[HN Gopher] I'm returning my Framework 16
___________________________________________________________________
I'm returning my Framework 16
Author : YorickPeterse
Score : 117 points
Date : 2025-12-24 12:55 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (yorickpeterse.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (yorickpeterse.com)
| rookderby wrote:
| I'm still schlepping around with various used thinkpads. Maybe we
| get another HP Dev One that sells well this time.
| ndiddy wrote:
| I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had
| any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack
| of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with
| the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with
| x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop).
|
| It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build
| quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many
| options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework,
| it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the
| configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less
| configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a
| Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell
| still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS
| keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less
| functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I
| guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon
| and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being
| 1200p.
| brokencode wrote:
| Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in
| laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn't
| want OLED, but I've never noticed such a problem on OLED
| phones.
| ndiddy wrote:
| A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low
| brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who
| would be sensitive to that sort of thing.
| jeffbee wrote:
| PWM is the only useful way to drive an LED and the people
| who deny this are, to me, hilarious. In fact for the
| author's stated use case of low light conditions PWM really
| is the _only_ way to do it without wrecking accuracy (and
| efficiency).
| piskov wrote:
| OLED phones are bad because of flicker
| antonkochubey wrote:
| On iPhones at least you can disable PWM dimming at lower
| brightness level at the expense of color accuracy. It's in
| Accessibility/Display settings.
| piskov wrote:
| Now tell me a model which has this given that OLEDs are
| here since iPhone X
|
| Hint: the only one was released in a year that ends with
| 25
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| I'm using an OLED X1 Carbon right now in the UK. I use it all
| the time in low light.
|
| I just turned all the lights off (even the Christmas tree)
| and ran through a handful of usage situations and couldn't
| see any issues. I turned some lights on and did the same, I
| couldn't see any issues. I asked Claude, and got told to do
| the finger test, and that is barely perceptible. I then used
| my phone to record the screen and yes - I can confirm that
| there is an effect that my pixel 9a's camera picks up, barely
| noticeable at 240Hz, and definitely noticeable at 480Hz.
|
| Maybe the guy is particularly sensitive, but from the framing
| of the rest of the article I think he's blowing a few things
| out of proportion.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I probably should've done a better job at clarifying this,
| but my issue with OLEDs isn't just that (at least
| historically) they tend to be too bright even at lower
| brightness, but also the other issues they come with such
| as burn-in and text potentially looking less pleasant
| compared to IPSs displays. Burn-in is probably my biggest
| concern here, especially since it really seems to be a case
| of winning the lottery or not (i.e. for some it's fine for
| years, others get burn-in after just a few months).
|
| Basically I just trust IPS more than any other technology
| :)
| Frotag wrote:
| I've only recently bought OLED laptops so I can't speak
| to burn-in but out of the three I've tested, they have a
| lower minimum brightness than my other IPS laptops.
|
| In terms of text clarity, "2k" OLEDs (1920x1200) are a
| bit blurry. IPSs and 3k OLEDs are noticeably sharper,
| with not much difference between each other.
| sillystuff wrote:
| For the brightness issue, if you are running X:
|
| allow dimming display beyond normal max dimming:
| xrandr --output eDP --brightness 0.5
|
| restore to normal brightness range:
| xrandr --output eDP --brightness 1
|
| (substitute the actual output name for your display
| instead of eDP; run xrandr without args to list)
| easygenes wrote:
| I'd say the inverse is true: OLEDs are the _best_ in low
| light, as they generally dim well and black means zero
| illumination of the pixel. Author is ill-informed. Also, OLED
| burn-in is a non-issue with current displays in any normal
| situation (e.g. not a kiosk or arcade or other sort of
| always-on static dashboard).
| cromka wrote:
| > having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop)
|
| How so? Is this because some proprietary software that isn't
| available on ARM on Linux?
| OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
| TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to
| apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses
| everywhere.
|
| I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years;
| until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and
| soaked them.
|
| When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each
| piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This
| morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except
| the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot.
|
| While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the
| keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it
| was more premium, it ultimately failed first.
| 65 wrote:
| To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard.
| It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and
| then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was
| magically able to boot.
| foldr wrote:
| As the sibling says, it's definitely worth waiting at least a
| week or two to see if the M1 recovers. I've had the same
| experience.
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next
| to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is
| famously OK for this - no need to put it _in_ the desiccant. A
| little bit of airflow is also good.
|
| You may also find that rotating it into different positions
| accelerates it.
| nottorp wrote:
| Any repair shops specialized in saving devices from water in
| your area?
|
| Haven't had a laptop rescued yet, but there was a phone simply
| dropped in water in my family. I put it in a 1 kg rice bag,
| drove to the repair shop. I don't know what magic they did but
| it worked for 2 more years until we upgraded it.
| TOGoS wrote:
| I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First
| they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with
| Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird
| power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise
| a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth
| with support about that for two years before they finally told me
| it was out of warranty so I was SoL.
|
| Then there's the screen that falls backwards.
|
| Should've bought an old Thinkpad, instead.
| The_President wrote:
| They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I
| finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed
| them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are
| tuned as expected.
| comte7092 wrote:
| I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can't help
| but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the
| core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many
| comments here on hn.
|
| Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect
| a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the
| value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine,
| and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
|
| People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators
| that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will
| lament how manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then
| turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable
| laptop, or the price.
|
| I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don't
| consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a
| "premium" experience, but that's is just something I have to
| accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture
| places so little value on it though.
|
| Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of
| scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we'd have
| to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn't
| above criticism, but if you don't care about these things then
| why look at this machine? A large established brand is always
| going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.
| api wrote:
| I feel like Framework wasn't for this customer. They would have
| been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.
| mPogrzeb wrote:
| I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.
| Numerlor wrote:
| Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on
| framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even
| if I completely made use of the hardware after a future
| upgrade.
|
| Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability
| idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop
| that's not compelling against its competitors
| casenmgreen wrote:
| I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.
|
| Get away from Intel and management engine.
| kec wrote:
| Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one
| of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about
| avoiding Intel I'm assuming you want Linux and doubt the
| support is as good as asahi on Macs)
| E39M5S62 wrote:
| Snapdragon support is decent to great these days, and
| importantly it's all in the mainline kernel tree.
|
| Edit: though it should be said that what I think is good
| might be a far cry from you think is good. I did use a
| Thinkpad X13s as my primary work machine for 6 months,
| though.
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| I mean, this could literally be the last laptop shell,
| screen, keyboard and power adapter you ever buy. That's a
| fantastic sustainability story. Not to mention that if it
| dies you are never at risk of having to replace the whole
| thing unless it melts in a fire.
| kec wrote:
| It could be... but it won't be. Internals will be
| outmoded quickly, and I would be shocked if logic boards
| from ~5 years from now will still be compatible just as
| needs evolve (especially around cooling and power
| delivery)... and this is all before physical wear and
| tear on screen/keyboard/ports.
|
| I would be very surprised if many frameworks are upgraded
| ship of Theseus style for decades, or if the total cost
| of ownership (and even ecological impact, most of the
| nastiness is going to be the electronic internals, not
| the metal casing) is lower than for someone buying a more
| integrated laptop ever 5-6 years.
| ericd wrote:
| In the context of the massive amount of throwaway
| packaging involved in the food supply chain, or every
| other part of the supply chain for every consumable we
| use, how big a deal is that? Are electronics uniquely
| impactful in terms of sustainability versus eg plastic
| clamshells to transport apples?
| contingencies wrote:
| Macbook air = small keyboard, small screen, limited
| battery, all parts expensive to service, etc. Try hacking
| a Mac Mini instead:
| https://github.com/vk2diy/hackbook-m4-mini
| rogerrogerr wrote:
| A MacBook Air is just a Mac mini with a keyboard, screen,
| and battery. You can choose to attach the same
| peripherals to your MacBook, and have the flexibility of
| a laptop when you need it. Paying a couple hundred dollar
| premium for this is a good deal.
| tstrimple wrote:
| Literally just picked up a 13" M4 Air for $750 from Best
| Buy for my wife. It was spend $500 to replace her older
| MBA screen or a bit extra for a whole new device.
| adolph wrote:
| > I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.
|
| You can't do that with the 16, only the 13 [0] and you
| can't upgrade ram on it. Which is kind of the problem in a
| nutshell. Over time fewer user modifications make sense due
| to the context of the whole computer as an integrated
| system.
|
| 0. https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-
| mainboard
| _zoltan_ wrote:
| nobody ever does. maybe 2 people on the planet...
|
| for everybody else, a Mac is perfect ;-)
| arghwhat wrote:
| The pricing when I looked was similar. I went with a Lenovo
| last time because the Framework 16 hadn't quite matured, but
| premium anything is never going to make financial sense.
|
| Buying and repairing a framework is never going to be cheaper
| than going through consumable trash laptops, and buying top
| of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never
| going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade
| laptops and upgrading more often.
|
| What you're paying for right now is the customization
| capabilities and the ideology. Upgrading and customizing a
| single platform with a community, vs. a fixed one-off design
| that'll be lost next time you upgrade.
|
| If Framework isn't already compelling to you at this time,
| then you're not the target audience. They might drop in
| price, but they'll never win a race to the bottom.
| aydyn wrote:
| The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of
| upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy
| experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just
| absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.
| casenmgreen wrote:
| I have a 12th Gen 13. No problems like that.
| slabity wrote:
| The sharp edges are exclusively an issue with the Framework
| 16 due to the spacers that allow you to change the
| alignment of the trackpad. It's definitely been one of my
| main annoyances with my F16 that I didn't experience with
| my F13. I've been scratched by them and had my arm hair
| caught and pulled.
|
| However, Framework has already indicated that they are
| looking into providing an input module that spans the
| entire width of the device to eliminate the need for the
| spacers.
|
| I don't really know what the "creaking screen" is about
| though. IMO the F16 screen and hinges are a higher build
| quality than the F13. I had to upgrade my F13 hinges to the
| 4kg hinges to keep it from bouncing and moving.
| kelnos wrote:
| I had a 12th-gen 13", and I had severe thermal throttling
| problems that took _two years_ for Framework to resolve to
| my satisfaction (eventually they gave me a free 13th-gen
| upgrade that "solved" it).
|
| I think the "I have X and don't see problems the author
| has" is a generally useless statement. Well, duh, sure,
| it's pretty rare that everyone will have the same problems.
| And some people will end up having no problems at all. But
| that doesn't invalidate the experiences of the people who
| _do_ have problems.
| GenerWork wrote:
| >Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they
| expect a premium experience, but no where is there an
| evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and
| repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention
| of the configurability.
|
| I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect
| when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that
| Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's
| frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value
| proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| > an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and
| repeatability of the machine
|
| The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the
| consumers participating in it.
| Frotag wrote:
| I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop
| to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah
| I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most
| people.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| Apple continues to be the elephant in the repairability
| room. You want something that likely won't need repair ever
| for its useful lifetime, a current MacBook is worth looking
| at. Upgradeability, nope.
| tim333 wrote:
| They are less repairable but not impossible. My M1 Air
| has had a new usb port and screen. Battery probably soon.
| robrain wrote:
| Yup, Apple user since 2001, desktop and laptop, 20ish
| years in an office environment used for 8+ hours a day,
| now 5 years retired. Total faults - zero. Desire to
| upgrade RAM before rest of machine needed updates (eg
| storage+CPU+screen) - zero. Dissatisfaction with "Apple
| model": zero.
|
| But... lately I've felt a hankering to run Linux as a
| first-class citizen rather than a VM and that's
| definitely a gap in Mac functionality. I wouldn't
| sacrifice the five years I enjoy MacOS on my machines for
| the ability to then move them to Linux, but it would
| still be nice.
| Terretta wrote:
| Having managed fleets of Macs (along with Windows and
| Linux machines) at last three $worksplace, repair/replace
| is no more hassle with Apple than Lenovo.
|
| Arguably less, as if you have the right relationship with
| Apple, you can let your employee walk into any Genius
| Bar(tm) for fix, or walk into Apple Store or visit your
| own smart hands crew (with inventory on hand), for an
| incredibly straightforward swap.
|
| And to your point, it's almost never needed.
| fmajid wrote:
| Enterprises that buy ThinkPads do care about
| maintainability and Lenovo does provide parts and detailed
| instructions to repair almost every aspect of their
| machines.
| kelnos wrote:
| Your assertion seems to be trivially proven false, given that
| Framework still exists as a going concern.
|
| Though I suppose what you say is perhaps still true, if you
| allow "almost" to do a lot of work.
| Terretta wrote:
| One can move the word "almost" to make more sense: it's
| only _almost_ a market even if everyone in it is rabid
| about those features.
|
| It's not a substantial share of the overall laptop market
| because, quoting from above...
|
| _people don't consider the ability to repair or upgrade
| your machine part of a "premium" experience ... will lament
| how manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then
| turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable
| laptop_
|
| The flip side is technorati gripe about Apple (lack of)
| repairability, but their _revealed preference_ then shifts
| back to this: a claim to want reliability but actions of
| shoppings for premium performance and fit and finish in
| slim value-holding form factors. To achieve those,
| particularly with durable value (and resale value to prove
| it), there 's a way to make things that "repairability"
| generally makes compromises from.
|
| Research has suggested Apple's approach -- laptops with 4x
| the usable and resalable life span -- results in less
| e-waste per capita than both the disposable and repairable
| ecosystems.
| wmf wrote:
| Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for
| the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it
| hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.
| fruitworks wrote:
| you get another mainboard to use as a sever or resell
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I think what's lost here is when the framework project was
| launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and
| reliability was unknown.
|
| Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a
| whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable
| enough that ram failures aren't front of mind. Same for SSDs.
| wmf wrote:
| Gaming laptops tend to have replaceable RAM and SSD so the
| advantage of Framework 16 is much less.
| piskov wrote:
| > replacing a stick of ram
|
| How often does your RAM fail you?
| Octoth0rpe wrote:
| The use case is to replace an existing working stick with
| a higher capacity stick, not just for repairs.
| culopatin wrote:
| On my experience, every time I've been in the situation
| of looking for more capacity because the software
| requirements have gone up, I'm 1-2 generations of DDR
| behind and it doesn't really make sense to do the upgrade
| anyway.
| loeg wrote:
| Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into
| better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim
| that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury"
| territory.
| kace91 wrote:
| >Is 2000 eur even a lot of money?
|
| It's my entire professional life's computer investment - a
| MacBook Pro in 2013 and an m1 MacBook on 2020.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon
| cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly.
| But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and
| this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least
| with the 16 inch model.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I think you've brought a really interesting point up. A lot of
| these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation.
| Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn't in
| the right spot.
|
| The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that
| doesn't have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge,
| hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and
| repairability being bad for business)
|
| So, a framework laptop, that's as light, thin and fast as a
| mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs
| to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get
| to this and the more customers they can please.
| oldestofsports wrote:
| 2000 euros was a premium price 10 years ago, today it is closer
| to mid range
| vanviegen wrote:
| Uhh... What?
| thiht wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted, that's a ridiculous
| statement. 2000EUR for a laptop is definitely premium
| pricing, not mid range.
| oldestofsports wrote:
| I wouldn't call anything with less than 64gb of memory
| premium, and if we look at macbooks were already looking
| above 3000
| justin66 wrote:
| > I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don't
| consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of
| a "premium" experience, but that's is just something I have to
| accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture
| places so little value on it though.
|
| Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at
| roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually
| care about upgradeability and repairability. This feeling took
| me by surprise. Modern Macbooks are just _so much better_ in
| terms of feel it 's like comparing tech from a different
| decade.
|
| (it also turns out that having a defect that the manufacturer
| doesn't make right can cause a person to feel a few different
| things, but gratitude for the product's repairability isn't at
| the top of the list)
| osigurdson wrote:
| Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like
| hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness
| and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long
| as it lasts 8 years.
| esseph wrote:
| This is exactly what I want.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| IMHO I dont think people are considering what you lose when
| you cant upgrade, You get locked in to a device
| artificially created life cycle that's dictated by the
| manufacturer.
|
| I understand where you are coming from, I guess it just
| makes me sad to see more and more people moving away from
| tech that is less in their control. And i consider
| upgradability and modularity and important aspect of that.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Yeah I agree. You can get _two_ base MacBook Airs for the
| price of that laptop. A base MacBook Air is a very very
| capable machine.
| conception wrote:
| Also buying a laptop that's not subsidized by ads and
| shovelware.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Please subsidize it by ads and shovelware, I'm not going to
| use the factory image anyways.
| asmor wrote:
| I bought a Framework 13 because I wanted to send a signal to
| the industry that there was a market for repairable devices
| with good Linux support.
|
| I also wouldn't be buying anything from them in the future one
| because supporting a certain individual developer, DHH, who
| holds political opinions incompatible with my existence very
| easily makes the "buying Framework for political reasons" bit
| moot. Their CEO avoiding the issue and throwing a red herring
| (Hyprland) into the discussion didn't help either.
|
| I know I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.
| Hackbraten wrote:
| I feel the same.
|
| When I learned that Framework started sponsoring DHH's
| distro, my immediate thought was that I'm not going to buy
| anything from them ever again.
|
| On the other hand, you can boycott only so many companies
| before you start boycotting yourself out of existence. One
| has to draw the line somewhere.
|
| I just hope Framework is going to come to its senses and
| eventually stop supporting distros that are controlled by an
| openly racist individual.
| asmor wrote:
| I actually agree with boycotts not being effective. I'm not
| exactly boycotting Framework - but I will not accept
| getting less value than I could get elsewhere for the
| signaling power for repairability anymore. I'm clearly
| _very_ misaligned with their politics now, and Nirav wouldn
| 't even address these concerns head-on (there is a thread;
| he posted in it; he hasn't mentioned Omarchy, RubyCon or
| DHH with one word).
|
| It's unfortunate I feel similarly (though less strong)
| about Louis Rossman/FUTO, because I like it when right to
| repair has strong advocates.
| Levitating wrote:
| Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're
| forced to buy it. Framework offers repairable laptops at a
| fixed price. To some the repairability adds enough value to
| warrant the higher prices, to some it doesn't. (As well as
| customizability and mainline Linux kernel support).
|
| I've found that if you're in the habit of repairing laptops,
| Frameworks may come cheap to you as you might have spare
| storage and ram around. Not being forced to buy ram and storage
| is one of the "luxuries" of buying framework.
| c0balt wrote:
| > Not being forced to buy ram and storage is one of the
| "luxuries" of buying framework.
|
| To be fair at least Lenovo and to some extent dell also offer
| this for individual customers.
|
| It usually is not an option on the latest processors for
| premium models though as soldered RAM becomes more prevalent
| there. A minor problem of the author might be that they are
| looking at the relatively high tier models, which ime have
| less options for "saving" money, while something like a
| thinkpad e14 might also have been a good candidate instead.
| llmslave2 wrote:
| > Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if
| they're forced to buy it.
|
| This happens all the time, especially with Apple. Complaints
| about the inability to side load or use alternative stores
| for example. Nobody forced you to buy it. It's stupid when
| people do it for Apple and it's stupid when they do it for
| Framework.
| idle_zealot wrote:
| > Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if
| they're forced to buy it.
|
| What is the implication of this? You're not allowed to
| criticize a product unless you're being forced to buy it?
| What is the list of companies you're allowed to levy any
| critiques of, then? Your electricity provider? You could
| always move, right?
|
| Is this the mentality that leads people to only ever
| criticize government power and let all others off the hook?
| simonjgreen wrote:
| I for one am delighted with my Framework laptop that started
| out as an Intel, is now an AMD, and has seen 3 rounds of in
| life upgrades. Zero regrets.
|
| The author should have just bought a MacBook.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer
| as much in upgradeability as it sounds. While it can be
| compared to laptops without modular RAM, SSDs, or Wi-Fi cards,
| the real comparison is to laptops with modular ones of those
| for significantly less and suddenly the amount of
| upgradeability value drops significantly. Unofficially, many of
| the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen
| on as well. The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU
| while keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not
| that high in terms of upgradeability - especially with the
| breadth of selection so far. In the meantime, you're paying
| significantly more for less quality to have said ability.
|
| To me, the core value proposition of the Framework is actually
| more in customization than about upgradeability. That's just a
| lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can place your port layouts
| in any order you want, you can customize the keyboard style and
| layout, your order builds up without really assuming you want a
| charger, RAM, and SSD to be included. If you don't particularly
| care about those things or you can find a laptop which matches
| what you want up front then it just leaves you questioning the
| massive price increase to do it the Framework way instead.
|
| I'd really like to enjoy the idea of fully upgradeable laptops,
| but I think trying out a Framework laptop just made me realize
| how much it doesn't work out like I'd hoped rather than making
| me more excited for it. I ended up returning it and,
| ironically, getting a 395 laptop with soldered RAM (in my
| defense, Framework sells a desktop with this as well).
| axelthegerman wrote:
| I don't see why upgrading a motherboard to one with a newer
| generation CPU is not valuable. Or why going 16 to 32 GB RAM
| a few years after buying it first isn't.
|
| Yes full upgradability of each component would be pretty nice
| but now we have a desktop and factors like compactness and
| "premium feel" would be even worse
| kelnos wrote:
| > _I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn 't actually
| offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. [..,]
| Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to
| upgrade even the screen on as well._
|
| The Framework's screen _is_ officially upgradeable, though,
| and I see that as a strength: while you or I might not blink
| at doing an unofficial screen replacement for some other
| laptop, I 'm sure most people would be afraid to attempt
| something like that.
|
| I've also (officially) replaced the webcam (new one is
| definitely better) and speakers (new ones are better but
| still meh). When my battery starts to go, I'll replace it
| with the higher-capacity battery that's available now.
|
| So it's definitely quite a bit more than just RAM, SSD, Wi-
| Fi.
|
| > _The value prop for replacing the mainboard+CPU while
| keeping the same generation RAM and SSD is really not that
| high in terms of upgradeability_
|
| I agree on the RAM: I have a Framework 13, and my next
| mainboard upgrade will require new RAM (which is of course
| crazy expensive right now), as my current board uses DDR4.
| But I view that as a forced upgrade; if I didn't _have_ to go
| to DDR5, I 'd probably stick with DDR4, and I'm sure it would
| be fine, even if not optimal.
|
| But I really don't understand or agree with your comment
| about the SSD. I have a 2TB NVMe drive in my current laptop,
| and I expect I'll be using the same drive for years to come,
| certainly through my next mainboard upgrade, and probably
| even the following one.
|
| > _That 's just a lot less valuable overall. I.e. you can
| place your port layouts in any order you want, you can
| customize the keyboard style and layout,_
|
| Right, agreed: I have not changed the layout of my ports in
| more than a year at this point, and I never changed the
| keyboard style/layout. It _was_ nice to be able to easily
| replace the keyboard when my original one developed issues a
| few months ago (not Framework 's fault... it was my cat's
| fault), at least.
|
| But I think all of this is a matter of taste. I expect there
| are some people who change out their expansion ports fairly
| often. It's fine that I don't value that feature as much as I
| expected I would.
|
| My expectation is that I'll have this laptop chassis for
| another 10 or so years, probably with 2-3 mainboard upgrades
| in that time. My prior two (non-Framework) laptops were in
| the $1800-$2000 range, each of which lasted three years, and
| had significantly less RAM than my Framework does (those two
| laptops weren't even offered with 32GB, let alone the 64GB I
| have now).
|
| My next mainboard upgrade will likely be the cost of that new
| laptop, given the crazy cost of DDR5 right now (though it
| looks like I'd be paying Dell around $2400 for a 13" laptop
| with 64GB; I could probably do the Framework mainboard
| upgrade plus RAM for $1800 or so). But maybe the next-next
| mainboard upgrade will still use DDR5, and I'll get a brand-
| new computer for around $1k. That's a really great value prop
| for me.
| kelnos wrote:
| I'm torn on your take, because on one hand I agree
| wholeheartedly (I own a Framework 13, and considered the
| repairability to be a part of the price, and a little added
| bulk to be a trade off I was comfortable with), but on the
| other, I think there's just some entirely-reasonable human
| psychology at work here that expects a EUR2k laptop to be
| premium in fit, finish, and polish.
|
| But I do think Framework still has a ways to go when it comes
| to polish and build quality. I've had my 13 since August 2022,
| and had a ton of problems with it (thermal issues) that were
| only resolved nearly two years later, after lots of frustrating
| back-and-forth with support. I'm _very_ happy with the laptop
| these days, but it shouldn 't have taken that long to get
| there. I now have the 2023 Intel mainboard (the final
| resolution to my support case), and I'm looking forward to
| upgrading it to whatever the 2026 model turns out to be[0].
|
| For me, Framework has been sort of a "stick with it for a while
| and it will get better" type of experience. And while it's
| worked out, that shouldn't be how it works. It should work well
| on day one. And frankly, based on the author's description of
| the Framework 16, it sounds like the 16 is not even up to the
| 13's level of polish.
|
| [0] Well, we'll see what DRAM prices look like next year, as I
| have 64GB of DDR4 in my current laptop, and that same amount of
| DDR5 is not something I'd want to pay for right now.
| ip26 wrote:
| Upgradable _to what_? The ability to upgrade is well and good,
| but suppose the "endgame" configuration of an upgradable laptop
| was worse than the very base model of a non-upgradable. Why
| would you care about upgradability then?
| kelnos wrote:
| That's a weird argument/hypothetical, because the Framework
| is _not_ worse than the very base model of a non-upgradeable
| laptop.
| ip26 wrote:
| It's an extreme framing for the sake of thought experiment.
| More specifically, I believe for "upgradable" to be a
| meaningful sellable feature you need something like this:
|
| LaptopA costs more than low-spec LaptopB. But LaptopB can
| be user upgraded post-purchase to be strictly superior to
| LaptopA (even though this costs a bit more in the end)
|
| Or
|
| LaptopA costs more than LaptopB. But LaptopB can be
| upgraded and customized to be superior than LaptopA under
| certain parameters (say, a high quality display) for a
| lower total price than LaptopA.
| HeWhoLurksLate wrote:
| Upgrading to a new processor, or in the case of Framework,
| perhaps better hinges or keyboards or the like is IMO much
| more important to the long term desirability of a laptop than
| a 5% better keyboard or trackpad or RGB LEDs on the chassis.
|
| I feel like the term "endgame" has completely lost its
| meaning - an "endgame" laptop is likely to be wholly
| irrelevant in at most ten years, especially so if you buy a
| super high end machine and expect high end machine things
| from it long term.
| ip26 wrote:
| Yeah, it's a dumb term, sorry. Top spec? Whatever it is.
|
| Certainly it's fair to argue that the top spec will
| continue to grow year over year, like happens with long
| lived desktop CPU sockets. Framework is bearing this out!
| But that spec does have to actually be GOOD!
|
| This is the hard part about what they are trying to do. Is
| a 12th gen in a Framework better than a 10th gen in an
| fully integrated laptop? If not, what does being able to
| upgrade to 12th gen mean?
|
| The IBM PC platform worked so well because every annual
| component upgrade was an immense step forward. The macs, by
| contrast, began to dominate when the annual upgrades began
| to provide less benefit than seamless vertical integration
| did...
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Is it fair to say that maybe the author doesn't value
| repairability? Maybe they just want a 'premium' laptop in the
| way the Apple laptops are premium, but want x86 and
| Linux/Windows? Surely for as large as a market there is for
| Apple laptops there is for a non-macOS equivalent.
| monooso wrote:
| The author begins by stating that "the absolute nightmare
| that is opening [the X1 Carbon] up to replace parts or clean
| them properly" rules it out.
|
| He then eliminates the MacBook because if "something needs
| replacing I basically have an expensive paperweight, because
| everything is soldered together".
|
| This would suggest that the author does, in theory at least,
| value repairability.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| > but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by
| upgradability and repeatability
|
| Back in the day we used to have upgradeable laptops that
| weren't rattling tin cans with uncomfortable displays. Making
| something worse than it was 20 years ago for more money isn't a
| value.
| chickensong wrote:
| You're not calling out the upgrade ability enough.
|
| Most people comparing the price of a Framework seem to miss the
| long view. After the initial purchase, every upgrade is cheap
| compared to buying an entire laptop over and over again. Bonus
| that you can repurpose or sell the old mainboard.
|
| There are better laptops than Framework when compared as one-
| to-one at a certain point in time, but that's missing the point
| of Framework's approach.
| doug_durham wrote:
| The point is that a laptop is a tool that you use every day.
| It needed to be reliable and very usable. Framework is
| compromising on usability in the service of upgradeability.
| It seems like you can have refined tool, or a repairable one.
| hakcermani wrote:
| I have a FW13, 3 yrs old, battery was getting weak, i just
| ordered one from FW and popped out the old one and put in a new
| one. Same for SSD and memory. This alone makes me stay with FW.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| > In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits:
| they're upgradable, repairable
|
| Why would you propose that the author does not care about these
| things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue
| voter - and who is, when buying something as complex as a
| laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made
| here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into
| some detail to explain as to why.
|
| I am super excited about Framework stuff: They are clearly
| getting somewhere with this; it's nicer than anything that came
| before with comparable repairability. I think it's super
| plausible that we don't exhaust the physical limitations that
| arise through repairability before it's so nice, that the
| trade-off will be negligible for most folks.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's
| price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for
| sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing
| the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison.
|
| I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see
| that many people don't want to pay or consider the
| ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given
| time. Most devices are designed to be throwaway, manufactures
| cut corners, operate at a loss. These are byproducts from our
| badly designed technology from a suitability perspective that
| have driven prices down in a unhealthy way IMHO.
|
| Its like trying to compare prices between now and fifty years
| ago. If you want the world to be more sustainable, you need
| to consider that its going to cost more, its not going to be
| comparable to whats out there right now, and you are going to
| need to deal with the growing pains.
|
| Comparing Framework laptop to whats out there today in terms
| of features is a losing proposition. The market is built
| around a lack of sustainability.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "People (not necessarily the author, [...] will lament how
| manufacturers don't have upgradable ram, etc and then turn
| around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop,
| or the price."
|
| I desire sturdyness and repairability but anything larger than
| a 14-inch machine (and then only either as detachable or at
| least convertible) is completely inacceptable to me. And that
| 14-incher better be a dream. In other words: As small and light
| as possible, as big and heavy as neccessary.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability
| and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically
| anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner
| mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically
| capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe
| once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually
| advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy to
| justify.
|
| So while upgradability and repairability are great to have,
| their material impact on day to day user experience is minimal,
| except maybe for people who have a tendency to severely
| underspec their initial hardware purchases. On the other hand,
| things like chassis rigidity, cooling performance, fan noise,
| and battery life being subpar are constant reminders that you
| spent a pretty penny on a laptop that's not meeting your needs.
|
| The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded
| and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is
| akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't
| stop people from wanting it anyway.
|
| As an aside, I believe that Framework could probably get closer
| to that ideal if they unchained themselves from the port module
| idea. Yes it's cool, but it forces all sorts of design
| compromises that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, and I'd bet
| that something like 80-90% of Framework buyers would be just as
| happy if changing ports required opening up the chassis,
| swapping out side plates, and doing a little bit of internal
| wiring.
| dangus wrote:
| One of the issues with the 16 is it's just a way worse value
| proposition than the 13.
|
| The 13 is great. I'd even go as far as calling it a good deal,
| cheap even, especially if you DIY and bring your own memory and
| storage.
|
| The 16 just gets badly outclassed by alternatives.
|
| I think the problem is that once you get into that big laptop
| territory people start wanting more specific use cases like
| gaming or other performance metrics. There has to be a reason
| to want a big bulky laptop.
|
| Plus, bigger laptops more frequently come with better
| repeatability.
|
| I also find that there's a lot more PC competition in the
| 15-16" screen sizes. The framework 13" is actually uniquely
| small/light. The Framework 16" is somewhat worse packaging than
| its competitors.
|
| The 16" really needs to have an option for a 5070Ti and 5080.
| orthoxerox wrote:
| If I wanted the innards of my laptop to be upgradable, I would
| want the only part of it that would stay with me for the next
| decade or two (the chassis) to be damn near perfect.
|
| There's a reason why there are enthusiasts making custom
| motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row)
| ThinkPads. These things were built like a German executive
| sedan.
| debo_ wrote:
| Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or
| Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell
| laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a
| powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's
| premium model:
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...
| justarandomname wrote:
| My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran
| XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for
| a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall
| unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I
| side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with
| an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue
| as it used to be.
| debo_ wrote:
| 2005 is a really long time ago.
| kelnos wrote:
| When it comes to WiFi on Linux, 2005 experiences are
| irrelevant to today.
| varispeed wrote:
| Please don't trigger my Dell PTSD. This is garbage tier
| hardware designed to harass employees.
| debo_ wrote:
| Ok
| The_President wrote:
| Nothing says quality like a display option with a picture
| comparable to a cheap portable DVD player from 2007.
| timcobb wrote:
| This is a good call.
|
| I wonder what this means:
|
| > featuring up to 80W of performance
| The_President wrote:
| Probably marketing reading the power adapter
| mort96 wrote:
| I've had two Dell XPS laptops (a 13" 2015 model and a 15"
| 2-in-1 2018 model). Both had significant touchpad issues: not
| sure if that's a driver thing or a hardware thing, but both
| would sometimes act as if there was a phantom touch somewhere
| on the trackpad which messed with my actual input. One of them
| had a keyboard where key caps of frequently used keys (super,
| shift, ctrl) would split in two after a ~year of use; this was
| not fixed under warranty, I paid out of pocket after a year of
| ownership, another year later it happened again.
|
| After those two Dell XPS laptops, I got a MacBook Pro 2021 with
| an M1 Pro instead of getting the keyboard fixed again. No
| issues. Linux support isn't great, but at least macOS is a
| relatively competent UNIX so it's fine.
|
| I might consider another non-Mac laptop in the future. But it's
| not gonna be a Dell.
| debo_ wrote:
| I think I may have the same 2015 13" model you are
| describing. Which distro were you running out of curiosity?
| mort96 wrote:
| Mostly Arch Linux at the time, though I've had Elementary
| OS on it as well. I used to run i3 (and eventually Sway) on
| it, which worked well since I could have a keyboard-centric
| workflow and not rely o bc the trackpad.
| debo_ wrote:
| Huh. I wonder if they were both hardware issues. I've run
| arch on my laptop with no issues.
| fluidcruft wrote:
| I have had many Dells that have been great with FreeBSD and
| with Linux. You do have to do your research though.
|
| Frankly, I wouldn't expect any touchscreen to work with
| Linux. That's not a Dell issue though.
| mort96 wrote:
| Interestingly, the touch screen of the 2-in-1 worked really
| well! I often relied on the touch screen to do light web
| browsing when the trackpad was acting up.
| Fluorescence wrote:
| The XPS I bought in 2018 has a Wacom digitiser for
| touch/pen and I believe those are very well supported.
|
| A clean install of Ubuntu and the touchscreen and all pen
| features worked perfectly and never had a hiccup since.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I did briefly look into the XPS series but it seems this series
| isn't really a thing anymore? I also found a lot of comments
| describing recurring issues with the trackpad (or was it the
| keyboard? I can't remember). Basically it seemed like too much
| of a gamble.
| debo_ wrote:
| I'm not a massive fan of the hardware or anything, but most
| Dell laptops (including this premium one I linked) are tested
| to work with Ubuntu. If you're ok to use an Ubuntu-derivative
| as your distro, you should almost always have that as an
| option. Much like the Framework, it should be easily
| returnable if you have an issue.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| How is Dell's firmware security story?
| debo_ wrote:
| I can't think of many things I care less about than firmware
| security, so I am personally not sure.
| DetectDefect wrote:
| Sure, it's only a place for permanent rootkits and bootkits
| to proliferate, why care about it at all?
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I bought a few refurbished Dell laptops/desktops in recent
| years, and while older models hold fine, more recent models
| broke down quite easily within a year. Sure all of them are
| refurbished models (purchased through official website) that
| cost from $400 CAD to $800 CAD but I'm sketchy of the build
| quality of recent models.
| debo_ wrote:
| Good to know. My most recent is from 2021 and it holds up
| quite well.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| What model did you buy? Was it a new one? I'm looking for
| anything that can live up to 5+ years. I have seen all
| kinds of issues, and the most frustrating thing is, most of
| the issues are small but deal-breaking.
| chipheat wrote:
| > I read various reports of the Framework 13 having issues with
| poor battery life, fan noise, heating, etc
|
| Intriguing, I read the same but instead for the Framework 16. I
| ended up getting the AMD 7040 Framework 13 because of those
| reviews.
| starkparker wrote:
| > One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least
| some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and
| inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to
| share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and
| (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a
| (possibly) worse battery.
|
| The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand
| the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's
| considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of
| the 13.
|
| Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't
| clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac.
|
| What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the
| 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is
| arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you
| mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I literally mention the reason in the article in the
| "Configuration" section (https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-
| returning-my-framework...)...
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| What about Qualcomm's Windows ARM M1 competitor?
| wmf wrote:
| X Elite is mostly regarded as a dud.
| justarandomname wrote:
| I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with
| it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits
| on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it
| until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu.
|
| I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-
| house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if
| I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework
| (perhaps the 12")
|
| The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an
| upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap
| out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.
| thenobsta wrote:
| Same. I'm very happy with my FW13 too. It replaces the MBA for
| my purposes -- dev on linux (mostly webdev on this machine,
| have a remote machine for gpu/heavy work), web browsing,
| streaming, some very light gaming (portal 2 on steam).
|
| I'm waiting on that test too :) a few more cpu generations and
| I'll be itching to upgrade. I'm excited to for that to happen.
| linsomniac wrote:
| >A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working
|
| For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and
| always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like
| an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and
| inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no
| good alternatives.
|
| Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit
| tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two
| depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the
| back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and
| reinstalled.
|
| Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard
| in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard
| operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.
| The_President wrote:
| Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the
| various revisions and the quality is on par with the other
| laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even
| a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and
| the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these
| computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline
| CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in
| a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model
| under web browsing/audio playing loads.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than
| Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but
| inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be
| dead when I take it out
| The_President wrote:
| I shut mine down completely and haven't had the battery drain
| issue, but on "modern standby," yes these don't last very
| long. Probably 2-3% per hour on standby and worse than that
| if anything is plugged into the expansion slots.
| sillystuff wrote:
| If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC:
|
| ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during
| S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last
| couple years) AMD processors.
|
| Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the
| foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully
| supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed
| up to see what has actually landed.
| The_President wrote:
| Thank you - Good info
| deryilz wrote:
| If you're going to put it in a bag for a week, why not use
| some kind of hibernation feature?
| buckle8017 wrote:
| He bought the last likely to be compatible and oversized option.
|
| Of course he didn't like it.
| RomanPushkin wrote:
| Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you're not chasing raw
| performance.
|
| I ended up with two machines:
|
| - MacBook Air (16GB)
|
| - MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM
|
| The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The
| MinisForum is still "portable enough" and gives me real
| horsepower when I need it.
|
| I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor
| as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe's tote bag. I even
| presented a conference talk using that setup.
|
| For ~$2k total, you can buy:
|
| - a MacBook Air
|
| - a small PC + one or two portable monitors
|
| - and still have money left
|
| IMO the era of $2-3-4k "do-everything" laptops is over. I don't
| see how and why they're competitive.
| Frotag wrote:
| I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think
| it was ~1000usd).
|
| > Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the
| gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges
| are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving
| them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will
| build up in these edges over time. > There's also a practical
| problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the
| laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined
| with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop
| for dear life, you will at some point drop it.
|
| I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp
| might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different
| height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than
| intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't
| mind the lines / colors.
|
| Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or
| accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping
| the corner with the spacer all the time.
|
| > The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not
| great either.
|
| Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the
| keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking
| something.
|
| > The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
|
| I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600)
| with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty
| impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the
| OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as
| the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously)
| had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images.
|
| > I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems
| to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage
| thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of
| battery per charge for average programming usage.
|
| Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that
| end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours
| browsing the web / watching youtube.
|
| > For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the
| Framework 16 feels more like a EUR1200-EUR1500 laptop at best and
| certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience.
|
| Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But
| I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably)
| low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot
| more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is
| nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a
| new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with
| V) have amazing battery life._
|
| Framework seems to offer the "H" variants only, though. Looking
| at specs, the "V" variants appear much lower performance and
| less capable. (Maybe a good trade off, but... YMMV.)
| eigenspace wrote:
| The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due
| to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and
| absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a
| direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU.
| Thunderbolt is just too slow.
|
| Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way
| faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU
| than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with
| my laptop without a massive performance loss.
| could-of wrote:
| > A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working,
| specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get
| it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not
| consistent.
|
| I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed
| to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard
| ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to
| unscrew is the bottom cover.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| I may be wrong here but IIRC at least with the 7th generation
| you have to disassemble the whole thing to get to the keyboard.
| I'll have to take a look though, because if it's really that
| simple then I may be able to make my life a bit easier. Thanks
| for the suggestion :)
| juancn wrote:
| The battery life doesn't appear to be all that better than
| conventional laptops when running Linux. This isn't entirely
| surprising because of a lot of the battery improvements on macOS
| are the result of the software and hardware integration, not just
| the hardware
|
| The issue is the kernel here, not just the hardware. Linux power
| management is meh.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Variety is great, but idk why anyone would buy anything other
| than MacBook for programming or media work in the age of Apple
| Silicon. Unless they specifically need CUDA or a particular
| version of Linux or some Windows features, or actually want to
| tinker with/ tweak the computer continuously.
| sdwr wrote:
| It's true, they're unbeatable as consumer products now,
| especially after Intel dropped the ball so hard
| grigio wrote:
| Thanks for review, the framework is a great idea in theory but in
| practise is still raw
| oldestofsports wrote:
| Why would an OLED display not make sense in a low light
| livingroom situation? I really don't understand it, what is the
| issue in this specific scenario?
| ziml77 wrote:
| I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of
| the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I
| get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those
| areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried.
|
| Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the
| system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the
| spin-up was definitely valid the times when I checked because the
| device was extremely hot, I think from charging.
|
| Now the laptop is being used as a server. Ended up being good for
| Jellyfin because I can have the GPU handle transcoding and
| tonemapping of 4K HDR movies.
| systemtest wrote:
| Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display,
| trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It
| would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your
| machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad
| is so easy.
|
| Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is EUR20 but they could
| offer a EUR150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro
| for people who value sound.
| ziml77 wrote:
| They should be able to offer a better trackpad module (and
| I've been hoping that they eventually do). The speakers seem
| like a harder problem to solve. The acoustic engineering that
| goes into designing a good speaker involves every element
| that can interact with the sound waves, not just the driver
| itself.
| duped wrote:
| The problem is you need correction EQ built into to the
| drivers tuned to the enclosure (in addition to loudspeakers
| that are also designed accounting for their directionality,
| position, and the volume of the enclosure).
| shantara wrote:
| It's not only a matter of having better hardware (though it
| certainly helps a lot). For example, Apple does a lot of
| software tuning and tweaking to make the Macbook speakers
| sound as good as they do. And it's been fascinating to read
| the extent of work Asahi Linux had to do to recreate the
| software portion of Macbook's audio stack.
|
| https://asahilinux.org/docs/sw/audio-userspace/
| https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio
| RickyLahey wrote:
| my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro,
| disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in
| the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+
| battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely
| notice that you're on mac os.
|
| It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Also install the GNU coreutils (or I guess uutils). If you're
| begrudgingly using macOS then you're going to hate the
| differences between BSD and GNU utilities.
| realusername wrote:
| Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software
| stack.
|
| Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but
| at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder
| really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install
| software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.
| Hackbraten wrote:
| > and homebrew is in the same category as npm.
|
| Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository
| maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers.
|
| NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload
| whatever they want.
| grimblee wrote:
| I hate the fact the keyboard is non-standard, the mental hoop
| to jump between my normal keyboard on my desktop and the
| macbook pro one is a no-go.
|
| I told my job I prefered an old lenovo thinkpad than this dumb,
| vendor-locked, thing.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Considering this customer's gripes, I might suggest the Lenovo
| Chromebook Plus 14. It's even lighter than their X1 Carbon, has
| great battery life, is silent, and has a spectacular display.
| YegoBear wrote:
| So basically the same price as an already decently upgradable
| Thinkpad P1 G8 on sale, but with a terrible screen and janky
| chassis. Plus it costs about the same to upgrade as getting a new
| machine, but then you no longer have the ability to throw Linux
| on the old one and donate it to a school or less fortune person.
| Tough sell.
| cdev_gl wrote:
| I can't speak to the rest of the text or the laptops themselves,
| but as someone who works with color reproducibility in video and
| print, those photos comparing colors of two different screens are
| worse than useless.
|
| Uncalibrated screens photographed at different angles in
| different lighting conditions are not a valid basis for
| comparison. If you want properly calibrated displays, you need to
| purchase hardware (datacolor makes one such device) and calibrate
| them.
|
| Even "factory-calibrated" monitors will benefit from this,
| because the quality of that calibration varies widely and your
| color reproduction is going to vary based on ambient lighting
| conditions etc.
| Groxx wrote:
| I can add anecdata for the factory profile being very over-red
| - it's quite obvious out of the box. Not as bad as many Samsung
| OLED phones you see in stores (typically set to some crazy
| "enhanced" mode), but it's certainly closer to them than a
| calibrated screen.
|
| One thing that has bugged me for a while though: why isn't it
| possible to make my own color profile by hand? Everything seems
| to imply that you can only get a profile definition file from a
| calibration device, and I don't have one... but I can eyeball
| it significantly better than the default profile. Is there
| something software out there that will let me adjust my curves,
| like the OS already does with night-mode color balance changes?
| GranPC wrote:
| I too would be interested in such a tool. I've had some luck
| finding close-enough ICC profiles, but it would be great to
| dial it in.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| The photos are just meant to illustrate the difference to the
| reader, not to be anything scientific. Of course manual
| calibration is ideal, but having a somewhat sensible default
| calibration isn't much to ask for and is in fact something many
| other laptops do just fine.
| rewgs wrote:
| Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really
| puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is
| right now.
|
| Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run
| macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like
| the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I
| don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with
| Hyprland.
|
| PC laptop hardware is just shit in comparison. Like the author,
| my X1 Carbon (Gen 11) has keys that intermittently fail, and the
| cooling is pretty bad (I actually love the OLED display, though,
| and don't really understand the author's concerns here).
|
| I haven't found any non-Mac laptops that beat the X1 Carbon line,
| though (relatively low bar that it is). Frameworks are cool if
| you are fine with the tradeoffs, but personally I'm just not -- I
| much prefer to tinker with desktops/servers, and am totally fine
| with laptops being a physically-closed "appliance," as long as
| that results in great battery life, cooling, and adequate
| performance (I can always offload heavy tasks to my desktop if
| need be).
|
| Which is all to say: what I want is Mac equivalent hardware that
| can reliably run Linux.
|
| For now, I've landed on using my extremely beefy Arch desktop
| when at home, and my M1 MacBook Air (which is still running great
| 5 years on) when mobile. Even accepting that I'll be using an
| Apple device when mobile, though, there's still room for
| improvement in this setup: I'd love LTE support (no, a hot spot
| isn't a good replacement), a nano-texture display (which appears
| to be locked to the MacBook Pro line), and either an even smaller
| footprint (like the old 12-inch MacBook) or a little bit of
| active cooling to offset the performance regressions in macOS. An
| iPad might make sense, but I own one and frankly hate it due to
| OS limitations, such as only a single stream of audio at a time
| (which causes lots of bugs -- watching a YouTube video while
| scrolling Reddit will cause the YouTube video to pause whenever
| you scroll past a video on Reddit, even if it's muted), a lack of
| terminal, etc. I want a "real" OS, so tablets are out of the
| question entirely.
|
| I don't understand why absolutely zero PC manufacturers have even
| tried to take on Apple's laptop offerings. Sure, Apple Silicon is
| great, but Intel and AMD _have_ done an admirable job at
| increasing battery efficiency since its release; it 's not the
| only component that makes Mac laptops so great. I'm sure these
| manufacturers know what they're doing in this regard and have
| decided it doesn't make business sense to take on Apple. But man,
| I just wish someone would at least _try_.
| ruralfam wrote:
| 1000% agree with this. Been using Macs for decades, but now
| prefer Linux. But Mac hardware is just so much better. Funny
| note: Sorta just for fun I bought an old Mac Mini ($25) and
| installed Mac, Windows, and Linux Mint on it. Fun device that
| is actually pretty useful with a KVM letting me use it
| seamlessly with my main Mac (also providing a shared external
| drive). Fingers crossed that the next leader at Apple after Tim
| has a Nadella-like moment deciding that Linux can be a friend
| not a foe.
| neogodless wrote:
| I don't know how many laptops people own to rule out every
| possible model. My own experience is owning several various
| versions of Lenovo Legion for gaming and work, and currently an
| Acer Nitro 16.
|
| None of them have given me a single issue.
|
| Great screens, great keyboards, great performance, easy to
| upgrade the SSD or RAM. Short of really intense gaming, the
| fans aren't audible.
|
| And they are all around $1000-1200 USD. All with AMD CPUs and
| Nvidia GPUs. Doesn't seem like they are unicorns.
| turtletontine wrote:
| Framework 16 owner here, had mine for a year and a half. While
| most of this post is also true in my experience, I just don't
| care. These are largely small cosmetic nitpicks that you need to
| look for to notice. The only complaints here that I really share
| are the jankiness of the spacers (a little jarring at first, but
| now I'm used to it), and the speakers really are noticeably worse
| than any of my other devices. So? I don't watch movies on it, or
| listen to music, that's what I have a TV and headphones for.
|
| Seems inarguable that you can get a much more "premium" laptop
| for about the same cost. But I didn't buy a framework for a
| "premium" feel... I was hoping to buy the last laptop I'll ever
| need. And so far I'm happy with the result!
|
| PS: the battery life is by far the best of any laptop I've owned.
| Maybe that just shows that my previous ones were junk, but I'm
| quite happy with it
|
| PPS: I should note my employer was willing to buy it for me, so
| price was much less of a concern. Not everyone is so lucky ofc
| ta9000 wrote:
| Or just buy a MBP and use MacOS and not worry about any of these
| problems. I use Linux for everything but my laptop, but I'm not
| about to deal with a subpar experience when decent laptops are
| already so expensive.
| chrsw wrote:
| I'm still chugging along on a Dell XPS Developer Edition that
| came with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. It's not as repairable as a
| Framework but it's been very reliable.
|
| If I had to get a new laptop for personal use today I'd probably
| go for an X1 Carbon. Those seem to have very good luck with Linux
| even without OEM installs.
| grimblee wrote:
| Tbh I just bought a 250EUR refurb laptop, it has 14k cpu
| benchmark and 16gb ram, 256gb ssd.
|
| Honestly do you need more to do terminal emulation? No, you
| don't.
|
| Ok I won't play bg3 on this but that's good, it means I'll be
| productive !
| endorphine wrote:
| I was in a similar situation to OP: my Carbon X1 Gen 8 keys,
| notably `/` and some arrows keys, stopped functioning. Sometimes
| they did, but it was very erratic.
|
| Luckily, when I replaced the battery (got a lot from iFixit) and
| tightened all other screws, the keys magically started working
| again.
|
| Saved me quite a few dollars.
| MassPikeMike wrote:
| OP wrote:
|
| "My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few
| months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided
| it was time to look for a replacement."
|
| Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the
| cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a
| small expense compared to a whole new laptop.
|
| Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard
| might be slightly challenging for an amateur. iFixit calls the
| keyboard replacement "moderate" in difficulty [1] taking about an
| hour with a new keyboard running about a hundred bucks. But it
| would be a simple job for a repair shop. So it seems hard to
| justify the expense of a whole new one rather than just the new
| part.
|
| Of course, sometimes you just want a new laptop, because the bike
| analogy breaks down a little: unlike bikes, newer ones are
| inherently faster.
|
| [1]
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+G...
| selkin wrote:
| Your analogy won't hold scrutiny with a competitive cyclist:
| newer bikes are also faster given the same rider, even if not
| as meaningfully as a new CPU.
|
| And modern bikes do make with the need for cable replacement or
| breakage (hydro lines and electric shifting, while more
| expensive to service, also require much less of it).
| izacus wrote:
| Life tip: Noone appreciates and there's no utility in
| nitpicking analogies. They're never the actual point of the
| message and it's incredibly rude and socially inept to lock
| onto a side quest like that.
| selkin wrote:
| idk, the OP is all about the author misunderstanding what
| they bought. Hence a comment about bikes not understanding
| bikes deserves just as much scrutiny.
|
| My own life tip: there are plenty of good analogies, so no
| need to choose use an example you are not familiar with.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| With this comment you completely validate izacus (shaky)
| judgement call: when you write "a comment about bikes not
| understanding bikes" you are clearly more interested in
| being rude than pointing out a flaw in the analogy.
|
| We all see that OP _does_ understand bikes in the general
| sense, indeed the fact you are nitpicking instead of
| trying to explain one of the many _fundamental
| difference_ means you think that as well.
| jfengel wrote:
| To me, it suggests that analogies aren't as useful as we'd
| like them to be. Either the analogy is perfect, in which
| case nothing is any simpler, or it's imperfect, in which
| case you're now distracted by the differences.
|
| They're not totally without value but I find that it's
| generally better to avoid a analogies. Look for some other
| route to make the point.
| boneitis wrote:
| Generation 7. I realize you acknowledged the hardware age, but
| it's really the difference in my own workflows and experience.
|
| I'm still on a Gen 8 i7 (with 40 GB RAM, to boot) T480s. I take
| pretty good care of my machine, so it's still in superb
| physical shape.
|
| But, given today's massive webapps and video calls while having
| my workspace programs open, I'm in Hell. A failing keyboard
| would probably push me to repurpose the current machine and
| upgrade as well (and still replace the keyboard for kicks).
|
| If I wasn't strapped for cash, I would have bought an AMD
| Framework eons ago.
| nottorp wrote:
| > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low
| light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the
| evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.
|
| Huh? I thought OLED would make a lot of sense with a pure black
| background theme in your IDE. Less light in your eyes?
| Groxx wrote:
| I'm quite happy with mine, and like the keyboard in general
| though I can see why a coming from a decent Thinkpad would feel
| like a downgrade. I like it a lot better than the "butterfly"
| keyboards Apple insisted on, however, and have used quite a few
| more-expensive laptops with much worse keyboards. And I have
| gotten WAY more use out of the swappable ports than I expected,
| that's a killer feature imo.
|
| The price is a "put your money where your mouth is" purchase for
| me on repairability - it's absolutely not competitive with a
| same-priced machine. But it's not too crazy if you upgrade or
| replace damaged parts, the significantly lower costs there add up
| _extremely_ quickly.
|
| The speakers though. Holy cow. They're truly awful and I think
| they drag down the entire product - put them over 50% and they
| blow out the sound and distort _extremely_ badly. They really
| need to change them, I 'd happily pay a premium to get something
| more usable.
| desireco42 wrote:
| I have the similar ThinkPad like the author, except Gen 3, I7,
| 16Gb. Have Omarchy on it, works like a charm, even camera is not
| bad. Battery works but I can plug it in the same dock my macbook
| is (two usb-c dock).
|
| While you can change keyboard or battery on your Thinkpad, they
| are cheap enough, around $500 that you can just get a new one. I
| get why he wanted Framework, they say 13" are much better and
| more useful deal then 16".
|
| I wish Framework 12" is better, but it is not. Maybe Apple can
| dazzle us at this form factor.
| INTPenis wrote:
| As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first
| framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I
| realized that this is the laptop for me.
|
| I wish I had realized it earlier.
|
| But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually
| designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box
| like battery and wifi.
|
| Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was
| still hit or miss, especially with new releases, and you always
| felt like you were breaking warranty somehow.
|
| The entire experience buying a Framework, and using it, has been
| amazing. I'm hooked.
| tomComb wrote:
| Yes, that does sound good, but if someone wants an inexpensive
| laptop that is also "actually designed for Linux", they should
| keep in mind Chromebooks. I don't think of these as competitors
| to the framework, but as a lower end alternative that is
| usually overlooked.
| paulbgd wrote:
| kinda similar experience with my thinkpad t14s gen 2 amd (what
| a name.) I like framework's philosophy, but there's so many
| refurbished business laptops out there (many unused) that I
| like upgrading every few years to a 3-4 yr old laptop.
|
| Getting a laptop that's linux certified has been better than I
| thought, things like sleep and power management "Just Work"
| whereas on other laptops I'd spend more time configuring TLP or
| even just hibernating every time because I couldn't get a good
| sleep experience. Hope this inspires the other manufacturers to
| work on getting this working out of the box.
| InTheArena wrote:
| I ordered a framework desktop and got it "by accident" - in that
| I forgot that I had put down a deposit on a fully maxed out Ai
| MAX395+. After a few days of using it, I decided to keep it, and
| given how incredibly expensive 8tb NVMe drives and DDR5-8000 has
| beocme since then (even if you could get DDR-8000 on desktop form
| factor) - I don't regret that decision at all. It's a great
| little box - and AI is getting closer to colser to being a good
| experience.
|
| That said, I have run into a set of frustrations with it: 1) The
| PCIEx is completely useless on the board. Forget about room for
| the slot - it's not exposed, there isn't enough exposure inside
| of the case. This is a real miss - It seems perfect for a
| occulink port or another USB4 port. 2) USB4 + PCIe tunneling was
| a mess. Seems to be working better now. 3) There are some real
| thermal envelopes that are resulting in similar systems with the
| exact same architecture running 10% faster then this box. That's
| a big bummer - apparently it's tunable in their bios, but
| framework really limits the bios settings. 4) Randomly right now,
| the latest kernel on Ubuntu seems to freeze on boot. No idea why
| - I can move to the older .5 kernel, and it;s working.
|
| All that said, for what it offers - Framework offers a lot. I
| really honestly believe that either Mac or Framework is the way
| to go if you need significant compute power on the desktop.
| summa_tech wrote:
| I feel ya on the PCIe slot. And the on-board NICs are sub-par
| Realtek garbage, unacceptable both on features and quality.
| However, you can fit a small SFP+ card inside if you (a) cut
| out a correctly shaped hole in your case, and (b) turn the fan
| on at 40% instead of letting it turn off. The card will sit at
| a small angle but work fine, and with some 3D printing I even
| got a mounting bracket in to keep it stable. A lower profile
| connector, like USB 4, might fit outright.
| InTheArena wrote:
| Yeah, I was thinking of running a Occulink connector to the
| side of the case, the problem is that this would need a
| riser, and I don't think that occulink - even with a
| redriver, would do well with two additional physical
| connectors.
|
| On the 5GB realtek - i think their 5G is far better then
| their 1g or 2.5g devices where.
| mfer wrote:
| I bought an early framework 13. It cost a little more. I've since
| upgraded the main board to get a faster/newer experience. The
| overall cost has been less than 2 laptops.
|
| Some of this depends if you're playing the long game
| trueismywork wrote:
| > The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen
| scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not
| seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying
| around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't
| feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't
| a problem with the X1.
|
| The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and
| compares it to x1 carbon.
|
| Modular ports
|
| > Like the keyboard area the design is a bit janky though, with
| visible lines/space between the adapters and the case, though
| this at least is something you won't notice unless you're
| explicitly looking for it.
|
| Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines
| for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.
|
| The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what
| framework provides.
| kelnos wrote:
| Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I
| don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're
| making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable,
| and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with
| a desktop.
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| > The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what
| framework provides.
|
| Indeed, I just pressed a "Buy now" button without a moment's
| thought. Clearly the fault is all mine.
| emeril wrote:
| can't he just replace the keyboard? I'd imagine that won't be too
| hard?
| YorickPeterse wrote:
| Did you miss the following parts? Given my
| past experiences with X1 Carbon laptops breaking outside of
| warranty and the frustration that comes with replacing their
| components, I decided it was time to look for a replacement.
| [...] There are also some other issues with the X1 line
| in general, such as poor CPU cooling and the absolute nightmare
| that is opening them up to replace parts or clean them
| properly.
|
| Maintaining an X1 is certainly possible, but it's incredibly
| frustrating and based on my past experiences with this series I
| strongly suspect other components will also fail in the near
| future.
| schmuckonwheels wrote:
| Framework 16 has a 6 port maximum.
|
| 6.
|
| That means if you want:
|
| - HDMI
|
| - Ethernet (a must if you're doing real work)
|
| - an audio jack (why is this even an option?)
|
| - SD reader
|
| - USB-A port
|
| You are allowed (1) USB-C port. This is in a > $2200 laptop.
|
| $200 netbooks had all this (minus the Ethernet port) standard 10
| years ago.
|
| This is unacceptable. An artificial limit imposed by the
| mechanicals of the inefficiently large port modules - an idea
| that should have never left a whiteboard, let alone made it into
| a production laptop.
|
| On the bright side you are forced into configuring them as all
| USB-C, you can reuse the man purse you used to carry all your
| dongles from an earlier generation Macbook.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low
| light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the
| evening, OLED just doesn't make sense.
|
| What? Low light is ideal for OLED compared to most LCDs where in
| low light contrast is poor due to bleed-through on the black
| areas via the backlight. The problem here isn't the laptop, it's
| between the keyboard and chair.
|
| > I narrowed it down to two options: Buy a refurbished M1 or M2
| Macbook and run Asahi Linux Buy a Framework
|
| ...or stop being a dogmatic baby about your OS and run MacOS,
| which is infinitely better than Linux as a desktop OS?
|
| > I looked at some other brands but it appears that in 2025
| there's just aren't many good options for Linux users
|
| A market of less than 1% has terrible options? *gasp*
|
| The only people still using Linux on desktop are people who think
| that *twenty five years* into "the year of the linux desktop"
| this will be the year that Linux doesn't stop being the worst
| option for a desktop OS.
|
| If 2/3rds of the current linux distros hung up the hat and went
| to go help with other distros, there _might_ actually be progress
| on this front - but the nerds are too interested in fighting over
| asinine personal preference type things nobody else cares about,
| to actually make a distro that works properly and reliably. The
| Linux world is so hopelessly fragmented and there's thousands of
| people doing the same work as at least 6 other people all because
| they think their particular way of installing a linux package is
| better or their file layout is best.
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