[HN Gopher] Will West Coast Jazz Get Some Respect?
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Will West Coast Jazz Get Some Respect?
Author : paulpauper
Score : 61 points
Date : 2025-12-06 21:06 UTC (7 days ago)
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| alephnerd wrote:
| Do ya like jazz? [0]
|
| [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLthw2YWb4s
| onraglanroad wrote:
| Betteridge's law of headlines.
| omosubi wrote:
| I grew up playing a lot of jazz in the late 2000s and there was
| always a strict canon - big band was seen as kind of cutesy and
| not worth putting much effort into while the Charlie Parker,
| Dizzy Gillespie, Coltrane, Davis, Hancock, Shorter and a few
| others were the "real" musicians. But the internet was in its
| infancy at the time and YouTube/spotify started showing things
| that I had never heard of like a bunch of Japanese jazz
| musicians, so I always wonder what musicians coming up today see
| as "the canon". Is it still mostly the names I mentioned or does
| it include a lot more?
|
| On a separate note, I always saw Chet baker and Gerry mulligan as
| "real" musicians but was taught early on that Brubeck was "staid"
| and boring. After judging it myself I guess you could say his
| soloing was a little underwhelming but he was incredibly creative
| in a way that a lot of the "serious" musicians weren't. Jazz
| people can be such losers sometimes
| mfro wrote:
| I think jazz taste has diversified a lot in the last decade and
| we aren't seeing a canon outside of cliques. I know myself and
| other younger folks listen to the artists you listed, I know
| several who grew up playing in a marching band and enjoy big
| band, myself I listen to nearly anything.
| jancsika wrote:
| > his soloing was a little underwhelming
|
| I mean, it is true that a lot of his solos get busier and
| bangier until he's hammering out polyrhythms at the end. I just
| take it as part of the ride when listening to Brubeck.
|
| But I _really_ don 't want to listen to other jazz artists
| emulate that, especially knowing how little chance there is
| that they'll have the same creativity and sense of rhythm that
| Brubeck had. (Edit: based on the _experience_ of hearing the
| banging without the creativity /rhythm-- it's not fun.)
| omosubi wrote:
| Yeah I mean his solos compared to his melodies/song
| structures or even the other soloists on each song.
|
| But also compared to other prominent pianists of the time
| like Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, etc
| seedlessmike wrote:
| Brubeck suffered a serious spinal injury swimming in Hawaii
| which resulted in chronic hand pain, depriving him of some
| dexterity. He may have been a fluent and swinging improviser
| before that, I don't know. It all worked out, his quartet had
| a unique style and Desmond was such a great player and
| improviser.
| seedlessmike wrote:
| The core repertoire hasn't really changed but the boundaries
| get further and further out. It's like "classical" music.
| Pianists must learn the 2 part inventions, they're an essential
| part of the tradition.
|
| Big band is hard to learn from. The large ensembles like
| Basie's and Duke's have persisted in popularity, but classic
| "big band" are very much of their time.
|
| The bebop guys will always occupy the position in jazz that
| Bach occupies in "classical". They're foundational musicians in
| a continuous tradition and one learns a lot about the music by
| studying them.
|
| By "canon" do you mean respected musicians? Or do you mean that
| PLUS players whose work is considered essential to learning how
| to play the music? The answers will be different. Keith Jarrett
| is great and esteemed but unless you want to sound like Keith
| Jarrett, he's not essential to study.
| analog31 wrote:
| I've been playing jazz as a bassist for nearly 50 years,
| including with several big-band groups. Today my main band is a
| big-band, though I also play with a number of smaller groups.
|
| Finding repertoire is a perennial challenge. Adding new
| material takes more effort than just a quick agreement on the
| bandstand and flipping through the fake books. A lot of
| material is unpublished, out of print, surreptitiously Xeroxed,
| etc. But there's a lot of exciting material spanning an entire
| century.
|
| And the west coast is well represented.
|
| Of course big-band is unique in that it involves improv soloing
| but is much more about the arrangements, especially the newer
| stuff. It's like playing chamber music in that way, but of
| course people still love chamber music. It's never hard to fill
| an empty seat in our band.
| KolibriFly wrote:
| For a music built on curiosity and openness, it's surprisingly
| good at gatekeeping
| analog31 wrote:
| As I mentioned in an adjacent post, I've been playing jazz
| for nearly 50 years, and have not experienced gatekeeping,
| except on rare occasion from mediocre players. I've played
| with pro's, academics, and amateurs. The overwhelmingly
| predominant attitude is simply love of music and an interest
| in a challenge.
|
| Come to the Midwest.
| ilamont wrote:
| > I grew up playing a lot of jazz in the late 2000s and there
| was always a strict canon - big band was seen as kind of cutesy
| and not worth putting much effort into
|
| Rock used to be this way too. It's hard to believe now, but
| there was a real wall between punk and metal in the mid 1980s.
|
| In punk circles grudging respect was given to Motorhead and a
| few thrash acts but everyone else was seen as hair-obsessed
| posers or dinosaurs. Neither camp would admit to liking
| anything "mainstream."
|
| 20 years later Chris Cornell is covering Billie Jean
| (https://youtu.be/R0uWF-37DAM?si=V3Pqtq-3GDHqxJBd) and all
| kinds of unusual collaborations were kicking off. It was
| frankly refreshing.
| kryogen1c wrote:
| >Jazz people can be such losers sometimes
|
| This has never occurred to me before, but I don't think ive
| ever met a jazz lover I liked.
|
| This surprises me. Ill think about this a bit, perhaps a
| cognitive psychological rabbit hole is in order.
| jpster wrote:
| The idea that Chet Baker and some of the others named are not
| "serious jazz" is too ludicrous to take.
| alonsonic wrote:
| Baker has one of the best movie adaptations, has been
| documented and reissued at nauseum and has worldwide acclaim
| and recognition. Sounds like mostly an inner-circle type of
| perspective.
| Libidinalecon wrote:
| Unknown nobodies like Dave Brubeck.
| KolibriFly wrote:
| Jazz has always been bigger than one aesthetic or one coast, no
| matter how much some people want to police it
| BewareTheYiga wrote:
| When I think of west coast jazz, I think of Tom Scott and I was
| surprised to not see him in this article.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| Glad to see Vince Guaraldi prominently mentioned here. Like the
| author, I got into Guaraldi via the Peanuts music, then found I
| loved the rest of his stuff as well.
|
| I think Guaraldi is almost like a jazz version of Erik Satie,
| who's been discussed here a few times. His music seems very
| simple, almost simplistic, but his taste and feel are superb.
| It's just really good and easy to listen to, which unfortunately
| means it gets dismissed as "easy listening".
| santoshalper wrote:
| Using "easy listening" as a pejorative has always baffled me.
| Why does music need to be difficult?
| mesrik wrote:
| >Using "easy listening" as a pejorative has always baffled
| me. Why does music need to be difficult?
|
| Yes, I agree with you, it shouldn't and doesn't need to be.
|
| But some things like music be it Jazz or something else isn't
| always just matter of listening but way of self
| establishment, way of life living or pursuing life, way how
| they seeing themselves and communicate themselves to others.
| I'm not in to this or studying this or anything else, but
| it's known behaviour model and you find studies if you like
| to read about it more.
|
| Right, some Jazz aficionados tend to be like hipsters. Who
| despise and keep unorthodox anything but their likes would
| grok. A way of self establishment and having reason to keep
| themselves different. At least a bit better than others. I'm
| not claiming everybody are, but I certainly have met few of
| those quick to classify someone things they like.
|
| I find my self like more West Coast Jazz bands and artists
| performances older I get. And if I'm not completely wrong it
| might be a more common trend their share has increased over
| the past ten or so years playing in radio stations too at
| least where I live.
| aczerepinski wrote:
| Easy listening implies that there's not much of anything
| there. Nothing surprising or unique about the song or the
| performance. No insightful message and nothing worth
| reflecting on after.
|
| I don't think the alternative is "difficult" for its own
| sake. Rather, those who would use the term as a pejorative
| are likely seeking new experiences and viewpoints in their
| music and get bored by same old diatonic melodies over plain
| inoffensive grooves. Novelty is a source of dopamine for
| some.
|
| A lot of jazz music is difficult to the untrained ear, and I
| have distinct memories of hearing albums that I now feel are
| too conservative but in my youth thought they were too
| chaotic. I now understand that it was never difficult from
| the performer's perspective - just high level musicians
| playing the music they hear. I wish everyone could hear jazz
| just once through the ears of a jazz musician.
| analog31 wrote:
| I think that playing any kind of live music requires a bit of
| a two-way accommodation between the needs of the audience and
| of the musicians. I don't think it needs to be difficult _per
| se_ , but there needs to be something in it for the
| musicians.
|
| This might sound self centered, which is a frequent
| stereotype leveled against jazz musicians, but on the other
| hand, why bother? There are other things we could be doing
| with our time. And I don't think that playing "difficult"
| music is incompatible with delivering a high quality
| performance, which is always my mission.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| I think it's worth distinguishing "difficult to perform"
| and "difficult to listen to". Something like hard rock or
| metal with lots of flashy solos can be technically
| impressive, but it's not difficult to "get" -- when done
| properly it just gets you in the gut.
|
| The accusation usually levelled at cutting-edge jazz
| (fairly or unfairly) is that it's so niche that it _is_
| difficult to get; that it's left behind any pretence at
| being popular music. Many listeners would even go further
| and sneer "they're just playing notes at random!" or
| "you're just pretending to like it!"
|
| I do wonder whether good-sounding, easy-to-get music is
| purely a matter of fashion (being just different enough to
| be interesting, but conventional enough to be accessible),
| or if to some degree there's another axis of
| skill/difficulty in great pop music, of making it catchy
| and universal.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| IME it's basically synonymous with "muzak" and "smooth jazz",
| the kind of bland and mediocre background atmosphere
| inflicted on mall shoppers (often substituted with the same
| handful of mindless holiday tunes this time of year).
| Nifty3929 wrote:
| If it's not painful it's not good. If you're enjoying it
| you're doing it wrong.
| atan2 wrote:
| "The Latin Side of Vince Guaraldi" is my favorite jazz album
| cover.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The article doesn't even gesture at the reason why West Coast is
| disfavored by some: it's the white flavor. A lot of people feel
| that the White clique of West Coast jazz capitalized on the
| popularity of the genre without really contributing much to it.
| It was the safe, commercial style at the time.
|
| Note that this isn't my personal take. I love Art Pepper. I can
| tolerate some Brubeck. But I admit there was plenty of slop in
| the record stores, too.
| dfedbeef wrote:
| This happens pretty frequently in music.
| dfedbeef wrote:
| It's not always just white people now, at least. Rich kids of
| all races can take over a genre
| analog31 wrote:
| Gioia even touches on this in some of his writing. One factor
| that's often forgotten is that Black musicians often couldn't
| fully capitalize on their own music, or compete effectively,
| because of Jim Crow. There was a lot of resentment as a result.
| ZebusJesus wrote:
| Agreed there has always been good jazz on the West coast, good
| article. Seattle has had great jazz scene for a long time.
|
| https://www.kuow.org/stories/jazz-has-a-storied-past-in-seat...
|
| Ray Charles, Quincy Jones, Kenny G all honed skills on the West
| coast.
| busterarm wrote:
| It's not just west coast jazz. Music journalists snub their nose
| at anything that doesn't have the "right pedigree". If it doesn't
| fit their narrative for what jazz should be, it might as well not
| exist.
|
| That included decades of Japanese jazz musicians, conservatory-
| trained session wizards without a hard-luck backstory like
| Michael Brecker, etc.
|
| As much as modern music sharing/streaming has its downsides, the
| best thing it ever did was make everything discoverable and make
| the opinions of gatekeeping assholes irrelevant.
|
| You don't need respect. Respect doesn't even pay the bills. You
| just need listeners and a way to sell to them.
| KolibriFly wrote:
| What's sad is how much of that judgment hardened into history
| adfm wrote:
| The etymology of the word "Jazz" originates on the west coast and
| migrates east to meet up with the new music as musicians emigrate
| north to Chicago and New York audiences. Jazz is truly
| improvisational and very much American in origin.
|
| https://archive.org/details/howirishinvented0000cass
| culi wrote:
| Jazz, Rock, Gospel, Blues, Funk, R&B, Disco, Hip Hop, and even
| House all originated in Black America. Queer spaces in America
| also were also crucial in the development of House, Disco, and
| even Hip Hop
| adfm wrote:
| Punk, too!
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