[HN Gopher] Leaving Intel
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Leaving Intel
        
       Author : speckx
       Score  : 326 points
       Date   : 2025-12-05 21:27 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.brendangregg.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.brendangregg.com)
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | Extra slash in the url
        
         | muragekibicho wrote:
         | You made me look 'blog//2025-12-05/leaving-intel.html'
        
       | brcmthrowaway wrote:
       | Terrible news from Intel, this guy seems like the best
       | performance engineer on the planet
        
         | nightshift1 wrote:
         | Where do you think he's going next? OpenAI? Google? Just saving
         | 1% on inference could probably justify his salary 100fold
        
           | cowsandmilk wrote:
           | Definitely feels like someplace with GPUs that will let him
           | work remotely.
        
           | anonymoushn wrote:
           | This is true economically but in reality if you have much
           | larger cost savings than that for sale then these companies
           | mostly say "we would be happy to buy that for $0 while we pay
           | you a million a year to move to the united states"
        
             | boguscoder wrote:
             | Not being sarcastic here, a million a year is not a target
             | compensation for engineer like him, 5-7 is probably where
             | it starts and goes to the stars
        
               | astrange wrote:
               | His bio says he was an Intel Fellow, which is like a VP-
               | level individual role, and yes that's what I expected
               | too... but apparently not? These are kinda low.
               | 
               | https://www.levels.fyi/companies/intel/salaries/software-
               | eng...
        
               | boguscoder wrote:
               | Id expect his comp even before Intel to be way above that
               | (he came from Netflix), perhaps levels info is not
               | entirely correct for Intel or doesn't apply to
               | exceptional hires, fellow level compensation at FAANG
               | seems to be more accurate there though
        
       | xer0x wrote:
       | Hats off to Brendan!
        
       | benwills wrote:
       | In the photo of him on his last day [0], there's a cassette deck
       | on his desk.
       | 
       | That could be something mundane, but I'd like to believe
       | something crazy happens if you yell at it [1]...
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://www.brendangregg.com/blog/images/2025/brendanoffice2...
       | 
       | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDacjrSCeq4
        
         | avtar wrote:
         | > cassette deck on his desk
         | 
         | Greybeard reporting for duty:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Datasette
        
           | bingo-bongo wrote:
           | Looks like the C64 is behind it (underneath a..?) and there's
           | a small corner of 5.25" diskette station further back.
           | 
           | Probably not his daily drivers.. :)
        
             | Keyframe wrote:
             | Yeah, behind datasette it looks like there's C64 C parked,
             | and above is a laser 300 (which makes sense if guy is
             | australian) and we can also see 1541-ii behind that, on the
             | top.
        
               | brendangregg wrote:
               | Right, laser 300 was called the VZ300 here. I'm out of
               | desk space so I had to put the VZ300 on a stand above my
               | C64C. Maybe AI can finally help me code some C64 and VZ
               | games. :-)
        
               | Keyframe wrote:
               | If only! It's kind of a blessing and a curse for us who
               | still code for c64 (demo scene). It looks like llm may
               | help you, but it's usually gibberish 6502 asm. I've seen
               | similar with z80 but on spectrum.
        
               | the_af wrote:
               | I think generating assembly with an LLM would be like
               | copying from a magazine back then: nothing learned.
               | 
               | But I wonder, do LLMs help _explain_ chunks of 6502
               | assembly code, in your experience? Say, if one was
               | learning.
        
               | Keyframe wrote:
               | yeah that certainly does happen. Especially if you give
               | it the context of the machine since 6502 itself and
               | opcodes do you no good unless you know the memory layout/
               | map which is in a sense what machine you're on. NES and
               | C64 are 6502, heck even SNES is but 6502 opcodes are
               | nothing since action is in memory you're interacting
               | with.
               | 
               | When you provide context and the memory map, it does help
               | explaining what algos you're looking at and what's going
               | on. I've had a bit more luck with gemini rather than
               | claude on this vs in general claude codes better. ChatGPT
               | is for the most part lost in hallucinations.
        
         | leetrout wrote:
         | A.B.K. Always Be Knolling.
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-CTkbHnpNQ
        
       | bfrog wrote:
       | Intel losing great people at high speed. Not the first, not the
       | last.
        
       | markus_zhang wrote:
       | Congratulations. A fulfilling life.
        
       | cebert wrote:
       | I'm wonder how much longer Intel will be around. It seems to be
       | dying a slow death like Kodak or IBM at this point.
        
         | ks2048 wrote:
         | "death" can be pretty slow - IBM has $60B in revenue and 270K
         | employees.
        
           | quotemstr wrote:
           | When Shakespeare wrote "cowards die many times before their
           | deaths", he had Intel in mind.
        
             | blinding-streak wrote:
             | Username checks out
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | And their financial/stock performance has been pretty good
           | the past couple of years.
        
           | seanmcdirmid wrote:
           | I really have no idea how IBM is still in business, or the
           | other big toxic techs like Oracle and Salesforce. Just goes
           | to show I don't know as much about the industry as I think.
        
             | seabrookmx wrote:
             | They bought Red Hat, which has OpenShift and all their
             | other "DIY Cloud" bits. This stuff is popular in government
             | or old businesses that may have been slow to (or unable to
             | for regulatory reasons) jump to AWS/GCP etc.
             | 
             | To say nothing of the banks and others still using the IBM
             | big iron.
        
               | i_am_a_peasant wrote:
               | they've been partnering with nvidia to build large ML
               | training clusters iirc last time i was in their building
               | at a meetup a few weeks ago
        
               | hbogert wrote:
               | The American hyper scalers are not necessarily the place
               | to be. Modern can mean Non-hyper scalar as well. Can this
               | sentiment just die please? Great that its working out for
               | you and you replaced good sysadmins with aws admins, but
               | it should not be the default strategy perse.
        
             | zipy124 wrote:
             | Oracle basically runs HR and finance services for like
             | every large company in Europe. They also run a scary amount
             | of healthcare stuff and other government tech type stuff.
             | 
             | It sucks but I see why they do it. If you don't have the
             | technical/managerial talent to handle procurement then it's
             | the safest bet.
        
             | toast0 wrote:
             | IBM still sells mainframes and similar. And has a giant
             | consulting and service business.
             | 
             | Their purchse of RedHat flows into consulting. Their
             | purchase of Softlayer (rebranded into IBM Cloud) is more
             | IBM owned, customer operated computing, a business IBM has
             | been in since forever.
        
         | chanux wrote:
         | Lindy[1] will make sure it stays around for a while.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
        
           | kqr wrote:
           | Although you're correct that it would be too soon to
           | prophesize their death, I want to clarify that Lindy ensures
           | correlation, not causation.
        
         | roboror wrote:
         | Intel still sells a ton of silicon.
        
         | hearsathought wrote:
         | > I'm wonder how much longer Intel will be around.
         | 
         | The government took an ownership stake in the company. Nvidia
         | invested a few billion in the company. It's not going anywhere.
        
           | voganmother42 wrote:
           | Intel is going nowhere.
           | 
           | They are a gov chosen winner, so it is a safe bet they will
           | exist for as long as they are a useful political puppet. Why
           | or how would they become more competitive?
        
       | seneca wrote:
       | I'm guessing he'll land at one of the big frontier model
       | companies. I'm surprised he stayed at Intel as long as he did,
       | they are dying fast.
        
         | bigiain wrote:
         | And it seems there's only one of them that's gonna have any new
         | hardware that needs GPU flamegraphs to optimise...
        
           | seanmcdirmid wrote:
           | AMD, Apple, or NVIDIA?
        
             | grosswait wrote:
             | Or Amazon, Google, Cerberus?
        
       | dramm wrote:
       | A periodic reminder Intel is still in business.
        
         | Aissen wrote:
         | You want something fun? Intel still has more than 50% market
         | share in all segments (data center, desktops, laptops).
        
       | fn-mote wrote:
       | A "goodbye" post after only 3.5 years. Hard to relate.
       | 
       | In my world it's hard to imagine an impact after that short of a
       | time. And in fact, reading the list of accomplishments
       | ("interviewed by the Wall Street Journal") makes it clear it's a
       | good PR piece.
       | 
       | I'm perfectly willing to believe he's fabulous, but this didn't
       | move the needle for me.
        
         | rossjudson wrote:
         | It didn't move the needle for you.
         | 
         | For other people, they're going to be thinking "some other
         | company is going to get one of the most effective and impactful
         | performance engineers on the planet".
        
           | stingraycharles wrote:
           | Yeah, I understand the responses, but this guy legit has a
           | great track record.
           | 
           | And if you read between the lines (especially the last few),
           | it seems like he had problems pushing certain initiatives of
           | his forward within Intel.
        
         | candeira wrote:
         | Dude shipped flamegraphs (which he also created in 2011) for
         | cloud GPU loads and persuaded internal stakeholders to release
         | the code as open source.
         | 
         | The "interviewed by the WSJ" line is for managers. Reading
         | between the lines, I'd say he did really well and, if he didn't
         | do better, it's because the organisation didn't let him.
        
           | smelendez wrote:
           | > The "interviewed by the WSJ" line is for managers.
           | 
           | It's a green flag for hiring managers for sure. Even a lot of
           | valued employees wouldn't be allowed to represent a big
           | company to the WSJ for various reasons, even with a PR person
           | sitting next to them.
        
           | bigiain wrote:
           | > if he didn't do better, it's because the organisation
           | didn't let him.
           | 
           | The last few sentences to me read like he knows for sure that
           | the organisation is actively working against what he sees as
           | his important goals. Carefully worded (and likely personal
           | lawyer approved) to avoid burning the bridges as he mic-drops
           | and deftly avoids having the door hit him in the arse as he
           | struts out.
        
             | seanmcdirmid wrote:
             | I felt like he avoided saying anything negative about Intel
             | just in case it would be taken that way. Intel doesn't have
             | the best reputation so we are all interpolating a much more
             | negative message than he actually said.
        
               | pm90 wrote:
               | Agreed. He also mentioned these years being "some of the
               | toughest at intel". To me it read as 1) Amazing that he
               | managed to get anything done at all with this kind of
               | turmoil and 2) A not so subtle hint that things aren't
               | all good at Intel.
        
           | seanmcdirmid wrote:
           | I can't tell if he is just good at self promotion or he is
           | just good. But that's always the case at bigcorp.
        
             | brailsafe wrote:
             | Good at self-promotion == just good in most cases for most
             | practical purposes whether it's factual or not, arguably.
             | His books seem substantial though, I don't know many people
             | who've read or written 800 pages on system performance
        
               | 59nadir wrote:
               | > Good at self-promotion == just good in most cases for
               | most practical purposes whether it's factual or not,
               | arguably.
               | 
               | This does not seem true to me. Most popular programming
               | YouTubers are demonstrably great at self-promotion but
               | tend to be mediocre or bad programmers who know very
               | little, even about the topics they talk about.
               | 
               | If anything we have plenty of examples of where being
               | good at self-promotion correlates inversely with actual
               | skill and knowledge.
               | 
               | With that said, I wouldn't classify Brendan Gregg as
               | being good at self-promotion.
        
               | brailsafe wrote:
               | In terms of their compensation though, it functionally
               | doesn't really matter, and that's somewhat true for being
               | a professional as well, it's usually only important how
               | many people think you're good _enough_. A job is often as
               | or more political as it is technical
        
           | menaerus wrote:
           | Flamegraph is literally just a perl script that visualizes
           | the stack traces collected by perf/dtrace (kernel). It's a
           | good tool though but it doesn't need to be oversold for its
           | capabilities, the hard work is done by the kernel. And
           | honestly, many times it is not that useful at all and can be
           | quite misleading, and not because of the bug in the tool but
           | because how CPUs are inherently designed to work.
        
             | tclancy wrote:
             | Everything is just a script with some visualization once
             | you come up with the concept.
        
         | bibimsz wrote:
         | ive been at my company 16 years and still haven't had an
         | impact, so... yeah.
        
           | ivanbalepin wrote:
           | that is some brutal self-honesty right there
        
             | tclancy wrote:
             | Especially since they mention being a surgeon in some other
             | comments.
        
               | bibimsz wrote:
               | um, no i didn't
        
           | stevenjgarner wrote:
           | If you've been there 16 years, I'm sure you employer feels
           | your impact has been worth the investment. Are you really
           | saying that you don't feel you have made the impact you would
           | have liked to make? Do you feel under-utilized?
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | You can work your entire career and have "no impact"
             | depending on how you define it.
             | 
             | A factory worker may be one of the best assembling doodads,
             | but have no real impact on the job over their career, for
             | example.
        
           | nrhrjrjrjtntbt wrote:
           | That is because these days what used to be high impact is now
           | table stakes.
        
             | 59nadir wrote:
             | That's interesting; I feel like like it's the opposite:
             | What used to be great work is basically unfathomable today
             | and what used to be regular productivity is seen as almost
             | superhuman. People get almost nothing done nowadays and
             | I've never felt like expectations were ever really at the
             | level they ought to be at, especially with how much money
             | people are getting.
        
               | newsclues wrote:
               | Some people are more productive. Others less so.
               | 
               | There is a tension between the two groups.
               | 
               | Some workers think meetings are great. Others hate them.
        
         | komali2 wrote:
         | Clicking through his links to various posts about e.g. stack
         | pointers or flame graphs, my takeaway is he's an outlier in
         | productivity, and got a lot done in 3.5 years at a monstrously
         | large organization.
         | 
         | I'm pretty envious of his capabilities, in 3.5 years I can ship
         | a couple webapps, I would never personally get JVM compilation
         | flags added.
        
           | stingraycharles wrote:
           | Brendan Gregg is somewhat of a systems engineering legend and
           | contributed more to the field than most people could dream
           | of.
           | 
           | Is his post self promotion? Yeah, probably.
           | 
           | Does it matter and do the top 3 comments on HN be salty about
           | that? Probably not that useful.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | Conversely, I made HotSpot commits as an intern, but I never
           | shipped a web app.
        
             | bjourne wrote:
             | If you're talking about the HotSpot VM then that is a work
             | of art. You learn a lot studying its codebase.
        
               | astrange wrote:
               | Yes, you can learn "they should have added value types to
               | this language".
        
         | hiddencost wrote:
         | He's arguably the most famous performance engineer. I've
         | followed his work for 15 years.
        
         | almosthere wrote:
         | People should try to remember that people post this on their
         | blogs, the way it gets in HN is not always their own doing.
        
       | gyomu wrote:
       | > "I also supported cloud computing, participating in 110
       | customer meetings, and created a company-wide strategy to win
       | back the cloud with 33 specific recommendations, in collaboration
       | with others across 6 organizations."
       | 
       | Man people keep count of this stuff?! Maybe I should too, it does
       | make flexing easier.
        
         | cowsandmilk wrote:
         | If you look at many of his recent blog entries, it is clear he
         | has felt the need to quantify his impact to prove he isn't less
         | effective as a remote employee in Australia working for a
         | company in the US.
        
           | fantod wrote:
           | I'm surprised someone with his reputation would need to do
           | this.
        
             | pas wrote:
             | Intel's management did not appreciate (as likely did not
             | understand) tech skills/talent lately, which likely
             | contributed to them squandering their lead.
        
         | chanux wrote:
         | "Count your meetings"
         | 
         | Wouldn't hurt to try!
        
         | nunez wrote:
         | Use gcalcli to search for meetings with customer invited.
         | That's it! Also, for an engineer that isn't in sales, 110
         | customer meetings is A LOT.
        
           | jcelerier wrote:
           | ... is it? I had 14 meetings with externals this week only
           | lol
        
         | gct wrote:
         | At big tech you have to quantify your value like this
         | regularly, so yeah everyone keeps track of the minutiae.
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | I guess they don't know how or don't bother to evaluate
           | people on what they actually contribute? Just number of
           | meetings attended, number of tickets closed?
        
             | brailsafe wrote:
             | Keeping track of actual value would require actually
             | rewarding people proportionally; all jobs ever only really
             | care about how often you're on time or your meeting
             | attendance record.
        
               | komali2 wrote:
               | Rewarding people proportionally is a macro-level unsolved
               | problem. Kropotkin wrote it about it and his solution was
               | to throw his hands in the air and say fuck it, labor
               | value is impossible to accurately evaluate, and thus he
               | invented anarchist communism.
               | 
               | Just look at all the weird quirks our world does to labor
               | value: the same exact job in two different locations for
               | a global employer (say, Google), selling to a global
               | market, pays differently depending on "local labor market
               | prices." In 2025 for engineering what on earth is a
               | "local labor market?" An optimization coming from an
               | engineer in Taiwan saves you the same money as if it
               | comes from an engineer in SF but the SF engineer gets 8x
               | the reward for doing the work. Luxury goods and
               | electronics cost the same in both places. Buying property
               | is only slightly cheaper in Taipei vs sf (yes really),
               | vehicles cost more in Taiwan. Food and healthcare is
               | cheaper in Taiwan, and that alone I guess means the
               | Taiwanese engineer is worth 1/8th the SF engineer, to
               | make sure the sf engineer can afford 16$ burritos?
               | 
               | Many other quirks. You point out another one: labor often
               | isn't rewarded based on real value to a company, for many
               | reasons but one of which is that managers often don't
               | understand the job of the people they're managing and so
               | apply management relevant KPIs to disciplines where those
               | KPIs don't make any sense. Engineering, for example,
               | doesn't correlate actual value add to the company via
               | meetings attended or customers met, but that won't stop
               | management from applying those KPIs and thinking it does!
               | 
               | I'm torn between thinking we keep things this way out of
               | ignorance vs we keep it this way maliciously so the
               | management class (which sets the rates) doesn't get
               | written out of labor agreements altogether because
               | they're often useless vs if we didn't keep up this
               | charade, capitalism would just collapse entirely.
        
               | brailsafe wrote:
               | Agreed. There's the additional point that I think many
               | people don't appreciate, which is that those managers and
               | many people lower down in the org chart merely exist
               | because somebody else needs to be responsible for a
               | system or a liability regardless of whether they do
               | anything measurably profitable, and aren't necessarily
               | incentivized to do anything more productively; they're
               | just there to take care of it or be blamed if it's not,
               | and have a low ceiling for what that job can possibly be
               | worth with no measurable way to argue for more, and so in
               | the case of managers, try to invent clout-generators at
               | any cost and with no connection to how the assignees
               | might accomplish it.
        
               | astrange wrote:
               | > An optimization coming from an engineer in Taiwan saves
               | you the same money as if it comes from an engineer in SF
               | but the SF engineer gets 8x the reward for doing the
               | work.
               | 
               | An underappreciated difference is that it's hard to
               | schedule meetings between people in SF and Taiwan,
               | because of time zones.
        
               | rwmj wrote:
               | How much you are paid is based on your power over the
               | organization, which is why useless senior executives are
               | paid far more than everyone else.
        
               | davnn wrote:
               | Why would you say useless? They hopefully make a couple
               | of good decisions. Three good decisions a day [1], maybe?
               | 
               | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfY3uRCvEMo
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | > An optimization coming from an engineer in Taiwan saves
               | you the same money as if it comes from an engineer in SF
               | but the SF engineer gets 8x the reward for doing the
               | work.
               | 
               | Suppose you have a thousand engineers and those thousand
               | engineers generate ten billion dollars in annual profit.
               | How much do they each get paid? They amount they're
               | worth? Nope, the amount they'll _accept_.
               | 
               | If you live in the US and you have the wherewithal to be
               | an engineer then you could also have been a doctor or a
               | lawyer or some other high paying occupation. And many of
               | those can't be fully remote because they have to see
               | domestic patients or interact in person with local courts
               | or clients. Which means that if you want someone in the
               | US to be your engineer, you need to pay them an amount
               | that makes them want to do that instead of choosing one
               | of those other occupations. Whereas the one in Taiwan
               | doesn't have the option to become a doctor in San
               | Francisco and is therefore willing to accept less money.
               | 
               | So why don't companies just hire exclusively the people
               | in Taiwan? There are all the usual reasons (time zones,
               | language barriers, etc.), but a big one is that they need
               | a thousand engineers. So they and their competitors hire
               | every qualified engineer in Taiwan until Taiwanese
               | engineers reach full employment, at which point the
               | companies still don't have all the engineers they want.
               | And when the average engineer is making the company ten
               | million dollars, paying San Francisco salaries is better
               | than not having enough talent.
               | 
               | So then why doesn't every smart person in Taiwan become
               | an engineer? Because the companies hiring engineers there
               | are only paying Taiwanese wages, and then they're not any
               | better off to do that than to become a doctor or a lawyer
               | in Taiwan. And if they would pay higher wages there, the
               | local economy would have to start paying local doctors
               | and engineers more to keep them all from becoming
               | engineers, and then you would only get a modest increase
               | in the number of engineers for a significant increase in
               | compensation. Which is still what happens, but only
               | slowly over time, until the wages in Taiwan ultimately
               | increase enough to no longer be a competitive advantage.
               | And companies don't _want_ to make that happen faster
               | because then they 'd have to pay higher salaries in
               | Taiwan.
        
               | jack_tripper wrote:
               | Not everyone who can be an engineer can also become a
               | doctor or a lawyer. Different requirements and tolls on
               | your mind and work style that aren't interchangeable for
               | everyone.
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | There are two reasons that doesn't matter. The first is
               | that it's untrue more often than not; plenty of people
               | could do both. And the second is that "doctors and
               | lawyers" are just arbitrary stand ins for high paying
               | domestic jobs. They could also become physicists,
               | commercial airline pilots, Wall St. quants, actuaries,
               | etc.
        
               | jack_tripper wrote:
               | _> plenty of people could do both_
               | 
               | Citation heavily needed.
               | 
               | Because here in the real world the barrier to entry in SW
               | engineering jobs is significantly lower than the law bar
               | or med school. Not to mention cheaper.
               | 
               | And yes of course, Americans have the highest salaries in
               | the world for white collar professions, what other new
               | information do you have that we don't already know?
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | > Citation heavily needed.
               | 
               | Have a look at the scatter plot for math and verbal SAT
               | scores:
               | 
               | https://www.statcrunch.com/reports/view?reportid=21828&ta
               | b=p...
               | 
               | There is a significant correlation between higher scores
               | on one and higher scores on the other.
               | 
               | > Because here in the real world the barrier to entry in
               | SW engineering jobs is significantly lower than the law
               | bar or med school. Not to mention cheaper.
               | 
               | The barrier to either of those professions is getting
               | good grades and then scoring well enough on a
               | standardized test, and the entire premise is that the
               | professions pay well which is how people pay back the
               | loans.
        
               | jack_tripper wrote:
               | _> There is a significant correlation between higher
               | scores on one and higher scores on the other._
               | 
               | That really doesn't mean SW engineers could be good
               | lawyers or doctors. It's a very superficial evidence.
               | 
               | Your high sat scores won't prevent you from puking at the
               | sight of corpses or diseases.
               | 
               | There's way more to performing in medicine that sat
               | scores.
        
               | brailsafe wrote:
               | I can become a SW engineer without a degree of any kind,
               | it's only helpful, but becoming a doctor _requires_
               | everything you mentioned
        
               | iberator wrote:
               | You are wrong. The price of luxuries and everything is
               | different around the world. Plus purchase power diffrnce
        
             | gct wrote:
             | Managers can be lazy just like anyone.
        
             | Arainach wrote:
             | What does "actually contributed" mean?
             | 
             | Joe implemented feature A. Sandra implemented feature B.
             | Raj implemented C. All launched in July. Since then metric
             | X is up 20%. Who gets credit, and what does that credit
             | really mean?
             | 
             | Now say all 3 did that in 3 different products. One
             | produced a 200% improvement in an internal product, one a
             | 40% improvement in a product with thousands of users, one a
             | 1% improvement in a product with a billion users? Compare
             | *that*.
        
               | devsda wrote:
               | Still it is a faulty metric.
               | 
               | 200% improvement may just be the result of feature A and
               | 40% may just be the max performance gain from feature B.
               | Comparing developers over the effectiveness of features
               | they implement is mostly rating the PMs or the leadership
               | they work with. Its a dice roll and its a measure of
               | one's luck to be at the right place & right time to work
               | on the right task.
        
               | Arainach wrote:
               | Then what's your proposal?
               | 
               | People complain about using metrics. People complain
               | about rating performance based on what your manager or
               | coworkers say about you. Performance reviews are an
               | unsolved hard problem.
        
               | palata wrote:
               | > Then what's your proposal?
               | 
               | Not the OP, but my proposal is to acknowledge that
               | unsolved hard problems are... unsolved. Instead of
               | inventing bullshit and pretending it's constructive. Some
               | people make a career out of that bullshitting, others
               | complain about it because it actually has a negative
               | impact on them.
               | 
               | "What's your proposal", in my experience, is often used
               | as a defense against someone calling bullshit. My
               | proposal when I'm calling bullshit is that the
               | bullshitter start being professional, but it's not
               | exactly something I can say.
        
               | Arainach wrote:
               | "What's your proposal" is a response to unhelpful
               | griping.
               | 
               | Performance management does have to happen. If you aren't
               | rewarding good performers with money and growth most of
               | them will leave. Losing them is expensive. Hiring is
               | expensive. To reward your high performers you need to be
               | able to identify them.
               | 
               | "All of these options are bad" isn't useful if you don't
               | have a better option.
        
               | ipdashc wrote:
               | > People complain about rating performance based on what
               | your manager or coworkers say about you.
               | 
               | Do they? This definitely seems better to me, and I don't
               | think I've really heard complaints about it. Not without
               | flaws, of course, but preferable to chasing a made-up
               | metric. It's arguably the entire point of a manager, to
               | know what their employees are doing at a high level. We
               | managed to do this for hundreds of years without needing
               | shiny dashboards and counting every meeting attended.
               | 
               | Metrics have their place as well, of course, but they
               | should be one data point, and should not be chased after
               | so religiously that recording the metrics becomes
               | significant work on its own.
        
               | Arainach wrote:
               | >Do they? This definitely seems better to me, and I don't
               | think I've really heard complaints about it
               | 
               | "My manager hates me, how do I get promoted?"
               | 
               | "My manager looks down on me because I'm a member of a
               | different caste, what do I do?"
               | 
               | "My manager keeps hiring only people of their race and
               | playing favorites with them, what do I do?"
               | 
               | "Coworker X gave me a bad review because I wouldn't go on
               | a date with them"
               | 
               | Even in the best case it biases heavily towards the
               | people most enthusiastic about selling an image of
               | themselves rather than those who are necessarily
               | contributing.
               | 
               | Relying on someone's perception/vouching for you rather
               | than performance metrics can be an absolute disaster -
               | for the people involved and for the company if it turns
               | into a lawsuit.
        
               | devsda wrote:
               | > My manager hates me, how do I get promoted?
               | 
               | > My manager looks down on me because I'm a member of a
               | different caste, what do I do?"
               | 
               | There may be legitimate cases but if someone runs into
               | these issues often, may be its just excuses for bad
               | performance. If the issue is genuine, find out what your
               | specific organization can do about the situation and
               | resolve it within that framework or find a better
               | manager.
               | 
               | No amount of metrics are gonna help if you are going
               | against a hostile manager, team or leadership.
        
               | tester756 wrote:
               | >Its a dice roll and its a measure of one's luck to be at
               | the right place & right time to work on the right task.
               | 
               | In general you pick companies, products, teams,
               | initiatives, tasks that you're interested about, so it's
               | not like it is purely dependent on luck
               | 
               | If you have skills and see opportunity then going for
               | that may result in nice outcomes :)
        
               | tester756 wrote:
               | > One produced a 200% improvement in an internal product,
               | one a 40% improvement in a product with thousands of
               | users, one a 1% improvement in a product with a billion
               | users? Compare _that_.
               | 
               | Try to assign money/revenue/PR to that and you'll have
               | decent proxy for impact.
        
               | Arainach wrote:
               | Again: what money is attributable to each feature? Are
               | subscriptions up 2% because of the new payment flow or
               | because it's tax refund season? Are they down because of
               | the new UI or because of tariffs? It's not realistic to
               | tell them apart most of the time.
        
             | izacus wrote:
             | Those meetings were the authors actual contributions. Any
             | really senior person isn't going to be coding.
        
               | jackling wrote:
               | Meetings by themselves are worthless. Similar to how
               | having an idea for something isn't intrinsically
               | valuable. I argue, meetings can't be actual contributions
               | because the real state, the code/hardware/etc, of your
               | project hasn't change. The result of the meeting, what
               | people actually do afterwards due to what was discussed,
               | is all that matters. In which case, it isn't the meeting
               | that was the contribution, it was the artifacts that were
               | created afterwards (documents, jira project tasks, code,
               | etc) that are the contribution.
               | 
               | When we view meetings as actual contribution, we're
               | really just valuing people doing effectively nothing. For
               | example, anyone who's job is just to take meetings, and
               | nothing else, is worthless IMO. You need to tangibly
               | create something afterwards. This is a problem with big
               | tech (which the company I work for is one of), it rewards
               | people shuffling papers around, especially senior+
               | engineers, instead of valuing real work they should be
               | doing.
               | 
               | Senior+ engineers have also deluded themselves into
               | thinking that they shouldn't be coding, and rather their
               | real work is creating endless amount of superfluous
               | documents and creating as many cross team meetings as
               | possible, rather than doing the hard work of creating an
               | actual product.
        
           | auggierose wrote:
           | Hehe, no wonder big tech doesn't get anything done.
        
             | taurath wrote:
             | It's more that it takes so long to get anything done, the
             | effort and results need to be recorded because it most
             | often won't be obvious from the impact. It's hard to make a
             | splash on a production system maintained by 30 other
             | people, but you can usually make things better, but it
             | won't always be obvious.
        
             | yvdriess wrote:
             | It's the overhead cost caused by trust breakdown. (tbf
             | sometimes the timesheets are there for legal/tax reasons)
        
             | tester756 wrote:
             | whats ur point, there's countless of examples to counter
             | your statement
             | 
             | from Windows, Linux, Chromium, VS Code, programming
             | langugages, tools like k8s, AI to revenue! :D
        
           | Insanity wrote:
           | I've been working in FAANG for some years in a senior
           | position. Never had to track or speak to things like this
           | lol.
        
             | astrange wrote:
             | I know some of them do this, but ours doesn't. There is a
             | once yearly self-review, and as far as I can tell it has
             | literally no impact on your actual performance review and
             | compensation, which are basically entirely up to your
             | manager's observations of you.
             | 
             | So it is important to keep your manager informally up to
             | date on what you're doing, at least during the weeks
             | they're thinking about performance.
        
           | lrem wrote:
           | No I don't.
        
         | jsight wrote:
         | A lot of people consider score keeping like this to be more
         | important than the job itself.
         | 
         | I can't even say that they are wrong.
        
         | Neywiny wrote:
         | I mean maybe. We often have weekly customer meetings. One of my
         | programs has 2 customers, we meet with both weekly. So do I put
         | idk 200+ customer meetings? That seems like a weird metric
         | because it's like "compiled code 400 times." I've seen resumes
         | that have the same vibe. We did not hire them. Sometimes it's
         | very telling what people think are accomplishments.
        
         | SanjayMehta wrote:
         | All startups in due course turn into Byzantine labyrinths of
         | bureaucracy. Only the record keepers survive.
        
         | methuselah_in wrote:
         | Isn't that show-off? I mean you have achieved is good but feels
         | like bragging about it ! Just a thought
        
         | brendangregg wrote:
         | I like to measure things. In real life and on computers. But I
         | also have a couple of work reasons for it:
         | 
         | As a remote worker, I'm under extra pressure to prove that
         | remoteness works.
         | 
         | As a senior employee, I'm also under pressure to regularly
         | report where my time is spent.
        
           | mi_lk wrote:
           | It's your personal blog though. But again nothing wrong with
           | turning that into a form of LinkedIn post
        
           | lopmkoihl wrote:
           | > I'm under extra pressure to prove that remoteness works.
           | 
           | Did keeping track and reporting that number help prove this?
        
             | yvdriess wrote:
             | It doesn't need to prove that. It needs to produce
             | plausible data that appeases either your direct or +1
             | manager.
        
           | zx8080 wrote:
           | Yeah, it's how everywhere is measured. But I like to remember
           | Joel Spolsky's takes on measuring everything, including his
           | famous book and blog:
           | 
           | https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/09/the-
           | econ-101-manag...
        
             | graemep wrote:
             | Contrary to the usual opinion on HN, this provides a good
             | reason to do an MBA!
             | 
             | You should learn enough economics that if you are even a
             | bit insightful you will avoid Econ 101 thinking, you will
             | learn about things like intrinsic and extrinsic motivation,
             | and a lot of other things relevant to management.
        
             | jama211 wrote:
             | This is great, thank you for sharing
        
           | GoblinSlayer wrote:
           | >As a remote worker, I'm under extra pressure to prove that
           | remoteness works.
           | 
           | You were delegated a manager's job?
           | 
           | >As a senior employee, I'm also under pressure to regularly
           | report where my time is spent.
           | 
           | Normally, this is stored in the time tracker, not in your
           | memory.
        
             | BoredPositron wrote:
             | In corps tracking hours is only for the grunts...
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | Exactly, I can't imagine that a "senior" developer needs
               | to track everything that carefully. Hell I work at a
               | consulting company full time as a staff consultant where
               | we do have to record hours and I don't go into any detail
               | whether I'm on or off a project.
        
           | hodgesrm wrote:
           | We like that you like to measure things. That's why I bought
           | your book.
        
           | rjzzleep wrote:
           | If only I had known that in the past, I even once received
           | the completely wrong advice to "not stand out, since your
           | work will speak for itself and you will get recognition".
        
             | pas wrote:
             | It depends on the company culture.
             | 
             | (Fancy US tech companies like to be very selective, have a
             | competitive mindset, hire "the best" according to their
             | filters, and then want people to show how amazing they are,
             | uu, so much impact, woah... and in effect people need to
             | constantly manage upwards.
             | 
             | While in many other companies, or "orgs", having a good
             | team cohesion is more important. To blend in a bit, get
             | accepted even if it means foregoing some ambition.)
             | 
             | That said it's always good to have receipts.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | Having good team cohesion is all well and good. But when
               | it's time to get promoted, what are you going to say "I
               | pulled well defined Jira tickets off the board"?
               | 
               | When you get ready to interview for your n+1 job, and you
               | spent months grinding leetCode and practicing reversing a
               | btree on the white board, get to the behavioral interview
               | and I ask "what accomplishment are you most proud of?",
               | what are you going to say "I worked with my team and we
               | together closed 20 story points a week"?
               | 
               | I have given the thumbs down to a lot of candidates this
               | year alone who couldn't discuss something that they took
               | ownership of or where they stood out.
        
           | kmarc wrote:
           | Damned is this industry, when even _you_ say you have to show
           | that "remoteness works".
           | 
           | I also measure meetings (counts, lengths, and mostly meeting
           | minutes/outine jotted down by myself) and keep track of other
           | metrics, exactly for this reason. However, I also don't
           | happen to have written best selling books and stuff, so I
           | really must do this, and you really shouldn't have to :-)
        
             | pm90 wrote:
             | I have more respect for him because he chose to do this.
             | It's probably clear that he doesn't have to, at all. But
             | he's choosing not to rely on his (somewhat) tech celebrity
             | status and deliver on measurable outcomes.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | Not that I've ever been especially religious about it but
               | it's probably a good thing to keep track of activities,
               | especially those that directly affect customers. It's
               | pretty easy/low-effort and is useful to be able to pull
               | out.
        
           | boringg wrote:
           | Do you have a particularly easy way to track or are you kind
           | of doing the same thing as consultant and logging your
           | dailies? Always drove me a bit crazy having to do that admin
           | piece every day.
        
           | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
           | As a senior employee. This is just the opposite of what I
           | would expect.
           | 
           | (I'm not the author of this)
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46146451
           | 
           | As a senior employee first at a startup from 2018-2020 and
           | then as a staff engineer at a consulting company for the last
           | year (with a 4 year at BigTech detour between), no one really
           | micromanages me.
           | 
           | Even at the consulting company, when I am on a project, I
           | just put 40 hours in Salesforce with the project I'm assigned
           | to - with no details - or put "bench" - again with no
           | details.
           | 
           | Why would my company care? The customer is happy, the project
           | is managed through Jira (where I as the lead create the
           | tasks) and my company gets paid when the project is done.
           | 
           | I am sure I ask for feedback after every project in our peer
           | review system.
        
             | izacus wrote:
             | Note how the author doesn't work for tiny little companies
             | like you.
        
               | lokar wrote:
               | As a principal at big tech I has essentially full
               | autonomy to do what I thought was highest value with very
               | little need to report anything.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | Exactly this. I'm still friends with my former manager at
               | AWS who is now an L7 "very important person" over a
               | service there and another former coworker who is a tech
               | lead over another service. He's an L6. I can guarantee
               | you neither of them are being micromanaged and have
               | mostly autonomy. I'm sure they have to deal with OP1
               | goals (? It's been awhile I think that's the term).
               | 
               | Hell I was a lowly L5 consultant who they only entrusted
               | to small projects and slices over larger projects (fair I
               | only had 2 years of AWS experience at the time) and no
               | one micromanaged me as long as I was doing my job. I flew
               | out to customers sites by myself to lead work and my
               | manager rarely knew what I was doing. I would go weeks
               | without talking to him.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | You did see the part about the four year stint at BigTech
               | in between? Unless you think the second largest employee
               | in the US is a "small little company".
               | 
               | I also added an HN submission that made the front page a
               | couple of days ago by a staff engineer at Google, did you
               | notice the difference between how he didn't really seem
               | to need to prove his "impact"?
               | 
               | Finally, this isn't r/cscareerquestions where you have a
               | bunch of 22 year olds needing to prove themselves by
               | mentioning "they work for a FAANG" (been there done that.
               | Got the t-shirt. Didn't like it)
        
               | hyperpape wrote:
               | I think you're misreading that article.
               | 
               | > In an infrastructure organization, you need to impress
               | your customers' managers.
               | 
               | > I call this the Shadow Hierarchy. You don't need your
               | VP to understand the intricacies of your code. You need
               | the Staff+ Engineers in other critical organizations to
               | need your tools.
               | 
               | > When a Senior Staff Engineer in Pixel tells their VP,
               | "We literally cannot debug the next Pixel phone without
               | Perfetto", that statement carries immense weight. It
               | travels up their reporting chain, crosses over at the
               | Director/VP level, and comes back down to your manager.
               | 
               | Visibility is important, it's just not the same kind of
               | visibility.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | The question I'm trying to answer is why are keeping
               | metrics important at all?
               | 
               | From my experience working on and being the third highest
               | contributor to what was a very popular open source "AWS
               | Solution" in its niche, we kept metrics because we had to
               | justify why it should it exist and why should we keep
               | getting resources for it. This is the same reason that
               | the Google Staff engineer that was in the linked article
               | did it for his project.
               | 
               | The next reason is that to get promoted and to have
               | something to put on your promo doc, you need to show
               | "impact".
               | 
               | But when you are at a staff level and no longer chasing
               | promotions, it becomes perfunctory. You do it just
               | because you are suppose to and do the bare minimum to
               | check it off the list and stay in compliance. But
               | everyone if any importance knows you.
               | 
               | That's true at BigTech to my 1000+ company. No one from
               | the C suite is wondering who employees #13545 is or what
               | I have accomplished whether or not I go into details.
               | 
               | However I do make sure I get peer feedback from everyone
               | that I work with officially or if I go the extra mile for
               | them. I asked my manager do I need to record my goals for
               | the year. He kind of shrugged and asked me was I trying
               | to get promoted to a director or something (a manager
               | role would be a horizontal move). I said "no". he said
               | not really.
               | 
               | I keep a personal career document just in case I need to
               | prepare to interview because I stay ready to interview -
               | I have for almost 20 years. I have been working for 30.
               | 
               | Then back to my minor criticism. It's not like at a staff
               | level once you have accomplished a lot and built up a
               | network, you are going to be blindly submitting your
               | resume to a job you found on Indeed. At that point your
               | resume is just something to put in the ATS as part of the
               | hiring process. But no one in the hiring prices is going
               | to look at it. They are already targeting you to work
               | there.
               | 
               | I had a director who was a former coworker at a well
               | known non tech company basically offer to create a job
               | just for me because he needed someone who he could trust.
               | I'm not special, I just have a decent network and made a
               | positive impression on a few people
        
             | djoldman wrote:
             | In my experience "just put 40 hours in Salesforce with the
             | project I'm assigned to" matches folks expectations.
             | 
             | However.
             | 
             | If you're ever on a project that doesn't turn out so well,
             | it may suddenly become critical to account for all work
             | done during every billed hour in detail.
             | 
             | I would advise all consultants to track their time
             | diligently and completely.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | That's part of the project management tracking but that's
               | not strictly hours.
               | 
               | Those traceability artifacts are in order
               | 
               | 1. the signed statement of work - this is the contract
               | that is legally binding.
               | 
               | 2. The project kick off meeting where we agree on the
               | mechanics of the project and a high level understanding
               | of the expectations
               | 
               | 3. Recorded, transcribed and these days using Gong to
               | summarize the meetings, deep dive discovery sessions.
               | 
               | 4. A video recorded approvals of the design proposals as
               | I am walking through it.
               | 
               | 5. A shared Jira backlog that I create and walk through
               | them with it throughout the project
               | 
               | 6. A shared decision log recording what decisions were
               | made and who on the client side made them.
               | 
               | 7. A handoff - also video recorded where the client says
               | they are good going forward.
               | 
               | I lead 2-7 or do it all myself depending on the size of
               | the project.
               | 
               | At no point am I going to say or expect anyone on my
               | project to say they spent 4 hours on Tuesday writing
               | Terraform.
               | 
               | But then again, my number one rule about consulting that
               | I refuse to break is that I don't do staff augmentation.
               | I want to work on a contract with requirements and a
               | "definition of done". I control the execution of the
               | project and the "how" within limits.
               | 
               | I want to be judged on outcomes not how many jira tickets
               | I closed.
               | 
               | When I was at AWS I worked with a client that directly
               | hired a former laid off ProServe L6 consultant. He was
               | very much forced into staff augmentation where he did
               | have to track everything he did by the hour.
               | 
               | You could tell he thought that was the fifth level of
               | hell going from strategy consulting to staff
               | augmentation. It paid decently. But he was definitely
               | looking and I recommended him as a staff consultant at my
               | current company (full time direct hire)
               | 
               | FWIW: I specialize in cloud + app dev - "application
               | modernization"
        
             | spjt wrote:
             | In my experience, having to track my hours absolutely
             | destroys my performance. Thinking about how I need to pay
             | attention to how long I spend on everything is a constant
             | distraction in the back of my head while I try to do
             | anything useful, and then I spend the rest of the day
             | procrastinating having to fill out the paperwork. I know
             | I'm not the only one because the entire dev staff was ready
             | to mutiny the last time I was at a company that tried to
             | get devs to start tracking their hours.
        
               | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
               | Exactly. For consulting company, you have to track how
               | much time you spent on a project. I am allocated for a
               | project for 100% for a week, sure we are going to bill
               | for that week. But we don't get paid until the project
               | requirements are met. The client isn't going to audit
               | every hour. They are going to sign off based on results.
               | 
               | I'll keep Jira updated at the end of the day because the
               | PMO organization needs that for tracking and even we need
               | that for coordination. But I am going to put in 40 hours
               | at the end of the week.
               | 
               | No I'm not going to track hours I spent on internal
               | meetings, conducting interviews and the other internal
               | minutiae that takes up my day.
               | 
               | The company only makes money when I'm billing a client -
               | that's what I'm tracking - my results. Is the company
               | making money on me and am I getting positive feedback
               | from sales, my teammates and the customer.
        
           | kappi wrote:
           | measuring number of meetings seems deflection of actual
           | output!
        
         | lopmkoihl wrote:
         | The fact that they were busy keeping count during those 110
         | occasions and for every other activity clearly tells that they
         | nothing better to do. You have to be loud about such numbers
         | when you have very little meaningful work to show for.
        
         | utopiah wrote:
         | Parse your calendar export (.ics) file and count events of a
         | certain name and voila?
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Of course, always take notes, they will help when doing
         | escalations, or justify oneself in review meetings.
        
         | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
         | While I have a personal career document and have had one for
         | years where I have all of my major accomplishments in STAR
         | format. This seems a bit much.
         | 
         | When I was at BigTech, there was an internal system where you
         | recorded your major accomplishments and the impact they had.
         | 
         | But I would _never_ write it up on a public blog post like
         | this. I am assuming the author of the post must be someone well
         | known in the industry for it to make it to the front page of
         | Hacker News. If his intent was to promote himself so he could
         | get another job, I'm sure that he has a network where a few
         | messages would lead him to one.
         | 
         | Even in my little niche of the world where in the grand scheme
         | of things I'm a nobody, I was able to lean on my network at 50
         | after being Amazoned in 2023 and have three offers that were at
         | least a lateral move within two weeks.
         | 
         | I had one fall into my lap last year too that I accepted based
         | on my network.
        
       | wferrell wrote:
       | So...oai or google?
        
         | johncolanduoni wrote:
         | Yahoo. They're due for a comeback
        
         | acheron wrote:
         | Hey, maybe he has morals.
        
       | al_be_back wrote:
       | Leaving intel? That's one case where an employee won't get
       | chastised for
        
       | foobarian wrote:
       | Wow is it me or is the self promotion strong in this one.
        
         | boguscoder wrote:
         | Does he need it though? His name is literally a brand in many
         | tech circles and very good brand at that
        
           | forrestthewoods wrote:
           | Always valuable to announce your availability and celebrate
           | recent successes.
        
             | boguscoder wrote:
             | And how did I contradict that? My point was that he is not
             | looking for vanity
        
               | forrestthewoods wrote:
               | You: does he need it? He's famous!
               | 
               | Me: it's always valuable!
               | 
               | That's it.
        
       | maliker wrote:
       | Masterclass in turning a goodbye email into a hire me after my
       | next gig ends. I'm not being sarcastic, this is a great example
       | of highlighting the value they added.
        
       | senkora wrote:
       | He doesn't mention it in this post, but in another post he talked
       | about the toll of needing to frequently attend meetings in the
       | middle of the night in his time zone.
       | 
       | Whatever his reasons for leaving, I hope that he finds a better
       | balance in his new role.
        
         | solatic wrote:
         | This was the takeaway I had taking to a colleague about his
         | time at Intel - they're a genuinely global company with
         | engineering teams in practically all time zones who are still
         | expected to collaborate with each other. No matter what time of
         | day the meeting was scheduled for, it was the middle of the
         | night for _somebody_ , and no, just working on written docs
         | async for everything didn't cut it, and they couldn't just fly
         | people out all the time. So that's apparently just part of what
         | it means to take a job at Intel these days.
        
       | shrubble wrote:
       | If my back of the envelope math is right, in the last 6 months
       | he's been attending more meetings at possibly odd hours; he lives
       | in Australia and Intel is based in the USA.
       | 
       | See https://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2025-05-22/3-years-of-
       | extr...
       | 
       | 77 meetings then, but 110 meetings in his resignation blog
       | post...
        
         | 0x0000000 wrote:
         | Two different numbers, no? The resignation posts specifies 110
         | _customer_ meetings, the blog post you linked to about meetings
         | during odd hours does not.
        
           | brendangregg wrote:
           | Yeah, different numbers, 110 customer meetings, the other
           | post tracked 1-6am meetings. I'm glad I tracked 1-6am
           | meetings since I've shared that number when people think that
           | remote workers aren't making an effort.
        
             | fipar wrote:
             | Those 1-6am meetings are crazy. I've been fully remote for
             | over 16 years now and my only 1-6am meetings are incident
             | response, if I'm on call.
             | 
             | And I'm a nobody; that you have to do that makes it feel
             | even crazier to me.
             | 
             | I admit I was a bit more flexible with that in the past,
             | but once I had a heart attack at 40 it dawned on me any
             | company would just replace me and keep on going while my
             | family was going to have a much tougher time (and no help
             | from whatever company would be employing me at the time).
        
       | javaunsafe2019 wrote:
       | I mean I understand if someone like Keller writes such posts but
       | some dude claiming to have hosted conference events and some kind
       | of process flame graph which could have been done by anyone...
        
         | krior wrote:
         | > some dude
         | 
         | Maybe you should read something about him before you call him
         | that. I recommend the "Contributions"-section on his Wikipedia-
         | article. And if it is of any relevance to your work: his
         | "Systems Performance: Enterprise and the Cloud" is a
         | comprehensive and excellent guide.
        
       | motbus3 wrote:
       | I see some mean comments. I suppose maybe people doesn't know
       | Brendan Gregg's work, this guy reserve some respect.
        
         | elric wrote:
         | What's going on with these comments? So much ridiculous and
         | unwarranted bashing. Is someone feeding the trolls? Is 4chan
         | down? Yikes.
        
         | solatic wrote:
         | Brendan Gregg deserves respect. Intel? Their reputation had
         | been in the gutter for a few years now. The classic way to
         | offend a nerd is to have a leading market position, tons of
         | cash and resources, then _squander_ it on politics and
         | bullshit.
        
       | dotemacs wrote:
       | What's with the retro gear on the desk?
       | 
       | Do you use it much and what for?
       | 
       | In particular Commodore tape player.
        
       | mort96 wrote:
       | Leading the article with AI stuff is certainly a choice. If
       | that's what they've ben spending their time on lately, maybe this
       | is good for Intel.
        
         | aardvark179 wrote:
         | Calling them AI flamegraphs is really naming them after the
         | workload they are likely to be used on. If you want to make
         | workloads more efficient it's useful to know where they are
         | spending their time.
        
           | mort96 wrote:
           | Flamegraphs are great, GPU flamegraphs are an obvious good
           | idea. But his choice to work on "AI" instead of general GPU
           | compute, and advertise this "AI" work at the very top of the
           | list of things he's done of note, tells me what I need to
           | know.
        
       | torginus wrote:
       | I think this is a good opportunity to guerilla-ask a question
       | about cloud performance:
       | 
       | We've been running some compute heavy workloads on AWS, with some
       | running on metal instances, and some running on virtualized
       | instances of equal size.
       | 
       | Both were intel 192 core machines.
       | 
       | Virtualized instances tended to perform 20-25% worse in terms of
       | CPU throughput, which is quite significant, and more than I'd
       | have assumed.
       | 
       | Where does the performance go? Is this an AWS thing, does the
       | performance get lost in the software stack, or is it a CPU-level
       | issue?
       | 
       | I haven't tried with other vendors tbh, but would it be possible
       | to mitigate this by switching to another architecture/vendor like
       | AMD or Graviton?
        
         | arcanus wrote:
         | That's a surprisingly large overhead. I've not measured that
         | large an impact on AMD, particularly for compute heavy.
         | 
         | Did you profile at all? And have you observed if it's not
         | compute-bound? If it's memory or IO bound it can be due to
         | other virtualization overheads, such as memory encryption.
        
           | torginus wrote:
           | I will try to profile, but how do you suggest going about it,
           | what to measure? Maybe running some synthethics stressing CPU
           | or memory?
           | 
           | The workload is pure memory/CPU, with very little IO so it's
           | 100% compute bound, with much more emphasis on CPU.
        
             | kqr wrote:
             | There's a lot of I/O hidden in CPU-bound loads related to
             | fetching, prefetching, caching, etc.
        
             | tayo42 wrote:
             | The guys post were commenting on has alot of info on this
             | topic lol
        
         | everfrustrated wrote:
         | On modern AWS instance types so much is offloaded to dedicated
         | hardware that the only shared (noisy) components between VMs is
         | memory bandwidth and higher levels of CPU cache (and I think
         | graviton doesn't even share CPU cache now)
         | 
         | I would suspect your performance difference is mostly likely
         | showing that on metal you are sharing the same software wider
         | so not polluting caches as much as a vm neighbour running
         | unrelated software.
        
           | torginus wrote:
           | The virtual instance is the exact same size as the metal one,
           | which covers an entire physical machine - I guess this is
           | pure overhead rather than noisy neighbors.
        
         | dehrmann wrote:
         | Could you share parts of /proc/cupinfo?
        
         | benbenolson wrote:
         | Try the relatively new top-down microarchitectural analysis in
         | perf:
         | 
         | https://perfwiki.github.io/main/top-down-analysis/
        
       | mgrat wrote:
       | Glad this made HN. Just wanted to thank you for writing, and I've
       | ordered one of your books.
        
       | munchler wrote:
       | > My next few years at Intel would have focused on execution of
       | those 33 recommendations [for a "company-wide strategy to win
       | back the cloud"], which Intel can continue to do in my absence.
       | 
       | The idea that people are going to execute your arduous, detailed
       | plan for world domination while you're off doing something else
       | seems a bit... unrealistic, to say the least.
        
         | rbancroft wrote:
         | If it works, he gets credit. If it fails or never happens,
         | someone else gets the blame. pretty classic.
        
         | snapdeficit wrote:
         | You're dead on. This kind of knee-deep gluey "advice" is the
         | cult of personality that intel now thinks is effective
         | planning. The head's-down hard work of the 80's and 90's
         | vanished when the media turned Grove into a reluctant folk hero
         | and the bubble burst. I was there for 21 years, this guy is
         | symptom of a much larger problem that is self-sustaining. Too
         | many people trying to hide, do the bare minimum, and collect a
         | fat paycheck, while people like this wave around grand plans
         | that will never be touched. Yep I'm a cynic, two decades there
         | fried my compassion circuits.
        
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