[HN Gopher] Europe Is Under Siege
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Europe Is Under Siege
Author : alephnerd
Score : 22 points
Date : 2025-12-08 20:16 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.noahpinion.blog)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.noahpinion.blog)
| mitchbob wrote:
| Discussion yesterday:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46182986
| GenerWork wrote:
| It's kind of wild reading the writings of a neoliberal who wishes
| that the clock could be turned back to the Clinton or Obama
| administration. I think the worst part is that his own cherry
| picked quotes don't really support his thesis. His quote from the
| Economist doesn't even really focus on free trade, it focuses
| more on how China is outsmarting Europe.
| ls612 wrote:
| All I can say as an American is that the Europeans did it to
| themselves. They have not been strategically serious countries
| for almost a century and have not had to compete with the rest of
| the world as a de facto US protectorate. Now they are discovering
| the consequences of spending 40% of their GDP on social programs.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| This criticism may be correct on its own, but I would say it
| still unbalanced because it leaves out some relevant things.
| America has a lot of debt and a lot of spending on social
| programs as well. There is debt everywhere - the federal
| government, states, cities, companies, and people. This will
| become a problem soon. It is propped up by the reserve currency
| status of the Dollar but that may go away before the end of
| this century or a lot sooner.
|
| Calling Europe a de facto US protectorate is also ignoring the
| fact that the US has a geographical advantage of being
| relatively separated from hostile world powers, which let it
| avoid most of the effects of the world wars - and that's really
| pretty recent in historical terms. Is that really something
| America gets credit for, or is it just luck?
|
| Finally, the US had benefited a lot from immigration but the
| most vocal American voices that attack Europe seem to ignore
| this reality, and are also clamoring for a shutdown of programs
| like F1, H1B, etc. - despite half the biggest American
| companies being founded by immigrants or their children. If you
| glimpse into the future, is America any more "strategically
| serious" than Europe? Or is it just another has been that turns
| to racism and isolationism to deal with its problems?
| labrador wrote:
| I don't think Europeans realize how much many Americans hate that
| their Eurovision Song Contest winner was what appeared to be a
| man with a beard in a dress. I'm not taking a position one way or
| another, just pointing out that many Americans hate stuff like
| this and Europeans appear to be oblivious to it. Reconcilliation
| starts with understanding.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Most Americans don't follow Eurovision.
|
| In fact, ties to Europe are increasingly fringe - either alt-
| right "White Christendom" types or "I support Scandinavian
| socialism" types (yes ik Scandinavia is not socialist).
|
| A major reason cooperative Atlanticism emerged instead of a
| more hardline psudeo-colonial approach like the US took in
| Japan, SK, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, and Thailand during
| the 1950s-90s was because some of the most important foreign
| policy decisionmakers in mid-late 20th century America were 1.5
| or 2nd Generation immigrants from Europe - think Kissinger
| (born and raised in Germany), Albright (born and raised in
| Czechia+Britan), or Brzezinski (born and raised in Poland+USSR)
| - and had some amount of sympathy for Europeans as a result.
|
| In the 2010s and onwards, most Americans (and especially those
| of us who worked on the Hill) either never had blood ties or
| have extremely distant blood ties to Europe.
|
| From a soft power perspective in the US, Asia has a stronger
| foothold compared to much of Europe - Korean fashion like
| bucket hats are becoming common, Anime has become mainstream,
| and much of internet culture is increasingly Asia facing - and
| demographically, Central and South American intercultural
| exchange remains in the vogue.
|
| And when European nations take a hard-right turn (eg. an AfD,
| RN, or Reform victory), when Democrats eventually return to
| power, we'd shun Europe as well because racism is still alive
| and well in plenty of Europe, and South Asian and Arab
| Americans are overrepresented in policymaking roles in both
| parties, and those of us who enter the space are very aware of
| how our ethnic peers are treated across the pond. There's a
| reason our parents immigrated here instead of London or
| Frankfurt.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| I agree that a man with a beard in a dress is shocking and
| perhaps even radicalizing to many or most people - not just in
| America but Europe itself. The trans issue remains a big
| controversy. But most Americans have probably never even heard
| of Eurovision. Maybe they saw a meme about it or something like
| that, but I don't think this is what causes Americans to
| criticize Europe. In recent times, I would say the biggest
| topics are crimes committed in Europe by Islamic Arab
| refugees/immigrants (especially against women and minors), and
| attacks against American companies or free speech.
|
| There is a lot of truth and justification for Americans to be
| concerned about both these topics - but judging by the kind of
| things posted by Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and the web of
| politicians/businessmen connected to them, I would say a bit
| part of why Americans "hate" Europe is simply because they have
| been radicalized by the extremist rhetoric used by the people
| they follow or look up to.
| swatcoder wrote:
| 40 years ago, those were the same people who "hated" how
| cavalier the French supposedly were regarding marriage and sex.
| That is to say, these are people who don't really care about
| Europe in the first place. They weren't watching French cinema
| or mingling with Parisians then, regardless of France's actual
| culture, and they're not watching Eurovision now.
|
| They're _already_ just nationalist folk reaching for for an
| example of what makes their culture the better one. Those
| people exist all over the world, and will always exist in some
| influential share, and don 't change their mind based on fiddly
| little details like who wins a little talent search pageant
| they never cared about in the first place.
|
| These people do need to be engaged with if we want
| international fraternity and open trade and stable military
| relationships, but that engagement is about finding reasons for
| those nationalists to think bigger to to make sure they can see
| benefits to pursuing those ends with weirdos half a world away,
| because the people half a world away are _always_ going to look
| like weirdos when that 's what you want to see.
| watwut wrote:
| You are totally taking a position. And europeans do understand
| what Americans became - something disgusting.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| > On the economic front, China's new economic strategy -- a
| combination of shutting out European products, sending out a
| massive wave of subsidized exports, and putting export controls
| on rare earths -- threatens to forcibly deindustrialize Europe
|
| This is definitely a problem. China wants to freely operate in
| foreign markets, but wants to also lock others out of their own
| market, or control their companies to a level where they can
| perform intellectual property theft, or commit straight up
| asymmetrical warfare (like cyberattacks). But competitiveness
| with China requires more than fixing those problems - it also
| requires plain old effort - and the culture of work and social
| safety nets in Europe (the pension problem mentioned in the
| article) are difficult to fix.
|
| Finally, I wonder who Europe can partner with now - not China,
| and obviously not America. Does that leave India as the only
| alternative? Because it doesn't appear to me that European
| leaders or its citizens are very friendly towards them either.
| Maybe Southeast Asia or South America could also be partners. But
| the geopolitical strategy of Europe seems non existent. The
| American dependency has been destroyed but what fills that empty
| space?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Does that leave India as the only alternative?
|
| > Because it doesn't appear to me that European leaders or its
| citizens are very friendly towards them either
|
| There's a reason the EU is finalizing an FTA with India [0],
| with the backing of France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, and
| others. India also has a multiple veto in the EU now thanks to
| France, Greece [1], and Cyprus [2]. India is also heavily
| investing in France's MIC leading to Safran [3], Thales [4],
| and Dassault [5] transferring IP and setting up shop in India.
|
| But this inevitably gives India an indirect veto position like
| China and the US, because of India's hard anti-Turkiye stance
| aligns with Greece and Cyprus' national security needs
| (ambivalent/indifferent about Russia but antagonistic to
| Turkiye) and subsidizes a large portion of France's industrial
| base. Essentially, it allows India to use pressure on Greece
| and Cyprus to influence the EU the same way China uses pressure
| on Spain and Hungary to influence the EU.
|
| [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-trade-talks-
| ent...
|
| [1] - https://www.eliamep.gr/en/syndeontas-efkairies-o-
| stratigikos...
|
| [2] - https://m.kathimerini.com.cy/gr/politiki/ptb-endeixi-
| dynamik...
|
| [3] - https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/safran-india-
| fighter-je...
|
| [4] - https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-
| releases/th...
|
| [5] - https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-
| kits/...
| geldedus wrote:
| The US is allied with Russia, and doesn't even bother to hide it
| anymore. Been saying this since Agent Orange got elected
| alephnerd wrote:
| The US is aligned with the US. We don't have significant
| cultural ties with Europe on either the DNC or the GOP side
| anymore.
|
| The pivot to Asia began under Obama 16 years ago. Russia simply
| isn't viewed as a threat worth expending resources on given
| that China is across the Pacific. And the era of Europe born-
| and-raised advisors like Kissinger, Albright, or Brzezinski is
| over. Most Americans in the 2020s either never had or lost
| close blood ties to Europe, so the sympathy that allowed
| Atlanticism to form instead of the more heavy-handed approach
| used in Asia doesn't exist anymore.
|
| A _lot_ of Europeans (from policymakers all the way down to
| normies) really overestimate how Americans view ties with
| Europe. We have stronger soft power relations with Asia than we
| do with Europe now.
|
| If European nations like France, Germany, or the UK shift
| right, then when the Dems return to power they would _also_ be
| cold-to-hostile to Europe.
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(page generated 2025-12-08 23:02 UTC)