[HN Gopher] Bluetooth Channel Sounding: The Next Leap in Bluetoo...
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Bluetooth Channel Sounding: The Next Leap in Bluetooth Innovation
Author : JoachimS
Score : 79 points
Date : 2025-11-13 11:58 UTC (6 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.embedded.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.embedded.com)
| avidiax wrote:
| Edit: It seems I'm wrong. Channel sounding requires an encrypted
| connection. It's not something that can be done between a passive
| device and your phone.
|
| It will allow things like secure entry (walk up to a door and it
| opens, be near your car and you can open it), finding your
| devices (lost keys, headphones, remotes, etc.), auto-unlocking
| for your laptop, and more.
|
| --------------
|
| This is a really cool technology that is going to allow
| essentially indoor GPS. Imagine going to a mall, and you open a
| map on your phone, and it immediately knows where you are to
| under 1m error.
| halapro wrote:
| Do you still need "satellites" installed indoors to work?
| Because then you'd have to convince every business that this
| cost has a direct positive effect on their sales.
|
| A lot of brick and mortar stores are based on the assumption
| that a lost customer will buy more things, so I don't see this
| happening.
| rtutz wrote:
| Think about how this information could be used. As a store
| owner you can precisely track movement of customers and
| optimize the shop layout.
|
| BT hardware is also rather affordable.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| You're already tracked like that. I was building solutions
| to do it well over a decade ago. One customer was well
| known for their mouse themed hats. A famous hotel brand in
| a well known casino city used it to track employees
| instead. I no longer do that for obvious ethical reasons.
|
| There may be a rare few legitimate uses for improving the
| accuracy, but it also makes those privacy nightmares worse.
| kenhwang wrote:
| My previous employer already had a product offering that
| could do this for a better part of a decade by
| triangulating with WiFi/BLE and cross referencing with
| surveillance footage. It was deployed in malls and retail
| chains.
|
| It generated interesting information, but not interesting
| enough to be profitable.
|
| We weren't the only ones with this capability either, most
| major retailers had this level of analytics through
| surveillance footage that previously existed for loss
| prevention purposes. Then simply link the data to a rewards
| number or credit card and you got a stable tracking
| identity.
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| > loss prevention
|
| So preventing theft?
| meindnoch wrote:
| No, loss prevention. :)
|
| "Theft" is such a value-loaded, moralizing term. It
| collapses a wide spectrum of socioeconomic realities into
| a single criminalized label, ignoring the structural
| inequities that often shape people's choices. When we say
| "loss prevention", we're deliberately reframing the
| conversation away from individual blame and toward
| systems, environments, and institutional responsibility.
| Loss prevention isn't about vilifying people - it's about
| acknowledging that harm occurs within a broader context.
| It centers the idea that organizations can design safer,
| more equitable spaces that minimize material loss without
| resorting to punitive narratives rooted in classism,
| racism, and centuries-old assumptions about who is
| "dangerous". Calling something "theft" externalizes
| accountability onto the most vulnerable actors; calling
| it "loss" recognizes that institutions have agency, too.
| And preventing that loss focuses on proactive,
| compassionate strategies rather than reactive punishment.
| halapro wrote:
| This message is approved by the Ministry of Peace.
| 9991 wrote:
| I'm dumber for having read that.
| nine_k wrote:
| Poe's Law is strong in this one.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
| BobBagwill wrote:
| La propriete, c'est le vol !
|
| -- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
| luma wrote:
| The industry tends to use the even harder-to-understand
| term "shrink". Not always theft, just any loss of product
| versus what the books say they should have.
| kenhwang wrote:
| Theft is only one cause of loss. Stocking/admin/counting
| mistakes, accidental damage, spoilage, or simply people
| moving stuff around or misplacing items so they're not
| where it's expected all fall under loss.
| luma wrote:
| I've worked with a major retailer on similar backend
| systems and can echo the post above - all of them are
| running these systems and they almost never discuss the
| specifics (until someone like Walmart sues Everseen and
| we get a glimpse behind the curtain from the court
| documents).
|
| If you go to an org's website offering these tools (eg,
| Everseen mentioned above, RetailNext, etc), they don't
| directly advertise the full breadth of their capabilities
| until you have them in a room for a sales pitch. They can
| combine multiple data streams such that an individual can
| be traced throughout the store via cameras, wifi, and
| bluetooth, which gives the retailer an opportunity to
| sell that information. Did a customer pause in front of
| the corn chips but then decide not to buy? Print them out
| a Frito-Lay coupon at checkout and see if you can't get
| them next time, and Frito-Lay will pay you to do that.
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| That's so cursed. I suppose since the source of the money
| here is the manufacturer, this only happens in major
| retailers with large shops?
|
| Do you know if smaller shops in india/asia also make use
| of this?
| luma wrote:
| I have no first hand experience outside of North America
| so I won't speculate. There is a cost of entry so you
| need to be moving enough volume in a market already
| working on razor thin margins. I'd expect that this means
| it's only for the regional/national players here.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And guess what, that shop layout is not going to be
| optimized for the customer's convenience, but for the
| shop's profits. These kind of solutions tend to converge on
| the 'Hotel California' model: you can enter, but you can no
| longer leave.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Indeed, screw IKEA.
| atoav wrote:
| Maybe US IKEA is different from European ones, but there
| are literally arrows on the floor that guide you through
| the whole thing? Follow the arrows and you're out.
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, they don't guide you to the exit, they guide you past
| the collection.
|
| The whole point is that the thing is set up like a very
| long serpentine track so that you 'see everything' rather
| than that you can go to the one thing you want and then
| to the cash register. This is because they - rightly -
| figure that if they can keep you in the store longer and
| expose you to more stuff you might buy more.
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| You can enter the warehouse directly through the register
| area. No one is stopping you.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Oh, that's a neat hack. I will definitely try that next
| time. I have a bad leg (bike accident) and the extra
| walking really pisses me off. I don't need a stick or
| other help but I _do_ economize on unnecessary walking on
| hard surfaces. Thank you. Ikea has killed all viable
| competition here so you can 't really get around them.
| atoav wrote:
| > No, they don't guide you to the exit, they guide you
| past the collection.
|
| I did not claim they guide you to the exit. What I said
| is that you _don 't get lost_ if you stay on the path. A
| scenic route to the exit is still a route to the exit.
|
| Also: if you want to get to an actual exit it is
| mandatory (at least over here) to have clearly visible,
| emergency exit signs so people can get out in case of
| fire.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I am not afraid of getting lost. I'm annoyed at having to
| walk more than strictly necessary on account of a less-
| than-perfect leg.
| spockz wrote:
| Every IKEA around here also has various shortcuts that
| you can take at any time. Even from entrance almost
| directly to the warehouse. These are also indicated. So
| it is a choice whether you want follow the whole route
| for inspiration or not.
| jesperwe wrote:
| I can imageine that. Although not using Channel Sounding, as it
| has a accuracy of +/- 200mm according to TFA. Which is still
| very good, though.
| flowerthoughts wrote:
| I don't follow your reasoning. (+-)200 mm is better accuracy
| than 1000 mm.
| jesperwe wrote:
| 1m? 1mm? Apparently I was seeing double
| vardump wrote:
| In case you're not familiar with the metric system: 1m is
| 1000mm. In other words, one millimeter is one thousandth
| of a meter.
| srcmax wrote:
| New devices, such as Pixel 10 already support channel sounding.
| Basically it's alternative to UWB. One phone sends signals on
| multiple frequencies, another receives them. Obviously devices
| should be connected via BT. Also tracking people already works
| with BT/WiFi RSSI (signal strength). Channel Sounding works
| better because it works even when the signal line of sight is
| obstructed, for ex. headphones lost under pillow.
| styanax wrote:
| How do they compare in actual use? I have a Pixel 6a connected
| to $40USD bone conducting headphones and the range and punch-
| through are incredible; the phone is sitting in the living room
| playing music and I can _almost_ make it to my mailbox at the
| end of the block (about 3 houses away) before it starts to
| degrade or cut out.
|
| Do these alternatives compare with just how well UWB serves
| regular, normal daily activity like this? Because to me, what I
| have is absolutely excellent in use with daily routine.
| olirex99 wrote:
| I am pursuing a PhD in indoor localization, and UWB is still far
| superior. That is the reason why major phone companies still
| include a UWB chip and are not switching to BLE 6.0.
|
| I have compared them, and because BLE is a narrowband signal, it
| is highly susceptible to Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) conditions
| compared to UWB.
|
| I also attended a prototype presentation by a large European
| silicon company. I noticed that even in their demo, BLE did not
| achieve 30 cm accuracy, but rather hovered around 1 m.
|
| I have only tested PBR and RTT ranging with a simple Kalman
| Filter, so maybe someone has found a clever combination of these
| data sources (I hope).
| pwarner wrote:
| Is there a good list of cars that support UWB? Seems like a
| requirement for my next car...
| olirex99 wrote:
| All the new car have the keyless option and use UWB to open
| and close.
| skzv wrote:
| Cool, I worked on indoor localization, particularly with RTT,
| at Google for many years :)
| Onavo wrote:
| Are there any good alternatives? We need something to prevent
| replay attacks on app based phone far keys..
| throwaway1627 wrote:
| What an unfortunate name.
|
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sounding
| > Sounding is the act of inserting a metal rod into your urethra.
| toxik wrote:
| Sounding in this usage is far, far older than the sounding
| you're talking about.
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(page generated 2025-11-19 23:02 UTC)