[HN Gopher] As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows
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As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows
Author : apollinaire
Score : 70 points
Date : 2025-11-12 19:21 UTC (10 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| mitchbob wrote:
| https://archive.ph/pdEL2
| darshanime wrote:
| The longest lasting impact of the novel (personally for me) was
| how it introduced me to the concept of Opium Dens
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had
| no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was
| gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just
| picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book
| full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism.
| But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian
| era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for
| male beauty, than our own. That turned out not to be quite true,
| of course, as demonstrated by what they did to Wilde himself.
|
| But it's still a fantastic novel.
| stevekemp wrote:
| It is a good read, even now.
|
| I read it for the first time in my early 20s, and reason I read
| it was because when I was about 11 years old I saw an old black
| and white movie of it, and I had nightmares for quite some time
| (over the ending/fire).
|
| It wasn't the only film to give me nightmares as a child, but
| it was definitely the first!
|
| For me it is one of those books I re-read every few years,
| along with LotR, Amber chronicles, the Dune series, etc.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| The fates of Wilde and Turing are two big black stains on the
| history of the UK (not the only ones, of course).
|
| Turing even more, as by 1950, the society was much less
| religious overall and there was less reason to keep
| homosexuality illegal.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| I think you meant to say their treatment was two big black
| stains. A bit awkwardly worded implying the men themselves
| were the stains.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Thanks. I fixed that. I am not a native speaker and I
| sometimes fall into such traps, but this I could have seen.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| > society was much less religious overall and there was less
| reason to keep homosexuality illegal.
|
| I'm not actually sure it was an entirely religious thing. It
| seems like it was an amendment tacked onto a bill that would
| protect girls from sexual exploitation by this guy:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re
|
| specifically
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment
|
| The conflation of sex and religion I think its probably a
| mistake in this instance.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I am not really well-versed in British legal history. I was
| under the impression that the original Buggery Act was
| motivated religiously, and that Wilde was prosecuted under
| that Act (maybe amended).
| wolfi1 wrote:
| I always wondered what trait was left on the picture when
| Dorian Gray considered converting to Catholicism
| retrac wrote:
| > But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the
| Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and
| appreciation for male beauty, than our own.
|
| This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I
| think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the
| homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic
| love. Because in that time such expressions were often
| permissible.
|
| I've seen the theory phrased a few ways but here's one take. In
| sufficiently homophobic societies, the possibility that a man
| doing something we would perceive as homoerotic, is himself
| gay, is close to zero. Because no one would ever risk exposure.
| And so expression of non-sexual intimacies we would see as gay
| are not perceived as gay in those societies.
|
| We see this shift in the recent literary tendency to "queer"
| platonic male relationships in historical literature. To use a
| slightly absurd example: are Sam and Frodo in the Lord of the
| Rings gay? It has been argued by some. (Put "Are Sam and Frodo"
| into Google and see what pops up on autocomplete to finish that
| question!)
|
| I think it is the romantic (in the 19th century Wagnerian
| sense) and conservative worldview of Tolkien in action: the
| nature of the relationship is that of comrades-in-arms. And in
| that context certain intimacies that would be intolerable are
| otherwise not. That is why Sam says that he loves Frodo.
|
| Another example the modern audience often just can't get over,
| is men who used to sleep together. In the most literal sense of
| the word. Platonic bed mates. Some guys did this even when
| other beds were available. Maybe they were cold. But maybe they
| were just lonely? if some women put on pajamas and have a
| movie-watching slumber party they probably won't get called
| lesbians. But men must tread carefully today at least in
| America for that kind of thing. There is just some mental block
| in our society with that kind of intimacy between two men. But
| perhaps not back then. (Or maybe Abraham Lincoln really was
| gay. But I kind of doubt it.)
|
| Wilde is right on the transition point when it started to be
| conceivable that a man is actually a self-identifying
| homosexual and that male intimacy might therefore be coded as
| homosexual. He played with that ambiguity. And in his case, got
| burned.
| Insanity wrote:
| Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had
| the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the
| hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it
| was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films
| were made.
| drivebyhooting wrote:
| Sam is loyal and devoted to Frodo, but there is zero
| romance between them. I don't see how one could read that
| in the book. Sam even marries Rosy and has umpteen
| children.
|
| Is Gollum gay for Frodo because he caressed his knees while
| on the path of Cirith Ungol?
| gooseus wrote:
| I can't help but agree having read the books umpteenth
| times... even in retrospect I find it more likely that
| Tolkien added Rosy into the narrative simply to make it
| clear that Sam was a heterosexual and that Frodo was
| merely an asexual eccentric like Bilbo.
|
| I don't think there is any problem or harm in reading
| them as bi or gay, but I'd love to read a better case for
| Tolkien having written them with that intention. Am I
| forgetting any character(s) from The Silmarillion or
| Unfinished Tales that were more obviously coded as gay or
| any other statements by Tolkien that would point to this
| as even a remote possibility?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Sam does not look gay to me. He is awkward around girls,
| but seems to be attracted to them.
|
| Both Bilbo and Frodo are a bit gay-ish indeed, or possibly
| asexual (neither ever marries or even has any romantic
| interest, both seem to be artsy), but Tolkien was born in
| pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay
| were a part of the usual society.
| s1mplicissimus wrote:
| > but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime
| bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual
| society
|
| Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly
| weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing
| to see here ;)
|
| IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good
| friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam
| is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always
| Frodo who needs Sam to progress or save him - but Frodo's
| story doesn't have him do big efforts to accommodate/help
| Sam. It always felt a bit like a count to peasant
| relationship to me in this regard (as probably Tolkien
| would have idolized it). Definitely not one on equal
| footing.
|
| Another dimension/reading I find exciting is that Sam &
| Frodo are a split up character, where Sam represents the
| physical part of existence and Frodo represents the
| mental/psychological part. Even above the regular
| "hobbits obsessed with food", Sam brings the seasoning
| packet to make roast chicken to Mordor which cracks Frodo
| up, does the cooking along the way. Frodo's journey on
| the other hand is marked by "suffering from inside" - the
| witch kings spiritual wound and the pull of the ring.
| Frodo's intellect affords him shrewdness and planning,
| but in the end Sam has to carry him to the forge, because
| Frodo is too weighed down by his inner life. Does make
| for a nice metaphor I guess.
|
| Anyway that was some thoughts of mine
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and
| Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-
| bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo.
|
| The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind,
| more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in
| the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the
| Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything
| quite like that, and Sam only for a short time.
|
| I don't think Frodo is in any condition to help others
| much. He has enough problems rising up every morning and
| walking again.
|
| BTW I just love nerding out on HN.
| s1mplicissimus wrote:
| ah nice to see a fellow appreciator, hi!
|
| Sooo what do you think then is the burden of the ring?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I think at its worst, it might be something like a
| combination of cancer and schizophrenia (or withdrawal
| symptoms). Weakness, unability to rest, intensely
| intruding mad thoughts, despair.
| Insanity wrote:
| Same, that's what HN is for! Glad my question sparked an
| interesting discussion about LoTR haha.
| mr_toad wrote:
| > where Sam represents the physical part of existence and
| Frodo represents the mental/psychological part.
|
| English classism in a nutshell.
| s1mplicissimus wrote:
| I did mean to point to that, but in the other paragraph
| xD
| xandrius wrote:
| Kind of proves the point. They show absolutely nothing that
| would make them gay, it's just, as the OP said, our society
| has rejected any male-male physical interaction which isn't
| a fistbump, a high-five and maybe a short hug.
|
| Look at older military photos from 1800s-1900s and you see
| comrades holding hands for instance.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| I think the other thing that's not immediately obvious to
| modern readers is that men sleeping together _could_ be seen
| as something childish. Boys at boarding school had
| "attachments" that they were expected to grow out of and
| marry a nice young woman.
|
| Its probably better to see it like cocaine use. In posh
| circles everyone does it, and so long as you don't show it to
| the unwashed public, you're probably fine. However if you are
| caught by the police, or someone wants to take revenge, then
| letting slip that you're on coke is enough to get you
| ostracised.
|
| Moreover, if poor people do it, then its a moral failing (see
| crack addict)
| amiga386 wrote:
| You should read the _Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde_ as
| a follow up.
|
| The original inspiration for it was Stevenson hearing about
| respectable pillar of Edinburgh society, William Brodie, being
| caught as a burglar, stealing to repay his gambling debts. Your
| social capital in Victorian Britain was based around your
| _outward_ appearance of respectability and had to be defended
| to the utmost. If you were outed as a criminal, or as a
| homosexual, you 'd lose every shred of privilege and position.
|
| With that in mind, you can imagine the duality of Dr Jekyll
| trying to maintain his good standing while licentious Mr Hyde
| wants to engage in hijinks?
|
| One such reading of the novella: https://sci-
| hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Dorian Gray jokes never get old...
| rkomorn wrote:
| Except for that one written on the last page of the notebook
| that definitely did not age well.
| some_guy_in_ca wrote:
| I just recently listened to this from Audible. I was a grand
| novel. The dialogue was amazing.
| stavros wrote:
| Which version did you listen to?
| jorl17 wrote:
| I'd place it 5th in my overall favorite books list. It is
| certainly one which has influenced me deeply and continues to do
| so, ever since I first read it 13 years ago.
| baxtr wrote:
| Now everyone including me wants to know your top 4!
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I concur. Give us your list, GP :-)
| fandorin wrote:
| yes! I'm interested as well!
| __alexs wrote:
| A wonderful play. The production of this with Sarah Snook from
| Succession was absolutely amazing.
| gotaran wrote:
| A bit flawed, but a technical marvel and shows how superhumanly
| virtuosic Snook is.
| zyx321 wrote:
| Uhm, actually, the PICTURE of Dorian Gray ages.
| bloak wrote:
| Apparently there are several, significantly different versions of
| "The picture of Dorian Gray". I'm not sure which one I've read,
| or which one I should read. Any suggestions?
| maebert wrote:
| They're all great, but the 2012 "The Uncensored Picture of
| Dorian Gray" is the closest to the original script before the
| editor cut out things that he deemed... checks notes... "too
| gay".
|
| It restores parts that were cut, and essentially bans chapter 3
| and some other digressions on art history that Wilde added as a
| literary Beard to the footnotes - still there to read, but set
| in context)
|
| It's not a huge different honestly, but I believe Oscar Wilde
| would want you to read that version.
|
| It
| CalChris wrote:
| That's enough of an excuse for me to reread it. Along with
| Room With A View, two books I laughed on every page.
| HPMOR wrote:
| There's a line in the book I quite liked: "All the interesting
| people disappear to San Francisco." Was incredible to me that
| even back then, SF was known for its homosexual culture. Lord
| Henry was remarking on where Basil likely had disappeared, so the
| insinuation was that Basil felt more at home in SF.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| I tried reading it when I was younger, and I couldn't get past
| the first two pages. Hes a wordy motherfuck that Wilde bloke.
|
| However, I did get an audio book version of it, which meant I
| could actually enjoy and finish it.
|
| THe thing that struck me is that yes the painting is a large part
| of the book, but so is food. The sheer amount of self hate that
| was expressed through clothing and food towards the end of the
| book was surprising to me.
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