[HN Gopher] UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by a...
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       UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16
        
       Author : nvarsj
       Score  : 163 points
       Date   : 2025-12-11 20:32 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (alecmuffett.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (alecmuffett.com)
        
       | richwater wrote:
       | EU countries seem to be obsessed with infringing upon their
       | citizens privacy
        
         | jonathanstrange wrote:
         | The UK is not an EU country.
        
           | burningChrome wrote:
           | But would you agree going into people's houses and arresting
           | them for mean tweets would be infringing on their civil
           | liberties just a little bit?
        
             | jonathanstrange wrote:
             | Of course, I agree. The UK has nothing to do with the EU,
             | though.
        
             | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
             | Mean tweets - yes.
             | 
             | Very obvious incitement to violence - no.
        
         | pavel_lishin wrote:
         | I don't think this is limited to the EU.
        
         | Tor3 wrote:
         | EU? Brexit, remember?
         | 
         | When that's said, there are forces in the EU as well which try
         | stunts like this, kind of, but in the EU there are at least
         | lots of countries and lots of opposing voices. In the UK the
         | situation is different.
        
         | g947o wrote:
         | Good news, potentially coming to US soon as well:
         | https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/11/lawmakers-want-ban-vpn...
        
           | stronglikedan wrote:
           | As soon as one country gets away with it, most will follow
           | suit.
        
         | blitzar wrote:
         | The UK left because the EU was not "thinking of the children"
        
       | outside1234 wrote:
       | Is there actually a massive problem that they are trying to solve
       | with this?
        
         | postepowanieadm wrote:
         | Extremism.
        
         | abroszka33 wrote:
         | It's usually the children's safety, porn, piracy or protection
         | from some foreign enemy. But does it really matter?
        
         | IshKebab wrote:
         | Yes, their previous dumb law doesn't work because there are
         | easy free VPNs available (e.g. Proton).
        
         | Havoc wrote:
         | Yes. The problem is the pseudo anonymous internet makes it
         | harder to control the population :/
        
         | lunar_rover wrote:
         | Maybe yes but the ulterior motive behind these "solutions" is
         | pretty obvious. Rip anonymity from the internet, one step
         | forward towards Telescreens.
        
         | gorgoiler wrote:
         | Yes: somewhat cynically, they want their democratically elected
         | affiliate party to remain in government (or they just enjoy
         | popular support themselves) and so when the majority of people
         | think _protectin the childrun_ is good, you should demonstrate
         | your purity spiraling by proposing and going along with
         | anything that supports such an aim. You'd want to vote for
         | that, right? I mean, the kids, right?!
        
         | stronglikedan wrote:
         | Yes, they don't have enough power yet, and all governments
         | currently have the same problem so I expect to see much more of
         | this nonsense.
        
         | encom wrote:
         | People are saying mean things on Twitter, or even disagreeing
         | with government-approved opinions! They're making 12000 speech
         | arrests per year, but there's still far too many slipping
         | through the cracks.
        
       | 31337Logic wrote:
       | "Attempt", being the key word here. :-/
        
       | Bender wrote:
       | Consider instead setting a slightly more realistic goal, like 6
       | or 7.
        
       | ninalanyon wrote:
       | I've been waiting for this for some time. It's an obvious
       | loophole in the current rules.
       | 
       | So how long will we have to wait before it dawns on them that
       | VPNs are also used to circumvent IP address blocks in the UK, and
       | other countries of course.
        
       | impure-aqua wrote:
       | Requiring me to upload my ID to invoke ssh with the -D flag
       | should certainly be a top legislative priority of the United
       | Kingdom
        
         | Etheryte wrote:
         | Gotta be of age to get some -D.
        
           | RobRivera wrote:
           | Hearty kek
        
         | lijok wrote:
         | Pretty sure you can install kali and have a hundred flags that
         | have been legislated against in most countries, out of the box.
         | Not a great argument.
        
       | Beestie wrote:
       | So lemme guess - in order to prove one's age, one needs to obtain
       | a digital ID and use said ID to gain access to the internet
       | thereby creating a perfect system to monitor one's internet
       | activity.
       | 
       | Gotta hand it to them - "protecting the children" is a pretty
       | good pretext.
        
         | SpaceManNabs wrote:
         | Interesting to see these kinds of comments more in this thread
         | compared to the one from yesterday.
         | 
         | The one from yesterday was discussing how australia is banning
         | social media for anyone under 16. Most comments were supportive
         | because they hate social media.
         | 
         | A few comments were discussing how it is just a way to
         | propagate more KYC.
        
           | idle_zealot wrote:
           | It's way easier to justify banning social media entirely than
           | banning it for under-sixteens. Paradoxically it infringes on
           | freedom less, as it bans a type of business model for being
           | too harmful rather than restricting people's rights to view
           | and share information.
        
             | noduerme wrote:
             | Really? There are plenty of things that are considered
             | harmful to minors but okay for adults. Should all those be
             | banned too?
        
             | bluescrn wrote:
             | And who gets to decide which platforms count as 'social
             | media'?
             | 
             | This is a problem with Australia's attempt to ban kids from
             | it, where there's some surprising exemptions from the
             | restrictions.
        
           | to11mtm wrote:
           | I think the separation is in how 'algorithmic engagement' in
           | social media is at least as dangerous as stuff that even the
           | US still has banned in other forms of media [0].
           | 
           | Especially because it's gotten _so bad_. At first it was just
           | 'making things popular in your network more visible'. But now
           | it's to where when I use something like Facebook there is
           | more 'algorithm spam' than anything actually happening with
           | my friends. It's become something where the primary purpose
           | is 'driving views' rather than communicating. [1]
           | 
           | A VPN is a bit different; it's a _tool_ , and I will note one
           | that depending on the specific definition has legitimate (or
           | at least morally/ethically legitimate) uses.
           | 
           | [0] - e.x. unless it has been reversed in the last decade or
           | two, in the US you still can't cut from a kid's cartoon right
           | into a commercial for a toy/game related to said cartoon. I
           | mean FFS that was a rule that got put in before 'attention
           | hacking' was even a term.
           | 
           | [1] - TBH I'd love if we could get back to Myspace or maybe
           | even early Facebook type social media. There's a lot of
           | excitement lost when an algorithm feeds you shit versus a
           | friend sharing it, and it was a lot less noise...
        
             | SpaceManNabs wrote:
             | Completely fair.
             | 
             | My point is more so that these are both approaches to push
             | more KYC.
             | 
             | And many comments in here understand that this particular
             | ban is using "for the kids" as an excuse, so why didn't the
             | other thread have more comments recognizing this excuse?
        
       | casey2 wrote:
       | To protect children we must install malware on their computers!
       | Let's just hope those authorities don't use malware to peep on
       | them through webcams ... Again
       | 
       | or look at their personal data
       | 
       | or use behavior analytics to target minority groups as "risks"
       | sending law enforcement to harass or kill them.
       | 
       | or store all their personal data on a 3rd party companies
       | insecure servers
       | 
       | You have to start surveillance young, get them used to it early
       | so they don't realize how bad it is!
        
       | ascorbic wrote:
       | This is one of dozens of amendments proposed by members, so it's
       | more accurate to say "three members of the House of Lords
       | attempting to ban the use of VPNs".
        
         | TSiege wrote:
         | I'm not from the UK but I thought the house of lords is largely
         | a vestigial legislative body and has no serious power. Am I
         | wrong there?
        
           | notahacker wrote:
           | They can propose amendments to legislation, and delay some
           | legislation from passing if they don't like it or don't get
           | their amendments approved.
        
           | andyjohnson0 wrote:
           | Brit here. The HoL's role is to review and scrutinise
           | legislation as part of the parliamentary process of turning
           | bills into acts (laws). Almost all legislation originates in
           | the (directly elected) House of Commons. But all
           | parliamentary bills pass through the Lords, and they can
           | propose ammendments, but those ammendments have to be
           | approved by the Commons. Those that aren't are sent back to
           | the Lords for reconsideration. In the event of deadlock, the
           | Commons has primacy and can overrule the Lords.
        
           | OJFord wrote:
           | I suppose it depends what you call 'serious power', but yes,
           | stuff gets rejected and sent back down all the time.
           | 
           | It's _generally_ fine-tuning rather than another massive
           | hurdle after getting it through the Commons that the Lords
           | might not pass it at all, though.
           | 
           | You might be thinking of 'royal assent' which is pretty much
           | just a rubber stamp, yes, post-Lords.
        
       | kylecazar wrote:
       | Isn't everyone under the age of 16 using a VPN doing so through
       | their parent's billing?
        
         | lucb1e wrote:
         | Only for VPNs whose payment methods verify that you're -ge 16
         | 
         | Can't seem to link the section but down this page are some
         | options that don't require that: https://mullvad.net/en/pricing
        
           | kylecazar wrote:
           | Wow, send cash along with the token they generate (to
           | associate with your account). That's a new one...
           | Interesting!
        
         | StanislavPetrov wrote:
         | There are many free VPNs.
        
       | xoa wrote:
       | Blacklists are an inherently terrible, rights infringing approach
       | to this sort of issue vs whitelists. It would be a lot better if
       | the internet by default was simply considered 18+ (or 16+ or
       | whatever a country wants). Instead, the tld system could be
       | easily used to have age based domains where anyone who wanted one
       | had to meet some set of requirements for content standards,
       | accountability and content vetting, didn't allow user contributed
       | content at all without review or whatever was needed.
       | 
       | At that point all the technical components exist to make this an
       | ultra easy UI for parents. Require ISP WiFi routers at least to
       | support VLANs and PPSKs, which ultra cheap gear can do nowadays
       | no problem, and have an easy to GUI to "generate child password,
       | restrict to [age bracket]", heck to even just put in a birthday
       | and by default have it auto-increment access if a parent wants.
       | Add some easy options for time-of-day restrictions etc, done. Now
       | parents are in charge and no adult needs anything ever.
       | 
       | Now I highly doubt politicians are all being honest about full
       | motivations here, clearly there are plenty of forces trying to
       | use this issue as a wedge to go after rights in general. But at
       | the same time parental concern is real, and non-technical people
       | find it overwhelming. It'd be good if industries and community
       | could proactively offer a working solution, that'd reduce the
       | political salience a great deal. It's unfortunate the entire
       | narrative has been allowed to go 100% backwards in approach.
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > But at the same time parental concern is real
         | 
         | ... only to the degree it hasn't been manufactured by tabloid
         | media and Russian propaganda warfare, that is.
         | 
         | With every little news about local shootings, robberies, rapes,
         | beatings, thefts, whatever not just making national, but in the
         | worst case _international_ headlines, one might think that
         | Western countries are unsafe hellholes of the likes of actually
         | legitimately failed states - despite criminality rates often
         | being on record lows. Of course parents are going to be afraid
         | for their children, and it 's made worse by many Western
         | countries financially only allowing for one, maximum two
         | children.
         | 
         | On top of that, a lot of the panic is simply moral outrage.
         | Porn and "trans grooming" it seems to be these days, I 'member
         | growing up with the "Killerspiele" bullshit after some nutjob
         | shot up a school in the early '00s. My parents grew up with the
         | manufactured fear of reading too much as it was supposed to
         | make you myopic. Again, all manufactured fear by organized
         | groups aiming to rip our rights to pieces.
         | 
         | Parents should relax and rather teach their children about what
         | can expect them on the Internet, how people might want to take
         | advantage of them, and most importantly, that their children
         | can _always_ come to them when they feel something is going
         | bad, _without repercussions_. When children think that they
         | cannot show something to their parents, that is where the
         | actual do-bad people have an in.
        
           | lijok wrote:
           | You've clearly never been on Discord
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | Maybe go after Discord then for doing nothing meaningful
             | against abusive, should we not?
             | 
             | And if that means that Discord has to shut down... well,
             | okay, if that's the price? An organisation that doesn't
             | care about the impact on its host society is nothing more
             | than a parasite or cancer and should be treated as such.
             | 
             | (Besides: if you're aiming at stuff like groups of kids
             | bullying other kids into suicide or self harm - guess what:
             | that existed in times where there was no Internet. It just
             | wasn't widely reported, other than maybe holding a vigil
             | for a classmate who had "passed away")
        
               | lijok wrote:
               | I'm not debating whether they should ban VPNs for minors
               | with you. I'm providing a counter statement to your ill-
               | conceived thought that this is "all manufactured fear by
               | organized groups aiming to rip our rights to pieces".
        
           | jasonfarnon wrote:
           | "Parents should relax and ... "
           | 
           | "everyone should just adopt my values and then all these
           | political problems would just disappear. voila!"
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | > all these political problems
             | 
             | The problems I mentioned _aren 't real_, that's the point.
             | 
             | It hasn't just never been proven that Counter Strike et al
             | cause amok runs, it's been _disproven_ [1]. Consuming porn
             | doesn 't make people rapists (although I do concede: the
             | ethical aspects particularly around studio-produced porn do
             | require discussions), and consuming LGBT content doesn't
             | make children LGBT. People are, to the extent that we
             | reasonably know, _born_ LGBT.
             | 
             | The fact that some organizations (particularly religious)
             | have framed these issues as "political" doesn't make them
             | political either.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.mimikama.org/mythos-killerspiele/
        
         | btown wrote:
         | To be frank, while it may have a level of technical beauty,
         | this kind of "opt-in whitelist" approach is an authoritarian's
         | dream.
         | 
         | Once the baseline is established, the playbook becomes simple:
         | Shift that age bracket up to the very moment when someone can
         | vote. Make sure that every new voter spends all their formative
         | years unable to access even basic resources on the struggles
         | that marginalized groups go through, and the history of their
         | existence; set the bars for the "whitelist" so high that one
         | must toe the party line in every bit of messaging, and thus is
         | effectively a list of propagandists whose businesses can be
         | fined astronomically if they deviate. Take away the parent's
         | choice, and make it mandatory to use routers that block the
         | non-whitelisted TLDs for any device that doesn't
         | cryptographically authenticate as being operated by an adult.
         | Find ways to impose this on groups other than children (for
         | instance, by making it illegal for criminals to access the non-
         | whitelisted web, then greatly expanding that definition). All
         | in the name of peace and tranquility.
         | 
         | If you want V for Vendetta, this is how you get V for Vendetta.
        
       | tehjoker wrote:
       | It's crazy that there is a house of unelected lords in an
       | allegedly modern country.
        
         | andyjohnson0 wrote:
         | > It's crazy that there is a house of unelected lords in an
         | allegedly modern country.
         | 
         | I certainly agree. But its worth noting that only 92 of the 825
         | seats in the Lords are reserved for hereditary peers - the
         | remainder are nominated by the (elected) leaders of the main
         | political parties, or are appointed for non-political
         | achievements (science, society, business, arts, etc.) There are
         | also 26 Church of England bishops. Legislation to remove the
         | hereditary peers is currently going through parliament.
         | 
         | There's plenty wrong with the HoL, but I think there's at least
         | an argument to be made that the UK benefits from a
         | parliamentary revising chamber that is less party-political
         | than the Commons.
        
           | tehjoker wrote:
           | That description sounds like the U.S. senate before there was
           | a constitutional amendment to implement directly elected
           | senators. The indirect election of senators was used to
           | ensure that senators were selected to be favorable to elite
           | interests. Direct election was intended to make it more
           | responsive.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_U.
           | ..
           | 
           | However, I have many criticisms of the continuing
           | undemocratic nature U.S. Senate (I think it should be
           | dissolved entirely), but that reform was a good step.
           | 
           | It's true that the upper house will be less party political,
           | but that is because everyone inside is very comfy with each
           | other and aligned on policy that favors the wealthy.
        
           | pjc50 wrote:
           | > less party-political
           | 
           | Making it life appointments only makes things much worse. It
           | is not possible to be depoliticized in a polarized
           | environment; look at what happened to the US supreme Court,
           | or the Polish one.
        
       | int32_64 wrote:
       | It's so organic and grass roots and good for democracy(tm) that
       | every single Western country suddenly decided that eliminating
       | privacy online in lockstep was the top priority despite none of
       | the ruling parties running on it as a platform or with any
       | meaningful referendums from the voting public. But to what end?
        
         | stebalien wrote:
         | > democracy
         | 
         | house of lords
        
         | Barrin92 wrote:
         | >It's so organic and grass roots
         | 
         | It is though. This is one of the few surveillance issues
         | actually driven by grassroots organisations like
         | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Shout) in particular
         | when it comes to adult content who have been at this globally
         | for well over a decade.
         | 
         | There's no shadowy cabal trying to age-restrict porn or social
         | media, this is more like a modern day Carrie Nation. Puritanism
         | always comes from the bottom up
        
           | oncallthrow wrote:
           | Sorry, which grass roots group exactly campaigned for this?
           | Which party's manifesto was it on?
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | > Role and responsibilities of MI5 in law
         | 
         | > The Security Service Act 1989 sets out our functions and
         | gives some examples of the nature and range of threats we work
         | to disrupt.
         | 
         | > In summary, our functions are:
         | 
         | > to protect national security against threats from espionage,
         | terrorism and > sabotage, from the activities of agents of
         | foreign powers, and from actions intended to overthrow _or
         | undermine parliamentary democracy by political, industrial or
         | violent means_
         | 
         | Imagine you and I pay likely billions a year and these jokers
         | just let asset managers like Larry Fink influence policies
         | affecting fundamental rights of British people like it's
         | nothing.
         | 
         | The country is corrupt beyond belief and soon we will wake up
         | in corporate prison as slaves.
         | 
         | See:
         | 
         | https://thewinepress.substack.com/p/tokenization-blackrocks-...
         | 
         | https://www.cityam.com/reeves-and-starmer-meet-blackrocks-la...
         | 
         | https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-digital-id-scheme-to-...
        
       | raverbashing wrote:
       | Will probably work as well as their prohibition of knives for
       | underaged people
       | 
       | (That is, none at all)
        
         | fidotron wrote:
         | Reminds me of my favourite UK totalitarian politician fantasy
         | story: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2019/03/14/yes-a-
         | poli...
         | 
         | The UK went culturally off the deep end a long time ago.
        
       | parliament32 wrote:
       | I'm relatively confident this was the entire end goal of the
       | Online Safety Act. Get the (relatively) easy law passed, then "oh
       | no platforms are only requiring this for UK-based IPs and there
       | are too many VPNs/proxies, I guess we need to de-anonymize
       | everyone".
        
       | azalemeth wrote:
       | This is a clearly terrible idea. It's clear to us, at least, not
       | to them. As is on the public record, there are three proponents
       | behind this amendment. They and their contact details are:
       | 
       | LORD NASH [Tory, contactholmember@parliament.uk] BARONESS CASS
       | [Crossbench / 'independent', rivisn@parliament.uk ("staff")]
       | BARONESS BENJAMIN [Liberal Democrat - which particularly
       | disappoints me - benjaminf@parliament.uk]
       | 
       | All three can be contacted by sending an email to
       | contactholmember@parliament.uk using the proper form of address
       | as detailed in https://members.parliament.uk/member/4270/contact
       | 
       | If you're reading this website and are either living in the UK or
       | are a British citizen I strongly urge you to write a personalised
       | and above all polite email stating with evidence why they are
       | misguided. The "think of the children" brigade is strong - you
       | may well be able to persuade these individuals why it is a bad
       | idea.
        
         | sph wrote:
         | As if that's gonna change their minds. You'd have a better
         | chance by stuffing a PS20 note in the envelope.
        
         | fredoralive wrote:
         | > Liberal Democrat - which particularly disappoints me
         | 
         | don't you remember 2010?
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | Oh. Cass. She was given the peerage for constructing the Cass
         | Review, an extremely one sided anti trans "review" of the
         | science around puberty blockers. I suspect she's against VPNs
         | and in favor of total information control of children because
         | of trans panic.
        
       | baazaa wrote:
       | On a related note, they built their digital ID so that third
       | parties could verify attributes (it's NOT just a single-service
       | login across government + a linking ID across government
       | services, which is how it was sold by the BBC).
       | 
       | They're pretty close to completely de-anonymising the internet
       | for UK citizens. Say they introduce an Australian-style social
       | media ban for under 16s, then requires all social media to link
       | their accounts to digital IDs for this verification.
       | 
       | Naturally the only remaining loophole is if a UK citizen manages
       | to avoid being flagged as British ever by using a VPN, so I
       | expect they will focus on that going forwards. Keep in mind the
       | UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for
       | speech offences, there's no slippery-slope argument here because
       | the UK is already at the bottom of the slope as an ultra-
       | authoratitarian anti-speech nation.
        
         | iamacyborg wrote:
         | > Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast
         | numbers of people for speech offences
         | 
         | I think you've been spending too much time on Twitter
        
           | gmac wrote:
           | I wouldn't dismiss this so easily, the Palestine Action stuff
           | is pretty appalling.
        
             | iamacyborg wrote:
             | You mean folks choosing to protest under the guise of a
             | proscribed organisation?
             | 
             | Protesting in favour of Palestine remains legal, doing so
             | under the name of a proscribed organisation is not.
             | 
             | Admittedly, the reason for them being proscribed is rather
             | idiotic.
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | That's exactly it. The proscription is ridiculous and
               | delegitimises the whole concept of proscribed
               | organization. It collapses into "mere support for
               | Palestine is an arrestable offense". This didn't work
               | against Sinn Fein and it will not work now.
        
               | iamacyborg wrote:
               | > It collapses into "mere support for Palestine is an
               | arrestable offense".
               | 
               | It explicitly doesn't do that, folks are still very much
               | free to protest in support of Palestine.
        
               | oncallthrow wrote:
               | What ointment did the government put on their shoes to
               | make you want to lick them so badly?
        
           | piker wrote:
           | > While figures show that the total number of arrests for
           | online posts fell to 9,700 last year, down from a record
           | 13,800 in 2023...
           | 
           | https://freespeechunion.org/daily-mail-investigation-
           | exposes...
        
             | cyanydeez wrote:
             | arrests is not the same as imprisons.
        
               | stickfigure wrote:
               | That's not reassuring in the slightest.
        
               | OJFord wrote:
               | Not in the slightest?
        
               | junon wrote:
               | No.
        
               | ethanwillis wrote:
               | Yes, let me just arrest you over some text and hold you
               | for a couple of days.
               | 
               | Surely no problem! But being serious if anything this is
               | _worse_ than no imprisonment. Why are they arresting so
               | many people they don 't have any grounds to jail longer
               | term?
        
               | iamacyborg wrote:
               | Days?
               | 
               | > The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they
               | have to charge you with a crime or release you.
               | 
               | > They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if
               | you're suspected of a serious crime, such as murder.
               | 
               | > You can be held without charge for up to 14 days if
               | you're arrested under the Terrorism Act.
               | 
               | https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-
               | be-...
        
               | himinlomax wrote:
               | A distinction without a difference.
        
               | ribosometronome wrote:
               | The parent comment specifically quoted both, making a
               | citation for arrests fairly topical.
               | 
               | >Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast
               | numbers of people for speech offences
               | 
               | >>I think you've been spending too much time on Twitter
               | 
               | Did you miss it or are we moving the goalposts for some
               | reason?
        
             | omh wrote:
             | This is based on statistics for the Malicious
             | Communications Act. That includes people sending, for
             | example, threatening messages to an ex partner.
             | 
             | Not all of them are online posts, in fact probably a
             | minority
        
               | piker wrote:
               | That's what would be reasonably expected, but it's not
               | backed up by the information.
               | 
               | > The total arrest figures are likely to be far higher
               | because eight forces failed to respond to freedom of
               | information requests or provided inadequate data,
               | including Police Scotland, the second largest force in
               | the UK. _Some_ forces also included arrests for
               | "threatening" messages, though these do not fall under
               | the specified sections. [emphasis added]
               | 
               | https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-
               | make-30-arr...
               | (https://archive.is/kC5x2#selection-3325.0-3325.335)
        
               | omh wrote:
               | Thanks. That wasn't clear from the Mail article above.
               | 
               | But the Times article also says:
               | 
               | > A spokeswoman for Leicestershire police said crimes
               | under Section 127 and Section 1 include "any form of
               | communication" such as phone calls, letters, emails and
               | hoax calls to emergency services.
               | 
               | So I think the categorisation is a mess, and probably not
               | even consistent across forces
        
             | cj wrote:
             | I thought Daily Mail was close to tabloid status (or a bit
             | above). Aren't they banned from being a citation on
             | Wikipedia?
        
               | stooart wrote:
               | The Daily Mail is definitely tabloid, although some might
               | describe it as a comic. There are reasons why Wikipedia
               | doesn't allow it as a source.
        
               | 4bpp wrote:
               | It is by no means a _good_ publication, but at the same
               | time being accepted as a citation on Wikipedia or not is
               | not necessarily a particularly objective measure of
               | quality. I recommend reading
               | https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/reliable-sources-how-
               | wik... for the critical perspective on Wikipedia's
               | integrity in this regard.
        
           | cultofmetatron wrote:
           | then you haven't been paying attention. the UK is in fact
           | arresting people for all sorts of speech online. the vast
           | majority is not a call for violence at all.
        
           | PunchyHamster wrote:
           | compared to most countries that's correct
        
           | tekla wrote:
           | https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-
           | make-30-arr...
           | 
           | > Officers from 37 police forces made 12,183 arrests in 2023,
           | the equivalent of about 33 per day. This marks an almost 58
           | per cent rise in arrests since before the pandemic. In 2019,
           | forces logged 7,734 detentions.
        
           | jabedude wrote:
           | How many people would you guess were arrested last year for
           | online posts?
        
           | goalieca wrote:
           | The simple threat of arrest, even if they only happen by the
           | hundreds, is enough to have a chilling effect on free speech.
        
             | iamacyborg wrote:
             | Citation needed
        
               | nothrabannosir wrote:
               | Citation not needed at all. This is not a scientific
               | journal; it's a discussion forum. If you disagree feel
               | free to share your own opinion.
        
               | SlackingOff123 wrote:
               | Do you want a citation for an opinion?
        
           | kubb wrote:
           | Parallel realities. Over here it seems like the US is a
           | dystopia, with how hostile their leadership is to democratic
           | institutions and how greatly it empowers oligarchs.
           | 
           | They think that European countries (or commonly just
           | "Europe") are about to arrest all citizens for criticizing
           | politicians. "Europe" must be saved from their leftist
           | fascist regimes. For now using propaganda. Soon militarily.
        
         | andyjohnson0 wrote:
         | > Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast
         | numbers of people for speech offences.
         | 
         | Vast? No, they really don't.
        
           | elephant81 wrote:
           | How would you argue that more than one arrest is fair in a
           | modern democracy? Can you even point to an arrest where it
           | passes the pub test?
        
           | oncallthrow wrote:
           | Is tens of thousands vast enough for you?
        
           | cortic wrote:
           | 12,000 arrests per year, jury trials limit the conviction
           | rate to 10%. So they are currently trying to get rid of
           | juries, which they will do (at least for speech offenses).
           | Labour have an overwhelming majority, and a leader that has
           | styled himself after Nigel Farage. The UK is actually a scary
           | place right now, if you are paying attention..
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | Don't forget that Digital ID really has been pushed by Labour
         | after a meeting with Larry Fink and BlackRock. This is how
         | democracy gets bypassed by the wealthy and in functioning
         | country it should result in the entire government going to
         | prison. Unfortunately MI5 that is in charge of that is asleep
         | at the wheel - probably corrupt themselves.
        
       | fidotron wrote:
       | The way this, and various other proposals/actions in other
       | countries, are all popping up at the same time, seemingly
       | independently though obviously not, has to be one of the biggest
       | warning signs of trouble in my lifetime. Not helped by various
       | European states deciding they want national service again all of
       | a sudden.
       | 
       | Our governments have turned into the very thing they claimed to
       | be opposing for decades. It's disgraceful.
        
         | iamacyborg wrote:
         | > Not helped by various European states deciding they want
         | national service again all of a sudden
         | 
         | Their next-door neighbour is threatening war and their longtime
         | ally has turned into an unreliable kook. It's not all that
         | surprising that countries are looking to bolster their
         | defences.
        
       | azalemeth wrote:
       | It's also worth stating that the worst part of that proposed
       | amendment [1] isn't even necessarily the VPN ban, it's the next
       | clause, on page 20:
       | 
       | "The "CSAM requirement" is that any relevant device supplied for
       | use in the UK must have installed tamper-proof system software
       | which is highly effective at preventing the recording,
       | transmitting (by any means, including livestreaming) and viewing
       | of CSAM using that device."
       | 
       | "Regulations under subsection (1) must enable the Secretary of
       | State, by further regulations, to expand the definition of
       | 'relevant devices' to include other categories of device which
       | may be used to record, transmit or view CSAM"
       | 
       | Apple, what did you start?
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/63901/documents/746...
        
         | matheusmoreira wrote:
         | > any relevant device supplied for use in the UK must have
         | installed tamper-proof system software
         | 
         | It's happening. Computer freedom, everything the word "hacker"
         | ever stood for, will be officially destroyed if this passes.
         | We're about to be robbed of control over our computers _by
         | force of law_. It 's just the UK now but eventually it will be
         | every country.
         | 
         | This is a very dark day. I've been prophesizing its arrival for
         | a while now. I was secretly hoping I was wrong about
         | everything, that we'd turn this around, that we'd enshrine a
         | right to control our computers into law. The opposite is
         | happening instead. It's so sad...
        
       | iamacyborg wrote:
       | What is it about these UK politics posts that draws a particular
       | type of commenter?
       | 
       | What the heck media are these folks consuming to have such a
       | warped view of this country?
        
         | lordnacho wrote:
         | I've had American colleagues ask me about the London crime
         | wave. They seem to have some sort of alternative news source
         | that doesn't tell them murders have halved from the high point
         | around the millennium.
         | 
         | https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/london-murder-rate-dr...
         | 
         | Then they say it's about knife crime. Where the UK also does
         | better than the US.
         | 
         | https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/05/trump-s-knife-crime-clai...
        
         | StanislavPetrov wrote:
         | Probably the media that shows the UK locking up old ladies and
         | people in wheelchairs for speaking out publicly against ongoing
         | UK support for genocide (among other "speech offenses").
        
           | iamacyborg wrote:
           | You might be missing some important context, namely that
           | they're doing so under the guise of a proscribed
           | organisation.
        
         | bondarchuk wrote:
         | You can just read it on Wikipedia
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingd...
         | 
         | ("(Redirected from Freedom of speech in the United Kingdom)"
         | kind of funny innit)
        
       | ravenical wrote:
       | I, for one, am just /shocked/ that Baroness Cass (of the Cass
       | Report) is trying to limit people's personal freedoms.
        
       | dave1010uk wrote:
       | I know what you're thinking: these restrictions are easy to work
       | around. But don't worry, we can just layer more restrictions on
       | top. Eventually the children will be safe! The government just
       | needs to...
       | 
       | - require proof of age (ID) to install apps from unofficial
       | sources on your phone or PC. Probably best to block this at both
       | the OS and also popular VPN downloading sites like github.com and
       | debian.org.
       | 
       | - require proof of age (ID) to unblock DNS provider IP addresses
       | like 8.8.8.8 and 1.1.1.1 at your ISP.
        
       | nisten wrote:
       | As someone fully supportive of the social media ban for
       | Australian kids, I think As someone fully supportive of the
       | social media ban for Australian kids, I think we need to teach UK
       | kids to vibecode their own VPNs with OSS models at this point so
       | they can save what's left of their future civil liberties.
       | 
       | We all know where this is going, they're going to ban the one
       | mathematical tool we have that gives us control over machines,
       | encryption.
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | You support the ban but also circumventing it?
        
       | bilekas wrote:
       | On what possible grounds can they enforce this? Please someone
       | tell me when the line is crossed.
        
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