[HN Gopher] I'm a laptop weirdo and that's why I like my new Fra...
___________________________________________________________________
I'm a laptop weirdo and that's why I like my new Framework 13
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 257 points
Date : 2025-12-26 12:27 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.matthewbrunelle.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.matthewbrunelle.com)
| 999900000999 wrote:
| >You can't change the RAM on laptops now. >You can't change the
| SSD on laptops now.
|
| I literally just brought a laptop 3 weeks ago and I've already
| upgraded both of those. It's a newer model with an RTX GPU.
|
| I think framework has potential, but it's going to be a decade to
| see how things pan out. Will I be able to use the same mainboard
| for a decade?
|
| So far what I'm seeing is a laptop brand which charges between
| 50% and 100% more with strange customer support issues and a
| limited service network.
|
| If you're thinking about reducing waste , buy a refurbished
| Thinkpad.
| newsclues wrote:
| You can buy a new mainboard for a framework...
| simonh wrote:
| Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more
| storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your
| upgrades in first at no extra cost.
|
| If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get
| a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the
| argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability
| headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard
| upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current
| chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
| chocochunks wrote:
| Until recently with the recent madness it was almost always
| cheaper to buy a base model then upgrade RAM and storage
| yourself.
| blauditore wrote:
| In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises.
| People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so
| it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old
| computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and
| did a few minor upgrades over the years.
|
| Of course, warranty and support quality is a different
| question.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| > Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
|
| Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard.
| Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And
| they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not
| exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old
| mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a
| NUC
| 999900000999 wrote:
| The mainboards typically cost as much as a new laptop.
|
| What really excites me is the prospect of 3rd party
| mainboards and other components. This ecosystem is still just
| getting started though.
|
| It seems like this is the beta product, I'll wait for the
| finished one.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| They don't?
|
| Ryzen 340 mainboard: $450
| https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-
| ai300?v=FRANTE0005
|
| Ryzen 340 laptop: $1100
| https://frame.work/products/laptop13-amd-
| ai300/configuration...
|
| Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component,
| but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to
| the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Your comparing Framework to itself.
|
| https://slickdeals.net/f/18984394-hp-omnibook-5-16-fhd-
| ips-r...
|
| HP OmniBook 5 16 with an Ryzen 350 for 439$.
|
| This is actually less than the framework mainboard for a
| full laptop with a better processor.
|
| This actually
| OJFord wrote:
| No they don't, they start at a few hundred. They'd all be
| an upgrade for my bought-at-launch PS750/800ish Framework
| 13.
|
| An upgrade like that does mean I need new (DDR5) RAM too
| though, which tightens the gap a bit (or a byte, at the
| moment).
| OJFord wrote:
| 7 times, for the Fw13.
| nrp wrote:
| We've done seven different versions of Mainboard for
| Framework Laptop 13 already!
|
| * 11th Gen Intel Core
|
| * 12th Gen Intel Core
|
| * Chromebook Edition
|
| * 13th Gen Intel Core
|
| * Ryzen 7040 Series
|
| * Intel Core Ultra Series 1
|
| * Ryzen AI 300 Series
|
| There are a couple of third party boards from DeepComputing
| too.
| rozenmd wrote:
| I love my thinkpad, wrote up my experience with the Thinkpad
| T480 last year:
|
| https://maxrozen.com/replacing-my-macbook-m1-with-thinkpad-t...
|
| and a quick buyers guide here:
|
| https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
| Klonoar wrote:
| The HN thread responding to your T480 article is all that's
| needed to understand why it's not really a replacement for a
| MBP:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34878240
| rozenmd wrote:
| I never said I replaced an MBP with it, but okay, yeah, the
| build quality is not the same.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Lenovo has fantastic recent refurbs. It's a bit of a game,
| but you can find some for around 400$ or less.
|
| My big beef with Macs is I need BIG ssds. If I want to get a
| 4TB SSD on a Macbook it starts at around 3000$. Recently I
| purchased a laptop with 2 SSD slots, although disappointingly
| only one is easy to access.
|
| I'm tempted to go to Microcenter and tell them to replace the
| stock SSD with a 4TB( the stock SSD is the one behind a
| difficult to remove heat sink), and then I'd put another 4 tb
| ssd. Alternatively I could just pay 800$ for a 8TB SSD,
| install it in a laptop that cost around 1300-1500$ and I'm
| only spending 2300$.
|
| On a Mac that's about 5000$. I make music and hate external
| drives with a passion.
| coldpie wrote:
| First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a
| good solution for many people.
|
| For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I
| just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I
| like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I
| like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to
| adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging
| situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing
| little upgrades over time, where things only change a little
| bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade
| the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for
| something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get
| a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same
| laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my
| desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
|
| It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal
| upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's
| other routes for people with other priorities.
| neogodless wrote:
| I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops
| for work machines are somewhat _niche_ (and I 'm in that
| niche).
|
| Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy
| consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone
| gamers...
|
| Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various
| Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy
| desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business
| laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
|
| (I think we'd all do well to remember the _variety_ in
| computers and computer users...)
|
| So yeah, I've rarely bought anything _but_ a gaming laptop that
| could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I 've bought
| non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I
| found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
|
| My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro
| 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year
| old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great
| screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when
| cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been
| reliable, upgradeable, etc. We _don 't_ tend to use them on
| battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily
| for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when
| pulling 100+ W for gaming. (My sister had an older Nitro and
| the quality was lacking, but I've been impressed by my 2023
| model.)
| zerof1l wrote:
| To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can
| repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
|
| I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful
| machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with
| multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off,
| and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy
| replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
| BoredPositron wrote:
| I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts
| pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the
| pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
|
| https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/parts-lookup
| tecoholic wrote:
| Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's
| gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some
| point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all
| this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional"
| laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
|
| While I understand what Framework is doing and the
| repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems
| to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something.
| It's not.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Can you buy a cheap donor laptop and strip it for parts?
| haritha-j wrote:
| I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a
| framework to make sense. But it doesn't. By my math, I could get
| two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the
| flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down
| made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren't strapped for cash
| and appreciate the sustainability, then it's appealing. For me, a
| slightly greener laptop isn't a good enough value proposition.
| Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it
| didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to
| comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis
| and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
|
| > Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
|
| lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days.
| But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD
| has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
| haritha-j wrote:
| I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because
| with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so
| wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of
| a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may
| not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and
| light laptop. I got an Acer for PS500 on sale with a 2nd gen
| intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips
| are actually really good in terms of battery life. If I spec
| a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around
| PS1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a
| lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have,
| as you mentioned.
| yaro330 wrote:
| AMD USB4 is a joke. Every unplug is a gamble with amdgpu
| driver, you might get a working system, you might not, same
| for suspend-resume cycles.
| eviks wrote:
| > Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely
| not.
|
| > I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
|
| What's meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
|
| So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the
| RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than
| before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a
| custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have
| pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
| nfriedly wrote:
| I'm guessing that the author is comparing it to their their M1
| MacBook Pro, which has soldered in RAM and an Apple proprietary
| SSD, that is much more difficult to replace than a standard
| one.
|
| Many laptops do still have replaceable RAM and SSDs, but it's
| not a sure thing these days.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I'd like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of
| experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But
| I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework
| afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already
| done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam,
| keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large
| availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts
| are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it
| seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term
| ownership goals?
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing
| "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true
| their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is
| without that.
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| Relevant to "I'm returning my Framework Laptop" from a day or two
| ago (500+ comments):
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174
|
| I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is
| neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing
| is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a
| modern, extensible system.
|
| My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so
| there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already
| getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| What is beelink doing?
| myself248 wrote:
| Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34.
| (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
|
| First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the
| internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-
| level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could
| now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires
| cable.
|
| Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI
| slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and
| desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines
| with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the
| machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them
| over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but
| D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
|
| This is the only bit I seem to have a photo of:
| https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/255205625/
|
| Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest,
| shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-
| rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the
| magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic
| perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and
| solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo,
| since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
|
| Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another
| internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party
| implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache
| functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB
| mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because
| there's plenty of room up there.
|
| Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics
| and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's
| too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third
| internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack
| freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps
| to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the
| real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a
| crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
|
| Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and
| final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice
| to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out
| to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the
| antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length,
| raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a
| VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked
| just fine.
|
| At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for
| the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its
| obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily
| during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little
| keyboard.
| dijit wrote:
| I love all of this.
|
| I've never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the
| one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire
| 5520g... which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a
| slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
|
| I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a
| lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but
| that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I
| would continue to use it.
| myself248 wrote:
| Yeah, although the low-res screens on older machines are
| pretty limiting with modern UIs too. Try setting 800x600 for
| an hour and see how you fare. I have romantic dreams about
| spinning a new mobo for the Toughbook, but it would _have_ to
| include a screen transplant too. And at that point I probably
| fail a lot of the toughness that made it worthwhile in the
| first place.
| jokoon wrote:
| Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU,
| which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a
| SSD.
|
| Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is
| any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
|
| I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would
| last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on
| its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long
| enough".
| systemtest wrote:
| I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I'm
| an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought
| new at release. I can't replace the memory or storage. But so far
| I didn't need to do that.
|
| In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and
| purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an
| running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to
| repair later. And this is where the international part plays a
| role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new
| MacBook Pro within an hour.
|
| My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not
| working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an
| option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD
| through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate
| wasted.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on
| MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get
| a performant fat client that you can treat like an
| interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
| systemtest wrote:
| Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my
| machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally
| deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is
| more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed
| expendable devices at this point.
| drxzcl wrote:
| All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period
| stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really
| warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
| systemtest wrote:
| Agreed, though for the sake of ergonomics I hardly use the
| built-in keyboard and almost always have an external keyboard
| connected.
| tecoholic wrote:
| Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM
| and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks
| but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery
| if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to
| ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it
| be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of
| any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity
| in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
| systemtest wrote:
| Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can
| break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can
| break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP,
| Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk
| to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I
| quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients
| typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work
| at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while
| Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
|
| A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully
| operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data
| onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
| tecoholic wrote:
| Your initial comment made it seem like, the repairable
| options are just so incovenient to the point where buying a
| new machine was the solution. So my questions were mainly
| around why that would be the case. But, it seems like your
| requirements are pretty stringent to the point nothing
| other than a Time Machine backup compatible machine would
| make sense.
| mft_ wrote:
| OP could make it more generic by removing the Time
| Machine mandate, and instead using any of a raft of
| cloud-based backup options. (e.g. I use pCloud, and my
| approach to a new system is equally quick and pain free.)
|
| Then it just comes down to the time delta between buying
| a new Mac from a shop in a city (assuming you want one of
| the immediately-available specifications) versus waiting
| for Framework parts of be delivered. Framework could
| optimise this _if it was worth their while_ by having a
| limited number of common replacement items at fast-
| shipping fulfilment centres.
|
| However, in reality it sounds less like a genuine
| question, and more like someone justifying their decision
| to buy a Mac post-hoc with a range of specific
| requirements only a Mac could meet.
| whateverboat wrote:
| > In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and
| purchase a new MacBook Pro. > Not working for a week waiting
| for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
|
| You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is
| internationally available because it is 40 years old and very
| successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that
| successful in 10 years time.
|
| Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no
| need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that
| failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience
| with Framework promises to be much better than experience with
| Macbook.
| least wrote:
| > There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful
| in 10 years time.
|
| They don't have the resources nor is their scope large
| enough. Could that change in 10 years? Maybe, but probably
| not. I'm not even sure it's something they would want to
| replicate. Retail costs a lot of money and the benefits to it
| are quite limited. Similarly a service network that would be
| comparable to one of the larger PC manufacturers would also
| be very expensive.
|
| > Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful,
| no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff
| that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then
| experience with Framework promises to be much better than
| experience with Macbook.
|
| The experience you're describing is still involving a person
| opening up their laptop to replace whatever the failed part
| is, assuming they even know what the failed part is. I'm
| qualified to do those sort of diagnostics on a computer and
| depending on what it is, it'd still be more downtime than
| going to buy/getting a loaner laptop in most cases.
|
| I'm not saying people can't learn that but I know that people
| won't.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
|
| The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen
| it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all
| my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
|
| Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing
| special.
| kombine wrote:
| That's how monopolies are perpetuated.
| konfekt wrote:
| How about buying (and installing) two cheap laptops, say used
| Thinkpads (or Framework!?), and then backing up $HOME (and
| maybe list of installed packages) at one's convenience? These
| are nowadays light enough to carry around when traveling with
| luggage. If deemed too heavy, at least a Thinkpad likely is on
| sale closeby and `dd`ing an ISO image, installing the missing
| packages and copying $HOME should not take too long.
| jdblair wrote:
| I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the
| Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently
| 25.10) on it.
|
| Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and
| compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least
| since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen
| is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as
| a hobby developer.
|
| Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
|
| Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design,
| so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the
| quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is
| on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the
| corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can
| cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself
| to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
|
| I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would
| add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually
| replace every part of this laptop _except_ the case, so I would
| appreciate more durability.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| I tried a coworker's, I was a bit shocked how poor the case is.
| Everything flexes badly, especially the keyboard.
|
| I was considering one, but definitely not worth it. I can get a
| ThinkPad for less and it's much better quality.
| billfor wrote:
| Is it a 13 or 16? I have a Intel gen 12 framework 13 and it
| feels solid except the display is a little wobbly. The
| original display tended to swing in a heavy wind a bit much,
| but they improved the hinge at some point.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| 13.
|
| The entire laptop can be easily and worryingly flexed by
| hand when closed.
|
| The keyboard in particular flexes by more than a millimetre
| when pressing on a key or in between them.
|
| It seems ridiculous when the much cheaper and thinner
| MacBook Air is far stiffer with no noticeable keyboard
| flex.
| jdblair wrote:
| Also, something weird:
|
| I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm
| my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System:
| Intel(r) Core(tm) i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this
| doesn't inspire confidence.
|
| It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
|
| model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
| nrp wrote:
| Could you submit a support ticket around the order record
| issue? We certainly want to determine what happened there:
| https://frame.work/support/
| jdblair wrote:
| Done! Thanks for coming here to read the tough hacker new
| comments. I really like what you're doing with Framework,
| and I hope you are able to keep iterating and improving.
|
| ----
|
| Update: Sorry, there is no mistake! The i7 order was my
| original pre-order, which I canceled. My order is correctly
| recorded.
| abacadaba wrote:
| was close to getting one, more for worry free linux compat than
| for repair, but ended up with a mba instead for now mostly
| because of the touchpad. someday i will have my perfect linux
| laptop. i saw the framework youtube video where they failed
| trying to make a new giant haptic touchpad. don't do this just
| copy the mac. after you copy the mac you can try to improve it
| maybe.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| > Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board
| design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the
| pad)
|
| Wait, are you saying it's not possible to change settings so
| that I can
|
| - single finger tap anywhere for a left click,
|
| - two finger tap anywhere for a right click.
| jckahn wrote:
| No, it is. That's how I use mine.
| gsa wrote:
| I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has
| a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework,
| I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using
| USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times
| a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
|
| I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with
| Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While
| Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of
| generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable.
| The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily
| available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in
| this regard geographically.
|
| That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for
| Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make
| the Thinkpads repairable again.
|
| - [0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T14_Gen_5
| je42 wrote:
| you can switch the ports pretty quickly on framework laptops.
| gsa wrote:
| In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a
| port is not something easily done without putting the
| Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop
| whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it
| over, change the port and then get back to what you were
| doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports
| back in the original order.
| nfriedly wrote:
| Yeah, I agree with this. I find it simpler to just carry a
| couple of usb-c to whatever hub/adapters for when I need to
| a port my framework doesn't have built in.
| least wrote:
| The expansion cards seem pretty gimmicky to me. You're
| replacing a hub with... a bunch of hubs with one port on
| it. I know it opens up to some third party modules (this
| one seems particularly cool: https://github.com/LeoDJ/FW-
| EC-DongleHiderPlus) but for the most part you are getting
| less connectivity than other laptops. You don't even get
| an audio jack without taking up one of your expansion
| slots (edit: on the Framework 16. 13 includes it).
|
| If the expansion slots were larger then they could have
| maybe facilitated something like getting 2 usb-a ports in
| exchange for the one USB-C which feels like an actual
| thing to consider. As it is, it just doesn't feel like
| you're gaining anything. If you're carrying any
| additional expansion cards with you you lose the only
| advantage it has over buying a hub, which can turn that
| one usb-c slot into multiple usb-a ports, ethernet, hdmi,
| audio, sd card reader, etc.
| nfriedly wrote:
| For what it's worth, the 13 does have an audio jack. It's
| only the 16 that requires an addin card for that.
|
| I get what you're coming where you're coming from though.
| For me, the whole package was worth it, but that's
| probably not true for everyone.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| I have a 16, not a 13, but I thought that the module
| swapping system was relatively similar, and this is not at
| _all_ my experience. I just tilt up the bottom, click the
| port lock, and then pull out the module, and put in the new
| one. It takes me less than 10 seconds, all while the
| computer is on and open. So unless they module swap system
| _isn 't_ the same, I would have expected it to be even
| easier on the smaller, lighter 13.
| nfriedly wrote:
| My FW13 has two USB-C ports so I can charge from either side
| and have one free while it's charging, and then USB-A on one
| side and MicroSD on the other.
|
| That covers all of my frequent needs. (My main monitor has
| usb-c input, and I have a couple of inexpensive adapters/hubs
| for HDMI, DP, Ethernet, etc. - all of which are used
| infrequently.)
|
| I was a little concerned before buying it, and four is probably
| the minimum number of ports I could be happy with. But in
| practice I've been very satisfied with my port selection, and
| if you do need more ports, there's always the FW16.
| coldpie wrote:
| I don't know anything at all about hardware engineering, but
| I am surprised they couldn't stuff 2 USB-C ports into one of
| those modules.
| nfriedly wrote:
| Folks have done it in the community forum, and it works
| fine for basic data. It gets tricky when you want to
| support charging, because then you need multiple voltage
| levels and the circuitry to convert between them.
| Apparently video is hard to do also.
| astra1701 wrote:
| The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly
| buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and
| SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard
| such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to
| Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had
| the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key
| and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
|
| This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design
| flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be
| design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very
| weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily
| usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I
| couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW
| corrected this for those customers who really did care by just
| selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a
| screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device!
| (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the
| early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a
| slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of
| stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Exactly - imagine if early MacBook Butterfly keyboard users had
| the option to simply upgrade their keyboard to a fixed version
| for $40...
|
| [1]https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
| vermon wrote:
| One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the
| keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace
| it. Took forever, but at least back then it was not too
| expensive or difficult.
| linsomniac wrote:
| Could have been worse: I replaced a keyboard for a friends
| daughter and her Dell had ~50 plastic studs holding the
| keyboard in place, each one was melted rivet-style. I had
| to remove enough that I could get the keyboard out, but not
| so much that there wasn't still plastic to melt to hold the
| new keyboard in place.
| moltopoco wrote:
| Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful
| because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who
| use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live,
| and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their
| Macs.
| encom wrote:
| This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There
| exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets...
| for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get
| really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is
| an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
| gunalx wrote:
| Not a us user, but ended up with us and uk layout, just
| because they where easier to find. (also works fine for
| programming)
| encom wrote:
| Yea, the danish layout is objectively terrible[1], but I
| have many decades of muscle memory with it now...
|
| [1] Shift+7 == /, AltGr+" == ~. These two in particular
| are tedious as a Linux user.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| The solution is to get blank keycaps. Then it doesn't
| matter.
| eterm wrote:
| It does matter, because the phyiscal keys themselves are
| literally in different places.
|
| Comparison:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1DL1fO6Zs
|
| Note that weird abomination of a backslash key around the
| enter key on the US keyboard.
|
| There's no way to just map the US keyboard to the UK one.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| Sure, I'm familiar with the weird UK layout.
| jenadine wrote:
| It is the US layout that stands out. The UK layout
| follows ISO 9995, which most other countries also follow.
| wpm wrote:
| And I thank god every day we don't. The ISO keyboard is
| awful. Left shift is too important of a key to be 1u. I
| don't need a massive enter key that lives on two rows.
| Just insane choices.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| The big enter key I do like.
|
| But I've ended up using a split keyboard where every key
| is 1u. All language layouts map to the physical layout in
| basically the same way.
| encom wrote:
| Kind of true, but it's an aesthetics issue as well. The
| doubleshot keycaps look so nice :)
| nomel wrote:
| what do you mean?
|
| If you get the key caps, they're trivially swapped.
|
| I use Dvorak, and I've swapped keys for every generation of
| keyboard over the last 10 years. Once swapped, the layout can
| be set system wide.
| Wingman4l7 wrote:
| They're really not -- Mac scissor switches are pretty
| delicate, and it's easy to do damage to the tiny plastic
| nubs on the keycaps or the switches... and if you damage
| the metal retaining frame in any way, you're toast (Mac
| laptop keyboards are virtually unreplaceable, being buried
| in the "bottom" of the unibody chassis).
| LTL_FTC wrote:
| I think they mean different regions have physically
| different layouts. I supported users in different countries
| and know that French layouts are different than Hebrew
| layouts which are different from English layouts and so on.
| Trying to buy different key caps doesn't give the user a
| native layout because the shapes of the layouts are
| somewhat different.
| humanfromearth9 wrote:
| I assume not just replace, but upgrade, in some cases
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long
| they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I
| would imagine some of their frames are good for a long
| minute.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| The motherboards are often 80%+ the cost of an entire new
| machine though.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Probably because they include the CPU if I am not
| mistaken, but probably makes sense and is worth the
| hassle if your concern is your CPU / main hardware is
| falling behind.
| fullstop wrote:
| I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 --
| when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five
| years later I find myself needing a battery and they are
| unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere.
| My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used
| one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
|
| For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini
| pc with no battery.
| cogman10 wrote:
| FWIW, I have a 5 year old dell XPS whose battery I could both
| find an replace easily.
|
| That is one of the advantages of the bigger name brands,
| replacement parts are generally a lot easier to find.
| fullstop wrote:
| I was in it to support the company and their goals, but the
| experience was a little souring.
| Wingman4l7 wrote:
| Yeah, but is it OEM? Even big names like Dell don't support
| their parts for that long, and you have to resort to
| getting sketchy third-party parts from China, or rolling
| the dice on a used OEM part.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Yes. I bought it directly from dell.com
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-97-wh-6-cell-
| lithium-io...
| benoau wrote:
| That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of
| places are starting to require parts be made available for
| some years after the last sale of the device.
| fullstop wrote:
| I noticed that the battery properties (voltage, etc) were
| uncommon, as I considered other batteries that would
| physically fit within the available space.
|
| At the end of the day it's probably worth replacing it with
| something that probably won't burn my house down.
|
| I almost pulled the trigger on a mini PC over the summer,
| but said "the laptop still works, you don't really need
| this" and now it would be 30 or 40% more because of ddr5
| and NVMe cost spikes.
|
| It's not a money thing, it's the principal of it.
| 6510 wrote:
| Need a custom battery shop that can scan and build
| everything.
| f1shy wrote:
| I use laptops since the 90'. I only ever wanted to get a new
| battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or
| started to have problems when the machine was already
| obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I
| personally don't see lots of advantages in terms of
| reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what
| I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
| 6510 wrote:
| Right, next time ill buy 1-3 extra batteries when buying a
| laptop.
| xorcist wrote:
| How will you store them? In the freezer? It's not trivial
| to keep batteries in good condition.
| Zak wrote:
| If you keep them at about 50% and avoid temperature
| extremes, it doesn't take a PhD in electrochemistry. The
| thing is, fancy battery packs usually do contain active
| electronics that drain the cells slowly in storage, so
| it's necessary to charge them a little a couple times a
| year.
| 6510 wrote:
| Yes, good idea. I do have a large freezer. Vacuum seal
| it, charge to 60% one time per year. Adjust charge
| interval to whatever remains after 12 months. It has to
| stay above 30%.
| nilamo wrote:
| In 5-10 years, you can upgrade the motherboard+processor on
| a framework, which is much cheaper than a whole new laptop.
| Zak wrote:
| I've also had laptops since the 90s, but my experience is
| the opposite. I've upgraded _something_ in most of them.
| Almost all of them got RAM and storage upgrades. One got a
| mostly-compatible motherboard upgrade that required
| grinding down a couple bits on the frame to make it fit,
| and I got to have a 4:3 IPS display for a bit longer.
|
| I love the idea of the Framework. I don't love the lack of
| a trackpoint, or the pricing. I'm willing to forgive the
| latter since it's a small company with a mission I
| appreciate. There's likely a Framework 16 in my future
| eventually.
| VorpalWay wrote:
| Had to replace the NVME SSD in my Thinkpad a few years
| after it went out of warranty (that Thinkpad has a
| motherboard replacement on warranty as well). Needed to
| replace the fan in an older Thinkpad after 9 years.
|
| Unfortunately the quality of Thinkpads went downhill after
| Lenovo took over, they used to be really good. But there is
| nothing else with trackpoints these days, which I vastly
| prefer over touchpads. (And even on some old Dells that had
| trackpoints, they never felt as good as on Thinkpads.)
| Also, Linux support was always very good, though that is
| less of an issue these days.
|
| Never had to replace a battery though, but I always used
| that "don't charge more than 80%" mode. My old Thinkpad
| with a Core 2 Duo from 2009 still gets over a hour of
| battery (though the laptop is largely unusable for any
| practical use these days).
|
| I don't mind repairing electronics in general, even on a
| component level if need be (as long as the components are
| large enough that I can see them, which really isn't the
| case any longer with tiny SMD components). And I tend to
| use things for a very long time rather than replace them.
| I'm still rocking a Dell monitor from 2013 for example.
| vel0city wrote:
| A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions
| of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying
| to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and
| find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on
| finding System76 branded batteries.
|
| Hope you find your batteries.
| fullstop wrote:
| Yes, I went down the clevo path as well. No dice, it does
| not exist.
|
| I found a few which said "in stock" but was refunded each
| time as the part didn't actually exist.
| dexterdog wrote:
| I had no idea about this. I don't see how anybody who is
| buying one of these because of the repair-ability would
| complete the purchase if they knew this. I also don't see how
| they can make all of their user-friendly claims if this is
| the case.
| dinosaurdynasty wrote:
| https://system76.com/search.php?search_query=battery
|
| If I search for battery stuff shows up, but they only ship
| bare batteries to the 48 states and Canada.
|
| Contacting support should be able to help you too.
| fullstop wrote:
| Right, I went down that route as well:
|
| > The hardware supplier that we use no longer has the
| battery. Therefore, we cannot sell you the battery. What we
| can do is provide you with the part numbers so you can
| source it elsewhere. If you're considering sourcing the
| battery for the Darter Pro 5 from another supplier, please
| note that the model number for the battery is N150BAT-4,
| and the original part number is 6-87-N15ZS-51E01. Third-
| party battery sellers may display one or both of these
| numbers and might also list other compatible part numbers
| that are suitable for the same model.
|
| It's actually a Darter Pro 6, but the battery part number
| is correct in that text.
|
| You can not purchase this battery, it no longer exists.
| There are a few sketchy websites which say that they sell
| it, but they will cancel your order a few days after
| placing it and tell you that there is "lack of material".
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| I think it's too much to ask a small shop to do something
| if the original supplier stops shipping a part.
| Especially 5 years later.
| acomjean wrote:
| Depending on the model you might be able to find it online.
| My system 76 had a "Clevo" ID on the bottom sticker ( the
| company that manufactures the computers) I used to buy a
| replacement fan.
| fullstop wrote:
| I went that route. The OEM is no longer making the part,
| and it is not stocked anywhere.
| shriek wrote:
| Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one
| tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well
| that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do
| repair/replace parts. But of all things, replacing keyboard was
| the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
| dvorka wrote:
| It depends on vendor really - I have Lenovo T480 and I replaced
| keyboard earlier this year (there are various options like w/
| or w/o backlit + layout (I'm Czech), I have 2 batteries - one
| for "normal" use and extended one (in size and capacity) for
| traveling, changing multiple SSDs and RAM is possible (not
| soldered)... it's not framework, but easily fixable and Linux
| friendly HW.
| eduction wrote:
| T480 is indeed superb (except for being on the heavy side). I
| accidentally hurled my phone into the screen (both were on
| the bed and I shook the sheets trying to find the beeping
| phone). The replacement screen was like $75 and a 5 minute
| job. On MacBooks that's typically closer to $600.
|
| I'll probably replace it eventually with a t14 which is
| pretty light these days.
| smileson2 wrote:
| the T series thinkpads tend to have a high repairability
| rating (9/10 on ifixit ) and easy affordable access to
| parts, it's the X series that's a PITA imo
| adolph wrote:
| ++on older Lenovo. Something that Framework might have after
| many years is a viable secondary and third party market for
| repair components. Lenovo has also done a great job with
| keeping their detailed service manuals online and available.
| testing22321 wrote:
| I've always found this line of thinking to match up with
| drivers of old Land Rovers.
|
| The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy
| to repair and parts are easy to source globally.
|
| While that's true, I much prefer to drive vehicles that don't
| need repairs.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| The problem is of course that no vehicles/devices as of now
| exist that are indestructible
| tempsaasexample wrote:
| True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy
| working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And
| some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your
| hobby of working on cars.
|
| My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as
| a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never
| had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the
| spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done
| with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a
| head gasket job on other cars.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| It would also be apt if the handover cost $10,000 but the
| engine cost $9000.
|
| My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the
| economics just don't make sense with their pricing.
|
| The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is
| easily replaceable. That's cool and I love the idea, but any
| vendor could do that part.
| Ritewut wrote:
| I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace
| it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need
| to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you
| consider they don't get the priority for chips or the
| volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from
| AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they
| can to make it work.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Is that a viable business model though? That they'll
| always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems
| like a tough market.
|
| In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish
| Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was
| even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable
| screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple
| boards and selling some parts they dry up FW's moat with
| little effort.
| gessha wrote:
| The same companies that can't make a proper website to
| sell their products? Please. Framework's got it in the
| bag.
|
| I don't remember the number of times I typed dell.com or
| Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old
| XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the
| experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense
| from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings.
|
| Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and
| Linux support - that's all that I ask for. Outside of
| Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that
| offer that?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user
| easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily
| upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered
| some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered
| to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle -
| especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled
| Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard
| despite everything being still in warranty.
|
| Specific issues by laptop:
|
| 1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge
| after three years.
|
| 2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power
| supply socket after seven years.
|
| 3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans,
| overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and
| it took three hours) after five years.
|
| I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using
| at work.
|
| With the Framework I can address each and every one of the
| mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and
| spend half an hour or so per item.
| testing22321 wrote:
| Used mba bought in 2013, taken right around Africa in a 4x4
| through 35 countries, sold in 2019. Never an issue.
|
| Used mbp bought in 2019, taken through a dozen countries in
| a 4x4, sold in 2022. Never an issue.
|
| Used M1 mba bought in 2022, taken to twenty countries,
| never an issue.
|
| I do heavy photo and 4K video editing, light dev work,
| writing, web.
|
| I restart at most once a year.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your
| trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always
| commuting with the device and thus also
| plugging/unplugging things several times a day.
|
| Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand -
| you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that
| the hard way.
|
| Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware
| issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the
| battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it
| failed from age alone.
|
| Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an
| outlier.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6
| years of use they function like new and look almost new,
| and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling.
|
| I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great
| condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a
| couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved
| themselves.
| Ritewut wrote:
| There is no such thing as a vehicle that doesn't need
| repairs. Just ones you can't repair yourself.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| The idea is that repairability and reliability are
| sometimes at odds.
|
| I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to
| get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles
| sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that
| is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it
| well past the 100k mark while needing little to no
| maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people
| aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on
| those, though.
| Ritewut wrote:
| This sounds like correlation not causation.
| schmuckonwheels wrote:
| You're excited about the prospect of repairing a manufacturer's
| faulty engineering at your own cost?
|
| An analogy would be buying a new car then bragging to your
| friends that despite it being a lemon, you're thrilled because
| you can repair it yourself (at cost).
| uoaei wrote:
| Then you show them the long term amortized value of that car
| over its lifetime, not to mention waste reduction, and it
| starts to make more sense.
| davkan wrote:
| You're missing the common alternative in the modern age which
| is the manufacturer not selling the part at all and being
| left with a pile of unrepairable junk despite an otherwise
| functioning device.
|
| Laptop hinges were notorious for killing laptops for like a
| decade.
| function_seven wrote:
| "Lemon" was never mentioned. That's extreme. I don't care
| what make and model of car you choose, I'll show you a list
| of TSBs associated with that model. There's never been a car
| produced that was perfectly engineered and had no after-sale
| issues common to that model and year. There's always
| something.
|
| Yes, I would be thrilled to find a car that gave cheap and
| available replacement parts so I could remedy those issues
| later. That used to be the standard! The trend now is for
| automakers to keep juicing the proprietary software tools and
| one-off components, making repairability harder for the
| owner.
|
| So, to rephrase your analogy: "[That's like] buying a new car
| then bragging to your friends ... that you're thrilled
| because you can repair it yourself (at cost)."
| stavros wrote:
| Oh this is great, my keyboard is flaking and the hinge is as
| you say, I didn't realize they'd fixed it. I'll do some
| shopping now, thanks!
| nly wrote:
| I replaced the keyboard in my 5 year old Dell laptop without
| difficulty. The battery as well (at the same time). It was an
| instant way to make it run and feel like new
| kiddico wrote:
| I could have had my hinge replaced for free? Crap lol
| maelito wrote:
| Just broke my control key. They're sending me a new keyboard
| (well the whole cover as chznging the keyboard is hard) as part
| of the EU garantee.
|
| Awesome. My last laptop had the same problem but the repair
| employee broke the whole computer when he came to replace the
| keyboard. Dell then did not want to accept their fault.
|
| Vive le framework.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| I thought Framework was worth a gamble.
|
| I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery
| gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS
| upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of
| getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it
| going.
|
| (I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat
| (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack,
| USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C
| and USB-A.)
|
| But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's
| hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually
| written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your
| laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old
| hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your
| laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't
| incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big
| bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of
| its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
|
| With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware
| incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10
| years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll
| probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely
| match the industry improvements curve.
|
| Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all
| the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I
| have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was
| interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst
| case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to
| MacBooks...
| Etheryte wrote:
| I can't even recall when I last needed USB-A, literally
| everything I have uses USB-C (or bluetooth for mouse and
| keyboard). What do you use it for?
| nrp wrote:
| USB-A is our second most popular Expansion Card after USB-C
| (and before HDMI), so certainly people are using it for
| something!
| nehal3m wrote:
| I'm not trying to sit in my arm chair and act like I know
| better, but do you think it's possible people order those
| just in case?
| coldpie wrote:
| I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet,
| gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A
| because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I
| got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller
| is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and
| a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A
| keyboard. My uSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter
| (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came
| with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB
| sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard
| drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to
| micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a
| bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable
| everywhere after we had already standardized on micro
| (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now
| (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
|
| Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on
| demand. /edit.
|
| My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel
| jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power
| for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a
| lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away.
| My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply
| still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C
| variant when 700-1300EUR laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and
| always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at
| least, because I helped someone select a new laptop
| ereyesterday)
|
| I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but
| I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my
| laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI,
| ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already
| at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can
| physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like
| serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a
| double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux
| support and upgradeability (I really support their goal
| and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system)
| but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work
| for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses
| these connections and more
| Macha wrote:
| > My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel
| jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power
| for peak usage
|
| I've got a Dell 120W USB-C charger from a 2017 Dell
| laptop, and I think you can go up to 240W now.
|
| Now the highest power is a bit of a compatibility
| nightmare. I also have a 60W framework charger but it
| will only charge the Dell at 15W because that's the
| maximum mode that both the Dell and Framework charger
| support in common.
|
| But given the barrel connectors are usually only
| compatible with the exact laptop they're sold with,
| that's probably an improvement.
| summa_tech wrote:
| It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just
| don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal
| with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware
| engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the
| last week.
|
| I also own something like three different Framework
| products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and
| Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16
| spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really
| unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too
| small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
| oldandboring wrote:
| Software-y people also have a way of being deliberately
| and performatively obtuse about their technology choices.
| This person's proclamation about not using any USB-A
| peripherals hits the same as when they feign surprise
| that any non-luddite would still have a use for printers,
| scanners, and fax machines.
| zbrozek wrote:
| I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and
| generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to
| random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all
| sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I
| get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in
| the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C
| ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly
| into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than
| carry an extra type-C with me.
|
| That said, there have been a few things that have been a
| bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
|
| - The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It
| is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I
| find holding it down and dragging to be excessively
| difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
|
| - The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard
| mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky
| or dirty.
|
| - The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting
| blocked, mostly by my legs.
|
| - There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or
| disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find
| that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate
| room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped
| over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is
| still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The
| translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a
| lightbulb.
|
| - The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very
| quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little
| bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the
| OCP on some of my bricks.
|
| - There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging
| power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my
| battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't
| want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on
| planes.
|
| - The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are
| mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that
| much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity
| machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
|
| - The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-
| frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest
| and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more
| control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like
| it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
|
| - The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very
| rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have
| sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above
| about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other
| stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so
| this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
|
| All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look
| forward to continued improvements from the company over the
| years.
| nrp wrote:
| Could you reach out to support about the delete key?
| There was a small window of time where a burr on a batch
| of Input Cover lattices resulted in wearing down the
| keyboard membrane in that spot:
| https://support.frame.work
|
| Thanks for the feedback on LED brightness and airplane
| OCP. That should be something we can improve in firmware.
| bluescrn wrote:
| Seriously, why are touchpads not a solved problem yet?
|
| Why are so many machines (including some fairly high-end
| models) shipping with worse touchpads than Apple were
| shipping over a decade ago?
| zbrozek wrote:
| The actual touch part of the FW touchpad, including tap
| to click, works just fine. I might be a weirdo for liking
| mechanical click for dragging (and I dislike the Macbook
| tactile fakery; it does not fool my finger).
| systemtest wrote:
| Perhaps because Framework users are a bit more geeky and
| are more likely to use older hardware that still has USB-A?
|
| USB-A is like what DB9 was. Easy to use, easy to plug-in,
| used on most devices. But there comes a point in time where
| we move on to the next connector, which is USB-C.
|
| Most of my hardware is younger than ten years and
| everything has USB-C. I had a night light with micro-USB
| still but that was one of the last devices with a legacy
| port.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver,
| Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for
| backups...
|
| I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those
| to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles
| everywhere.
|
| I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could
| actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and
| still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any
| point in the laptop's life.
| ajross wrote:
| Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and
| keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the
| scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game
| controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in
| a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except
| in a handful of weird devices.
|
| And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just
| swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's
| being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the
| KVM switch is A-only.
|
| Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux
| images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG
| adapter, UART adapters, etc...
|
| USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works
| better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
| distances wrote:
| I use USB-A for mouse and keyboard, so I need at least two
| ports. Both are much better with a cord.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Something about bluetooth keyboards... they're just awful.
| Laggy and glitchy things.
| safety1st wrote:
| What I have plugged in via USB-A right now: Ethernet adapter;
| Generic gamepad; Logitech wireless keyboard receiver; Sony
| waterproof Walkman cradle.
| neogodless wrote:
| Current items in my possession that are still in use and use
| USB-A
|
| * keyboard
|
| * mouse dongle
|
| * webcam
|
| * microphone
|
| * mouse charging cable
|
| * smart watch charging cable
|
| * SATA hard drive dock
|
| * 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
|
| Things that use USB-C
|
| * new SD card reader
|
| * new headphones dongle
|
| * smart phone charging cable
|
| Some of the above could _maybe_ be replaced with a USB-C
| equivalent, but they are still working and I 'm still using
| them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
| kstrauser wrote:
| I bought a USB-C hub so I can slowly migrate to the current
| format as I replace the old devices.
| neogodless wrote:
| I mean I have a perfectly good USB-A hub that is still
| working and doesn't need replaced either ;)
|
| 4-ports -- supports webcam, microphone, keyboard with no
| issues.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Bluetooth is too flaky for such critical inputs. Dongles will
| usually bring higer polling, less interference/2.4Ghz
| connectivity and lower load on the host system. Sadly most
| are USB-A plugs.
|
| Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other
| things as well might also be at play ?
| systemtest wrote:
| Isn't that more due to the Bluetooth hardware used and
| implementation on the OS side? On macOS I never had
| flakyness with Bluetooth keyboards but on Windows my
| experience was significantly worse.
| bluescrn wrote:
| Most flash drives and wired mice/keyboards are still USB-A.
|
| And people have huge piles of charging cables that are USB-A
| to micro/mini USB or USB-C.
| systemtest wrote:
| I assume you are talking about legacy devices? I haven't
| purchased a keyboard in the past ten years with USB-A.
| Everything is USB-C for charging/data and Bluetooth.
| distances wrote:
| I think new devices are primarily USB-A too? All my
| keyboards and mice are A, also the one I bought this
| year: https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535
| systemtest wrote:
| Wow. A device in 2025 with a non-detachable USB-A cable?
| That sounds like a horrible design decision from both a
| repairability and future-proofing standpoint. My keyboard
| has a USB-C port on the side so you can plug in whatever
| cable you want, A or C, long, short, curled, braided. It
| even connects to my phone without dongles.
| Xerox9213 wrote:
| Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly
| true for desktops too. And by the time you're ready for a new
| CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Understood - a new mainboard on the Framework website is
| around $700, which I still prefer to a new laptop.
|
| I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware
| over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10
| years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade
| vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same
| time period.
| neogodless wrote:
| At least with desktop you _sometimes_ get a CPU upgrade path.
|
| For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64
| 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
|
| With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen
| 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen
| 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in
| performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that
| you aren't saving money on perf upgrades.
|
| You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the
| reality.
| qchris wrote:
| I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux,
| not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply
| isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
|
| As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or
| Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in
| the 13" form factor.
| ashirviskas wrote:
| Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily
| driving it for 2 years by this point.
|
| While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in
| the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random
| issues), it did get better month by month and problems got
| resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| > Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
|
| Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark
| are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or
| your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
|
| Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have
| some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both
| equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am
| starting to question the need for me to update to a new
| MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
| simjnd wrote:
| It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's
| mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or
| its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and
| just notice your battery life be cut in half).
|
| I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same
| efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
|
| My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with
| a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a
| good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do
| software updates without fearing that it fucked everything
| up like every major macOS release does.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| > I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the
| same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
|
| No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad
| experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20
| hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not
| necessary for me.
|
| With that being said, I personally am going to start
| abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that
| NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced
| into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my
| devices.
|
| I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480
| alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
| whompyjaw wrote:
| I have been thinking this same thing... Goodluck! I would
| like my own onprem AI tho. And home assistant devices
| user_7832 wrote:
| That's a bit interesting, because IME linux on my
| framework 13 (7840u, 61wh battery) is surprisingly very
| solid. Fans almost never spin up (even with a windows KVM
| plus lot of firefox tabs), and I can get 6-8 hours easy,
| and 10+ hours of battery life if I push it (without even
| using power saving mode), on native linux (Fedora 40).
|
| Windows 10 in comparison gives maybe 4-5 hours of battery
| plus lots of fan usage (but lesser ram usage often).
| dangus wrote:
| Find me a new MacBook Air that's $1000 for 2TB of storage +
| 32GB of RAM, because that's what I paid for my Framework 13
| brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only
| cost about $1200 today).
|
| A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
|
| So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs
| the same as a MB Pro 14") I get a lot more actual capability
| in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
|
| I've got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on
| both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any
| I/O I want.
|
| And I'm not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for
| my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
|
| (I also couldn't really find a similar Lenovo at anything
| close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have
| - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2
| aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with
| good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura
| Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even
| value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see
| myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it
| costs more).
| twobitshifter wrote:
| That's all well and good, but you didn't consider the
| processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls
| behind.
|
| fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121
|
| MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-
| air-15-inch-2025
|
| There is a gulf between the two and that's what is
| sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can't decide
| to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over
| performance, but there is a 'price' to making that choice.
| coldpie wrote:
| I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to
| tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported
| hardware.)
| dangus wrote:
| A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it
| doesn't make it a better car to live with.
|
| This is Apple's price anchor in action. The base price is
| essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the
| capability of their chips to their fullest will need more
| RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight
| sometimes. Goodbye, "Optimize storage."
|
| In practical use, there really isn't anything my system
| can't do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina.
| Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier
| (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is
| way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it.
|
| I acknowledge Apple's lead in their chips but that's only
| one component of the experience, and it's not so far
| ahead that it's a major detriment to choose something
| else.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| This is a more comparable benchmark (it's the current
| FW13): https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561
|
| The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread
| perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ?
|
| Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time
| thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging
| along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly
| higher price range.
|
| Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also
| help in many cases.
| dangus wrote:
| Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench.
|
| For example, in the real world, you've gotta run most PC
| games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance
| implications or have them not work at all, where modern
| Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD
| integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than
| Apple's.
|
| The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in
| your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of
| RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you
| don't want all the other features and expense of the Pro
| model.
|
| Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD
| card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14" MacBook
| Pro.
| impure-aqua wrote:
| There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a
| spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
|
| It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse
| speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to
| MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost
| as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan
| curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't
| even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of
| all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
|
| As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's
| undeniable that other vendors are generally selling
| significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price
| point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness
| on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty
| CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it
| up off the desk.
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| > You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the
| reality.
|
| There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple
| Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades
| before Apple's ARM silicon.
|
| That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing
| a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than
| anything Apple has _ever_ done for re-use.
| cromka wrote:
| They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are
| not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
|
| I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a
| MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can
| actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as
| another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
| rwbt wrote:
| I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned.
| The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never
| keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the
| last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every
| time I turn it on.
|
| Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them
| a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or
| have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it
| fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on
| when enough people complained - they started a battery program
| where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also
| eventually stop working.
|
| I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would
| fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
| nrp wrote:
| We have the full detail and a permanent fix for this issue
| here:
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
|
| We still provide the RTC substitute module free to any 11th Gen
| owner who requests it.
| rwbt wrote:
| The permanent fix involves soldering stuff on the mainboard,
| which I don't have any prior experience. The RTC substitute
| module you mention is just the ML220 coin battery that will
| also eventually stop working.
| nrp wrote:
| The RTC substitute module is the permanent fix, which does
| require soldering one wire to a point on the Mainboard.
| rwbt wrote:
| I appreciate the response, but my suggestion would be to
| offer a mail-in service program so that users don't have
| to fiddle with potentially dangerous soldering (ideally
| Framework bearing the shipping costs or atleast
| subsidizing it).
| simpaticoder wrote:
| I did this repair and it was not nearly as easy as you
| imply. The wire is extremely thin, and the pad on the
| motherboard is extremely small. I had to purchase special
| eye-wear in order to see what I was doing, in addition to
| a soldering iron.
|
| It was and is totally wrong that Framework requires users
| to repair a component that was faulty from the factory.
| You should ship the laptops back to your facility and
| repair them, at your expense. At worst, offer a
| substantial discount on a motherboard replacement.
|
| This experience is a big reason why I went from a strong
| Framework proponent to a strong detractor. You do not
| support your products, and users cannot trust you to do
| the right thing. You now bask in the idealistic haze of
| nerddom but your actions show that you're just a business
| for whom repairability is a sales strategy to justify
| premium prices.
| sowbug wrote:
| The warranty suggests that Framework would "ship the
| laptops back to [their] facility and repair them, at
| [their] expense," as you said they should. Did that not
| happen while your warranty period was in effect?
|
| https://frame.work/warranty
| simpaticoder wrote:
| No, it did not. And you had one of their representatives
| in this thread verify that fact. They expected you to do
| the repair with a soldering iron.
| sowbug wrote:
| My question was about what happened during your warranty
| period. nrp's response was independent of warranty
| obligations.
| rwbt wrote:
| They just offered free batteries.
| rwbt wrote:
| Nope. I don't think they even recognized the defect till
| many years later (probably for legal reasons?).
|
| For users, that were still under warranty - they offered
| free RTC batteries (which also stopped working later).
|
| Either way, I won't buy anything from them going forward.
| mmcnl wrote:
| I don't get Framework. The business offerings of HP, Dell and
| Lenovo have a lot of replacable parts, and you can easily upgrade
| the RAM and SSD on many. These laptops already exist for decades.
| Framework hardly brings anything new into the mix.
| jutter wrote:
| I don't care about the upgradeability or repairability. I think
| that people espousing these points need a reality check - other
| laptops aren't _that_ bad for repairability (I have always had
| Alienwares, and have had no trouble sourcing and installing parts
| in laptops even 10+ years old), and piecemeal upgrades really don
| 't make sense in the long term. Framework also seems to have
| attracted a certain type of activist that I won't get into here
| (they're very opinionated about the company's donations).
|
| I've ordered a Framework 16, though. Not for any of that crap,
| but just to be able to customise it. That's what I love. They
| should really lean in to this.
|
| Once the eco and repairability nonsense has faded - and it will,
| because it's marketing fluff - you still have a laptop that is
| extremely versatile from a company that doesn't hate you. It's
| not bloated with spyware by default, the checkout process isn't
| full of dark patterns, they support and encourage you to use it
| how you want to use it.
|
| Lean in. Make more modules. Make better modules. Assist the
| community more with new and varied modules. It's crazy that eGPU
| and dual USB modules are primarily driven by amateur forum
| volunteers rather than being major priorities for Framework's
| engineers. Design a low-profile mechanical keyboard, I don't care
| for your excuses. Give us proper touchpad options with buttons.
| Keyboard modules with scroll wheels and panning for CAD.
|
| _These_ are what makes Framework special. In 3 or 4 years it 's
| going to be thrown on the same pile as all of my other old
| laptops, never to be upgraded or repaired again. I don't care for
| that. I just want a laptop customised for my needs over that
| time, rather than fighting against the antagonistic whims of Dell
| et al.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| On repairability, other laptops are mostly fine if you don't
| need any guarantee or official parts. That's a big ask IMHO.
|
| Especially for the keyboard: 2~3 years of heavy use will have a
| clear impact, and I'd hate to get a replacement second hand (so
| already with a limited life span) or from a random vendor I
| have no idea if it will fry the motherboard.
|
| Otherwise I was surprised by Framework's keyboard supporting
| QMK. That's the kind of nice things that make them standout
| IMHO.
| BoingBoomTschak wrote:
| This, please help me ditch my old Haswell Latitude, touchpads
| without buttons (or even better, 3 buttons) are horrid things!
| StayTrue wrote:
| I bought the first AMD Framework 13 at launch. It just works and
| I'd buy it again.
|
| To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of
| the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a
| laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either
| of their supported distros but their support forums had the
| necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running
| (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
|
| I like that they've given some support to the FreeBSD community
| and I'd like to run that on a future Framework.
| guerby wrote:
| I bought a Gen11 framework 13 then later when available I
| replaced its motherboard by a Gen12.
|
| The old motherboard with the coolermaster case is tucked
| between two books in my library and is now running my home
| proxmox.
|
| 64GB RAM 4TB NVME 4C/8T 2.5G ethernet and ... 2 Watt idle.
|
| I did run "proxmox in proxmox" with ceph and cloudinit/live
| migration for a conference I gave on this old motherboard:
|
| video
| https://jres.ubicast.tv/permalink/v1268c650f5d41v26pt0/ifram...
|
| PDF https://conf-
| ng.jres.org/2024/document_revision_2424.html?do...
|
| scripts https://framagit.org/guerby/proxmox-in-proxmox
| adolph wrote:
| I've been eyeing the coolermaster kit. It seems like an
| interesting way to do a 1l pc.
|
| Can you just plug usbc directly into them without using the
| expansion things?
|
| The cooling seems to travel 90deg corresponding to in the
| bottom and out the back of a laptop. How do you have it
| between two books?
| gary_0 wrote:
| The explicit support for Linux is the main reason I bought a
| Framework (which looked slightly more attractive to me than
| System76).
| gclawes wrote:
| I very much want a Framework 13 with a decent AI chip, but the
| abysmal battery life is a hard stop for me, sadly. I know this
| isn't entirely on Framework (get your shit together AMD).
| Gooblebrai wrote:
| The only thing stopping me from buying one is that I heard the
| fan is quite loud. Is that still true?
| ruiseal wrote:
| I have the Intel Core Ultra and on the first mainboard I had
| (which Framework replaced because there were other issues) the
| fan ran quite a lot and was annoying. On the second board the
| fan never runs unless I'm compiling something.
| cyberrock wrote:
| Unfortunately the FW13 is how I realized I don't like 13(.5)" and
| 3:2, because I'm just too used to 14-16" and 16:10/16:9. I wish
| they had more variety in chassis, not just in size and aspect
| ratio, but also touchscreen and 2-in-1 conversion. You'd think
| that that might be easier to support than designing and
| supporting more mainboards. But when I saw that FW12 is a 2-in-1
| I knew they were never going to add touch to 13/16, so I just
| gave up and got a different (larger) 2-in-1.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| 16:9 sucks unless you watch movies all day. A taller screen
| allows less scrolling. The 16 is larger and is 16:10.
| Insanity wrote:
| I really like the idea of Framework. But the use-case for their
| laptop just doesn't typically exist for me.
|
| I have a custom built PC (been building my own since 2008). In
| that span, I had many minor upgrades and 3 entirely new from-
| scratch builds. I could not imagine it any other way.
|
| For my laptops though, I never bothered. I want something that
| "just works" when I'm on-the-go, it's fine if it's not new
| hardware as I won't game on them, and my primary concern is how
| light they are.
|
| And then a few years ago I got the iPad Pro which became my only
| device I'd take while traveling.
| sixothree wrote:
| I just wish they would introduce a TKL layout. I don't use laptop
| keyboard because during development I rely on the navigation key
| combos. Think control-shift-home or shift-arrow, or control-
| pagedown.
|
| And it's disappointing because Framework is the _perfect_ company
| to offer such an option.
| konaraddi wrote:
| I think the author is the target customer for Framework. A
| customer looking for a ship of Theseus laptop that the seller
| stands by.
|
| I've looked at framework as a potential next laptop but it's
| expensive, some of parts are expensive, and the other parts I'm
| not sure I've ever had issues with in past laptops. I think I'm
| better off buying multiple used thinkpads over the course of my
| life, or even a used MBP (refurbished m4 MBP goes for ~$1.3K from
| Apple, base configuration w/ 16GB ram for framework 13 is ~1.2K),
| than a Framework; the thinkpads would be cheaper and more eco
| friendly with good build quality. I'm not looking for a ship of
| Theseus laptop, I'm just looking for something that works a long
| time, is good enough, and I want to keep my lifetime expenditure
| on hardware on the lower side. I look at my laptop cost as
| upfront cost divided by number of years I expect to use it for
| and I have a spreadsheet with past laptops (and phones) tracking
| historical usage and costs to better inform my next purchase.
| Framework looks attractive but the costs don't seem to align with
| my goal.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I'm own a FW13 and I have bought ~4 for employees.
|
| I doubt I will order more. We've had small and large issues.
|
| My Linux machine will drain the battery completely if you don't
| perform a full shutdown, and even then the quiescent drain is
| too high and I can expect it to be dead in a week.
|
| The dream of repairability is great, but the reality just isn't
| there.
|
| That said, I was able to replace a damaged screen with no
| effort at all. A far cry from the MS Surface I had previously,
| but any vendor could sell a screen or keyboard without the
| "full modularity" that FW pushes.
| yaro330 wrote:
| Apparently Surface laptops come with stellar repair guides
| now, and they improved repairability greatly. MS doing
| something nice for once?
| kombine wrote:
| Almost two years ago I bought an opened but never used ThinkPad
| T14s from eBay very cheaply. It's not too specced but it does
| the job and it will easily last me 2-3 more years at which
| point I just buy another one. I see what Framework is doing,
| and they probably need the support of customers to get the
| scale of Lenovo/Dell to lower the cost of production.
| EbNar wrote:
| > You can't change the RAM on laptops now.
|
| > You can't change the SSD on laptops now.
|
| > You can't easily repair the screen on laptops now.
|
| I can do all of that on my Thinkpad E14.
| nona wrote:
| I want to like framework, but whenever I've seen one of them in
| person I was pretty disappointed about the case/chassis. And the
| touchpad.
|
| For me personally, weight doesn't matter that much, and neither
| does configurability (I guess by now they have data on the most
| popular port choices for example).
|
| But size (as small/minimal as possible for a given screen and
| keyboard size - minimal bezels for both) and strength (no flex,
| solid hinge) do matter to me.
|
| I understand these two things conflict with themselves, and with
| the framework's repairability and configurability.
|
| Still, I'd like to see some true innovation there. I'm just
| afraid they painted themselves into a corner with their current
| mainboard design, and won't be able to diverge from that to bring
| us something truly solid yet compact and repairable.
| phlipski wrote:
| I've had a Framework 13 for 20 months now. AMD Ryzen(tm) 5 7640U
| w/ 32GB DDR4. Running Ubuntu. I love it. My only
| complaint/request: USB-C for power should be build into the
| chassis and not require a modular port. You get 4 ports to mix
| things like usb/hdmi/sd-card, etc... 1 of the 4 is always using
| the usb-c for power.
| outlore wrote:
| I've been wistfully watching people enjoy Framework Laptop from
| the sidelines for years now. One doubt that has always plagued
| me: realistically how long can the backwards compatibility for
| new improvements last? Surely there must be some point where a
| new processor, or chassis, or airflow improvement must
| necessitate the complete reconfiguration of the laptop internals
| or would be just plain unsupported? I don't have background in
| industrial design or electrical engineering so I've never been
| able to lay these doubts to rest.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| We know how to make laptops now, and the framework is fine. A
| major development, like Apple-level power efficiency would
| require less airflow than x64. Don't think there's anything
| major to worry about. May need the 16 for pro-level local LLMs
| for a while.
| dang wrote:
| Recent and probably related:
|
| _I 'm returning my Framework 16_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174 - Dec 2025 (576
| comments)
| yaro330 wrote:
| As someone not swimming in piles of cash, I can't bring myself to
| get a framework laptop. Ironically enough, new ThinkPads, which
| are on sale pretty regularly, end up being much nicer, solidly
| built, more performant, and with an awesome warranty, even in my
| shithole region.
| binarycrusader wrote:
| Yes, eccentric, but this thread linked from the post is the real
| winner:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/the-snack-drawer-store-now-ma...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-12-26 23:01 UTC)