[HN Gopher] Bikeshedding, or why I want to build a laptop
___________________________________________________________________
Bikeshedding, or why I want to build a laptop
Author : cspags
Score : 213 points
Date : 2025-12-01 01:08 UTC (6 days ago)
(HTM) web link (geohot.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (geohot.github.io)
| SilverElfin wrote:
| The bit about HP's naming scheme is painfully true, about many
| companies. Utterly dumb marketing strategies.
| krick wrote:
| I feel the same way, but I wouldn't be bold enough to call it
| dumb. I mean, I _assume_ they know what they are doing. This is
| very inconvenient for me, as a buyer, but I suppose most
| companies just aren 't Apple, so they throw at us a lot of
| various stuff hoping that something sticks. And, for that
| matter, Apple's product line gets more diversified each year
| too. now it's Air, and Pro, and Max, so I wouldn't bet it won't
| be G1 Ultra F12b in 10 more years too.
| fmajid wrote:
| Zbook Ultra G1a 14 makes perfect sense:
|
| Z means workstation
|
| Book for notebook/laptop format, not desktop
|
| Ultra is the line, like Pro in MacBook Pro
|
| G1 is the first generation, that way you don't have to wonder
|
| a for AMD
|
| 14 is the screen diagonal
| smitty1e wrote:
| Your attention is drawn to https://system76.com/
| ntnsndr wrote:
| Amen. Not only do they make hardware in the US (though not
| laptops yet), they contribute great Linux software.
| bpye wrote:
| > Not only do they make hardware in the US
|
| Many outside of the US would consider that a con today.
| greenchair wrote:
| TDS
| pixelpoet wrote:
| Post history is exactly what one would expect...
| cesarvarela wrote:
| Just from the pictures you can tell it doesn't feel like a
| MacBook's unibody.
| shadowpho wrote:
| tradeoffs :)
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| I'd love to hear people compare their system76 laptop to a
| Macbook, but it's really hard to find recommendations that
| don't just grade their non-Macbook on a curve just because it's
| not one.
|
| Edit: Way too many issues on r/system76.
| fruitworks wrote:
| the upgradability and interchangibility of parts in the framework
| ecosystem are needed to sustain a shelling point.
|
| As for the PC ecosystem, there are no good x86 cpus with good
| power effciciency. Maybe geohot would like
| https://metacomputing.io/products/metacomputing-arm-aipc ?
| Framework 13 does not have his specific touchpad complaint
| jph wrote:
| Do you know about Framework? https://frame.work/
| xrd wrote:
| Read the article.
| none2585 wrote:
| I'm unsure if this is a joke or if you really didn't read the
| article
| forgetfulness wrote:
| The author wants to buy a whole new computer every year or two
| max, instead of upgrading components
|
| That's an impressive, so to speak, level of consumerism,
| reminds me of a self-professed minimalist that made the rounds
| here years ago, he practiced detachment from worldly
| possessions by throwing away his clothes after use and buying
| new ones, instead of washing them
| mappu wrote:
| I remember that story. I want to say it was the Soylent drink
| founder, but Google is steering me astray. Who was it?
| forgetfulness wrote:
| I can't find it either. It may have been him, washing
| machines are the kind of alternating current appliances
| that he avoided in preparation for living in space
|
| HN was so enamored with him when his deal was about hacking
| eating into being more productive by not having to chew
| doublextremevil wrote:
| the whole pc laptop industry really is an embarrassment right
| now. It has been 5 years since the M1 Macbook release, and there
| is no real equivalent. I'm on a thinkpad x9, which might be the
| closest I've seen, but the cpu performance just isn't as good.
| no_wizard wrote:
| It has always been an embarrassment.
|
| Vizio made a good laptop once and then they just existed the
| computer industry. They had a vision of high quality
| approachable laptops, desktops and pro platforms and their
| first gen was a good attempt, but they just didn't follow on.
| s0rce wrote:
| I think it was fine 20 odd years ago. I had a Thinkpad T41p
| in 2004 and it was a great laptop. Even my Sony Vaio Z was
| nice in 2008 compared to the competition (although it had
| serious issues with the screen flexibility causing it to fail
| multiple times).
|
| Since 2012 I've had 3 Macs, a 2012 Air, a 2020 M1 (this was a
| massive upgrade and the nicest laptop I ever used, even
| compared to my relatively new work thinkpad). I just cracked
| the screen on my M1 so bought a discounted M4 air on black
| friday. I can't tell the difference other than I like having
| magsafe back and only miss the touch bar slightly.
| dafelst wrote:
| Yes! I had a Vizio laptop (the thin one ala a macbook air)
| and it was absolutely fantastic, probably the best PC laptop
| I have ever had. It was lightweight, powerful, had a good
| screen (for the time) plus some things that few other laptops
| had at the time, like a TPM.
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| Starlabs is pretty close IMO
| justinparus wrote:
| Have you bought one?
| sroerick wrote:
| I bought the StarLabs tablet, and it was... Okay.
|
| The tablet itself has been good. The firmware support is
| good. The charger died, and the keyboard case is on its last
| legs. I had to solder the pins back on to keep it working.
| It's an acceptable keyboard case, but the 'a' key doesn't
| work super well. Still a decent product, particularly for a
| Linux convertable, but definitely not something I would give
| my dad.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Ryzen AI 370 is a pretty badass mobile x86 chip. Enjoying my
| gpd win max 2 just fine, apple would have to make a 10" M4 to
| compete :)
| bloppe wrote:
| XPS 13 has snapdragon x elite and is very well built. Not sure
| how good Linux support is, tho. I run Linux on my Intel-based
| XPS 14 and it's pretty good, apart from the webcam being
| totally uncalibrated and looking kinda shite, but at least it
| works.
| finaard wrote:
| Maximum 32GB of RAM, which is a bad joke if you want to use
| it as developer system nowadays.
|
| TL;DR: Waited for a decade for somebody to make a non-shitty
| notebook, went for macbook as the least bad option when the
| old one was falling apart.
|
| Also the modern thinkpad keyboards are crap, and the
| trackpoint is unusable in the low profile style.
|
| I switched to a macbook pro last year after having some
| contact with apple hardware in a customer project, from a
| thinkpad x230 with a x220 keyboard I've kept barely alive
| over the years. Now _some_ non-Apple notebooks (mostly from
| framework) can take sensible amount of memory, but at the
| time of purchase that was the only 14" notebook capable of
| taking a decent amount of RAM. The only other ones that could
| take RAM were some xeon workstation type builds - big
| display, shitty battery runtime, and same or more expensive
| than a fully specced out macbook.
|
| Apple also seems to have put some effort into keyboards -
| with the current macbook pro keyboard being one of the best
| notebook keyboards currently out there. Not as good as the
| classic thinkpad keyboards, but better than anything lenovo
| made in over a decade. Dell never was that great, and did a
| massive step back in their latest model. HP is somewhat
| close, but still noticeable difference.
| cesarvarela wrote:
| The industry also didn't keep up with the trackpad, which
| should be simpler.
| morshu9001 wrote:
| Apple trackpads are so good that I prefer that over a full
| mouse for work
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| I actually looked for a desktop trackpad for my desktop pc
| that is on par with my macbook trackpad. Didn't find one
| available.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Apple sells an external trackpad. But AFAIK it requires
| the computer to have Bluetooth. Not sure how well it
| works with a non-apple os, though.
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| I suspect it does not work well outside Apple world. And
| that's kind of the thing with "I want Apple hardware but
| with Linux software": Software is actually important in
| the user experience with the hardware.
| aorth wrote:
| The Apple Magic TrackPad works well on Linux, both via
| Bluetooth and USB-C. I used one for a few years.
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| Interesting. Are multi-touch gestures supported ?
|
| (like these: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102482 )
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I don't know about the magic trackpad specifically, but
| on my HP Elitebook I can use gestures. I'm running i3 and
| it doesn't support much out of the box, but I was able to
| configure stuff using libinput-gestures.
|
| More info:
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Libinput#Gestures
| finaard wrote:
| Since I switched to a macbook from a (proper) thinkpad I
| just carry a trackball with me when I expect to do longer
| stuff that requires mousing - the track pad isn't bad, but
| gets annoying over time. That also finalized my switch away
| from mice - before that I had both a mouse and a trackball
| on my desk, and while I still have that I can't remember
| when I last touched the mouse.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| The HP Zbook Ultra G1A is a contender, but it's also the only
| contender to your point.
| nicolaslem wrote:
| Unfortunately it idles at ~8W, which is quite far from the
| ~3W of the best in class laptops.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "the whole pc laptop industry really is an embarrassment
| right now. It has been 5 years since the M1 Macbook release,
| and there is no real equivalent."
|
| True. I think that's mostly because they model their
| merchandise after Apple's products. I find Apple's hardware
| utterly undesirable, tho. The only product of theirs I ever
| showed any interest in was their Newton line of handhelds; my
| dream machine is quite far removed from the stuff that's
| mentioned in the OP's article, let alone anything that maps to
| Apple's portfolio (and even more importantly, product
| philosophy).
| chem83 wrote:
| The gaming laptops that have been made a bit less game-y
| without the RGBs and thick chassis turned out to be the sweet
| spot for me. Some compromises here and there, sure, but they
| mostly have the hardware I want. Asus has a good line up that
| works very well with Linux from 13 to 16 inches, all with
| dGPUs, AMD CPU (though Intel is also there), high-refresh rate
| OLEDs etc.
| rangestransform wrote:
| The quality of asus firmware development for power management
| things is basically shovelware
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| I don't know. Just run Linux in a VM on macOS. What exactly is
| Apple not permitting you to do?
|
| Asahi would have 100x more adoption if it was about better
| virtualization of Linux on macOS. It would be a DIFFERENT product
| and I guess that's the point, right?
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Just run Linux in a VM on macOS. What exactly is Apple not
| permitting you to do?
|
| High performance GPU for VMs, for starters. And the amount of
| crap that even a bare-bones macOS needs to load (and that
| consequently hog resources like RAM and CPU time) is a goddamn
| joke.
| adalacelove wrote:
| You cannot uninstall Apple Music. That alone is alienating.
| philistine wrote:
| You cannot uninstall Music.app indeed. There is one toggle
| that hides all of Apple Music. It completely hides it, to
| the point that a link online to the service will error out.
| RunSet wrote:
| That setting was removed[0].
|
| [0] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253315335?sortBy
| =rank
| mrpippy wrote:
| IMO, the benefits of an immutable OS install outweigh being
| able to uninstall/remove particular apps.
| beeflet wrote:
| do the benefits of a closed-source OS outweigh being able
| to do whatever you want?
| dmarinus wrote:
| I tried this for a virtualized full screen gnome desktop
| environment but the latency was unbearable. I also couldn't get
| passthrough of command/caps lock etc to the virtual machine
| stable. Finally connecting an USB device (like a yubikey)
| didn't work seamless.
| jrflowers wrote:
| A good chunk of (but not all) his requirements would be fulfilled
| by an ASUS ROG Flow Z13
| flumpcakes wrote:
| Honestly this describes a product I would want. I want the
| hardware of a MacBook that runs Linux and not MacOS.
| krick wrote:
| I wonder why ThinkPads are not mentioned. It's not like I
| _recommend_ them (I mean, I use one, but it 's not like I've
| tried most laptops out there, so who I am to judge), but I was
| under the impression it's still a de-facto Linux laptop standard.
| johnhamlin wrote:
| How's the battery life?
| krick wrote:
| Cannot properly evaluate now. I never really use it without a
| cable for too long, and by now the battery must have slightly
| degraded too. Anyway, it never was Macbook-level, I guess,
| and it's an oldish model, so you should check actual reviews
| for current models that you are interested in, there always
| was plenty of them for ThinkPads (at least, the last time
| when I looked for a new laptop).
| daemonologist wrote:
| The old ones had hot-swappable batteries (a second internal
| battery - of decent size - kept the device going while you
| replaced the external one). I used to keep a couple of extra
| 50 Wh batteries in my backpack and therefore had _excellent_
| battery life. The power efficiency wasn 't great though.
|
| I now have a Z13 Gen 1 (AMD 6850U) running Fedora and the
| battery life is passable. It draws 7-8W at idle from a 51 Wh
| battery.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| So the battery life wasn't excellent.
|
| My laptop can go on for days as well as long as I plug it
| in to a power bank. I just need to lug them around,
| defeating the purpose.
| blitzar wrote:
| I get near infinite battery life on mine if I plug it
| into a wall outlet.
| superdisk wrote:
| I'll actually answer your question, it's horrible. I have a
| X1 Carbon and get maybe 3-4 hours on Linux.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| Thinkpads are probably fine if that's the price point you're
| shopping at, but the modern ones are not good value. HP has the
| best mobile workstation available currently.
| rick_dalton wrote:
| The author of the article recently had a "laptop olympics"
| stream where he compared his laptops. He owns an X1 carbon but
| doesn't like it at all, mainly because of the CPU iirc.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| On his video channel he shows 4 laptops, including a ThinkPad
| Carbon, about which he said "it costed way too much considering
| what it delivered"
| sincerely wrote:
| They used to be genuinely great, now they coasting on brand
| name and simply not being as bad as most laptops. DIY hardware
| upgrades are no longer possible, the keyboard is no longer a
| differentiator, and linux battery life is about 1/4 windows
| running on the same machine.
|
| From what I remember the last time I bought a laptop, they also
| have a really annoying pricing model where everything is 30%
| overpriced but are running constant discounts
| perching_aix wrote:
| This is a refreshing take in some ways. I'm beyond tired of the
| usual rose-tinted attitudes towards customizability and after-
| engineered things.
|
| It was a bit disappointing to see the cold shower not reach the
| thermals situation however, despite the heavy emphasis on
| performant parts. Apple's offerings are phone-like, they let them
| saturate then throttle. The alternative is the ugly gamer laptops
| with their jet engines. Not sure I can wholeheartedly prefer
| either.
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| All I want is a thinner Thinkpad X220 but with upped specs and
| newer ports. Framework-style upgradable motherboard would be nice
| but optional. The X220 already has a perfect keyboard, a mousing
| system that doesn't suck (sorry, I've never been happy with a
| trackpad: they feel too imprecise), a beautiful form factor for a
| laptop (if I want a laptop, I want it to be 12-14in for easiest
| portability), it's practically indestructible and has an array of
| ports that makes me wonder how people manage with just 3 USB-C
| ports. Maybe this is just me though.
| linguae wrote:
| It's not just you; I would also love a modern ThinkPad x220. I
| have a Framework 13 and I enjoy it, though I wish it had better
| battery life. The perfect laptop for me would be my Framework
| 13 with a classic ThinkPad keyboard.
| tambourine_man wrote:
| > I've never been happy with a trackpad: they feel too
| imprecise
|
| Everything non-Apple is. Apple's trackpad are great and have
| been for decades. I've done professional image editing on the
| go even with the tiny by today's standards PowerBook G4s
| trackpads.
|
| The real tragedy of our industry is that Apple got the basics
| right a few decades ago but seems determined to make their OS
| worse for pro user with every release. Yet no one else seems
| competent or willing to take on the challenge.
| sapphire_tomb wrote:
| I see this comment about how awesome Apple Trackpads are all
| the time here, and just assumed I was missing out because I'd
| never used a MacBook. But I got given a MacBook Pro recently
| for work, and I'm super underwhelmed. The trackpad on it is
| no better or worse than any other trackpad I've used.
| nehal3m wrote:
| Part of their magic is the integration with the operating
| system in the form of gestures. Their UI for discovering
| those used to be stellar; every gesture had a little video
| preview. Right now I'd describe it as just okay. Check the
| 'trackpad gestures' section in system settings, or this:
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/102482
| viraptor wrote:
| The gestures are there in KDE already
| https://github.com/NayamAmarshe/ToucheggKDE
| ColonelPhantom wrote:
| Touchegg kinda sucks (gestures are not 1:1 but rather
| just "triggered"), and you also don't need it. KDE and
| Gnome (as well as some WMs like Niri) have native
| touchpad gesture support on Wayland. Using my touchpad
| for history navigation also works flawlessly on Firefox
| with two fingers (essentially just horizontal scrolling).
| buildbot wrote:
| I'm sure they manage to hit 120fps smoothly too just like
| MacOS? ...
| silon42 wrote:
| I find it worse, because it's far too big for me... the
| thinkpad T series one is acceptable.
|
| What I'd want in a hack laptop is a full size TKL keyboard
| (and full height, or close), with a trackpoint (or 2 -- add
| one near the arrow keys).
| lenkite wrote:
| > The trackpad on it is no better or worse than any other
| trackpad I've used.
|
| Compared to the thinkpad trackpad, it is light-years ahead.
| It is also more robust - functions with a little bit of
| dirt/oil/dirt/water. Get some oil on the thinkpad trackpad
| and you need to spend 10 mins wiping it away for it to work
| without driving you nuts.
|
| Even hardcore thinkpad fans have grudgingly admitted to the
| superiority of the Macbook trackpad. Check the thinkpad
| forums to see their envy.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "I've never been happy with a trackpad: they feel too
| imprecise"
|
| Same for me, Apple included; trackpads are just a huge waste of
| space to me. Have to say that my hand-eye coordination is way
| above that of the average computer user, and my workflows
| involving complementary HIDs always focused on trackballs,
| digtizer pens, as well as gamepads/game controllers for other,
| non-game related stuff.
|
| I also don't get why people still chase outdated form factors
| (laptops) by preference as opposed to market realities...
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Also don't like trackpads. I even use a ThinkPad keyboard on
| my desktop. The little rubber nub between G and H is just the
| ideal control for the pointer. And real buttons for clicking.
| MrGreenTea wrote:
| I don't understand what you mean by "outdated form factors".
| Are you saying that the laptop is an outdated form factor?
| What "market realities" are you noticing? Really interested
| in your viewpoint and would be grateful for some
| clarification.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "Are you saying that the laptop is an outdated form
| factor?"
|
| Yes, that's the gist of it. Classic laptops gave way to an
| acceptable interstage, the T-hinge convertible (with many
| great examples especially from IBM/Lenovo, HP, and
| Fujitsu), which was then superseded by the best of both
| worlds: the detachable. The latter chassis design, taken to
| its logical conclusion, is the best form factor for a
| modular, ultramobile to mobile general-purpose computing
| platform, i. e. it can technically be implemented as
| anything between a UMPC (i. e. a smartphone-sized and
| -styled slab) to something with a footprint of _maximally_
| 14 inches (example: HP 's discontinued ZBook X2 G4 mobile
| workstation). Anything bigger I consider an antithesis to
| the form factor and therefore would not buy it, but that's
| obviously in the eye of any beholder.
|
| One possible unrealistic "dream" design for me is, as weird
| as it sounds, a cross between a Nintendo Switch/Lenovo
| Legion Go (complete with detachable controller options!)
| and an improved Panasonic Toughbook G2, reworked as a
| professional-grade, maintenance-friendly mobile workstation
| (or a scaled-down, more maintenance-friendly and otherwise
| improved HP ZBook X2 G4 with ECC memory).
|
| > "What 'market realities' are you noticing?"
|
| Well, the above mentioned design is unrealistic as it would
| amount to an expensive general-purpose machine that needs a
| long-term support infrastructure. Not many companies on the
| market that are in a position to deliver on that promise
| for _at least_ three continental zones (say, the Americas,
| the Eurozone and major parts of Asia). Or willing to do so.
|
| Furthermore, the comment was a reflection on what is
| available on the market for the foreseeable future. I'm
| eyeing such a small mobile workstation for a) 2D graphics
| work _and_ b) analysis of historical and archival data. I
| am even willing to put up with a classic laptop if I could
| get an ECC-equipped model. But none of these machines are
| mobile, they 're all 16-inch+ brutes. No thanks.
|
| So I have to look for other machines. ECC-machine? Fuck,
| most likely some mini-PC _in addition_ to something mobile
| without ECC memory. Keeping that in mind, what are the
| options that come closest to the above ideal? Essentially
| only overspecialized, maintenance-averse gaming machines
| with pathetic battery life and a support quality somewhere
| between questionable and utterly inacceptable (Lenovo
| consumer division, OneXPlayer, Asus).
|
| A Panasonic Toughbook G2 10-incher could be an acceptable
| alternative, but I'm not gonna fork over Panasonic-money
| for a non-ECC ruggedized machine without a DCI-P3 screen
| and a digitizer that's even worse than an Apple Pencil (I
| think they use either Microsoft's Pen Protocol or Wacom's
| AES tech).
|
| Everything else is locked-down garbage with some sort of
| Fisher-Price OS, e. g. everything Apple, Samsung's Galaxy
| Tab Active5 Pro, etc.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Not OP, but basically share that opinion.
|
| Traditional laptops have their place, but I think most
| people would be better served by other form factors.
|
| For instance a good amount of people use their laptops
| basically like a desktop and dock it to an external screen
| 90% of the time. For that specific use case, a tablet form
| factor will have better thermals, and lend itself better to
| have a separate and better keyboard and pointing device.
| The other 10% will still be a decent experience with either
| the detachable keyboard or straight bringing along an
| external keyboard if the work sequences are exepected to be
| long enough.
|
| People more on the go but needing a powerful setup when
| needed now have access to devices that can expand the
| screen real estate beyond the 15" traditional limitation.
| Lenovo has been pushing the enveloppe on that front, and
| the build quality isn't bad either.
|
| Gaming laptops are better served by Steam Deck/ROG Ally
| type of form factors etc.
|
| The market is decently diversified and the form factors I'm
| describing are as far as I know selling better numbers than
| people clinging to Thinkpads and macbooks would expect.
| Lio wrote:
| I don't know what you mean by "market realities". If the
| market wanted convertible laptops it would be willing to pay
| more for them.
|
| For me it's because my workflow is keyboard driven and I
| fined touchscreens annoying.
|
| On the laptops I've had I generally disable touchscreen
| because I have no use for it and it gets in the way.
|
| I want a good screen, a decent keyboard and a good trackpad.
| That's it.
| spankibalt wrote:
| > "I don't know what you mean by 'market realities'."
|
| The reality that a certain crowd, I count myself among
| them, has to/or might have to choose laptops because
| machines in their preferred form factor either a) implement
| too many inacceptable but technically entirely avoidable
| compromises, or b) don't exist at all. _That_ market
| reality. Like, when you have _to settle for_ a laptop.
| estimator7292 wrote:
| I would pay almost anything for a Thinkpad T530 with a modern
| AMD chipset, a high resolution screen, and USB-C.
|
| That thing is my platonic ideal of a laptop
| fizzynut wrote:
| Honestly if you actually need high end specs then you should just
| build a PC.
|
| "16 core Zen 5 CPU, 40 core RDNA 3.5 GPU. 64GB of LPDDR5X RAM @
| 256 GB/s + stunning OLED" - Easily done as a pc build.
|
| In a world where you can get this laptop with Linux, there's a
| new set of trade-offs -
|
| - be prepared for a LOT of things not working because the size of
| the market for extremely expensive configurations with high end
| CPU + GPU + RAM + Monitor + Linux is practically zero.
|
| - when closing the lid and walking to the coffee shop will the
| battery be dead before you finish your coffee? probably
|
| - will a new GPU/GPU architecture be a headache for the first X
| years...yes, and if you want to replace every 2 years, I guess
| you will have a permanent headache.
|
| - will updating graphics drivers be a problem? yes
|
| - is the text in your "stunning oled" going to be rendered
| correctly in linux? probably not
|
| - will the wifi chip work in linux? maybe
|
| - will all the ports work/behave? probably not
|
| - will your machine perform worse than a high end PC that cost
| 1/2 as much from 3 years ago... yes.
| wmf wrote:
| I think the point of him making his own laptop is that he would
| fix all those software problems.
| energy123 wrote:
| Is his build even possible today in a laptop?
|
| In a desktop, you would need a top of the line threadripper for
| that 256GB/s of memory bandwidth.
|
| Consumer grade Zen 5 desktops reach only about 80GB/s in real
| world testing, with a theoretical max of slightly over 100GB/s.
| dinosaurdynasty wrote:
| AMD Strix Halo (a consumer mobile processor) has theoretical
| support for 256GB/s of memory bandwidth (quad-channel, 8000
| MT/s LPDDR5X, must be soldered, supports 128GB at most).
| fizzynut wrote:
| The memory is shared for the GPU, so you should probably
| compare with desktop GPU, so 1-2TB/s.
| npn wrote:
| Yes. OneXfly apex. Amd 395+, oled panel.
| chungy wrote:
| > - when closing the lid and walking to the coffee shop will
| the battery be dead before you finish your coffee? probably
|
| Why probably? Going to sleep on lid close is common enough,
| it's even the default in all OSes/DEs. If you turn off sleep-
| on-close and drain the battery, that's on you.
|
| > - is the text in your "stunning oled" going to be rendered
| correctly in linux? probably not
|
| > - will the wifi chip work in linux? maybe
|
| > - will all the ports work/behave? probably not
|
| These seem like odd things to doubt, when Framework has a
| perfectly working system for Linux and has been doing it for
| years. No hardware in their systems is unsupported in Linux.
|
| Notably the critique of Framework in the original blog post
| does not offer these doubts. They are focused instead on the
| hardware design and tradeoffs between upgradability and uniform
| bodies. Those are real tradeoffs and Framework cannot solve
| them all without abandoning the upgradability part.
| fizzynut wrote:
| High end machines which can easily pull 100W+ are just bad in
| general for portability - running at max will last less than
| 1Hr, will the sleep mode actually work reliably and not drain
| battery? - this is an issue in most OSes/laptops. Will video
| playback in the browser not be properly hardware accelerated
| and drain the battery super fast? yes linux has issues here.
|
| Framework were explicitly ruled out, so: Integrated Oled -
| you really want some integration, If you can't set the
| brightness, goodbye lifespan, oled also have many different
| subpixel layouts which can make the text blurry/fringe, maybe
| you wont notice but then why buy an oled in the first place
| for work? While a monitor will definitely have pixel
| shift/burn in protection built in, if integrating a panel
| into the laptop without putting in any work, that support
| might not come out of the box
|
| Even if it was a framework, everything is distro specific,
| but I think you only need to know that a "dock megathread"
| exists to realise that "perfectly working" is a stretch and a
| lot of people have hardware they can't connect and doesn't
| work.
|
| That said if I was to buy a laptop - a mid end framework I
| just do the basics with would probably be great.
| johnhamlin wrote:
| I've been feeling exact way for a while now. Tahoe brought it to
| a head. I just want a portable machine I truly own and control
| that doesn't suck. Why is that so much to ask?
| tayo42 wrote:
| I get the complaint about naming but hp is different then apple.
| They sell a variety of configurations and one isn't neccesarily
| better then any other.
| daemonologist wrote:
| I'm holding out a little bit of hope that Valve puts out a laptop
| - the Steam Deck has notably good power management for a linux
| device of its class (and I've even heard of people using them as
| laptop replacements), though the idle power is still higher than
| a Macbook. They're going to have made a desktop, gaming handheld,
| and VR device; why not one more?
| mcny wrote:
| Maybe they will spend more than five cents and get a decent
| hinge? I would love to support Valve if the build quality is
| good and the price is decent.
| viraptor wrote:
| What would be the reason for their laptop to exist? People on
| the move get the steamdeck. Others get the GabeCube. Based on
| the steam hardware stats / graphics cards, there's very little
| laptop usage. I'm not sure there's enough market to get them
| interested.
| gpm wrote:
| College students playing video games in class? Also in dorm
| rooms where they don't have space for a whole
| monitor/keyboard/mouse setup.
|
| But yeah seems like a game adjacent market... Which might be
| fine but isn't there MO.
| daemonologist wrote:
| The reason would probably have to be because the employees
| themselves want such a device; maybe there could be some
| angle of having an ARM dev machine for the Steam Frame. I
| agree that it seems unlikely though.
| kevinherron wrote:
| One model/configuration will never work because developers are
| awful, picky customers.
|
| You'll lose 90,000 of your 100,000 with one or more little
| nitpicks.
|
| Probably 50% right off the bat because you chose a keyboard with
| or without a numpad.
|
| Another huge chunk because you chose the wrong screen (Retina
| resolution? Low resolution? Refresh rate?)
|
| Too bad, because I want this. Or at least the version of it I
| have in my head :)
| miningape wrote:
| Apple / macbooks seem to be doing fine
| chungy wrote:
| The blog is premised on the idea that Apple and MacBook are
| not doing fine.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| The reason of course being the awful software, not the
| hardware options. He makes that abundantly clear in the
| text.
| miningape wrote:
| You missed my point, the original comment is stating that
| the market for such a device doesn't exist because
| developers are too finicky and customisation focussed.
|
| As a counter example - look at macbooks which are about as
| un-customisable as they come, but a large portion of
| developers use them. Meaning the market exists even if it's
| currently dominated by Apple (which as you/the post points
| out is slipping)
| prmoustache wrote:
| Not everybody use/choose macbook though.
|
| Having said that I do believe that many brands have way
| too mamy SKU and I widh they would be more opinionated on
| what they believe is better for their customers while
| maintaining clear and strong ethics (reliability should
| be #priority)
| tensegrist wrote:
| that they're not doing fine _software_ -wise
| breve wrote:
| Follow the Framework model. Make the hardware user
| configurable, maintainable, and upgradable.
| jockm wrote:
| I mostly think of when geohot wanted to make his own RISC-V core
| and cranked out some basic verilog. It was incomplete and barely
| commented, and never touched again. I suspect we are going to get
| a few blog posts of analysis and then he moves on to something
| else
| jonatron wrote:
| I think you missed the last paragraph.
| jedbrooke wrote:
| > Consumer electronics naming is very simple. Make a good product
| with a simple name. "iPhone", "comma", "Z Fold". Then every year
| or two, add one to the number of that product. If it's a small
| refresh, you can add a letter after the number. "2 3 3X 4" "4 4s
| 5 5s 6 ..." "2 3 4 5 6 7" Why is this so hard for companies like
| HP?
|
| Oh man I feel this every time there's a games console launch. I
| still have no idea what the latest Xbox is called but Sony gets
| it right with "Playstation <N>"
|
| Apple loses some points here since every macbook from like 2007
| until 2020 was just called "Macbook pro" with no year officially
| in the name so you have to be really careful when eg looking at
| used listings for macbooks. But since the M1 it's been good with
| M<1-5>
| mikestorrent wrote:
| We could have had Xbox 720, 1080... but no. xbox 1 x one one x
| triple X amsterdam edition.
| morshu9001 wrote:
| And there are two Xbox Ones
| systemtest wrote:
| Xbox One Kinect, Xbox One non-Kinect, Xbox One S with disc
| drive, Xbox One S All-Digital Edition, Xbox One X
|
| And then you have the various drive options, 500GB, 1TB,
| 2TB, game bundles, day one edition. We are talking about
| dozens of variants.
| rcbdev wrote:
| I suspect they were referring to the first Xbox. It used
| to be colloquially referred to as "Xbox One" before
| Microsoft decided on their piss-poor naming scheme after
| the 360.
| Narishma wrote:
| Those aren't really good names either, IMO. Even the 360 was
| just OK. They should just have gone with Xbox 2. Or Xbox 3
| and skipped a number if they really were worried about
| lagging behind PlayStation as it's sometimes alleged.
| linguae wrote:
| On the flipside, there were the days of the Power Macintosh
| 6100, 7500, 8500, 9600, and other models. It's very easy to
| look up different models using these names, and there was also
| logic to the naming scheme, but it was confusing for people new
| to Macs to figure out, and this was back in the 1990s when
| there were still large amounts of people in the developed world
| who never owned a personal computer.
|
| Once Steve Jobs returned, he replaced the product numbering
| scheme with a quadrant: consumer desktop (iMac), consumer
| laptop (iBook), high-end desktop (Power Mac), and high-end
| laptop (PowerBook). The high-end models had a suffix (G3, G4,
| G5), but it got confusing with all the variants (e.g.,
| Wallsteeet vs Lombard vs Pismo PowerBook G3, various revisions
| of Titanium and Aluminum PowerBook G4, etc.)
| zahlman wrote:
| > On the flipside, there were the days of the Power Macintosh
| 6100, 7500, 8500, 9600, and other models. It's very easy to
| look up different models using these names, and there was
| also logic to the naming scheme, but it was confusing for
| people new to Macs to figure out, and this was back in the
| 1990s when there were still large amounts of people in the
| developed world who never owned a personal computer.
|
| Nokia model numbers (and "series" numbers, too) in the 00s
| were far worse.
| pjmlp wrote:
| What to expect, when Microsoft decides to do stupid things like
| renaming .NET Core into .NET 5, thus everyone that doesn't pay
| attention to Microsoft world keeps thinking .NET is Windows
| only, as the .NET Framework was always known as plain .NET in
| most circles.
| ThunderSizzle wrote:
| I can't tell you how many people are confused that (1)
| Microsoft dropped "Core" from .NET 5+, and that .NET 4.8 and
| .NET 8 are not the same thing.
|
| Microsoft jumped from .NET Core 3 to .Net (Core) 5 to avoid
| people conflating .NET Core 4 with .NET Framework 4.
|
| Now tech adjacent people in my world, including people from
| Microsoft, think .NET Core 8 and .NET Framrwork 4.8 refer to
| the same version.
|
| Luckily that problem will go away as we do our now biannual
| ritual of upgrading .NET versions, frustratingly.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Easy, do you want links to podcast interviews from .NET
| team members where they mention this still being an issue
| with .NET adoption outside traditional Microsoft shops.
|
| For example, see Mandy Mantiquila interview with Nick
| Chapsas, if I remember correctly it is one of them.
| chrisandchris wrote:
| You know as a company that you have gone out of the ability to
| create something if you come up first with name changes of
| existing products. Looking at you, Office (or whatever your
| name is today).
| scrollaway wrote:
| Google Workspace hasn't changed its name in a few years now.
| Do you think it's due for a change or has it finally sobered
| up?
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| I have no idea what that is. Is it the Google suite of
| office tools or something?
| scrollaway wrote:
| It's google's b2b offering (suite of tools including
| gmail, google docs, drive etc). It's an Office 365
| competitor and changed name more times than I can
| remember. GSuite, Google Apps, Google Apps for Work,
| Google Apps for Business...
| ndr42 wrote:
| This reminds me of the parody from 20 years ago of what would
| happen if Microsoft would re-design the iPod packaging -
| including the name of the product. It seems that nothing has
| changed.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUXnJraKM3k
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| I admit that this design is not the most aesthetically
| pleasing one, but it really contains all the relevant
| information - which in my opinion cannot be said about the
| Apple packaging.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| If I dare to ask, why do you care so much about naming ?
|
| It's something that has always bothered me in reviews as well.
| To me a product is primarily supposed to be used, and I also
| don't want to buy a new one every 6 months.
|
| For instance I like my headphones very much, been using them
| for 4 years now. I did a ton of research and read a bunch of
| reviews before buying them, and to keep the exact and unique
| product name somewhere for research, but from the point they
| were delivered to me whatever they're named has been completely
| irrelevant. Same for my computer or phone, I could check the
| marketing name, and there is skew number somewhere on the
| product, but in my everyday life it's completely useless.
|
| I'd argue having a impossible to remember but perfectly unique
| and SEO friendly names wins over using common names like Apple
| does, for my purposes at least.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Maybe because I want to know if Xbox ASS is better than Xbox
| PEE without having a manual on my hands? Or what Microsoft
| Surface pro ai copilot means?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| When you go looking for a car will you buy the Peugeot 3008
| because it has a higher number than the 208 ? Or will you
| do research, go to the company site and look at the product
| description, compare the specs and make your opinion about
| what best fits your needs ?
|
| Right now there's about 5 lines of Surface devices with
| each their very specific purpose and tradeoffs. I'd be
| shocked at someone buying one solely based on the how the
| name sounds or what they assume it means without looking at
| the actual product pages.
| wiseowise wrote:
| > When you go looking for a car will you buy the Peugeot
| 3008 because it has a higher number than the 208 ? Or
| will you do research, go to the company site and look at
| the product description, compare the specs and make your
| opinion about what best fits your needs ?
|
| You're comparing model to generation, not sure what's
| that supposed to mean.
|
| Yes, I will buy Peugeot 208 over 207 because it is
| obviously newer. And the point isn't that I'm buying
| solely because of a number, the point is that it is much
| more intuitive to have simple naming over "jerk my co,
| pilot, ai".
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > You're comparing model to generation, not sure what's
| that supposed to mean.
|
| If you can accepts different schemes depending on the
| maker's intent, I really don't get why you're distressed
| by XBox naming different console lines with different
| monikers. I guess it all comes down to whether you like
| the name or not, and there was nothing to argue on from
| the very start.
|
| > Yes, I will buy Peugeot 208 over 207 because it is
| obviously newer
|
| That's a disturbing logic to me, but you do you.
| wiseowise wrote:
| > That's a disturbing logic to me, but you do you.
|
| Buying 2025 model over 2014 is truly disturbing.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| A Peugeot 208 is around 17k euros. Throwing that money at
| a dealer solely because it's one more than the number
| before is disturbing, yes.
|
| Edit: When you're saying the 207 is from 2014, you're
| already doing your research past looking at the number.
| I'm not even sure what we're still discussing.
| hamdingers wrote:
| Cars are a poor analogy because model year works as a
| version number. I'd rather have a 2025 Peugeot whatever
| than a 2015.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Do you actually want the 2025 touchscreen version above
| the 2015 all physical button model for instance ?
|
| And what if it's still sold but at a third of the price ?
| "it's newer" is the main decision factor when it's
| throwaway money. Otherwise you're thinking a bit longer
| about what to buy for 17k euros.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| My favorite from Apple is "the new iPad" that they used to
| refer to the 3rd gen iPad.
| roflchoppa wrote:
| I hate that iPad, it's still on my shelf.
| kobbs wrote:
| The screen is great. There are third party driver boards to
| use them as external displays.
| 6510 wrote:
| I like the joke where windows 9,..10,..11 would eventually give
| us windows 1995 again.
|
| HP is like they assigned good people to the right task, had
| everyone make a draft, pulled it from their hands and declared
| it finished. The combined drafts do not resemble a product so
| they also have someone make a draft solution for that problem.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > Oh man I feel this every time there's a games console launch.
| I still have no idea what the latest Xbox is called but Sony
| gets it right with "Playstation <N>"
|
| Not so easy: even for old PlaysStations, there existed
| different versions:
|
| 1. PlayStation, PSOne, PlayStation Classic
|
| 2. PlayStation 2, PlayStation 2 Slim
|
| 3. PlayStation 3, PlayStation 3 Slim, PlayStation 3 Super-Slim
|
| 4. PlayStation 4, PlayStation 4 Slim, PlayStation 4 Pro
|
| 5. PlayStation 5, PlayStation 5 Digital Edition, PlayStation 5
| Slim, PlayStation 5 Digital Edition Slim, PlayStation 5 Pro
|
| And then Sony used the PlayStation branding for other consoles,
| too:
|
| - PlayStation Portable
|
| - PlayStation Vita
|
| - PlayStation Portal
|
| - PlayStation TV (which is also called PlayStation Vita TV)
| esrauch wrote:
| I think what you listed matches with what he suggested, they
| just have words instead of a letter for the variants. Which
| is actually better in this example because the "Slim", "Pro"
| and "Digital" mean what you would expect them to mean here,
| versus the "a" in "Pixel 9a" in somewhat obtuse.
|
| Dell is messing this up badly even though they almost got the
| strategy, "Dell Pro 14 Premium" is a real product and "Dell
| Pro Max 14 Plus" is also a real product, there's no way
| anyone knows what that means.
| amne wrote:
| why are you so deliberately not getting the point?
|
| if I ask you to choose between xbox 360, xbox one and xbox
| series s which one is the latest?
|
| and then if I ask you to choose between ps2, 3, 4 and 5 which
| one is the latest?
|
| what do you think are your chances to get it right for xbox?
| tapoxi wrote:
| Sony never used the names "Slim" or "Super Slim" because the
| product was the same and ran the same software.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Microsoft did that because it thought you were too stupid to
| understand that the Xbox _2_ was the same generation of the ps
| _3_.
| dehrmann wrote:
| The real answer is that you either rename the product right
| around version 10 (because 17 is too big for iPhone versions)
| or you use the year like sports video games.
| bloppe wrote:
| I agree about some criticisms of the framework. I think they
| could do away with the plug modules and just go all in on usb-c.
| I don't mind the occasional dongle for HDMI. I also would prefer
| a thinner screen bezel, even if that means it's not swappable
| either.
|
| But having easy access to internal hardware for upgrades is
| pretty huge. Rather than blowing 1-2k on a new machine every few
| years, it's just $200-500 for more RAM and a better CPU (assuming
| prices go back to normal in a reasonable amount of time)
| Octoth0rpe wrote:
| > I think they could do away with the plug modules and just go
| all in on usb-c. I don't mind the occasional dongle for HDMI.
|
| Strong agree. After all, their plug modules are really just
| dongles that are integrated into the body, which makes them
| worse IMO. More expensive, model-specific, etc.
| synalx wrote:
| And a major consumer of space, because they have to
| accommodate bigger ports even if they're only doing USB-C
| pass-through.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Frameworks (laptops) are all in on usb-c. That's the only port
| they come with. The modules are just type-c dongles. And they
| are too small - the official ethernet one hangs outside the
| body.
| mft_ wrote:
| Agree; the choosing ports thing is a gimmick. These days, one
| video/charging-capable USB-C on each side, plus a USB-A and
| maybe an SD slot somewhere are enough for most use cases.
| simmo9000 wrote:
| How much would you pay? Seriously.
|
| There is market demand, but at what price? Hardware is a thin
| margin product.
|
| Is it a few off the shelf parts placed in a custom CNCed block of
| aluminium or is it engineered, from the ground up, to suit
| purpose.
|
| Getting an idea of what would people pay for such a product is
| step one.
|
| 5k?
| barfoure wrote:
| George is probably too young to remember when we thought OS X was
| hot shit because it was UNIX compliant. That meant a lot back
| then.
|
| However over the years they dropped the ball big time. Arch may
| be the new hotness but BSD was the once (and hopefully future)
| king.
| linguae wrote:
| Having an iBook or a PowerBook with Mac OS X was a big deal at
| a time when driver support for Linux was less commonplace than
| it is today. Even today there are driver issues with Linux on
| some laptops.
|
| Part of the reason I bought a Core Duo MacBook the summer after
| my freshman year of college was because Apple was the only
| vendor I knew where I could purchase a fully-supported Unix
| laptop. It could also run Microsoft Office without having to
| dual-boot with Windows, though ironically I ended up just using
| NeoOffice (a Mac fork of OpenOffice), the Apple iWork suite,
| and LaTeX during my college years.
| Teknomadix wrote:
| geohot: _" I want a laptop with a high-end AMD chip, great Linux
| power management, good docs, solid build, and a normal name"_
|
| My brother in christ, the ThinkPad T14s Gen 5 AMD exists. Zen 5,
| aluminum chassis, legendary Linux support, actual power state
| documentation. They been doing this for 30 years. Dude, you're
| bikeshedding a product that's been sitting in the enterprise
| aisle this whole time
|
| ThinkPads have been the Linux laptop for decades precisely
| because of the things he's wishing for. Public ACPI/power
| management docs, upstream kernel support, and AMD options with
| sane power profiles. He even admits the ZBook touchpad is fine
| but fails to acknowledge ThinkPads have had excellent trackpoints
| + multi-touchpads since forever.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Link to the one that's so great, especially a Macbook
| contender?
|
| He has a $2000+ Thinkpad X1 and it was basically his least
| favorite one in his lineup from last week except for the
| Framework's bad display:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M96O0Sn1LXA
|
| The snark doesn't seem warranted.
|
| Edit: The laptop you're talking about is also 14" 1920x1200 or
| am I lost in Lenovo's awful website? A 14" Macbook is
| 3024x1964. The more I look, the worse it gets, especially after
| you hyped it like that.
| jclulow wrote:
| I recently replaced my aging X1C7 with a T14s AMD and it has
| been quite nice!
| antonkochubey wrote:
| Not sure what laptop you confused it with, but T14s Gen 5 is
| sold with Intel CPUs only.
| encom wrote:
| >the trade-off I'd prefer is 0 upgradability or customizability
| in exchange for less weight and more polish
|
| This mentality is ruining everything. Not just computers, but
| _everything_ including cars and appliances. It 's disappointing -
| I thought geohot was more of a hacker. If he really wants a glued
| together, disposable piece of crap, you can't do better than
| Apple, and then just tolerate the OS and maybe VM Linux.
| ruuda wrote:
| Dell XPS used to be like this, but unfortunately Dell
| discontinued them :'(
| procaryote wrote:
| The framework model is the reasonable approach to people being
| finnicky about their laptop specs. You can't sustain "I want it
| just so" and "it needs to be a cnc-machined glued together brick,
| engineered to the last gramme" at the same time, without a step
| change in how we build hardware, but the framework comes pretty
| close
|
| If linux power management got a bit better, and there was a good
| arm chip, it would be a great machine. Now it's just pretty good
| maccard wrote:
| > If linux power management got a bit better
|
| Honestly this is the thing that holds me back from using not a
| mac. My MacBook is always at the same battery level when I open
| it as it was when I closed it. My windows laptop regularly
| decides to do _something_ overnight and is dead when I try to
| use it, about once a week.
| viraptor wrote:
| Maybe soon; https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-
| Laptop-13-gets-ARM-p...
| class3shock wrote:
| The power management is one of my biggest issues with my
| Framework 16 but I am hoping it gets better over time with
| newer linux releases as it has for other laptops I've had.
| bn-l wrote:
| But the trackpad, the rigidity, the screen wobble, the battery
| life.
|
| It's annoying. I wish I could just buy a framework and stop
| this boring chore. But there's nothing out there right now.
| mft_ wrote:
| And, sadly, also the price. I'd also love to get one but when
| I last needed a new laptop it was about 60% more expensive
| than the similarly-spaced Zenbook OLED I bought instead.
| mghackerlady wrote:
| Different priorities I suppose but I'd absolutely hate using that
| laptop. I want something designed to last, not be thrown out in a
| few years. IDK when it became cool to just expect everyone to
| have the money or care to buy a new <thneed> every few years. I
| guess it makes more money but since that seems to be the only
| thing companies with a marketing budget do people have forgotten
| there's an actual market for well built electronics that will at
| least survive 5 years
| forty wrote:
| I think the kind of laptop this person wishes should simply be
| made illegal to make. We cannot sustain having all electric
| devices being thrown after a year or two, these things need to
| last, to be repairable and make it easy to grab pieces and
| materials when they die anyway
| Yokolos wrote:
| > I don't care one bit about upgradability or customizability.
| After a year or two, I'm happy to throw it out and buy a new
| one. It's not like upgradability is a bad thing, but it usually
| comes with tradeoffs to weight and power draw, and I'd rather
| it all be in one solid package glued together. And I don't like
| customizability because I like when all the testing and polish
| work is put into one configuration.
|
| Jesus christ. What a wasteful and selfish way to look at
| things.
| wjnc wrote:
| To defend OP somewhat: his throw out should be someone else's
| pre-owned and then we are square.
|
| Not in defense: This is a customer who sees itself as an
| ultra pro user that only wants the best on all dimensions
| regardless of economics. Nice that there are about a few
| hundred of these customers in the world. This is a market
| that doesn't exist and frankly, give this customer their wish
| and they only have other or more wishes.
| svrtknst wrote:
| not only does OP imagine a powerful customer base, theyre
| all aligned enough that one configuration fits all. im
| doubtful
| wiseowise wrote:
| It literally works this way already, it's called MacBook.
| hamdingers wrote:
| The MacBook currently has two models, each available in
| two sizes, each size has three to six default
| configurations. There are dozens of MacBooks before you
| even get into the customization options.
| rikafurude21 wrote:
| Selfish how, because he clearly does not say that
| upgradability or customizability are bad things? Its also not
| like hes proposing something that isnt reality for most
| manufacturers, especially Apple.
| dcanelhas wrote:
| I think the selfishness here is related to being fine with
| generating a pile of electronic waste that becomes a
| problem for everyone else, as long as he can avoid carrying
| a few ounces extra.
|
| It's hard to recycle electronics, because separating
| materials that are chemically bonded together is very labor
| intensive and isn't worth it from the price of aluminum,
| copper, lithium, etc alone.
|
| It would have to cost more to dispose of a laptop for this
| to work out financially.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| You've identified the real problem. This person's
| preferences (and yours and mine) are guided by
| externalities being priced poorly.
|
| If the consumer was responsible for the real cost of
| disposal and someone said "I don't care about repairing
| it" then it wouldn't be selfish at all.
|
| But it's extremely hard to do that. Because if you price
| proper disposal higher you'll just get improperly
| disposed stuff.
|
| A tax on the products to account for this is highly
| regressive. It's a complicated muddle.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| There's no reason such a laptop can't be repairable. Sure, it
| may be harder to do, but that's the tradeoff you choose when
| buying such a device.
|
| The main obstacles to repairability in such devices are
| _intentional_ : part serialization, lack of documentation, and
| so on. Those don't help making the device any more compact or
| easier to manufacture, it's pure greed.
|
| Address those problems and you can happily have your ultra-
| slim, tightly integrated laptop. It may be _slightly_ less
| repairable, but as long as repair isn 't _intentionally_ being
| prevented, life will find a way.
| beeflet wrote:
| There is such a reason: it isn't modular enough for the
| economics to favor repair over replacement, what with the
| economies of scale and that.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Restricting access to documentation, part serialization, or
| restricting OEMs from selling components directly has
| nothing to do with laptop form factor though.
|
| Whether repair of such devices is economically viable is
| one thing and that's up to the market to decide, but making
| repair intentionally harder is a _choice_ of the
| manufacturer and has nothing to do with how slim the laptop
| is.
| ACCount37 wrote:
| The reason is simple: corporate control. It's not a
| _good_ reason.
|
| If only you could take a big old stick and beat the
| "control freak" tendencies out of all the major
| corporations out there.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Sorry I wasn't clear, my point is: that reason is
| completely separate from a laptop's form factor or method
| of construction.
|
| You can have a somewhat repairable laptop even if it's
| slim and tightly integrated, and you can also have a
| completely unrepairable one even if all components are
| modular and accessible but then use strong cryptography
| to authenticate to each other.
|
| Form factor is not the primary reason current tech is
| hard/impossible to repair, though the industry loves that
| people believe so, since it diverts attention from their
| _intentional_ efforts to hinder repair.
| ACCount37 wrote:
| It's a major reason. Back when TVs were made of tubes,
| you could expect any tech-savvy guy to be able to learn
| how to go in there and swap the tubes out.
|
| Nowadays? A techpriest that can take apart Apple's iPhone
| stacked PCB assemblies, replace large BGA components in
| there, and then put them back together and have it work
| is a rare specimen. And "rare" means "expensive".
|
| A hour of labor of someone who does neurosurgery on
| electronics isn't going to be cheap.
|
| Not that Apple has any good reasons to make it even
| harder on the madmen who attempt and learn such repairs.
| rienbdj wrote:
| why are Apple (Foxconn) assembly workers paid so little?
| ACCount37 wrote:
| Because they put assembly in countries with cheap labor,
| and optimize the assembly process so that most workers
| don't have to perform any complex operations, or any
| operations that involve thinking.
|
| Things like PCB manufacturing? Putting those BGA chips
| where they go? Done entirely by machines.
|
| Now, a notable exception to this rule is the "rework" or
| "remanufacturing" lines - where actual human specialists
| take devices that failed QC, or used devices, diagnose
| them, and bring them up to standard.
|
| Those can be very involved. But official manufacturing
| still has strict limits on how far are they willing to go
| - and unofficial refurbishment lines have them beat on
| repair complexity.
| qwertytyyuu wrote:
| Heck most people won't be upgrading every few years, the m1
| Macs are still plenty good today, it sounds like this guy just
| wants a MacBook Pro that runs highly tuned Unix based OS that
| is not macOS
| wiseowise wrote:
| Did you even read it?
|
| He says so in the first paragraph:
|
| > My dream laptop is simple, a MacBook with Linux, supported
| by a company that is user aligned.
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| Well, top performance electronics is usually going to be
| more expensive than the more nominal options.
|
| And if there's not enough to go around _to begin with_ , it
| might as well be a niche of some kind, you can't expect
| everyone to choose the most expensive option by any means.
|
| Now if the user base is nowhere near the majority, and
| you're already in a high-dollar niche anyway because of the
| desired performance level, might as well escalate from the
| merely expensive, to the glaringly overpriced in addition.
| That's a well-worn playbook.
|
| When the sweet spot is hit with loads of customers striving
| to afford the top-shelf items, while in actuality everyone
| is _settling_ for a shadow of what should be offered by the
| _biggest_ business machines companies, it 's not the
| hardware that's the problem. Too few people are grumbling
| and accept they just have to make do with what they have.
|
| Most buyers do not use consumer electronics as money-making
| machines, the genres and cost-structures have undergone
| generations of evolution to be optimized for _consumption
| of the electronics_ , as actually opposed to the business
| machines they once were.
|
| If you want to use yours as a money-making machine, it will
| probably pay for itself even if the purchase price is a
| small multiple of the popular budget consumer version. But
| way more money is being put into making it difficult to
| tell the difference, more money than most small companies
| are even worth.
|
| >supported by a company that is user aligned.
|
| Interestingly, you can't buy that with money, even from the
| most financially-oriented of companies.
| maccard wrote:
| I agree with him. My personal laptop is an m1 MacBook Pro, and
| 5 years on it's still a better experience than my work laptop
| which is a high spec dell with an i9 and 32GB ram. I'm more
| likely to chuck the dell than upgrade it because whatever
| combination of stuff it's doing just doesn't work.
|
| Give me something solid that will last 5 -6 years with a
| serviceable (I don't care if it's glued or torx'ed or whatever
| in, just as long as it's replaceable) battery, and I don't care
| if the RAM and SSD is soldered to the chipset.
|
| In the past I've replaced spinning rust with SSDs and that's
| given that machine a lease of life but those kinds of upgrades
| don't really exist anymore - adding an extra 8GB ram isn't
| going to turn my stupid dell machine into something that works.
| hshdhdhj4444 wrote:
| The assumption here is that the MacBook is better because of
| soldering components rather than because Apple simply made a
| better chip and has a better OS than Windows.
|
| Is there a reason to believe that if Apple didn't solder
| memory on, it would make the performance/battery worse, as
| opposed to making the device slightly heavier/bigger?
| ffsm8 wrote:
| Apple Silicon is a slightly customized ARM processor
| soldered onto a main board. That's not the reason for it's
| better performance.
|
| Microsofts support for these is still kinda bad ime, which
| is easily the biggest impact on their battery longevity.
|
| Furthermore, Most super intrusive and performance hindering
| spyware aka antivirus is only deployed on windows, hence it
| gets double-punched by having subpar processor support and
| wastage in the processes running in corporate environments.
| The latter being the biggest performance impact.
|
| These are however all software, not hardware bound issues
| maccard wrote:
| > These are however all software, not hardware bound
| issues
|
| Completely agree, which is why the only part that I
| really care about being replaceable is a battery - the
| hardware from 2017/2018 holds up to most use cases.
| maccard wrote:
| > The assumption here is that the MacBook is better because
| of soldering components rather than because Apple simply
| made a better chip and has a better OS than Windows.
|
| That's your assumption - my point is that _I don 't care as
| long as it's actually good_. The only part I really care
| about is the battery because it has a limited number of
| cycles that is shorter than the lifetime of the rest of the
| components.
| buildbot wrote:
| Yes, if they did not solder on the memory it would use more
| power. The longer the lines are to your DRAM, the more
| impedance there is and you need higher drive power on your
| memory controller. LPDDR has been soldered forever as far
| as I know, though with the introduction of CAMM
| (compression attached memory modules), this has changed. I
| don't know but I would bet money CAMM is still higher power
| for less bandwidth than DRAM packaged on the SoC base die
| or however apples does it.
| Delk wrote:
| There are lots of ways of "just not working" but IME the
| problem with corporate Windows laptops is often the
| enterprise software crap on them rather than the hardware,
| necessarily.
|
| My work laptop with a high(ish)-end AMD laptop CPU and
| reasonable hardware quality drains the battery in a couple of
| hours. It also doesn't feel any faster than my personal
| three-year-old more lightweight (also AMD, same brand)
| laptop. In some cases the private device is faster despite
| its lower specs. Its battery would also easily last 5 times
| longer than the work one, probably, if I used it on the road.
|
| (Incidentally, the poor battery life isn't much of a
| practical concern with the work device either because I need
| to use it at the desk 98% of the time anyway. But I can
| certainly see how crappy software and configurations can make
| using those devices a pain.)
|
| > Give me something solid that will last 5 -6 years with a
| serviceable (I don't care if it's glued or torx'ed or
| whatever in, just as long as it's replaceable) battery, and I
| don't care if the RAM and SSD is soldered to the chipset.
|
| I'm okay with that, even if I'd personally prefer the
| serviceability. But I'm honestly not okay with the idea that
| it's fine to just toss a laptop after two years. I want
| people who do that to get their own planet.
|
| Also, an 8 GB RAM upgrade makes little sense nowadays but a
| 16 -> 48 GB or 32 -> 64 GB or 32 -> 96 GB upgrade can
| actually make an otherwise reasonable device better if the
| amount of RAM becomes a bottleneck.
| maccard wrote:
| > IME the problem with corporate Windows laptops is often
| the enterprise software crap on them rather than the
| hardware, necessarily.
|
| I work for a small org, the laptop was bought from Dell and
| shipped to me. It's running vanilla Windows 11 with OpenVPN
| and Windows Defender, with a decent sized dev drive. There
| are so many issues with it - keypresses being 10-20 seconds
| delayed, random window tearing/partial display updates, the
| machine deciding to ignore sleep and just dying while the
| lid is closed. These aren't things that will be solved by
| replacing the SSD, or the RAM, they're likely CPU (and as a
| result motherboard) replacements.
|
| > Also, an 8 GB RAM upgrade makes little sense nowadays but
| a 16 -> 48 GB or 32 -> 64 GB or 32 -> 96 GB upgrade can
| actually make an otherwise reasonable device better if the
| amount of RAM becomes a bottleneck.
|
| There's practically no devices (framework is the only one
| that comes to mind) that will ship with that little RAM and
| allow an upgrade by that much, even in the desktop space.
| My 2015 Macbook pro (the device before this) has 16GB RAM ,
| giving it an extra 32GB isn't really going to help it much,
| the problem is that it's "i7" is an order of magnitude
| slower than a 3/4 year old replacement device (and
| ironically probably closer to the Intel(r) Core(tm) Ultra 7
| 258V which is in my work machine)
| systemtest wrote:
| Seeing the latest Valve Steam Machine made me disappointed. No
| replaceable GPU, soldered memory, no socketed CPU. I really
| hope Valve isn't going to lead the way for unrepairable gaming
| PCs.
| rienbdj wrote:
| I think valve want other companies to make the hardware in
| the long term. They are just trying to prove / jump start
| demand
| systemtest wrote:
| Yes, and I am afraid that gaming PCs will move from the
| fully modular repairable computers we have today to small
| little boxes where you can only upgrade the SSD.
| andriesm wrote:
| I also want it. I dislike this idea "make it illegal I don't
| want other people to have the freedom to do something I
| dislike". Of you don't like unupgradable products, then don't
| buy them. I like upgradability - apple makes some things like
| the SSD non-uogradeable without much benefit. But many other
| parts gain different benefits when you don't try to make
| everything infinitely upgradable. I really want this non-
| enshittified macbook alternative!!!! Shut up and take my money.
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Electronic devices usually get thrown away because nobody wants
| them anymore because they are obsolete. Having removable RAM
| will do you little good if you can only fit ddr3.
| hellcow wrote:
| That's why you'd want to be able to replace the mainboard,
| screen, keyboard, speakers, trackpad, etc., and not just the
| RAM. Like https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform, but
| presumably easier for non-technical people to use.
| bluescrn wrote:
| Easily replaceable batteries would certainly extend the
| useful life of many devices, though.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| The half-life of Apple kit is so high, they are arguably a lot
| more sustainable than their repairable PC counterparts.
|
| Apple laptops I have that boot include a 2007 iBook (my folks
| used it until this Summer and then bank websites would stop
| working with the Chrome browser they could get working on it),
| which I'll be putting a BSD or Linux distro on over Christmas,
| a 2012 Intel MBP that has Linux on it and a couple of 2015-2017
| era MBPs that I inherited via one means or another.
|
| I'm typing this on an M4 MacBook Air I picked up cheap during
| Black Friday sales. I fully expect it to still be functional in
| 10 years.
|
| I don't think I've ever had a PC laptop last close to that.
| 2b3a51 wrote:
| Posting from a Thinkpad X61s laptop (Jan 2008) running
| Trisquel Linux 11.
|
| (I take your point that I would not be able to participate in
| this discussion using the original operating system that came
| with this laptop).
| kalessin wrote:
| Apple's support for MacOS can been shorter than their
| laptops longevity (the longevity of their laptops got quite
| bad when then tried to make them as thin as an usb-c port).
| So Linux support is also important there imo, and as the
| original post pointed out because Apple makes it so hard to
| for Linux to support their hardware, long-term software
| support may be something to think about before buying a
| MacBook.
| mmcnl wrote:
| It doesn't have to be thrown out. It can be re-used by someone
| else. Just build durable electronics. It will last a decade
| easily. Upgradeable laptops are actually less sustainable:
| people buy not 1 or 2 laptops, but 1.6 laptops: effectively
| throwing away 0.6 laptop.
|
| Also I see no reason why a non-upgradeable laptop would also be
| non-repairable.
| icemelt8 wrote:
| > I'm typing this blog on a HP ZBook Ultra G1a 14. Question to
| HP, who names this crap? Why do these companies insist on having
| the most confusing product lineups and names.
|
| The reason is that they are not serious companies, this is why
| anything other than a real macbook and with a real macOS is not
| worth having spent time on.
| nkko wrote:
| The naming fails at big cos is simply caused by having internal
| branding teams that need to justify their existence.
| barrkel wrote:
| No, it's more like they sell to a bunch of verticals and they
| have checklist-orientated market segmentation where they can
| eke out a little extra profit selling a specific line to a
| specific industry because they need a specific doodad or
| certification.
| greenchair wrote:
| This has got to be part of it at least for some industries. I
| never understood why marketing teams would keep things so
| convoluted on purpose. Seemed like the exact opposite of what
| they should be doing.
| barrkel wrote:
| Of course different strokes for different folks. My favorite
| laptop at this point is a terminal for my home workstation which
| is far more powerful than anything mobile. That means I
| prioritize decent graphical performance, OLED screen, long
| battery life, and I don't really mind too much using WSL in
| Windows. All my development doesn't really happen locally any
| more.
| kmac_ wrote:
| There's plenty of good hardware outside the Apple world. Heck,
| whenever I get convinced to try Apple hardware or software, its
| quirks and obvious glitches put me off. Input lag is the topmost
| issue. It immediately washes off the "quality" impression. But I
| understand that Apple users are used to that and don't notice
| such issues.
| maccard wrote:
| What would you recommend?
|
| > input lag is the topmost issue
|
| IME this is a massive problem on windows and android and apple
| actually gets it right. They occasionally have stupid
| animations but those animations are responsive and trigger
| immediately. I don't experience 3-5 second stalls (seriously
| the share dialog on android is a disgrace, and the windows
| start menu has become the least reliable part of the OS), and
| the input devices track to on screen movements - something I
| can't say for win/android.
| lostdog wrote:
| Yup, the "switch desktops/spaces" input lag is the absolute
| worst on Mac. It's remarkable that Apple has a reputation of
| being good at UX.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > Input lag is the topmost issue
|
| What do you mean? I haven't daily driven a Mac in almost five
| years now. I mainly run Linux and occasionally Windows on
| regular PCs. Whenever I open a MacBook, the first thing I
| notice is how _reactive_ it feels. Sure, I could do without the
| animations, but I think that 's a different issue. This
| impression is all the more pronounced if I'd been using Windows
| just before, but that's probably because Linux is a pretty bare
| i3 setup.
| kmac_ wrote:
| I mean mouse (Magic Mouse, precisely) and trackpad lag. The
| Magic Mouse also had random stuttering, a really horrible
| experience on brand new hardware. There were also other pain
| points. Returning to "standard" PC hardware and Linux was a
| real bliss.
| Lio wrote:
| I could agree that Apple's software is a big trade off but the
| hardware seems fine.
|
| I don't think much has changed since the 16" and 14" MacBook Pros
| came out and both had better hardware than was previously on
| offer.
|
| IMHO they got the formula right with the 14" and I'm glad they've
| stuck with it.
|
| All I could ask for is maybe faster GPU or TPU and more memory.
| Possibly the ability to use an eGPU again.
|
| Otherwise it's fine. I worry much more about macOS and what
| they've done with the UI.
| layer8 wrote:
| I just don't use laptops. My employer never required me to use
| one, and with remote logins and WFH there is also little need for
| mobility. A desktop setup is necessary for good ergonomics
| anyway, and then you may as well use a desktop computer. In a
| pinch, I can use an iPad with remote desktop on the go, but the
| need rarely arises.
| npodbielski wrote:
| I agree but as the HN post few months ago about a guy who uses
| glasses to connect to his phone as an external screen, this
| would be great. Having ability to work outside and have a nice
| big screen... thought of working in the summer outside and have
| a daily dose of vitamin D... Working entire days in my office
| in my house is comfortable but kind of sad. When you are
| finally done it is late and sun is setting already.
| layer8 wrote:
| I'm lucky to have flexible working hours, so I can take
| breaks during the day and go out for errands, for a walk or
| bike ride.
|
| Working outside in the sun sounds nice, but display/glasses
| technology isn't quite there yet for that, and I'd still want
| an ergonomic chair and proper ergonomic keyboard on a stable
| surface (table), for any extended work.
| bn-l wrote:
| That was a very interesting post / comment (the XR glasses
| guy). I wonder if that setup is still holding up. Glasses
| guy, if you're reading this, can you comment please?
| franga2000 wrote:
| > After a year or two, I'm happy to throw it out and buy a new
| one.
|
| Sincerely, fuck you.
|
| Nobody with this mentality should be designing anything. I know
| many people at most hardware companies think like that and they
| can go fuck themselves too. But at least they have the excuse of
| getting fired if they make things too good. You don't.
| andriesm wrote:
| If someone makes a linux laptop that is as good as the a bleeding
| edge apple macbook air, it is shut-up&take-my-money.
|
| But it is hard to imagine a company spending the time to smooth a
| linux config on their hardware config and make sure it reaches
| the "just works" that apple has!
|
| Boy would I love it! Please, someone do this! Getting tired of
| Apple's walled garden become ever more locked up and
| enshittification.
| listic wrote:
| I doubt there will _ever_ be a market for a device with _this
| specific_ (or many other kinds of other specific) set of
| requirements, especially if one insists on that 'last bit of
| polish'. Short of fully developed molecular nanotechnology or
| similar, allowing economic manufacturing of bespoke hardware in
| single copies, which is another world from the one we live in, I
| don't see such wishes come true, so the author (and others like
| him) will have to settle for something else.
| eertami wrote:
| Surely OLED is bad for a productivity device due to poor text
| rendering. For games or media, sure.
| throw12945 wrote:
| OLED doesn't support subpixel rendering, but if the resolution
| is high enough, this doesn't matter (Apple doesn't use it
| either, and text looks great on their devices, but not if you
| use external low-dpi monitors).
| bn-l wrote:
| Is burn in still a concern?
| throw12945 wrote:
| Add ECC memory to the list. For some reason, laptops with ECC
| memory support are incredibly difficult to find now, and so are
| the ECC DDR5 SODIMMs, even before the current price hike. I want
| to have a rock solid mobile workstation, that isn't necessarily
| more powerful than a midrange consumer gaming laptop, that would
| show warnings and errors before corrupting my data.
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| > I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels Apple's quality is
| degrading.
|
| Tbh I don't really feel this way. We all agree hands down that
| Macbook has the best hardware. Apple Silicon has been a huge
| success for speed and power consumption. I haven't used the
| newest macOS but like the butterfly keyboard and touch bar I
| assume they'll work out (or fix by reverting) the issues. It's
| probably not even that bad. Sonoma is still receiving security
| updates so I'm good for now.
|
| And most of the things that people want in a non-MacBook laptop
| are still a few years before falling off patent.
|
| I'm fine waiting and playing around with Framework or Steam
| machines until then if I need another hobby.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| The problem is, laptop companies don't "make laptops". They are
| big machines that puts parts together in the right configuration
| and call them "laptops". No thought goes into it. They are
| indistinguishable from any other deep pipeline of manufacturing,
| such as one that makes bicycles or refrigerators. New year,
| generate a new product ID, upgrade the CPU and RAM using the
| reference schematic provided by AMD/Intel, throw it in the ERP,
| make a BOM, and start rolling them off the assembly line.
|
| What we see is a deep disconnect between visionaries and the
| companies that operate these deep pipelines. Apple has tried to
| maintain a connection between design and manufacturing by having
| great designers at the top (and other companies poach them).
|
| A few daywalkers like Bunnie Huang walk both sides of the world.
| superdisk wrote:
| If he made this I would buy it in a second. Right now my non-work
| daily driver is a Thinkpad X1 Carbon because I fell for the
| Thinkpad meme, but it's honestly pretty terrible all things
| considered. Battery life sucks, touchpad sucks, the shell is
| plasticky and weird. Mac-tier hardware that runs Linux would be
| extremely welcome.
| barfoure wrote:
| > Wait wait wait OMEN MAX 16z-ak000 has a lot of capital letters,
| that one must be the best, right? But there's also an HP
| EliteBook, Elite sounds like the best, do I still want a ZBook?
|
| To be fair the names chosen are usually cringe and towards a
| specific market. To posit:
|
| "Pro", "Elite", etc: professional audience.
|
| "Epic", "Fury", etc: teen gamers.
|
| "Yoga", "Zen", etc: you can guess.
|
| You get the idea. The garbled names with an a, z or i suffix for
| slightly different SKUs is obnoxious and as hotz mentions
| confusing. But more to the point their marketing departments suck
| and lose to the Apple gorilla.
|
| Reminds me how Porsche sells one car in a hundred configurations
| and they all cost a lot and yet they all suck.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| In case anyone wants to _actually_ get into this, cyberdeck
| development communities are a good place to start.
|
| https://youtu.be/o00P7wHbd2c
|
| https://youtu.be/2VDRO9jjZzo
|
| Really fun stuff if you have the necessary electronics knowledge!
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