[HN Gopher] The realities of being a pop star
___________________________________________________________________
The realities of being a pop star
Author : lovestory
Score : 309 points
Date : 2025-11-22 17:47 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (itscharlibb.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (itscharlibb.substack.com)
| carabiner wrote:
| Fascinating. Also impressive rawness, and it doesn't even seem
| like she passed it thru Chatgpt. It's insane that my first
| inclination is to detect those telltale signs in a blog post, and
| here I found none.
| varjag wrote:
| Yeah there's a 'delve' there but it almost feels it was put in
| as a taunt.
| jspash wrote:
| I never quite understood this "tell". I use the word all the
| time. As do a lot of the people I have know. Written and
| spoken.
|
| Is this maybe an American thing? Ie it's just not used much
| there?
| levocardia wrote:
| "Delve" was one of the words whose usage spiked most
| dramatically after the launch of ChatGPT, relative to its
| usage pre-ChatGPT.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I used to wear a mask when I was sick but still had to be
| around people. It was just normal life. Then after COVID it
| became a political statement. Now if I did that people
| would assume I'm trying to say something.
|
| I've always liked the American flag. I have a little pin on
| my jacket. People assume something by its presence.
|
| That's life. Delve is now an LLMism.
| nemothekid wrote:
| Charli is a half-british half-Indian. It could be legitimate
| derangedHorse wrote:
| Delve was a word I used before generative AI and it's a word
| I'll continue using into the future. I will not let people's
| perceived use of AI stop me from writing what I want to
| write.
| plasticeagle wrote:
| I feel absolutely confident that Charlie XCX would never use
| generative AI in any form. And this sentence is lovely;
|
| "...let some random person you've just met in the bathroom try
| on the necklace around your neck that is equivalent to the
| heart of the ocean"
|
| Like you I always look for signs of AI in writing I see online,
| and it's incredibly disappointing how often it's there. There's
| no personality, no charm, nothing unique - just the same
| flawless grammar and overuse of cliche. This piece is filled
| with the quality of humanity that we once took for granted.
| This is what we are losing.
| binary132 wrote:
| not all of us, just most of us, apparently
| gdulli wrote:
| She may be of the final generation of real creatives who aren't
| at a disadvantage relative to those who take the path of least
| resistance and put out slop. The current/next generation of the
| audience may look at manually created art as a curiosity, the
| way most of us think about listening to vinyl.
| bigiain wrote:
| I'm less sure and perhaps more optimistic.
|
| Spottily has clearly identified a paying market for
| "incidental" music, something that people will play just to
| fill in as background noise while not caring about it. But it
| relies on a huge number of people who're prepared to pay a
| vanishingly small amount for it, or even to put up with ads
| to have it play for free.
|
| But that's not "the audience" that all "creatives" are
| seeking or writing for. At least some of them are writing for
| the sort of person who actively seeks out and values
| "manually created art". People like me. People who'll not
| only go and listen to an artist's back catalog after enjoying
| hearing a previously unknown artist, and who'll buy the music
| that they love (including buying the vinyl even though they
| have access via streaming and paid downloads as well). People
| who'll keep an eye open for tours, and who'll buy concert
| tickets and encourage friends to do so as well.
|
| That will probably never generate Taylor Swift or Rhiannon
| style careers or income, but I think "1000 true fans" is a
| valid today as it was almost 20 years ago when it was
| written:
|
| https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/
|
| Anybody "putting out slop" using GenAI in their art is
| fooling themselves if they think it's ever going to be
| possible to become truly rich and famous that way. If there's
| money to be made from AI slop music, it'll be raked in by
| streaming services and AI companies who can produce a million
| tracks a day and A/B test then on streaming services with a
| billion listeners. And _maybe_ there'll be a very few
| specialist AI music production companies, someone with a
| finely tuned AI and extremely skilled prompters - and with
| enough skill and talent to recognise when the AI output is
| going to be popular enough to be worth releasing. Someone
| like Stock Aitken Waterman used to be back in the 80s. But
| those production companies are directly in the targets of
| enshittification by the AI companies (the same as every
| company in any industry that becomes dependent on someone
| else's GenAI).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Aitken_Waterman
| stavros wrote:
| Nobody who likes writing would use ChatGPT to write. First of
| all, it takes the fun out of it, and second of all, its writing
| is clinical and corporate. I'm writing to express myself, how
| would I accomplish that through someone else?
|
| I don't think trying to detect ChatGPT is a good use of time.
| Either the writing is good, or it's not.
| carabiner wrote:
| It doesn't take any more time than reading it. Chatgpt
| writing is dogshit and if I see signs then I know probably
| the whole work is polluted.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| > and it doesn't even seem like she passed it thru Chatgpt
|
| Oh my god, can we stop with the obsession of whether something
| has been chatgpt-ified? I like to know when things are true, or
| when they are good. I couldn't care less if they are chatgpt-y.
| jdlshore wrote:
| I think people disliked being fooled. Something seems good
| and true, and then you realize it was ChatGPT, and you
| realize it's all fake. The connection you were forming with
| the author is gone (because they phoned it in) and the sense
| of truth is gone (because who knows what was hallucinated).
|
| People like authenticity. ChatGPT ain't it.
| foxglacier wrote:
| Another thing that isn't authentic is anything said in
| public by a celebrity - or worse - the feelings they show
| in their work. Yet people still lap it up. I think people
| enjoy being fooled into believing something is authentic in
| some cases but not others. Not sure what distinguishes them
| though.
| cypherpunks01 wrote:
| > "A couple of weeks ago Yung Lean came for dinner at my house ..
| He is probably one of the wisest people I know."
|
| Two sentences I would've not predicted in close proximity to one
| another! Hah, love it. Guess he's been through a lot over the
| years.
| polalavik wrote:
| yung leans interview on nyt popcast is good
| https://youtu.be/p1FF3r6raSc?si=Yq4kxIuQCUkW8IBr also his doc
| on Noisey years back was really good
| https://youtu.be/6wgFliyJ4Bk?si=B1DdlOQZH9NBsve1
| bahmboo wrote:
| It is a great interview, thanks. Never heard of him, he's a
| smart young person. Goes hand in hand with Charlie's post.
| Hey it's Saturday night we can talk about culture stuff,
| right? Edit to add: young prodigies in artistic pursuits have
| similar choices as young tech prodigies.
| BriggyDwiggs42 wrote:
| >young prodigies in artistic pursuits have similar choices
| as young tech prodigies.
|
| How so?
| bahmboo wrote:
| Values - I'm not judging.
|
| Do you want to be the best rapper in Sweden? Do you want
| to be the best engineer at EA? 2 million a year to work
| at Palantir? Sign with a label and get 2 million a year
| to live in LA and have your music in Pepsi ads? Start an
| open source greenfield passion project that has only your
| vision as the runway? Work your own musical genre even if
| your audience isn't there yet?
|
| As a talented young person (or at least you believe in
| yourself!) it's early in your life/career where you can
| sculpt and morph yourself while you are still formable.
| decasia wrote:
| I thought this was a really good piece of writing. It's rare to
| do something like this because the job discourages it by putting
| PR filters on everything you say.
|
| My uncle was a pretty big pop star in the 1960s. His group at one
| point had a big fanzine, they were household names across the
| country, over time they had stalkers and weird fans and all that,
| made movies and albums, had big parties and knew other famous
| people, pretty much all those things that the OP writes about
| (circa 50 years later, some of it has changed but not that much).
|
| He could be charismatic and surprisingly eloquent and I could
| picture him writing a piece like this, if the mood had struck.
|
| He also lost pretty much all the money through mismanagement
| (several times over), eventually moved out of LA, had a
| tumultuous family life with numerous spouses and wasn't around
| much for his kids, and after his 40s was trapped in a sad cycle
| of reunion tours because the band still needed the money. The
| tours still had some level of excitement and crowd enthusiasm,
| even pretty late in life and I guess he always loved the stage,
| the performing, all that. But in the end, I kinda felt it seemed
| like a lonely existence. Hard to form really deep connections
| when you're always traveling and often away in your head.
| ilamont wrote:
| > after his 40s was trapped in a sad cycle of reunion tours
| because the band still needed the money.
|
| Celebrity memoirs are often written for the same reasons, or to
| promote other ventures. For instance Peter Wolf seemingly
| reluctantly shared vignettes about Dylan, The Stones, Faye
| Dunaway, and rock 'n' roll life in the 1970s to promote his
| newer stuff:
|
| "I was putting out solo CDs. Not to sound self-congratulatory,
| but I thought each one got better and better-- but they weren't
| finding an audience. I thought a book might encourage people to
| check out the other stuff. So basically, the intent of the book
| was to find a wider audience."
|
| https://www.boston.com/culture/books/2025/03/10/peter-wolf-m...
| Insanity wrote:
| It was interesting and a fun read, but not a "good piece of
| writing" in my opinion. Apart from some spelling mistakes, the
| sentences droned on and it read more like a semi-coherent rant
| than a thoughtful piece on "being a pop star".
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| The sentences do drone on, but they're fully coherent; this
| is above-average writing. It wouldn't likely meet publishing
| standards, but it's a lot better than you'd expect a
| randomly-chosen person to produce.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I'm sure an editor would go through and suggest tightening
| up some points, but I agree it's good enough as a first
| draft.
|
| The problem is there are too types of writers who don't get
| the help of an editor, those who are too big and famous to
| accept one and those too poor to afford one.
|
| I sort of feel the people who are saying it's bad aren't
| very able to separate their own preferences from
| determining quality
|
| https://medium.com/luminasticity/to-speak-meaningfully-
| about...
| IceDane wrote:
| As interesting as I find it, cannot agree more. It's very
| childish writing - feels a lot like it was written by a
| teenager. It sort of reminds me of my young 8 year old niece
| telling me a story she finds so exciting she barely comes up
| for air.
| derangedHorse wrote:
| It read like something the young adult women I know would
| write. It's surprisingly normal.
| tomsmeding wrote:
| It is thoughtful, that's not the problem. It's just not
| written in the standard language "written English", but
| instead in "spoken English" with some attempts towards the
| former ("My final thought on ...") that sound like someone
| trying formal writing for the first time.
| nunez wrote:
| I thought it was excellent for something that appears mostly
| off the cuff. This is what lots of good writing looks like
| before the editors get to it, btw
| TheTon wrote:
| I admit I started reading with some skepticism. It didn't
| read like PR, so I assumed I was reading fanfic. By the
| midpoint, she managed to convince me otherwise.
|
| I think the author is walking a tightrope between convincing
| the reader that she wrote this herself and that there's more
| depth to her than what we see on stage or in pop media.
| Writing this blog is definitely a tougher assignment than
| doing podcast interviews or behind the scenes videos.
|
| You are right, of course, a good editor could make this
| better, but I think she's deliberately avoiding that here. A
| pop star is unwise to fire a good producer without a better
| replacement, but sometimes they have to bring out the piano
| and do an acoustic performance live.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I was interested by the part in the middle talking about
| society not tolerating women stepping too far out of
| traditional roles.
|
| I'm a 50-ish years old American man, and I just don't notice
| anything like that in my own attitudes or of those around me.
|
| I wonder if one or both of us have biased vision, or
| alternatively maybe we just live in different societies.
| derektank wrote:
| I certainly believe that if you want to be a successful
| musician, not even a pop star necessarily just one that's
| able to draw crowds large enough to sustain you
| financially, you probably are bound by certain norms and
| expectations. Not necessarily because audiences _hate_
| women (or men for that matter) that break the mold, but
| they 're not as easy to digest. It adds friction. And when
| there are thousands of other artists out there to listen
| to, that friction can be the difference between success and
| failure.
|
| I agree with you though, if you're willing to live a small
| life where you only need the love and respect of a small
| handful of people, you can do almost anything and very few
| people will genuinely hate you.
| nunez wrote:
| That's the fate of many acts from that period. So so so many
| artists who were stratospherically popular but are still
| touring for cash playing to nobody younger than them. It's sad.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This is a staple of French TV music prime time shows. You get
| the stars of the 80s and 90s and it is often simply sad to
| watch.
| derangedHorse wrote:
| "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at
| all"
|
| Is it sadder than any other individual who has to work into
| retirement age? Or is the fall itself what you find sad? I
| can imagine some artists might be happier in this latter
| stage of their lives where they can focus on their real fans
| and better fostering other personal relationships in their
| lives.
| sandblast wrote:
| Sorry, I'm curious: why it "was", not "is", a really good piece
| of writing?
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Presumably the tense refers to the time of the reading, not
| the time of the article's existence.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| This was slightly better than reading something generated by an
| AI but I have a similar sense that I am dumber for having read
| two paragraphs of it.
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| I couldn't think of anything worse than to be known world wide.
|
| You couldn't go out in public without being hounded or swamped by
| people. The parasocial relationships people form with you can put
| your life in danger.
|
| Even worse is being a politician - particularly at a global
| leader level. Surely there has been an average Joe who has
| shithoused their way into being a leader of a significant
| country. Once you do that, with politics being as toxic as it is,
| for the rest of your days you can be a marked person.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| What does shithoused mean in this context? All the meanings I
| know for it don't fit, not even metaphorically...
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| Sorry for the bogan nomenclature.
|
| I mean "fell upwards". Gave it a shot for shits and giggles
| and made it.
| windowshopping wrote:
| I didn't know what bogan meant either so I looked it up and
| I have to infer we are speaking with an Australian or New
| Zealander, hence the small vocabulary differential in our
| English.
| bombcar wrote:
| Aussies speak something that sounds vaguely like English
| but it ain't.
| bigiain wrote:
| You know how it's said that eskimos have 50 words for
| "snow"?
|
| Aussies have 50 meanings for the word "cunt". It can
| simultaneously be both the worst and the best thing you
| can call someone. And aussies know exactly which meaning
| is intended from context.
| decimalenough wrote:
| It's easier than that, the meaning is defined by the
| previous word. Although you do have to be an Aussie to
| know that being called a "sick cunt" is high praise,
| while being a "dog cunt" is a mortal insult.
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| It also depends on how long you stretch the word cunt.
| Shorter cunt usually infers insult, longer cunts belie
| respect, and if it goes for more than a second, you're
| probably watching Aussie rules footie or the cricket and
| something bad/good happened, depending on whether the
| pitch goes up or down in the last milliseconds.
| fyltr wrote:
| For the record, eskimo is a derrogatory term meaning "raw
| meat eater". The term Inuit is nowadays preferred.
| bigiain wrote:
| Thank you. I did not know that. I shall strive to update
| my use of wording there.
| WJW wrote:
| Tim Ferris once made the point that at an incidence rate of
| psychotic episodes (~26 per 100.000 people) compared to
| expected influencer reach (several million if you're doing
| well), statistically you are expected to have a few dozen
| severely mentally ill people in your audience. Several of those
| may project you to be the cause of all their problems, even if
| you are literally the most wholesome person in the world just
| because they are not experiencing reality in a sensible way at
| the moment.
|
| Link: https://tim.blog/2020/02/02/reasons-to-not-become-famous/
| wewewedxfgdf wrote:
| I'd hate to be a pop star.
|
| The more anonymity the better.
| jppope wrote:
| Courtney Love wrote a fabulous article explaining the realities
| of a million-dollar album (2000 -
| https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/) and it explains so much
| of whats actually going on that the public doesn't fully
| comprehend. Its a great read if you've never read it.
|
| The realities are similar to what we are reading in this article.
| Most of what gets talked about is gross numbers not net. Most of
| the benefits of the job, are in the journey not the destination -
| if you're even into that stuff... i.e. having your music impact
| lives.
|
| I wish sooooo much that people could read these things so when I
| go to a dinner party or random event, some GenPop person knew
| that JK Rowling makes billions of dollars but your average
| published writer loses money publishing a book. Your average NBA,
| NFL, MLB, NHL athletes are broke 5 years after they are out of
| the league. Fame, is mostly a curse.
|
| Good on charli xcx for writing this and for writing period.
| SL61 wrote:
| It's interesting to observe that fame (and the money that
| usually comes with it) seems to follow something like a log
| scale. People usually don't become gradually more famous in a
| linear way. They're more likely to spend a few years with 50k
| listeners and then get a big hit and get 1 million listeners
| overnight, then the next big jump is 20 million, and so on.
|
| It's possible to be semi-famous and still able to go to the
| grocery store and pump your own gas without getting recognized.
| The local sports radio guys don't need an entourage, even if
| they _do_ get recognized. But as a rising artist, you hit a
| point where you can no longer go out in public at all. It 's
| really shocking when it happens because it's so abrupt. My
| dad's famous friend was a regular at a local restaurant and
| wasn't bothered for a long time, even when his name/face
| started showing up in the media. Then one day another customer
| shouted his name and he got mobbed by fans, and he realized he
| couldn't go out to eat like a normal person anymore. I think
| Charli crossed that line with the success of her album Brat
| last year. It's the point where you start to ask yourself if
| it's really worth it, and maybe consider going full recluse
| like Thomas Pynchon. (That's not even getting into the online
| stan culture stuff that Charli talks about in the article.)
| trogdor wrote:
| > I think Charli crossed that line with the success of her
| album Brat last year.
|
| In Hollywood, that line gets crossed at a surprisingly low
| level. I am friends with Josh Sussman, who played Jacob Ben
| Israel on Glee. I occasionally visit him in LA, and we can't
| go _anywhere_ in public without getting constantly stopped by
| people wanting photos. It's exhausting.
| derangedHorse wrote:
| I didn't watch it myself, but Glee was a very popular show.
| Since Josh Susman was a recurring character, it's
| unsurprising that he'd have a large fanbase (especially in
| LA).
| bigiain wrote:
| It's fascinating to me that her new album's name is
| "Wuthering Heights", the name of Kate Bush's debut and number
| 1 single from 1978. Kate Bush is well known (in the circles
| of people who know about this sort of thing) and as fiercely
| independent and self-controlled artist. I hope Charlii
| manages her career and fame as well as Kate has over the
| decades.
| steve1977 wrote:
| As I understand, Charli's album is the soundtrack to a
| movie called Wuthering Heights. Which is loosely based on
| the 19th century novel of the same name. And that novel was
| also the inspiration for the Kate Bush song.
| empressplay wrote:
| I will note "in the US" here.
|
| I lived in Camberwell, Australia for a while and I would run
| across Geoffrey Rush in the local supermarket fairly
| routinely.
|
| Nobody bothered him.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| > Your average NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL athletes are broke 5 years
| after they are out of the league. Fame, is mostly a curse.
|
| I'm not familiar with the financials of music / media
| production (I didn't read the linked article yet, sorry). But I
| feel this over-pitying attitude towards professional sports
| players is misplaced. They do often go broke after their
| career. That is sad. It is also completely avoidable with
| _very_ basic financial planning. I think feeling sorry for them
| is a disservice, because it makes it seem that this outcome is
| hard to avoid. It's not hard when they're making 500k+/year:
|
| 1. Spend (a lot) less than you make. At 500k/year anywhere in
| the US, you should easily be saving 200k / year.
|
| 2. Invest the money you've saved. There's lots of good advice
| online, and realistically if you're saving 200k/year you don't
| have to worry about making the best choices -- just decent
| ones.
|
| 3. Don't accept generic lifestyle creep!
|
| People need to be responsible and take control of their
| finances. You can't rely on somebody else to watch your
| finances, or make you eat your vegetables, or brush your teeth.
| The same advice applies to lots of people in tech, IMO.
| specialist wrote:
| Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your
| newsletter.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| Do you really? I keep a blog here[1], but it's very
| sporadic and not very focused -- i mostly write to satisfy
| myself
|
| [1] https://bagelpour.wordpress.com
| bigiain wrote:
| You're right, of course.
|
| But often there are obvious and "easy" answers that are
| anything but easy for the person who needs those answers.
|
| "Just cheer up, depressed person!"
|
| "Just eat less and exercise more, fat person!"
|
| "Just stop shooting up, heroin addict!"
|
| "Don't accept generic lifestyle creep, pro athlete who's
| teammates are all living it up like they live in a gangsta
| rap music video!"
|
| I'm sure there are lots of pro sports players that get and
| heed advice just like yours, and finish out their short and
| bright sports career well financially set for their remaining
| 60-ish years when they're no longer capable of earning half a
| mil plus a year being athletes.
|
| But I'm also fairly sure the career and lifestyle, and the
| managers, hangers on, and sycophants they're surrounded with
| push then hard the other direction.
|
| I'm not from the US, so I don't have a real understanding of
| US pro sports and the way people end up there, but I have
| this impression that it's "one of the ways out of the ghetto"
| for at least some of them. People who won the genetic
| lottery, but lost the birth demographics lottery. They've
| never had generation wealth or even a middle class safety
| net. They don't have family or friends who have experience or
| advice about what to do with suddenly having way more money
| that anybody the have even known. They don't have family or
| close friends who can recommend trusted financial advisors or
| lawyers. Any advice they're getting risks coming from people
| they ane not certain they can trust to have their own
| interests at heart, and aren't trying to skim their own
| percentage off the top.
|
| I don't exactly pity someone who earns 500k+ a year in a
| short pro sports career, and blows it all ending up poor. But
| I think I can understand how the system is set up - if not to
| actively encourage that outcome, at the very least that
| system probably doesn't do as much to protect against it as
| they could.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Just
|
| I often think this is the biggest word in the English
| language.
|
| Similar to how I think "might as well" may be the most
| expensive phrase.
| gizajob wrote:
| Can you expand on that? I feel like it's the most misused
| and overused word in my vocabulary and one I wish I could
| just get rid of a lot of the time and never seem to
| manage. It just creeps in.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Just in the usage being complained about argues that
| whatever it is modifying does not need or benefit from
| analysis.
|
| It just creeps in, but why? Why does it creep in? Often
| because we do not want to do the complicated analysis as
| to why things are the way they are because then it does
| not validate our preferences which are often emotional
| and not movable by logic anyway.
|
| Just exercise more, fatty, says that the problem of being
| a fatty has a simple solution that anyone can see and
| there is no need to argue the point here. Start jogging!!
|
| Just in the rather archaic meaning nowadays as being
| right and proper and what should happen in a fair and
| balanced universe is tangentially related, the archaic
| meaning of Just is memetically echoed in the assertive
| mode of Just doing things. If the world was fair and
| balanced and most of all really simple then Just jogging
| would cure the fatty, but it doesn't.
|
| on edit: changed than to then.
| pardon_me wrote:
| I call this "justing".
|
| Justing trivializes life entirely.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > "Don't accept generic lifestyle creep, pro athlete who's
| teammates are all living it up like they live in a gangsta
| rap music video!"
|
| I'm not sure lifestyle creep is actually the main problem
| that celebrities going broke suffer from. Stereotypically
| the lifestyle is something they can afford, but they make
| bad investments.
| brabel wrote:
| You are both right. Yes it's very easy to just eat less or
| spend less. But it's also nearly impossible for the obese
| or the athlete respectively. Because we need to recognize
| people don't really have free will to do what they know is
| best. If we recognized that and acted accordingly then the
| world would be so much more reasonable to live in.
| coro_1 wrote:
| Logistics are a nice guard rail for the pro-sport wealth
| management conversation. Let's presume rates of success are
| still low. Why.
|
| Consciousness. We all have a wealth consciousness.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| >They do often go broke after their career. That is sad. It
| is also completely avoidable with _very_ basic financial
| planning. I think feeling sorry for them is a disservice,
| because it makes it seem that this outcome is hard to avoid.
| It's not hard when they're making 500k+/year:
|
| this is a good point and also I believe obviously wrong.
|
| What are the stats on people making 500k a year on losing
| that going broke? Do they outperform sports stars etc.?
|
| If it is the same then that implies that on the average
| people do not handle 500k basic financial planning well, or
| two that basic financial planning won't do what you say with
| that amount of money (for what, 5 years?). At any rate it
| would mean that generally people suffer this way and thus it
| is doing a disservice to point out how dumb they were for not
| doing basic financial planning.
|
| If it is not the same then it implies that there may be
| something about the career that makes it harder then it does
| for other people in which case you are doing even more of a
| disservice.
|
| I believe it is actually there is something about the career
| that makes it harder (this belief is formed by just thinking
| about it and doing absolutely no data analysis because I just
| do not have the time to devote to it past this HN post)
|
| But I think we can create a thought experiment that shows why
| it is different
|
| Many of us here are familiar with careers the top of which
| make 500k a year, there are a few engineers who could make
| that much. Or management at tech firms, it doesn't matter.
| There are people who can make that much.
|
| Now if you lose your 500k job in tech what happens? You
| probably fall down a level to a lower paying job in tech.
| Let's say 390,000. That's a significant drop, but it's still
| a pretty nice wage.
|
| The reason for this is because the tech career is a pyramid,
| 500k at or near top. And a pyramid means that the levels
| lower than the higher levels are wider (this being an
| analogy) and being wider has more entries for you to fall
| into.
|
| Sports is also a pyramid. Or really several pyramids. There
| is the small pyramid of multi-million dollar players who can
| fall into single millions and then into the hundreds of
| thousands. But mainly the pyramid you are dealing with is an
| inverted pyramid. That is to say the sports career chart is
| top = player, most players, when you fall out of player level
| you fall into a level with fewer slots - coaches,
| commentators, agents, recruiters. If you can't fall into one
| of these slots and perform adequately (perhaps because you
| are doing a high paying job that also has high risks of
| causing brain damage [depending on sport obviously]) then
| when you lose your 500k sports job you are probably
| significantly worse off than most of us are when we lose our
| 500k programming jobs (obviously counterexamples abound, like
| if you lose job due to illness that means you won't get
| 390000 programming job either)
|
| Anyway I believe your point that these people should not be
| pitied over much because they could handle their problems
| with basic financial playing probably is a bit mean, and one
| I often hear around here.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| as it the case with most analogies, the pyramid analogy is
| severely flawed, but I do think it makes the one point
| clearly which is that when you loose a 500k programming job
| there are more lower paying jobs in the same industry you
| can fall into, when you lose a 500k sports job you might
| not have a lower paying job you can fall into because there
| just aren't that many in the sports industry.
| miki123211 wrote:
| I know nothing about pro sports, but:
|
| To be a good "team player", it's good to be liked by your
| teammates. If you want to be friends with your teammates, who
| all spend money like there's no tomorrow, it probably helps
| if you do the same.
|
| I'm not saying you can't save up as an athlete, but it's
| probably harder than we think.
| rsanek wrote:
| Seems unlikely to me. At that level (minimum salaries in
| NBA are around $1~3m, depnding on years of experience),
| even a 10% savings rate could ensure you're never totally
| "broke." I would find it hard to believe that the
| difference between spending 100% and 90% could be at all
| noticeable externally.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| You need a certain kind of personality to be responsible
| financially, and it doesn't overlap with the personality
| required of a pop star or sports star.
|
| Quite a few stars get scammed. "Our accountant/manager stole
| all the money" is not an uncommon thing.
|
| Music and sports both have shady links to organised crime, so
| it's not a given that stars are going to be surrounded with
| the kindest and most professional people.
| toast0 wrote:
| > Spend (a lot) less than you make. At 500k/year anywhere in
| the US, you should easily be saving 200k / year.
|
| $500k/year sounds like a lot, but that's enough that taxes
| are going to take a large bite. Only the biggest stars can
| get their income deferred beyond their career. Because of the
| nature of the job, you're going to have larger housing costs:
| when you get traded, you need to find somewhere to live
| quickly and you might be on the hook for the old lease for
| some time; depending on the league, off-season training may
| happen in a different part of the country than the regular
| season, so you might need housing there too... Moving costs
| probably add up, because trades are immediate.
|
| If you're only in the league for 5 years, chances are you're
| spending some time in the minors and you're typically not
| earning at your headling contract rate then... Also, a lot of
| the headline rates include bonuses for winning the
| championship which statistically few teams and players do.
|
| There's also the problem that yes, these people need
| financial advice because they don't always have financial
| skills, but they also have trouble picking financial advisers
| because they don't always have financial skills.
|
| Also, young people of all income levels get themselves into
| trouble with finance; higher income probably makes it easier.
|
| I certainly agree that $500k/year for 5 years should leave
| you well off after, but it's not that surprising that it
| often doesn't.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| Pro athletes also have higher divorce rates than the general
| population - 60-80% vs 50% source NYTimes/Sports Illustrated
| saghm wrote:
| The "average" player in one of those sports leagues isn't
| really a celebrity at the level the article is talking about.
| Charli XCX's last album was nominated for 11 Grammies and won
| six of them, and it has the 15th highest aggregate rating from
| Metacritic of all time. If you're comparing to athletes, this
| is All-Star roster, potential MVP winning-level performance for
| at least that season. By no means it's every player who hits 50
| home runs in a season is going to be set for life financially,
| but the chances they're going to struggle are a lot lower than
| some some random utility infielder or middle reliever.
| globalnode wrote:
| never heard of them before this HN article lol. the only
| thing that struck me was no paragraphs in the article, just
| one giant wall of text. and also how bored id be living that
| lifestyle (personally)
| rafaele wrote:
| Did we look at the same article? I counted 6 or 7
| paragraphs
| bigiain wrote:
| I was aware of her name, and roughly her genre, but
| couldn't have named or even recognised a single track of
| hers.
|
| I looked her up and started listening as I read the
| article, and the while listening to the two track released
| so far from her upcoming album I was thinking "this is
| really good, why haven't I listened to her before?" then I
| put on her last album Brat, and realised "Oh, right. That's
| not my style of music. She's never been writing for me, and
| I know who she is writing for, and I understand why they
| like her and why she's so popular." And I respect that.
|
| I'll keep an ear out for her new album, and based on what
| I've heard so far I fully expect to enjoy it, way more than
| I'm enjoying Brat. I've also added her substack to my rss
| feeds, no guarantee it'll stay there long term, but I'm at
| least curious enough to follow along for her next few
| blogposts.
| Insanity wrote:
| I know of her name, but I couldn't name a single song of
| hers.
|
| Luckily we don't all enjoy the same music, that would be
| boring as well! :)
| TheMayorOfDunce wrote:
| I would bet you have encountered a much larger catalog of
| Charli tracks than you might think. I too was in the same
| position last year. Then I looked her up and she has
| actually produced like 30% of the songs played in Urban
| hat shops, in public places that allow swimming, and in
| office buildings in the hvac-safe entrance zone between
| the first and second set of automatic doors.
| saghm wrote:
| And there are plenty of people who haven't heard of Aaron
| Judge or Steph Curry. That doesn't change the fact that
| they've played at an entirely different level than the
| overwhelming majority of other athletes playing their
| sport.
|
| My point wasn't that everyone will recognize them, just
| that there's a pretty clear difference between the most
| successful few at the top of their domain and the others
| who might still be able to make a living doing it but
| aren't superstar-level compared to their peers, and that's
| independent of whether every single person knows who they
| are. The parent comment brought to the idea of average
| players of the major professional sports leagues, and I
| felt like that was almost missing the context of this
| article, which is someone who might be the literally have
| been the most successful artist of last year, not just an
| average a professional musician.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Your average NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL athletes are broke 5 years
| after they are out of the league. Fame, is mostly a curse.
|
| They would also have been broke if they hadn't been athletes.
| The career doesn't damage their finances. It's excellent for
| their finances while it lasts, and then they revert to normal.
| Why would you call that a curse?
| derangedHorse wrote:
| That just sounds like you're saying the "average" person in all
| those professions are bad at personal finance. Maybe that's a
| reflection of society at large. One articles estimates 90% of
| Americans being in debt[1] so it wouldn't surprise me that this
| successful subset would fare much better (although I would bet
| they do when compared to the general population).
|
| Also debt isn't always bad, but most individuals quoted in the
| study are probably not holding the good type of debt (debt one
| can easily pay off but doesn't).
|
| [1] https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/demographics/
| ivraatiems wrote:
| There is a weird assumption people make that somebody as
| successful as Charli XCX isn't smart because her persona is "I
| like cocaine and partying," and then are surprised when she can
| express herself like this. Like she says: "Another thing about
| being a pop star is that you cannot avoid the fact that some
| people are simply determined to prove that you are stupid."
|
| Making music at any professional level is extremely hard work.
| Touring and dancing and hosting shows is even harder. It requires
| a substantial intellectual capacity and stamina to achieve. You
| either have these things yourself, or you are propped up entirely
| by others who have them and are invested in you for money's sake.
| Given Charli XCX's background, it's not actually surprising that
| she, in fact, has all the talent, skill, and intellect required
| to do this stuff herself.
|
| Editing to add: Another place to look to learn that people with
| this skillset often have very very deep inner lives is Dua Lipa's
| book club podcast (https://www.service95.com/tag/book-club). As
| someone who used to run these kinds of in-depth interviews, I can
| say, she is damn good at it.
| astrange wrote:
| > There is a weird assumption people make that somebody as
| successful as Charli XCX isn't smart because her persona is "I
| like cocaine and partying,"
|
| Considering cocaine is both illegal and has an obviously
| unethical supply chain, you'd think someone would try, you
| know, prosecuting her or something.
| ggm wrote:
| If she's prosecuted before a long queue of others, we'd be
| entitled to suggest the law is not being applied equally.
| Start a little higher up the food chain with the politicians.
| astrange wrote:
| The politicians aren't announcing they use cocaine in
| public, are they? Even if some of them do sniff a lot on
| camera.
| nekitamo wrote:
| They've literally found cocaine at the White House and
| refused to persecute anyone for it. Rules for thee but
| not for me.
| astrange wrote:
| That's not enough evidence to tie it to a person. I
| remember that one and it seemed like it was dropped by
| someone on a tour.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| I wonder if I'm missing some sarcasm, but I feel I need to
| clarify that "I like cocaine and partying" is her _persona_,
| it isn't necessarily true. It's largely marketing. I feel
| this was the main point of the article, lol.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Well, the first major point she makes is that she really
| loves partying.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| In a lot of places drug enforcement is being deprioritized,
| for good reason. Of course then you run into all the problems
| with only enforcing against people someone doesn't like.
| XorNot wrote:
| One of my rules for travel is don't go to places where the
| laws are basically selectively not enforced for the
| convenience of tourists.
| bigiain wrote:
| I have a very similar rule, which is why I can no longer
| visit my family and friends in the US...
| astrange wrote:
| Bali and Singapore will execute tourists for having
| drugs, so you can go there I guess.
| walletdrainer wrote:
| I'm not sure many tourists are traveling with quantities
| sufficient to qualify for that treatment.
|
| More likely you'll face a fine or a strong talking to if
| you get caught at the airport with some small quantity of
| pot.
| astrange wrote:
| Asia? A lecture? For marijuana?
|
| You're getting banned for life.
| russelg wrote:
| What's the point of prosecuting users?
| astrange wrote:
| That's how you get a cooperating witness against their
| dealers.
|
| Also, it's illegal.
| jameslk wrote:
| Charli XCX is diverse and experimental enough that my first
| instinct would be to assume she's rather intelligent. For
| example, her collaboration in the PC Music scene comes off
| rather nerdy and eccentric actually, not exactly pop. And her
| lyrics usually have more to it than meets the ear, e.g.
| sometimes intentionally being a commentary on the party persona
| keeping her distracted from worse things. "I hate the silence
| (uh oh), that's why the music's always loud"
|
| Of course, that isn't a shallow opinion so perhaps someone
| unfamiliar to her would think otherwise
| Insanity wrote:
| Does she write her own lyrics? Or does someone else write
| those for her?
|
| I'm not saying she is or isn't intelligent, and either way
| she clearly is talented in some area of music, just wondering
| if she is a singer or singer/songwriter :)
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| >> And her lyrics usually have more to it than meets the
| ear
|
| > Does she write her own lyrics? Or does someone else write
| those for her?
|
| Even when a singer is performing a song they didn't write,
| they're often doing that because the song appeals to them.
| bigmealbigmeal wrote:
| What you're saying is a very common "poptimist" trope of the
| last decade or two. To say that, actually, these vocalists are
| highly intelligent and largely responsible for their own
| success.
|
| Charli XCX, like nearly all popstars, was propped up by the
| producers and writers who shaped her sound and composed large
| parts of the music. Producers have been there the whole way. In
| particular, her blowing up was highly influenced by the
| stylistic direction, composition, production and sound
| engineering of people associated with the PC Music record
| label. The statement that she had good enough taste to have
| been around these people is rather unfair -- she was around
| artistic innovators like Sophie, yes, but THEY are the ones
| that pioneered the sound.
|
| The most common refrain is that popstars often write their
| music. This is misleading: they write the lyrics, suggest a
| general vibe, and some rough melodies or chords. And even this
| is a stretch many times. They are not composing or producing
| the music in any larger sense, and this is the pivotal part of
| actually making music.
|
| One famous exception that comes to mind is Grimes, who largely
| actually /makes/ her own music. She rarely seems to get credit
| for this.
|
| This is not to say that vocalist popstars don't bring a lot to
| the table. They do. But what they bring to the table is
| incredible performance skill and charisma. I think poptimism
| has gone too far, to the point that we think the product was
| responsible for creating itself.
| ad_hockey wrote:
| > The most common refrain is that popstars often write their
| music. This is misleading: they write the lyrics, suggest a
| general vibe, and some rough melodies or chords. And even
| this is a stretch many times. They are not composing or
| producing the music in any larger sense, and this is the
| pivotal part of actually making music.
|
| To be fair, if they write the lyrics, define the vibe/feel of
| the song, and compose the melody and chord progression, then
| that does sound like the vast majority of the song. What's
| left - I guess some additional instrumentation, the
| percussion, production? To me it does sound fair to credit
| the popstar with having composed the music in this case.
| bigmealbigmeal wrote:
| The operative word was "rough". They give a few hints;
| they're not painstakingly mapping out the melodies and
| chords for every instrument and determining what those
| instruments are, and how they sound.
|
| If you're writing for a guitar and voice, then you've
| basically got a song, but pop music is built on sometimes
| hundreds of different instruments and effects.
| ad_hockey wrote:
| That seems like quite a high bar, to the extent that I'm
| not sure we could ever credit anyone with creating a pop
| song if it applies. Everyone seems comfortable crediting
| Lennon and McCartney with their various Beatles songs,
| for example, but were they doing all the things you
| describe? Did they do more to create those songs than,
| say, Taylor Swift does for hers? It's not obvious to me
| that it's the case.
| bigmealbigmeal wrote:
| Yes, it's absolutely the case for Lennon and McCartney,
| since they didn't give rough ideas to George Martin to
| fill in; they specifically wrote the exact melodies for
| half the instruments involved and exactly how to play
| them.
|
| You could argue that Harrison and Starr always deserved
| some of the writing credit, since they often determined
| their parts, and I wouldn't actually disagree with that
| -- though Lennon and McCartney were kinda control freaks,
| so I'm not sure how much leeway was actually given. When
| they started bringing in extra instruments, again, there
| is arguably some extra credit to be given to Martin and
| others, but Lennon and McCartney were still strongly
| directing what was to be played.
|
| For what it's worth -- and this is going to get me hated
| even more than my popstar-skepticism -- I don't really
| like the Beatles that much. But it's transparent that
| they did more than Taylor Swift because they were
| specifically and precisely writing the melodies for the
| instruments being played.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Yes, they did. George Martin was an arranger, not a co-
| writer. Max Martin is a co-writer.
|
| If you gave Lennon and McCartney a couple of guitars, a
| few days of studio time, a good mood, and no other help
| you'd probably get a hit. Or at least an interesting
| song.
|
| If you gave Taylor Swift the same you'd get a demo,
| maybe. You _might_ get an unassisted hit, but the odds
| are much lower.
|
| Charli XCX - even more so. Give her a laptop and
| microphone and some plugins and no producer, and I doubt
| you'd get much.
|
| Not to say that what she and Dua Lipa do is easy. But
| they're fundamentally performers and brands for a music
| production operation.
|
| Creative agency isn't a binary. It's on a spectrum. Some
| people have very little. Some have a lot. Some have
| _taste_ that defines the product, even though they 're
| mostly curating other people's work.
|
| Michael Jackson was notorious for this. He was a
| phenomenal dancer, an ok vocalist, not much of a
| practical musician. But he had a strong sense of what he
| wanted, and he had a theatricality that pulled the whole
| thing together.
|
| Charli XCX is a version of that. I don't think her appeal
| is as strong or as universal, and I doubt she has as much
| agency as Jackson did. But it's the same idea - shape,
| curate, perform.
| jameslk wrote:
| > In particular, her blowing up was highly influenced by the
| stylistic direction, composition, production and sound
| engineering of people associated with the PC Music record
| label.
|
| No, if anything Charli XCX was the one that put PC Music on
| the map. She has been a fairly big name since 2012
|
| > she was around artistic innovators like Sophie, yes, but
| THEY are the ones that pioneered the sound.
|
| Sophie didn't pioneer the sound of PC Music any more than
| e.g. AG Cook, QT, Hannah Diamond, Danny L Harle, 100 gecs, or
| any of the other many artists involved, including Charli XCX
|
| You're talking as if PC Music is some huge label with a lot
| of help, when it's mostly just AG Cook. He and Charli XCX
| collaborated on tracks for a couple of Charli's albums
| bigmealbigmeal wrote:
| Charli XCX was around before PC Music, but the sound she is
| known for and became famous for originated from PC Music.
| The fact that she delivered a bit of "minor popstar" cred
| to them is fine, but the key to my point is that they
| determined the sound that made her iconic.
|
| Sophie was an example. I didn't see it necessary to talk
| about all the artists involved in PC Music to make the
| point that the producers on the label pioneered the sound.
|
| Look at the credits for her albums. She had producers and
| writers credited on every single song. This IS a lot of
| help. You're acting like she just did a couple of collabs
| with AG Cook and that's it. She had many different people
| helping her on the actual composition and production of
| every single song.
|
| This is the point being refuted -- that the popstars are
| geniuses responsible for carrying the burden of their rise.
| It's mythology. The reality is that they bring performance
| skills and charisma to the table, some non-awful lyrical
| skill, and then the lion's share of actually making the
| music work is done by producers and writers. They would be
| nowhere without the producers. The producers would be
| nowhere without the popstars. But it's the most common
| poptimist mistake to confuse the popstar's charisma for the
| producer's mastery.
| verall wrote:
| Your point is clear, but Charli does a lot of production
| on her albums, so I'm not sure she's the one to make this
| point about. She's not a once in a lifetime producing
| genius like Sophie, but she doesn't claim to be. Yung
| Lean did not produce the sound that made him famous
| either.
|
| I think in the modern day, due to Internet, access to
| DAWs, etc, a lot of pop stars actually do/did much more
| of their own writing and production, see Billie & Finneas
| or Chappel Roan. It's just much more accessible, there's
| lots of pretty faces on social media so to really break
| out, you either need some real connections or real chops.
| thewisenerd wrote:
| there's this video essay of what makes dua lipa's podcasts
| good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN1rULxGHCA
| IshKebab wrote:
| > I find that this is often where the stupidity narrative can be
| born. I've always wondered why someone else's success triggers
| such rage and anger in certain people and I think it probably all
| boils down to the fact that the patriarchal society we
| unfortunately live in has successfully brainwashed us all. We are
| still trained to hate women, to hate ourselves and to be angry at
| women if they step out of the neat little box that public
| perception has put them in. I think subconsciously people still
| believe there is only room for women to be a certain type of way
| and once they claim to be one way they better not DARE grow or
| change or morph into something else.
|
| Nah it's nothing to do with women, it's simple jealousy. Everyone
| wants to be successful. If they can dismiss successful people as
| lucky or whatever (tbf some are) then it makes them feel better
| about their own failure to be successful (they are just as good;
| they just weren't as lucky).
|
| A natural human tendency. Look at all the people saying Elon Musk
| isn't _really_ an engineer. Yeah right, he definitely is heavily
| involved in the high level technical decisions. Yes he 's an
| arsehole and moderately racist and probably quite lucky too but
| he _is_ good at his job.
| TechnicolorByte wrote:
| How's that 2016 promise of LA to NYC autonomous driving goal
| going for Musk? Or his Cybercab venture going? And the decision
| to not use LIDAR in his vehicles? Or the Cybertruck's dismal
| engineering and sales?
| astrange wrote:
| Musk really is that good and nobody else is capable of
| building factories in the US, but the skills are in raising
| money and defeating NIMBYism. Raising money (and starting
| startups) involves a lot of lies and delusions which are not
| always adaptive skills.
|
| He fell off when he lost his egirl and became a drug addict.
| wtcactus wrote:
| - "Hi. I'm an engineer at NASA."
|
| - "(Scoffs). You're an engineer? Yeah, right. What about that
| Challenger explosion? And how come you don't put anyone on
| the Moon for 50 years? Engineer..."
|
| That's how your comment reads.
| mrdependable wrote:
| I think the people who argue about whether Musk is an engineer
| are the people who look up to him as a sort of Tony Stark
| figure. He certainly isn't Tony Stark, but then again, no one
| is.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > Nah it's nothing to do with women, it's simple jealousy.
|
| On the same note here. It's quite interesting what women are
| quick to attribute any negative behaviour or feeling against
| them as a sexism and maybe this is a result of some _popular_
| culture behaviour.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057441
| nprateem wrote:
| I thought the same thing.
|
| As for Musk... tbh I think as the vast majority of us want
| things from other people we temper our behaviour.
|
| But when you have enough fame and money to do what you want the
| filters can come off and we can be the selfish nasty people we
| really are. And some people obviously like to play on that too
| to get air time or just prove a point.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Yeah it seems like rich people lose some of the feedback from
| society that helps keep people relatively "normal" - you can
| see it in the names of their children for example (not just
| Musk).
| squigz wrote:
| > Yes he's an arsehole and moderately racist and probably quite
| lucky too but he is good at his job.
|
| So one can be a massive piece of shit as long as they're good
| at their job?
|
| Many of us here probably have worked with people like that.
| It's not a good environment to work in.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Nobody said that. OP's point was to say "he is good at his
| job" as a counter to the people who say he isn't good as his
| job (i.e. "he isn't a real engineer"), not as a counter to
| people who think he's a jerk.
| squigz wrote:
| Then I'm not sure why the points immediately preceding that
| are relevant.
| bitwize wrote:
| The Dire Straits song "Money for Nothing" is one of my all-time
| favorite 80s hits. Mark Knopfler pretty much composed the lyrics
| simply by transcribing some remarks he overheard from blue-collar
| servicemen working at an appliance store, and adjusting them a
| bit to make them scan and rhyme.
|
| The deliberate irony is that contrary to the servicemen's belief
| that rock stars live a life of ease, the life of a musician can
| be grueling. You have to spend years mastering your instrument(s)
| _and then_ win the record-deal lottery; after which your time is
| pretty much divided between being in the studio recording, on
| tour performing and promoting the album on a round-the-clock
| schedule, and with the rise of MTV shooting music videos. It 's
| no wonder rock stars are prone to hedonism; they probably think
| they have to drink deeply of relaxation and pleasure while they
| have the opportunity, in order to reset and be ready for the next
| album, the next concert tour, the next press event...
| pan69 wrote:
| In similar vein, the U2 song Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill
| Me has similar self-deprecating lyrics on what it is to be a
| pop star. They want you to be Jesus
| They'll go down on one knee But they'll want their money
| back If you're alive at thirty-three
|
| https://genius.com/U2-hold-me-thrill-me-kiss-me-kill-me-lyri...
| pardon_me wrote:
| They try to sell your body and your soul It's the price you pay
| for rock 'n roll And no-one understands it how you feel For
| it's so unreal, oh, it's so unreal
|
| Baby, don't you cry for me It's an illusion, just an illusion
|
| BZN - Just An Illusion https://genius.com/Bzn-just-an-illusion-
| lyrics
| ggm wrote:
| The James Blunt documentary has similar qualities of the insanity
| and the banality of fame. "You look just like..." type
| commentary, from ordinary encounters. Both reviled and admired,
| he managed to leverage haters on Twitter into an image of self
| deprecating humour. Combined with some PTSD from his army career
| and stage effects.
|
| Ed Sheeran gives off what i suspect is a very carefully managed
| vibe of ordinariness. If it's not curated it's very well done.
| gizajob wrote:
| His music has that vibe through and through.
| gishh wrote:
| > I've always wondered why someone else's success triggers such
| rage and anger in certain people and I think it probably all
| boils down to the fact that the patriarchal society we
| unfortunately live in has successfully brainwashed us all. We are
| still trained to hate women, to hate ourselves and to be angry at
| women if they step out of the neat little box that public
| perception has put them in.
|
| I assume roughly half of pop stars are male, give or take. Or,
| given the quote and speaking in generalities, at least roughly
| half of successful people are male. I'm sure we can all name
| wildly successful males who garner the same hate she is speaking
| about.
|
| I don't think it's patriarchy, I think it's simply jealously,
| insecurity, and judgmental feelings all wrapped up into a big
| ball of hate.
|
| Or it's the patriarchy. Just doesn't make sense for the point
| trying to be made.
| bigiain wrote:
| > I assume roughly half of pop stars are male, give or take.
|
| I'd question that assumption. My gut feel says there are way
| more women pop stars?
|
| I did a very quick bit of research, and maybe we're both wrong.
|
| https://wealthygorilla.com/richest-singers-world/
|
| Splits up as 31 men to 19 women on their top 50 richest singers
| list. So closer to 2/3rds men that half.
|
| I did realise while counting, that my gut feel wouldn't have
| included a lot of those men as "pop stars", in retrospect
| probably because my interpretation of "pop music" leans heavily
| towards women, and rightly or wrongly I'd label at least half
| the men on that list as "rock stars" instead (and very few of
| the women).
| rkomorn wrote:
| Maybe it's related to the decades during which I grew up, but
| I'd say "rock star" had a better connotation than "pop star"
| when I was growing up.
|
| "Pop stars" contained a lot of boy/girl bands or solo artists
| who "don't write their own songs/music" (among many other
| accusations of not being "real musicians").
| rubenvanwyk wrote:
| I also don't understand why people don't ascribe some
| inherently bad behaviours to human nature. Everyone knows
| people aren't perfect, but somehow we have to blame some
| institutions or perceived societal phenomena instead of just
| acknowledging that we are, in our very nature, flawed - but
| capable of great change, and should just all endeavour to "be
| better".
| sandspar wrote:
| Her job is dependent on being likeable to a mass audience. If
| you want to be likeable to a mass audience then it's most
| effective to repeat bromides.
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| It is ironic that she talks about "the patriarchy" brainwashing
| people. I have serious doubts that she came up with the thought
| to blame it on the "patriarchy" herself.
| sfblah wrote:
| I had to go on Youtube to listen to some of the music mentioned
| here, as I'm pretty out of the loop on it. Given what I heard I
| honestly think we're basically at the point where AI can generate
| equivalent or even better music. It's just very simple and
| doesn't feel particularly innovative or noteworthy.
|
| Point being, I think it's likely this person is one of the last
| pop stars.
|
| Actually, as I'm writing this, I realized that probably the music
| being produced by this person is actually done by a computer. So,
| maybe she's in the first wave of totally artificial pop stars.
| nprateem wrote:
| Maybe you could tell all her fans how stupid they are and
| shouldn't enjoy her music.
|
| Why not save them from themselves with some of your approved
| recommendations?
| sfblah wrote:
| With pleasure!
| empressplay wrote:
| The novelty in pop music is not usually in the harmony. The
| novelty is usually in the presentation. The idea is that you
| hook the audience with familiarity (nostalgia) and then keep
| them with a novel expression of it. In recent years, this means
| really strange synth patches and vocal effects.
| jameslk wrote:
| It makes me sad to think you have formed this opinion on her
| more than decade long career that spans a variety of genres and
| many collaborations based on a few brat songs you may have
| listened to
| sfblah wrote:
| I'm open to changing my view! Please give some
| recommendations.
| jameslk wrote:
| Music is a subjective thing, but what I like about Charli
| XCX is her albums have completely different sound from
| album to album, but are consistently fun to listen to. As
| if it puts you in a certain energetic mood. Listening to
| albums in full you can tell many tracks experiment with the
| genre. For example, she brought a niche thing like hyperpop
| to mainstream listeners in her prior 2 albums before brat.
|
| These are some that I like from various albums:
|
| https://youtu.be/CRYYBDG1b4Y
|
| https://youtu.be/f-NS9hnmWN4
|
| https://youtu.be/JsYJYUQgT7k
|
| https://youtu.be/chSZCtLrgz8
|
| https://youtu.be/5f5A4DnGtis
| sethaurus wrote:
| > _Actually, as I 'm writing this, I realized that probably the
| music being produced by this person is actually done by a
| computer. So, maybe she's in the first wave of totally
| artificial pop stars._
|
| Her main collaborator, co-creator and producer of many years is
| the artist AG Cook, who founded the label PC Music. He appears
| often in her music videos and gets mentioned in her lyrics. His
| own solo work plays a lot with pairing the artificial and the
| organic, taking the "slick" aesthetics of electronic pop to
| abrasive extremes and placing it next to vulnerability and
| gentleness.
|
| This is my favourite piece of his work (both the song and the
| video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH2wQ5speuU
|
| Charli's work or his might not suit your taste! But these are
| real people doing interesting stuff and playing with the form.
| It's not fake.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > especially when your old friends mock and ridicule you for
| caring about something absolutely pointless.
|
| My dad flew 32 missions over Germany. He watched men die. 80% of
| his cohort did not return. He expected to die and made his peace
| with it. He told me once that when he returned home, he was
| struck by the trivial problems people had and obsessed over.
| After all, they weren't flying a mission tomorrow with near
| certain death.
|
| He said whenever he felt down, he'd recall the men that never had
| a chance to grow old, and his problems would melt away.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I sometimes wonder what my widower grandfather thought, sending
| his only son off to war.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| I wondered about that as well. I would do whatever I can to
| avoid my sons going to war because these wars are fought for
| interests that are completely remote.
|
| I can imagine resistance when you are invaded (and still, you
| need to weigh your real chances). Sending someone to Africa
| from France to protect some interests there, well not that
| much.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Hitler declared war on the US,
| Hitler was allied with Japan, and Hitler was sinking
| American shipping.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Yes, in the case of WW2 this is a "defense" war. But the
| next ones were not.
|
| My comment was general - I am French and we send our army
| mostly to Africa to secure our sources of various
| minerals. Or to Asia in the 70s. We did not go to Iraq
| but that would have been another fight for oil (this
| time).
|
| Western countries have not been attacked since WW2, but
| it also have been busy (same as the US)
| LanceH wrote:
| > He told me once that when he returned home, he was struck by
| the trivial problems people had and obsessed over.
|
| I always feel put in a position when I'm in an interview and
| they ask about handling pressure in the workplace.
| abc123abc123 wrote:
| I always feel like this is elitist (oh, look at your silly
| little problem, I risked death, and you are complaining about
| rent.
|
| And I always respond with, yes, not everyone risked death, and
| they do have a right to complain about rent. You did it because
| of your own free choice.
|
| Another aspect of this silly stance is that if we always
| compare with death, nothing ever gets done. It is perfectly
| reasonable to have everything, and still aim towards other
| goals. If one is not risking life, you are well justified in
| complaining about the traffic jam.
| mettamage wrote:
| Well yea sure. But also look at death though. What does any
| uncomfortable thing mean in the face of death?
|
| Not much. And this is coming from someone who hasn't
| voluntarily faced death or consciously experienced the threat
| of it.
|
| I respect both views. I guess it takes some Janusian thinking
| skills [1], for me at least, but both perspectives are worth
| it.
|
| [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/creative-
| exploration...
| WalterBright wrote:
| Anytime you wake up in the morning and are able to get out
| of bed and stand up is a beautiful day.
|
| I've never wanted to transfer my brain into a machine.
| Isn't it wonderful to feel the floor under your feet? To
| smell the air? To taste a steak? To hear the bees? To see
| the leaves? To hold your partner?
|
| Every day is an opportunity to enjoy your life.
|
| I don't really know what kind of a man I am, because I have
| never volunteered to face death.
| baubino wrote:
| It's less "look at your silly problem" and more "how can I
| fully appreciate life." I see that perspective as grounding,
| not elitist. The previous commenter's dad is not telling
| others what to do or how to live; he's deciding for himself
| how _he_ wants to live.
| throwup238 wrote:
| _> You did it because of your own free choice._
|
| Since when is getting drafted a free choice? Over 60% of US
| soldiers in WWWI had no choice whatsoever.
| richardfulop wrote:
| Over 6,000 Americans were imprisoned during WWII for
| refusing induction without recognized objection status.
| WalterBright wrote:
| My dad had a draft exemption because he was a mechanic at
| Lockheed building airplanes. He volunteered.
|
| All the B-17 crews were volunteers.
| Balgair wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx-fnR5G1cs
|
| The cereal aisle scene from _Hurt Locker_ always did it for me
| nikhizzle wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this. Needed something meaningful this
| morning.
| WalterBright wrote:
| You're welcome. He also remained in contact with his crew
| until their deaths.
| joshcsimmons wrote:
| It is correct to be skeptical of people who parlay their fame in
| one domain into another. The most powerful man in the US right
| now is just a reality TV star.
|
| At best, it allows "celebrities" to hop into any domain of their
| choosing without any real qualification or having earned their
| way in that particular field.
| bdangubic wrote:
| what qualification does one need to be US President (besides
| being born in the US and of certain age)? celebrities certainly
| won't be doing any open heart surgeries anytime soon :) so
| there are things you absolutely do not need any qualitications
| for (Actor/Actress, US President) and there those you do
| (Surgeon, Attorney...)
| squigz wrote:
| The idea that you shouldn't need qualifications - which,
| might I add, is not the same as certification - to be the
| President of The United States is a wild one.
| bdangubic wrote:
| I am not sure if there is a single country now (or there
| was one ever) where there were any
| requirements/qualifications needed to be the President
| chickensong wrote:
| You need to be rich and well connected.
| bdangubic wrote:
| Obama was neither
| harvey9 wrote:
| He might have started out as neither but to get a run at
| the party nomination required that he developed some good
| connections first.
| bdangubic wrote:
| yea for sure POTUS (or even just party candidate) will
| eventually be both you you don't need to be either to
| begin with (though it obviously helps, more and more
| countries are choosing billionaires to run them :) )
| snowwrestler wrote:
| Not just fame and celebrity. Any major success occurs within a
| certain narrow context, and when people stray outside that
| context they are not necessarily going to be better than anyone
| else. There are plenty of examples of business leaders,
| scientists, etc who tried to hop domains and fell on their
| faces.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > The most powerful man in the US right now is just a reality
| TV star.
|
| That's a strange characterization; he was famous across the
| country before there was even a concept of "reality TV".
| e40 wrote:
| He was known by an order of magnitude more people after he
| became a reality tv star.
| bnjms wrote:
| Right. He parlayed his fame into reality stardom.
|
| I added it's a word way to put it. He became more famous
| generally but he was already known to NY and powerful
| people.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Really? In the 70s he would have been known to the
| population that read newspaper comic strips. He's been a
| household name continuously from then to now.
| coro_1 wrote:
| This was great stream of consciousness. Sub-stack is more
| appealing now.
| mediumsmart wrote:
| The reality of being labeled a consumer by a Popstar is _unreal_
| sandspar wrote:
| Her essay makes it seem like she's mostly powerless. She gets
| shuttled around from place to place because other people make
| money by using her as a prop. She gets paid lots of money and is
| given freedom, in a sense, but it's freedom to gorge herself on
| basic pleasures like attention, drugs, and wealth. Overall it
| seems like a childlike existence.
| dwroberts wrote:
| This is what makes the 'successful' parts slightly off to me. I
| get that she _is_ successful, she is well known, presumably
| made good money etc - but in some sense it's the machinery
| behind her that has been successful in using her. Everything
| she is, is just a brand created and owned by someone else.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > You're in transit, you're going somewhere but the journey
| itself takes up the majority of the experience.
|
| That's how most people function. People work their asses off so
| that they can do something fun two weeks a year.
|
| > Another thing about being a pop star is that you cannot avoid
| the fact that some people are simply determined to prove that you
| are stupid.
|
| Because even though people clearly have different levels of
| intelligence, saying this out loud goes against values of the
| society, and keeping the society together is more important than
| being truthful. This is one of those things that "normies"
| understand subconsciously but never articulate, while autists
| rarely understand because it's never articulated.
|
| > Another thing about being a pop star is that you cannot avoid
| the fact that some people are simply determined to prove that you
| are stupid
|
| Pop star gets successful by playing a role of a stupid person.
| Some people think she's actually stupid. It doesn't take a degree
| in social sciences to connect the dots.
|
| > I've always wondered why someone else's success triggers such
| rage and anger
|
| Jealously has existed since the dawn of time. Various cultures
| have sayings along "nothing makes one happier than someone else's
| misery".
|
| > the patriarchal society
|
| I've noticed that many people who see themselves as oppressed get
| tunnel vision and attribute lots of unrelated problems to said
| oppression. This is one of those subconscious biases that exist
| because having them gives you massive social advantage because
| you can get all the pity you want.
|
| > Over recent years some people seem to have developed a
| connection between fame and moral responsibility that I've never
| really understood.
|
| Rich and famous people have power. They're expected to use that
| power for good regardless of how they got the power.
| decimalenough wrote:
| No, she means _literally_ being in transit from point A to
| point B. On a tour bus, in an airline lounge, on a plane, in a
| cab, in some random hotel, backstage waiting to go on stage.
|
| I did 100% business travel for a couple of a years, and it was
| pretty grueling despite mostly being stationed with the same
| customer for a couple of months. At the Charli XCX level, you
| may be doing 4 gigs in 4 different cities in 3 days:
|
| https://toursetlist.com/charli-xcx-tour-setlist/
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| I've known many pop stars (have worked in the pro audio industry
| for decades) and one thing that is common among them is that they
| are very interesting people. Very rarely interested - mostly
| involved in being interesting.
|
| I think there has to be a balance, personally. If you spend your
| life trying to be as interesting as possible, it gets very
| spiritually depleting. If you do take an honest interest in
| others, though, the pop-star factor gets multiplied.
|
| So many times I've seen fans congregate around a star, struck as
| they were, to be regaled with that stars new interesting thing,
| or entertaining acts. Sure, they walk away with the experience.
| But, whenever the pop star turns it around and takes more of an
| interest in the other person - wow! The fan factor multiplies
| significantly. (Incidentally, this works not just for pop stars
| but also anyone at all, actually.)
|
| That said, I don't think being a pop star is a particularly
| healthy activity. The exhaustion levels once the green room door
| is closed are pretty obvious, and the means of healing from
| weeks, or months and months of continuous, daily, "being
| interesting" takes a huge toll.
|
| The pop stars I've known, intimately, who have a strong family
| that just treat them like regular people, are usually the
| healthiest. The few stars I consider friends, as in we could call
| each other just to hang out and chat now and then, are really the
| ones who find this balance early in their life.
|
| I also have a somewhat famous actress in my family, and she is an
| extremely tiring person to be around, even though she has
| millions of adoring fans, because there is a continual vibe of
| being as interesting as possible, no matter the circumstances,
| and this is exhausting for those of us who live with her on a
| regular basis. Inter-family gossip always takes note of her
| attention levels.
| NaomiLehman wrote:
| I would guess that the balance is difficult for regular people
| and impossible for famous people.
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| It's not impossible - it just requires attention and is a
| part of the responsibilities of the job, in my opinion.
|
| But even regular people try too hard to be interesting
| sometimes. Attention is a currency in our culture; its too
| often traded poorly.
| NaomiLehman wrote:
| I don't know what the famous people are actually feeling
| and struggling with. I don't know how much of what they are
| saying is an act and how much is real.
|
| 2025 example: Chappell Roan - I have no idea if she is
| genuine or is this a very cleverly manufactured brand.
| Outbursts at fans, bipolar disorder, anxiety, etc.
| MomsAVoxell wrote:
| Culture is as culture does. I dare say that the in-group
| for any star has their buttons - whether the conditions
| to push those buttons are legitimate or otherwise, would
| Chappell Roan be on your mind if she wasn't pushing your
| buttons? Marketing people know this mechanism all too
| well; it is a large factor for why we have billion-dollar
| tabloid machines.
|
| Needless to say, the pop industry is all about creating a
| facsimile of a thing, if not the thing itself. You're not
| buying bread from these stars - you're buying a picture
| of life.
| dbspin wrote:
| While this is a fascinating perspective, I find this analysis of
| the source of hate online to be under-examined and self serving.
|
| Sure, any public figure will be the target of hatred, negative
| projection, ridicule. And doubtless that's doubly true for female
| celebrities. But much of this is driven by envy - envy fuelled by
| the gilded age level of inequality we're currently experiencing.
| By the performative nature of conspicuous consumption by pop
| stars. By their ubiquity and elevation to celestial rather than
| mere celebrity status.
|
| There's another factor she fails to recognise. Charlie XCX's
| music is woeful. 'Pop' in the sense of ephemeral, unoriginal,
| commercial, rather than merely popular. That, combined with her
| pretension to art makes her vast wealth and celebrity irksome in
| a way that the success of more original, avant garde or obviously
| 'artistic' musicians from David Bowie to Imogen Heap is not.
| tormeh wrote:
| It's just entertainment. I don't think there's anything to it.
| The four chord song over and over. We all want some sort of
| excitement or maybe magic, and these superstars give it to us.
| The reality distortion fields around them is attractive in and
| of themself as an escape from our boring lives. Being
| 'artistic' is not in itself a good thing. It could just mean
| you take yourself too seriously. If you advance the art somehow
| - cool. If you're just being weird for the sake of
| originality... I guess some people like that as well.
| dbspin wrote:
| > Being 'artistic' is not in itself a good thing.
|
| It's as much a part of being human as love or work or dance
| or any other culturally universal meaningful activity. And
| making art is significantly more important for our personal
| development and wellbeing than consuming entertainment.
|
| > We all want some sort of excitement or maybe magic, and
| these superstars give it to us.
|
| You're not describing magic, you're describing succour. The
| avoidance of pain. It's not worthless by any means, but it's
| low down on the pyramid of needs. It's a testament to the
| diminished expectations and value inversions of our culture
| that we misperceive fluff as worthwhile, and sincere creative
| expression as 'taking yourself too seriously'.
| verall wrote:
| Do you think Charli's music is unoriginal and commercial?
| brabel wrote:
| > We are still trained to hate women, to hate ourselves and to be
| angry at women if they step out of the neat little box that
| public perception has put them in.
|
| I really don't see this. Female singers seem to be enjoying about
| as much freedom to do and act in whatever way they please as it's
| possible without basically letting them get away with criminal
| behavior... and even then many openly talk about doing drugs and
| other stuff that would get anyone else in trouble. Is it possible
| I am blind to some patriarchal society traits that make us "hate"
| women and she's right about that?? If not, why some women still
| believe that??
| NaomiLehman wrote:
| Few female pop stars manage to gain success without appealing
| to the "male gaze" even if they produce stuff for women as
| their target demographic. On the contrary people mostly don't
| care if male musicians are hot - Ed Sheeran or make very
| questionable decisions - Drake.
|
| Look at top 20 male and female popular artists on Spotify and
| try to think how many of them are agreeable and objectively
| good looking.
|
| https://kworb.net/spotify/listeners.html
|
| I don't know know if this answers your question. I also might
| have a huge blind spot, open to talking about this.
| amenhotep wrote:
| The majority of the popular male musicians there are
| comparably photogenic to the females, Sheeran is really the
| major exception and he's not even ugly, just Distinctive in a
| way that's easily matched by Sia and personally I'd say both
| Gaga and Eilish.
|
| It just looks like pretty people are in general a lot more
| successful, which is unsurprising. The attempt to apply a
| sexist lens to it is a bit tortured.
| NaomiLehman wrote:
| i absolutely don't agree that they are in the same ballpark
| of being photogenic when we look at top 50 and estimate
| averages - this could probably be easy to measure with a
| jailbroken LLM.
|
| the difference is even bigger when I look at agreeability -
| this is more difficult to measure.
| k__ wrote:
| Who in the top 20 wouldn't you consider conventionally
| attractive?
| brabel wrote:
| But I was talking about is that she believes there's a hate
| of women, that they must fit some preconceived image... and
| what I see in real pop stars is the total opposite . They
| seem to do all they can to look scandalous and shocking. They
| mostly go for the hot female image but some don't. Being good
| looking yes is an expectation but how does that have anything
| to do with hating women and patriarchy??
| low_tech_love wrote:
| I also think she missed the point there. Normal people bust
| their asses on a daily basis to do a good job at whatever it is
| they do, with more often than not, under rewarding compensation
| and a lot of problems to overcome. I think it is normal for
| average people to think that it isn't fair that some of these
| people are getting so much overwhelmingly good stuff for things
| that can be reasonably seen as futile.
| imtringued wrote:
| It's the other way around. Female privilege is invisible, so
| you can easily claim the opposite.
|
| Female privilege can be used to bend men to a woman's will.
| It's kind of like a resource curse like oil exports. You can
| cheaply import anything and pay for it by exporting oil. This
| means your country doesn't have to develop independent
| production, which makes it dependent on the imports of another
| country. When things are going wrong internally, you can always
| point at an external locust of power. The problem is that your
| trade partners are no longer exporting their products to you
| and they obviously know that this will hurt your country. They
| are making a calculated decision against you. You are powerless
| and it's because the other countries have been
| hoarding/accumulating power and are using this power to keep
| you powerless. The classic communist excuse that it's the
| capitalist sanctions that are the problem.
|
| As I said, the problem is a lack of an internal locust of
| control. The externalisation, no matter how convincing, is a
| way to distract from the actual problem. The fact that there
| are gender specific boogiemen doesn't really change anything.
| rsanek wrote:
| > Another thing about being a pop star is that you cannot avoid
| the fact that some people are simply determined to prove that you
| are stupid... subconsciously people still believe there is only
| room for women to be a certain type of way
|
| Is this limited to females or even those in pop? I think any star
| is at risk here. I'd argue male athletes are targets at least as
| often. See: public discourse on Travis Kelce.
| low_tech_love wrote:
| Say what you will about this piece, I didn't detect any AI in it
| and for that I thank Charli. I've been desperately for any
| original thoughts whatever that come out of a human being's brain
| and in that sense it was an interesting read. However the real
| pearl was the link to Lou Reed's interview, what a gem! It got me
| into a rabbit hole of watching Lou Reed making "fun" of obnoxious
| journalists on YouTube and I haven't laughed this much in a long
| time. It also reminded me of this classic one from Iggy Pop:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=78S0yrMLfTU&pp=ygUcaWdneSBwb3A...
|
| Edit: Actually that link is incomplete, this is also important:
| https://youtu.be/YJEvZHN9E6s
| wiz21c wrote:
| I was fortunate enough to be somewhat on television as a
| geek/nerd for 2-3 years. I was not famous, didn't make money out
| of it.
|
| It happened from time to time that people recognized me when at
| the groceries or some other place. I always had found that very
| awkward. These people have an image of you, they know a bit about
| you, they like you but on the other hand you absolutely don't
| know them. I did my best to be welcoming and had genuine interest
| in who they were but the asymetry was very awkward to me.
|
| Also, people close to your friends also know you are "on tv" and
| then you can feel they look at you differently. It's subtle
| (after all, I was just a verrrrrrrrrryy minor figure) but it's
| there.
|
| But what I've learned a lot is that once you see the TV and some
| famous people from the inside, you realize that they are much
| more normal than what you thought. Sure they've got some talent
| you sure don't have, but for the rest they're human: some are
| cool, some are not, some funny some boring, etc.
| Balgair wrote:
| If any 'normal' person wants to experience the smallest titch of
| this, go take your best American accent to someplace _remote_
| (but not in North America or tourist-Europe).
|
| The locals there will try to pin which celebrity you are or if
| they have seen you before on the television.
|
| It's not a 100% thing, maybe a 10% thing, of course.
|
| But the more remote you are, the higher the hit rate.
|
| It's because they know they are remote and off the paths, so they
| think that the only reason that an American is there is because
| they are filming something. Note this doesn't work with French
| speaking areas.
| derangedHorse wrote:
| > I don't view what I do as a 'job' > doing an actual real
| service industry job
|
| I see a lot of other figures in pop culture echo this sentiment.
| The need to downplay the effort involved because the payoff is
| disproportionate to the effort/payoff ratio of most other jobs.
| In a job where mass public perception dictates success I can see
| why she would feel the need to include this, but I hope she
| doesn't truly believe it. A globally recognized chef who gets
| paid millions for their work isn't downplaying his effort because
| of how disproportionately valued it is, so neither should a pop
| star.
|
| > patriarchal society we unfortunately live in has successfully
| brainwashed us all
|
| I'm not totally subscribed to this "patriarchy" narrative. I
| think any "brainwashing" (or establishment of cultural norms) is
| from a mix of figures from both genders alike. I don't think it's
| a symptom of the perceived problem of higher positions mainly
| holding men in power. I do agree with her assessment with there
| being people postured to give an excessive amount of hate to
| women who don't fit their societal expectations vs. men who
| don't, so I'll give her that.
|
| With that said, this was still a good read. I'm not too familiar
| with Charli XCX but I have a lot of respect for her using her
| free time to share her experiences. I hope to see more from her
| in the future.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| One thing I found clever about certain celebrities, like Dolly
| Parton and Guy Fieri, is that their public images are so distinct
| but transient (Dolly Parton has a wig, Guy Fieri looks like Guy
| Fieri) that I imagine if they dressed down like normal people,
| they'd be able to blend in with the public.
| lazarus01 wrote:
| Very weak writing.
|
| There's nothing in there that I couldn't capture with a very
| basic imagination.
|
| While I appreciate how women face misogyny, we have made great
| progress where women are showing better progression than men in
| income and career achievement. I am a father to a young woman and
| feel our social group is full of very successful and inspiring
| women that we all appreciate to be around.
|
| The author does women a disservice, instead of being inspiring
| with her climb to success, she's venting that the world is just
| not good enough.
|
| To become a pop star comes from pure luck and what is marketable
| in the moment. For this case, the observations are more of a
| cliche than anything interesting.
| Cheer2171 wrote:
| I thought her writing was 10x better than your comment, which
| was completely unoriginal, retreads old cultural tropes, and
| added nothing of value.
|
| Of course you father of daughters doesn't think she's a good
| feminist role model for your girls. Thank you, good sir, for
| being an actual feminist. How brave.
|
| Tell me more about what you think would be a service to women?
| Do you have a Substack where I can read your manly wisdom?
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