mention of Sonnet 4.5.)
       | 
       | This is notable because a lot of academic papers take 6-12 months
       | to come out, by which time the LLM space has often moved on by an
       | entire model generation.
        
         | dheera wrote:
         | > academic papers take 6-12 months to come out
         | 
         | It takes about 6 months to figure out how to get LaTeX to
         | position figures where you want them, and then another 6 months
         | to fight with reviewers
        
         | joenot443 wrote:
         | Thanks Simon - always quick on the draw.
         | 
         | Off your intuition, do you think the same study with Codex 5.2
         | and Opus 4.5 would see even better results?
        
           | simonw wrote:
           | Depends on the participants. If they're cutting-edge LLM
           | users then yes, I think so. If they continue to use LLMs like
           | they would have back in the first half of 2025 I'm not sure
           | if a difference would be noticeable.
        
             | mkozlows wrote:
             | I'm not remotely cutting edge (just switched from Cursor to
             | Codex CLI, have no fancy tooling infrastructure, am not
             | even vaguely considering git worktrees as a means of
             | working), but Opus 4.5 and 5.2 Codex are both so clearly
             | more competent than previous models that I've started just
             | telling them to do high-level things rather than trying to
             | break things down and give them subtasks.
             | 
             | If people are really set in their ways, maybe they won't
             | try anything beyond what old models can do, and won't
             | notice a difference, but who's had time to get set in their
             | ways with this stuff?
        
               | christophilus wrote:
               | I mostly agree, but today, Opus 4.5 via Claude code did
               | something pretty dumb stuff in my codebase-- N queries
               | where one would do, deep array comparison where a
               | reference equality check would suffice, very complex web
               | of nested conditionals which a competent developer would
               | have never written, some edge cases where the backend
               | endpoints didn't properly verify user permissions before
               | overwriting data, etc.
               | 
               | It's still hit or miss. The product "worked" when I
               | tested it as a black box, but the code had a lot of rot
               | in it already.
               | 
               | Maybe that stuff no longer matters. Maybe it does. Time
               | will tell.
        
               | remich wrote:
               | I have had a lot of success lately when working with Opus
               | 4.5 using both the Beads task tracking system and the
               | array of skills under the umbrella of Bad Dave's Robot
               | Army. I don't have a link handy, but you should be able
               | to find it on GitHub. I use the specialized skills for
               | different review tasks (like Architecture Review,
               | Performance Review, Security Review, etc.) on every
               | completed task in addition to my own manual review, and I
               | find that that helps to keep things from getting out of
               | hand.
        
             | drbojingle wrote:
             | What's the difference between using llms now vs the first
             | half of 2025 among the best users?
        
       | zkmon wrote:
       | I haven't seen the definition of an agent, in the paper. Do they
       | differentiate agents from generic online chat interfaces?
        
         | esafak wrote:
         | An agent takes actions. Chat bots only return text.
        
       | senshan wrote:
       | Excellent survey, but one has to be careful when participating in
       | such surveys:
       | 
       |  _" I'm on disability, but agents let me code again and be more
       | productive than ever (in a 25+ year career). - S22"_
       | 
       | Once Social Security Administration learns this, there goes the
       | disability benefit...
        
         | LoganDark wrote:
         | I think you eventually lose disability benefits anyway once you
         | start making money.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2025-12-30 23:00 UTC)