[HN Gopher] After my dad died, we found the love letters
___________________________________________________________________
After my dad died, we found the love letters
Author : eatitraw
Score : 723 points
Date : 2025-11-23 08:40 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jenn.site)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jenn.site)
| haritha-j wrote:
| Thats so sad, and good reminder that we shouldn't force others
| onto lifestyles that we want.
| justinclift wrote:
| Yet ever increasing housing prices in the west force many into
| lifestyles they don't want. :(
| mac-attack wrote:
| A very adept writer.
| npinsker wrote:
| Yes, one of the best pieces I've ever read posted here.
| yzydserd wrote:
| Agreed. I just hope they repair their Shift keys soon.
| zdc1 wrote:
| I don't know the age of the author, but interestingly, Gen-Z
| doesn't seem to use that key
| nojs wrote:
| It's ironic because you have to go to additional effort to
| turn autocorrect off, which contradicts the "i dont even
| care" effect they're going for
| popularrecluse wrote:
| It's a lot less effort than changing every nth word
| because of an aggressive autocorrect.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Baby boomers have used up all the capital letters on Yelp
| reviews and Facebook rants, unfortunately, and have left
| none for future generations.
| esafak wrote:
| https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~beatrice/humor/clinton-
| deploys-v...
| impure-aqua wrote:
| This is not really anything new, back in AIM and SMS
| messaging days, people would type "wuu2" or "whats up" to a
| friend, but to express the same idea in an email, you would
| probably be sending some variant of "What are you up to?"
|
| There is massively different subtext between the two.
| Autocapitalization and autocorrect represents a limit on
| the subtextual bandwidth you can communicate along with a
| message. Restrictions on subtextual bandwith are not ideal
| when your generation relies on text-based communication for
| evermore intimate interactions - that "whats up" message
| might be the start of you asking someone out on a date, I
| don't want it formatted the same way as a message I would
| send my boss.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I've always wondered what the point of capital letters even
| is? It doesn't seem to add anything worthwhile to the
| language. You need to learn 26 extra shapes, and then some
| arbitrary rules for when to use the majuscule. But if you
| never heard of capital letters, nobody will be confused by
| what you wrote.
| nkrisc wrote:
| They make scanning and reading text easier since they
| make jumping to the end/start of sentences easier. When
| you read your eyes are constantly jumping ahead and even
| backwards. The capital letters help you land quickly back
| at significant positions in the text since they are
| associated with boundaries in logical clauses.
| lordnacho wrote:
| If that were the point, why does English capitalize
| proper nouns? That would seem to complicate finding the
| start of a sentence. Besides, you have periods,
| exclamation points, and question marks at the ends of
| sentences anyway.
|
| In German even ordinary nouns are capitalized, making it
| even less easy to find the capital at the start of a
| sentence.
| machomaster wrote:
| 1. Dots are tiny and are hard to see. A capital letter is
| a more visible indicator of the start of the sentence. 2.
| English barely uses any punctuation (vs. Russian)
| therefore making adherence to readability rules even more
| important. Paragraphs are also nicer to read vs. trying
| to read a wall of text.
| padolsey wrote:
| I think it's become a bit of a cliche/clique'y thing amongst
| a certain population. I don't know its origins (tumblr emo
| crowd??) but I first encountered it in Silicon Valley. The
| Collison brothers used to love doing it, as did Altman. I
| feel it projects a kind of stream-of-thought with an
| aloofness, like "i dont care enough for correct form.
| language bends to my unique thoughts. read this if you like,
| i dont care lol".
|
| All-lowercase comes accross as the text equivalent of a
| hoodie and jeans: comfortable, a bit defensive against being
| seen as trying too hard, and now so common it barely reads as
| rebellion.
| saaaaaam wrote:
| As I understand it the root was people using the iPhone
| with autocorrect turned off. That's how someone from the
| tumblr emo crowd (where it was definitely prevalent!)
| explained it to me, and the reason was because there was a
| lot of culture specific terminology used (including
| deliberate misspellings of words) that was difficult if
| autocorrect was switched on.
|
| By extension you can see how that could also apply to tech.
| 6581 wrote:
| > I don't know its origins (tumblr emo crowd??)
|
| You're almost a century off :) https://www.bauhaus-
| bookshelf.org/bauhaus_writing_in_small_l...
| pja wrote:
| > "He wasted his entire life, my mom said to me, the evening we
| found the love letters. His entire life, and mine as well."
|
| What a burden of expectations to lay on both yourself & your own
| family.
|
| I'm glad the author was able to put those aside & live her own
| life more authentically than her father did.
| arpinum wrote:
| The author may be unduly harsh on her father. He got to be
| publicly married and have a private gay life. He didn't have to
| live with his wife much. He liked the idea of having a
| daughter.
|
| Given the hand he was dealt it's a pretty good outcome for
| himself. Grossly selfish, but not a waste for himself.
| ivape wrote:
| Some don't fully understand that the universe does not owe
| you any camaraderie in your affairs. Not even a small mouse
| to talk to. Many live the same paths we live entirely alone.
| While life took from her a real romance, it did not take from
| her partnership. Friends along your travels is not
| guaranteed, neither are best friends, or the bestest of best
| friends. Make do, seriously.
| noduerme wrote:
| Who's to say the mother didn't have an affair or two along
| the way?
|
| People usually do know what they're marrying into.
| lazide wrote:
| Yup, though often will deny it if it comes out. The
| 'subconscious' part is not often fully unknown forever,
| even if it may be uncouth to acknowledge such awareness.
| prmoustache wrote:
| This, I do think parents have a right to secrecy. Kids don't
| have to know everything.
|
| Even the idea that our partners/spouses/SO should know
| everything about us is waaaay too extreme. I think that as
| long as we love and don't hurt each others and we respect the
| rules we set between each others it is ok to keep some things
| secrets.
|
| From what I understand from the author's post, the whole
| marriage was a big lie to begin with so it is not like
| authors parents really loved each others. While we can
| criticize his father for not accepting divorce and thus
| allowing his mother to rebuild a life, we can hardly call him
| cheating. And I don't think kids have a right to know
| everything. I know my parents have had at least one major
| crisis when I was a kid without knowing the specifics but I
| have no right nor need to know why. It was between them.
|
| A lot of couples only stay married because it is easier from
| an organisationnal, social and economic point of view than
| divorcing anyway.
| wiether wrote:
| Is the capitalization of the quote your own doing or was it
| displayed like it for you?
|
| There isn't a single uppercase letter when I open the article,
| it's impossible to me to read it because it feel like a single
| sentence and I can't breathe
| hexo wrote:
| to me it has much better readability
| noduerme wrote:
| The lower case "I" stands out very much in reading it as a
| self-annihilating affectation.
|
| However, the sentences are well formed. If you really want to
| lose your breath, try "The Autumn of the Patriarch" by
| Marquez. You really won't be able to put it down.
| jll29 wrote:
| Or Finnegan's Wake, for that matter.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| The author obviously has this as an acquired habit or
| affectation, possibly for stylistic reasons. It's interesting
| that some people can read this just as well as normal prose,
| but to others it feels as if someone is pouring sand all over
| their well-oiled gears. I gave up after a paragraph as well.
|
| I fully support people writing in whatever way pleases them,
| but for broadly accessible article length text capitalisation
| is a must in English. Not because it is 'correct', but
| because many readers rely on capitalisation.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Many readers rely on articles being written in a specific
| language, does that mean every writer is obligated to
| publish every piece in every language?
|
| Has it occurred to anyone who sees capitalization as a
| must-have for legibility, that an opportunity is being
| presented to train oneself to read text without traditional
| capitalization?
|
| Maybe it's because I studied poetry, or because I was a
| voracious reader of experimental writing when I was
| younger, but I've probably worked my way through thousands
| of pages of uncapitalized or unconventionally capitalized
| writing; I can empathize if it's more difficult for you to
| read (personally I would consider an absence of paragraph
| breaks a nearly-unforgivable travesty), and I wouldn't even
| deny you the opportunity to complain about it.
|
| But I think calling it "a must" for accessibility is
| perhaps overstating it a bit.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| There is no obligation at all (my comment did not include
| any _must_ beyond that being a requirement for broadly
| accessible text either). Merely the observation that if
| you want to write accessible text in any chosen language,
| following conventions means that you expand your reach.
|
| Experimental language has its place. I can quite enjoy
| that too depending on the context. But combining the wish
| to convey a story or message with avant-garde text layout
| turns it into something more akin to art. I'm not always
| in the mood for that, in part because it is more taxing
| to engage with. In this case I figure the goal of the
| author is for readers to hear their story, not grapple
| with their specific manner of self-expression. Of course
| if their life goal is to make lowercase text common and
| acceptable, then this may be completely on point. My
| point about the accessibility of the text still stands
| though.
|
| > Has it occurred to anyone who sees capitalization as a
| must-have for legibility, that an opportunity is being
| presented to train oneself to read text without
| traditional capitalization?
|
| I can train myself to read text upside-down as well, or
| in Klingon, or with no spaces at all. I have no wish to
| do so, since most authors seem to regard such text as
| unnecessarily harsh on their readers. Besides, being able
| to read well because you have a solid grasp on the
| conventions, lexicon, and idioms used is a net benefit to
| me. Our brains are pattern matching machines after all --
| pattern recognition is what we humans excel in. If have
| no desire to diminish that skill either.
| bonsai_spool wrote:
| > since most authors seem to regard such text as
| unnecessarily harsh on their readers.
|
| To push back on this, following convention is often the
| easy thing to do (so not something _regarded_ versus
| defaulted to).
|
| There's a literary history of form influencing story;
| there was even a story about a famous example of this on
| HN recently that discussed this year's Nobel laureate--
| who notably publishes long novels that play with
| punctuation conventions:
| https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/against-high-
| brodernism/
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| I find that people who make a point out of violating
| writing norms as part of their house style typically
| don't have thoughts worth communicating. Nothing is
| missed by not training myself instead of reading
| something that flows smoothly.
| spongebobstoes wrote:
| in my experience, it is not a useful heuristic
|
| a non native English writer may have a "house style" that
| you see as violating norms
|
| dismissing all those people removes a great diversity of
| thought and expression from your mind without due
| consideration
|
| better to engage with more ideas, even those in unusual
| packaging. learning to read it easily and without bias is
| two kinds of skill growth anyhow
| scydereal wrote:
| Generally agree with that, but in this particular case I
| don't think this text was designed to be broadly
| accessible, given the content and the platform (little
| indie website).
|
| Edit: checked out some of their other posts and they don't
| always use this style. Seems like a pretty deliberate
| choice here.
| gbin wrote:
| It doesn't improve readability for sure but for me it comes
| across way worse as "I don't have time for this, deal with
| it" because all of the people I know doing that are self-
| important executives.
|
| English is a second language for me and I feel really bad
| when I impose a grammar mistake or a badly put together
| sentence to my readers!
|
| So for me pushing that on purpose is borderline insulting to
| the reader ie. suffer so I don't have to press the shift key,
| this extra effort is below me.
| kergonath wrote:
| > for me it comes across way worse as "I don't have time
| for this, deal with it" because all of the people I know
| doing that are self-important executives.
|
| Same for me. See Sam Altman, for example.
|
| > suffer so I don't have to press the shift key, this extra
| effort is below me.
|
| These days you actually have to fight against spell
| checkers to avoid having capitals after a period.
| delecti wrote:
| It's interesting to me that you had such difficulty, and it
| makes me wonder how old you are. Growing up using instant
| messengers on the internet in the '90s and early '00s, it was
| normal to type without ever using capital letters, except for
| emphasis. The only thing that changes that style is when
| someone is typing on a phone that capitalizes for them
| (though one friend manually undoes those "corrections").
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I like the storytelling, but the sentences without caps are
| pretty hard for me to parse. The constant search for the
| beginning of the next sentence destroys the emotional experience
| for me; I just can't dive into the text and feel "submerged".
| rjdj377dhabsn wrote:
| Agreed. I normally find the complaints about formatting to be
| petty, but for a long form writing piece like this, all
| lowercase is just a bad choice with no discernable upside.
| mierz00 wrote:
| I've come to love this style of writing. While not quite the
| same, Tim Winton's Cloud Street felt similar.
|
| Just raw thoughts, no rules.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| They still respect writing rules, in fact - except for the
| capitalizations.
|
| If they wrote, say, phonetically instead, the text would
| become utterly unreadable, even though the raw thoughts in
| one's head aren't expressed in _written_ English.
| nkrisc wrote:
| Capitalization would not change the content at all, but
| would make it easier to read. People reading English have
| expectations are capitalization. Breaking those
| expectations makes the text more difficult to read and feel
| less effortless.
| xandrius wrote:
| Yep, I find that stylistic writing choice to be rather selfish.
| It might be because I'm a gamedev at heart but a huge part of
| writing is UX: sure you have something to say but the way you
| say it for the reader to actually go through all of it is
| almost as important.
|
| That's why I think shortish chapters are good UX, instead of a
| single unbroken one. Using a good font, making use of
| paragraphs to divide sections and using caps whenever required.
|
| I personally think if a writer doesn't care to even add a bunch
| capitalisation to make my life easier then I assume that piece
| of writing is mainly for themselves and I immediately stop
| reading, since it's not meant for me but for them.
| skylurk wrote:
| Here's another piece of writing, from a very different author,
| with lots of capitals. Maybe you like it more?
|
| https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42889/hope-is-the-thi...
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I like Emily Dickinson, actually.
|
| Poetry works in a different way, though. The lines are short
| and your eyes won't struggle much with continuity.
| e.e.cummings eschewed capitalizations as well and his poetry
| is still easily readable (to me at least).
|
| A larger block of text is harder to parse without
| capitalizations. This is actually why they developed in the
| first place. Original Roman writing was very "blocky" and
| thus much harder to read, see for example this:
|
| https://share.google/EyVZfHb9NgIbtXlAl
|
| It is a short text, but parsing it into individual words is
| quite a challenge.
| skylurk wrote:
| Hmm I see your point, though to be fair, that Roman writing
| is also missing spacing and punctuation.
|
| My guess is the author knows what they are doing and is
| intentionally reinforcing the disoriented and unsettled
| feeling. Or, at least, is intentionally making no effort to
| mitigate it.
|
| (In many other posts, capitalisation rules are followed.)
| mettamage wrote:
| One of the few posts where I was happy to not see any comments
| yet, lest I would just read all the comments and not the story
| cyanmagenta wrote:
| I love all the unexpected twists in this. And it's very
| beautifully written and sobering.
|
| > the most important thing was to find xin fu in life, not to
| live your life in accordance to the expectations of anyone else
|
| That is why I write all of my code in uncommented C. Your
| expectation of a maintainable program that doesn't segfault all
| the time is just your expectation.
|
| > he wasted his entire life, my mom said
|
| In some ways, she did too by listening to her mother and not just
| getting divorced as she had wanted to. But I recognize that going
| against your family's core beliefs is easier said than done.
| lazide wrote:
| There is no path without some things missed, or regretted. Some
| people will always see the regrets, some will always see the
| positives.
|
| That it is any other way is just something we tell ourselves to
| try to provide more foresight or potential meaning than is
| really available.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| "He wasted his life", sounds so dramatic, but what does it really
| mean. It's just an emotion like regret triggered by made up
| standards. If things were different and in the end they would
| have said "he lived his best life", what difference would it make
| except a few different words, differently arranged.
|
| Not sure what my point is, but perhaps being too much into
| Buddhism and similar things made me lose touch with more normal
| human emotions.. or I live in regret myself and push it aside,
| ha.
| ninalanyon wrote:
| The waste is that he, and I too, could have lived a happier
| life had we had the courage and opportunity to come out
| earlier.
| tossandthrow wrote:
| The thing is, that This is speculation (with all respect).
|
| I, on the other hand, do not lack courage to do hard things.
| But I have learned that it is a strawman - it does not make
| you happier to quite you job, leave your spouse, go for your
| passion in a startup, etc.
|
| Luckily I fucked up everything in that fever dream early
| enough that it did not have substantiel impact on my life.
| dbancajas wrote:
| tell us your story
| tossandthrow wrote:
| So many people are telling this story. Ryan Holiday, Mark
| Manson, Michael Easter, Marcus Aurelius.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| There is no way that any of us, including the man and the
| author, know that he would have been happier had he made
| different decisions.
| tsol wrote:
| He wanted to have a different life, but he didn't embrace it.
| Instead he lied to his wife and lover. In a more recent update
| he was cheating on his way lover as well, so he comes out
| looking pretty bad. At the end of the story everyone in his
| family is hurt by his actions. Send like he wasted his life and
| hers if that was the best he could do
| augment_me wrote:
| There is some sociology/psychology research based on concepts
| like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs that motivate human
| behavior. There is also memoirs of Bonnie Ware, "Regrets of the
| Dying", where she as a nurse at an old folks home over several
| years interviewed people who are about to die and their regrets
| turn out to be:
|
| not living a life true to oneself, working too hard, not having
| the courage to express feelings, losing touch with friends, and
| not allowing oneself to be happier.
|
| With a heavy overweight on the first point. I think that the
| comment "he wasted his life" is supposed to be in reference to
| this, that most people realize at the end that nothing really
| mattered, and that they chose to follow the structures of
| society by default instead of daring to do what they inherently
| wanted intrinsically. Then you can feel as your life was
| wasted, you got a single chance to play around and do what you
| like with your brief time in the universe and you chose to let
| someone else dictate how that was going to go, a waste.
| james-bcn wrote:
| It mentions "boskovitch's installation". I looked it up:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Fan_(Feel_It_Motherfu...
| harry8 wrote:
| https://x.com/handbarfs/status/1741365674008559962
| skylurk wrote:
| There's a follow-up posted already too.
|
| https://www.jenn.site/my-dead-deadbeat-gay-dad/
| Mistletoe wrote:
| Yeah kind of wish I hadn't read that one. But the whole truth
| is always best to know. Somehow makes his story so much more
| sad.
|
| Edit: Oh my goodness didn't realize this was the same Dad from:
| https://jenn.site/my-dad-could-still-be-alive-but-hes-not/
| noobermin wrote:
| Ok...
|
| This is writing about a real person. I certainly hope you
| don't see yourself as so one dimensional, why should others
| be?
| Mistletoe wrote:
| What?
| djohnston wrote:
| This is a sad story but I don't like that the onus is entirely on
| the father to have ended things and lived his best life. He also
| was under pressure. He also had a family and was trying to juggle
| things the best way he knew how. It is tragic to live this way
| but I cannot consider him a villain of any sort.
| dtech wrote:
| There's a follow up linked a few times in the thread, and
| unfortunately he looks to be pretty villanous
| lazide wrote:
| The person who ends up making decisions which underpin what
| actually happens, almost always does.
|
| It's easy to throw them under the bus, but the followers
| generally always know what's going on - when they aren't
| actively avoiding it anyway.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| People are rarely anything less than complicated.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| None of us here ever knew the man, and the only reports we
| have on his life are from a pseudo anon author who admits
| that they also did not know him very well. That any of us,
| including the author, are justified in calling him
| "villanous" is a big stretch in my opinion. It feels more
| likely that the author, and perhaps you, simply disagree with
| the decisions he made. Which is fine, but a far cry from
| villainy.
| fragmede wrote:
| We don't have a 24/7/365 video feed of the man's life with
| which to throughly judge him on, this is true. So casting
| him as a villian based on this shadow caricature version of
| a story we've been told might be unfair to the actual
| person. We're not Michael at the heavenly gates or Osiris
| or Anubis though, we're just going off of what's been
| written. Do the actions of that man as described not
| qualify as villainous to you? It's small, affecting only
| the lives of those in his immediate vicinity. But it's
| still not good. Maybe little V villainy not big V villainy
| like Voldemort?
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| It's mind-boggling to me how many commenters are here to defend
| the honor of a serial adulterer who broke the hearts of the
| people most related to and dependent upon him. Truly can't
| understand where this sympathy comes from...
| tdeck wrote:
| There are a number of comments here that read like "yes, but
| you have to understand those things benefitted the father".
| It's like people think if you're doing something that hurts
| other people, it's OK if that's for selfish reasons? I guess
| I'll try not to think of how this reflects on our industry as
| a whole.
| astura wrote:
| >Truly can't understand where this sympathy comes from...
|
| It's because they have no experience with have such a bad
| person in a supposed "caregiver" role in their life so their
| minds literally can't imagine it. They think he just MUST be
| misunderstood instead of just callous and uncaring.
|
| Or they are a parent and can't imagine not carit about their
| own child, so they assume it must be a universal thing, and
| the father MUST have loved her, even if he didn't show it.
| Truth is, a fuck ton of people don't love, like, or give two
| shits about their own children. These people do exist.
|
| It's a truly cruel cognitive dissonance.
| djohnston wrote:
| That isn't true at all so don't speak to my experience. I
| grew up in an abusive household with an alcoholic who
| wasn't an adulterer. It was total shit. If he had instead
| been closeted and cheating without ever disclosing it, as
| seems to be the case here, it would have been vastly
| preferable to have a distant father than what I actually
| lived with.
|
| So respectfully stfu because you have no idea what you're
| talking about.
| astura wrote:
| I also grew up with abusive parents (plural). Poverty,
| substance abuse, mental illness, violence. The whole
| nine. You can check my comment history, I talk about it
| openly on here. Here's one previous comment -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41400583
|
| Others extend clearly bad people who do bad things more
| grace than they deserve if they are parents. You hear
| things like "I'm sure they love their children but are
| stressed and don't know how to express it. It's probably
| hard for them." (Ignoring how hard it is for the innocent
| CHILDREN!)
|
| However, I know from experience there's no love there. No
| like. Only hate.
|
| And there more to this story than a closeted gay man. The
| author made it clear he was also distant as a father and
| wasn't at all a caretaker to her either. All evidence
| from the post points to the fact the father was callous
| and uncaring to those around him. Using others for his
| own gain. The followup shows he was having affairs from
| his affair partner before he died. This is not someone
| who would have been a kind man if he was just allowed to
| come out.
|
| The other thing that immediately stood out to me that
| nobody else is noticing - the father encouraged a man
| half his age to give up his entire life in China to come
| to Canada on a fucking student visa (which is inherently
| temporary) with the, most likely, promise (stated or
| unstated) that he'd marry him and sponsor him as a
| permanent resident and they'd build a new life together.
| All evidence points to deception here. He wasn't making
| moves to legally divorce his wife and was having affairs
| with other men on top of that. You can't legally work on
| a student visa, so the partner would have been entirely
| financially dependent on the father.
| delecti wrote:
| Are people defending his honor, or just offering sympathy?
| Because I don't find sympathy strange at all. He betrayed the
| trust of a lot of people he claimed to care about, but also
| barely had any unfettered happiness in a too-short life. He
| was complicated, as we all are.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| For all we know that entire account is fiction. None of us
| know the man or the author yet we feel content to pass
| judgement on his life from a few paragraphs of from a
| narrator who has made it clear they also didn't know him
| well.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Even though many of us might not relate _exactly_ to the
| circumstances, we can relate to the feelings. She's an excellent
| writer. Some of her other essays are good.
|
| Many years ago, I read _The Bridges of Madison County_. This
| reminds me a bit of that.
| omg2864 wrote:
| I barely comment but this is time it is worthwhile - please read
| the article first, it is worth it and the comments might spoil
| it.
| cinntaile wrote:
| Read the follow-up too, there are some unexpected twists.
|
| https://www.jenn.site/my-dead-deadbeat-gay-dad/
| Vinnl wrote:
| Thank you both, I'm glad I ended up reading these first.
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| Wow, driven to a lifetime of harmful decisions by an
| extremely regressive society. Would he have settled down and
| been faithful if he could have started off right in his
| teens, open and truthful and honest? Lies become a habit and
| I've known others who couldn't break themselves of the
| cheating/lying habit and lost whole friend groups for it.
| Permit wrote:
| Is there anything he could have done that you would not
| excuse by the society in which he was born?
| delecti wrote:
| That comment explained what led him to be that way, but I
| don't think it justified his actions.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| If he killed all of society, it would be hard to blame
| society for that.
| bink wrote:
| Looks like they changed the link.
|
| https://www.jenn.site/dissolution/
| frankdenbow wrote:
| when my mom died i found a bunch of letters she wrote to people
| but never sent. Theres so much to peoples lives that you can
| never fully know and some of the things really shocked me.
| Appreciate you sharing your story, many parallels that I can
| appreciate through reading.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Interesting follow up post, published the same day:
| https://www.jenn.site/my-dead-deadbeat-gay-dad/
| ninalanyon wrote:
| That made me cry.
|
| I don't suppose I shall ever read it again but I have saved it in
| my cache of personal web pages.
|
| I'm so glad I finally came out to my family and friends.
| 0dayman wrote:
| who doesn't love dota :)
| 71bw wrote:
| If we mean the game - then me. I never got over the lack of
| automatically moving camera, I prefer league simply because of
| that.
| quitit wrote:
| From reading both posts, there's a few things that come to my
| mind:
|
| - It seems this is how the author is processing her father's
| passing, and it's not really up to us to make moral calls on the
| content of the posts. They are thoughts with gaps of missing
| context against a real life of highs and lows which is not
| readily condensed into a blog post.
|
| - I'm peering into the life of a private person, that feels like
| a violation. Even though they have passed, the people around them
| are very much alive.
|
| - We can't makes guesses at what a person truly values, neither
| positively nor negatively. What can be seen as promiscuity can
| also be seen as seeking validation, human motives and emotions
| exist in the grey area.
|
| - This is a person who was deprived of the sort of genuine sexual
| and emotional attention that we take for granted from puberty
| age. They lived as a type of outsider in school, work, and their
| daily norms. The integrity of their actions shouldn't be
| evaluated against our own values which were likely built from a
| different life experience.
|
| - It's ok not knowing or judging. One has to practice a type of
| "radical acceptance" when reviewing these sorts of life matters.
| noduerme wrote:
| I agree with all of what you say, and while I thought the
| author was very good, I think calling him a coward was an
| unnecessary stroke of vanity and bitterness. For the same
| reason that no one can ever know what's inside another person's
| mind, much less a child understand their parents.
| pwillia7 wrote:
| It ain't all waiting on you. That's vanity.
| anon84873628 wrote:
| So when can we judge someone a coward then?
| ang_cire wrote:
| > I think calling him a coward was an unnecessary stroke of
| vanity and bitterness.
|
| I think given that the writer, who lived in the same culture
| with the same dangers and expectations, decided to accept the
| risks by coming out, I don't think it's vanity. They did what
| their father was too afraid to do.
|
| It is absolutely bitterness, but I don't think you're in any
| position to judge the appropriate level of bitterness for a
| child to have towards their deadbeat parent.
| fransje26 wrote:
| > I think calling him a coward was an unnecessary stroke of
| vanity and bitterness.
|
| Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.
|
| In the process of grieving, when the emotions are at their
| rawest, it is difficult to not have knee-jerk reactions to
| the emotions that are piling-up fast and strong.
|
| Except for that very slip, I actually found the piece
| impressively objective, level-headed, compassionate and open-
| minded.
| Drupon wrote:
| He was so afraid of coming out that he FORCED his wife to
| never divorce him and kept a lover on the side while cheating
| on him as well with multiple partners at the heights of the
| AIDS epidemic while lying to him that they had a future that
| he was too scared to ever make a reality. If that's not a
| coward, then I don't think you and I can agree on very simple
| definitions of words like "coward".
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| I think she absolutely has a right to her judgment. She
| clearly has empathy for her father, but the rest of her
| family also suffered--greatly, it seems--from how he went
| about his life.
| grayfaced wrote:
| She wrote most of it centered on his perspective (as she
| understands it). And if you take that line as such, then
| you're right. I took that line as bringing another
| perspective to show the damage he caused. She has a lot to
| unpack and showing those conflicts demonstrated it.
| jeswin wrote:
| > One has to practice a type of "radical acceptance" when
| reviewing these sorts of life matters.
|
| Thanks for writing this. The author is working back to define
| some context from which those discovered artifacts came out,
| and that is fraught with danger. And what she discovered might
| be a randomly selected sample of what he really was.
|
| The article almost seems like it was written to seek attention.
| It's a troubling transgression.
| wjnc wrote:
| She has a right to seek attention? And you are right. The
| truth untold and the moments that never were cannot be
| recounted. They can be grieved and part of grief is anger.
|
| I re-learned by my tears when reading this that the only
| thing that counts in life is love and connection. Connections
| not made are missed opportunities.
|
| I lost a parent in my early twenties. Alas, anger was a very
| large part of my emotional arsenal then. Writer could have
| had a role model in her father. If only the truth would have
| been there between father and daughter. Layers upon layers of
| difficult interactions. Thinking about your parents death and
| the period of time they made you, cared for you, formed you,
| hindered you, burdened you with emotional baggage, is
| different with each passing of a few springs.
| scydereal wrote:
| If it were written to seek attention in 2025, it would be on
| substack or twitter, not on a quiet personal website that
| can't go viral unless someone else posts it on hackernews
| tgv wrote:
| For those reasons, I won't even look for such letters when my
| parents die. I will take a photo or two. There are of course
| reasons to dig in the past, but that should be done cautiously,
| not for sensation, and even then under the condition that we
| only know a little and may not understand. The past is past.
| Nothing you learn can change it, but it can seriously fuck up
| your future.
| Alt-F4 wrote:
| >- This is a person who was deprived of the sort of genuine
| sexual and emotional attention that we take for granted from
| puberty age.
|
| This is somewhat close to the incel line of thinking "I deserve
| a girl to have sex with. The fact that every girl refuses to do
| so means I'm a victim."
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| Why link closeted gay men with Incels? There was no shade of
| "deserve" or "victim" in the parent comment. Fact is gay men
| historically have had a very bad time finding love, Incels is
| a weird subgroup of hateful men with negative viewpoints,
| unless I'm out of touch with their zeitgeist.
|
| I just think the comparison comes off as unkind to gay men.
| oh_my_goodness wrote:
| I hope this comment finally seals my departure from HN. Lots
| of very thoughtful people here but the small toxic fraction
| is still too high.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Yes, there are some toxic people here, as in any community
| or population, but there are also thoughtful and
| compassionate people here. This article seems to be mostly
| filled with the latter. I don't know what your experience
| on HN has been but I encourage you to look beyond the that
| unpleasent post and consider the humane majority on this
| pot before you make your decision.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Not at all- human connection and love are important and hard
| for most people to live without. There's nothing wrong with
| acknowledging that. The problem with incels is they feel
| entitled to that, and use it as a basis to fuel hate towards
| others for denying them what they feel entitled to- and there
| is no sense of that sentiment in the comment you replied to.
| johncolanduoni wrote:
| Most people do deserve to be able to form emotional and
| sexual connections, and most people that are unable to in
| practice are not incels and deserve sympathy without
| complication. They're victims, but only in the same sense
| that someone can be the victim of a hurricane. The important
| bit is that no person has a duty to be the one to provide
| those connections.
| armada651 wrote:
| > They're victims, but only in the same sense that someone
| can be the victim of a hurricane.
|
| What about those that can't form connections because of
| emotional abuse in their past? I wouldn't call them victims
| of a hurricane like it's some kind of unpreventable natural
| disaster. They're victims of their abusers and the people
| in their life that didn't intervene to stop the abuse.
| tsol wrote:
| People seem to disagree with this comment but it makes sense.
| Lots of people get no genuine sexually or emotional attention
| sure to severe disabilities, cultural incompatibility, weight
| issues, or simply because they don't know how to socialize
| properly. It's odd to say they can't live a full life, just
| because they didn't kiss a girl in the 9th grade.
|
| If relationships are so key to the human experience, the
| incels would be right. They argue society should feel bad for
| them and accommodate them, because not being able to get
| sexual attention keeps them from having a normal life.
|
| Not that I agree with them, but it seems odd to place so much
| value on relationships, except when people complain it's a
| problem they can't get one. I have a severely disabled friend
| who talks about wanting to get married every day. No one has
| ever shown him that kind of affection and I don't think
| anyone ever will. That's life for some people unfortunately.
| If you keep telling them they're missing out on the most
| important part of life of course it just makes them more
| frustrated
| eptcyka wrote:
| Human relationships are a key part of most lives. Incels
| might have a point, but that does not imply that they have
| a solution to their own woes.
| creata wrote:
| Yep. The world's a cruel place. The only choice for some
| people is to look beyond it for happiness.
| anon84873628 wrote:
| That's individuals deciding not to be with other
| individuals. It's not two people of the same sex who want
| to be with each other but are arbitrarily prohibited by the
| rest of society.
| thunky wrote:
| > I'm peering into the life of a private person, that feels
| like a violation. Even though they have passed, the people
| around them are very much alive.
|
| Absolutely. A person's right to privacy doesn't die with them.
| charles_f wrote:
| > It's ok not knowing or judging
|
| > One has to practice a type of "radical acceptance"
|
| Here's a funny thing, what I got from that story was that it
| must have been a hard and sad life for the dad, probably the
| mom, and especially a horrifying discovery for the mom. These
| are not judgments, but tidbits of empathy and sadness for all
| the parties involved. I didn't have to force myself into that,
| probably because it didn't clash with my personality or values.
|
| If something made you tick and you want to condemn one of the
| people in the story, I'm wondering if forcing your brain into
| "accepting" would make any difference. The real question is
| what you feel for the other person. I think it might come out
| as a judgment if it clashes with your actual values and
| personality. If you don't recognize yourself and would have had
| a different approach, you might have a negative outlook on the
| people in the story.
|
| I'm extremely lucky to be a straight dude in the progressive
| society of today's. Had I been a gay guy in the traditional
| Chinese culture of the 80s, I'd probably have had the same life
| as that dad, and employ some of the same strategies. So it's
| easy for me not to judge. But some people are more upfront,
| active, liberated, and for them it might be harder not to judge
| ; and I think that's fine.
| shevy-java wrote:
| > he wasted his entire life, my mom said to me, the evening we
| found the love letters. his entire life, and mine as well.
|
| People need to seriously plan and manage a marriage if they
| decide to go through with it.
| degamad wrote:
| Some people don't really get to "decide" for themselves.
|
| FTA:
|
| > my parents were not a love match. at 27 and 26, they were
| embarrassingly old by the standards of their small chinese port
| town. all four of my grandparents exerted enormous pressure to
| force them together.
| dartharva wrote:
| Interesting anecdote, but for the life of me I can't understand
| what relevance this blogpost could have here on HackerNews
| darrenf wrote:
| Quoting the "what to submit" guidelines: _If you had to reduce
| it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies
| one 's intellectual curiosity._
| vacuity wrote:
| I find it very hard to judge whether I'm fulfilling that part
| of the guidelines. I only have a few submissions, and I think
| I'm good there, but I'm more conflicted when it comes to
| upvoting or engaging in other people's submissions. For
| example, earlier today I saw a thread on German laws on date
| rape drugs. I upvoted the thread. Do I think it's important
| for people to talk about date rape drugs? Certainly. I'm not
| sure if it falls under satisfying my "intellectual
| curiosity", though. Is HN "the right place" for this
| conversation? I'm not sure, though I think the reality on the
| ground would say "yes". Most likely, all of this is an
| organic adaptation that HN has experienced.
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| Don't be a phony. Be true to yourself. Don't let your life be
| governed by the mores of others.
|
| This article isn't about sexuality. It's about honesty and the
| impact that artifice can have, not only on your own life, but
| also on the lives of others.
|
| _Quite_ applicable to the HN crowd.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| not everything in life is databases and ai
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I see these comments on most HN threads that aren't about tech
| stuff, but to me these are the best part of HN. I think it
| should include things people in tech who are also humans find
| interesting and want to discuss, like this, not just
| discussions of the latest cpu architecture or whatever. If you
| don't find it interesting ignore it, and the algorithm will
| make it go away on its own if most people agree!
| nmz wrote:
| But that's why I'm in HN, If I wanted to read this, I would
| be in reddit.
| fsckboy wrote:
| just as HN is segregated from the majority of the web by
| focused interests within the community at large, within this
| community there could also be segregation of interests. you
| don't need to try to stamp it out every time you hear about
| it, that's like the web trying to stamp out HN
| kid64 wrote:
| Because she mentions Obsidian. Though I don't hold that against
| her.
| throwaway142351 wrote:
| I'm a dad too, and I'm in a somewhat similar situation. My son is
| under five, and it feels like I'm still at the very beginning of
| his story. I've known I was gay since high school, probably even
| earlier, but I kept choosing whatever seemed like the easiest
| path. It felt easier to stay closeted. Easier to date a woman.
| Easier to move in together, propose, get married, and even have a
| child than to face my truth.
|
| I love my wife and my son, and I feel loved by them in return,
| but I'm also painfully aware that the version of me they love is
| someone I constructed. I lie constantly: about why I don't want
| sex, about my affairs, about my feelings, about my motivations.
| No one really knows me, and I don't get to be myself, not even in
| the relationships where I should feel safest.
|
| I've read _The Courage to Be Disliked_ by Ichiro Kishimi and
| other similar books, and I 'm trying to build the courage to
| finally do something about all of this. It's incredibly
| difficult. But I refuse to use my son as an excuse to keep
| postponing coming out. This blog has pushed me even further in
| that direction.
|
| They'll be angry (well at least my wife). Their lives will be
| upended. But at least they'll have the chance to ask questions,
| to understand. They'll see me taking responsibility for the
| consequences of my choices, and maybe just maybe, in some way,
| that clarity will be a relief for all of us.
| pfdietz wrote:
| I'm straight and love my wife of 44 years. But I long ago made
| the thought experiment of what would happen if she were in the
| same kind of situation you were in: what if she decided I was a
| mistake, or that being in a relation with a man was a mistake,
| and that she needed to do something else. I decided that would
| require I support her in that. How can you love someone and not
| want what is best for them, even if that has a cost?
|
| I don't know your wife, and I don't know if she would feel the
| same way. Maybe she would?
| 71bw wrote:
| I can relate to this probably the most out of everything I've
| seen on HN so far. My fiancee is pansexual and overall seems
| to prefer women, so I surely am quite a bit of a surprise in
| her life (to the point where her family laughed at the fact
| that I 'fixed her' the first time I met them...) as a
| straight man. I know she loves me, I love her with all my
| heart but I am aware that at some point she may want to
| change me for someone of the opposite sex. I have therefore
| decided that as long as this does not happen behind my back I
| will support her, even if that means I have to endure a lot
| of pain.
| jemmyw wrote:
| I don't really see why you should support that. In your
| case your wife is not closeted and living a lie, everything
| is out in the open. So deciding to change you for someone
| else, regardless of sex, is no different than if I decided
| to change my wife for another woman. We give stuff up to
| make a commitment to someone else. It doesn't always work
| out and I'm not saying people should stay together when
| they don't want to, but I am questioning your pre-
| acceptance of your partner wanting to shag someone else
| even though that would clearly make you very unhappy.
| rosstex wrote:
| "Prefer women" could be in a sexual context, romantic
| context, platonic, etc. and the commenter above didn't
| define it. I imagine it's hard enough for bisexual people
| to be asked if they're "living a lie" by having to choose
| a side.
| bad_haircut72 wrote:
| For you and anyone else reading this I recommend the book
| "the designer relationship" - its actually about polyamory
| but I think it does a great job solidifying the concept
| that really, a relationship between two people can be
| basically whatever they want it to be, not defined by
| social norms. What comes first is open and honest
| communication and negotating through hard conversations to
| find a way of mutually meeting everyones needs
|
| FWIW my wife is bi and dates women, not that really ever
| bothered me but in no way has it ever been more damaging to
| our marriage beyond basic scheduling conflicts. I will
| admit I would have had a much harder time opening up to her
| being with other men though. Im lucky that she has never
| fallen in love and wanted to run away with one of em I
| guess, but partly thats because our marriage is otherwise
| great and shes already free to explore her gay side so why
| would she want to leave?
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Designer-Relationships-Monogamy-
| Polya...
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| This stuff doesn't work for most men. Most Men aren't ok
| with the idea that their partner is fucking other men.
| It's literally a biological instinct.
| ReluctantLaser wrote:
| It is tough to overcome jealousy/insecurity and to have
| that level of trust, for anyone, I agree. Phrasing it as
| biological wiring, I'm not sure fits.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| It does fit. There's actually science on this.
|
| In experiments they have found that women are much more
| ok with sexual infidelity than men. They aren't fully ok
| with it just more ok with it than men by a huge margin.
| There's a huge gender difference and given how culture
| doesn't differentiate this aspect in terms of teaching,
| logically the only origin is biological.
|
| It fits with evolutionary psychology as well. If a wife
| engages in sexual infidelity a man could end up raising a
| child that is not his own and that is a huge evolutionary
| cost so men evolved to be extremely guarded against
| sexual affairs while for women the cost is just a man
| potentially raising another child. She loses resources of
| the man but if the man doesn't raise another child it's
| not as huge of a deal. This isn't stuff I'm making up...
| it's academic.
|
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/15100808375
| 5.h...
|
| For you to be in a polyamorous relationship you are
| definitely overriding your default biological drive and
| giving evolutionary advantages to your mate (if she is
| female and you male). Birth control largely eliminates
| this cost but the emotional states are the same in the
| sense that is a form of submission. Case in point: Most
| likely it is the female partner that initiated polyamory
| and the male partner who had to learn how to accept it.
| miltonlost wrote:
| Between this, a post about disrespecting your wife if
| they have sex during an open relationship, and your other
| post about emotional violence being inflicted on a child
| if their parent comes out as gay, you need to seek some
| therapy. This is major incel vibes.
| hatefulmoron wrote:
| I admit that when reading the description of your
| relationship (I don't mean to be disrespectful, for what
| it's worth) I can't help but wonder how it can possibly
| be consistent with "a relationship between two people can
| be basically whatever they want it to be." It really
| reads like the relationship is whatever _she_ wants it to
| be.
|
| If you had come into the relationship with the
| understanding that you'd both date/have sex with other
| people then great; it doesn't matter what other people
| think. However, when you say that it was hard for you to
| accept her being with other men, and that you're lucky
| that "she has never fallen in love and wanted to run away
| with one of em", damn. My first instinct is that you
| should take your own advice: find or design a
| relationship where you don't have to accept this.
|
| I realize that some of my knee jerk reaction might just
| be instinct/cultural values, I mean no disrespect.
| bad_haircut72 wrote:
| If I didnt like it, I would leave. Reread the post though
| you misinterpreted our situation.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| That's really noble of you. I disrespect her a lot if she
| does that.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| You have a right to have firm boundaries and communicate
| them clearly to your partner. Doing so will usually make a
| relationship and life together better, not worse because
| your partner will respect your honesty and strength. If her
| doing that will hurt you, I strongly recommend you
| communicate clearly and up front that you know she has
| those interests, but following up on them is a deal breaker
| for you, and you need her to be honest about that. You're
| not even married yet, have the conversation now! It won't
| be good for you or for her to be an angry shell of yourself
| like the dad in the article, making a sacrifice you never
| wanted to make.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| dude fuck that - cheating is cheating - don't be _that_ guy
| (unless you 're into that sort of thing, of course). if she
| feels that you aren't the one for her, drop it like it's
| hot. there's plenty of other fish in the sea
| anon84873628 wrote:
| Besides what everyone else said, just get yourself a pre-
| nup too :-)
| ryanjshaw wrote:
| There's a big difference between changing and lying. I
| wouldn't be happy if my spouse lied to me.
| pfdietz wrote:
| I wouldn't be happy either, but I'd be understanding.
| Everyone is human. Everyone lies, even to themselves.
| ryanjshaw wrote:
| Not all lies are equal. Marriage is a contract built on
| trust and commitment. When you have been lying about
| _that_ specifically, you have defrauded someone.
|
| You've stolen time and emotional energy from these
| people. They can never get those years back.
|
| Your children have been deprived of seeing parents role
| modeling romantic love. They have built their entire
| world views based on your behavior towards your spouse,
| which incorporated subtle lies and deception.
|
| The victims of your fraud now have to deal with second
| guessing which things you said might be true and which
| might be lies - you shatter everything they ever believed
| throughout the marriage. It is a horrendous thing to put
| people through.
|
| So can I understand why they did it? Sure. But I will
| definitely judge them for their actions and not support
| them.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| Exactly. I've even seen cases of murder where I
| sympathize with the perpetrator. But we need to not get
| too involved with the narrators plight. It's a first
| person story and it's easy to get strung along by that
| perspective.
|
| For the article and the many admissions in the thread
| underneath people can't just pay attention to and
| sympathize with the perpetrator you need to take the next
| step an construct realistic avatars for his relationships
| and visualize the intense damage done to them as well.
| pfdietz wrote:
| It's also built on forgiveness, because no one can
| possibly not ever need that.
| swat535 wrote:
| I think you're a better person than I am.
|
| Obviously I can only speak for myself here but I wouldn't
| be so understanding, especially when my partner lied
| about such a fundamental aspect of their life and joined
| in a union of marriage with me.
|
| I suppose, for me it would feel like the vows they took
| where not real and the foundation of our life, all the
| memories, thoughts and feelings were nothing but smoke
| and mirrors.
|
| You're right, we're all humans and life is complex but I
| think it's selfish to waste your partner's life for years
| because you can't face the truth. I suppose that a bitter
| end is better than endless bitterness however.
| Arubis wrote:
| Lots of judgment all over this thread. I vote more of us
| listen to anecdotes like this one here, from someone whose
| long and successful relationship is based on wanting the best
| for someone else--who they recognize as human and fallible--
| even when that means change.
|
| If you want marriage to mean that your partner will never
| change, or that the 100% match on the inside what you think
| they are looking from the outside, you're gonna have a hard
| time. This discussion is just further down the continuum than
| most.
|
| (Exceptions made for arranged marriages and the like; the
| primary purpose there isn't romantic love-based
| companionship, so there isn't a pretense to shatter.)
| vacuity wrote:
| I think this is a good example of how lying can affect one's
| autonomy (though I don't remotely hold that as an absolute
| principle). In the ideal exercise of love, I agree with your
| claim. I don't think it's dismantled in practice, but I think
| it is weaker. The spouse fell in love with "someone", but it
| turns out it's just a dummy of the other spouse. To some
| extent, probably everyone only loves or even perceives
| imperfect images of others, but this takes it a step further.
| I think this is somewhat different from supporting a
| disabled/ill spouse, because that condition arose through no
| fault of anyone (presumably). I think this is also different
| from a spouse, sometime into the marriage, realizing a
| different romantic/sexual orientation, because no one
| could've known at the time of marriage (presumably).
| pfdietz wrote:
| I'll add another scenario like this would be if ones partner
| had an egg-breaking epiphany and decided they needed to
| transition. And my personal conclusion would be the same.
| lvl155 wrote:
| Do what's best for your son. There's nothing that will overcome
| that guilt. Not saying what's best for your son is for you to
| reveal the truth now or later. That's entirely situational and
| only you know.
| ycombinete wrote:
| I completely agree. Life as a parent is only about oneself
| insofar as looking after yourself is good for your family.
| spongebobstoes wrote:
| children mimic the actions and lifestyle of their parents
|
| being a role model means demonstrating how to be happy
|
| an existence proof of a good and happy life is a powerful
| thing
|
| people learn at a young age that words are cheap. advice
| doesn't cut it
| tempestn wrote:
| I don't think it's fair to consider only the son in this. I'd
| say do what's best for both your son and your wife. And to me
| that's pretty clearly telling his wife the truth here.
| mc32 wrote:
| I think this is right. Many parents could think of choosing
| to opt out because raising a family can be difficult
| sometimes, but it's a responsibility people have taken. Take
| it seriously. It's a bit chicken to say "I'm out" whatever
| the reason. See them through their formative years then do
| your thing.
| jhanschoo wrote:
| I'm pretty certain that children are quite perceptive, and will
| sense an unease that something is not quite right at home. It
| would be a service to them to put something concrete to that
| unease.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| I disagree. The emotional violence erupting from such a
| revelation would cancel out any benefit from releasing that
| unease.
| ddawson wrote:
| Wow, I'm reading this very differently. I don't know why
| there has to be emotional violence erupting. Handling
| something that's fundamentally changed at the core of a
| relationship and at the core of one's identity will bring
| strong emotions but it doesn't have to be violent. It can
| also be handled with all the best qualities we all have
| like patience, curiosity, support, trust. Strong
| relationships can grow stronger after being tested.
| miltonlost wrote:
| A kid can handle a gay parent. A kid can handle a divorce.
| It's not some apocaplypse.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This, look at the stats on how kids fare after these
| events compared to the death of a parent. Lies have
| consequences.
| gedy wrote:
| Since you took this path, I'd suggest you not have affairs
| while married. Either divorce now or consider waiting 10 years
| while your son really needs you.
| bad_haircut72 wrote:
| Yeah if you wanna be closeted, fine - live like it then.
| Otherwise it proves getting your dick wet is actually more
| important to you than the wife and child you claim to love.
| tgv wrote:
| Try to do it peacefully, and keep good relations. That may
| require a lot of preparation, time, and emotional dealing, but
| you're weighing your struggle with your history against two
| lives. It may also be in your interest, because a fighting
| divorce may end with you not seeing your son. That's a price
| _I_ consider too high.
| brabel wrote:
| Do you plan to find a new relationship after you break up with
| your wife? Is the desire to come out because of that or because
| you just want to stop lying to them and be honest about who you
| are? I will just say that if you have a good relationship with
| your wife and child, perhaps it's worth it keeping things to
| yourself until your son is out of the house. If you leave them,
| you might find yourself in terrible relationships for a long
| time, or you may strike luck. But as someone who never managed
| to have a good relationship and family I wish I had a wife who
| actually wants sex and children and if I had that I would never
| leave even if I had to sacrifice a lot. But I do want that,
| maybe you never really did!?
| nvarsj wrote:
| I know it may seem like the hardest thing ever - but you are
| doing the right thing. Come out, end the sham, start to heal.
| Otherwise you are in for a life of pain. I'm not gay but I'm
| divorced and whatever the reason for the divorce, it is always
| hard. But it's so much better afterwards, rather than living in
| a lie of a relationship.
| sokka_h2otribe wrote:
| Consider finding a therapist and quality couples counselor to
| help you navigate the necessary rupture as you take steps
| towards honesty and clarity in your relationships
| quacked wrote:
| Read The Last Psychiatrist blog.
|
| "If you're going to pretend to be someone, why not pretend to
| be someone who doesn't hit on the cocktail waitress when he's
| away from his family?"
|
| Edit: found the exact quote:
|
| > "I feel like I am playing a part, that I'm in a role. It
| doesn't feel real."
|
| > Instead of trying to stop playing a role-- again, a move
| whose aim is your happiness-- try playing a different role
| whose aim is someone else's happiness. Why not play the part of
| the happy husband of three kids? Why not pretend to be devoted
| to your family to the exclusion of other things? Why not play
| the part of the man who isn't tempted to sleep with the woman
| at the airport bar?
|
| > "But that's dishonest, I'd be lying to myself." Your kids
| will not know to ask: so?
|
| > The narcissist demands absolutism in all things-- relative to
| himself.
|
| From this article:
|
| https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cu...
|
| Note that I am not accusing you of being a narcissist, merely
| saying that you may find this blog very interesting.
| RebeccaTheDev wrote:
| > _I 've known I was gay since high school, probably even
| earlier, but I kept choosing whatever seemed like the easiest
| path._
|
| Just so you know, you're not alone here. Mine was a bit
| different (gender related) but the causes are essentially the
| same: I just kept choosing whatever path was easiest instead of
| facing what I was actually feeling. It made me fabulously
| "successful" at life and I had everything that you would expect
| to come along: wife, kid, big house, fancy job. It's a hard
| feeling to reconcile - being so successful in what most of
| society would say you should be ... and yet still so miserable.
|
| So, I see you. <3
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Have you considered that it doesn't have to mean the end of
| your family? It's possible that there's no arrangement that
| meets everybody's needs. But, maybe there is.
| flowerthoughts wrote:
| > the version of me they love is someone I constructed
|
| It's also possible they love you because you are someone who
| can love them, even though it doesn't feel quite right. You're
| there for them.
|
| I don't have the full picture, but thinking they don't love the
| real you seems simplistic. You're the sum of all parts and
| layers, not just what you consider core feelings. We're all
| putting on facades.
| mountainriver wrote:
| More power to you my friend, your situation is very common, and
| the result of a highly homophonic society.
|
| Good on you for recognizing it and taking steps, there is lots
| of support around if you need it
| siva7 wrote:
| Did it ever occur to her that he wanted a child with his wife?
| That he loved his wife - even though not romantically? And still
| had a happy life as a father of her? The author seems to have
| many misconceptions about gay people..
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| The author mentions in the follow-up that she is gay herself.
| astura wrote:
| She also mentioned it in TFA too.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Of course!
| James_K wrote:
| It does not sound as such if you read the content of the post.
| It's hardly a misconception to suggest that gay men do not
| generally fall in love with women.
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > It does not sound as such if you read the content of the
| post. It's hardly a misconception to suggest that gay men do
| not generally fall in love with women.
|
| Aside from the fact that this premise is incorrect, it's also
| inapplicable, because, as far as the essay mentions, the
| father never said he was gay.
| pkrotich wrote:
| Man... the battle between cultural expectations and our true
| selves is humanity's oldest conflict. A few people get lucky.
| Most of us survive in the cracks.
|
| No capitalization was as surprising as the narration itself...
| not sure how to feel about it! Counter culture?
| webdevver wrote:
| honestly ive had it with the shift key myself. just a nuisance.
| besides, the text looks much nicer and 'even' when every letter
| is broadly the same height, but that is ofcourse subjective.
|
| it would be good to track down the 'etymology' of capital
| letters.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Capital letters came first.
| jll29 wrote:
| SIC*EST
| nkrisc wrote:
| Capital letters at the start of sentences makes reading
| easier for those who are used to reading languages where that
| is customary. The absence is a noticeable reduction in ease
| of reading.
|
| > it would be good to track down the 'etymology' of capital
| letters.
|
| Easy: Latin script.
|
| The more interesting question is the source of lower case
| letters which appeared much later.
| forinti wrote:
| Although I feel that many countries have transitioned to a time
| of liberty, when people can live as they truly wish, some people
| are afraid to embrace this freedom.
|
| Of course, families can be a powerful force.
|
| But, as my father once told me: family are those who are near you
| [not necessarily those you share genes with].
| lazide wrote:
| Sometimes, people make the decisions they do because others
| they saw before them made the opposite decision too - or they
| made the decision they did because they felt the consequences
| of making it any other way would be worse.
| lvl155 wrote:
| It's always surprising to me how so many people believe in
| ideals. Finding love. Living happily thereafter. These are ideals
| and you'd be truly lucky to have it in your life. One in a
| billion. Life is ephemeral. We are innately fickle beings
| shifting from one equilibrium to another. Yet we long for a
| mirage of permanence.
| tsol wrote:
| Judging by the follow up that reveals he was cheating on his
| lover as well and had been doing it for years he seems to agree
| with your last two lines. He got the most out of life, but hurt
| his lover, wife and daughter in the process
| tired-turtle wrote:
| You don't find love: you build it together.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It's obviously part of the human condition to yearn for the
| ideal/divine/essential.
| begueradj wrote:
| At least he hid a part of his nature because of social pressure.
| Nowadays people live in disguise at will.
| pavlov wrote:
| Ouch. This hits incredibly hard.
|
| I've been this dad who sits frozen at the TV every evening. I had
| the affairs with the emotionally unavailable men, and became one
| myself.
|
| Before you judge the man in this story too harshly -- and there's
| certainly much to judge, especially given the follow-up post --
| consider the environment he and I grew up in. Being gay as a
| young teenager in the early 1990s could feel literally like a
| death sentence. AIDS panic was everywhere. Gay men in movies were
| comedy sidekicks or dying wrecks ("Philadelphia"). There was a
| real threat of violence from other kids. If you could pass as
| straight, why wouldn't you give it your best shot? The
| alternative was to be a laughing stock and die alone in a
| hospital where nurses don't dare touch you. (This is literally
| how I imagined gay life at age 13.)
|
| I still feel like I'm barely getting started on the therapy
| journey to recover from those decades. Seems like the man in the
| story never had the chance for professional help (or didn't seek
| it). The compartmentalization can be extremely taxing. He
| disappointed many people, but that doesn't mean he was a bad
| person.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| I have heard this play out too many times.
|
| Most recently here, a college junior's wife revealed four
| months after marriage that she is actually a lesbian (she
| didn't share it - he caught her in their bedroom with a
| colleague of hers when he returned home early from the office),
| and he would be free to do what he wants; she should be too.
| Hit him hard, but he said they should go for an annulment-- out
| of question; a divorce-- out of question. Her point was if she
| had to do all this, why would she have agreed to a marriage in
| the first place! It was to get society off her back and her
| parents.
|
| Well, he filed for divorce, and it resulted in false dowry
| cases (yes, it's that part of the world), cruelty.. a long
| list. He was in lock-up for almost a month and a half, his
| almost 80 father and 70 mother was in a case of beating her up
| - (they met her exactly once - two days after marriage for a
| day when they went to his native village and after that they
| barely even talked to her on phone when they came back to they
| city they worked in), he lost almost everything he had, and
| finally, he just broke down in court and, against his lawyer's
| advice, just told the judge to give her whatever the judge
| wanted and just grant him a divorce. This was after almost
| three or four years of struggle. This guy is damaged now. We
| were in two sports team together in the college. One of the
| gentlest people I know. He had a minor stroke recently. He has
| sleeping issues. He is still fighting to just stay alive. It's
| difficult for him to get jobs because there's police record
| against him. He worked for a major MNC bank and he was fired
| summarily.
|
| No, this is not an isolated cruel example of extreme and from
| the hinterland of the world - this is an example of people
| fucking others over, mercilessly. No, this is not fighting to
| stay afloat in the water. It's like kicking someone off the
| boat because they were closer to the life jacket on the boat by
| few feet of another available lifeboat that the person could
| have taken instead. No, it's actually worse!
|
| I am sorry for how the world treated you and him, but no, fuck
| no! Life fucked him - or could have fucked him, so he gets to
| fuck others, right? Awesome!
|
| > but that doesn't mean he was a bad person.
|
| No, he is a bad person! Ffs.
| geoffmanning wrote:
| > No, he is a bad person! Ffs
|
| That is quite the judgement of a person you've never known,
| based solely on the view of one person's brief writing
| processing a deeply emotional experience.
|
| Your judgement reflects poorly on you.
| l2silver wrote:
| There's too much apologizing for people's horrible actions
| these days. Nearly everyone is a sympathetic character when
| you get to know them, but that doesn't excuse them. There
| were other people, in his situation, who took different
| approaches that didn't result in locking a woman away in a
| loveless marriage for her entire life. I'm sure a lot of us
| come from easier situations, but the people who come from
| hard situations will probably tell you, yeah, it was hard,
| it was horrible, but he didn't have to do that.
| geoffmanning wrote:
| I'm not apologizing for anyone's actions. This is not to
| say he is a good person. It is to say that there isn't
| enough evidence to judge one as a bad person.
|
| A lot of good people have made bad choices, and these
| writings reflect a mere sliver of a man's life choices
| from the very thin perspective of one person's grief laid
| bare.
| schneems wrote:
| I agree. To me, it's like a blameless retro. You can
| either seek understanding or seek blame, but not both at
| once.
|
| The author seemingly had a lot of judgement and blame for
| the dad before finding this out. It sounds like they are
| seeking understanding. I think the last line makes that
| clear:
|
| > the evening we found the love letters. his entire life,
| and mine as well
|
| And it's not to say someone can't attach judgement to
| characters, or that no one should hold blame. But I think
| it's important to honor what the author is seeking.
| 101011 wrote:
| > You can either seek understanding or seek blame, but
| not both at once.
|
| This is the first I've heard this statement (not
| necessarily the idea), but I found it incredibly
| beautiful in it's simplicity - thanks for sharing!
|
| Are there origins to this that you're aware of? With some
| searching I found some adjacent thread lines to stoicism
| and Buddhism, but nothing quite the same.
| tome wrote:
| Is it even remotely appropriate to blame without first
| understanding? In which case, doesn't this perspective
| completely rule out the possibility of any appropriate
| blame?
| schneems wrote:
| > Is it even remotely appropriate to blame without first
| understanding?
|
| Yet, blame is easy and satisfying and true understanding
| requires empathy and is hard and often unsatisfying.
|
| The term "understanding" is fractal and infinite.
| Therefore Its 100% reasonable to find a stopping point
| and say "I blame you" (or, as you point out, otherwise,
| no one would ever be allowed to assign blame).
|
| My comment is more about intent. The "seeking" word
| weights heavy. Many commenters are not seeking
| understanding, they are seeking satisfaction. Validation.
| The author of the post could have stopped much sooner if
| they were seeking blame, they could have chosen to build
| a caricature to heap more judgement upon. But they chose
| a more nuanced and exploratory path.
|
| Even if the end result is blame or judgement. It's
| important that the purpose of the journey is clear. True
| understanding requires empathy, and it's really hard to
| empathize with someone you're actively trying to judge or
| vilify.
| schneems wrote:
| I (think I) got it from ReinH on birdsite (before
| everyone left and moved to mastodon and Bluesky). He also
| gave a lot of talks on blameless postmortems and culture
| and general SRE stuff. This is one talk but not sure if
| it touches on the origins
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXrsvLMqF1Q
| vacuity wrote:
| The notions of "blame", "excuse", and "forgiveness" are
| strange to me now. I want to say that understanding is
| key, and everything else follows from understanding. If I
| understand a person's action, I should act, according to
| my values, regarding that person. Consistency to one's
| values is also key. Any emotions, feelings, etc. should
| either be recognized in my values or shouldn't interfere.
| If I am to praise or elevate someone, I should praise or
| elevate that person, and the same if I should rebuke or
| punish someone. Any extraneous desires that would prevent
| me from doing what I should do are to be contained. I
| must understand my values, by which I will understand the
| world, and how I should act within that world is then
| determined.
| throw4847285 wrote:
| I recommend reading Susan Wolf's essay "Blame, Italian
| Style." It's a response to TM Scanlon's contractualist
| approach (as made famous by the TV Show The Good Place),
| and it is a vigorous defense of a concept of blame that
| includes emotions such as anger. Even if you've never
| read any Moral Psychology, it's accessible and thought-
| provoking.
| candybar wrote:
| I think you're misreading that last line. I'm pretty sure
| what the author is saying is:
|
| > the evening we found the love letters my mom said to
| me, "he wasted his entire life, his entire life, and mine
| as well."
|
| Also, I don't think she's seeking one vs the other, nor
| is she judging him less now that she knows he's had a
| bunch of affairs. She's presenting a story and it's
| obvious that she has mixed feelings, full of both
| positive and negative judgement.
| schneems wrote:
| > I don't think she's seeking one vs the other, nor is
| she judging him less now that she knows he's had a bunch
| of affairs. She's presenting a story and it's obvious
| that she has mixed feelings, full of both positive and
| negative judgement.
|
| It sounds like violently agree with everything other than
| my framing and wording choices.
|
| > I think you're misreading that last line.
|
| Maybe. I didn't notice it was a period and not a comma
| until posting it. I still read it as "we found...his
| life" sure maybe they interpret it was him wasting that
| life, but your prior sentiment I quoted is the thing I'm
| emphasizing. I'm not saying there's *no* judgement. I'm
| saying there's a clear (to me) attempt at understanding
| that goes beyond blame.
| candybar wrote:
| > It sounds like violently agree with everything other
| than my framing and wording choices.
|
| No, you previously implied that the discovery of this
| information is somehow leading to less judgment and blame
| and more of an effort to understand.
|
| > The author seemingly had a lot of judgement and blame
| for the dad before finding this out. It sounds like they
| are seeking understanding
|
| If you read the story, it looks to me that prior to
| learning all this she felt bad that he didn't get to have
| a life of his own and sacrificed for her. But she learned
| that this wasn't the case. This is kind of the opposite
| of what you're suggesting.
|
| Also on this:
|
| > You can either seek understanding or seek blame, but
| not both at once.
|
| My point here is that she's doing both.
|
| > Maybe. I didn't notice it was a period and not a comma
| until posting it. I still read it as "we found...his
| life" sure maybe they interpret it was him wasting that
| life, but your prior sentiment I quoted is the thing I'm
| emphasizing. I'm not saying there's _no_ judgement. I 'm
| saying there's a clear (to me) attempt at understanding
| that goes beyond blame.
|
| It's not about the period - it's that she's using italic
| for quote and this is part of her mom's statement.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| There are good and bad actions, not people.
| l2silver wrote:
| There are students who get good grades on their
| assignments and tests, and there are students who get bad
| grades on their assignments and tests, but there are no
| good and bad students.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Does chinese law not allow a woman to individually apply
| for divorce without the partner's consent, or start a
| court case? Seems like they were both 'locked' in similar
| ways.
| l2silver wrote:
| I think I am totally naive on this subject,
|
| why was the divorce so hard for him? In that society, they
| just don't let you get divorced unless both parties agree to
| it? And with the evidence he had of her being a lesbian, does
| that mean nothing? What is even the point of divorce in that
| society?
| mallets wrote:
| I'm guessing India, and it's dowry part of it that
| complicates things a lot. And once either party goes into
| legal proceedings, it becomes a shit slinging mess of he-
| said she-said. Hence why most people try to "settle" things
| out of the court even if they were the victim. You wouldn't
| wish the Indian legal system on your worst enemy.
| fakedang wrote:
| Because it's the great nation of India, where harassment
| and dowry cases and custody laws swing hard in favor of the
| wife. Which has resulted in the worst of both worlds - poor
| women who won't even see a the light of day in front of a
| courthouse, never mind inside it, continue to be oppressed
| by their husbands, while wealthy women tired of their
| marriages hire ever-more-eager lawyers and slap false dowry
| cases on their ex-husbands.
|
| A guy, Atul Subhash, recently (about a year ago) committed
| suicide because his ex-wife and her family slapped false
| dowry cases against him and his extremely aged parents.
| Another case, a woman named Jasleen Kaur falsely accused a
| guy of sexual harassment, because they had a minor argument
| on the street. That case took 4 years, and in the meantime,
| Jasleen went to Canada to study, received the then Chief
| Minister's support and never appeared in court even once.
| Meanwhile the guy, Savjit, was arrested, had to post bail,
| was called "National Predator" and "Delhi's Pervert" on
| mainstream media, and received zilch for all the harassment
| he received. After he was acquitted, he pressed criminal
| charges against Jasleen and her family for false
| accusations, but the courts threw that case away because
| apparently "loss of reputation" isn't enough to press
| charges.
|
| All of this in a backdrop where poor women are raped,
| sometimes even murdered, every single minute, while actual
| rapists walk free and often even freely contest and win
| elections on the current ruling party's ticket. Yeah, India
| is super fucked.
| Drupon wrote:
| Why are you all talking about India when the blog post
| used Chinese words and explicitly said he was in China?
| l2silver wrote:
| One of the parent comments mentioned a similar situation
| involving a colleague who other comments think was from
| India based on the description of the dowry.
| judahmeek wrote:
| Your comment definitely made it sound like the
| victim/husband's suffering came from the culture they lived
| in, not the wife's actions directly.
|
| So I vote for bad system, not bad people.
| StopDisinfo910 wrote:
| I think marrying someone despite being attracted to the
| other sex without telling them and then having an affair
| with someone definitely makes you a bad person. But that's
| me.
| judahmeek wrote:
| I think judging a person's actions without considering
| their circumstances, which includes culture, is a mistake
| anon84873628 wrote:
| I can even tolerate / excuse / forgive up until that
| point, because it is indeed an unfair system. She took a
| gamble and got caught, at which point she ought to have
| made a deal with the guy. Not exploited the other unfair
| system of state violence against him.
| shswkna wrote:
| There is another, third perspective one can have on this.
|
| One can both find good reasons and explanations for his
| behaviour, and at the same time his choices can be judged
| harshly.
|
| I feel we have to heed the complexity of life and the
| situations people end in.
|
| Each of us has different tendencies. Some are by nature
| straight shooters. Others again, overthink a situation and
| lack the cognitive or emotional intelligence to always arrive
| at the perfect answer for a situation we are in.
|
| Both things can be true:
|
| Him making a choice that seems inevitable for the situation
| he is in.
|
| Also can be true, him wasting the life of another person (his
| wife) and him not seeing it this way. This is a bad deed from
| her perspective and can remain so.
|
| But consider, for example, that he probably resented her and
| she was proxy for society's pressure to confirm. Or, he
| thought that he gave her what she wanted (kids) and provided
| for them. In his eyes he paid his dues and got nothing out of
| it.
|
| He might have realised that if he doesn't get those small
| escapes (the affairs), he might not make it. You won't know
| the make up of his reward system and his emotional make up.
|
| When she wanted the divorce, his coping behaviours became
| habit. And he might not have been able to see a way out, or
| not have had the strength to change his reward seeking
| habits.
|
| We also don't exactly hear how he died in detail.
|
| Im am not excusing him, but I am trying to be devil's
| advocate to your absolutist stance, to provide a
| counterweight.
| itsalwaysgood wrote:
| The author refers to their dad as a coward.
|
| When the wife wanted to divorce, the dad recruited his
| mother-in-law to convince the wife to stay on the marriage.
|
| He was selfishly hiding information and making lifelong
| decisions for everyone because "he knew best."
|
| The dad died of a heart attack. His family was too ignorant
| to know a quick drive to the hospital was the best action.
| They didn't know because the 911 operator told them to wait
| for the ambulance (for legal reasons, they will not tell
| you to rush to the hospital. Imagine the liability of a
| wreck).
|
| There's no need to play devil's advocate. Private decisions
| were made, and we all have the privilege of reading about
| the outcome. It gives us much to consider, and not much
| else.
| ycombinete wrote:
| Have you read John Cheever's diaries? It's the same story.
|
| I can't really get into his fiction, but the diaries are
| astounding.
|
| He gave them to his son to read and publish posthumously.
| pavlov wrote:
| Thanks for the tip, I'll have to read that!
| anal_reactor wrote:
| My father had an affair, with a woman. It came to light but
| remained contained within the family. My parents are still
| married. The whole situation taught me that life is complicated
| and sometimes situations that seem morally obvious on the
| surface can actually be very difficult and have lots of nuance.
|
| When I was a teenager I dated a married man. On paper it's
| easier to explain "gay dude in a homophobic society" but in
| reality, he was an asshole and a coward. No empathy for him.
| caminante wrote:
| This is the sober take.
|
| People will try to explain away all kinds of behaviors that
| violate trust a la "they'll never find out..."
| lazide wrote:
| When a lot of dudes get murdered for it (historically, and
| currently in many places), there is also a pragmatic
| aspect.
|
| I agree on the immoral part, but I've seen so much immoral
| behavior over the years this seems (relatively) mellow.
|
| If you're in the medical field, you see some wild stuff.
| caminante wrote:
| I know what you're saying, but pragmatic doesn't apply
| here.
|
| We're talking about secretly dating a teenager while
| married with children. This is more than serving
| "societally taboo" urges on a transactional basis.
| lazide wrote:
| Hey, at least the teenager didn't get pregnant, _and_
| wasn't related? (Cringe, I know) And also seems pretty
| consensual, despite the age difference.
|
| Also, no one got murdered or blackmailed to cover it up
| apparently? Or even bullied into leaving town?
|
| Any small town has half a dozen or more of these types of
| stories.
| caminante wrote:
| They do.
|
| Coverups aren't exclusive to gays, and coverups are
| universally condemned because of the dishonesty.
| lazide wrote:
| That's what I'm saying yes? What is your point?
| caminante wrote:
| You were being snarky about blackmail/death threats.
|
| It's on you to elaborate your point.
| lazide wrote:
| Not at all. Mind actually saying something clearly?
|
| I've literally seen every one of the situations I
| described play out, without a gay person in sight.
|
| And notably, gay relationships of any gender don't have a
| habit of getting anyone pregnant.
|
| The described situation in the article is pretty tame by
| 'hidden/forbidden relationship' standards.
|
| But then, I used to be a mandatory reporter.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I wasn't in any way judging the father harshly when I read it.
| I also read between the lines that there was additionally
| "traditional Asian culture" as another factor.
|
| I only questioned why he would have brought kids into the
| "union", but I can easily imagine that it was his wife's
| desire.
|
| A very sad story in general. I lost my mom a few years ago and
| I suspect I'll go to my grave still very sad about the could-
| have-beens.
| mallets wrote:
| Having kids is half the reason (or more) for such marriages,
| nothing completes the nuclear family picture quite like it.
| And not like it's easy for gay couples in accepting
| environments to have kids either, surrogacy is banned in most
| countries ("liberal" ones too, US is kind of an exception
| here) and adoption is nigh impossible. Some countries like
| Italy go as far as selectively making both illegal, but only
| for gay couples.
|
| I would say many asian parents care very little about the
| partner, as long as they get their grandkids. A mix of that
| and "what would society think".
| WheatMillington wrote:
| Where did you hear that surrogacy is banned in most places
| outside the USA? That's just not true, and I suspect you've
| been indoctrinated with more US-exceptionalism. Surrogacy
| is not banned in the UK, Australia, NZ, much of Europe,
| Iran, much of Asia, etc.
| mschild wrote:
| Surrogacy is illegal in Spain, Germany, France, Italy,
| Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Finland, and Turkey. Also
| banned in China, some states in the US and Quebec. Thats
| a pretty hefty chunk of the worlds population.
|
| A lot of other countries also have a limbo status where
| there is either no clear law making it illegal but put so
| many hurdles up that its impractical.
|
| Some countries, like Italy, also make it illegal for
| Italian citizens to go abroad to a country where it is
| legal and then do it there.
| mallets wrote:
| It's "legal" at first glance but it's effectively banned
| in most cases. No monetary compensation, only direct
| relatives, only traditional pregnancy, etc.
|
| It's outright banned (commercial) in most of EU. In most
| countries it was left unregulated for a long time but
| most of them are choosing to ban all commercial forms of
| it. Besides US, most major countries have banned it.
|
| Now many people do ignore these laws and most governments
| do little to enforce them unless they make the news for
| some reason. Banning commercial forms of it just ensures
| abuse and issues go unreported. It's the paternalistic
| part of feminism that's been leading the charge for
| modern bans, with both liberal and conservative roots.
| swatcoder wrote:
| > only questioned why he would have brought kids into the
| "union"
|
| For a lot of people, building a family is a duty you embrace
| with your household partner. It's why you exist in the first
| place. It's why you get married and share a home with
| somebody at all.
|
| Perhaps, if you're lucky, your children are a fruit of love,
| or perhaps, if you're horny, they're a fruit of passion.
|
| But for a lot for such people, having and raising kids is the
| entirety of _why_ you get married, and is the rationale for
| you might not marry for love or passion in the first place.
|
| Marrying the person you're most attracted to or have the most
| fun with or whose pants you're most eager to get into is a
| very culturally specific practice and frankly, even where it
| is an _aspiration_ , its one that a lot of people just don't
| luck into. But they nonetheless feel an obligation, and even
| desire, to form and raise a family anyway, and so they march
| ahead and get it done, hopefully with somebody that they
| respect as a partner and who reciprocates the same.
| sallveburrpi wrote:
| I don't exist to produce children, tbh a very narrow view
| of what life can be.
| swatcoder wrote:
| That's great. Indeed, many of us don't see ourselves
| existing for that reason, especially among people who
| read and post on this site.
|
| But many many many in the world do see it that way, and
| more even in the past -- when the "dad" would have been
| making life their life choices -- than do right now.
| Either partially, but significantly, or wholly.
|
| My comment was helping its parent recognize the influence
| of that way of seeing the world, as it seemed to have
| escaped them.
| mettamage wrote:
| Yea, solid take.
|
| > Marrying the person you're most attracted to or have
| the most fun with or whose pants you're most eager to get
| into is a very culturally specific practice and frankly,
| even where it is an aspiration, its one that a lot of
| people just don't luck into.
|
| Man, I feel this. And it's also funny that you write it
| in such an objective way but it's true. It _is_ a very
| culturaly specific practice.
|
| I've lucked into it. It feels amazing. But I'm lucky that
| I was crazy enough to really teach myself how to get over
| rejection and just search for as long as needed to find
| someone who felt the same way about me as I felt about
| her. Amazing character building though, it was a true
| rite of passage for me that started around when I was 16
| and ended when I was 32 and married. Dating and being
| good at it, in order to be in an amazing relationship,
| has been an obsession of my life. This was in part
| because I sucked so hard at it as a young teenager. I
| think in earlier times I'd have settled for someone
| unappealing or stayed a virgin. Thank god, the internet
| was a thing when I was young.
| Forgeties79 wrote:
| >For a lot of people,
| schneems wrote:
| > I only questioned why he would have brought kids into the
| "union",
|
| They might be lead to believe "if only we got married ... if
| only we had kids ... that will 'fix' it." Even straight
| couples who aren't in love fall into this trap.
|
| I don't know how well real life imitates art, but a lot of
| films involving gay historical characters have a similar
| enough narrative I assume it has some grain of truth: The gay
| person would rather not be gay (it would be easier for them),
| and is told by society that it's a choice. Maybe they even
| have some small amount of feelings for the spouse or think
| they can "learn to love them." See Rustin 2023 as an example
| of the psychology in action.
|
| > I'll go to my grave still very sad about the could-have-
| beens.
|
| Sorry for that. Loss is one of the hardest, most confusing
| emotions. That lack of closure and the unknown is a truly
| awful feeling.
| locknitpicker wrote:
| > The gay person would rather not be gay (it would be
| easier for them), and is told by society that it's a
| choice.
|
| What's striking about those stories is that there were
| clearly quite a lot of cases where people objectively chose
| not to be gay, but they did it by repressing and masking it
| away by working hard on exemplary marriages that delivered
| many offspring to their name. Ultimately this means that
| yes indeed they could chose to not be gay, but they would
| have to sacrifice their whole sense of self just to comply
| with a societal norm.
| mallets wrote:
| Being gay isn't the choice here, choosing not to act on
| your attraction/desires is. Might feel nitpicky but a
| very important distinction.
| parpfish wrote:
| if the social pressure was strong enough to push them to get
| married, it would undoubtedly be strong enough to push them
| into making babies
| Spooky23 wrote:
| It is a sad story. But I will say that events in my life have
| really made me regret questioning the decisions of others.
|
| I did things "right" I met my wife right after college, and I
| loved her dearly. We lived a happy life and have a wonderful
| son. We lost her a couple of years ago to cancer, followed by
| my parents and my mother and father in law, all of whom i was
| incredibly close with.
|
| Yet life carries on. I come from a very traditional ethnic-
| focused catholic background. I'm not going to be following
| the standard script. I'm in my 40s, any partner will likely
| be divorced with their own child(ren). I'm not having more
| children. Will that partner be compared to my wife? Will I
| judged if she is too old/young/in a higher/lower status
| profession?
|
| Reality: everyone has been incredibly supportive of my family
| and I. But the anxiety is there.
|
| I would just say in looking at the lives of others, try to
| walk in their shoes. By all accounts the father in the story
| was not a perfect man. Few of us are. But consider that he
| was facing certain and complete rejection by his entire
| world, and he most likely made the choice that he felt was
| the least bad.
| lukan wrote:
| "and he most likely made the choice that he felt was the
| least bad."
|
| The least bad for _him_.
|
| "mom had started asking for divorces by the time i was in
| my teens, and dad was the one who always said no. he would
| complain to her mother, a traditionalist, to ensure that
| she would berate her daughter back into line. his family
| and his culture had no place for him, so he used her as a
| shield to make sure that he would be spared the scrutiny"
| treis wrote:
| I strongly disagree. The father passed on the same trauma
| he experienced to his own child. It makes it worse because
| he knows exactly how painful it is but did it anyways.
|
| I'm watching my ex do the same thing to our kid. I
| understand it on a mechanical level. But on an emotional
| level I will never understand how you can look into the
| eyes of your child and hurt them.
|
| The mechanics of it are what you see in the OP. I see it in
| my parents, my aunts/uncles, and my cousins. It's somewhere
| between denial and minimization. It's like a defense
| mechanism against the truth which is something like my
| father didn't love me enough to not severely damage me.
| "They did the best they could" is a common refrain.
| Ultimately that ends up being their justification for
| hurting their own kids.
|
| There is a balance to hit here. Yes, we are all human and
| you can't expect perfection. What you can expect and what
| everyone deserves from their loved ones is for them to at
| all points try to and not hurt you. There's forgiveness for
| coming up short if there's effort and steady improvement.
| WheatMillington wrote:
| I agree. I don't expect perfection from anyone, including
| myself. But what I expect from myself is to give my kids
| a better upbringing than I had - which was actually a
| mostly great upbringing, but we should always strive to
| be even better. I despise parents who hurt their kids
| through negligence and inaction, I find it inexcusable.
| arkitct wrote:
| pavlov: Thank you for sharing!
| armchairhacker wrote:
| I see his actions as immoral (not as much as most violence) but
| could seem justified to a person in his circumstances with
| reasonable moral judgement.
|
| He grew up in a social environment where coming out as gay
| would make everyone around him sad and angry/ashamed at him.
| But he was gay, intrinsically. Eventually (possibly because of
| societal acceptance, possibly because he decided total
| suppression wasn't worth it), he secretly broke his traditional
| relatives and friends' trust by acting gay. Something most
| people today see as justified. But he also broke his lovers'
| trust by having multiple affairs, something most people today
| see as unjustified.
|
| A caveat is that he didn't even confide in his daughter, who is
| gay; he didn't file for or allow divorce, to make things easier
| for his wife; and perhaps he should've noticed that, in the
| changing times, being gay became acceptable but not cheating.
| Again, I don't think he was right, and I can imagine a
| different person in his position handling the moral disconnect
| better for his family, who I believe he still cared about. But
| my understanding is that being gay is really taboo in some
| cultures, and has been in many more even a couple decades ago,
| so I can understand him being really suspicious and assuming
| those taboos held more strongly for more people.
|
| In which case to him, doing anything gay was setting up
| emotional damage to many people, and every affair was just
| setting up damage to one more person.
| billy99k wrote:
| "Before you judge the man in this story too harshly"
|
| I will judge him harshly. Instead of getting a divorce, he
| emotionally abused his wide and child, which probably means
| therapy for the child for life. He's a selfish asshole, that
| doesn't think about anyone but himself.
|
| He also could have brought diseases back home to his wife (Just
| hearing the stories of his selfishness, he would have kept this
| hidden or not even gotten tested at all).
|
| "The alternative was to be a laughing stock and die alone in a
| hospital where nurses don't dare touch you."
|
| This is the worst case scenario. He could have gotten a
| divorce, and lived the life he wanted.
|
| This guy deserves zero sympathy.
| pavlov wrote:
| It's really easy to prescribe what other people should do
| when you don't have to walk a yard in their shoes.
| Drupon wrote:
| Most of are out here in our own shoes walking home
| faithfully to our own spouse. The man in the story
| neglected his own spouse and CHILD to go and spend time
| with another partner.
|
| I understand not being warm and loving toward a wife you
| were forced to marry, even if I also know it means you're
| punishing her on top of the fact that she's dealing with
| the same thing. To ask her own family to verbally abuse her
| into not divorcing you so that you have the LUXURY of
| staying closeted and hooking up with various partners
| during the height of the AIDS epidemic.
|
| But to treat your child as worth nothing to you like this
| man did is a _disgrace_. I 'm glad the author isn't taking
| it personally. Imagine growing up effectively without a
| father because another man has taken all of his affection
| away from you and your family.
| msteffen wrote:
| Not to mention the partner who he made _move to another
| country_ and then _still wouldn't tell anyone about_. The
| more I think about this post the more insanely controlling
| the guy seems!
| Drupon wrote:
| And he cheated on that partner so much that said partner is
| now despondent and wants nothing to do with any memories of
| him ever again.
| dpark wrote:
| Where in that story did he emotionally abuse anyone? He was
| distant and miserable but that's not abusive (except to
| himself).
| anon84873628 wrote:
| Um, you don't see the problem with that when it's your
| father / husband?
| dpark wrote:
| "Problem" is not the same thing as "abuse".
| tempestn wrote:
| Coercing someone to remain in a loveless marriage while
| you abandon and repeatedly cheat on them sure is though.
| serf wrote:
| so by this rational a person can be abused without even
| being aware of it and seeing no comparable ill effect?
|
| Where is the line drawn? Am I abusing my spouse when I
| decide that we're a bit too over-stretched financially
| and that we're going to need to skip the surprise Disney
| World trip that I had planned but hadn't yet told them
| about?
|
| What about if I think they just didn't try their hardest
| during the family softball competition? Are they abusing
| me?
| tempestn wrote:
| His wife repeatedly requested a divorce and he basically
| forced her to remain in the loveless marriage. Your
| strawmen really aren't relevant.
| Drupon wrote:
| >because you see, my dad was a coward. mom had started
| asking for divorces by the time i was in my teens, and
| dad was the one who always said no. he would complain to
| her mother, a traditionalist, to ensure that she would
| berate her daughter back into line. his family and his
| culture had no place for him, so he used her as a shield
| to make sure that he would be spared the scrutiny.
|
| What exactly do you call that? NoT ThE SAmE ThInG As
| "AbuSE"?
| dpark wrote:
| No. Being selfish is not the same thing as abuse.
|
| People do selfish stuff all the time. It's not abuse even
| if it's shitty behavior. Abuse means more than that.
| Drupon wrote:
| Calling up your wife's parents and telling them to scold
| her for wanting to divorce you IS ABUSE.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I rarely judge people in these situations (sexuality or
| whatever the reason, there's a million different way to get
| stuck in a false life due to social pressure, "weakness"
| [aren't we all at times?]...)
|
| I'm just floored by the misery most people go through, the
| misery we inflict on each others... it's not easy to bold, to
| be free, to be you.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| At 57, that means he entered university during the early to mid
| 1980s.
|
| That was peak AIDS phobia (for good reason), and the anti-gay
| rhetoric was also at its peak.
|
| There was a lot more to lose coming out during those days,
| beyond just marriage and family cold-shoulders.
|
| By good reason, I mean people were panicked because people
| didn't know which activities could spread the virus. Anyone
| else remember toilet seat fears?
| snapplebobapple wrote:
| Once i realized he was gay and chinese it just read how i
| expected it would go for most in that situation and time
| period. I am not gay, traditional, chinese or quite as old
| (probably i am 15 years younger than the gay dad) but i hope i
| would pull it off as well as he appears to in that situation.
| He raised only minorly messed up kids, managed to find a little
| of what his heart felt was love. Biggest fail was not finding a
| lesbian in the same situation to pull this off together and
| avoid the lieing and resentment and pain caused to the other
| partner from a marriage only known to be a sham to one party.
| ericmcer wrote:
| You can extrapolate this on to anyones life, not just someone
| with such a huge and dramatic secret they were hiding for the
| stability of their family life.
|
| If your parents get old/sick or you have kids or a bad
| relationship or you get stuck in a job or any other myriad life
| events occur, the weight of your own days can suddenly drain so
| much time and energy that years fly by. Suddenly you wake up in
| an aging body and your ideal life seems far away. As I get
| older I kind of understand the people who just flee their
| lives. Being saddled with responsibilities you never wanted you
| are forced into choosing to either strangle your own desires or
| be perceived as a terrible person for not fulfilling your
| societal obligations.
| ta9000 wrote:
| And this is why society is going to shit. "Live free, no
| regrets" has to be one of the most narcissistic memes I've
| ever heard of. If a person commits to a partner and/or a
| family, they shouldn't just hit the reset button because
| they're bored or upset with how life turned out. Talk to your
| partner. Tell them the truth. It's wild that this has to even
| be said. Obvious caveats for abuse or depression, but come
| on. Have some grit.
| senordevnyc wrote:
| No one advocated for anything you're railing against.
| ta9000 wrote:
| > Suddenly you wake up in an aging body and your ideal
| life seems far away. As I get older I kind of understand
| the people who just flee their lives. Being saddled with
| responsibilities you never wanted you are forced into
| choosing to either strangle your own desires or be
| perceived as a terrible person for not fulfilling your
| societal obligations.
| gwd wrote:
| There's judging people, and there's judging actions.
|
| - Getting married under societal pressure even when you're
| pretty sure you're gay: I'm willing to cut him some slack on
| this.
|
| - Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at
| risk of disease, but OK, you've been placed in a messed up,
| lose-lose situation.
|
| - Telling a lover you want to be exclusive, and getting him to
| move to a completely new country, stringing him along with the
| idea that someday you'll leave your wife and live with him,
| when in fact you intend neither to leave your wife nor to be
| exclusive: Uuh, OK, that's actually pretty bad.
|
| - You know your wife wants to start a new life with someone
| else. But that would make it harder to hide your current life.
| So you use the societal pressure that forced you into your
| situation to keep her from leaving, stealing decades of _her_
| life that she could have potentially had with someone who would
| have made her happier: There is simply no excuse for this.
| gritten wrote:
| >Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife
| at risk of disease, but OK
|
| In what world is this ever "OK"?
| anovikov wrote:
| Homophobia sucks massive dick. It doesn't take being gay to
| despise people who's collective "wisdom" subjects millions to
| lifelong suffering like that.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| It's amazing to me all of the way homophobia also victimizes
| straight men and women and we don't even realize the collateral
| damage we take from it.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Straight women brought this on themselves. Straight, especially
| supposedly egalitarian or leftist straight women hate bisexual
| men.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| I'm not really sure straight women are entirely to blame for
| homophobia but interesting take.
| lordnacho wrote:
| So, what should you do if you know someone trapped in this kind
| of situation?
|
| I currently know someone like this. He's not homosexual, so it's
| not quite the same issue.
|
| But he's gotten himself trapped in a relationship, and worst of
| all, cannot admit it to his friends. The only reason I know is
| that the one friend he did tell, has told the rest of his
| friends. We've known each other since childhood, yet he doesn't
| ask me for help. Which is up to him, of course, but he also
| doesn't know that I know that he is keeping a remarkably straight
| face about his situation. In a way it would be easier if I hadn't
| been told.
|
| So now, I have to pretend like I think he's just a single man
| about town. He just shows up to everything when I'm around, and
| chats to me like he always has throughout the years. We'll meet
| another old friend, yet his life update is that he's just like
| any other bachelor-for-life, just enjoying his video games and
| freedom, while the rest of us are having kids and worrying about
| school bills.
|
| It's very odd. What would HN do?
| nemomarx wrote:
| How is he trapped, and could you expand a little on the
| situation? I'm not sure I understand the social expectation at
| play for it.
|
| Does he actually have kids in his relationship that he doesn't
| want to talk about or admit to in public? Is his partner being
| neglected, or children?
| lordnacho wrote:
| It's a "partner" who uses him for his wealth. No kids, and
| there won't be any, because I know how those are made and you
| have to do certain things that are not being done.
|
| When you talk to the guy, everything is great. Not even a
| sign that he has gotten hitched to this lady, or is dating,
| or that anything has happened at all.
|
| Yeah it's weird. I was incredulous when I was told.
| fragmede wrote:
| So your friend has a sugar baby and you feel awkward about
| it?
| mallets wrote:
| Grace and Frankie (tv show) deals with some of this, don't think
| I'm the target audience but I enjoyed it as 20-30 year old.
| randallsquared wrote:
| I'm saddened by the followup, when she asserts that the fantasy
| of seeing her dad happy, settled, and domestic was a "stupidly
| heteronormative fantasy".
| zduoduo wrote:
| Such a good article!
| stOneskull wrote:
| i'm very impressed with her writing. she's got the skill!
| manthangupta109 wrote:
| emotional
| pwthornton wrote:
| Jesus Christ capitalize the start of sentences. Tech bros, stop
| butchering language to feel cool.
| tedk-42 wrote:
| 10 years ago people like you were called 'grammar nazis' - a
| term clearly out of fashion but the sentiment remains.
|
| An excellent article, to be nit-picked for a dumb reason as
| this
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Very well written. Many here in the comments seeking to find
| sense in this matter or pass judgment; a wise person would simply
| nod in acknowledgement, understanding that things simply are the
| way they are.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| I don't feel like this entry is harsh on authors father. I think
| it is nuanced and forgiving. It seems most commenters disagree
| with me on that.
|
| Regardless, it is a well written article with an emotionally
| strong impact. Thank you for sharing.
| poisonborz wrote:
| Religion and tradition, the two things that elevated humanity,
| yet also been the source of much of its suffering.
| krupan wrote:
| There is no life without pain and suffering. It's as much a law
| of nature as gravity. Life needs something to push against, to
| struggle to overcome. Without that there simply is no life. If
| life doesn't struggle and suffer against things it never even
| starts. Once started, if life stops struggling and suffering,
| it quickly dies.
|
| Religion and tradition have elevated humanity and it's good to
| acknowledge that. They never could have eliminated suffering,
| only changed the sources and types of suffering. It is helpful
| for many of us to have things like religion and traditions to
| give the suffering more meaning, sense, and purpose.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Those are both embodied expectations of idealizations.
|
| When people like the father never find the courage to speak,
| they will be harmed/destroyed/etc. in exactly the way those
| traditions would warn against.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| [flagged]
| gk1 wrote:
| This comment is sickening. If this is coming from a personal
| hardship, I hope you find peace soon.
| GaryBluto wrote:
| I don't see what's so sickening. He made his bed, now he
| needs to lie in it.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Why? How is it helpful to him, to his wife, or their son to
| live this lie of unhappiness. The lie will be more damaging
| than facing the truth.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| It's not sickening at all. Think about this: You're biased
| like many people reading it.
|
| It's easy to get emotionally strung along by his first person
| narrative but you need to think bigger. You need to construct
| avatars for the wife and for the child and visualize the
| emotional damage done to them. What he did isn't trivial. He
| lied and manipulated his wife and had a child with her. That
| is a fucking crime. Constructing a total lie and manipulating
| his partner to sacrifice everything to live that lie with him
| and then to bring a child into that lie and force him to grow
| up with it.
|
| I think people like you are blind. It's one thing to disagree
| with me but to call what I said sickening? You enjoy upending
| lives and manipulating people? Maybe you're sick?
|
| No that's not true at all. I'm not going to fall for your
| trope of just calling people sick without understanding their
| perspective. You're not sick. Just stupid. you are biased and
| you aren't thinking from the perspective of the lives he has
| ruined all in the name of emotional cowardice of admitting
| who he is. I get how hard it is, but it doesn't justify what
| he did.
| _dain_ wrote:
| this is quite unhinged. and unfair -- the wife must endure a
| loveless marriage, because the husband cheated?
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| Eh? No. The wife is living in an illusion constructed as a
| manipulation by the husband. Either the husband maintains the
| illusion till death and no one is hurt or the husband
| destroys it and allows himself to be happy at the cost of the
| happiness of others that he chose to manipulate.
|
| He made the bed. Fucking sleep in it.
| apaosjsja wrote:
| I share this sentiment. Most in the west (especially on HN)
| have been conditioned to believe mercy must always be granted
| and justice is evil. You can't have one without the other or
| society falls apart.
|
| As a child of a mother who cheated and ruined our family, I
| complete agree with you. This story filled me with disgust, and
| I want to live in a culture where people like this feel guilt
| at what they did. The sibling response here is happy to tut-tut
| you with the weight of progressive cultural authority behind
| them, as only a short sighted ideologue could. Lying of this
| level is bad for the family and bad for society. Protecting it
| is akin to protesting the removal of a cancerous tumor.
| array_key_first wrote:
| Wishing for liars to live terrible lives does not help your
| life. At all. It makes it worse.
|
| This comment and mindset is self-destructive. Yes, bad things
| happen - but nothing is ruined. There is no such thing as
| ruining, only changing. The relationship changes, the people
| change, and your understanding changes.
|
| Desperately vying for any sense of sameness, and forcing
| yourself to continue a life that is not true, doesn't serve
| you or anyone.
|
| Things can be good. You can get divorced and that can be a
| better outcome. Things can change.
| tempestn wrote:
| And even if you don't consider the well-being of the father
| at all, surely the best thing for his wife and child isn't
| for him to continue the charade. I certainly wouldn't want
| that, in their place.
| bad_haircut72 wrote:
| I agree with the sentiment but staying quiet is not right
| because it takes away the rest of the wifes life. He should
| have the courage to tell her so she at least has a choice of
| what to do.
| Fritatta wrote:
| You talk like a coming-out divorce 'upends' a family in some
| unprecedented way. People get divorced all the time. Families
| reconfigure, children adapt, adults survive. Get a grip.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| No. Divorce ruins the lives of the kids. Look at the
| statistics. The outcome and financial damage and emotional
| damage is horrid.
|
| The problem is more that it's normalized. I think the
| normalization is wrong. Similar to how North Korea normalized
| poverty. Marriage should be taken seriously and divorce is
| extremely serious. The fact that you think of it as nothing
| is whats out of touch.
| miltonlost wrote:
| Please go to therapy.
| ninetyninenine wrote:
| This is insulting. I simply have a different opinion than
| you.
|
| I think if you have the ability to tell someone in public to
| go to therapy without realizing how rude and insulting and
| uncivil it is, you're the one that needs therapy. Wake up.
| tomhow wrote:
| This is not an acceptable comment on HN. It's not OK to scold
| or harangue people like this here. The guidelines foremost ask
| us to "Be kind" in comments, and that isn't negated just
| because you disapprove of what the parent commenter has done.
| Further, we've had to ask you repeatedly to observe the
| guidelines and refrain from trolling. We have to ban accounts
| that continue to act this way. Please stop this if you want to
| keep participating here. A reminder of the guidelines:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46022847 and marked it off
| topic.
| shark1 wrote:
| The deliberate choice of committing such a basic mistake of
| lower-casing the beginning of all sentences is an insult. I am
| afraid of reading it, becoming desensitized, and starting to do
| the same.
| gk1 wrote:
| It's not a mistake, it's a choice. Quite a common one among
| younger people who grew up using Slack at work and iMessage
| everywhere else.
| ReluctantLaser wrote:
| Why is that important to you?
|
| The way you write about it feels like you're going to be
| infected by it, altered by it, if you read it fully. Seems like
| an odd reaction.
| ahf8Aithaex7Nai wrote:
| Capital letters come from Roman script. Lowercase letters come
| from a medieval administrative script (Carolingian minuscule).
| So you could say that we are mixing two completely different
| scripts. This becomes very clear when you look at a text
| written entirely in lowercase letters: the typeface is so
| uniform that I, at least, find it very pleasant to look at.
| Unfortunately, this is not the norm. Instead, I am condemned to
| live in a world where I have to look at writing consisting of
| two obviously thrown-together scripts day in and day out.
| Schopenhauer was right: the world is a vale of tears!
| KronisLV wrote:
| I read the linked post as well: https://jenn.site/my-dad-could-
| still-be-alive-but-hes-not/
|
| > i learn the story afterwards. dad went upstairs for a lie-down
| after dinner, but was awoken by severe chest pain. he vomits,
| which is a thing he never does, and asks mom to call 911
| immediately. she does and provides all the symptoms, the
| dispatcher tells her that they've sent for an ambulance, and they
| should get ready to go.
|
| > so they get ready, and then they wait. they wait for 15 long
| minutes, my dad in an extreme amount of pain, and nothing
| happens.
|
| > mom calls 911 again and asks if they have an ETA. the
| dispatcher responds that don't have visibility on that. she asks
| if she should just drive my dad to the hospital and is advised
| that the best thing to do is to keep waiting.
|
| > so they wait another 15 long minutes, and still no one shows
| up. the house is in a car-oriented suburb, 5 minutes away from a
| major highway, a ten minute drive from the hospital.
|
| > mom decides that they should not keep waiting. she and my
| brother help dad into the car, and they drive him to the
| hospital.
|
| > they arrive at the emergency room entrance. dad gets out of the
| car, takes two steps, lurches forwards, and dies on the front
| steps of the hospital.
|
| What the fuck, that's horrible.
|
| My dad's house is in a rural area of the country. He sadly passed
| away a week ago, I found him in his bed while coming to visit, he
| didn't pick up the phone that day, despite us having talked just
| the day before. When I found him, I called the emergency number
| and they still sent an ambulance, it was at the house in like
| 15-20 minutes, they confirmed the situation and did some
| paperwork and helped me with the next steps.
|
| I can't imagine how horrible the circumstances in the article
| must feel and I'm not even sure what "justice" would look in a
| case like that, how the fuck can an emergency line dispatcher not
| have "visibility" on an emergency call, that's their one fucking
| job!
| treis wrote:
| This is something I've noticed with EMTs & Ambulances. They
| don't actually move all that fast and I'm sure they have their
| reasons. But it's always seemed like driving to the hospital
| would be better and I wonder how much truth there is to that.
| gumboshoes wrote:
| Oh, my heart. This is difficult and lovely and so complex. I want
| to wrap them all up in my own love.
| krupan wrote:
| Writing, journaling, is such a good way to process thoughts and
| emotions and this is a great example. I'm grateful for this
| person sharing her very personal journal entries with us even
| though it is not required at all. It sets a great example of what
| to write about and how. It also reveals that people and the lives
| they live are incredibly complicated and messy. The longer I live
| and the more people I get to know the more I believe that nobody
| is as simple and "good" as they seem on the surface. If your life
| has been simple and relatively pain free up to this point, just
| wait, and try not to judge others in situations more difficult
| and complicated than yours too harshly. There is much you do not
| yet know.
| ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 wrote:
| for all the lowercase complainers:
| document.querySelectorAll("p").forEach(p => p.textContent =
| p.textContent.replace(/(^\w)|([.?!]\s*\w)|( i'? )/g, m =>
| m.toUpperCase()));
| micku7zu wrote:
| Or using CSS p:first-letter{ text-transform: capitalize;}:
| document.styleSheets[0].insertRule("p:first-letter{ text-
| transform:
| capitalize;}",document.styleSheets[0].cssRules.length);
| kwar13 wrote:
| One of my best friends took his own life growing up in Iran. I
| will never forgive religion for what it made other people do to
| him.
| gurumeditations wrote:
| Straight people will never understand the crushing suffocating
| binding evil of straight supremacy. They call a gay man a coward
| when they and their kind are murderers of ours.
| donatj wrote:
| There is also a part two apparently for anyone curious:
|
| https://www.jenn.site/my-dead-deadbeat-gay-dad/
| silexia wrote:
| AI generated?
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| I love the occasionally very surprising submission on here.
| Sometimes, something with nothing to do with technology touches
| this group of jaded techies enough to bring it to the front page.
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| the guy was a shitbag and he ruined his wife's life and was
| very hard for his children all because he was weak
| bdangubic wrote:
| yup, but interestingly enough, I was imagining that if this
| was turned into a movie the audience would symphatize with
| him...
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