[HN Gopher] I'm returning my Framework 16
___________________________________________________________________
I'm returning my Framework 16
Author : YorickPeterse
Score : 301 points
Date : 2025-12-24 12:55 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (yorickpeterse.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (yorickpeterse.com)
| rookderby wrote:
| I'm still schlepping around with various used thinkpads. Maybe we
| get another HP Dev One that sells well this time.
| ndiddy wrote:
| I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had
| any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack
| of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with
| the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with
| x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop).
|
| It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build
| quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many
| options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework,
| it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the
| configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less
| configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a
| Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell
| still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS
| keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less
| functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I
| guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon
| and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being
| 1200p.
| brokencode wrote:
| Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in
| laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn't
| want OLED, but I've never noticed such a problem on OLED
| phones.
| ndiddy wrote:
| A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low
| brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who
| would be sensitive to that sort of thing.
| jeffbee wrote:
| PWM is the only useful way to drive an LED and the people
| who deny this are, to me, hilarious. In fact for the
| author's stated use case of low light conditions PWM really
| is the _only_ way to do it without wrecking accuracy (and
| efficiency).
| winrid wrote:
| My no PWM laptops look fine to me for watching movies.
| Sure, less efficient. But if I can't look at it for more
| than 30 seconds without my eyes burning then what's the
| point?
| piskov wrote:
| OLED phones are bad because of flicker
| antonkochubey wrote:
| On iPhones at least you can disable PWM dimming at lower
| brightness level at the expense of color accuracy. It's in
| Accessibility/Display settings.
| piskov wrote:
| Now tell me a model which has this given that OLEDs are
| here since iPhone X
|
| Hint: the only one was released in a year that ends with
| 25
| brokencode wrote:
| Only if you're sensitive to that flicker, which most
| aren't. Otherwise they're pretty great.
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| I'm using an OLED X1 Carbon right now in the UK. I use it all
| the time in low light.
|
| I just turned all the lights off (even the Christmas tree)
| and ran through a handful of usage situations and couldn't
| see any issues. I turned some lights on and did the same, I
| couldn't see any issues. I asked Claude, and got told to do
| the finger test, and that is barely perceptible. I then used
| my phone to record the screen and yes - I can confirm that
| there is an effect that my pixel 9a's camera picks up, barely
| noticeable at 240Hz, and definitely noticeable at 480Hz.
|
| Maybe the guy is particularly sensitive, but from the framing
| of the rest of the article I think he's blowing a few things
| out of proportion.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I probably should've done a better job at clarifying this,
| but my issue with OLEDs isn't just that (at least
| historically) they tend to be too bright even at lower
| brightness, but also the other issues they come with such
| as burn-in and text potentially looking less pleasant
| compared to IPSs displays. Burn-in is probably my biggest
| concern here, especially since it really seems to be a case
| of winning the lottery or not (i.e. for some it's fine for
| years, others get burn-in after just a few months).
|
| Basically I just trust IPS more than any other technology
| :)
| Frotag wrote:
| I've only recently bought OLED laptops so I can't speak
| to burn-in but out of the three I've tested, they have a
| lower minimum brightness than my other IPS laptops.
|
| In terms of text clarity, "2k" OLEDs (1920x1200) are a
| bit blurry. IPSs and 3k OLEDs are noticeably sharper,
| with not much difference between each other.
| sillystuff wrote:
| For the brightness issue, if you are running X:
|
| allow dimming display beyond normal max dimming:
| xrandr --output eDP --brightness 0.5
|
| restore to normal brightness range:
| xrandr --output eDP --brightness 1
|
| (substitute the actual output name for your display
| instead of eDP; run xrandr without args to list)
| inatreecrown2 wrote:
| nice! didn't know about that. Thanks!
| sillystuff wrote:
| Someone was upset about it. The comment was down voted?
|
| Try to be helpful.
| nkydr0i0 wrote:
| Maybe they're upset you're not using Wayland?
|
| Then again, every Wayland compositor family has their own
| tools...
| fwipsy wrote:
| Burn-out probably depends on the model, not a lottery,
| but shouldn't be a major concern for typical usage
| patterns in recent models. The text issue is caused by a
| pentile subpixel layout which are no longer common. I
| love OLED for low-light evening usage because IPS
| displays always have some backlight bleed, whereas OLEDs
| can display true blacks/pure warm tones which I find much
| more pleasant in the evenings. IMO power consumption is
| the only major downside of OLED displays for general-
| purpose laptops and phones.
| easygenes wrote:
| I'd say the inverse is true: OLEDs are the _best_ in low
| light, as they generally dim well and black means zero
| illumination of the pixel. Author is ill-informed. Also, OLED
| burn-in is a non-issue with current displays in any normal
| situation (e.g. not a kiosk or arcade or other sort of
| always-on static dashboard).
| cromka wrote:
| > having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop)
|
| How so? Is this because some proprietary software that isn't
| available on ARM on Linux?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Most server and embedded oriented software has been compiled
| for ARM 7 & 8 for a while now, but in my experience, software
| you'd use on a desktop might not have ARM builds unless it's
| popular with RPi or handheld gaming enthusiasts.
| operator-name wrote:
| > a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and
| there definitely aren't many options
|
| There's been a bunch of Windows ARM laptops that aim to
| directly compete with the M series Macs. Linux compatibility
| will depend on make on model.
| ndiddy wrote:
| As far as I'm aware, all of the Snapdragon ARM laptops are
| existing chassis designs with different motherboards. I'm not
| sure how ARM affects build quality. Moreover, Snapdragon X
| support on Linux is still heavily a work in progress with
| issues with sound, power management, webcam support, and
| video acceleration. I don't know why anyone would go with a
| Snapdragon laptop today when Intel Lunar Lake excels at the
| exact same workloads Snapdragon X does, has similar battery
| life, and Intel actually works on getting device support
| upstreamed in a timely manner.
| wpm wrote:
| It makes me wonder, does Apple have some insane patent on
| unibody construction? The pre-Retina unibody MacBook Pros were
| easily upgradable and very solid. They had a ton of room in the
| chassis, and hell, the first year of them the battery was
| toollessly removable. Aside from the keyboard and the screen,
| it was all latches and a few common Phillips #00's.
|
| Why have no manufacturers copied this obviously great
| construction technique? It's not like a Framework is wildly
| cheaper than a MacBook, we're already paying a premium, so the
| costs of subtractive CNC can't be it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that
| precisely and in those quantities can be "it".
|
| https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I
|
| I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering
| achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling
| methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its
| volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend
| more on the chassis than other laptop designers.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have
| at least as much volume. Apple also has higher margins than
| those companies, implying that any cost savings they make
| on other components aren't making it into the price anyway.
|
| It's probably just that it costs a little more to do it and
| most customers wouldn't pay a premium to have it.
| OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
| TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to
| apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses
| everywhere.
|
| I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years;
| until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and
| soaked them.
|
| When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each
| piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This
| morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except
| the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot.
|
| While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the
| keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it
| was more premium, it ultimately failed first.
| 65 wrote:
| To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard.
| It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and
| then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was
| magically able to boot.
| foldr wrote:
| As the sibling says, it's definitely worth waiting at least a
| week or two to see if the M1 recovers. I've had the same
| experience.
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next
| to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is
| famously OK for this - no need to put it _in_ the desiccant. A
| little bit of airflow is also good.
|
| You may also find that rotating it into different positions
| accelerates it.
| nottorp wrote:
| Any repair shops specialized in saving devices from water in
| your area?
|
| Haven't had a laptop rescued yet, but there was a phone simply
| dropped in water in my family. I put it in a 1 kg rice bag,
| drove to the repair shop. I don't know what magic they did but
| it worked for 2 more years until we upgraded it.
| lurking_swe wrote:
| 1 day is way too little time. make sure the room's humidity is
| low, and consider unscrewing the back part of the body to let
| it dry more quickly.
|
| I'd try again in 2-3 days. Water doesn't leave any (or much)
| residue after it dries. Unlike other drinks.
| TOGoS wrote:
| I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First
| they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with
| Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird
| power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise
| a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth
| with support about that for two years before they finally told me
| it was out of warranty so I was SoL.
|
| Then there's the screen that falls backwards.
|
| Should've bought an old Thinkpad, instead.
| The_President wrote:
| They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I
| finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed
| them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are
| tuned as expected.
| comte7092 wrote:
| I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can't help
| but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the
| core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many
| comments here on hn.
|
| Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect
| a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the
| value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine,
| and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
|
| People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators
| that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will
| lament how manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then
| turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable
| laptop, or the price.
|
| I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don't
| consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a
| "premium" experience, but that's is just something I have to
| accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture
| places so little value on it though.
|
| Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of
| scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we'd have
| to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn't
| above criticism, but if you don't care about these things then
| why look at this machine? A large established brand is always
| going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.
| api wrote:
| I feel like Framework wasn't for this customer. They would have
| been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.
| mPogrzeb wrote:
| I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.
| Numerlor wrote:
| Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on
| framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even
| if I completely made use of the hardware after a future
| upgrade.
|
| Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability
| idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop
| that's not compelling against its competitors
| casenmgreen wrote:
| I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.
|
| Get away from Intel and management engine.
| kec wrote:
| Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one
| of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about
| avoiding Intel I'm assuming you want Linux and doubt the
| support is as good as asahi on Macs)
| E39M5S62 wrote:
| Snapdragon support is decent to great these days, and
| importantly it's all in the mainline kernel tree.
|
| Edit: though it should be said that what I think is good
| might be a far cry from you think is good. I did use a
| Thinkpad X13s as my primary work machine for 6 months,
| though.
| chocochunks wrote:
| Unfortunately it's pretty device dependent. My SP11 seems
| pretty tough to get working :(
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| I mean, this could literally be the last laptop shell,
| screen, keyboard and power adapter you ever buy. That's a
| fantastic sustainability story. Not to mention that if it
| dies you are never at risk of having to replace the whole
| thing unless it melts in a fire.
| kec wrote:
| It could be... but it won't be. Internals will be
| outmoded quickly, and I would be shocked if logic boards
| from ~5 years from now will still be compatible just as
| needs evolve (especially around cooling and power
| delivery)... and this is all before physical wear and
| tear on screen/keyboard/ports.
|
| I would be very surprised if many frameworks are upgraded
| ship of Theseus style for decades, or if the total cost
| of ownership (and even ecological impact, most of the
| nastiness is going to be the electronic internals, not
| the metal casing) is lower than for someone buying a more
| integrated laptop ever 5-6 years.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >It could be... but it won't be.
|
| Hard to say. If people boast about a ThinkPad lasting a
| decade, I see no reason (post Moores law) that this can't
| last that long. The only think not obvious on how to
| replace is the screen and speakers.
| ericd wrote:
| In the context of the massive amount of throwaway
| packaging involved in the food supply chain, or every
| other part of the supply chain for every consumable we
| use, how big a deal is that? Are electronics uniquely
| impactful in terms of sustainability versus eg plastic
| clamshells to transport apples?
| contingencies wrote:
| Macbook air = small keyboard, small screen, limited
| battery, all parts expensive to service, etc. Try hacking
| a Mac Mini instead:
| https://github.com/vk2diy/hackbook-m4-mini
| rogerrogerr wrote:
| A MacBook Air is just a Mac mini with a keyboard, screen,
| and battery. You can choose to attach the same
| peripherals to your MacBook, and have the flexibility of
| a laptop when you need it. Paying a couple hundred dollar
| premium for this is a good deal.
| giantrobot wrote:
| The MacBook Air has a standard size keyboard.
| Moldoteck wrote:
| battery is good even on m1 air and better on 15' airs
| which have bigger keyboard/battery
| tstrimple wrote:
| Literally just picked up a 13" M4 Air for $750 from Best
| Buy for my wife. It was spend $500 to replace her older
| MBA screen or a bit extra for a whole new device.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I guess that's the issue? I spent nearly $2800 on my
| current laptop, top of the line specs at the time. I'm
| just not the kind of person trying to compare down to A
| $1000 mid-level Mac. I need to use this thing
| professionally.
|
| In that lens, the config I played with (before ram prices
| surged) ended up around $2200 and it felt nice knowing I
| could upgrade the GPU down the line for $400 instead of
| pondering if I can last another year or 2 before things
| fall behind. As long as the chassis and screen is solid I
| can deal with some compromise for that value.
| kec wrote:
| Sub a $2500 MacBook Pro in for air then for your needs.
| In several years if that new GPU is actually worth an
| upgrade it will almost certainly need more cooling or
| have higher power demands than current framework logic
| boards/chassis can handle.
|
| Even on desktops where constraints are easier, piecemeal
| hardware upgrades of anything but storage and ram has
| never been worth it or done much to extend system
| lifespan.
| adolph wrote:
| > I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.
|
| You can't do that with the 16, only the 13 [0] and you
| can't upgrade ram on it. Which is kind of the problem in a
| nutshell. Over time fewer user modifications make sense due
| to the context of the whole computer as an integrated
| system.
|
| 0. https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-
| mainboard
| _zoltan_ wrote:
| nobody ever does. maybe 2 people on the planet...
|
| for everybody else, a Mac is perfect ;-)
| arghwhat wrote:
| The pricing when I looked was similar. I went with a Lenovo
| last time because the Framework 16 hadn't quite matured, but
| premium anything is never going to make financial sense.
|
| Buying and repairing a framework is never going to be cheaper
| than going through consumable trash laptops, and buying top
| of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never
| going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade
| laptops and upgrading more often.
|
| What you're paying for right now is the customization
| capabilities and the ideology. Upgrading and customizing a
| single platform with a community, vs. a fixed one-off design
| that'll be lost next time you upgrade.
|
| If Framework isn't already compelling to you at this time,
| then you're not the target audience. They might drop in
| price, but they'll never win a race to the bottom.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > buying top of the line laptops and trying to use them
| longer is never going to be cheaper or better than buying
| medium grade laptops and upgrading more often.
|
| I think this is much less general than you make it out to
| be and has an _extremely_ strong dependency on how you use
| the thing and of your preference. It makes me think of the
| boot theory.
|
| Personally, for the type of work I do, I rarely need the
| latest ludicrously fast CPU. But I use it a lot and love to
| do so comfortably. To me, that means a great screen, a
| quiet fan, and a nice keyboard and touchpad.
|
| Buying a mediocre computer and changing it more often means
| you'll always have a mediocre experience. A case in point:
| at work we have HP Elitebooks. The brand-new 2025 models I
| see people receive have worse screens and trackpads than my
| 2013 MBP. Sure, that box was quite a bit pricier even in
| nominal terms, but it had the same amount of RAM (16 GB)
| and SSD (512 GB) as these new computers. I'll also grant
| that the new ones have a faster CPU but the SSDs are
| somehow absurdly slow. I haven't seen a single one of these
| machines last more than 10 years fully functional. My mom
| still uses that MBP.
|
| But the experience is sub-par. In the period 2013-2015, we
| never got to experience a nice laptop. For the office work
| these people do, that 12-year-old Mac would be an all-
| around better experience.
|
| The HP screens at the time were truly horrendous. They're
| leagues better now but _still_ poor and clearly worse than
| the 2013 mac. They are relatively contrasty, but the colors
| are all weird.
|
| The trackpads have also improved a lot, but there still is
| some kind of odd lag when you use them [0]. They're
| horrible enough that many people still prefer carrying a
| mouse when using them away from their desks, and the mice
| we're provided aren't some Rolls-Royce ultra-premium
| affair, just a crappy, laggy Bluetooth Dell.
|
| They also degrade from daily use: the screen hinge loosens
| so it moves if you look at it wrong, barrel power
| connectors from older models somehow become unreliable, and
| USB ports start to get loose (although when new they tend
| to be extremely tight). USB-C ports tend to become mushy.
|
| Newer models tend to be quieter, but up until a few models
| ago, the fan would go wild for no reason (I work with many
| "non tech" people, so they basically use Outlook and browse
| a few random websites).
|
| Now, if you only ever use your laptop tethered to a big
| screen and whatnot, and it's basically a very compact and
| easy-to-cart-around desktop, then sure, I can understand
| not caring one bit about all this: you never go out in the
| rain, so you never get wet feet!
|
| ---
|
| [0] This is possibly a Windows driver issue, since on my
| lower-end Elitebook (840 vs 1040) from 2020 running Linux,
| this doesn't happen.
| arghwhat wrote:
| > I think this is much less general than you make it out
| to be and has an extremely strong dependency on how you
| use the thing and of your preference. It makes me think
| of the boot theory.
|
| The boot theory is different: It is about buying
| something not crafted with proper materials which will
| quickly fall apart and cost more in the long run.
| However, unlike technology, there is no cowhide 2.0
| coming out 6 months after, with all leather made the
| cowhide 1.0 way instantly dropping in value and fading
| into irrelevancy.
|
| Low-end laptops tend to be build around older SKU's which
| are no longer of interest but function no worse than they
| did when launched, and mid-tier laptops tend to be made
| with current SKU's in the more reasonable binning
| categories.
|
| At the same time, the replacement rate also means that
| whatever high-end laptop will soon have its rear handed
| to it by a mid-tier machine of the next chip generation.
| While it's outdated within a year or two you of course
| won't replace it that soon, but that upgrade might
| stretch your upgrade schedule 50% to justify it - from,
| say, 4 years to 6. More years of being generations
| behind.
|
| Keeping a Framework around for longer also only makes
| sense when considering upgradability.
|
| > A case in point: at work we have HP Elitebooks. The
| brand-new 2025 models I see people receive have worse
| screens and trackpads than my 2013 MBP
|
| HP Elitebooks are expensive, high-end machines. The
| issues you see is because HP, Dell and Lenovo all cater
| to IT department buying strategies, and therefore all
| offer a bargain screen option as the machines are bought
| in bulk and mostly used docked. You'll find that they
| also have an mid-tier screen option (usually a color-
| accurate 1080p or 1440p panel), as well as a high-end
| option (say, 4k OLED touchscreen with wacom digitizer).
|
| The trackpad is a different story entirely. If you're
| used to a Mac trackpad, things are a bit grim on the PC
| side. There's some nice ones coming out though.
|
| > They also degrade from daily use: the screen hinge
| loosens so it moves if you look at it wrong
|
| Everything degrades from daily use. My hinge loosened on
| my last Mac, the screen damaged itself because the 15"
| panel did not have the necessary rigidity to main the
| intended 0.5mm gap to the keyboard keys (confirmed as the
| second panel did the same), the shitty magsafe port
| overheated as using pogopins for high power transfer is a
| _terrible_ idea, all I /O on one side died, and the
| battery had inflated at least once...
|
| My Dell XPS 13 costing 1/3rd never had any problems, and
| when replaced it just felt a bit slow and had a somewhat
| aged battery.
|
| Price is not an indicator of quality or expected
| reliability, nor is the brand itself a reliable
| indicator. Use common sense, take a look at the product
| and avoid the bottom of the bargain bin.
|
| ---
|
| Do get a good mouse and keyboard though, it has a much
| more direct impact on your user experience and a mouse
| that costs twice as much isn't as much of an issue as a
| _laptop_ costing twice as much. The keyboard and mouse
| also lasts longer if kept well.
| aydyn wrote:
| The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of
| upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy
| experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just
| absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.
| casenmgreen wrote:
| I have a 12th Gen 13. No problems like that.
| slabity wrote:
| The sharp edges are exclusively an issue with the Framework
| 16 due to the spacers that allow you to change the
| alignment of the trackpad. It's definitely been one of my
| main annoyances with my F16 that I didn't experience with
| my F13. I've been scratched by them and had my arm hair
| caught and pulled.
|
| However, Framework has already indicated that they are
| looking into providing an input module that spans the
| entire width of the device to eliminate the need for the
| spacers.
|
| I don't really know what the "creaking screen" is about
| though. IMO the F16 screen and hinges are a higher build
| quality than the F13. I had to upgrade my F13 hinges to the
| 4kg hinges to keep it from bouncing and moving.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| > I don't really know what the "creaking screen" is about
| though. IMO the F16 screen and hinges are a higher build
| quality than the F13. I had to upgrade my F13 hinges to
| the 4kg hinges to keep it from bouncing and moving.
|
| I think the comment was referring to the noise of the
| spacers, unless the author also thought it was in
| relation to the display. So to clarify, the display makes
| no noise whatsoever and neither do the hinges. The noise
| shown in the video is specifically about the trackpad and
| keyboard spacers.
| kelnos wrote:
| I had a 12th-gen 13", and I had severe thermal throttling
| problems that took _two years_ for Framework to resolve to
| my satisfaction (eventually they gave me a free 13th-gen
| upgrade that "solved" it).
|
| I think the "I have X and don't see problems the author
| has" is a generally useless statement. Well, duh, sure,
| it's pretty rare that everyone will have the same problems.
| And some people will end up having no problems at all. But
| that doesn't invalidate the experiences of the people who
| _do_ have problems.
| GenerWork wrote:
| >Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they
| expect a premium experience, but no where is there an
| evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and
| repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention
| of the configurability.
|
| I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect
| when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that
| Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's
| frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value
| proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| > an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and
| repeatability of the machine
|
| The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the
| consumers participating in it.
| Frotag wrote:
| I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop
| to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah
| I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most
| people.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| Apple continues to be the elephant in the repairability
| room. You want something that likely won't need repair ever
| for its useful lifetime, a current MacBook is worth looking
| at. Upgradeability, nope.
| tim333 wrote:
| They are less repairable but not impossible. My M1 Air
| has had a new usb port and screen. Battery probably soon.
| robrain wrote:
| Yup, Apple user since 2001, desktop and laptop, 20ish
| years in an office environment used for 8+ hours a day,
| now 5 years retired. Total faults - zero. Desire to
| upgrade RAM before rest of machine needed updates (eg
| storage+CPU+screen) - zero. Dissatisfaction with "Apple
| model": zero.
|
| But... lately I've felt a hankering to run Linux as a
| first-class citizen rather than a VM and that's
| definitely a gap in Mac functionality. I wouldn't
| sacrifice the five years I enjoy MacOS on my machines for
| the ability to then move them to Linux, but it would
| still be nice.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| I think the farther allow non-free implementations of
| technology to go, the harder it will be to bring us back
| from the brink.
|
| We sacrifice our freedom now, because of convenience and
| feature sets thinking everything is going to work out in
| the end. In 25 years I think we are all going to look
| back on this moment and wish we didn't make the choices
| we did, myself included.
| Terretta wrote:
| Having managed fleets of Macs (along with Windows and
| Linux machines) at last three $worksplace, repair/replace
| is no more hassle with Apple than Lenovo.
|
| Arguably less, as if you have the right relationship with
| Apple, you can let your employee walk into any Genius
| Bar(tm) for fix, or walk into Apple Store or visit your
| own smart hands crew (with inventory on hand), for an
| incredibly straightforward swap.
|
| And to your point, it's almost never needed.
| fmajid wrote:
| Enterprises that buy ThinkPads do care about
| maintainability and Lenovo does provide parts and detailed
| instructions to repair almost every aspect of their
| machines.
| ExoticPearTree wrote:
| They most likely have contracts with them Lenovo and were
| former users of IBM.
|
| I haven't heard of any big company tyat repairs their own
| hardware in about 20 or so years.
| kelnos wrote:
| Your assertion seems to be trivially proven false, given that
| Framework still exists as a going concern.
|
| Though I suppose what you say is perhaps still true, if you
| allow "almost" to do a lot of work.
| Terretta wrote:
| One can move the word "almost" to make more sense: it's
| only _almost_ a market even if everyone in it is rabid
| about those features.
|
| It's not a substantial share of the overall laptop market
| because, quoting from above...
|
| _people don't consider the ability to repair or upgrade
| your machine part of a "premium" experience ... will lament
| how manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then
| turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable
| laptop_
|
| The flip side is technorati gripe about Apple (lack of)
| repairability, but their _revealed preference_ then shifts
| back to this: a claim to want reliability but actions of
| shoppings for premium performance and fit and finish in
| slim value-holding form factors. To achieve those,
| particularly with durable value (and resale value to prove
| it), there 's a way to make things that "repairability"
| generally makes compromises from.
|
| Research has suggested Apple's approach -- laptops with 4x
| the usable and resalable life span -- results in less
| e-waste per capita than both the disposable and repairable
| ecosystems.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I think there _is_ a revealed preference that most people
| don 't focus much on repairability, but I _don 't_ think
| it's at odds with a good form factor.
| ExoticPearTree wrote:
| I am not focused on doing it myself. The most that I care
| about doing myself is buying a new charging cable if
| somehow I damage the one the laptop comes with.
|
| And I have this feeling most people are kind of the same
| page as me.
| wmf wrote:
| Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for
| the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it
| hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.
| fruitworks wrote:
| you get another mainboard to use as a sever or resell
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I think what's lost here is when the framework project was
| launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and
| reliability was unknown.
|
| Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a
| whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable
| enough that ram failures aren't front of mind. Same for SSDs.
| wmf wrote:
| Gaming laptops tend to have replaceable RAM and SSD so the
| advantage of Framework 16 is much less.
| ddtaylor wrote:
| The current benefit for a Framework is that you can swap
| out the entire inner/guts without being an expert and
| everything still works together. Most of the laptops I
| have provide 2 SO-DIMM slots and a slot for either NVME
| or SATA for storage.
|
| So for me, there is little value in that in most
| scenarios. There are a few laptop chassis that I am very
| fond of and have wished I could "use that chassis with
| that hardware", but even then I haven't seen Framework
| chassis designs that give me that impression. I'm not
| saying they're crappy, but I'm thinking of different
| types of brushed metal, magnesium alloy stuff, etc.
| wyre wrote:
| It makes me wonder who their audience is if they are
| targeting users that will pay a premium for an upgradable
| system, but are afraid of modifying the guts of the
| computer.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Replaceable GPU and CPU is the big draw draw for me.
| Heck, the config nature of the shop also means I can chop
| off buying ram and memory instead of haggling with the
| store, since I have quite a few spare sticks lying
| around.
| piskov wrote:
| > replacing a stick of ram
|
| How often does your RAM fail you?
| Octoth0rpe wrote:
| The use case is to replace an existing working stick with
| a higher capacity stick, not just for repairs.
| culopatin wrote:
| On my experience, every time I've been in the situation
| of looking for more capacity because the software
| requirements have gone up, I'm 1-2 generations of DDR
| behind and it doesn't really make sense to do the upgrade
| anyway.
| IshKebab wrote:
| How often are you actually going to do that though? My
| desktop from 12 years ago has 16GB of RAM and Apple only
| _just_ upgraded their base specs to 16GB.
|
| Ok granted my new desktops have 128GB, but that's massive
| overkill so I can have like 12 VSCode's open. For normal
| people 16GB has been the sensible amount for at least a
| decade.
| Octoth0rpe wrote:
| I tend to agree. But some people at least want the
| option. I would also say only in 2025 has that shifted
| for me as well. I've been perfectly fine with 16gb of ram
| for at least a decade, but local LLMs have me wanting for
| more.
| ExoticPearTree wrote:
| Considerinng how much memory Chrome consumes, I would say
| that 16GB is the bare minimum these days for any
| computer.
| kuschku wrote:
| Currently? Every 1.5 years, luckily still within warranty
| the last few times. Different systems, different
| manufacturers, different generations.
|
| But that's an edge case, and I still don't really
| understand why it's happening.
| loeg wrote:
| Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into
| better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim
| that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury"
| territory.
| kace91 wrote:
| >Is 2000 eur even a lot of money?
|
| It's my entire professional life's computer investment - a
| MacBook Pro in 2013 and an m1 MacBook on 2020.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon
| cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly.
| But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and
| this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least
| with the 16 inch model.
| zipy124 wrote:
| 2000 euros gets you a 5070ti, i7 , 240hz screen, 32gb ram and
| 2tb storage. And with some left over.... That's a pretty nice
| laptop.
|
| https://www.scan.co.uk/products/16-3xs-gamer-5070-ti-
| qhdplus...
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I think you've brought a really interesting point up. A lot of
| these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation.
| Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn't in
| the right spot.
|
| The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that
| doesn't have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge,
| hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and
| repairability being bad for business)
|
| So, a framework laptop, that's as light, thin and fast as a
| mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs
| to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get
| to this and the more customers they can please.
| oldestofsports wrote:
| 2000 euros was a premium price 10 years ago, today it is closer
| to mid range
| vanviegen wrote:
| Uhh... What?
| thiht wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted, that's a ridiculous
| statement. 2000EUR for a laptop is definitely premium
| pricing, not mid range.
| oldestofsports wrote:
| I wouldn't call anything with less than 64gb of memory
| premium, and if we look at macbooks were already looking
| above 3000
| codygman wrote:
| I think they are saying you sound like:
|
| "It's One Banana, Michael. What Could It Cost, $10?" -
| Lucille Bluth
| justin66 wrote:
| > I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don't
| consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of
| a "premium" experience, but that's is just something I have to
| accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture
| places so little value on it though.
|
| Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at
| roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually
| care about upgradeability and repairability. This feeling took
| me by surprise. Modern Macbooks are just _so much better_ in
| terms of feel it 's like comparing tech from a different
| decade.
|
| (it also turns out that having a defect that the manufacturer
| doesn't make right can cause a person to feel a few different
| things, but gratitude for the product's repairability isn't at
| the top of the list)
| osigurdson wrote:
| Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like
| hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness
| and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long
| as it lasts 8 years.
| esseph wrote:
| This is exactly what I want.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| IMHO I dont think people are considering what you lose when
| you cant upgrade, You get locked in to a device
| artificially created life cycle that's dictated by the
| manufacturer.
|
| I understand where you are coming from, I guess it just
| makes me sad to see more and more people moving away from
| tech that is less in their control. And i consider
| upgradability and modularity and important aspect of that.
| Philadelphia wrote:
| We never had anything different, though. Computers always
| became so obsolete after a while that there was no longer
| any point in trying to upgrade them. I think I got eight
| years out of my 1997 Power Mac G3, including a CPU
| upgrade to a G4, RAM upgrades, hard disk upgrades, a
| video card, and USB expansion, but then the new machines
| coming out were just so much better that throwing money
| into more upgrades was just tossing it into a black hole.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| I guess its a byproduct of a faster moving curve with
| improved technology. 20 years ago you didn't need to
| replace the entire platform for at least 10 years.
| WackyFighter wrote:
| Maybe in the late 90s and early 2000s. These days
| hardware from over a decade ago works fine. I am typing
| this comment on a 2011 Dell E6410. Install Debian / Arch
| Linux and the machine is surprisingly capable. Just
| running HTOP I am using 2.5G of ram (out of 8GB) and the
| CPU is at 2%.
|
| TBH, I have a Ryzen 5950X based tower and while it is
| faster than my previous desktop which was a i7 4970K (or
| whatever it is), the previous machine would be fine tbh.
| I am not even sure why I upgraded tbh.
| osigurdson wrote:
| Is it artificial though, really? You buy whatever is
| available now and it eventually becomes obsolete and you
| have to buy a new one. Maybe there is some kind of multi
| vendor collusion going on but it doesn't seem that
| likely.
|
| Where I think repairability really makes sense is in
| things that don't materially improve and should last 30
| years (e.g. appliances).
| trinsic2 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure part of the reason of integrating
| everything on the board has some nefarious reasons, at
| least on Laptop's. Louis Rossman talked about a design
| flaw in Apple Macbooks where if the SSD fails, in my
| cases, your system will fail to power up because the
| mainboard is designed to fail when the SSD fails.(If I am
| interpreting that correctly)[0]. Remember this flaw is in
| the Macbooks where the SSD's are soldiered into the
| board. IMHO there are ways to design integrated hardware
| in such a way where failures minimize damage and I think
| many companies decide its not in there best interest to
| design hardware to prevent that. IMHO this is done in bad
| faith.
|
| [0}: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qbrLiGY4Cg
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| If there's an ability to upgrade my GPU 3 years in but I
| can't, then yes. It's artificial. We just got way too
| comfortable with the mentality of throwing out everything
| and getting new cheap tech overtime.
|
| I guess the one thing AI is doing that's good for this
| scene will be to make people value what they have more.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Who is "we"?
| jimmaswell wrote:
| My partner with a Macbook works on AI and has told me how
| great Apple silicon is, and their Macbook would run so
| many things so well.. except they don't have enough RAM
| and there's no way to upgrade it..
| Lio wrote:
| I'm in the same boat as your partner except that I
| generally max the RAM in my laptop when buying it.
|
| The thing is it would probably be the same issue with a
| Framework or any other brand of laptop as they all have
| some final limit on RAM or GPU RAM.
|
| If you upgrade the GPU or motherboard you have to ask
| what will happen to the old one. You can reuse some of
| them but most probably will just be e-waste.
|
| There's a chance when upgrading a whole laptop that the
| old one will a new use somewhere.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I'm a hoarder so I'd just keep it around. I still have my
| Playstation 2 after all.
|
| Every laptop except my first college one is also
| somewhere around my house. Even my $300 high school
| laptop that could really only run Microsoft Word (I
| remember running Fallout 3 on it at lowest settings at a
| brisk 10 fps). Even for that college laptop I salvaged
| the storage, ram, and disk drive.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Yeah I agree. You can get _two_ base MacBook Airs for the
| price of that laptop. A base MacBook Air is a very very
| capable machine.
| pjmlp wrote:
| And has enough UNIX for those that care.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Some people around me prolesytize these modern Macbooks
| endlessly but I don't quite get it. I've tried them but I
| still love my Framework 16 to bits and I'd take it any day of
| the week. The Macbooks are great machines, and one thing I
| can say in their favor is the battery life is phenomenal, but
| I prefer my Framework's aesthetics and feel - it feels more
| like I'm holding something I've worked on and made my own vs
| just bought, I prefer the shiny metal over the dull gray of
| the Macbooks, the keyboard and trackpad are just as good (and
| I love the rgb pad I have in place of a numpad), and taking
| it apart/replacing modules just feels so _cool_. I 've also
| saved those friends various times by lending an expansion
| card, usually usb-A.
| Moldoteck wrote:
| First time I read that the trackpad of Framework is 'just
| as good' as in macbooks
| justin66 wrote:
| > the keyboard and trackpad are just as good
|
| The keyboard on my framework 13 is fine but it's got a very
| sketchy touchpad and that classic symptom of a modern,
| shitty laptop: the whole thing flexes if I pick it up by
| the corner, and oftentimes actuates the trackpad button.
| Other times if I'm sitting in an unfavorable position the
| machine flexes and the trackpad button no longer works.
| Compare that with the rigidity of a modern Macbook.
| bobbob27 wrote:
| Framework 14 is the original (and best tbh). The 13 and
| 16 unfortunately don't hit the balance of feeling premium
| like the 14 does. This thread has me wondering if they
| really diluted their reputation with these new devices...
| justin66 wrote:
| I meant 14, then. I bought my framework from the third or
| fourth batch that was available (going from memory), in
| November 2021 (going from email).
|
| Nothing premium about it at all. That's ridiculous in my
| opinion, the quality is cringe in comparison to an Apple.
| On the other hand, I've got four years of use out of it,
| so... whatever.
|
| I _wanted_ to love it very badly, and they did the right
| thing with the camera and audio cutoff switches and their
| location. But that wasn't enough to make it a great
| laptop.
| conception wrote:
| Also buying a laptop that's not subsidized by ads and
| shovelware.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Please subsidize it by ads and shovelware, I'm not going to
| use the factory image anyways.
| conception wrote:
| Take heart Steve Jobs' warning. If/When ads/shovelware are
| what are bringing in the money then they are the ones that
| end up running the company.
| Levitating wrote:
| Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're
| forced to buy it. Framework offers repairable laptops at a
| fixed price. To some the repairability adds enough value to
| warrant the higher prices, to some it doesn't. (As well as
| customizability and mainline Linux kernel support).
|
| I've found that if you're in the habit of repairing laptops,
| Frameworks may come cheap to you as you might have spare
| storage and ram around. Not being forced to buy ram and storage
| is one of the "luxuries" of buying framework.
| c0balt wrote:
| > Not being forced to buy ram and storage is one of the
| "luxuries" of buying framework.
|
| To be fair at least Lenovo and to some extent dell also offer
| this for individual customers.
|
| It usually is not an option on the latest processors for
| premium models though as soldered RAM becomes more prevalent
| there. A minor problem of the author might be that they are
| looking at the relatively high tier models, which ime have
| less options for "saving" money, while something like a
| thinkpad e14 might also have been a good candidate instead.
| llmslave2 wrote:
| > Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if
| they're forced to buy it.
|
| This happens all the time, especially with Apple. Complaints
| about the inability to side load or use alternative stores
| for example. Nobody forced you to buy it. It's stupid when
| people do it for Apple and it's stupid when they do it for
| Framework.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I'd say comparing hardware vs software is very different.
| If there were 5+ competing OS's with decent market share,
| maybe you'd have a point there. But the reality is that
| mobile software is controlled by 2 trillionaire tech
| companies that made use of anti-competitive measures to
| prevent consumer alternatives.
|
| Heck maybe even 3. The desktop scene doesn't feel that much
| better, but them all allowing "sideloading" as we call it
| today alleviates full control of the OS.
| idle_zealot wrote:
| > Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if
| they're forced to buy it.
|
| What is the implication of this? You're not allowed to
| criticize a product unless you're being forced to buy it?
| What is the list of companies you're allowed to levy any
| critiques of, then? Your electricity provider? You could
| always move, right?
|
| Is this the mentality that leads people to only ever
| criticize government power and let all others off the hook?
| Levitating wrote:
| I sometimes feel like people criticize products as if they
| were offered to them personally. The pricing of a product
| may be absurd to them but if it were absurd to everyone
| there wouldn't be a market for it.
|
| You can objectively compare the features between two
| products and criticize them that way. But to criticize the
| price you need to attach a monetary value to those
| features. With a framework one of those features is
| repairability, which to some is worth nothing, and to
| others it's worth a whole lot.
|
| So is the frameworks pricing absurd? That depends on the
| person buying.
| anamexis wrote:
| So you're not allowed to criticize pricing unless you're
| forced to buy it?
| Levitating wrote:
| I am not prohibiting anyone from doing anything. I am
| just saying I don't think people should criticize pricing
| _as if_ they 're forced to buy it.
| jdujfkhllhl wrote:
| Do you have any evidence that anyone, ever, has been
| forced to buy a (framework) laptop?
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| I think the people criticizing would be _potential_ customers
| who are voicing the issues that are preventing them from
| purchacing one. For example, I would criticize the lack of a
| trackpoint equivalent. And in fact, I 'm not purchasing one
| because it doesn't have a trackpoint. If they listened to my
| complaint, I'd be much more inclined to buy one. (Not right
| away -- I'm not on the market for a laptop right now -- maybe
| 3 years down the line.)
| simonjgreen wrote:
| I for one am delighted with my Framework laptop that started
| out as an Intel, is now an AMD, and has seen 3 rounds of in
| life upgrades. Zero regrets.
|
| The author should have just bought a MacBook.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer
| as much in upgradeability as it sounds. While it can be
| compared to laptops without modular RAM, SSDs, or Wi-Fi cards,
| the real comparison is to laptops with modular ones of those
| for significantly less and suddenly the amount of
| upgradeability value drops significantly. Unofficially, many of
| the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen
| on as well. The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU
| while keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not
| that high in terms of upgradeability - especially with the
| breadth of selection so far. In the meantime, you're paying
| significantly more for less quality to have said ability.
|
| To me, the core value proposition of the Framework is actually
| more in customization than about upgradeability. That's just a
| lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can place your port layouts
| in any order you want, you can customize the keyboard style and
| layout, your order builds up without really assuming you want a
| charger, RAM, and SSD to be included. If you don't particularly
| care about those things or you can find a laptop which matches
| what you want up front then it just leaves you questioning the
| massive price increase to do it the Framework way instead.
|
| I'd really like to enjoy the idea of fully upgradeable laptops,
| but I think trying out a Framework laptop just made me realize
| how much it doesn't work out like I'd hoped rather than making
| me more excited for it. I ended up returning it and,
| ironically, getting a 395 laptop with soldered RAM (in my
| defense, Framework sells a desktop with this as well).
| axelthegerman wrote:
| I don't see why upgrading a motherboard to one with a newer
| generation CPU is not valuable. Or why going 16 to 32 GB RAM
| a few years after buying it first isn't.
|
| Yes full upgradability of each component would be pretty nice
| but now we have a desktop and factors like compactness and
| "premium feel" would be even worse
| zamadatix wrote:
| I only said the value is not that high, not that it's not
| valuable at all. Paying a premium up front and on the
| upgrade to swap out the CPU + Motherboard (also forcing the
| GPU on certain Framework models) eats heavily into that
| limited value vs just buying lower cost laptops that aren't
| as modular.
|
| Regarding the RAM, again, you don't need to pay for a
| Framework to do be able to do that. Same for the SSD. These
| are probably the two most reasonable components to upgrade,
| and it's not novel to have options to do so.
|
| That full upgradeability actually doesn't make sense in the
| end is my exact point/realization I had trying it out. You
| can get somewhat upgradeable laptops where it makes sense
| already, and compromising every which way to be more
| upgradable is a hugely diminishing return.
| zajio1am wrote:
| In my experience, when there is a time to replace the
| CPU/board by a newer one, the case if a notebook also
| accumulated enough wear and tear damage that make sense to
| replace it.
|
| And when not, replacing whole notebook means i still have
| the old one, which i could use as a backup or sell or give
| to someone.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn 't actually
| offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. [..,]
| Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to
| upgrade even the screen on as well._
|
| The Framework's screen _is_ officially upgradeable, though,
| and I see that as a strength: while you or I might not blink
| at doing an unofficial screen replacement for some other
| laptop, I 'm sure most people would be afraid to attempt
| something like that.
|
| I've also (officially) replaced the webcam (new one is
| definitely better) and speakers (new ones are better but
| still meh). When my battery starts to go, I'll replace it
| with the higher-capacity battery that's available now.
|
| So it's definitely quite a bit more than just RAM, SSD, Wi-
| Fi.
|
| > _The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU while
| keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not that
| high in terms of upgradeability_
|
| I agree on the RAM: I have a Framework 13, and my next
| mainboard upgrade will require new RAM (which is of course
| crazy expensive right now), as my current board uses DDR4.
| But I view that as a forced upgrade; if I didn't _have_ to go
| to DDR5, I 'd probably stick with DDR4, and I'm sure it would
| be fine, even if not optimal.
|
| But I really don't understand or agree with your comment
| about the SSD. I have a 2TB NVMe drive in my current laptop,
| and I expect I'll be using the same drive for years to come,
| certainly through my next mainboard upgrade, and probably
| even the following one.
|
| > _That 's just a lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can
| place your port layouts in any order you want, you can
| customize the keyboard style and layout,_
|
| Right, agreed: I have not changed the layout of my ports in
| more than a year at this point, and I never changed the
| keyboard style/layout. It _was_ nice to be able to easily
| replace the keyboard when my original one developed issues a
| few months ago (not Framework 's fault... it was my cat's
| fault), at least.
|
| But I think all of this is a matter of taste. I expect there
| are some people who change out their expansion ports fairly
| often. It's fine that I don't value that feature as much as I
| expected I would.
|
| My expectation is that I'll have this laptop chassis for
| another 10 or so years, probably with 2-3 mainboard upgrades
| in that time. My prior two (non-Framework) laptops were in
| the $1800-$2000 range, each of which lasted three years, and
| had significantly less RAM than my Framework does (those two
| laptops weren't even offered with 32GB, let alone the 64GB I
| have now).
|
| My next mainboard upgrade will likely be the cost of that new
| laptop, given the crazy cost of DDR5 right now (though it
| looks like I'd be paying Dell around $2400 for a 13" laptop
| with 64GB; I could probably do the Framework mainboard
| upgrade plus RAM for $1800 or so). But maybe the next-next
| mainboard upgrade will still use DDR5, and I'll get a brand-
| new computer for around $1k. That's a really great value prop
| for me.
| zamadatix wrote:
| "Most people" don't upgrade individual components of their
| desktop or spend thousands on their computer either,
| especially beyond the storage and RAM, so I'm not sure who
| the average person it's supposed to comfort that it's
| official vs not to do things as small as upgrade the screen
| out of cycle from upgrading the rest of the machine.
| Framework is, unfortunately, positioned in every way for
| exactly the type of person who would do this (high end,
| willing to assemble, Linux compatibility, customization -
| it's all exactly that kind of power user target). I mean
| I'd like it to make sense, it just doesn't.
|
| Same with replacing parts vs customizing them on equivalent
| "standard" laptops. I've had to replace the keyboard on my
| laptops due to failure/damage once in the last 10 years,
| each time it took less than 15 minutes. Would it be nice if
| it was 3 minutes? Sure, but how much is 12 minutes really
| worth paying for and what do I lose for it in terms of the
| sturdiness problems with Framework.
|
| Barring the decision to go with something like the 395
| where standard RAM wouldn't make sense for it anyways
| (which is why Framework didn't make the RAM modular in the
| desktop version) there is nothing special about Framework
| that lets you reuse RAM between upgrades giving Framework
| an advantage. Every other normal x86 laptop I've ever used
| has had swappable RAM I've taken advantage of without
| paying $1800 for even the entire laptop, let alone the
| upgrade board.
|
| There is some subjective preference in it all of course,
| but it seems that is just for a lot fewer people than it
| might have seemed. I.e. I don't see average people buying
| $500 laptops ever going for this and it almost feels like
| it has already reached its peak interest in the tech crowd
| too.
| fphhotchips wrote:
| This is the first time I've ever even heard of unofficial
| screen upgrades even being _possible_, and I'm at least
| two standard deviations from the mean on the "likes to
| tinker" scale.
|
| I can't even begin to think about how a laptop screen
| upgrade would go. Who's manufacturing them? How do I get
| just one? How do I make sure I don't spend a month
| waiting for shipping and get a fake? How do I make sure
| the housing is going to fit right? How do I make sure the
| pin outs match?
|
| ... and etc etc. An official upgrade pathway eliminates
| all of that. Sure, it's not bringing you back to "average
| person", but Framework have been super clear that's not
| who they're after. They want people in my bracket. To be
| honest, as a cohort, we've proven we're willing to
| (over)pay for this kind of thing, too. It's why the PC
| Market still exists despite graphics cards being
| overpriced by about double.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I don't think it's particularly common for techies to
| upgrade the screen, just that they are the only ones who
| would because... well, upgrading a screen usually isn't
| ever needed. The only reason I did is work was offloading
| some good laptops for low cost but they had sub-1080p
| screens. I took one with a broken screen for free and
| when I did the replacement I used a higher end model's
| replacement part.
|
| I.e. the only different part is finding a laptop of the
| same screen size and eDP (embedded Display Port)
| generation to select from. The rest is the same. If
| you've already got a good screen it's usually not
| possible though as you're limited by the eDP generation's
| speed instead of the panel.
| kelnos wrote:
| I'm torn on your take, because on one hand I agree
| wholeheartedly (I own a Framework 13, and considered the
| repairability to be a part of the price, and a little added
| bulk to be a trade off I was comfortable with), but on the
| other, I think there's just some entirely-reasonable human
| psychology at work here that expects a EUR2k laptop to be
| premium in fit, finish, and polish.
|
| But I do think Framework still has a ways to go when it comes
| to polish and build quality. I've had my 13 since August 2022,
| and had a ton of problems with it (thermal issues) that were
| only resolved nearly two years later, after lots of frustrating
| back-and-forth with support. I'm _very_ happy with the laptop
| these days, but it shouldn 't have taken that long to get
| there. I now have the 2023 Intel mainboard (the final
| resolution to my support case), and I'm looking forward to
| upgrading it to whatever the 2026 model turns out to be[0].
|
| For me, Framework has been sort of a "stick with it for a while
| and it will get better" type of experience. And while it's
| worked out, that shouldn't be how it works. It should work well
| on day one. And frankly, based on the author's description of
| the Framework 16, it sounds like the 16 is not even up to the
| 13's level of polish.
|
| [0] Well, we'll see what DRAM prices look like next year, as I
| have 64GB of DDR4 in my current laptop, and that same amount of
| DDR5 is not something I'd want to pay for right now.
| ragall wrote:
| High-end ThinkPads were always very repairable (even if not
| upgradable wrt. motherboard). The P50 I bought 10 years ago
| came with 4 RAM slots (and ECC capable), 3 disk slots,
| removable battery and way more ports than a Framework.
|
| It really baffles me how people are willing to put up with
| the flimsiness of the Framework. Maybe they only move it from
| the desk to a sofa ? There are enough reports of Framework
| laptops dying after being carried too many times or being
| dropped. The lack of structural integrity is killing them,
| and this is all due to the approach to port flexibility.
| ip26 wrote:
| Upgradable _to what_? The ability to upgrade is well and good,
| but suppose the "endgame" configuration of an upgradable laptop
| was worse than the very base model of a non-upgradable. Why
| would you care about upgradability then?
| kelnos wrote:
| That's a weird argument/hypothetical, because the Framework
| is _not_ worse than the very base model of a non-upgradeable
| laptop.
| ip26 wrote:
| It's an extreme framing for the sake of thought experiment.
| More specifically, I believe for "upgradable" to be a
| meaningful sellable feature you need something like this:
|
| LaptopA costs more than low-spec LaptopB. But LaptopB can
| be user upgraded post-purchase to be strictly superior to
| LaptopA (even though this costs a bit more in the end)
|
| Or
|
| LaptopA costs more than LaptopB. But LaptopB can be
| upgraded and customized to be superior than LaptopA under
| certain parameters (say, a high quality display) for a
| lower total price than LaptopA.
| HeWhoLurksLate wrote:
| Upgrading to a new processor, or in the case of Framework,
| perhaps better hinges or keyboards or the like is IMO much
| more important to the long term desirability of a laptop than
| a 5% better keyboard or trackpad or RGB LEDs on the chassis.
|
| I feel like the term "endgame" has completely lost its
| meaning - an "endgame" laptop is likely to be wholly
| irrelevant in at most ten years, especially so if you buy a
| super high end machine and expect high end machine things
| from it long term.
| ip26 wrote:
| Yeah, it's a dumb term, sorry. Top spec? Whatever it is.
|
| Certainly it's fair to argue that the top spec will
| continue to grow year over year, like happens with long
| lived desktop CPU sockets. Framework is bearing this out!
| But that spec does have to actually be GOOD!
|
| This is the hard part about what they are trying to do. Is
| a 12th gen in a Framework better than a 10th gen in an
| fully integrated laptop? If not, what does being able to
| upgrade to 12th gen mean?
|
| The IBM PC platform worked so well because every annual
| component upgrade was an immense step forward. The macs, by
| contrast, began to dominate when the annual upgrades began
| to provide less benefit than seamless vertical integration
| did...
| Oleksa_dr wrote:
| >Upgrading to a new processor You cannot upgrade the
| processor yourself. This is either an expensive repair or
| replacement of the entire motherboard.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Is it fair to say that maybe the author doesn't value
| repairability? Maybe they just want a 'premium' laptop in the
| way the Apple laptops are premium, but want x86 and
| Linux/Windows? Surely for as large as a market there is for
| Apple laptops there is for a non-macOS equivalent.
| monooso wrote:
| The author begins by stating that "the absolute nightmare
| that is opening [the X1 Carbon] up to replace parts or clean
| them properly" rules it out.
|
| He then eliminates the MacBook because if "something needs
| replacing I basically have an expensive paperweight, because
| everything is soldered together".
|
| This would suggest that the author does, in theory at least,
| value repairability.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| > but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by
| upgradability and repeatability
|
| Back in the day we used to have upgradeable laptops that
| weren't rattling tin cans with uncomfortable displays. Making
| something worse than it was 20 years ago for more money isn't a
| value.
| chickensong wrote:
| You're not calling out the upgrade ability enough.
|
| Most people comparing the price of a Framework seem to miss the
| long view. After the initial purchase, every upgrade is cheap
| compared to buying an entire laptop over and over again. Bonus
| that you can repurpose or sell the old mainboard.
|
| There are better laptops than Framework when compared as one-
| to-one at a certain point in time, but that's missing the point
| of Framework's approach.
| doug_durham wrote:
| The point is that a laptop is a tool that you use every day.
| It needed to be reliable and very usable. Framework is
| compromising on usability in the service of upgradeability.
| It seems like you can have refined tool, or a repairable one.
| chickensong wrote:
| Framework 13 11th gen has been my daily driver for years.
| It's reliable and very usable. Is it a $4k MBP? No. But
| compared to the bulk of laptops out there, one might even
| say it's refined I suppose. It's a sleek 3lb aluminum
| laptop. Like I said, there nicer laptops out there, but the
| Framework is a very capable tool.
| hakcermani wrote:
| I have a FW13, 3 yrs old, battery was getting weak, i just
| ordered one from FW and popped out the old one and put in a new
| one. Same for SSD and memory. This alone makes me stay with FW.
| codethief wrote:
| Not trying to change your mind but at least when it comes to
| exchanging the SSD and battery, you can do the same thing
| with practically all Thinkpads and Dells?
|
| Just did it with my old Dell a couple days ago - I was done
| in 5 minutes.
| leptons wrote:
| Not too long ago, in a galaxy pretty close to here, there
| were laptops with _removable batteries_ , and switching
| them required no tools and took all of about 10 seconds.
| wao0uuno wrote:
| Official battery replacements are impossible to find for
| older Lenovo models. I have a 4 year old X13 Yoga and can't
| really get a new official battery for it in my country. So
| while replacement is easy, finding the parts is not.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| You can do this with EliteBooks, and HP replaced my battery
| for free.
| kopirgan wrote:
| Replacing battery, KB, RAM, SSd in most Elitebook, Latitudes
| used to be easy. Not anymore atleast with Dell. Most RAM
| soldered.
|
| But if it lasts 3-4 years I guess many end up upgrading
| anyway. My Latitude 5330 has everything soldered even the
| disk but going strong for 3.5 years.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| > In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits:
| they're upgradable, repairable
|
| Why would you propose that the author does not care about these
| things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue
| voter - and who is, when buying something as complex as a
| laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made
| here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into
| some detail to explain as to why.
|
| I am super excited about Framework stuff: They are clearly
| getting somewhere with this; it's nicer than anything that came
| before with comparable repairability. I think it's super
| plausible that we don't exhaust the physical limitations that
| arise through repairability before it's so nice, that the
| trade-off will be negligible for most folks.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's
| price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for
| sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing
| the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison.
|
| I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see
| that many people don't want to pay or consider the
| ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given
| time. Most devices are designed to be throwaway, manufactures
| cut corners, operate at a loss. These are byproducts from our
| badly designed technology from a suitability perspective that
| have driven prices down in a unhealthy way IMHO.
|
| Its like trying to compare prices between now and fifty years
| ago. If you want the world to be more sustainable, you need
| to consider that its going to cost more, its not going to be
| comparable to whats out there right now, and you are going to
| need to deal with the growing pains.
|
| Comparing Framework laptop to whats out there today in terms
| of features is a losing proposition. The market is built
| around a lack of sustainability.
| cycomanic wrote:
| > IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's
| price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for
| sustainability.
|
| But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality
| but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to
| exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a
| high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and
| didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10
| year old X1 carbon is still going strong, I just had to
| take change the battery at some point, but that was not
| very difficult.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| I don't know if I consider Framework laptops poor
| quality. I wonder if you are considering the impact to
| the planet though. We have tons of waste everyday from
| devices that are not built with sustainability in mind.
| Yes Framework has a ways to go with that, but its the
| only company that I know thats really doing something
| about it. We have all these devices that if they are not
| built around sustainability in contributes to a worse
| climate and I worry what kind of world we are leaving
| behind for our children.
| codeflo wrote:
| This is unfortunately a pure "feels over logic" comment
| that doesn't engage with the parent poster's argument at
| all. The point is impact, not what anyone has "in mind".
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let
| me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my
| 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today.
| And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish
| years it did get.
|
| I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My
| industry more or less requires a stronger machine by
| default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX
| 3080m is starting to fall behind a bit. But not as
| drastically as the Moore's law era.
| pdimitar wrote:
| I am puzzled by the "GT 1050M is not competitive today"?
| What does that even mean?
|
| You are moving goal posts. Your parent clearly specified
| long-term stability and lack of repairs. Granted not all
| laptops are that durable. But many are. I have a pile of
| old laptops, one I clearly remember using it as a daily
| driver for development in the interval of 12 to 10 years
| ago. Just ran it yesterday, wanted to see if I can put it
| in a homemade computing cluster. Worked fine after being
| battered with Fold@Home for 12 hours.
|
| You did admit your bias, for which I am grateful. But
| admitting it or not, let's recognize it's still making
| people prone to judging from a filter bubble perspective.
| Barely any dev cares about GPU performance being
| competitive today. I am a fairly average dev and I and my
| kind care that the laptop can drive one 4K screen at 60Hz
| and that's it.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| [delayed]
| zuntaruk wrote:
| What's the measure we're using to define quality?
| pdimitar wrote:
| I would say durability. HN is obsessed by e-waste so
| pointing out that something can last 7+ years wins some
| over. Not being sarcastic, nor am I mocking anyone, I am
| stating an observation.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "People (not necessarily the author, [...] will lament how
| manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then turn
| around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop,
| or the price."
|
| I desire sturdyness and repairability but anything larger than
| a 14-inch machine (and then only either as detachable or at
| least convertible) is completely inacceptable to me. And that
| 14-incher better be a dream. In other words: As small and light
| as possible, as big and heavy as neccessary.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability
| and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically
| anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner
| mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically
| capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe
| once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually
| advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy to
| justify.
|
| So while upgradability and repairability are great to have,
| their material impact on day to day user experience is minimal,
| except maybe for people who have a tendency to severely
| underspec their initial hardware purchases. On the other hand,
| things like chassis rigidity, cooling performance, fan noise,
| and battery life being subpar are constant reminders that you
| spent a pretty penny on a laptop that's not meeting your needs.
|
| The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded
| and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is
| akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't
| stop people from wanting it anyway.
|
| As an aside, I believe that Framework could probably get closer
| to that ideal if they unchained themselves from the port module
| idea. Yes it's cool, but it forces all sorts of design
| compromises that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, and I'd bet
| that something like 80-90% of Framework buyers would be just as
| happy if changing ports required opening up the chassis,
| swapping out side plates, and doing a little bit of internal
| wiring.
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up
| until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port
| modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the
| point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be
| swapping ports all the time.
| simfree wrote:
| The replacement parts aren't cheap either as Framework has
| very little used parts market.
|
| I can rehouse a Thinkpad or most other high volume laptops
| for a quarter or less the cost of a Framework, making the
| total lifetime cost much lower. Framework will sell you a
| new housing with screen for $399, but at that point I can
| buy an 11th gen Thinkpad for half the cost.
|
| I want the economics to work, but even with free labor it
| makes no sense.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Have you ever tried dealing with Lenovo for parts or
| repairs ? My only experience with them was bleak and I
| never heard good stories on this front.
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| No, I've always gotten my Thinkpads and parts from eBay
| and other second-hand marketplaces.
| myself248 wrote:
| As the owner of a Framework 13, you're exactly right. It
| only has 4 ports, at least one of which is pretty much
| always for charging, and let's face it you will always want
| a USB-A, so that leaves two. If you want to be ready for
| HDMI output or SD cards, that occupies them both, better
| hope you didn't want another USB-A or whatever.
|
| Oh, and there's a permanent headphone jack, for some
| reason.
|
| Compare to my last Thinkpad (a T460), which had a charger
| jack, three USB-A, HDMI, RJ45, MiniDP, a headphone jack,
| and an SD slot. I didn't need to swap adapters because
| everything was just already there. (I never used the MiniDP
| or the headphone jack, but everything else, yeah.)
|
| If the Framework had 2 or 3 permanent USB-C's in addition
| to the 4 swappable ports, or just had 6 or 7 swappable
| ports, I'd be much happier. But as it sits, carrying a
| baggie of modules in my backpack is just silly.
|
| That said, it can do something super cool: Charge from
| either side. Because there are USB-C ports on both the left
| and right, and any of them can be a power inlet, I'm
| presently laying on my side in bed, with the charger
| plugged into the "top" side, i.e. the one that's not
| leaning into the mattress. When I roll over, I'll just move
| the cord.
|
| When I was shopping for my "next" (present) machine, I was
| able to find one Ideapad that claimed it had USB-C ports on
| both sides, but it was eye-wateringly expensive. I couldn't
| get Lenovo's site to tell me which cheaper models had this,
| and their support people couldn't produce such a list
| either. Finally in frustration, I decided to give my money
| to Framework instead, and the either-side charging is a
| trick I rely on frequently.
|
| My current load-out is two USB-C and two USB-A, one of each
| on each side.
| dagmx wrote:
| Quite a few laptops support dual side charging fwiw. It's
| definitely useful but not all that rare.
| bloak wrote:
| I first saw that feature on a cheap Chromebook and was a
| bit surprised. But I suppose the more expensive machines
| have great battery life (for the first year or so) and
| the people who own them are too cool to use a cable.
| myself248 wrote:
| Right, but there's no way to search for them, that I've
| found. Even if a machine has multiple USB-C ports, the
| only way to ascertain that they're on both sides is to
| find photos of both sides. It's not like a specific
| amount of RAM that you can just click a checkbox to
| filter by.
|
| And then you have to assume that the photos depict the
| actual model and variant you're getting, which is not
| always the case. It'd be a hard row to hoe, to return a
| machine based on "it had all the same ports it claimed,
| but in different places"...
| nh2 wrote:
| I also find the lack of ports in a Framework frustrating.
|
| My Thinkpad has USB-A USB-A
| USB-A USB-C HDMI Ethernet
| SD Charging
|
| and a Framework has only half of that.
|
| Most of these are used at least once per day.
|
| I'm hoping for third party chassis offerings to solve
| this.
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| > That said, it can do something super cool: Charge from
| either side.
|
| Heh, that does sound nice. But for me it's not a problem,
| because my X230 charges from the rear.
| andrewaylett wrote:
| I feel like folk in this thread haven't used a Macbook
| Pro from the past ten years or so -- which is _fine_ , I
| don't expect everyone to want to use MacOS (I prefer
| Linux) but the hardware is genuinely nice.
|
| On my personal 2019 MBP I have four USB C ports, and can
| charge via any of them. My work M3 MBP only has three,
| but has a full-size HDMI port too (and a magnetic
| charging port I've never used). I carry a cheap USB C
| dongle that works with pretty much anything and gives me
| a couple of USB A ports, HDMI, a USB C with pass-through
| charging, and Ethernet. It's great, and it's DP alt mode
| rather than TB so it works with anything (including
| Android phones with the right hardware).
|
| Apple definitely aren't perfect (although I do actually
| like my touch bar) but when they make hardware that
| works, it really does work well. I wish it were possible
| for other companies to make things as nicely.
| paulddraper wrote:
| This is an insane take.
|
| The number of MacBooks I've seen shipped back to repair
| center for weeks, over a single non functional key, is
| astonishing.
| Aurornis wrote:
| As opposed to taking the part out of a Framework laptop,
| shipping it back to the repair center for weeks, and then
| reinstalling it when it comes back?
|
| Or if time is of the essence, ordering the brand new part
| to skip the repair process and then installing it yourself
| when it arrives later?
|
| Contrast this with the amount of time my coworker spent
| hauling his laptop charger everywhere and obsessively
| topping up his laptop battery while traveling because the
| battery drain during sleep was a problem at that time. This
| added extra wear and tear on the battery, of course, but I
| guess he could replace it himself?
| paulddraper wrote:
| You just order a new key, and install it. And not have
| the downtime. (You can remap key or use an external
| keyboard.)
|
| And yeah, replacing the battery is easy. Not a Framework,
| but I replaced a laptop battery some years ago, was glad
| I had that option, because lithium battery lifetime
| always decreases eventually.
|
| I'm old enough to remember when many phones and some
| laptops had removable batteries. Switch to a spare, and
| boom instantly full, you didn't need to tether it to a
| wall.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| But how common of a problem is this, now that Apple is well
| clear of the butterfly keyboard mess? I haven't had to get
| my MacBooks repaired even once in the past decade and
| change, and that's _despite_ two of the machines I'd used
| during that time being the butterfly /touch bar models!
|
| That being said, yes it'd be better if such a repair were
| quick and easy, but I'm not sure that it's so valuable as
| to justify battery life being around a third what my
| MacBooks get or wrestling a buggy, immature BIOS and all
| the issues that come with that. A laptop that's bad at
| being a laptop isn't worth a whole lot...
| paulddraper wrote:
| You are correct that example has been made very much
| better.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| > I'm not sure that it's so valuable as to justify
| battery life being around a third what my MacBooks get or
| wrestling a buggy, immature BIOS and all the issues that
| come with that.
|
| It is to me, given my 15 odd years of using Windows and
| Linux instead of Mac. I'm not even liking windows much
| these days, but I've never had a situation where I was
| forced to use a Mac.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| That was due to a defective keyboard design that the
| company denied, failed to fix after several revisions, and
| was ultimately sued for.
|
| I was stuck with one of these at work. I've owned or had in
| my custody probably 30 laptops since 1995. It's the only
| one that required keyboard replacement, and ended up
| needing 3.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| Also the fact that hardware is pretty stagnant and upgrades
| aren't that important anymore for most stuff. I bought an
| Acer in 2012 and over the next 5 years I upgraded the RAM
| from 4 gb to 8gb and swapped the hdd for an ssd. Those were
| enormous upgrades! Then I bought a MacBook Pro with 16gb and
| an ssd and didn't need another computer until this year
| (still didn't NEED one but I found a good deal on a 4 year
| old MBP).
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > hardware has usually advanced far enough
|
| That's not what we're experiencing.
|
| Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way
| within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and
| bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen
| innovation either.
|
| The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard,
| which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes
| sense to me.
|
| > port module idea.
|
| That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought
| a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd
| be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never
| ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a
| Framework, not on any other laptop.
|
| I wish I could do that right now. The only reason I haven't
| one of their laptop is their stubborn refusal to ship outside
| a dozen or so countries.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| I'll contest that on the screens. Mini-LED backlighting is
| a substantial step up for contrast, backlights in general
| have gotten brighter, IPS panels have gained notability
| better color gamuts and contrast, and OLED panels are now
| widely available even in budget machines. The screens on
| the M1-M4 MBPs look quite visibly nicer than those MBPs
| used up until 2019.
|
| Those painfully awful 1366x768 TN panels that used to be
| commonplace have finally mostly been ousted, too. As a
| result, chances are that the laptop you buy at nearly any
| price bracket in 2026 has a screen that's moderately to
| dramatically better than was found in laptops in the same
| bracket up until 2020-2022.
|
| The problems with the port modules are that due to their
| dimensions, the number of ports you can have on the laptop
| at once is small and the big voids in the chassis required
| for them to be able to slot in greatly weakens it and makes
| it more prone to flexing.
|
| With an alternative design that uses internal port boards
| (still hooked up via USB-C) with matching exterior side
| plates, you could easily do something like 3x USB-C, 1x
| USB-A on the left and 1x Ethernet, 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A, 1x
| SD/microSD on the right in the same space as would've been
| taken by the modules for half as many ports. This would
| suit most users perfectly out of the box, precluding the
| need for swapping for many, but for those who need one side
| to be full USB-C or multiple NICs or a cell modem or
| something that's still possible.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Point taken, I totally see how brighter screens must be a
| boon for people who actually bring their laptop outdoors.
|
| My personal needs are way smaller so I missed that part
| completely (on contrast IDK, I recently had a Surface Pro
| 8 next to a MBP 4 and it didn't strike me, but I might
| not be sensible enough to that)
|
| > 1366x768
|
| We've had HDPI for a decade now, that's truly awful.
|
| > ports
|
| Agreed, people needing more than 4 ports or caring a lot
| more about size are kinda SOL with the current modular
| setup.
| baq wrote:
| Brighter screens is a boon for anyone using a laptop,
| full stop. If it's too bright, you can turn the
| brightness down, obviously doesn't work this way in the
| opposite direction.
|
| Besides, the point isn't even absolute max brightness,
| but the contrast ratio. OLEDs aren't the brightest
| displays, but their contrast ratio blows pretty much
| everything else out of the water and that's what makes
| you go wow when looking at an oled in a dark room. (At
| least it does for me, still, and I've got an oled tv in
| 2018.)
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Not necessarily just outdoors, but to any well lit
| environment.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Including indoors in rooms with large windows that face
| east, south, or west! This describes a lot of office
| buildings, as well as my bedroom in a circa-2005 cheaply
| built mass development home too. On sunny days, it's
| brightly naturally lit for basically half the day, and
| dim displays can struggle in that environment.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Not to mention cafes, libraries, or other large buildings
| which are many times constructed to let in as much
| sunlight as possible.
| Aurornis wrote:
| I have a 6 year old high end laptop that I keep as a backup
| and I disagree about no progress being made on screens. The
| current screens are very good, especially in high
| brightness environments.
|
| > The only thing that significantly changes is the
| motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it
| independently makes sense to me.
|
| Laptop motherboards aren't like desktop motherboards where
| you can define a big outline and fit standard parts within
| it. The laptop design leverages tight co-design with the
| enclosure for thermal performance. If you're lucky and
| leave enough extra space then you can design next
| generation parts to line up neatly with the thermal
| solution of last gen, then cap it at the limit of whatever
| last gen was designed for. However the optimal solution
| will always be to co-design the chassis, thermal solution,
| and motherboard together.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| > If you're lucky and leave enough extra space then you
| can design next generation parts to line up neatly with
| the thermal solution of last gen, then cap it at the
| limit of whatever last gen was designed for.
|
| The mobile Ryzen 3/5/7/9 processors from the current year
| have a configurable TDP up to the same max (54W) as the
| earliest Ryzen "H" processors from 2017. The first
| generation mobile Core i7 from 2009 had a TDP up to 55W.
| The mobile Pentium 4 from 2003 had a TDP up to 76W (which
| appears to be the high water mark). In any given
| generation there were also lower end models using less
| power across a power range that seems to be fairly
| consistent over time.
|
| Why does the thermal solution need to be redesigned if
| the heat output hasn't materially changed in decades?
| pdimitar wrote:
| > _That 's one of the best idea they have! You might have
| bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to
| realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you
| realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd
| fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop._
|
| With all due respect -- meh.
|
| I have a fairly old-ish laptop that I am not bothered to
| upgrade because a Ryzen 5500U is super capable to this day
| (and I don't do local LLMs) and it has a 10Gbps USB Type-C
| port, an HDMI port, and a USB 3.0 Type-A port. And an SD
| card reader.
|
| I bought a hub. I put the laptop on a stand and plug its
| Type-C 10Gbps slot in the hub. Job done.
|
| All this clamoring about being able to replace ports surely
| resonates with many people but to this day I don't view it
| as a true advantage. If you have to carry your laptop to a
| dedicated office, a stand and a hub are table stakes
| anyway. And that's not even touching a proper big display,
| keyboard and a mouse.
|
| And furthermore, if making the ports flexible leads to too
| many design compromises then to me that means that I am
| making a bad deal.
|
| I am periodically inspecting Framework laptops and I still
| find them lacking. Their appeal to tinkerers has IMO peaked
| and they should pivot to another pitch or they might not
| survive. Though I really, really hope they do. We need the
| competition.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > keyboard and a mouse
|
| That's the part that's hitting me the most.
|
| I have two dongles for the wireless connectivity of both,
| and the choice is between sticking both in a dock and
| bring the same huge dock every single place I go, or move
| them from dock to dock as needed.
|
| Having two USB-A would mean I stick them on the machine
| itself and never think about it anymore. Then if they
| could completely disappear inside the port extensions it
| would be a dream.
|
| TBH I wouldn't be using the Framework as my primary work
| laptop either way, use cases are very limited and I
| already have the power and modularity needed with the
| Z13, but as a personal laptop for way wider use cases it
| ticks all the right boxes. If only it shipped outside of
| US and EU.
| pdimitar wrote:
| I understand. I have a mini hub, something like 10x4x1
| cm. Works fine for me and it even also has Ethernet.
|
| As mentioned, I'm sure Ftamework has valid usages. To me
| they command a much higher price premium than I'm
| comfortable with paying for those valid usages however.
|
| I do love and want a libre booting stack. To me _that_ is
| the really good stuff. But they need to chill on prices.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| I'd be better off for my work laptop with an even smaller
| cube that was built expecting a hub to be plugged in. No
| monitor, keyboard or mouse. I don't think the keyboard
| and monitor on it have ever been used outside of
| diagnosing why the hub isn't working.
| dagmx wrote:
| The modules are just inset usb-c dongles.
|
| Handy that you can have them fully encased but there's
| nothing really limiting any other laptop on this front. You
| just use an external dongle and have the same flexibility.
|
| Maybe some people really want the enclosed module so they
| have fewer things to carry, but that's a pretty small
| advantage that I'm not sure many people will value.
|
| I could get something like this (
| https://satechi.net/products/undefined/products/pro-hub-
| slim ) for my MacBook Air and come out ahead on weight and
| size.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| In wish I could have lived for a month or two with the
| Framework system to get a better feeling of it.
|
| I'm usually either docked at my primary desk and only
| need a single USB-C, or moving from place to place and
| need 2 USB-A and a full size SD reader. I imagine the
| nice part with the insets is they're flushed so they'less
| surface to hit when moving the machine around.
|
| I'd actually love to make my own insets that bakes the
| wireless dongles in them, that sounds doable.
| dagmx wrote:
| If you have a 3D printer you can print enclosures
| https://www.printables.com/model/139879-framework-laptop-
| exp...
| brewtide wrote:
| https://github.com/LeoDJ/FW-EC-
| DongleHiderPlus?tab=readme-ov...
|
| I've yet to build one, but this project looks very
| interesting in that regard.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >but there's nothing really limiting any other laptop on
| this front. You just use an external dongle and have the
| same flexibility.
|
| Yeah, but thars another part to lose. I have tons of
| dongles and expansion bays, and have lost half a ton of
| them to the tides of school, work, travel, and
| carelessness. Most lost, some break because it's a huge
| portrusion out of your core machine. A few borrowed and
| never returned. One of them stuck at an office I got laid
| off from but never returned to post pandemic (but the
| severance hush money was worth more than me raising a
| fuss as opposed to replacing the $30 bay).
|
| I don't need it to literally be plug and play, but I
| appreciate a more modular setup that is flush and stuck
| to the machine.
|
| PS. Your link is 404.
| dagmx wrote:
| Ah weird the link didn't work. It looks like their site
| overrides the url that is set for link sharing.
|
| This one should work, copied it from the address bar
| instead.
|
| https://satechi.net/products/pro-hub-
| slim?variant=4019950983...
| swiftcoder wrote:
| > You just use an external dongle and have the same
| flexibility
|
| And with thunderbolt, you get to have one dongle-sized
| dock, that connects with one cable, and gives you the
| full gamut of ports. I really love being able to connect
| 1 cable when I get to my desk, and have multiple
| monitors, all peripherals, plus power cable instantly.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Screens are dramatically better than a few years ago and
| have been advancing if you care about and shop for the
| feature. Trackpads are slowly sucking less.
|
| Most people only see this in MacBook Pros, but the other
| manufacturers have excellent screens that are often hidden
| behind customization options and complex models/branding.
|
| I have a framework and love it, but it's a computer made
| for a specific purpose that doesn't align with most people.
| That's ok - Dell makes like 500 different let laptops and
| Framework has a totally different proposition.
| Joeri wrote:
| I have to disagree on trackpads sucking less. This year I
| walked into a big box electronics store and tried the
| screen, keyboard and trackpad on every laptop they had on
| display.
|
| Trackpads were universally abysmal, with the sole
| exception of the macbooks. They all had the frustrating
| diveboard design, every single one at every price point
| from every manufacturer. I'm sure you can buy laptops
| with decent trackpads online, but they had none in the
| store, macbooks excepted.
|
| Keyboards were all over the place, but I notice that even
| some premium models are now carrying generic low end
| keyboard parts with weak travel, lack of key separation,
| num lock mashed into the backspace, and awkward arrow key
| layout. If anything I think keyboards are getting worse.
|
| Screens are the one place where I'll say things have
| improved noticeably, especially colors and black levels,
| although getting over 200 ppi and 500 nits is still a
| rare treat, and that is my bar for a compromiseless
| display.
| akvadrako wrote:
| 500 nits is not really good enough for laptop that you
| might use outside.
|
| Luckily they are still improving and we now have Tandem
| OLED with about double that.
| jdujfkhllhl wrote:
| Should a laptop be optimized for indoor or outdoor use?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > walked into a big box electronics store
|
| You're comparing Apple to unnamed computers brands you
| touched at a random place, I'm not sure what to make of
| it.
|
| For instance how does the Macbook Air compare to the
| current 13" Surface Laptop ? Is that what you call
| diveboard design and awkward arrow key layout ?
| swiftcoder wrote:
| > Trackpads are slowly sucking less
|
| This is an oddity of the PC laptop market I have never
| understood - Mac trackpads from a decade ago are still
| better than a top-of-the-line PC trackpad from the
| current year.
|
| The only thing Apple has done in that decade is make
| their trackpads slightly bigger (and made the click
| haptic rather than physical), so it feels like the PC
| folks should have caught up by now...
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Part of it is software (drivers), and that's something
| that hardware vendors have traditionally been poor at
| writing. The bar for a driver is "it technically works
| and doesn't bluescreen" rather than "it works well". It's
| just more evident in this case because the continuous-
| input nature of a trackpad makes the poor functionality
| much more apparent.
|
| The other is that I don't think most laptop vendors spend
| nearly as much on their trackpads. MacBook trackpads have
| for a long time shared their touch sensitivity hardware
| with iPhones, which makes them extremely responsive and
| precise, and this is paired with a high end haptic motor
| to produce click sensations. Finally, their surface is
| oleophobic glass which reduces friction. This all
| combines to produce a great experience, but I'm positive
| that they cost notably more than the typical plastic
| diving board fare, and most laptop manufacturers are
| squeezing out margin with cheaper parts wherever they
| can.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Apple pours all they have into making their trackpad the
| best it can be, including working from the OS to the UX
| to the SDKs.
|
| It's sailant when using the Magic Trackpad on Windows:
| the acceleration curves don't match, the keyboard
| combinations are less natural, the gestures clunkier and
| the overall advantage of the trackpad is I think lesser.
| Mouses are a better fit on windows in every respects
| IMHO.
| goku12 wrote:
| > The crux of the matter is that even if one values
| upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need
| for practically anybody.
|
| Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you
| do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is
| one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value
| when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we
| used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop
| PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the
| whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of
| the feature is bizarrely shortsighted.
|
| > The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well
| rounded and competent across the board AND
| repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating
| it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway.
|
| I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project
| it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough
| investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict
| the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without
| pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal
| designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is
| the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also
| repeat that falsehood.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you
| project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was
| enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs
| inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in
| without pushing back. These companies choose and spread
| suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then
| insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd
| that consumers also repeat that falsehood.
|
| Talk is cheap. Reality is a better indicator of what is and
| isn't feasible, and it's not like there haven't been many
| attempts towards that ideal, but for whatever reason,
| Apple's model is the desirable one, for most.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I've seen it from Netflix, Steam, and several others.
| People simply love having all their eggs in one basket,
| and will stubbornly support it long past the state it
| starts to exploit them. They support security over
| freedom every time, consistently.
|
| It's a bit crude, but it's also why I'm not surprised AI
| is catching on so quickly. People will happily outsource
| their ability to "think" if the product is convincing
| enough to them. We already spent the last decade or 2
| trying to maximize the dopamine hits from social media.
| Now there's a tech that can (pretend to) understand your
| individualized needs? Ready to answer to your Beck and
| call and never makes you feel bad?
|
| Not as cool as thr VR pod dystopia, but I guess I
| overestimated how much stimulation humanity needed to
| reject itself.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| > People simply love having all their eggs in one basket
|
| It's more accurate to say that people don't like having
| twelve different interfaces that all do the same thing.
|
| The proper way to do this is, of course, to have a single
| interface (i.e. a user agent) that interfaces with
| multiple services using a standard protocol. But every
| proprietary service wants you to use _their_ app, and
| that 's the thing people hate.
|
| But the services are being dumb, because everyone except
| for the largest incumbent is better off to give the
| people what they want. The one that wins is the one with
| the largest network effect, which means you're either the
| biggest already or you're better off to implement a
| standard along with everyone else who isn't the biggest
| so that _in combination_ you have the biggest network,
| since otherwise you won 't and then you lose.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Yeah, thars a more generous way to put it. People are
| fine with the illusion of one basket. Thars pretty much
| how any large website works.
|
| The ideal would be for users to choose their front end
| and have backends hook into it via protocols. Aka RSS
| feeds or Email (to some extent). But the allure of being
| vertically integrated is too great, and users will rarely
| question it.
|
| >But the services are being dumb, because everyone except
| for the largest incumbent is better off to give the
| people what they want.
|
| Yup, agreed. At this point, it's really an issue
| regulation can fix. Before it's too late.
| goku12 wrote:
| Even more unimaginative dismissals are not what I wish to
| debate. I have already explained why this argument is
| disingenuous at best. Apple's model isn't the best. It
| just appears so because these companies never put
| significant effort into better alternatives and the
| consumers never demanded it. I keep trying to point this
| out - this is a repeated misdirection tactic employed by
| these companies and their fans.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by
| progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to
| three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and
| buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature
| is bizarrely shortsighted.
|
| The main things I keep long term are the drives and power
| supply, and those can be kept on most laptops too.
|
| In the medium term I get a lot of use out of separately
| upgrading CPU and GPU, but most frameworks can't do that.
| The 16 gets half a point in that category because the
| options are still very limited.
|
| A Framework lets me keep the same screen which is cool. And
| it lets me keep the same chassis which is not as beneficial
| if it's not a particularly good chassis.
|
| If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would
| save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole,
| further if I'm less generous.
|
| I hope they reach a scale where they can price things
| better, and I'm willing to pay some extra for what they do,
| but not as much as they currently charge. Looking at
| Framework's site I can get the same specs as the author for
| $1800. Lenovo offers a model with a worse screen but
| otherwise the same specs for $600. Gigabyte has a fully
| matching model plus bonus GPU for $1150, and for half of
| November it was on sale for $1000. And if you _want_ an RTX
| 5070 then Framework is $2500 and Gigabyte is $1350.
| goku12 wrote:
| I think a major clarification is in order here. I'm not
| talking about just the framework here. If anything, the
| problems with framework is the direct result of the
| absolutely stupid industry-wide product design culture
| and market tastes. You can see all the major open-ish
| hardware designers grappling with similar issues -
| pinephone, System76, Librem... I will explain later why
| it is so. But here is the point - we need a major shift
| in both the product design culture and the (non-existent)
| consumer culture.
|
| Back in the days of modular desktop PCs (which is still
| alive, but barely holding on and slowly fading away)
| about a couple of decades ago, there would have been
| immediate and sharp backlash if any hardware manufacturer
| pulled the tricks that they do today - soldered-on RAM
| modules, thermoplastic glue instead of screws, riveted
| keyboards, irreplaceable ICs that are paired using
| crypto, permanently locked firmware, etc. That would have
| shook their sales enough for them to care. Right now,
| these 'features' lead to short-life hardware (because any
| broken parts mean everything has to be thrown out),
| landfills full of e-waste, frequent new purchases, etc.
| It does nothing good for anyone or the ecosystem, except
| filling the pockets of trillion dollar MNCs.
|
| The advantage of such consumer pressure is that you'd
| have a vibrant spare parts market with much more choices.
| Many people here are complaining about how poor the spare
| parts market is. Had the consumer choice been more on the
| side of modularity and reusability, that problem wouldn't
| have even arisen. It wouldn't be just framework who
| manufactures such things. In fact, you wouldn't even be
| able to decide the brand name of the laptop as a whole.
| Another point is that you're still thinking about laptops
| as a unit, instead of as a collection of parts. And that
| would be the case if the industry spent more resources
| and effort into it. It doesn't have to be bulky as you
| imagine either. Hardware interfaces, housing and
| fasteners would have evolved to a more compact, universal
| and standard form, much like how a dozen different ports
| were replaced by USB. Right now, you're thinking about
| how you can transplant parts from your old laptop to the
| new one. Instead, you could swap parts of a laptop one at
| a time. Currently, the CPU and GPU cannot be swapped like
| in a desktop PC. You have to make do with replacing the
| whole motherboard now. But has anybody demanded
| replaceable CPUs and GPUs for these? Why are those
| precluded?
|
| Now about why framework, System76, Librem, Pinephone, etc
| have problems making such devices. The choices they get
| is abysmally small. The OEMs and component manufacturers
| (mostly from China) have created this supply-chain system
| where they involve in huge-scale exclusive contracts.
| It's simply too hard to get a fully compatible chipset
| without signing an NDA that effectively ruins your
| chances at making open or modular hardware. Those
| companies are doing an impressive job at making these
| hardware with what they have.
|
| You may want to dismiss me as too idealistic and dreaming
| about what could be, instead of dealing with what it is
| now. But let me point out why we never catch a break. The
| tech community takes an obstinate and imprudent 'all or
| nothing' approach to everything. 'Framework is not good
| because it's too costly, modules are not good enough, GPU
| cannot be replaced, yada, yada'. Nobody is willing to
| settle for anything less than perfect. But you need to
| realize that you are not in the bargaining position here
| - you don't hold the cards. Your choices are dictated by
| someone else who is more resourceful and patient in
| making short-term compromises and playing the long game
| of shaping the market and making insane profits at the
| end. The only way to get your way is for everyone to
| unite and show even more resolve and patience in
| demanding what you want. That means putting up with some
| inconveniences for now. But everyone will be rewarded at
| the end with the perfection you demand.
| wqaatwt wrote:
| > soldered-on RAM modules
|
| That can have significant performance advantages, though.
| Which might be hard to overcome due to physics
| swiftcoder wrote:
| Worth noting that even Framework's own desktop has
| soldered-on RAM, for exactly this reason
| jdujfkhllhl wrote:
| And that was even after constructive cooperation with
| amd. Now think about the more common, hostile,
| interaction many suppliers provide.
| nachopa wrote:
| >about a couple of decades ago, there would have been
| immediate and sharp backlash if any hardware manufacturer
| pulled the tricks that they do today - soldered-on RAM
| modules, thermoplastic glue instead of screws, riveted
| keyboards, irreplaceable ICs...
|
| That's when this trend started, with Apple's Macbook Pro
| leading the way, winding up one of the best-selling
| consumer laptop brands by targeting incoming college
| freshmen and their grandparents, focusing on cosmetic
| appeal over dollar cost for performance.
|
| Most buyers don't even know what CPU model their laptop
| contains, let alone understand the difference between
| faster or slower processors from different generations.
| It will always be a tiny segment of the market that
| appreciates the value of Framework's features.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Apple did not start anything.
|
| PCs are the odd ones, all other 8 and 16 bit home
| computers were vertically integrated, most expansions
| were done via external buses connected into one of the
| sides, usually the back or right side.
|
| With the race for thin margins at any cost, if anything
| thanks to Apple, is that OEMs realised going back to
| Spectrum, C64, Amiga, Atari ST kind of hardware designs
| payed off in their bank accounts.
| nachopa wrote:
| My point was that soldered RAM and lack of upgradeable
| components didn't inspire much of a backlash back then.
| It led to Apple dominating the higher end of the consumer
| laptop market.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Which was already the way on 8 and 16 bit home computers,
| for the most part if you wanted an upgrade you would buy
| the newer model.
|
| The exception being PC clones.
| jorvi wrote:
| I always enjoy how Thinkpad bros have been badmouthing
| MacBooks for two decades, when those have had the best
| battery life, screen, hinge, case, bluetooth, fan noise
| and other amenities during all of that time. They were
| the first to have WiFi.
|
| Apple figured out pretty soon that a laptop doesn't need
| to be a dragster or M1 Abrams, it needs to be a Volvo.
| brookst wrote:
| Lamenting market taste and the resulting mass market
| designs is basically yelling at clouds.
|
| Simple fact is that most people have different priorities
| than the "make everything upgradable" crowd would like.
| That's not going to change. Why would 90% of the market
| "unite" with 10% who want a totally different set of
| tradeoffs?
|
| It's like asking that all car buyers unite and demand
| manual transmissions in every car. I love manual cars,
| but I recognize most people do not want that for most of
| their driving. So why would the majority demand this
| feature that they don't actually want, and which would
| not be a better experience for most?
| pkphilip wrote:
| > If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework
| would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in
| the hole, further if I'm less generous.
|
| I think this statement is heavily underestimating the
| value of a repairable /user serviceable computer.
|
| The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is
| the same as the value proposition for open source for
| software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to
| make the changes you want to make IF you want to make
| them.
|
| But as it is with open source software, most users are
| never going to be directly editing the code for postgres,
| Linux, or any of the other 1000s of open source software
| that they use on a daily basis - but IF they choose to do
| so, they can.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is
| the same as the value proposition for open source for
| software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to
| make the changes you want to make IF you want to make
| them.
|
| This is true to an extent, but I think that's greatly
| overselling it when phrased that way.
|
| 90% of my customization is either during the initial
| purchase, or it's a RAM/drive upgrade, and I don't need
| Framework for that. It's only a small portion of
| customization I lose out on. And in some ways I actually
| have more ability to customize outside of Framework, for
| example they only offer two GPU models.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| I don't think this was understood charitably. The point of
| the parent is that _in practice_ , when it comes time to
| update one part, you'll also want to update all or most of
| the others. So, _in practice_ , you will not see any of
| these savings.
|
| The _potential_ savings may be significant, but for most
| people, it may be the case that the _actual_ savings are
| unlikely. A modular, upgradable laptop may be a niche
| product for people who want to upgrade each part _more_
| frequently, not less.
| swiftcoder wrote:
| > You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by
| progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to
| three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and
| buying a new one each time
|
| Do you actually realise any savings doing that? Pretty sure
| I never have.
|
| Typically by the time I get around to upgrading, they've
| changed both the CPU socket and the RAM, so I need a whole
| new motherboard. And I certainly don't trust a 5-year-old
| PSU to run a higher-watt load at that point. So most of the
| time all I'm reusing is the case and maybe a couple of
| auxiliary SSDs (which aren't a major part of the cost)...
| bee_rider wrote:
| Isn't "reuse the PSU" kind of a tempting trap? I though it
| was--a cheap part that can take down the rest of your
| expensive system. I though the advice was to get a new one
| with each build...
| zamadatix wrote:
| A quality PSU can often last 10 years and multiple
| builds. Quality in this case just means "has things like
| over voltage protection, proper wiring included, decent
| caps, and decent voltage regulation" not "was really
| expensive". E.g. that $140 85 W Seasonic Focus tier is
| quality in this regard, the $80 no-name 850 W PSU is what
| people warn about, and the $400 Seasonic Prime titanium
| rated PSU is mostly for those scrutinizing VRM designs or
| wattage limits on the cables to the GPU for their
| overclock goals.
|
| It's common to upgrade your PSU anyways though as it
| seems like parts wattages only go up over the years
| (particularly for the +12v rails) or one may want to
| cycle out the old system completely for reuse/resale.
| Generic advice (since most people buy cheapo no name PSUs
| and upgrade rarely) might be to say to replace just to be
| on the good side of every situation... but if you're one
| that knows you got a quality PSU or likes to upgrade your
| build every other CPU generation, then swapping out the
| PSU every time is likely a waste.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| "The crux of the matter is that even if one values
| upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need
| for practically anybody."
|
| That is entirely irrelevant.
|
| The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value
| that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you
| don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter).
|
| If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy
| the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was
| going to be?
|
| That is what's annoying to witness.
|
| I can do all that same math about price and features, yet why
| don't I have any buyers remourse? Do I not know about Dell
| and Lenovo and Apple? If the value proposition is innately
| bad, then why aren't I complaining too? Have I been
| hypnotized into acting against my own priorities and
| intentions?
|
| The problem is not with the product or it's price.
|
| * not literally you, sorry for how that sounds
| warkdarrior wrote:
| > If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin,
| buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it
| was going to be?
|
| Because the tin didn't say "repairable and upgradable and
| poor battery life and shaky case". It only mentioned the
| benefits but not the drawbacks.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| To be fair, I've had plenty a non-repairable laptop with
| poor battery life and shaky case. I don't know their
| excuee.
| jdujfkhllhl wrote:
| If all the laptop components break at the same time,
| there's no need for repairability. Then it's just a
| somewhat disposable computer by design. For a car
| analogy, this is how many americans could afford their
| first car.
|
| The truly bad designs are when one broken component is
| preventing repairability. Hello apple!
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| As others have pointed out, a lot of us would very much
| like to buy a Framework laptop but as it is we can't make
| it make sense. We'll be customers if Framework can figure
| out how to patch up their shortcomings, and by expressing
| that sentiment hopefully they're encouraged to try to do
| that.
|
| We value reparability and upgradability and are willing to
| pay for it _all else being roughly equal_.
|
| It's like for the same price, being given a choice between
| a hybrid car that's quiet on the road and gets 45 MPG fuel
| economy with great torque and responsiveness but needs to
| be taken to the dealer to service and a car that's easy to
| self service but has an annoying rattle at highway speeds,
| gets 15 MPG, and has a 4-speed automatic transmission. Both
| technically do the job, but you'd be hard pressed to find
| people who'd choose the latter over the former.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >Reliable machines
|
| Maybe one day I'll have that. Meanwhile,
|
| - my first hp laptop had to be sent in twice in 2 years. Then
| by year 3 I just gave up the ghost (having side income
| helped)
|
| - 2nd Asus laptop was used and a decent discount, so I didn't
| complain too much. But it hit screen issues in 2 years.
|
| - then I got a razer blade. Honestly not bad (just really
| expensive), I simply had the lack of hindsight to realize 3
| years later that it wouldn't be compatible with Windows 11.
| For what reason I will never know. Not too long after the
| battery simply refused to hold charge as well. I _could_ have
| spent to repair that, but I was already looking at an upgrade
| funded by my work perks anyway.
|
| My current Asus has been relatively problem free, but there
| were still minor things I opened it up for. Typical ram and
| storage upgrades at first. Spotty wifi chip early on, but I
| upgraded it to an Intel one for AC support a few months in
| regardless. Also hate how I discovered that the computer has
| vents on the front and will freak out if you close the
| display for secondary monitors no matter how well you cool
| the rear vents, but I guess that one's on me for not more
| carefully considering.
|
| So yeah, I'd rather just have something repairable.
| closewith wrote:
| On the other hand, we hand down our MacBooks in the family
| and our old 2018 MacBook Airs are still in daily use
| without any reliability issues AFAIK. Zero user
| repairability.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| I had an old MacBook Air that I ran until it eventually
| lost battery function and new software just wouldn't run
| well on such old hardware, and I stopped getting updates
| for the OS which meant apps slowly became incompatible.
|
| Loved that machine. 10+ years of use from the best laptop
| I ever had.
|
| I would've bought a new one when I eventually gave up on
| it, but the Apple of 2025 is worlds apart from the Apple
| of 2012.
|
| Experiments with Touch Bars and software escape keys,
| butterfly keyboards that frankly just suck, thin glass
| screens that crack, USB-C ports requiring dongles
| everywhere...
|
| I didn't buy a new MacBook and migrated away from Apple
| instead.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| You're describing the Apple of 2018.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Ah sorry, I must be thinking of the Apple of 2025 that
| still hasn't added USB-A to their laptops (even though my
| Framework has 2) and expects me to carry a dongle
| everywhere, because after all, it's my fault for not
| completely rearranging my world to do what Apple wants.
|
| Or I must be thinking about the Apple of 2025 that rolled
| out Liquid Glass, an OS so disastrously bad I have to
| toggle accessibility settings just to make it usable.
|
| I'm pretty comfortable saying modern Apple has had a sad
| and shitty fall from its peak.
| jdujfkhllhl wrote:
| China and EU have mandated usb-c for all rechargeable
| devices, for many years. Usb-a is legacy, together with
| vga, parallel printer ports and other old and bulky
| connectors, such connectors should require adapters. This
| is a good thing.
|
| That's why apple laptops are using usb-c.
| dngray wrote:
| The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is
| that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system
| board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's
| going to really buy it?
|
| I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there
| is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved
| on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the
| reasons I did not buy a framework (was very close to it) is
| the screen. I value having a decent screen attached to my
| laptop. I think some of these newer laptops with Tandem OLEDs
| will be a real improvement over what was out there
| previously.
|
| I thought about the port configuration as well, and that's
| all cool you can have 6 ports that can be anything you like,
| but really they are just two USB controllers controlling all
| that. One on either side. What would be my ultimate port
| configuration? Well probably like some USB-C and an audio
| port and a HDMI port. The network adapter sticks out so
| that's going to be super annoying. The newer Lenovo and Dell
| laptops have replaceable USB ports, which means if I wear one
| out I can replace it easily.
|
| What I also realized is you can do some really cool things
| like PCIe passthrough with Thunderbolt that of course you
| don't get on a Framework. Want to have an awesome GPU? Well
| you can use an eGPU or perhaps an flash a firmware to your
| NVMe (you can't do that over USB), but you can over PCIe
| passthrough where the device shows up as /dev/nvme0. I've
| always had problems with disks over USB, sometimes they'll
| drop from the system, and things like eSATAp were always more
| reliable for 3.5" disks, but that's only available on desktop
| with a special bracket.
|
| One of the other reasons I ended up not going for the
| Framework was that it uses Insyde BIOS and they were a bit
| slow on their Logofail firmware updates. Prompt security
| updates are important to me. None of them also have vPro or
| Ryzen Pro models, (so no encrypted RAM)
| https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-
| memory-... if you want to achieve higher HSI 4 levels. https:
| //fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-...
|
| In the end I'm just going to spend a little on a T1g Gen8
| probably. I can upgrade the RAM in that because it's CAMM2.
| It may cost a little more than the framework but on special I
| should be able to get it for a nice price.
|
| If I had less money I'd probably just go for previous gen.
| l72 wrote:
| Drop it into this case to be used as a home server or a set
| top box!
|
| https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
| Xlr8head wrote:
| Are Frameworks even upgradeable enough to enable the same
| kind of upgrading in the typical upgrade window as one would
| get buying a new machine? This means replacing nearly
| everything except the chassis, keyboard, and screen.
| bronson wrote:
| My current 128gb AI 300 started as a 16 GB 12th gen Intel.
| Unrelated, I also upgraded to the higher resolution screen.
|
| For me anyway, the answer is "yes".
| brookst wrote:
| Exactly this. Everyone says they want upgradable (stated
| preference), but when making personal purchasing decisions, a
| "premium experience" is valued more highly (revealed
| preference).
| Klonoar wrote:
| "Upgradable hardware on a laptop" is a loud minority.
|
| I want open hardware. I want to know what's running on my
| machine. I don't really give two shits if the RAM is
| soldered because I will probably upgrade when (if) it
| becomes a problem.
| dangus wrote:
| One of the issues with the 16 is it's just a way worse value
| proposition than the 13.
|
| The 13 is great. I'd even go as far as calling it a good deal,
| cheap even, especially if you DIY and bring your own memory and
| storage.
|
| The 16 just gets badly outclassed by alternatives.
|
| I think the problem is that once you get into that big laptop
| territory people start wanting more specific use cases like
| gaming or other performance metrics. There has to be a reason
| to want a big bulky laptop.
|
| Plus, bigger laptops more frequently come with better
| repeatability.
|
| I also find that there's a lot more PC competition in the
| 15-16" screen sizes. The framework 13" is actually uniquely
| small/light. The Framework 16" is somewhat worse packaging than
| its competitors.
|
| The 16" really needs to have an option for a 5070Ti and 5080.
| orthoxerox wrote:
| If I wanted the innards of my laptop to be upgradable, I would
| want the only part of it that would stay with me for the next
| decade or two (the chassis) to be damn near perfect.
|
| There's a reason why there are enthusiasts making custom
| motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row)
| ThinkPads. These things were built like a German executive
| sedan.
| koiueo wrote:
| > enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters
| for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads
|
| This. It baffles me that companies like System76 and
| Framework refuse to borrow from an existing successful
| solution like ThinkPad. I remember asking System76
| representative over the phone about trackpoint; from time to
| time I revisit that one thread on Framework forums about
| trackpoint keyboard... No progress there.
|
| The only explanation I have is that they obviously can't
| copy, but designing something like an old ThinkPad is
| intrinsically hard and costs way too much for a small
| company.
| kube-system wrote:
| I don't know about today but once upon a time those
| trackpoints were encumbered by patent issues.
| OJFord wrote:
| It did annoy me slightly that they released higher quality
| more rigid upper parts of the chassis ('top cover', behind
| the screen) shortly after my launch order of the 13.
|
| Sure I can upgrade, for PS129, but my first upgrade as a
| result probably may as well be a whole new laptop: top cover,
| motherboard+CPU, RAM (necessitated by CPU advances), as well
| as perhaps screen (higher resolution and matte finish now
| available).
|
| But I couldn't really expect that for free (I did get free
| stiffer hinges to resolve a problem) and I do want it to get
| better...
| theodric wrote:
| There are weirdos out there. I am looking for a bulkier and
| more hackable laptop! I bought a ThinkPad P14s Gen5 AMD which
| has turned out to be a flimsy, plastic (not magnesium like the
| Intel units), disappointing piece of shit with frequent (but
| known) GPU crash issues, which I bought because I had a certain
| moment when I needed a computer and the Framework 16 was still
| on last-gen hardware, which felt silly to buy so close to an
| inevitable upgrade. I wish I had, though. Not much difference
| between an 8840HS and a 7840HS, but a huge difference between
| even a fairly upgradable ThinkPad like the P14s and a
| Framework.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > but I can't help but be frustrated by the constant lack of
| understanding of the core value proposition of framework both
| in this post and in many comments here on hn.
|
| On the contrary, I think a lot of people completely understand
| the value proposition. It's just that once you evaluate it
| against all of the tradeoffs and other priorities, it reveals
| that upgradeability is not as valuable as the other priorities.
| Most consumers aren't single-issue voters who purchases
| hardware based on a single axis of features.
|
| With Framework laptops specifically I've started to feel like
| "but it's upgradable!" is becoming a tired rebuttal to any
| discussion of the tradeoffs you take one when you buy one of
| these machines.
|
| In theory I enjoy an upgradeable machine, too. But in practice
| I'm not willing to give up much _now_ in exchange for the
| possibility of maybe upgrading part of it later.
|
| This is a classic example of revealed preference in product
| design. When you ask people in a vacuum if they want features
| like upgradeability, swappable batteries, or tiny phones that
| fit in your pocket the answer is always "Yes, obviously!" Then
| when the product comes to market and people have to vote with
| their wallets they survey the options and pick the laptop
| that's light and highly integrated, the phone with a built-in
| battery that's compact and sturdy, and the phone with a screen
| big enough to not feel cramped. This leaves a vocal minority
| trying to tell everyone else that they're making the wrong
| choice or they have their priorities wrong, but the simpler
| answer is that these products are best reserved for the
| minority of people who prize singular design goals like
| upgradeability options to such an extreme that they're willing
| to compromise or ignore everything else.
| kopirgan wrote:
| Sorry I didn't buy framework laptop but did find their prices
| high. Regarding assigning premium to repairability, wonder
| what's really premium about that? I mean in terms of materials
| used. Ignoring premiums paid for branding, I would think it's
| fair to charge premium if offering such feature comes with
| higher cost.
| mistercheph wrote:
| It depends on what "premium"/"luxury" mean to you. For some,
| red leather that has been masterfully tanned and stitched
| lining the interior of their car is premium. For others, the
| ability to transport you hundreds of thousands of miles in
| any terrain and any conditions with equipment failures that
| are rare and easy to fix is "premium". Being swaddled in high
| cost materials while stuck on the side of the road in a
| snowstorm isn't exactly a "premium" experience.
|
| Likewise, for some, there is nothing premium about a product
| that 1) becomes a paperweight when a single component fails
| or is no longer sufficient to satisfy the user's changing
| desires. 2) Hasn't had engineering time and BOM on high-cost
| materials devoted to making the device easy-to-repair, or has
| had engineering resources spent making the device hostile to
| repair.
|
| Framework doesn't just give you permission to repair and
| modify their product, they have engineered and designed a
| product that is easy and intuitive to repair and modify, and
| made out of materials that are designed and selected to
| endure being touched and manipulated, one great example that
| probably comes to mind for many FW13 owners that have opened
| the device is the touchpad cable finger loop in the FW13.
|
| As any technician or DIY enthusiast might tell you, the
| materials e.g. Apple uses that you interact with during
| disassembly aren't exactly robustly made, and there is no
| sign that care or good taste was used when designing the
| disassembly procedures. But again, it depends on what you
| want, for some fragility enhances their experience of an
| object as premium and they have no interesting in
| upgrading/repairing their own device so the quality of that
| experience is irrelevant.
| browningstreet wrote:
| > the constant lack of understanding of the core value
| proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments
| here on hn
|
| That value proposition isn't good enough for the machine you
| have to live with day after day. I think a lot of people get
| the value proposition, but Framework just isn't a good enough
| machine. Even if it might be an interesting platform.
|
| And, the world still needs better Linux laptops. The value
| proposition in that demand apparently isn't resulting in them.
| mhluongo wrote:
| Happy Framework 13 user here to say this.
|
| I recently realized the 32Gb I had originally spec'd isn't
| enough for work lately. Easy fix, I just ordered more RAM.
|
| Pretty straightforward value prop here. If that's not why you
| want, buy a different device.
| PKop wrote:
| You can do this on virtually every non-soldered laptop why is
| this presented as some unique feature?
| filleduchaos wrote:
| I'm starting to realise that many of Framework's strongest
| soldiers have probably never touched a laptop other than a
| MacBook or similar in decades. The ability to upgrade the
| motherboard is niche yet genuinely cool, but instead I keep
| seeing breathless announcements of RAM and SSD upgrades as
| if no-one has ever heard of those before.
| rjdj377dhabsn wrote:
| The idea of upgrading a laptop may sound great at first, but I
| don't think most people really want that.
|
| After 2-3 years, my laptop is pretty beat up from carrying it
| around in a bag daily. I usually buy premium laptops, but still
| the hinges get loose, the corners bent, scratches everywhere,
| ports loose. Usually superficial issues like that make me buy a
| replacement before I really need upgraded chips.
| copirate wrote:
| With a Framework laptop you could fix these superficial
| issues while keeping the chips (and the superficial parts
| that don't need replacement).
| diddid wrote:
| I agree, if they had a framework it would have been trivial to
| swap to a new keyboard.
|
| Also I get annoyed where they say they don't like it but don't
| yet have an alternative.
| notepad0x90 wrote:
| Your comment is sensible, so long as repair parts aren't duds
| all the time, and repairs don't cost you the same as a
| purchase.
|
| For most laptops, including macs, replacing things like
| batteries and screens is not what makes them irreparable, but
| it is things like the cpu, discrete gpu, etc.. I applaud
| framework on what they're doing, but it isn't there yet. If
| anything on the mothrerboard breaks, you're looking at a hefty
| repair bill to replace it. If they keep a decent stock of
| original,tested and quality parts long-term (10+ years) that
| would be one thing, but if "repair" means upgrading to the
| latest stuff, then it is just saving you on a replacement.
|
| Ideally, I would purchase replacement components at the time of
| purchase, so if I have a loose $300 after the initial purchase,
| I might spend it on a spare ram, cpu, or gpu. Now, with that
| money, I can only buy cosmetic/casing parts, battery,
| connectors and such. Again, I appreciate their direction, and
| if we're spending to support them alone, that's great. But they
| have been around for a while, and some constructive criticism
| regarding value might be good.
| safety1st wrote:
| I want Framework to succeed, but the author's objection isn't
| unreasonable:
|
| > For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the
| Framework 16 feels more like a EUR1200-EUR1500 laptop at
| best... two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just
| absurd
|
| For most people the long-term total cost of ownership is going
| to be a major factor when they consider a more repairable
| laptop. Sure, generating less e-waste is nice, but saving money
| is probably the main point. What the author is asserting here
| is that to get the repairable laptop you need to spend 50% more
| for the same specs! As well as accept that the form factor is
| bulkier etc. At a 50% premium you do have to question whether
| you're going to save a meaningful amount of money in the long
| run.
|
| For me I probably would - I find uses for machines that are a
| decade old and the repurposability of Framework components is
| pretty interesting. But interest in this level of reusability
| is a pretty niche market.
|
| I think the Framework 16 is too expensive. They can access a
| niche market at these price points but to get bigger they will
| need to find a way to deal with the cost issue. PC World's
| review of the Framework 13 this year was: "A steep price for a
| compelling upgrade."
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >But interest in this level of reusability is a pretty niche
| market.
|
| We're getting to a point where some people don't even have a
| laoptop in their household. I think "serving a niche",
| especially one willing to pay 1000+ for tech, isn't a bad
| thing here. The tech required for browsing internet and
| streaming videos doesn't need to spend more than $500, or
| even get a windows/mac.Chromebooks will happily cut into that
| entry level market.
|
| This is all before mentioning how memory prices will only
| make the problem worse for all consumer electronics.
| closewith wrote:
| Maybe the feeling of saving money, but any TCO calculation
| isn't going to land on the side of upgradability or
| repairability.
| pkphilip wrote:
| If you want user serviceable equipment - example: phones,
| computers, cars, bikes, washing machines etc, you will have
| to deal with the issues that come with it - the same as the
| inconveniences that come with user serviceable software AKA
| open source software.
|
| The reason being that a device which has been tested to work
| with only a fixed set of parts will likely have more of the
| issues ironed out in comparison to a device which has to work
| with a much wider range of devices.
|
| You may not get the same form factors because user
| serviceable equipment will tend to be bulkier - for instance,
| you may not be able to get ultra thin laptops, phones etc.
|
| However, these inconveniences are worth it because the
| alternative is that we will find ourselves in a place where
| the equipment becomes more and more adversarial to consumers.
| flowerthoughts wrote:
| I just bought a car, and the same issue exists there. I can buy
| an expensive car that is also expensive to service, or a
| slightly cheaper car that is cheap to service, or a cheap car
| that is cheap to service.
|
| That middle ground is much nicer than realising after the
| honeymoon period that it's costing you an arm to replace the
| control box for the left headlight. But TCO is really difficult
| to find numbers on, especially when you don't exactly know how
| you'll use the device as you buy it.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Yeah, I felt the same way. The upfront cost is larger, but the
| idea is that 2-3 years down the line you can upgrade (or simply
| replace) your GPU or even CPU it won't be another 2000
| investment down the line.
|
| But of course, weight is a personal thing with a laptop (my
| Asus is around 2kg and I never felt like I couldn't carry it
| one handed) and if core things like the screen or speakers
| really sucks, that's a deal breaker no matter what.
| atoav wrote:
| As someone who has done more than one hardware project: most
| people generally have got _no_ idea how pricing comes to be.
|
| Usual points involve:
|
| - not understanding that a manufacturer has to charge more than
| parts cost ("But the parts only cost X, why does the product
| costs 3 times X?")
|
| - not understanding economies of scale ("Why does your product
| [selling a hundred pieces] not cost the same as the product by
| the market leader [selling hundred- _thousand_ pieces]? ")
|
| - not understanding that certain things are _genuinly_ complex
| and thus expensive ( "Why does a mere fusion reactor cost X,
| when I can get a single bicycle dynamo for 5 bucks?")
|
| - comparing apples and oranges ("Why does product A [rugged,
| incredibly tight tolerances, extended temperature range,
| waterproof, 10 years warranty, with support] cost 10 times more
| than product B [broken when you look at it wrong]")
|
| With framework the scale is smaller than the likes of apple,
| also framework had signifikant R&D cost to make it repairable.
| And if a repairable laptop is what you want it is one of the
| only good choices out there.
| mft_ wrote:
| Thank you for this interesting perspective. I've moaned a
| little on HN previously about the relative value of the FW13 -
| IIRC it was roughly 60% more than an equivalently (or in some
| areas, better) specced ASUS.
|
| Taking your position --that repairability is a premium feature
| to pay extra for-- the question then becomes how much more is
| that feature worth? (After all, we're well used to making value
| judgements regarding a better screen, more memory, etc.)
|
| I guess what's missing for me is a more thorough understanding
| of _why_ the FW13 is so much more expensive than the
| competition? I can write off some of the difference down to
| lower production volumes, and some of it down to the direct
| costs of repairability (i.e. extra items that need to be made
| that just wouldn't exist in a non-repairable laptop). But this
| _feels_ a long way away from explaining the ~60% I think I'm
| looking for, when many of the major parts of the laptop (e.g.
| processor, RAM, SSD, screen, hinges, fans) are (or could be?)
| available 'off the shelf' at a similar cost to any other
| manufacturer?
| rsynnott wrote:
| > but I can't help but be frustrated by the constant lack of
| understanding of the core value proposition of framework both
| in this post and in many comments here on hn.
|
| The thing is, it doesn't _really_ excuse many of the issues
| they had. For a 2000 euro laptop, you should not be cheaping
| out on, say, speakers. Acceptable laptop speakers are not
| expensive. And coil whine, while a common problem with
| expensive laptops, is not IMO acceptable at this price point.
| Neither of these issues are even vaguely inherent to it being
| modular.
| rafaelmn wrote:
| What value proposition exactly ? If you're comparing to similar
| build quality laptops you're looking at price for two devices
| vs one with HW upgrades. And you can't even compare it to a
| premium device.
|
| And worst of all you can only upgrade to what they have
| available - you can't get a strix halo inside of that thing -
| this is the only scenario that would make sense for me -
| enthusiast level hardware support.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| I own a Framework 13. It is one of the worst machines I've ever
| owned. I am not misunderstanding the value proposition. For the
| amount of money I paid I expect a machine that sleeps when I
| close the lid, does not run out of battery when sleeping in a
| day and a half, has decent battery life with mixed use (with
| the upgraded battery), has speakers that aren't actual garbage
| (with the upgraded speakers), and sells an expansion storage
| module marketed as capable to run an OS that actually runs an
| OS without randomly turning off because of power draw issues.
|
| To top that all off, at one point (I don't know if he's still
| employed) Framework hired a dedicated Linux community person
| who gaslighted customers with actual issues telling them it was
| their fault.
|
| If this was any other mainstream PC seller, people would
| rightfully dump on them all day long. Instead, we are treated
| to long apologia from people like yourself because of "the
| vision".
| bobbob27 wrote:
| By all accounts the Framework 14 hits the balance well, feeling
| basically like any other premium metal laptop. Maybe based on
| that reputation alone, the author decided to buy the 16.
|
| But the 16 is meant to be a chonky desktop replacement with a
| giant GPU enclosure on the back. Just by virtue of what it is,
| it's _never_ going to feel very nice.
|
| The author's other option to buy being a MacBook tells me they
| neglected to do their research on what they were buying.
|
| What they really wanted was a Framework 14! It basically IS a
| MacBook with replaceable components and full repairability.
| datatrashfire wrote:
| i think the author is pretty clearly making the point the trade
| off is not worth it to him. which is not all that suprising
| given that seems to match the preferences of most people given
| the popularity of apple hardware which has for a very long time
| been on the far end of the irreparable, but smaller, quieter,
| etc, spectrum.
| debo_ wrote:
| Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or
| Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell
| laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a
| powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's
| premium model:
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...
| justarandomname wrote:
| My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran
| XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for
| a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall
| unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I
| side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with
| an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue
| as it used to be.
| debo_ wrote:
| 2005 is a really long time ago.
| justarandomname wrote:
| Yeah, 2 decades!
|
| I was just enjoying a bit of nostalgia for that old clunky
| grey laptop.
| debo_ wrote:
| I regularly installed debian back then, and it would take
| me a week to get things working pretty much every time.
| nkydr0i0 wrote:
| Reminds me of how the MC in Pantheon uses an old clunker
| :)
| kelnos wrote:
| When it comes to WiFi on Linux, 2005 experiences are
| irrelevant to today.
| justarandomname wrote:
| Things have come a long way!
|
| For years after I would only buy Atheros WiFi cards, these
| days its usually Intel ones.
| varispeed wrote:
| Please don't trigger my Dell PTSD. This is garbage tier
| hardware designed to harass employees.
| debo_ wrote:
| Ok
| The_President wrote:
| Nothing says quality like a display option with a picture
| comparable to a cheap portable DVD player from 2007.
| timcobb wrote:
| This is a good call.
|
| I wonder what this means:
|
| > featuring up to 80W of performance
| The_President wrote:
| Probably marketing reading the power adapter
| timcobb wrote:
| Yeah but why is marketing regarding the power adapter in
| the headline?
| okanat wrote:
| If your company demands/keeps buying the shittiest, cheapest
| plastic Dell laptops instead of XPSes or higher end
| Latitudes/Precisions, that's not Dell's fault.
|
| My company uses XPSes and Precisions. They work great.
| dagmx wrote:
| XPS are pretty mediocre build quality in my experience.
| Precisions are better.
| mort96 wrote:
| I've had two Dell XPS laptops (a 13" 2015 model and a 15"
| 2-in-1 2018 model). Both had significant touchpad issues: not
| sure if that's a driver thing or a hardware thing, but both
| would sometimes act as if there was a phantom touch somewhere
| on the trackpad which messed with my actual input. One of them
| had a keyboard where key caps of frequently used keys (super,
| shift, ctrl) would split in two after a ~year of use; this was
| not fixed under warranty, I paid out of pocket after a year of
| ownership, another year later it happened again.
|
| After those two Dell XPS laptops, I got a MacBook Pro 2021 with
| an M1 Pro instead of getting the keyboard fixed again. No
| issues. Linux support isn't great, but at least macOS is a
| relatively competent UNIX so it's fine.
|
| I might consider another non-Mac laptop in the future. But it's
| not gonna be a Dell.
| debo_ wrote:
| I think I may have the same 2015 13" model you are
| describing. Which distro were you running out of curiosity?
| mort96 wrote:
| Mostly Arch Linux at the time, though I've had Elementary
| OS on it as well. I used to run i3 (and eventually Sway) on
| it, which worked well since I could have a keyboard-centric
| workflow and not rely o bc the trackpad.
| debo_ wrote:
| Huh. I wonder if they were both hardware issues. I've run
| arch on my laptop with no issues.
| fluidcruft wrote:
| I have had many Dells that have been great with FreeBSD and
| with Linux. You do have to do your research though.
|
| Frankly, I wouldn't expect any touchscreen to work with
| Linux. That's not a Dell issue though.
| mort96 wrote:
| Interestingly, the touch screen of the 2-in-1 worked really
| well! I often relied on the touch screen to do light web
| browsing when the trackpad was acting up.
| Fluorescence wrote:
| The XPS I bought in 2018 has a Wacom digitiser for
| touch/pen and I believe those are very well supported.
|
| A clean install of Ubuntu and the touchscreen and all pen
| features worked perfectly and never had a hiccup since.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I did briefly look into the XPS series but it seems this series
| isn't really a thing anymore? I also found a lot of comments
| describing recurring issues with the trackpad (or was it the
| keyboard? I can't remember). Basically it seemed like too much
| of a gamble.
| debo_ wrote:
| I'm not a massive fan of the hardware or anything, but most
| Dell laptops (including this premium one I linked) are tested
| to work with Ubuntu. If you're ok to use an Ubuntu-derivative
| as your distro, you should almost always have that as an
| option. Much like the Framework, it should be easily
| returnable if you have an issue.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| How is Dell's firmware security story?
| debo_ wrote:
| I can't think of many things I care less about than firmware
| security, so I am personally not sure.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| Sure, it's only a place for permanent rootkits and bootkits
| to proliferate, why care about it at all?
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I bought a few refurbished Dell laptops/desktops in recent
| years, and while older models hold fine, more recent models
| broke down quite easily within a year. Sure all of them are
| refurbished models (purchased through official website) that
| cost from $400 CAD to $800 CAD but I'm sketchy of the build
| quality of recent models.
| debo_ wrote:
| Good to know. My most recent is from 2021 and it holds up
| quite well.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| What model did you buy? Was it a new one? I'm looking for
| anything that can live up to 5+ years. I have seen all
| kinds of issues, and the most frustrating thing is, most of
| the issues are small but deal-breaking.
| debo_ wrote:
| The XPS 13". I like highly portable laptops. The hardware
| has held up quite well.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Thanks. I always bought workstations, maybe I should try
| XPS instead.
| dagmx wrote:
| Dell build quality and longevity vary wildly.
|
| My XPS 15 had a host of issues, all of which occurred commmonly
| but weren't knowable at the time of purchase since it was
| early.
|
| 1. Battery swelling which wrecks the touchpad
|
| 2. Sleep issues so it would turn into a furnace in a backpack
|
| 3. Screen and keys randomly stops responding
|
| 4. Creaky body
|
| 5. Screen gets weird temporary burn in.
| chipheat wrote:
| > I read various reports of the Framework 13 having issues with
| poor battery life, fan noise, heating, etc
|
| Intriguing, I read the same but instead for the Framework 16. I
| ended up getting the AMD 7040 Framework 13 because of those
| reviews.
| starkparker wrote:
| > One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least
| some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and
| inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to
| share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and
| (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a
| (possibly) worse battery.
|
| The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand
| the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's
| considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of
| the 13.
|
| Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't
| clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac.
|
| What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the
| 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is
| arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you
| mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I literally mention the reason in the article in the
| "Configuration" section (https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-
| returning-my-framework...)...
| starkparker wrote:
| Yeah, and as others have noted here in the comments, it
| doesn't make sense.
|
| You don't want bulk, but you chose the bulkiest option. You
| want a display with more even brightness and colors, but you
| chose the model intentionally built around a more refresh-
| performant but uneven display. You either don't care about or
| didn't bother measuring GPU performance, but you chose the
| model designed entirely around novel GPU features.
|
| You cite unsourced reports of 13s having anti-properties, but
| it reads like you didn't research either newer 13s or the 16
| at all.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| What about Qualcomm's Windows ARM M1 competitor?
| wmf wrote:
| X Elite is mostly regarded as a dud.
| garretraziel wrote:
| I have one and I am really happy with it. YMMV of course.
| justarandomname wrote:
| I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with
| it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits
| on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it
| until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu.
|
| I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-
| house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if
| I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework
| (perhaps the 12")
|
| The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an
| upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap
| out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.
| thenobsta wrote:
| Same. I'm very happy with my FW13 too. It replaces the MBA for
| my purposes -- dev on linux (mostly webdev on this machine,
| have a remote machine for gpu/heavy work), web browsing,
| streaming, some very light gaming (portal 2 on steam).
|
| I'm waiting on that test too :) a few more cpu generations and
| I'll be itching to upgrade. I'm excited to for that to happen.
| linsomniac wrote:
| >A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working
|
| For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and
| always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like
| an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and
| inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no
| good alternatives.
|
| Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit
| tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two
| depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the
| back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and
| reinstalled.
|
| Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard
| in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard
| operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.
| The_President wrote:
| Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the
| various revisions and the quality is on par with the other
| laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even
| a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and
| the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these
| computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline
| CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in
| a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model
| under web browsing/audio playing loads.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than
| Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but
| inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be
| dead when I take it out
| The_President wrote:
| I shut mine down completely and haven't had the battery drain
| issue, but on "modern standby," yes these don't last very
| long. Probably 2-3% per hour on standby and worse than that
| if anything is plugged into the expansion slots.
| sillystuff wrote:
| If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC:
|
| ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during
| S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last
| couple years) AMD processors.
|
| Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the
| foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully
| supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed
| up to see what has actually landed.
| The_President wrote:
| Thank you - Good info
| deryilz wrote:
| If you're going to put it in a bag for a week, why not use
| some kind of hibernation feature?
| buckle8017 wrote:
| He bought the last likely to be compatible and oversized option.
|
| Of course he didn't like it.
| RomanPushkin wrote:
| Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you're not chasing raw
| performance.
|
| I ended up with two machines:
|
| - MacBook Air (16GB)
|
| - MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM
|
| The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The
| MinisForum is still "portable enough" and gives me real
| horsepower when I need it.
|
| I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor
| as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe's tote bag. I even
| presented a conference talk using that setup.
|
| For ~$2k total, you can buy:
|
| - a MacBook Air
|
| - a small PC + one or two portable monitors
|
| - and still have money left
|
| IMO the era of $2-3-4k "do-everything" laptops is over. I don't
| see how and why they're competitive.
| Frotag wrote:
| I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think
| it was ~1000usd).
|
| > Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the
| gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges
| are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving
| them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will
| build up in these edges over time. > There's also a practical
| problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the
| laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined
| with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop
| for dear life, you will at some point drop it.
|
| I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp
| might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different
| height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than
| intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't
| mind the lines / colors.
|
| Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or
| accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping
| the corner with the spacer all the time.
|
| > The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not
| great either.
|
| Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the
| keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking
| something.
|
| > The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
|
| I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600)
| with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty
| impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the
| OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as
| the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously)
| had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images.
|
| > I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems
| to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage
| thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of
| battery per charge for average programming usage.
|
| Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that
| end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours
| browsing the web / watching youtube.
|
| > For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the
| Framework 16 feels more like a EUR1200-EUR1500 laptop at best and
| certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience.
|
| Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But
| I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably)
| low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot
| more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is
| nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a
| new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with
| V) have amazing battery life._
|
| Framework seems to offer the "H" variants only, though. Looking
| at specs, the "V" variants appear much lower performance and
| less capable. (Maybe a good trade off, but... YMMV.)
| eigenspace wrote:
| The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due
| to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and
| absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a
| direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU.
| Thunderbolt is just too slow.
|
| Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way
| faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU
| than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with
| my laptop without a massive performance loss.
| could-of wrote:
| > A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working,
| specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get
| it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not
| consistent.
|
| I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed
| to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard
| ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to
| unscrew is the bottom cover.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I may be wrong here but IIRC at least with the 7th generation
| you have to disassemble the whole thing to get to the keyboard.
| I'll have to take a look though, because if it's really that
| simple then I may be able to make my life a bit easier. Thanks
| for the suggestion :)
| juancn wrote:
| The battery life doesn't appear to be all that better than
| conventional laptops when running Linux. This isn't entirely
| surprising because of a lot of the battery improvements on macOS
| are the result of the software and hardware integration, not just
| the hardware
|
| The issue is the kernel here, not just the hardware. Linux power
| management is meh.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Variety is great, but idk why anyone would buy anything other
| than MacBook for programming or media work in the age of Apple
| Silicon. Unless they specifically need CUDA or a particular
| version of Linux or some Windows features, or actually want to
| tinker with/ tweak the computer continuously.
| sdwr wrote:
| It's true, they're unbeatable as consumer products now,
| especially after Intel dropped the ball so hard
| kelnos wrote:
| I'm a programmer but I can't stand macOS, so a MacBook isn't an
| option, as much as I like the hardware. I've looked at Asahi
| Linux, but, while they've done an amazing job with no
| documentation, it doesn't meet my needs.
|
| So Debian on a Framework 13 it is. And it's fine! I'd agree
| that Apple hardware is probably the best, but the difference
| doesn't really matter to me all that much in practice.
| grigio wrote:
| Thanks for review, the framework is a great idea in theory but in
| practise is still raw
| oldestofsports wrote:
| Why would an OLED display not make sense in a low light
| livingroom situation? I really don't understand it, what is the
| issue in this specific scenario?
| layer8 wrote:
| I think the author is confused here. Low-light conditions are
| one of the important use cases for OLED, due to the vastly
| better blacks.
| tordrt wrote:
| Yeah doesn't make sense, if anything its the opposite.
|
| Burn in is probably a valid concern though.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of
| the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I
| get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those
| areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried.
|
| Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the
| system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the
| spin-up was definitely valid the times when I checked because the
| device was extremely hot, I think from charging.
|
| Now the laptop is being used as a server. Ended up being good for
| Jellyfin because I can have the GPU handle transcoding and
| tonemapping of 4K HDR movies.
| systemtest wrote:
| Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display,
| trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It
| would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your
| machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad
| is so easy.
|
| Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is EUR20 but they could
| offer a EUR150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro
| for people who value sound.
| ziml77 wrote:
| They should be able to offer a better trackpad module (and
| I've been hoping that they eventually do). The speakers seem
| like a harder problem to solve. The acoustic engineering that
| goes into designing a good speaker involves every element
| that can interact with the sound waves, not just the driver
| itself.
| duped wrote:
| The problem is you need correction EQ built into to the
| drivers tuned to the enclosure (in addition to loudspeakers
| that are also designed accounting for their directionality,
| position, and the volume of the enclosure).
| rangestransform wrote:
| you also need a lid angle sensor instead of a open/closed
| detector to account for the acoustic reflections off of the
| screen
| shantara wrote:
| It's not only a matter of having better hardware (though it
| certainly helps a lot). For example, Apple does a lot of
| software tuning and tweaking to make the Macbook speakers
| sound as good as they do. And it's been fascinating to read
| the extent of work Asahi Linux had to do to recreate the
| software portion of Macbook's audio stack.
|
| https://asahilinux.org/docs/sw/audio-userspace/
| https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio
| RickyLahey wrote:
| my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro,
| disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in
| the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+
| battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely
| notice that you're on mac os.
|
| It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Also install the GNU coreutils (or I guess uutils). If you're
| begrudgingly using macOS then you're going to hate the
| differences between BSD and GNU utilities.
| realusername wrote:
| Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software
| stack.
|
| Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but
| at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder
| really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install
| software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.
| Hackbraten wrote:
| > and homebrew is in the same category as npm.
|
| Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository
| maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers.
|
| NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload
| whatever they want.
| realusername wrote:
| If has maintainers, well it's clear by now from all the
| security problems which happened in homebrew first that
| it's nowhere as diligent as apt or rpm.
|
| Also next problem with it, I really don't want to build
| everything from source, otherwise I would use Gentoo and
| not MacOS...
| Hackbraten wrote:
| > it's clear by now from all the security problems which
| happened in homebrew
|
| What kind of security problems do you mean?
|
| > I really don't want to build everything from source
|
| Why do you think that Homebrew forces you to build
| anything from source?
| grimblee wrote:
| I hate the fact the keyboard is non-standard, the mental hoop
| to jump between my normal keyboard on my desktop and the
| macbook pro one is a no-go.
|
| I told my job I prefered an old lenovo thinkpad than this dumb,
| vendor-locked, thing.
| beeflet wrote:
| Does this hack give me access to the source code?
| jeffbee wrote:
| Considering this customer's gripes, I might suggest the Lenovo
| Chromebook Plus 14. It's even lighter than their X1 Carbon, has
| great battery life, is silent, and has a spectacular display.
| YegoBear wrote:
| So basically the same price as an already decently upgradable
| Thinkpad P1 G8 on sale, but with a terrible screen and janky
| chassis. Plus it costs about the same to upgrade as getting a new
| machine, but then you no longer have the ability to throw Linux
| on the old one and donate it to a school or less fortune person.
| Tough sell.
| cdev_gl wrote:
| I can't speak to the rest of the text or the laptops themselves,
| but as someone who works with color reproducibility in video and
| print, those photos comparing colors of two different screens are
| worse than useless.
|
| Uncalibrated screens photographed at different angles in
| different lighting conditions are not a valid basis for
| comparison. If you want properly calibrated displays, you need to
| purchase hardware (datacolor makes one such device) and calibrate
| them.
|
| Even "factory-calibrated" monitors will benefit from this,
| because the quality of that calibration varies widely and your
| color reproduction is going to vary based on ambient lighting
| conditions etc.
| Groxx wrote:
| I can add anecdata for the factory profile being very over-red
| - it's quite obvious out of the box. Not as bad as many Samsung
| OLED phones you see in stores (typically set to some crazy
| "enhanced" mode), but it's certainly closer to them than a
| calibrated screen.
|
| One thing that has bugged me for a while though: why isn't it
| possible to make my own color profile by hand? Everything seems
| to imply that you can only get a profile definition file from a
| calibration device, and I don't have one... but I can eyeball
| it significantly better than the default profile. Is there
| something software out there that will let me adjust my curves,
| like the OS already does with night-mode color balance changes?
| GranPC wrote:
| I too would be interested in such a tool. I've had some luck
| finding close-enough ICC profiles, but it would be great to
| dial it in.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| The photos are just meant to illustrate the difference to the
| reader, not to be anything scientific. Of course manual
| calibration is ideal, but having a somewhat sensible default
| calibration isn't much to ask for and is in fact something many
| other laptops do just fine.
| daviddever23box wrote:
| Problem is, display profile support for Wayland has been, at
| best, spotty until recently - and, there should be multiple
| accurate targets available on any good display panel.
|
| My factory-seconds F13 (using 11th-gen Intel, still the best
| in terms of power savings) shipped with the older glossy
| display, which had a known, disclosed-as-cheaper LUT issue at
| lower brightness settings. After a couple of calibration
| rounds, it is spot-on and my go-to PC laptop.
|
| Decent keyboard, too.
|
| Of course, things are often more expensive in Europe
| (compared to the US) for zero good reason, so the F16 will
| always be at a proportional disadvantage compared to the F13.
| You may find that a much better fit.
| a_sulvanite wrote:
| I am aware that most people don't have any idea of what
| "display calibration" is actually about (which is primarily
| about display _profiling_ ), but the observation that the
| "The colors of the display are overly saturated, with reds in
| particular looking more intense than they should." seems to
| be to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening
| here.
|
| The framework 16 has a screen that is more capable of
| displaying reds than either of your two comparison screens
| (X1 Carbon 2019 seems to have a sub-sRGB gamut, while the
| Eizo CS2740 seems to be designed to match AdobeRGB [which has
| a red primary that matches sRGB]). This is by design, as
| framework claims 100% DCI-P3 gamut coverage (which has a more
| saturated red primary than sRGB/AdobeRGB).
|
| In terms of red saturation, the framework monitor is
| literally displaying superiority over the other two by
| demonstrating the capability to show more colours, yet it is
| being framed in a negative light here as being something that
| is "over saturated".
|
| The responsibility to dictate how much of the display's
| capabilities (i.e. red saturation) to use to lies squarely in
| the software (and their associated colour-management
| systems), which require a display profile (ICC) that
| accurately models the display's capabilities (profiling), and
| thus allows colour-managed applications to appropriately
| scale their source colourspace values into the target display
| colourspace values. These display profiles are generated via
| colorimeters or spectrophotometers using specialized
| software.
|
| Once an appropriate profile is loaded (for each screen), the
| output image should look identical on all screens that are
| capable of displaying the colours in the image (e.g. in an
| sRGB case, all three screens show show the same image, save
| for maybe the X1 Carbon being slightly desaturated).
| Correspondingly, attempting to display an image with a DCI-P3
| space (that fully utilizes that space) will cause
| undersaturation on both your X1 Carbon and the Eizo CS2740
| (i.e. the ability to show more red saturation is strictly a
| plus).
|
| If your critique lies in the fact that framework laptop does
| not ship an appropriate ICC profile for their monitor, then
| fair enough. But I don't agreement with the statement that
| "somewhat sensible default calibration isn't much to ask for
| and is in fact something many other laptops do just fine." I
| don't believe many laptop manufacturer's ship reasonable ICC
| profiles at all, and mostly just rely on either the consumer
| liking the oversaturated look or by having their panels only
| be rated for around sRGB where implicit colour management
| (i.e. doing absolutely no colour management and having it
| work merely because the source and the target are the same
| space).
|
| It is entirely possible that you do understand all of this
| and I'm making assumptions about potential misconceptions
| where none exist. However, you seem to have alluded to using
| Firefox as your main browser (which is not colour-managed by
| default) and your Eizo CS2740 being "properly calibrated (at
| the hardware level at least)," which to be suggests that you
| might be susceptible the misconception that I have pointed
| out. If this is not the case, then I deeply apologize.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| Thank you for mansplaining what color calibration and
| accuracy means, but I'm well aware of how it works due to
| my background in photography and having spent plenty of
| time calibration displays in the past.
|
| In particular, there's a big difference between "can show
| more colors" and "shows the same colors but overly
| saturated".
|
| The Framework 16 suffers from this by default, something
| that's quite obvious when comparing it by looking at photos
| for which you know what the actual colors look like,
| something I did do but didn't cover in the article.
|
| Whether this is because the display operates in a different
| colorspace by default (e.g AdobeRGB) or not I don't know,
| but there's at least no option for it anywhere in the BIOS
| that I could find.
|
| Claiming the Framework is superior over a monitor literally
| meant for color grading and photography is laughable to be
| honest, and seems to suggest you interpret display quality
| as "more intense is better".
| rewgs wrote:
| Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really
| puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is
| right now.
|
| Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run
| macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like
| the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I
| don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with
| Hyprland.
|
| PC laptop hardware is just shit in comparison. Like the author,
| my X1 Carbon (Gen 11) has keys that intermittently fail, and the
| cooling is pretty bad (I actually love the OLED display, though,
| and don't really understand the author's concerns here).
|
| I haven't found any non-Mac laptops that beat the X1 Carbon line,
| though (relatively low bar that it is). Frameworks are cool if
| you are fine with the tradeoffs, but personally I'm just not -- I
| much prefer to tinker with desktops/servers, and am totally fine
| with laptops being a physically-closed "appliance," as long as
| that results in great battery life, cooling, and adequate
| performance (I can always offload heavy tasks to my desktop if
| need be).
|
| Which is all to say: what I want is Mac equivalent hardware that
| can reliably run Linux.
|
| For now, I've landed on using my extremely beefy Arch desktop
| when at home, and my M1 MacBook Air (which is still running great
| 5 years on) when mobile. Even accepting that I'll be using an
| Apple device when mobile, though, there's still room for
| improvement in this setup: I'd love LTE support (no, a hot spot
| isn't a good replacement), a nano-texture display (which appears
| to be locked to the MacBook Pro line), and either an even smaller
| footprint (like the old 12-inch MacBook) or a little bit of
| active cooling to offset the performance regressions in macOS. An
| iPad might make sense, but I own one and frankly hate it due to
| OS limitations, such as only a single stream of audio at a time
| (which causes lots of bugs -- watching a YouTube video while
| scrolling Reddit will cause the YouTube video to pause whenever
| you scroll past a video on Reddit, even if it's muted), a lack of
| terminal, etc. I want a "real" OS, so tablets are out of the
| question entirely.
|
| I don't understand why absolutely zero PC manufacturers have even
| tried to take on Apple's laptop offerings. Sure, Apple Silicon is
| great, but Intel and AMD _have_ done an admirable job at
| increasing battery efficiency since its release; it 's not the
| only component that makes Mac laptops so great. I'm sure these
| manufacturers know what they're doing in this regard and have
| decided it doesn't make business sense to take on Apple. But man,
| I just wish someone would at least _try_.
| ruralfam wrote:
| 1000% agree with this. Been using Macs for decades, but now
| prefer Linux. But Mac hardware is just so much better. Funny
| note: Sorta just for fun I bought an old Mac Mini ($25) and
| installed Mac, Windows, and Linux Mint on it. Fun device that
| is actually pretty useful with a KVM letting me use it
| seamlessly with my main Mac (also providing a shared external
| drive). Fingers crossed that the next leader at Apple after Tim
| has a Nadella-like moment deciding that Linux can be a friend
| not a foe.
| neogodless wrote:
| I don't know how many laptops people own to rule out every
| possible model. My own experience is owning several various
| versions of Lenovo Legion for gaming and work, and currently an
| Acer Nitro 16.
|
| None of them have given me a single issue.
|
| Great screens, great keyboards, great performance, easy to
| upgrade the SSD or RAM. Short of really intense gaming, the
| fans aren't audible.
|
| And they are all around $1000-1200 USD. All with AMD CPUs and
| Nvidia GPUs. Doesn't seem like they are unicorns.
| rewgs wrote:
| ...and battery life that is nowhere near a Mac. And
| consistently shit speakers.
|
| I'm sorry but if you can't see that a $1,000 Acer doesn't
| compare to a Mac by any conceivable hardware metric then we
| don't have much to talk about.
| turtletontine wrote:
| Framework 16 owner here, had mine for a year and a half. While
| most of this post is also true in my experience, I just don't
| care. These are largely small cosmetic nitpicks that you need to
| look for to notice. The only complaints here that I really share
| are the jankiness of the spacers (a little jarring at first, but
| now I'm used to it), and the speakers really are noticeably worse
| than any of my other devices. So? I don't watch movies on it, or
| listen to music, that's what I have a TV and headphones for.
|
| Seems inarguable that you can get a much more "premium" laptop
| for about the same cost. But I didn't buy a framework for a
| "premium" feel... I was hoping to buy the last laptop I'll ever
| need. And so far I'm happy with the result!
|
| PS: the battery life is by far the best of any laptop I've owned.
| Maybe that just shows that my previous ones were junk, but I'm
| quite happy with it
|
| PPS: I should note my employer was willing to buy it for me, so
| price was much less of a concern. Not everyone is so lucky ofc
| ta9000 wrote:
| Or just buy a MBP and use MacOS and not worry about any of these
| problems. I use Linux for everything but my laptop, but I'm not
| about to deal with a subpar experience when decent laptops are
| already so expensive.
| chrsw wrote:
| I'm still chugging along on a Dell XPS Developer Edition that
| came with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. It's not as repairable as a
| Framework but it's been very reliable.
|
| If I had to get a new laptop for personal use today I'd probably
| go for an X1 Carbon. Those seem to have very good luck with Linux
| even without OEM installs.
| grimblee wrote:
| Tbh I just bought a 250EUR refurb laptop, it has 14k cpu
| benchmark and 16gb ram, 256gb ssd.
|
| Honestly do you need more to do terminal emulation? No, you
| don't.
|
| Ok I won't play bg3 on this but that's good, it means I'll be
| productive !
| endorphine wrote:
| I was in a similar situation to OP: my Carbon X1 Gen 8 keys,
| notably `/` and some arrows keys, stopped functioning. Sometimes
| they did, but it was very erratic.
|
| Luckily, when I replaced the battery (got a lot from iFixit) and
| tightened all other screws, the keys magically started working
| again.
|
| Saved me quite a few dollars.
| MassPikeMike wrote:
| OP wrote:
|
| "My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few
| months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided
| it was time to look for a replacement."
|
| Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the
| cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a
| small expense compared to a whole new laptop.
|
| Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard
| might be slightly challenging for an amateur. iFixit calls the
| keyboard replacement "moderate" in difficulty [1] taking about an
| hour with a new keyboard running about a hundred bucks. But it
| would be a simple job for a repair shop. So it seems hard to
| justify the expense of a whole new one rather than just the new
| part.
|
| Of course, sometimes you just want a new laptop, because the bike
| analogy breaks down a little: unlike bikes, newer ones are
| inherently faster.
|
| [1]
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+G...
| selkin wrote:
| Your analogy won't hold scrutiny with a competitive cyclist:
| newer bikes are also faster given the same rider, even if not
| as meaningfully as a new CPU.
|
| And modern bikes do make with the need for cable replacement or
| breakage (hydro lines and electric shifting, while more
| expensive to service, also require much less of it).
| izacus wrote:
| Life tip: Noone appreciates and there's no utility in
| nitpicking analogies. They're never the actual point of the
| message and it's incredibly rude and socially inept to lock
| onto a side quest like that.
| selkin wrote:
| idk, the OP is all about the author misunderstanding what
| they bought. Hence a comment about bikes not understanding
| bikes deserves just as much scrutiny.
|
| My own life tip: there are plenty of good analogies, so no
| need to choose use an example you are not familiar with.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| With this comment you completely validate izacus (shaky)
| judgement call: when you write "a comment about bikes not
| understanding bikes" you are clearly more interested in
| being rude than pointing out a flaw in the analogy.
|
| We all see that OP _does_ understand bikes in the general
| sense, indeed the fact you are nitpicking instead of
| trying to explain one of the many _fundamental
| difference_ means you think that as well.
| jfengel wrote:
| To me, it suggests that analogies aren't as useful as we'd
| like them to be. Either the analogy is perfect, in which
| case nothing is any simpler, or it's imperfect, in which
| case you're now distracted by the differences.
|
| They're not totally without value but I find that it's
| generally better to avoid a analogies. Look for some other
| route to make the point.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Analogies are a simplification. The problem is not that
| they can't capture the whole thing in detail. But that
| they just don't stand up to any adversity (because that
| isn't what they are for). They are only good for
| explaining things, not for arguing.
|
| They rely on the recipient going along with the analogy
| and trying to make it work, not trying to find problems
| with it. If someone understands the concept well enough
| to needle the analogy, they probably have a better
| understanding than the analogy can provide anyway, so it
| is fine to give it up.
|
| In this case it is neither used for arguing, nor for
| explanation really, I think, but as a bit of rhetorical
| flair. The analogy is to an obviously stupid thing to do,
| throw away your bike because of some easy to fix cabling
| issue.
| boneitis wrote:
| Generation 7. I realize you acknowledged the hardware age, but
| it's really the difference in my own workflows and experience.
|
| I'm still on a Gen 8 i7 (with 40 GB RAM, to boot) T480s. I take
| pretty good care of my machine, so it's still in superb
| physical shape.
|
| But, given today's massive webapps and video calls while having
| my workspace programs open, I'm in Hell. A failing keyboard
| would probably push me to repurpose the current machine and
| upgrade as well (and still replace the keyboard for kicks).
|
| If I wasn't strapped for cash, I would have bought an AMD
| Framework eons ago.
| nottorp wrote:
| > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low
| light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the
| evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.
|
| Huh? I thought OLED would make a lot of sense with a pure black
| background theme in your IDE. Less light in your eyes?
| Groxx wrote:
| I'm quite happy with mine, and like the keyboard in general
| though I can see why a coming from a decent Thinkpad would feel
| like a downgrade. I like it a lot better than the "butterfly"
| keyboards Apple insisted on, however, and have used quite a few
| more-expensive laptops with much worse keyboards. And I have
| gotten WAY more use out of the swappable ports than I expected,
| that's a killer feature imo.
|
| The price is a "put your money where your mouth is" purchase for
| me on repairability - it's absolutely not competitive with a
| same-priced machine. But it's not too crazy if you upgrade or
| replace damaged parts, the significantly lower costs there add up
| _extremely_ quickly.
|
| The speakers though. Holy cow. They're truly awful and I think
| they drag down the entire product - put them over 50% and they
| blow out the sound and distort _extremely_ badly. They really
| need to change them, I 'd happily pay a premium to get something
| more usable.
| desireco42 wrote:
| I have the similar ThinkPad like the author, except Gen 3, I7,
| 16Gb. Have Omarchy on it, works like a charm, even camera is not
| bad. Battery works but I can plug it in the same dock my macbook
| is (two usb-c dock).
|
| While you can change keyboard or battery on your Thinkpad, they
| are cheap enough, around $500 that you can just get a new one. I
| get why he wanted Framework, they say 13" are much better and
| more useful deal then 16".
|
| I wish Framework 12" is better, but it is not. Maybe Apple can
| dazzle us at this form factor.
| INTPenis wrote:
| As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first
| framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I
| realized that this is the laptop for me.
|
| I wish I had realized it earlier.
|
| But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually
| designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box
| like battery and wifi.
|
| Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was
| still hit or miss, especially with new releases, and you always
| felt like you were breaking warranty somehow.
|
| The entire experience buying a Framework, and using it, has been
| amazing. I'm hooked.
| tomComb wrote:
| Yes, that does sound good, but if someone wants an inexpensive
| laptop that is also "actually designed for Linux", they should
| keep in mind Chromebooks. I don't think of these as competitors
| to the framework, but as a lower end alternative that is
| usually overlooked.
| paulbgd wrote:
| kinda similar experience with my thinkpad t14s gen 2 amd (what
| a name.) I like framework's philosophy, but there's so many
| refurbished business laptops out there (many unused) that I
| like upgrading every few years to a 3-4 yr old laptop.
|
| Getting a laptop that's linux certified has been better than I
| thought, things like sleep and power management "Just Work"
| whereas on other laptops I'd spend more time configuring TLP or
| even just hibernating every time because I couldn't get a good
| sleep experience. Hope this inspires the other manufacturers to
| work on getting this working out of the box.
| andreashaerter wrote:
| I've been using ThinkPads with Linux since the T410, T420,
| T430, T480s, and several others. For me, they've consistently
| delivered an "everything works out of the box" experience with
| Ubuntu and/or Fedora, including things like SmartCard readers.
| I'm currently on a Lenovo X13 Gen 6 (AMD), and the only
| component that required any tinkering was the 5G WWAN due to
| FCC unlock issues (see: https://github.com/lenovo/lenovo-wwan-
| unlock/issues/68 ).
|
| One thing many people don't realize is that some Lenovo models
| can be ordered with Fedora pre-installed. That's a pretty
| strong signal for Linux compatibility.
|
| I've been watching Framework for years, and among my Linux-
| using colleagues we have ThinkPads, Frameworks, and Tuxedo
| machines, so comparisons are easy. I really want to like
| Framework, but recurring firmware issues, noise (!!), and the
| lack of built-in 4G/5G antennas have pushed me toward Lenovo
| every time. That said, I do like the modular idea. I even use a
| small USB-C adapter permanently to protect the port from wear,
| almost all docking/monitor issues I've seen over the years came
| down to worn cables or ports. In that sense, Framework's
| modules are genuinely appealing.
| InTheArena wrote:
| I ordered a framework desktop and got it "by accident" - in that
| I forgot that I had put down a deposit on a fully maxed out Ai
| MAX395+. After a few days of using it, I decided to keep it, and
| given how incredibly expensive 8tb NVMe drives and DDR5-8000 has
| beocme since then (even if you could get DDR-8000 on desktop form
| factor) - I don't regret that decision at all. It's a great
| little box - and AI is getting closer to colser to being a good
| experience.
|
| That said, I have run into a set of frustrations with it: 1) The
| PCIEx is completely useless on the board. Forget about room for
| the slot - it's not exposed, there isn't enough exposure inside
| of the case. This is a real miss - It seems perfect for a
| occulink port or another USB4 port. 2) USB4 + PCIe tunneling was
| a mess. Seems to be working better now. 3) There are some real
| thermal envelopes that are resulting in similar systems with the
| exact same architecture running 10% faster then this box. That's
| a big bummer - apparently it's tunable in their bios, but
| framework really limits the bios settings. 4) Randomly right now,
| the latest kernel on Ubuntu seems to freeze on boot. No idea why
| - I can move to the older .5 kernel, and it;s working.
|
| All that said, for what it offers - Framework offers a lot. I
| really honestly believe that either Mac or Framework is the way
| to go if you need significant compute power on the desktop.
| summa_tech wrote:
| I feel ya on the PCIe slot. And the on-board NICs are sub-par
| Realtek garbage, unacceptable both on features and quality.
| However, you can fit a small SFP+ card inside if you (a) cut
| out a correctly shaped hole in your case, and (b) turn the fan
| on at 40% instead of letting it turn off. The card will sit at
| a small angle but work fine, and with some 3D printing I even
| got a mounting bracket in to keep it stable. A lower profile
| connector, like USB 4, might fit outright.
| InTheArena wrote:
| Yeah, I was thinking of running a Occulink connector to the
| side of the case, the problem is that this would need a
| riser, and I don't think that occulink - even with a
| redriver, would do well with two additional physical
| connectors.
|
| On the 5GB realtek - i think their 5G is far better then
| their 1g or 2.5g devices where.
| summa_tech wrote:
| It may appear to work, but it uses a lot more CPU than a
| decent 10G network card, despite being half the speed. I
| shudder to think what their 2.5G must've been if this is
| better.
| mfer wrote:
| I bought an early framework 13. It cost a little more. I've since
| upgraded the main board to get a faster/newer experience. The
| overall cost has been less than 2 laptops.
|
| Some of this depends if you're playing the long game
| TylerE wrote:
| On the other hand, if you'd bought two laptops... you'd have
| another laptop.
| guipsp wrote:
| While that is true, it's not like I can use two laptops at
| once
| trueismywork wrote:
| > The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen
| scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not
| seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying
| around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't
| feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't
| a problem with the X1.
|
| The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and
| compares it to x1 carbon.
|
| Modular ports
|
| > Like the keyboard area the design is a bit janky though, with
| visible lines/space between the adapters and the case, though
| this at least is something you won't notice unless you're
| explicitly looking for it.
|
| Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines
| for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.
|
| The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what
| framework provides.
| kelnos wrote:
| Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I
| don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're
| making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable,
| and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with
| a desktop.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > they're only barely portable,
|
| Maybe for a very small person or someone who strictly travels
| light? But I've never had any problem with 15" or 16" laptops
| even while traveling internationally.
|
| > and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get
| with a desktop
|
| This isn't really true any more unless your desktop is a
| gaming monster or full of multiple drives or something. I can
| have a 128GB RAM laptop with ultra fast CPU on the go now and
| it's not a problem.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| You lose a lot of potential performance that comes with
| both efficient cooling and maintaining throughput in
| sustained loads.
|
| Laptops are thermally inefficient and require throttling
| even with active cooling, meaning mobile chipsets are
| programmed to emit less heat over time. You might hit
| advertised boost speeds for a little bit, but you can
| sustain them on properly cooled desktops.
|
| Then there's the fact that mobile chips are TDP capped at
| much lower rates than desktops, both to save power and to
| limit heat.
|
| Theoretically, your mobile chipset has a better $/Wh rate,
| but you leave some performance on the table compared to
| desktops.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > You lose a lot of potential performance that comes with
| both efficient cooling and maintaining throughput in
| sustained loads.
|
| So? I can't carry a full desktop or even Mini ITX build
| around just in case I need to run a very long sustained
| load at absolute peak performance.
|
| My 16" MacBook Pro has no problem consuming 80W or more
| at a time. The fans spin up, but it's fine. It's
| basically near desktop level performance for everything
| I'm actually doing on the go.
|
| I think people talking about the sacrifices of laptops
| are either comparing to extreme high end builds or
| they're stuck thinking about laptops from 6 years ago.
|
| A 16" MacBook Pro is basically a high end Mac Mini or a
| base Mac Studio with a battery and screen built in. They
| only really start to diverge from the bigger machines
| when you get into the really expensive Mac Studio builds.
|
| > You might hit advertised boost speeds for a little bit,
| but you can sustain them on properly cooled desktops.
|
| If you're looking for sustained high performance
| computing then a laptop is a bad choice, I agree. But
| what are we even talking about here? Even for compiling
| large codebases or exporting a YouTube length video
| project, you don't need the full thermal solution of a
| desktop anymore.
|
| Throttling also isn't a hard stop where the system comes
| to a halt any more. It just means the system is 60-80% as
| fast as it could be, which is still very fast. Throttling
| has become a bogeyman but really, it's fine. I'll take
| the boost for compiling that big project for several
| minutes. It's great.
|
| I'm guessing some of these comments are coming from
| people who haven't experienced modern MacBook Pro level
| laptops?
| kmeisthax wrote:
| The majority of 16"+ machines are being made specifically as
| portable desktops. The target audience is college kids. If
| you live in a dorm that you have to move in and out of
| yearly, it is leagues easier to travel with a bulky laptop
| than even a small form factor desktop machine, because of all
| the peripherals needed to run it.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| My vision gets worse as I age. A larger screen lets me
| continue working with the same amount of code, etc. as when I
| was younger with a smaller screen.
| harvey9 wrote:
| Agree with you. I am always interested in threads about how
| to make the best of this. I recently read a blog post by
| someone who tried a mini pc and battery pack and vr headset
| as a portable workstation. Short answer was the vr display
| still isn't there yet.
| dustbunny wrote:
| I have a 17" XPS and it's great as a computer for that floor
| of the house. Ie: for sitting at the kitchen table or the
| couch. I have a 13" for portability which is great because
| it's so small and light.
|
| MacBook pros these days are really heavy. Having a MBP and an
| Air is actually a fair inventory but the MBP is just so
| expensive.
|
| I do like the desktop form factor of keyboard and monitor but
| the 17"er is nice to use while I'm up making coffee in the
| morning or while sitting on the couch at night
| stevage wrote:
| I have one. It's my main computer. I can use it on a desk, on
| my lap, at a cafe.
|
| I find smaller laptops much harder to understand because they
| compromise the coding experience so much.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I don't understand what people mean when they say "barely
| portable" about a device that weighs less than 10 pounds. You
| can't use a big laptop one handed in midair, but that's not
| "portability". And it can't be a weight hauling problem when
| small children can handle that much. What _is_ the issue?
| javier2 wrote:
| im an average guy and carrying a 2.2kg laptop is no issue.
| Its well worth it for the days where I work a full day from
| the laptop.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| They are perfectly portable, if you would compare them with
| PC tower + display + UPS.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| > The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what
| framework provides.
|
| Indeed, I just pressed a "Buy now" button without a moment's
| thought. Clearly the fault is all mine.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| All of the complaints you had are extremely reasonable
| reasons to not want the Framework 16 (or any Framework).
| While I personally am quite happy with mine, I very much
| believe that it is not for everyone, and in fact has quite a
| niche audience. That being said, most of your complaints
| should have been obvious from viewing images or reading any
| of the numerous reviews. So yes, I agree with the GP comment
| that you seem to have bought the computer without knowing
| what you wanted and/or what the Framework offered/was.
|
| Being more expensive, heavier, and worse "fit and finish" is
| pretty much the tradeoff for upgradeability and
| repairability. Not everyone values those things to the same
| degree, and deciding that those tradeoffs are not worth it is
| completely reasonable. I just don't understand how you could
| get wind up buying one without knowing those were the
| tradeoffs you were making. I've read almost every one of
| these complaints in previous reviews. It's not exactly a
| secret.
| LarsAlereon wrote:
| So basically this article is 50/50 insightful and helpful
| feedback from a Framework customer, mixed with gripes by
| someone who bought the wrong laptop for them. Part of the
| reason this is getting a sour response is that most laptop
| companies don't even offer the choice of a larger, more
| expandable model. Framework does, and you bought it despite
| not actually wanting that, then dinged it for the compromises
| inherent in the design you chose. It seems like the 13.5"
| Framework was the obvious fit for your needs?
|
| To use a silly food analogy, imagine there's a popular salsa
| company. The customer base has been clamoring for them to
| release an extra-hot salsa that also has corn in it, though
| that's a polarizing combination. A purchaser gives it a bad
| review because, in addition to some very legitimate critiques
| of the spice flavors, it's too hot and corn doesn't belong in
| salsa. People who wanted the extra-hot salsa with corn have a
| point when they say that person should have reviewed the
| medium salsa without corn.
| orthoxerox wrote:
| > Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any
| lines for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.
|
| Machine them with wire EDM, like these executive desktop toys?
| Yes, I know the seamless effect is achieved by polishing the
| two parts together afterwards, but you can still achieve a
| practically gapless fit.
| whateverboat wrote:
| One bump in your laptop and you are shit out of luck then
| though. Removable parts imply that there needs to be
| extremely slight wiggle room (not to the level rightly
| criticized by the blog post author, but it cannot completely
| go away).
| javier2 wrote:
| My macbook pro 16'' is very heavy too at ~2.2kg
| emeril wrote:
| can't he just replace the keyboard? I'd imagine that won't be too
| hard?
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| Did you miss the following parts? Given my
| past experiences with X1 Carbon laptops breaking outside of
| warranty and the frustration that comes with replacing their
| components, I decided it was time to look for a replacement.
| [...] There are also some other issues with the X1 line
| in general, such as poor CPU cooling and the absolute nightmare
| that is opening them up to replace parts or clean them
| properly.
|
| Maintaining an X1 is certainly possible, but it's incredibly
| frustrating and based on my past experiences with this series I
| strongly suspect other components will also fail in the near
| future.
| schmuckonwheels wrote:
| Framework 16 has a 6 port maximum.
|
| 6.
|
| That means if you want:
|
| - HDMI
|
| - Ethernet (a must if you're doing real work)
|
| - an audio jack (why is this even an option?)
|
| - SD reader
|
| - USB-A port
|
| You are allowed (1) USB-C port. This is in a > $2200 laptop.
|
| $200 netbooks had all this (minus the Ethernet port) standard 10
| years ago.
|
| This is unacceptable. An artificial limit imposed by the
| mechanicals of the inefficiently large port modules - an idea
| that should have never left a whiteboard, let alone made it into
| a production laptop.
|
| On the bright side you are forced into configuring them as all
| USB-C, you can reuse the man purse you used to carry all your
| dongles from an earlier generation Macbook.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| I think they have another USB-C on the back if you get the
| upgraded video module. I wish all desktop replacement laptops
| had copious ports on the back like my Dell from ~2010 did. Who
| wants video cables jutting out sideways across your desk?
| beeflet wrote:
| I don't really use ethernet, or an audio jack, or an SD card
| reader regularly. I just use wifi and bluetooth, and I suspect
| most people do as well.
|
| You can also just keep the extra dongles in your backpack and
| plug them into any open USB-C ports, or just unplug the dongles
| to free up more USB-C ports as needed.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low
| light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the
| evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.
|
| What? Low light is ideal for OLED compared to most LCDs where in
| low light contrast is poor due to bleed-through on the black
| areas via the backlight. The problem here isn't the laptop, it's
| between the keyboard and chair.
|
| > I narrowed it down to two options: Buy a refurbished M1 or M2
| Macbook and run Asahi Linux Buy a Framework
|
| ...or stop being a dogmatic baby about your OS and run MacOS,
| which is infinitely better than Linux as a desktop OS?
|
| > I looked at some other brands but it appears that in 2025
| there's just aren't many good options for Linux users
|
| A market of less than 1% has terrible options? *gasp*
|
| The only people still using Linux on desktop are people who think
| that *twenty five years* into "the year of the linux desktop"
| this will be the year that Linux doesn't stop being the worst
| option for a desktop OS.
|
| If 2/3rds of the current linux distros hung up the hat and went
| to go help with other distros, there _might_ actually be progress
| on this front - but the nerds are too interested in fighting over
| asinine personal preference type things nobody else cares about,
| to actually make a distro that works properly and reliably. The
| Linux world is so hopelessly fragmented and there's thousands of
| people doing the same work as at least 6 other people all because
| they think their particular way of installing a linux package is
| better or their file layout is best.
| orthecreedence wrote:
| I'm on a Framework 13. Aside from the wretched 4:3 screen size
| (which I knew in advance, it was a tradeoff, but my god I miss
| 16:10) I really do like it. No battery issues, the thing is
| incredibly fast. I've had the pleasure of repairing parts of it
| (screen, keyboard) and it has been super easy. The touchpad's
| button click could be a little more "tuned" (I miss physical
| separate buttons), but that's my only functional gripe.
|
| But seriously, make a 14" 16:10 Framework please. I will buy a
| new one just for that.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| The 3:2 screen on the 13" is fantastic, I disagree and won't
| buy another shorter screen again.
| mlacks wrote:
| kind of short sided on the laptop choices. M1/2 for Asahi or
| Framework. What?
|
| Plenty of options from HP, not to mention German-assembled
| Tuxedo, and System76. Even moreso if going used
| Const-me wrote:
| A new keyboard for X1 Carbon 7th gen is available on e-bay for
| the price of $50-100.
|
| A faulty keyboard is IMO not a good reason to replace a whole
| computer.
| g947o wrote:
| > Knowing my luck I'd also run into OLED burn-in the moment the
| warranty expires.
|
| Not being aware of the author's history of luck, that's an
| extraordinary claim. OLED screens are commonplace in modern
| devices -- phones, tablets, laptops and desktop monitors etc. If
| burn-in is still a real and significant concern, manufacturers
| would not have released so many devices, often with OLED screen
| as the only option. You would see videos on YouTube and TikTok
| warning you about OLED screens everywhere.
|
| If anything, battery life is a bigger issue.
|
| I really wish the author had done more research before making the
| decision or writing this piece.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I don't understand the author, on the one hand he complains about
| the repairability of the thinkpads (which is weird in itself,
| they are still the most repairable laptops bar framework,
| especially because it's trivial to find resellers for pretty much
| all the parts. If finding all the screws is a problem, then you
| can just look at the repair manuals which are freely available.
| But after complaining about repairability he the looks at apples
| as alternative, which are like orders of magnitude less
| repairable than thinkpads.
| avidphantasm wrote:
| I know, the repairability isn't great, and they're not upgradable
| at all. macOS can be annoying and restrictive. But life is short,
| so I just buy MacBook Pros. I wasted too many hours in my 20s
| getting Linux to work on the desktop (not to mention a laptop).
| mgaunard wrote:
| The X1 Carbon is fine, not sure what is wrong with the 2k IPS
| display.
|
| Do you need 4k for a 13 inch laptop?
| ahachete wrote:
| I have two Framework 13 DIY, top of the line (Ryzen AI 9 HX 370,
| 96 GB of RAM, 2TB WD BLACK SN850X). Well, TBH just one, the other
| one was stolen with less than one month, but that's a different
| story.
|
| Can't be happier with this choice.
|
| First of all, now I feel confident I can easily tinker with my
| laptop, open it and replace any components. No, I'm not repeating
| their Marketing, I'm truly confident now. Some months ago my
| previous Lenovo X1 Carbon stopped charging and I was scared as
| hell. Sure, I have everything in version control and cloud drives
| blah blah blah but if it doesn't charge, it's dead. Sure, I can
| extract the NVMe (is it easy at all?) and rsync the data (for a
| faster recovery) but is that easy, feasible, can I do it on the
| go (X1 stopped charging while I was on a trip).
|
| The Framework 13 DIY I built it in less than 10 minutes. I can
| easily disassemble again in a heartbeat. This is priceless.
|
| Other than this, build quality is higher than expected, and
| several other people said exactly the same when I showed my unit.
| Powerful? Most than any desktop out there. Perfectly portable.
| Works well OOB with Linux. What else do I need? Nothing, it's my
| laptop and will be the next one.
|
| (Actually the next one may be cheaper, as I may only need to
| replace the motherboard, we will see)
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| What's the battery life you're getting out of the Ryzen AI 9?
| ahachete wrote:
| TBH I haven't deeply tested it yet. Laptop is a few days old
| and I'm still "automating the install" (Ubuntu autoinstall +
| Ansible tasks for post-installation including BIOS upgrade
| and install Nix + Nix and home manager to install everything
| else; post(s) upcoming), so I haven't done "production use"
| yet.
|
| Anyway, and while I love long battery life, it's not my main
| concern. Most of the time I have a power socket available
| and/or a nice portable battery pack that does the job. Laptop
| feels so much faster than my X1 Carbon that everything else
| seems to be a distant second feature.
|
| P.S. Hi, Yorick, again, not the first time we cross paths ;)
| dachris wrote:
| Writing this on a first-gen 13 DIY, so it's already a bit
| dated. I've already added additional RAM and swapped in a much
| bigger SSD (really underestimated how much space you need if
| you heavily use docker and VMs).
|
| The 1st year was a bit bumpy with 4k monitors over a USB-C hub
| being somewhat flaky. Ever since a clean Ubuntu reinstall, I'm
| very happy, no complaints whatsoever.
|
| Sure, it costs more, but the combo of perfectly running Linux,
| giving me the piece of mind of repairability and easy upgrades
| for me justifies a higher price.
|
| On the other hand, I'm not willing to pay the kind of premium
| you have with Apple products, where for incremental steps in
| more RAM or SSD you pay a multiple of the off-the-shelf price
| of the added space.
| ragall wrote:
| You do realise you can upgrade RAM and SSDs, as well as
| replace most components on ThinkPads too, right ?
| ahachete wrote:
| "Most components" seems a bit of an understatement when
| compared with the Framework.
|
| Sure, some components can be replaced. And not at the same
| cost (opening and manipulating the Framework vs the
| ThinkPad). But not all, like the motherboard.
|
| I may have built multiple dozens of computers in my life,
| so it's not that I'm new to this world.
| ragall wrote:
| Replacing the motherboard is just not an important thing,
| and that's demonstrated by how Framework has remained a
| very niche product.
| molarmanful wrote:
| I've been a very happy FW16 user, so much so that I got my
| partner an FW13 to replace her very old and very bulky gaming
| laptop. Similar specs to yours + AMD dGPU module. Recently
| cleaned the innards and upgraded my mainboard to the HX 370 in
| ~20min with zero issues. Compared to what I've been reading on
| various forums/threads, my experience as a whole has been
| virtually free of problems! FW + NixOS is a potent combo that
| squarely satisfies the kind of configurability/overall
| experience I need/want in the tech I use. (And perhaps more
| importantly, it handily assuages my paranoid mind.)
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > two thousand Euros
|
| There is a lot of weight put into this number...and it seems that
| everyone forgot why US makers prices have inflated to this point.
| It's not to polish the "premium" experience, it's tariffs spread
| on the whole customer base.
| brachkow wrote:
| Laptops are compared to other laptops availiable on market.
| Apple sells a entry line of their premium laptops at 1000$. And
| these are VERY good laptops.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Setting aside opinions about the product, the first 16" mac
| is around 2849 euros in the EU
|
| https://www.apple.com/be-fr/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
| pro/16-pouc...
| kassner wrote:
| The MacBook Air 15" costs EUR1399, doesn't sound too
| economical to pay double the price for the extra 0.9"
| poisonborz wrote:
| Rather subjective. I'm really happy with a used "16 gaming
| laptop, top performance, memory ssd extendable, extremely good
| display for ~1200EUR. Build quality is "ok" and creeks a bit, but
| magnitudes better value than a Thinkpad/Mac, even used ones.
| zeckalpha wrote:
| Display being bright even on the lowest setting:
|
| I wonder about rshifting the raster bytes...
| pech0rin wrote:
| I ran linux for 15 years on a range of different machines.
| Desktop the most successfully. For laptops I tried everything but
| once I switched to a mac I've never gone back. The hardware is at
| least twice as good as any other laptop.
|
| I've seen framework getting a lot of mind share recently.
| Especially with DHH singing their praises. I have come to loathe
| apple software over the years but can't get over terrible build
| quality.
|
| I thought framework was supposed to be the premium linux option
| but after reading this it looks same quality as all those windows
| turned linux machines.
| ekianjo wrote:
| I think if you compare on price alone, yeah there are quality
| tradeoffs when you purchase a Framework. They don't get
| everything right, and often an equivalent model from Lenovo or HP
| is going to feel superior. But... buying Framework is putting a
| stake into having somewhat open laptops that you can service and
| upgrade yourself. Lenovo laptops have become less and less
| reparable (following the MacBook formula) and it's very important
| a company like Framework continues to exist.
|
| At the same time, this kind of user feedback is very important,
| to help Framework identify the areas where they can or have to
| improve. Framework is a very reactive company and while hardware
| takes time, they typically address issues in their next models.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I don't recommended getting a Framework to anyone who isn't
| interested specifically in repairability, as it has its quirks
| and doesn't feel like something which should cost this much. I've
| broken _something_ in every laptop I 've ever owned (+the
| butterfly keyboard in a company 2019 MBP), so to me it's an
| important feature.
|
| That being said my previous device - a "gaming" laptop - was
| essentially e-waste two years after purchase because firmware
| updates stopped despite there being unresolved issues and the
| official parts store didn't even have basic items like fans,
| which I had to get from AliExpress instead. Eventually it was the
| cheapo Intel SSD which did it in, as it slowed to a crawl from
| being 80% full for too long.
|
| I think there's a problem with my 1yo FW16's keyboard as during
| intense gaming the "D" key temporarily just stops responding, but
| if it ever fails completely I can order a new keyboard and once
| it arrives replace it literally within a minute.
|
| Other parts take longer, but the general idea is that any sort of
| malfunction is manageable.
|
| > This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't sitting in the bottom
| right corner of your eye when you look at the display.
|
| This is about the power LED and it makes me wonder how dark is
| the author's environment? Is that healthy?
| piskov wrote:
| The thing about macbooks is:
|
| - dead silence
|
| - unbelievably good battery life
|
| - tank sturdiness
|
| - great performance
|
| - amazing screen
|
| - amazing speakers
|
| - god-tier trackpad
|
| - repairability in a sense you'll always find parts (albeit not
| cheap) and someone to service it
|
| --
|
| It is basically uncontested in a laptop space.
|
| I would only consider windows / linux on a desktop pc
| Tade0 wrote:
| > repairability in a sense you'll always find parts (albeit
| not cheap) and someone to service it
|
| I'm sorry but that is just false. Various organisations
| assessing repairability consistently give MacBooks poor
| scores for having soldered components, glue everywhere and
| complicated assembly.
|
| Meanwhile I have one screwdriver for my Framework, which came
| with the laptop and I can use it to replace any part,
| including those which are soldered on the MacBook.
| piskov wrote:
| That's why I specifically told what I meant: it is not
| about being able to swap SSD, but that for at least 5-7
| years you will be able to repair it (expensively).
|
| Moreover in basically every corner of the earth there will
| be either authorised service or local one that will help
| you if soak your laptop in thailand or what have you.
| beeflet wrote:
| You can't swap the SSD on a macbook?
| 654wak654 wrote:
| The only downside is that you have to run macOS
| piskov wrote:
| It's ok.
|
| I'm even very content with Windows in desktop using
| komorebi tiling manager. And macos compared to windows is
| still far ahead regardless of recent constant
| shittification.
| reisse wrote:
| The thing about Macbooks is people tend to compare them with
| _all_ of the regular laptops, of which 95% are in entirely
| another market segment. Even worse, some regular laptops can
| vary from "cheap shit" to "good machine" under one name,
| depending on the options selection (looking at you Lenovo).
| Hats off to Apple, having very narrow selection of models
| with very limited customization options helps them greatly.
|
| There are models from Dell, Lenovo, and ASUS which have
| better screens than Macs, better design and build quality
| (subjectively), on-par performance and just slightly worse
| battery life. It just takes time and effort to find them.
|
| (also, am I the only one who finds Apple trackpads
| _uncomfortable_ to touch?)
| piskov wrote:
| Name me premium one, I dare you.
|
| Take screens for example. Sure OLED is nice (if it won't
| burn in or have terrible PWM on low brightness), but most
| of them in past years couldn't afford custom resolution
| with great DPI: 220-250.
|
| No, those fuckers will install you either full hd or 4k
| resolution which is only good for movies.
|
| In every other case you'll need to use fractional scaling
| that will make your UI, fonts, what have you look like
| blurry shit.
|
| --
|
| The list goes on for battery life (google how many
| milliwatts apple consume during sleep), performance (full
| regardless whether they are plugged-in), etc.
|
| Mind you, I would love to see apple-quality hardware with
| linux on it.
|
| It just doesn't exist yet. Geohot lamented this recently:
| https://youtu.be/M96O0Sn1LXA
| sva_ wrote:
| I'm by no means an HP fan, but EliteBooks have pretty great
| repairability and (unintentionally) great Linux support. Though
| they are a bit bulky compared to laptops that have been soldered
| together. So there are definitely more options.
| cedel2k1 wrote:
| Welcome to Apple, enjoy your M1/M2 :)
| jollymonATX wrote:
| Wow had been strongly considering the framework 16 and really
| glad I read this. Thanks author! That keyboard space jank is not
| okay.
| ivanb wrote:
| What's is the deal with Linux and suspend? It seems only a select
| few combinations of hardware and software can handle suspend and
| resume. AMD is commonly praised for their Linux drivers but my
| all-AMD system crumbles down on power state transitions and
| especially suspend-resume. I never though words "data", "fabric",
| "sync" and "flood" can be used together, but now they are a
| common sight in my logs.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| Flex & build issues. Only 8h battery life. Display issues.
| Suspend issues. Trackpad issues. Speaker issues. Yup, and this is
| why you jut buy a MacBook. Sorry but there simply is no "option
| b" for laptop hardware quality.
| galkk wrote:
| I love my x1 extreme, I dual boot Linux (i3wm) and windows. I
| hate macOS with passion.
|
| My next laptop will be 16" MacBook Pro, when m5 version will
| arrive. I looked at reviews, I tried "deep research" with llms...
| there is just nothing even remotely comparable.
| 0x38B wrote:
| My brother has a 16, and it's been good for him. It is big and
| chunky, more so with the GPU module; only a few paragraphs into
| the blog post I felt the author was trying to fit a big square
| peg in a round hole, and then blaming the square peg for being
| big and square.
|
| That is to say, it's a big, heavy, expensive laptop. My brother
| works shifts in a remote location and from what I can tell, the
| 16 is great for that: you wouldn't bring a desktop, but once the
| laptop comes out of the bag, it's going to stay set up on the
| desk for the duration of the hitch. He tried leaving the GPU
| module at home, and found the AMD APU quite capable (he plays
| Tarkov and BF6, among others).
|
| I support Framework's vision and ethos and am willing to pay a
| premium for them. My sister uses my 11th gen Intel FW13 for
| school and is happy with it (only she wishes it was better for
| gaming), and the AMD 13 I bought was a massive upgrade in gaming
| capability and speed - I'm able to play Arc Raiders with my
| brother, one of the few online shooters who's anti-cheat works on
| Linux.
|
| Another big plus is that FWs play very well with Linux. The
| Wayland window manager Niri is amazing - so smooth and fast, now
| with alt-tab in the latest release. And I see there's Dank
| Material Shell (1), which bundles things like a bar, launcher,
| and control center that one normally has to assemble piece by
| piece in WMs like Niri and Sway (which I used before).
|
| 1: https://github.com/AvengeMedia/DankMaterialShell
| 0xWTF wrote:
| The 14" MacBook Pro is unequaled as a daily driver. You can
| compile some things in a pinch, but let's face it, if you're
| writing compiled code professionally, someone in management owes
| your team build resources. Your laptop is your canvas, your
| easel, your blank page, your sketch pad, and your research
| library and research notebook. In 2025 and in 2026, your laptop
| is not for compiling.
| supermatt wrote:
| > the Framework 16 feels more like a EUR1200-EUR1500 laptop at
| best... but two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just
| absurd.
|
| You are literally buying a whole new laptop because the keyboard
| is broken and too difficult to replace, instead of a EUR65 euro
| replacement part with framework.
|
| With framework, you are paying a 30% premium for the modularity
| and upgrade potential.
|
| If that's not important to you then why would you even buy a
| framework laptop?
| asno3030 wrote:
| I'm okay with spending 1000 on a screen and chassis, under the
| impression I upgrade the computer every 2 years. Unfortunately
| when a mainboard cost $1000, it's cheaper to buy a new machine
| every 2 years. This shouldn't be the case... Look at the chinese
| producing MoDT boards with full IO for $300 (likely the same
| shops who work with framework.
|
| I like framework in the sense that I can ship of thesues my
| laptop the same way I can with a desktop, but at the end of the
| day, the premium is outrageous. If third parties start making
| framework compatible boards I'll buy into the ecosystem.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Maybe the FrameWork company wants to build something out of the
| clutches of proprietary software and big corp hardware. And
| that's fine. Since they don't have the volumes to make enough
| money they may have to charge more per laptop, which is fine.
|
| But if they want to have me as a customer on these core values
| (which I'm pretty much aligned with), then they need an
| additional core value: they need to convince me their higher
| price is justified. So I want transparency on the way they use my
| money (and the one of their other customers).
|
| Without that, I'm left wondering if it is not some "green
| washing".
|
| IOW I'm sure Apple is expensive because it's luxury, I'm sure
| other laptops are not expensive because they're cheap/sold by
| millions. But FrameWork, I don't know why their expensive. And
| repairability doesn't count, design for repairability doesn't
| make things inherently more expensive I guess.
| mrheosuper wrote:
| I used to want a FW laptop. The idea is sound, instead of
| throwing the whole computer away when upgrading, just upgrade
| what needed(CPU, RAM, etc)
|
| But the execution is, not good. The cost of new Motherboard is
| sometime as expensive as the new machine that has similar spec. I
| understand FW does not have economy of scale like Lenovo or Dell,
| but, the cost of upgrading is deal breaker to me.
| StrauXX wrote:
| I won a max spec Framework 13 at a hacking tournament a few
| months ago and use it as my daily driver now. I'm very happy with
| it. The 13 is much more clean than the 16. Framework 16 still
| feels like a bit of a beta product.
|
| That being said, I probably would have gone with a Thinkpad if it
| had been my own money. The peicing is just really steep.
| mindcrash wrote:
| People _really_ should stop pretending that you 're getting a
| Macbook out of a Framework. You're not. You're getting a PC
| laptop with all the advantages of a self-build PC desktop.
|
| When you compare apples to apples (lol) - PCs to PCs - the
| current gen higher end Framework 13 and 16 are beasts. They
| contain the fastest mobile AMD chips on the market today, the
| Ryzen AI HX 370 aka "Strix Point". The only thing faster than
| that is the Ryzen AI Max+ 395 aka "Strix Halo", which would
| probably have some issues in a laptop with this size if you want
| to make full use of it because of thermals. Just look at the kind
| of cooler which sits on the mainboard of Framework Desktop (which
| does contain the AI Max+ 395) to get an idea what I am talking
| about.
|
| You can choose between no discrete GPU, AMD RX7700S or NVIDIA
| 5070M; or just purchase them all and swap them around if you want
| to. (and who knows what dGPU will be for sale in the (near)
| future... and all it takes for them is to make that thing fit
| into the Expansion Shell)
|
| Due to the included AMD mainboard you get USB4 instead of
| Thunderbolt 4, which means little to no protocol overhead when
| you hook up a EGPU and can run a docked 5070Ti or 9070XT at
| ~100fps @ 1440p.
|
| You get up to six (on the 16) expansion bays which enable you to
| swap external ports to any configuration you like. They even have
| created 2 external SSDs you can slot in on these ports and blend
| in with the laptop (which come in sizes of 256G and 1T), and
| released everything required to allow people in the community to
| create their own ports as open source.
|
| And I could rave on and on...
|
| But again: Is it a Apple quality laptop? No. Is it a beast of a
| PC laptop? Yes.
|
| PS: If you think Lenovo is the Apple of the PC world due to the
| fact that they could purchase some branding and design from IBM
| back in the day you are in for a very nasty surprise. I have all
| the hands on experience with a so called "premium" Thinkpad worth
| a pretty cool 3500 EUR back then to write this.
| TazeTSchnitzel wrote:
| The Framework Laptop 16 has worse performance than other
| laptops that have the same chips, due to thermal and power
| constraints. Upgrading to the fastest option Framework sells
| might not have much value when the power budget for it is so
| low.
| mindcrash wrote:
| PC Magazine thinks otherwise:
|
| https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/framework-laptop-16-2025
|
| I quote: "A DIY Desktop Replacement Dream Machine"
|
| It also outperformed the Asus Zenbook S 16 in their
| benchmarks, which also has a HX 370 SoC.
|
| The only thing they didnt like was the battery.
| pmdr wrote:
| This summer I bought and returned a FW 13, the newer AMD variety.
| Specs and performance were top notch, albeit a bit pricey I'd say
| (I brought my own 96GB of RAM and 2TB NVMe and the laptop was
| still 2200 EUR). Tinkered with it for a few days, tried Windows
| 11. The Mediatek Wifi card was horrible and it took a few hours
| of driver hunting to finally get it working in a stable fashion.
|
| Reading the FW subreddit, a lot of said 'just drop in an Intel
| wifi card instead.' Well, yeah, that would surely have worked,
| but, again, I had already paid a lot for the machine itself.
| Battery life was subpar for it to be of much use as a laptop, but
| I didn't really mind. The screen was quite okay.
|
| But what really put me off was how HOT and, consequently, LOUD it
| would get by merely watching YouTube at 1080p. Hot means really
| uncomfortable to touch and definitely not something you'd want
| sitting on your lap. People heard the fan from another room more
| than 10 meters away. That's when I decided that the little fan
| inside it would never be enough. With proper cooling, it would've
| been great as a workstation, though not as laptop meant to be
| carried.
|
| tl;dr FW has a lot to work on noise, cooling and battery life. I
| don't suppose there will ever be a huge market willing to
| overlook these aspects just for the sake of repairability.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Surprised how quickly the Thinkpad died; they used to pretty much
| last forever.
| chaostheory wrote:
| It's a detailed review with annoying conclusions.
|
| While it has improved a lot over the years, the core issue is
| that Linux still doesn't work well on laptops compared to other
| OS's. 99.99% of the time you're not going to get a "premium"
| laptop running Linux for this reason
|
| The other reason, he's not getting a "premium" experience is that
| he's buying a laptop built for repairability and upgradability.
| You're going to have a lot of tradeoffs for that.
|
| IMO the only way to have a "premium" laptop experience with
| Linux, is to buy a Mac and run Linux in either a container or VM.
| It's an understatement to say that the author is not being
| realistic.
| moribvndvs wrote:
| As a reader interested in Framework and looking for honest
| feedback in the wild, this was a really frustrating blog entry.
| It feels like at every turn you're coming up with conflicting
| requirements and impossible demands that even your X1 doesn't
| meet. For example: regarding the MacBook, the worry about long
| term support for Asahi is understandable, but one of your main
| criticisms is that it has the same battery life as other Linux
| laptops? You wanted a bigger, repairable laptop and didn't expect
| it to be larger or heavier? You preferred the slightly more
| washed out red of your old laptop, but didn't tell us whether you
| could fix it with a display setting or why having more vibrant
| colors or having to adjust display settings is a bad thing for
| your use case? Have you considered just turning on a light rather
| than working in a dark room (please turn on a light, I destroyed
| my eyesight working like that)? I'm devastated to read you found
| the battery life simply par and that it used a little bit of
| electricity after suspend for 8 hours like every other laptop on
| the market, and that you were able to turn the power led off but
| not in your preferred location.
|
| At the end of the day, you're not required to like a thing for
| any reason you see fit, but I very much hope you figure out _what
| you actually need_ and that such a device actually exists on this
| planet before you purchase another one.
| pastor_williams wrote:
| I bought a framework 16 shortly after it came out. My one gripe
| is around the track pad and the modules on either side of it. The
| fit there is not great. I really wish they would sell a full
| width track pad piece because the seams are imperfect. That said
| after the first month it hasn't bothered me. Definitely something
| I would change but not something that I notice or am
| inconvenienced by in daily use.
| kinow wrote:
| I am quite happy with my AMD 13 laptop. It replaced my Thinkpad
| T530 after its ~10 years of service. So far, nearly one year
| after buying it, everything works well. Ubuntu, Docker
| containers, clion+pycharm, sometimes Blender and other apps. Plus
| several tabs on Firefox. Camera and audio are better than my old
| thinkpad, so i have nothing to complain about yet.
|
| There were issues like configuring Linux (extra monitor, logitech
| mouse, tablet, some software) but I found everything on Framework
| forums or googling a bit.
| nathias wrote:
| I went for a similar upgrade from X1 Carbon. I don't undestand
| why OP would compare the weight of a 16 to carbon which is closer
| to framework 13 (which I bought).
|
| For me on Arch it's working great and has none of the issues he
| mentions, its the best laptop I ever owned. I bought one because
| the Carbon started decomposing fairly quickly (headphone jack,
| usb c port, keys) and think the modularity is a really great
| feature.
| askonomm wrote:
| I have a Framework 16, and as for it being a Linux machine I
| couldn't be happier with it. I still daily drive my MacBook Pro
| 16 instead, because it's just a more polished, more performant
| (and better battery life) machine, but still, I also really like
| my Framework 16. I eagerly await the time when Linux desktops
| reach the level of polish I'd like to have, and I feel like that
| isn't that far away anymore.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| The hidden story is the depth of work required to replace a
| keyboard on a newer Lenovo. The amount of work is absurd. Easily
| an hour or two for the casual owner plus use of multiple tools.
| Don't blame the author for giving up on it.
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+6th+G...
|
| "Step 26: Remove the seventy-two 0.5mm screws holding keyboard in
| place."
| cassepipe wrote:
| Contra the author, the extra vertical space you gain with the 3:2
| ratio on the 13' version makes up for the small form factor,
| especially it makes you realize that what you are often missing
| on a laptop is extra _vertical_ space.
|
| Exactly, this is why he should have got the 13' version.
| Sometimes you feel you want something "just _slightly_ larger "
| (sic) than 14' but if you are not ready to pay the price for it,
| what's I am pretty the issue comes from people wanting to work on
| two windows side-by-side but for that to be comfortable you
| really need _at least_ 16 ' if not 17'
|
| The way I go around this issue is that instead of having a subpar
| side-by-side windows experience I just optimized for fast window
| switching: I just have mod + j/k mapped in my windows manager
| (can't do that in Gnome ofc) and I can just put the two window in
| their own workspace so that it's only cycling through those two
| if needed
|
| My main gripe with the framework 13' is that it doesn't feel
| sturdy for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it is _not_ flimsy
| either but if you get your hands or a macbook or even some other
| laptop in the same price range of the fw, it will _feel_ better.
| I thing it has to do with the partly recycled aluminum, it 's a
| material that's just not as hard as it seems.
|
| On the other hand not having to throw out your laptop because you
| stupidly broke the screen is a great feeling.
| rhodey wrote:
| I own 2 framework 13 laptops at this time and repairability aside
| I am also just happy to support a new PC hardware co.
| wappieslurkz wrote:
| Apple could sell so many Macs to Linux users looking for decent
| machines once they'd open up the hardware just a bit...
| etempleton wrote:
| Beyond Apple, I think the state of laptop quality is absolutely
| abysmal. I haven't tried Framework, but it is disappointing to
| hear their products suffer many of the same issues as other PC
| builders. I guess there just isn't a market.
| QuiEgo wrote:
| Just get a linux desktop and the cheapest MacBook Air and remote
| into Linux from the Mac when you need to go portable.
|
| There's the world as you want it to be, and the world as it is.
| The laptop the author wants just doesn't exist.
| SergeAx wrote:
| My desktop PC has been constantly evolving for about 15 years
| now, literally the ship of Theseus. Currently, following the
| latest upgrade in September, it's an absolute powerhouse.
|
| During the same time, I burned through four laptops (for travel
| purposes), all of which were mostly weak, with a maximum of 16 GB
| RAM, no real GPUs, and 14"-15" screens, expensive, and had poor
| resale value.
|
| My next travel computer will be Framework 16.
| cxplay wrote:
| I'm currently in China, pondering whether Framework's approach to
| promoting repairability is feasible locally. I can easily
| purchase parts for nearly any retail laptop (yes, nearly any) on
| online shopping sites, sometimes even including the motherboard.
| Repairing electronic hardware isn't easy for non-professionals,
| but Framework's parts aren't just "parts" anymore--they're
| modules designed for easy repair. They clearly aren't
| manufactured and sold as individual components. This reminds me
| of LG's modular phones. For a time, their market lifecycle was so
| short that some of LG's premium modules ended up circulating at
| prices higher than the devices themselves.
| philo_sophia wrote:
| I don't find framework appealing for upgradability, but I do
| think it's great for repairability. Being able to extend the life
| of a machine easily by replacing a cracked screen or degraded
| battery is so much better than going to the fruit store and being
| upsold a new machine and spending more. Obviously you pay extra
| in upfront costs and sacrifice build quality for a framework.
|
| Also I think framework will excel in the SMB market where
| companies may have diverse requirements for different employees.
| Some just need a machine for email/browser and others for dev or
| video editing. But they can share parts, and upgrading a dev
| machine might have the benefit of upgrading other employees
| machines with the extra parts.
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