[HN Gopher] The surprising benefits of giving up
___________________________________________________________________
The surprising benefits of giving up
Author : jnord
Score : 197 points
Date : 2025-11-18 04:44 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nautil.us)
(TXT) w3m dump (nautil.us)
| begueradj wrote:
| >According to a review of more than 230 studies recently
| published in the journal Nature Human Behaviour, adjusting our
| goals in response to stress or challenges, rather than grinding
| on, is often "a more appropriate and beneficial response."
|
| That is also what people who persist on the path of their goal
| do. And that's not giving up, as the title claims.
| puppycodes wrote:
| I think a better way to put this is the acknowledgement that
| resources are limited rather than giving up.
| zduoduo wrote:
| approval
| hekkle wrote:
| > The scientists also analyzed the impacts of these decisions.
| Giving up on goals was significantly linked to reduced stress,
| anxiety, and depression, for instance.
|
| This seems to be a correlation, not a causation. There are many
| studies that show Stress, Anxiety, and Depression are prevalent
| in people who are smarter than the average, due to factors such
| as heightened self-expectations, rumination on negative
| experiences, and awareness of negative aspects of the world.
|
| People who are smarter are more driven, which is how they develop
| their cognitive abilities. Giving up doesn't cause less anxiety,
| these people have less anxiety because they don't have the
| faculty to be affected by it.
| danielmarkbruce wrote:
| This is a clever insight. You are doomed to a life of anxiety.
| wiseowise wrote:
| > People who are smarter are more driven, which is how they
| develop their cognitive abilities. Giving up doesn't cause less
| anxiety, these people have less anxiety because they don't have
| the faculty to be affected by it.
|
| Ah, the old "I'm anxious therefore I'm smart, they're not
| therefore they're stupid". Lol, get your head out of your ass.
| hekkle wrote:
| I never said I was anxious, assuming just makes an ass out of
| you. Go back to Reddit troll.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| I just read an article on this subject last week and thought this
| was going to be a republication on a nautilus but it's different
| authors and different stories -
| https://www.newscientist.com/article/2501420-why-giving-up-o...
|
| The nautilus story uses one meta study and the New Scientist has
| many individual citations with some quotes from scientists.
| rramadass wrote:
| Philosophy has had an answer all along;
|
| _One should become aware of one's deluded notion in which one
| thinks that 'I belong to these objects of the world and my life
| depends upon them. I cannot live without them and they cannot
| exist without me, either.' Then by profound enquiry, one
| contemplates 'I do not belong to these objects, nor do these
| objects belong to me'. Thus abandoning the ego-sense through
| intense contemplation, one should playfully engage oneself in the
| actions that happen naturally, but with the heart and mind ever
| cool and tranquil. Such an abandonment of the ego-sense and the
| conditioning is known as the contemplative egolessness._
|
| -- from "Vasistha's Yoga" translated by Swami Venkatesananda.
| zkmon wrote:
| Such ego and delusions are results of mind wandering outside of
| the context provided by the instincts and senses.
| rramadass wrote:
| No.
|
| The ego-sense is the Mind in its capacity/function as self-
| identification. Its is called _Ahamkara_
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahamkara) and is an aspect of
| _Antahkarana_ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antahkarana. It
| is fully capable of creating delusions from external (i.e.
| objects through the senses) or internal (i.e. objects through
| its own imagination) means.
| zkmon wrote:
| Looking at biological evolution, purpose and functioning of
| instincts and senses is more useful and more grounded than
| abstract philosophies, in my opinion. We don't need to
| analyze mind and thoughts in a manner that is fully
| disconnected from biology.
|
| Mind is just an orchestrator of responses by processing of
| sensory information, memories and instincts. Actually, such
| processing and response can happen throughout the body as
| well to a limited extent.
| samdung wrote:
| 'When' does one give up? That is the question that needs an
| answer.
| zkmon wrote:
| Constantly assess the cost and benefit for future scenarios.
| Give up when the cost goes too high and beats your risk
| appetite.
| sayamqazi wrote:
| ask chatGPT
| dyauspitr wrote:
| When you have enough money so you don't have to work anymore.
| For most that's never unfortunately.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| In SW development the bar is constantly being set extra high
| expecting people to meet it constantly if they meet it once.
| Maybe some random unachievable internal date for some pointless
| goal for a back slap and a feel good headpat. Yeah, no. You
| will fail sooner or later as the denizens of management and PM-
| topia expect that is the norm. Better to relax and let every
| date be missed and tell them life's a bitch.
| bob1029 wrote:
| I don't believe in "giving up" but I do believe in picking
| battles and leveraging higher order effects. A short term retreat
| to win a long term war. Walking away can be the best strategic
| option.
|
| For example, if you find yourself in strong disagreement with the
| current leadership at your company, instead of having cataclysmic
| battles every day on Teams, you could simply hand in your
| resignation letter and walk away while the boat is still afloat.
| Keep your chin up and firmly depart with grace.
|
| Short term, this looks exactly like giving up. Long term, it can
| surface the foundation of your arguments and force those higher
| up the chain (investors) to potentially come back to you and your
| arguments in the future (assuming you were actually right).
|
| I'm living this one right now. It's surreal watching people who
| attempted to game of thrones me ~every day get perp walked. I
| wouldn't say I enjoy this because it would have been better if we
| had figured out a way to work together. It definitely wasn't a
| skill problem on anyone's part.
|
| It is often best to use your opponent's momentum and energy
| against them. If the problem you are dealing with is other
| people, giving up is a reasonable default. If the problem is some
| challenging machine learning algorithm or other personal project
| I think you should be more cautious about walking away. This can
| turn into a bad habit.
|
| The fewer chefs you have in the kitchen, the easier it is to
| assign blame and figure out what the real issues are. You can
| become part of that refining process if you have the
| contingencies to endure this job market.
| wiseowise wrote:
| That's still giving up. Just a fancy way of saying it. There's
| nothing wrong with giving up.
| zkmon wrote:
| Modern upbringing of children is full of nonsense forced by
| business and political goals. Rhymes that go "rain, rain go away"
| etc. Values that prioritize and reward sales skills, TV shows
| that show telling lies and pretending is acceptable and fun,
| weirdness is desirable etc. Importance of presentation over core
| content and so on.
|
| We trained our mind to ignore and forget all animal instincts,
| body signals and wisdom acquired through ages.
|
| Of course, ancient battle wisdom from the East tells you how to
| approach issues - saama, daana, bhedha, danda - that is - make
| friends, negotiate, divide and rule, use force. At any point, if
| things look infeasible, retreat and avoid. Pure common sense.
| zwnow wrote:
| Social media established a hustle culture in young men, cost of
| living forces people to work without taking vacation. The
| modern trend is 72 hour weeks in Silicon Valley corporations.
| Houses are speculation objects rather than affordable homes for
| families. In this society you have to teach children early on
| about how money works and how to keep jobs or you'll find them
| in a vicious cycle of trying to afford life. Giving up simply
| is not an option for many people anymore.
| mk89 wrote:
| > In this society you have to teach children early on about
| how money works
|
| In this society? When and where was it ever different?
|
| First lesson of life should be "you work to buy your bread"
| followed by "nobody will ever give you something for free".
| zwnow wrote:
| First lesson of life should be to show empathy towards
| other living beings.
|
| If the first lesson in life is "you work to buy your bread"
| and "nobody will ever give you something for free" you'll
| end up in a world filled with egoistical maniacs. Which
| unfortunately is where we are at the moment.
|
| Your second lesson is not even true considering I'd have
| unconditional love for my children/wife. Altruistic love in
| the form of give for the sake of giving, not give for the
| sake of receiving.
|
| People forget that we are strong together. Working together
| is actually the only way humanity got where its at until
| some maniacs invented slavery.
| lazide wrote:
| In a world full of (as noted) egotistical maniacs, is not
| what you are preaching surefire suicide?
|
| Notably, neurotypicals generally fundamentally know this
| and even priests will throw abusive assholes out of
| church while still preaching peace, love and tolerance -
| without blinking at the apparent hypocrisy.
|
| Or, as the case may be sometimes, initiating religious
| wars.
|
| It seems like neurodivergents are the ones who get hung
| up on the literalness.
|
| All life requires a degree of self defense/an immune
| system, or it dies.
|
| And one could argue that the big reason we don't have
| slavery anymore (by and large) is because of
| mechanization.
|
| There were plenty of preachers in the US South (and
| plenty of religious figures _everywhere_ in history) that
| preached the righteousness of slavery. While also
| preaching peace and love. And they put up quite a fight!
|
| It was not an easy thing winning the Civil war, and
| plenty of wars were won on the back of slaves, at least
| in antiquity.
|
| The Spartans weren't feared because of their egalitarian
| and humanistic ethos, that's for sure.
| zwnow wrote:
| All life requires a degree of self defense, sure. But
| self defense does not mean running around the world
| screaming "me, me, me!". Bees only thrive because they
| work together. Their hive-self-defense even kills some of
| their own to protect the rest of the hive. They also only
| sting if absolutely necessary (in their view) as doing so
| most likely kills them. Ants work in a similar fashion.
| No ant thinks "I got so much food, I'll store it in my 1
| ant colony all for myself".
|
| Humans for some reason have these traits, being jealous,
| egoistical and whatnot is natural, the difficulty is in
| acknowledging that and to actively work against these
| feelings instead of giving into them. A lot of humans
| also have the wrong perception of strength. They see the
| rich as the strong and the poor as the weak, but I dont
| want to get too deep into that.
|
| This conversation reached pretty philosophical levels and
| I can admit that its unrealistic to expect altruism from
| each and everyone, especially when their basic needs
| aren't met.
|
| Would still be cool if rich people could share a little
| more though, as in my view it should be impossible to be
| rich while other people starve... Especially considering
| rich people make it hard for others getting wealthier
| because it means competition. A lot of people got rich in
| highly unethical ways. Everyone should have the chance to
| thrive and afford basic and cultural needs, nobody should
| have to work 70 hour weeks or two jobs just to survive.
| watwut wrote:
| It was not "social media" in an abstract politics neutral
| way. It was conservative right wing grifters who has seen it
| as a way to capitalize on notion of traditional masculinity.
| tzs wrote:
| > Modern upbringing of children is full of nonsense forced by
| business and political goals. Rhymes that go "rain, rain go
| away" etc.
|
| I don't understand what you mean by "rain, rain go away" in the
| context of modern upbringing of children. I know of the nursery
| rhyme with that line, but that's at least 350 years old.
| zkmon wrote:
| I think it makes children to grow up thinking rain is bad. I
| used to walk for miles in cyclone rain, cross rivulets with
| strong water flow - just to attend school. I can't think why
| someone want to raise their children not exposed to rain.
| circlefavshape wrote:
| I don't know anything about cyclone rain, but nobody in
| Ireland needs to be taught that the endless dark grey days
| of winter and their accompanying cold wind-driven rain are
| unpleasant
| iso1631 wrote:
| You are linking a nursery rhyme which is older than the USA
| to "Modern Upbringing".
|
| That's an odd example.
| rrjjww wrote:
| The notion that big business is conspiring to keep children
| from playing in the rain because of... reasons... might be
| my new favorite conspiracy. I'm bought in.
| mk89 wrote:
| > Of course, ancient battle wisdom from the East tells you how
| to approach issues - saama, daana, bhedha, danda - that is -
| make friends, negotiate, divide and rule, use force.
|
| That's probably something you learn in India. In the West
| that'd be Machiavelli (and countless Roman/Greek
| philopsophers/generals, etc), for whoever went to school.
|
| Anyway, all this is somehow unrelated to the article.
|
| The main issue is that people nowadays have somehow
| internalized a weird "alpha male, never give up, don't cry,
| just shut up an resist, impossible is nothing" mindset. The
| issue is that many parents don't want to create "weak"
| grownups, with the side effects of creating potentially sick
| ones, who will grow and will have kids and "won't repeat the
| same mistakes as my parents".
|
| In my experience the smartest and possibly most successful (not
| rich, but successful in terms of satisfied/happy/in a good
| state financially) people are the ones that know when to change
| course. Finding the sweet spot (the "when") is just pure
| talent. This is extremely difficult for a parent to understand:
| when to jump in and tell your kids "it's OK, do something else"
| without shame.
| close04 wrote:
| > people nowadays have somehow internalized a weird "alpha
| male, never give up, don't cry, just shut up an resist
|
| I don't know what counts as "nowadays" but this male image
| has been promoted for a really long time. "Big boys don't
| cry" and "strong men don't take no for an answer" have been a
| thing for centuries. Stoicism was centered around emotional
| self-control more than 2000 years ago.
|
| This survived for so long because we used to live in
| societies that were very patriarchal. So men knew their role
| and it was also at the top of the pyramid, all in a
| precarious equilibrium from a mental health perspective.
|
| What happened nowadays is that society is less patriarchal.
| Men are no longer at the top of the pyramid, they no longer
| have a clearly defined societal role, but they still carry
| some of the old remnants because occasionally that's the
| expected of them and that's still how many boys are educated.
| The modern man is locked into a world where his education and
| emotional toolset are inadequate. They are raised to lock
| their feelings like an "alpha" but no longer have an outlet
| for anything because the alpha role in society started
| evaporating or shifting away from them.
|
| It's a mental health crisis that will overflow sooner or
| later and it won't be good for anyone around it when it
| happens.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > "strong men don't take no for an answer"
|
| This is the exact opposite of what Stoicism teaches. It's
| all about figuring out as early as possible when you're
| aiming for an "impossible goal" and should dismiss that
| goal as something that you really have no control over. As
| for the emotional control part, the real goal is not to let
| your emotions affect your behavior in dysfunctional ways.
| That's why the main focus was not in fact "big boys don't
| cry", it was "big boys don't get angry/freak out/throw
| temper tantrums, EVER". Because that kind of unrestrained
| anger is _really_ bad for you and those around you.
| close04 wrote:
| I wasn't compiling a list list of values that are
| consistent, just values that were historically taught to
| boys/men. There were teachings in that vein for centuries
| and millennia. Some are contradicting ("be a gentleman" /
| "don't take no for an answer"). Bottom line, "never give
| up", "control your emotions", "don't cry" are not a
| "nowadays" thing by any measure.
|
| > That's why the main focus was not in fact "big boys
| don't cry", it was "big boys don't get angry/freak
| out/throw temper tantrums, EVER"
|
| In practical experience "boys don't cry" has been a
| staple of the actual education boys get for centuries. To
| the point that a lot of boys got a smacking for crying.
| Temper tantrums are as natural as crying, a reaction to
| the developing brain. They were considered abnormal and
| "destructive" because that was the limit of our
| understanding in child psychology.
|
| On the other hand getting educated to never "get
| angry/freak out/throw temper tantrums, EVER" is just as
| toxic. Boys and men are asked to bottle up everything and
| this sort of worked, still with a high mental health
| price, in the past when there were outlets for that
| pressure. With those gone we just made the situation
| worse.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| You're right that temper tantrums might be natural and
| excusable from young children and toddlers, but the
| obvious argument would be that people really should know
| better at some point as they develop mentally and are
| able to reflect about the deeper consequences of that
| kind of behavior. This is not advocating for
| systematically bottling up emotions, of course; even the
| ancients were well aware of the difference between
| temporarily restraining a negative emotion in order to
| avert its detrimental effects in the moment, as opposed
| to addressing its root causes (often in terms of
| unfulfilled expectations and desires) through inner self-
| reflection and mental exercises.
| lkuty wrote:
| This reminds me of Henri Laborit's book entitled "Eloge de la
| fuite" (in praise of flight) which states that when faced with
| stress, we can respond with action, flight, or inaction. Unlike
| the other two responses, inaction is toxic to the body. Maybe
| giving up corresponds to flight. I didn't read the article.
| maxidorius wrote:
| "fuite" is french which means to escape, to flee. Flight is
| only in context of planes or flying transportation. As for the
| sense of it, you're right, it's either do something, go away,
| or do nothing.
| TylerE wrote:
| The usage is a bit archaic, but that's another meaning of
| flight.
|
| flight [flahyt]
|
| noun an act or instance of fleeing or running away; hasty
| departure.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I honestly don't know how you define archaic here because
| it's very much a current usage of the word.
| afandian wrote:
| What distinction do you draw between "flight" and "fleeing"?
| To me they are synonyms.
|
| From Cambridge.org:
|
| > (an act or example of) escape, running away, or avoiding
| something: > They lost all their possessions during their
| flight from the invading army.
| maxidorius wrote:
| I was merely making the distinction for those non-english
| natives people like me who tilted their head not getting it
| at first :D
| afandian wrote:
| I think idioms that are synonyms of close concepts must
| be the hardest to learn in a second language. Can you
| trade any French examples?
| lkuty wrote:
| Since my mother tongue is french, I guess I didn't choose the
| proper english word. In the context of an attack we sometimes
| see the "fight or flight" response. But I don't know what is
| the best term to translate "fuite" in this context.
| zahlman wrote:
| "Flight" _is_ used in English to mean "an act of fleeing".
| It's perhaps less common outside of specific idioms ("fight
| or flight" being one of them, yes), but people will
| generally understand you correctly in context. It seems
| from the rest of the comments that GP is _also_ not a
| native English speaker.
| lazide wrote:
| There is a fourth - fawn.
|
| Aka capitulate to, or attempt to befriend/suck up to the
| threat.
|
| It's a pretty common, but particularly reviled response,
| actually. _very_ apparent in some sectors of politics right now
| though.
| Surac wrote:
| I quit my job 2 months ago ago Best thing I have ever done. Only
| now I realize how toxic and unrealistic the projects I have done
| where
| mock-possum wrote:
| Woooooooow good for you.
|
| Must be nice to have quitting money.
|
| I've never once been able to afford being able to quit a job,
| and I'm like, closing in on 40 now.
| randyrand wrote:
| You just need to limit your expenses more.
|
| It's possible to live on $1000/month in the USA if you have a
| shared bedroom, dine-in, and skip medical insurance.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| $1000/mo? Pff, that is luxury. Live on the streets,
| dumpster dive, forage and hunt for food, eat every other
| day, and you can get that down to $0. If you really need
| income you can take up sex work. $1000/mo, imagine!
| Balinares wrote:
| The "just stop eating avocado toast" advice is neither
| helpful nor thoughtful, friend.
| kortilla wrote:
| That's not "just stop eating avocado toast" advice. It's
| advice to cut extremely high expenses.
|
| Avocado toast advice is dumb because it's an expense that
| doesn't move the needle.
| lazide wrote:
| Cutting medical insurance, for example, is a good way to
| end up medically bankrupt and lose anything you've ever
| saved if anything goes wrong. And by the time someone
| hits 40, chances are something has gone wrong.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Medical insurance is a basic necessity. Advising someone to
| skip that is irresponsible and degrading.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| I would only 100% agree if this person had dependents
| (that medically rely upon his benefits).
|
| I live on about twice that in a mid-sized US city. Own my
| car, rent in below-average part of town.
| Balinares wrote:
| I hope you get there. Depriving most workers of the ability
| to step away is, it seems, a purposeful feature. But you can
| get lucky, and I hope you will.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| Similar boat, but I'm finally at the point where I think I
| can just walk out. Just stay on the job hunt and you can get
| there. I went from musician living on the cash in my pocket
| with 4 roommates to $110k in 10 years. You'll have to job
| hop, you'll have to grind some self-learning, but you can do
| it.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I once quit a job because it was toxic. At the time, I was
| saving so I could start a business, but the environment
| became so toxic that I needed to walk out much earlier than
| planned.
|
| My "6 month" runway ended up lasting a lot longer, mostly due
| to the stock market taking off. I ended up living off of
| interest for 18 months. By the time I admitted to myself that
| I wasn't much of an entrepreneur and needed to go work for
| someone else, I hadn't taken too much out of savings. I also
| had straightened out my head quite a bit, so I was able to
| figure out what kind of salaried jobs made me happy. (And
| paid enough for me to live a good life and save.)
|
| I really encourage you to see if there's a way to adjust your
| finances so you can live more cheaply, save, and then live
| off of your interest for a period of time to get your head
| straightened out.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| >By the time I admitted to myself that I wasn't much of an
| entrepreneur and needed to go work for someone else
|
| This took me about two decades and two companies to
| discover, about myself.
|
| Good timing and luck have also given me a much longer
| runway than I ever anticipated having. Mostly just need to
| work for my sanity and health benefits (at this point).
| zahlman wrote:
| > My "6 month" runway ended up lasting a lot longer, mostly
| due to the stock market taking off. I ended up living off
| of interest for 18 months.
|
| I can't think of a period in which markets did _that_ well.
| (And "interest" is a strange term here.) Were you
| leveraged, or did you also just not have expenses as high
| as your original estimate?
| iberator wrote:
| Come back when you gonna be out gf money AND out of job. It's
| delusion to say that being jobless is any beneficial on the
| long run
| mk89 wrote:
| Where is it written "I finally don't have a job, I am so
| free!!!!" ?
| bongodongobob wrote:
| With the energy you're putting out sounds like you might need
| a new job. It's always the people in shitty jobs saying
| things like this. Figure out where the pain points in your
| life are that are making you so bitter and try to fix them.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Why so mad bro?
| MikeNotThePope wrote:
| I've cost myself quite a bit over my lifetime by quitting work
| I disliked for pick-a-reason without a plan to replace the
| income. I wish you the best in your search for a new revenue
| stream.
| android521 wrote:
| They quit their jobs 2 months ago and felt great . But I
| think it would be more accurate if they reflect after two
| years
| wiseowise wrote:
| If they felt great after two months, they'll most likely
| feel amazing in two years.
| MikeNotThePope wrote:
| At one point I ran out of money and ended up homeless.
| Would not recommend.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Did you end up homelessness because you've left toxic job
| and felt great after two months of not working there?
| MikeNotThePope wrote:
| I stopped working and then I ran out of money. For me, a
| toxic job is better than not having a place to live. You
| can learn to cope with toxic (whatever that even means),
| and you can't manifest yourself a place to live.
| wiseowise wrote:
| And they might find a better job and make twice as much
| money while being happier. You never know.
| lazide wrote:
| Sounds like a terrible gamble if you don't know the odds
| - or the odds aren't good?
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Well yeah that's the only downside, running out of money.
| Everything else is paradise. I took a year and a half off
| now and it was probably the best time of my life. I
| travelled extensively, hiked a lot, built a lot of high
| end furniture, spent quality time with my wife and kid,
| took on construction projects (barn, chicken coop,
| running path etc.) around my property, ate delicious home
| cooked meals leisurely, lifted weights, went to
| interesting conferences, concert and shows. Life was
| amazing and it wasn't all that expensive. I can't wait to
| FIRE which should be possible over the next 5 years.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| My goal is to save enough money so that I can stop working
| one day. It should be more or less possible within 15 years.
| I'll be in my forties then.
| alsetmusic wrote:
| Walked away from money and (project) name recognition for no
| commute and no extra hours. Best decision of my life.
| sointeresting wrote:
| I quit my job a little over a year ago and it's been the best
| year of my life. Not sure if I'll ever be able to go back to
| daily stand up meetings.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| I realize now what total bogus nonsense standups are. You get
| asked the same pish everyday and nobody listens to what you
| say. Ten different ways to track things for different
| audiences. I learned to just ignore all instruction given in
| these meetings and when board to talk non-stop to consume
| time and have them quickly move to others. A waste of space.
| Sack all the PMs and interfering managers who depend on them.
| chanux wrote:
| This thread gives me some ease :')
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| About five years, for myself.
|
| >Not sure if I'll ever be able to go back to ... meetings.
|
| It's with the wisdom of age that I now understand why HR
| discriminates against _gaps in employment history_... mostly
| because I don 't know how I could ever be employable, again.
|
| Monk-mode is such a cheap way to exist. Highly recommend it.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I did that once: I was planning to quit to start a business,
| but when I realized the environment at my day job was toxic, I
| quit about 6 months sooner than planned.
| merobin_hood wrote:
| I gave up my well paying full time job to start my own mammoth,
| own intuition. Been 5 months now and mammoth is ready for the
| ride.
| zduoduo wrote:
| It is indeed true that giving up can be the best choice.
| guytv wrote:
| From my own entrepreneurship scars, the real curse is never
| knowing when "enough is enough."
|
| If I'd pushed a little harder, would it have finally broken
| through?
|
| Figma, Airbnb, and the other freak successes only exist because
| they didn't quit.
| randyrand wrote:
| I made $60K since launching a year ago, after 4 years of full
| time development.
|
| I feel delusional that I still want to keep working on it.
|
| I guess we'll see how year 2 post-launch goes.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| People also waste entire decades because they didn't quit.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| You shouldn't be blinded by survivorship bias either. Some of
| the best decisions I've made is quit my startup or company when
| I see the writing on the wall that this is not salvageable by
| my sacrifices
| germandiago wrote:
| Inisisting, trying, experimentation, effort and not giving up
| makes a big difference.
|
| I suspect the reason is because most of the people, at that
| time, have surrendered already.
| zywoo wrote:
| This analysis is interesting, but I think there's a small self-
| reference problem hidden in it: what exactly counts as an
| "impossible goal," and who gets to decide that?
|
| It's obviously true that some people chase almost "fantasy-level"
| ambitions. But for most of us, the reason we keep going is that,
| somewhere in the background, we still believe our goals are
| possible, possible enough to justify the time, effort, and even
| psychological pain. If some external standard comes along and
| declares "this is impossible, you should give up," that can
| reduce stress in the short term, but it may also plant a long-
| term regret that keeps growing with age.
|
| Looking back on my own life, the goals I abandoned for internal
| reasons ("this no longer fits who I am / I don't want to pay this
| price anymore") are the ones I can live with. I learned from
| those failures and even feel a bit stronger because of them. The
| painful ones are the goals I dropped mainly because someone else
| convinced me they were impossible. Those still feel like open
| loops.
|
| So maybe the more useful takeaway isn't "giving up is good," but:
| keep reassessing your goals realistically as you grow. If, after
| a sober look at your skills and constraints, you still feel a
| goal is worth the cost, then commit and try. At least when you're
| old and sitting in a chair somewhere, you'll be less haunted by
| "I never even gave it a shot."
| mk89 wrote:
| I like your advice. It's like setting some metrics on your own
| progress and happiness level.
|
| On the other hand, sometimes without pushing, you won't be able
| to fully enjoy something "later".
|
| Stupid example: learning piano or guitar. Which metrics would
| you use?
|
| In addition, here the issue is also about children, not just
| grownups: when to stop paying for their "xyz" course? And how
| do you teach them when to stop/change?
|
| If we're able to guess that right, I guess we can educate
| children better to have better grownups.
| armada651 wrote:
| > So maybe the more useful takeaway isn't "giving up is good,"
| but: keep reassessing your goals realistically as you grow.
|
| This is ultimately what the article is talking about. It's not
| about giving up on your ultimate goal, it's about giving up on
| your current approach and finding other ways to progress
| towards your goal.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| This is what I got from it. It's pretty much synonymous with
| how I approach things. I wouldn't call it "giving up," rather
| than "reviewing and adapting."
|
| Here's a demotivational poster that comes to mind:
| https://despair.com/cdn/shop/files/stupidity.jpg
| germandiago wrote:
| I think combining being realistic (for the sake of sanity) with
| being ambitious (for the sake of going beyond the average) is a
| good hotspot.
|
| For one, it avoids the psychological traps of frustration if
| you keep it realistic.
|
| The other good thing is you will not sit down complaining
| andnyou will put your time on something that is worth.
|
| You can fail or succeed, but with that mindset I think things
| go, at least, psychologically better.
|
| I am not convinced at all that becoming just comfy and a
| conformist in itself is more healthy.
| jimbokun wrote:
| In tech bro speak this is similar to the idea of the "pivot".
|
| If something isn't working, you can keep ramming into the same
| wall harder or you can try a different approach.
| siva7 wrote:
| This piece is missing something important: Pain of letting go.
| Especially if you're sensitive to pain, you will be sensitive of
| letting go.
| danielmarkbruce wrote:
| That pain disappears really quickly in many cases...
| siva7 wrote:
| True, but it's like with needles for some people. Even if you
| know that pain is just quick and harmless, your brain will
| act like you're in live danger.
| danielmarkbruce wrote:
| i spend a lot of time looking at companies to buy for the company
| I work at. A decent number of them are in situations where they
| aren't doing well and the founders have had a very difficult 10
| or so years and you can see the pain. They should have given up 8
| years ago in most cases.
| fud101 wrote:
| Any study involving so called meta-analyses is not worth reading
| on the basis of some scientific evidence, just call it a hot take
| and leave it at that. It might still be an interesting hot take,
| not to say this is or is not.
| vintermann wrote:
| I used to think David Bazan's "Winners Never Quit" was a little
| over the top, but with some modern "grindset" advocates, I feel
| like it's becoming less so.
|
| Save your applause for the end of the road.
| bhawks wrote:
| The author of the article obviously didn't read the paper.
|
| The paper's finding focuses on goal adjustment/flexibility being
| a functional response when encountering difficulty meeting a
| goal. Disengagement had correlations with impairment. Which
| probably tracks most people's life experience.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-025-02312-4
|
| | This interpretation aligns with our finding that dispositional
| flex- ibility, rather than more proximal disengagement or
| reengagement, more strongly predicts functioning. Notably, we
| observed a positive association between disengagement and
| impairment. Although this could reflect a 'dark side' of
| disengagement--where letting go of goals offers short-term relief
| but risks longer-term purposelessness and dysfunction11--this
| pattern was not evident in longitudinal or experi- mental
| studies. An alternative explanation is that the association is
| bidirectional, with impairment potentially prompting
| disengagement as a reactive strategy. Given these complexities,
| we advice caution in interpreting this finding and highlight the
| need for further research.
| jamil7 wrote:
| In most trading advice, cutting loses as soon as possible and as
| emotionlessly as possible is emphasised heavily. It's also
| physiologically one of the hardest parts for people to do
| consistently.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| A nice article on the benefits of giving up from a magazine
| promoting religion under the guise of science.
|
| https://www.templeton.org/grant/nautilus-magazine
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton_Foundation
| constantcrying wrote:
| It makes absolutely no sense to do an analysis of such a broad
| subject and then analyze it in such superficial detail. At least
| this article does nothing but give the most vague description of
| what might in general happen.
|
| It is of course obvious that any hard goal requires effort and
| effort is linked with a lot of "bad things". The whole article
| can be reduced to this. Trying requires effort and effort is
| hard.
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| The issue is that we live in an era were a 2-bedroom house is
| already something people can start giving up on. So the threshold
| for whats attainable is getting lower and lower, and soon enough
| just food will be enough.
| kakacik wrote:
| Its only an issue because people don't want to compromise on
| location, aka they want the most convenient place possible
| (because they 'deserve it'?), but half of other folks living
| and working in the area want exactly the same. And it doesn't
| really matter if we talk about SV or some other big enough city
| anywhere else, they all share the same situation.
|
| And commute is unacceptable, for some even 20 mins according to
| same topic being discussed also here ad nausea.
|
| Btw having a _house_ is a luxury basically anywhere in the
| world, not sure why the baseline expectation is that its some
| UN-enforced basic human right. I for example lived, live and
| will live in apartments only which cost less than 50% of
| similarly-sized house and derive life satisfaction other things
| than gardening and constant upkeep of property. Really not
| getting this want-luxury-as-baseline mindset.
| brianmcc wrote:
| No it's more because things have gotten worse. When people's
| parents could get an X-bedroomed house on a single parent's
| income, which they grew up in and developed their sense of
| aspiration and normality, but they cannot do so with joint
| _really high_ incomes, there 's a very tangible sense of
| progress having not just stalled but gone backwards.
| Atreiden wrote:
| Nobody is claiming owning your residence is a basic right.
| We're talking about long term goals that you spend your
| professional life (read also: youth) working diligently
| towards.
|
| If the average person/family cannot work hard, save, and
| purchase their own safe, comfortable, living accommodations,
| the implication is that the landowning class will forever co-
| opt an increasing percentage of the economic surplus for one
| of the most essential goods - shelter. There is only so much
| adequately zoned land, and so much housing on that land.
| Populations, and increasing, and therefore so is demand.
|
| You are absolutely welcome to forego property ownership if
| you like. There are many benefits in terms of flexibility
| (e.g. ability to quickly move somewhere else). But this is
| typically not an economically advantageous move in the long
| term if you're staying rooted in one place. And having dealt
| with toxic, abusive landlords, there is an understated
| element of psychological safety to ownership.
|
| We're not just talking about big cities. We're talking about
| suburbs too, and even more "rural" areas that are still
| within a few hours of a city. Essentially where 90+% of the
| population actually lives.
|
| This is not a first-world-tech-bro complaint. It is a genuine
| economic problem for us that affects the vast majority of
| people who live here, and therefore the country as-a-whole.
|
| People would not have voted for a moronic despot had he not
| been promising what they've all been asking for - a radical
| reshaping of the system that hasn't been working for the vast
| majority. People cannot afford the American dream that they
| were promised, and they are angry about it.
| watwut wrote:
| > We're talking about suburbs too, and even more "rural"
| areas that are still within a few hours of a city.
| Essentially where 90+% of the population actually lives.
|
| Majority lives in urban areas.
| phantasmish wrote:
| All of housing, education, and healthcare have gotten more
| expensive way faster than wages have risen, in the US.
|
| People are upset about it because together those things, plus
| the end of the pension somewhat earlier, mean the death of
| the middle class, the idea of which was a pretty big part of
| American post-war identity.
|
| More economic drag on getting educated, more economic drag on
| becoming a property owner and the security that provides,
| healthcare costs are a drag on accumulating money for younger
| generations and will soak up anything their parents managed
| to accumulate. Middle class = dead.
| watwut wrote:
| Americans have about longest commutes and tolerate the
| longest commutes to work.
|
| Also yes, they want to live where the jobs are. If compromise
| on location means "being unemployed" then most just cant
| afford it.
| JambalayaJimbo wrote:
| My context is Canada; the problem we have here is that there
| is a big divide between people who bought their big homes
| with land 10-20 years ago, and the people in the market right
| now who can only afford apartments. The issue it twofold; (1)
| negative comparison against the landowners even though
| apartment dwellers may have significantly higher incomes /
| education levels, and (2) political divides; the landowners
| staunchly oppose the zoning and transit changes that might
| make life better for apartment dwellers.
|
| Getting used to living in an apartment is a smaller issue in
| my opinion.
| hat_monger wrote:
| > and soon enough just food will be enough.
|
| And then you will be lectured on how prosperous a country it is
| and how big the GDP is, probably by a foreigner lol.
| subpixel wrote:
| In my experience what matters most is understanding your goals,
| or lacking clear goals, what you want and enjoy. It's remarkably
| easy to latch onto goals that seem like great ideas but
| ultimately don't align to your own happiness.
|
| That's not to knock ambition, but to frame it in the most
| practical terms. How will success actually and specifically
| benefit you?
| lisper wrote:
| Ron's second law: the hardest part of getting what you want is
| figuring out what it is.
| jebarker wrote:
| > It's remarkably easy to latch onto goals that seem like great
| ideas but ultimately don't align to your own happiness
|
| I wonder if the whole idea of goals and ambition being able to
| deliver happiness is wrong. Certainly whenever I've set a goal
| and achieve it nothing much changes in how I feel about life
| because I was hoping for too much and so must just find a new
| goal.
| b3ing wrote:
| Seth Godwin has a book about this called "the dip" it's worth a
| read and isn't too long, find it at your local library
| conorcleary wrote:
| Very relevant!
| zahlman wrote:
| > find it at your local library
|
| But what if I would prefer to buy "the dip"?
| circlefavshape wrote:
| I once spent 2 years working on a book about why you should give
| up on your dreams.
|
| Couldn't find anyone interested in publishing it -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| Distilled it down to 1. a 3-min song
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDnpZJI7jKw 2. a 5-min talk
| https://youtu.be/U4ZnfCmTJMY?si=Ac_jVKnR-ARQilLu
| circlefavshape wrote:
| tl;dr
|
| A dream is just a story you have made up, and the main
| character in the story isn't even the real you. Following a
| dream means sacrificing real happiness today trying to manifest
| imaginary happiness for an imaginary character in an imaginary
| future. Engage with your real life instead.
| shevy-java wrote:
| > Newer evidence suggests that ditching tough-to-attain goals >
| can actually be good for us.
|
| > adjusting our goals in response to stress or challenges, rather
| than grinding on, is often "a more appropriate and beneficial
| response."
|
| It depends a lot on the goals. I give up often and quickly. One
| reason is ... lack of time. (And also lack of discipline, but
| lack of time is really one key reason I toss away many things
| these days. You live only once, at the least most of us.)
|
| There is, however had, one interesting study from psychology. I
| forgot the name, but they showed tests with kids as to "if you
| eat this now, you won't get an additional reward, but if you
| won't eat it for an hour, you get more lateron". Now this was not
| the setup, I am just quoting this from memory. The adults left
| the room so only the kid was there and some sweets on the table.
|
| It was quite convincingly shown that the kids with more
| discipline and will-power, aka who refused the sweets in order to
| get more reward lateron, were also more successful on average
| lateron. Or, at the least, avoided some problems such as drug
| addiction and what not. So I think the "benefits of giving up"
| has to be put in context. It depends on what and how you give up.
| I may not give up on A, but then I may not be able to do B,
| because of lack of time, lack of resources and so forth. So these
| are just trade-offs, but discipline and will-power are just about
| almost always really excellent traits to have or train for.
| _kblcuk_ wrote:
| "Marshmallow test":
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experimen...
|
| It was also highlighted (recently?) iirc that it has little to
| do with discipline and will-power, but is surprisingly affected
| whether kids come from wealthy / "good" families (and thus can
| trust grown ups) vs kids coming from poorer / "troubled"
| families (and thus just leap at the opportunity and don't trust
| that they will actually get another marshmallow if they will
| wait).
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| from what I remember of the described study the kids who showed
| more discipline were also the kids who had been conditioned to
| trust adults, the ones that had experienced that adults were
| untrustworthy did not have the discipline.
|
| so not sure if the conclusion that self-discipline is the cause
| of later life success is the moral of the study instead of kids
| with messed up parents have a worse time of it.
| zahlman wrote:
| > "if you eat this now, you won't get an additional reward, but
| if you won't eat it for an hour, you get more lateron"
|
| I know there was just a space missing in "later on", but I
| couldn't help but imagine "lateron" as some sort of placebo
| narcotic....
| isolli wrote:
| It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: "You never finish,
| you give up."
|
| It was said speaking of art, but it could also apply to software
| projects :)
| marcelr wrote:
| by far the most helpful realization i had in the last decade was
| that i have severe limitations, and i have to give up constantly
| until i find the path of least resistance
| chadcmulligan wrote:
| Buddhists call it the middle way -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way
| conorcleary wrote:
| Thank you for extending my valid-excuses list!! /s
| crazygringo wrote:
| This is literally the reason that the emotion of frustration
| exists.
|
| Our brain is aware of when we stop making progress towards a goal
| we care about. The feeling of frustration builds until it becomes
| so strong it essentially forces us to stop.
|
| Then, to get rid of the emotion, we have to step back and
| reassess. And then either see if we should try a different
| approach to the problem, give up on the problem entirely, or
| triple-check that the same course of action is still worth
| pursuing and thus "re-energize" ourselves.
|
| If we never felt frustrated, we'd keep attempting futile goals
| for so much longer. When you feel frustrated, the answer is never
| to just ignore the feeling and try to "power through". It's to
| step back and reassess at the first opportunity.
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| But sometimes you gotta power through it, you just need to plan
| for it in advance, so you might feel frustrated, but know you
| are not mad for not stopping.
| crazygringo wrote:
| If you plan in advance that something will take a particular
| amount of effort, then you're not going to feel frustrated as
| long as it's within that amount of effort. You've already
| decided that the cost-benefit analysis is worth the cost.
|
| You start feeling frustrated when it takes _longer_ than what
| you 've planned for. When it's _not going according to plan_.
| And you need to step back and say, OK now is it _still_ worth
| it...?
|
| Some things just can't be powered through. Frustration helps
| us realize that so that we don't waste more energy on things
| that don't seem accomplishable.
| xeromal wrote:
| It's easy to confuse laziness for frustration though. I think a
| key requirement in your comment is that you're grounded
| emotionally and know what you're feeling when you do. I know
| too many people that give up at the first indication of
| resistance but I'm fairly confident its their laziness.
| UpsideDownRide wrote:
| I feel that's overly easy to label someone else as lazy. Some
| people might be of course, but we dont have insight into
| their inner selves. And so we dont know ehat burdens they are
| carrying and grappling with currently.
|
| What looks like laziness might actually be very prudent
| resource conservation if you know the whole story.
| pcleague wrote:
| It's so difficult to explain this to people who have never
| been burnt out. It adds to the frustration and depression
| when people see you that way and don't recognize how much
| you've been grinding in your day job while working on
| something else or other. It's deeply demoralizing.
| butvacuum wrote:
| And when one gets bunt out on some basic social
| interaction.... You're completely screwed.
| crazygringo wrote:
| The difference is whether it's a goal that is important to
| you.
|
| If you encounter an obstacle and just stop without feeling
| frustrated, then you just didn't care much in the first
| place. That's fine. It's not laziness, it's just not valuing
| that particular outcome much.
|
| Frustration is generally a very easy emotion to identify
| because you tense up, get irritated, have a feeling of
| wanting to shout or swear, growl, etc. Even if you're in a
| professional environment where you can't do those things, you
| feel the impulse to. There's no confusing that feeling with
| laziness.
|
| "Laziness" is generally a value judgment imposed by a third
| party, that you're not doing the thing _they_ value as
| important. An employer might think an employee is "lazy",
| when the employee thinks they're underpaid and chooses not to
| do anything above the bare minimum.
| hobs wrote:
| Disagree strongly, frustration is like the setup before the
| payoff, it's what makes figuring out something "worth" it - the
| more frustration, the bigger the payoff.
| crazygringo wrote:
| That's not what any psychologist would say. This isn't my
| opinion on frustration, this is just the standard
| interpretation under emotional appraisal theory.
|
| Also, it is absolutely _not_ the case that more frustration
| leads to higher payoff. There are tons of cases where
| frustration leads to zero payoff, and where you get complete
| payoff with zero frustration.
|
| Frustration is not the same as hard work. If something takes
| a lot of hard work but progress is constant and clear,
| there's no frustration involved.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Maybe it's how frustration with what things are before can
| make you want to do something to change it?
| crazygringo wrote:
| From a product design or startup perspective, sure --
| identify the sources of frustration in _other people_ can
| help identify potential business opportunities where
| people would pay money in order to alleviate the
| frustration.
|
| But that's very different from the idea that frustration
| is somehow intrinsic to accomplishment at all, for your
| _own_ goals. It 's not.
| bartvk wrote:
| Can you explain something?
|
| I did a lot of iOS development. The layout of elements was
| done with Auto Layout, and I really had the hang of it. It
| was replaced by how SwiftUI does it, and I knew it would
| take me a couple of weeks to get the hang of it.
|
| I often felt what I'd call frustration. Lots of times, I
| knew I could easily express solutions in the old framework.
| But I knew I needed to learn the new one.
|
| Are you saying that's not called frustration?
| crazygringo wrote:
| It really depends on a lot of factors.
|
| It can _definitely_ be frustration, as you keep re-
| assessing whether it 's really worth switching to
| SwiftUI, and getting upset that something isn't as easy
| as it was the previous way, for you. I've definitely
| started switching to a new library and then ultimately
| stopped because it was _too_ frustrating. What I thought
| was going to be a better library for me, wasn 't. Other
| times I've learned a new library and felt mostly delight,
| as I'd discover it was set up in ways that solved all my
| old problems, and I could see how much time it was going
| to save me in the future.
|
| Also, you can feel frustration on a _daily_ scale,
| without feeling frustrated on a larger scale. E.g. you
| know you want to learn SwiftUI, but _today_ you 're
| running into roadblocks with it, and you need to figure
| out whether to step back from it _today_ and come back to
| it tomorrow, refreshed and having slept on it.
|
| If there's anything frustration can be confused with,
| it's often resentment. E.g. when switching to SwiftUI
| doesn't actually help you achieve any goals of your own
| in any direct way, and you feel like Apple is creating
| busywork with some arbitrary deprecation or migration.
|
| Often, you may feel both -- resentful that Apple is
| forcing you to learn something new, and frustration that
| learning the new technology is harder than you'd
| expected, or not providing the expected benefits, and
| therefore possibly not worth it at all, or at least not
| worth it _today_.
| bartvk wrote:
| Small frustration daily versus larger scale achievements
| is what I think happened. Thanks, interesting viewpoints
| to think about.
| speed_spread wrote:
| A certain amount of frustration is expected if you set the
| goals high. But an excess of frustration becomes counter-
| productive and should signal it's time to change strategy. It
| doesn't mean "give up forever" but rather "try getting to
| midpoint first, then reevaluate".
|
| It's surprising how effective being lazy can sometimes be.
| Some tasks that could be brute-forced seem to magically melt
| away if you adopt round about ways and let time pass. It's a
| latency/throughput tradeoff.
| timacles wrote:
| People are missing some nuance here.
|
| 1. Frustration depends entirely on the expectations of the
| outcome of an action. 2. Frustration is a spectrum. 3.
| Frustration is necessary to engage your full focus
|
| If it were on a scale of 1-10. 4 through 8 would be the ideal
| frustration to keep you engaged in a goal. Below 4 and you
| would not be able to engage with the task fully. Above 8 and
| its a signal that either your expectations about the outcome
| are completely wrong or your approach is completely wrong, and
| you need to step back.
|
| Playing your little brother in Street Fighter will never make
| you better at it, until he starts beating you and making you
| annoyed that you are losing, forcing you to concentrate and pay
| attention to the more subtle details of the game.
| Kiboneu wrote:
| Yesterday I spent two hours looking for something that I thought
| I needed. Ten minutes in I thought of an alternative solution
| that wouldn't require the item I was looking for. I wanted to do
| more interesting things, but I still /had/ to find it. I'd
| accidentally end up doing it again when I try to stop. A friend
| who was observing this tricked me into eating something, and then
| I was able to stop.
|
| If I forget a word mid conversation, I spend a lot of time trying
| to remember it. I can google or ask the chat bot, but emotionally
| I want to get there it on my own.
|
| I think that I'm addicted to the feeling I get when I find these
| things or solve a very difficult problem. After reading an
| earlier article about "aha" moments, I wonder if it's the same
| circuit. Maybe there is also a natural predisposition for hunting
| in my brain, which is why food seems to help me get past these
| ... moments.
| rhelz wrote:
| I've worked way, WAY harder on my failures than I did on my
| successes. My biggest failures always came from holding on to
| long.
| _phnd_ wrote:
| was gonna read this, but realised I didn't have to:D
| bradlys wrote:
| > But letting go and--crucially--reengaging with new goals, was
| found to restore purpose and well-being.
|
| Seems everyone here is kinda missing the point. It looks to be
| less about giving up and more about engaging with new goals. You
| find X goal is too hard to achieve and give up _but also_ decide
| to pursue Y goal that is more achievable (and still has some
| fulfillment to it).
|
| I get that but doesn't seem anything too radical... If I have
| impossible to achieve goals then I'd naturally be upset. Spending
| time on goals I feel I can accomplish is almost always going to
| be more fulfilling than doing ones that feel impossible.
| ge96 wrote:
| I'm not sure if this falls under the same vein but in 2016 I just
| decided to stop paying my bills and I didn't have a job. I was
| just "free". I mean my life was imploding (and it did eg. 350s
| credit score/getting sued by debt collectors) but man I felt so
| free that time. I didn't have to get up/sleep at any particular
| time or be anywhere. I long to get back to that state (although
| with money saved/invested). And the goal isn't to do nothing but
| not to be forced to do anything.
|
| I'd feel the same when between employment like in 2023 the tech
| industry tanked so I could not get hired for a year (there were
| 6mo contracts which I did not accept). Before I decided to eat it
| and work at a factory, I was just watching TV/enjoying a couple
| months off (I had to sell all my possessions at a loss to get
| by). Eventually at the end of 2024 I did accept a 6mo contract
| that is now going beyond a year.
|
| The thing I didn't realize is the 6mo contract while short pays
| double a factory wage so it's like being employed for a year.
| marcelr wrote:
| giving up is a good tactic to see if an idea is any good
|
| good ideas are very hard to give up on
|
| go all the way there & imagine your life without this goal, and
| accept it
|
| if it forces its way back into your life multiple times, it might
| be a good idea
|
| wait for the conditions to arise where it becomes a possibility
| and execute
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