[HN Gopher] My stages of learning to be a socially normal person
___________________________________________________________________
My stages of learning to be a socially normal person
Author : eatitraw
Score : 225 points
Date : 2025-11-15 13:24 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (sashachapin.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sashachapin.substack.com)
| rogual wrote:
| I don't have much to add to this right now other than to say this
| is really fantastic writing. I don't normally enjoy "my journey"
| kind of blog posts, but this one feels full of valuable insights,
| and I'm grateful to the author for sharing. It's also just nice
| to read something written by a skilled writer.
| fgonzag wrote:
| Because unlike the other my journey posts, this one is sharing
| acquired knowledge and framing it through his (in this instance
| relatable since it explains the reasons) experience.
|
| Other my journey posts are look at me with only enough subject
| matter to disguise it.
|
| This post is about sharing knowledge, the others are about
| sharing experiences.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I wish I had the drive to do as much work as the author has.
| Instead I will live more or less where I am now, stably in social
| mediocrity, perpetually somewhat impedance mismatched with the
| people around me.
| fragmede wrote:
| The problem with accounts of life like the author is that it
| sums up a whole hell of a lot of time into a nice short
| Saturday morning read. In this case, it sounds like it spans
| multiple decades. It sounds like you feel socially awkward. You
| _really_ don 't think you can do something about that in thirty
| years? In November of 2055, you expect you'll be the same bag
| of awkward you are today? 1,500 weeks or so from now, you don't
| think you can leave the house or go somewhere multiplayer
| online to meet up with me people and make mistakes until
| there's a close enough impedance match that they signal (you)
| isn't too attenuated or overpowered? This weekend's not over
| yet, get out there!
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Thanks for the encouragement. I wrote my comment while a bit
| hungover from a dinner party :) In general I'm OK with how I
| interact with people.
|
| I think we're all a bit impedance mismatched. The author's
| experience of having instant intimacy I think is a result of
| what happens when you spend the time to become completely
| attuned to other people. He found drawbacks to that skill.
|
| What I really meant is that I don't know if I want that level
| of interpersonal skill. I'm actually kind of happy bumbling
| about socially, making jokes that don't quite land,
| alternating taking up too much space with not taking up
| enough.
|
| The older I get, the less I desire perfection and power in
| all domains. I look forward to being a bit of an oaf.
| jimbokun wrote:
| If you are routinely getting invited to dinner parties and
| drinking and conversing with good friends, your social
| interaction level is probably just fine.
| harimau777 wrote:
| The problem as I see it is that, while I certainly could have
| that growth by 2055, by that point it wouldn't matter. E.g.
| if you want to increase your social ability in order to have
| a family or a satisfying job, in 30 years it will be much too
| late for that.
| marstall wrote:
| really identify. especially with the early yearning to connect
| and not having the skills. Learned sooo much over the years by
| being brutally rejected and eventually taking stock of what
| happened and extracting a rule or two. but then, yeah, next
| phase, rules don't matter (except when they do) and change moment
| to moment anyway.
|
| funny to read this here on hacker news of all places, where I let
| my carefully managed, almost always inhibited, childhood nerd
| self fly free in the comments.
|
| OP has definitely gone beyond me in many ways, with his talk
| about embodiment, and being able to be so empathic that he has
| elicited tears of gratitude. Enviable.
| robotnikman wrote:
| I felt the same way when I was in University and High School.
| In fact I ended up focusing on it so much at the time that my
| grades really suffered, and I feel like I could have ended up
| at a better University and career if I had focused more on my
| grades and learning.
|
| Either way, I did learn my lesson, and I'm now much more
| comfortable with myself and not seeking validation or
| connection from others so much.
| jimbokun wrote:
| You may have gotten better grades but doubt you would have
| been more successful professionally, emotionally, or
| romantically.
| fragmede wrote:
| > I was probably the most severely bullied kid at my school.
|
| > I was demonstrating my erudition
|
| Those two things might have been linked. I wasn't there, but I'm
| suspicious.
|
| Fortunately the author learns better by the end of the article,
| but it stuck out to me because LLMs have made people suspicious
| of five dollar words like delve so to use the word erudition in
| this day and age is a choice.
| stavros wrote:
| Well, in the timeline, this was after the author was bullied.
|
| Also, he says:
|
| > In essence, I became an example of obnoxious precocity, a
| heartfelt young wordcel.
|
| So it doesn't sound like disagrees with you either way.
| fragmede wrote:
| It's all in the preamble before the later sections of
| learning and my implicit point was that my social awkwardness
| got better when I stopped trying to show off how smart I am.
| It still comes out occasionally, and I don't try to be
| condescending, so I do really appreciate my close friends
| when they give me feedback when I am.
|
| My other point though is that as people using AI to generate
| content take the time to tell ChatGPT that it sounds like
| ChatGPT and to rewrite it to not sound like that, that people
| are going to be suspicious of anything recondite that isn't
| in common parlance. But I'm a believer in xkcd 810, so what
| can I say.
| stavros wrote:
| I know this article wasn't written by an LLM because the
| writing isn't mediocre.
| hcta wrote:
| Trying to show off how smart one is is probably part of the
| motivation behind many interesting comments posted on here,
| and more generally, a big motivation behind a huge number
| of the useful things people do. Doing it in a non-obvious
| way requires additional ingenuity. The cumulative effect of
| people trying to show off how smart they are has
| undoubtedly greatly accelerated the development of our
| species.
| fgonzag wrote:
| The post has just enough minor grammatical imperfections that a
| LLM wouldn't make that I don't for a second believe this copy
| was written by an LLM .
| fragmede wrote:
| "now add some grammatical errors and a couple of spelling
| mistakes so it feels more like it was written by a human"
| ZpJuUuNaQ5 wrote:
| Appreciate the writing and the author's fortitude in achieving
| their goals. While I never had friends, neither online nor in
| person, I cannot identify with this at all - it reads like a
| strange, obsessive seeking of external validation which I have
| never felt myself. Maybe I am just disinterested in people in
| general.
| kepeko wrote:
| That's interesting. People are really different. I had my own
| stages to being still not socially normal person. I always
| wanted friends, sometimes had some, sometimes felt lonely. In
| case you happen to read this, did you not have friends in
| childhood but didn't feel bad about it?
| boogieknite wrote:
| "hey call you when they need something
|
| Trees for the blunt, the g's for the front
|
| I found a way to get piece of mind for years
|
| And left the hell alone, turn a deaf ear to the cellular phone
|
| Send me a letter, or better, we could see each other in real
| life
|
| Just so you could feel me like a steel knife
|
| At least so you could see the white of they eyes
|
| Bright with surprise, once they finish spitting lies
|
| Associates, is your boys, your girls, ______s, _____s, homies
|
| Close, but really don't know me
|
| Mom, dad, comrade, peeps, brothers, sisters, duns, dunnies
|
| Some come around when they need some money
|
| Others make us laugh like the Sunday funnies
|
| Fam be around whether you paid or bummy
|
| You could either ignore this advice, or take it from me
|
| Be too nice and people take you for a dummy
|
| So nowadays he ain't so friendly"
|
| - _Deep Friend Frenz_ DOOM
|
| i can sort of relate. ive been told by my family that i dont
| like people much. im also confident in conversation and social
| situations. i think the latter is true because i feel no
| pressure to perform and naturally seek novelty to entertain
| myself
| legerdemain wrote:
| I eat at Chinese restaurants where my waiter is a QR code. Please
| pour olive oil in my lap, hold my hands, and tell me I'm special.
| mierz00 wrote:
| That was a delightful read.
|
| The last part resonates with me, early on I realised that
| listening to people was the easy ticket to connection.
|
| But like the author, a lot of the time I was not emotionally
| available for that connection and I have definitely caused some
| pain and confusion.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I'm "on the spectrum," but I had no idea, until I was in my
| forties. I just assumed (as did most folks), that I was
| "eccentric" (or "weird," for the not inconsiderable number of
| people that didn't like me).
|
| Once I did find out, it wasn't really a huge revelation, as I was
| already well on my way towards learning to compensate.
|
| I know that the popular outlook, is that folks use
| "neurodivergent" diagnoses to excuse (and not address) bad social
| behavior, but that certainly wasn't the case for me. It was just
| another data point.
|
| If we're jerks, then no one will cut us any slack; regardless of
| a diagnosis. It's still incumbent upon us, to address the issue.
|
| In my case, I've spent my entire adult life in an organization
| that forces us to work intimately with others, seek out and
| interact with many types of people, and to look at ourselves, in
| a harsh, realistic manner.
|
| That naturally encouraged me to address my social issues,
| regardless of the causes. Eventually, it also forced me to find
| the cause, but by then, the cure was already under way.
| manmal wrote:
| > the cure was already under way
|
| What's that cure?
| jimbokun wrote:
| > [spending an] entire adult life in an organization that
| forces us to work intimately with others, seek out and
| interact with many types of people, and to look at ourselves,
| in a harsh, realistic manner.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Must be exhausting to have to explicitly learn all that.
| manmal wrote:
| I don't know whether author is on the spectrum, but for many
| people on it, it feels exactly like this.
| bbminner wrote:
| I have been trying to manage other people's feelings and
| reactions for as long as i can remember. That's a self-soothing
| fantasy of sorts. With this mindset, you are naturally drawn to
| people who need such emotional management - a realization that
| you can't actually manage other people's happiness was long and
| painful. These days I am not sure that getting people to open up
| by altering your presentation is a good idea. Maybe we should
| learn to accept that we have no insight into another and just
| observe them with patient curiousity? That we are fundamentally
| alone and isolated and the best you can hope for is a person
| who's values align with yours - and so you feel safe around them?
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| It took me decades to learn to be a socially normal-ish person.
| Some of us are just good at computers and not so good at people.
| But that was in the geekosphere - university, then a tech job.
| Working as a bartender/waiter is certainly jumping in at the deep
| end, and accelerates the process.
| futureshock wrote:
| I really love this piece! I relate to it but it also doesn't
| describe me. I'm far more intuitive than this person, though
| still agree that insights have driven a leveling up of how I
| relate to others. They were different insights, sure but the
| model holds.
|
| Once my spouse and I worked for the same company and attended
| many of the same meetings. The opportunity to pick apart our
| impressions of the subtext really helped me to learn that I
| should listen to my gut, that everything I needed to know about
| how other people were feeling was already in my head and i just
| needed to stop doubting.
|
| Another time I watched a rather ugly and old person have amazing
| romantic success with a young beautiful person. How could it be?
| And I realized that authentic confidence is social gold. I had to
| let go of my insecurities because my flaws were irrelevant in the
| face of authentic, confident self acceptance.
|
| I think everyone has a different journey and different epiphanies
| and it is so enjoyable to hear these experiences put into words.
| quercusa wrote:
| This is one heck of a hook:
|
| > _I was one social notch above children who were so pitiable it
| would be rude to mock them._
| Dilettante_ wrote:
| He's just like me, for real
| SirMaster wrote:
| Why do we need to be normal anyway? Why can't we just be unique?
| BriggyDwiggs42 wrote:
| I never got the sense the author was trying to push people or
| himself into a box, more that he wanted to be able to connect
| to others more easily.
| Dilettante_ wrote:
| This to me reads as someone who has never been "the bad kind of
| unique". Not being normal carries very heavy practical
| repercussions in some cases.
|
| "Just be yourself" is only good advice for people whose 'self'
| is acceptable and well-functioning.
| harimau777 wrote:
| Because not being normal results in being lonely, rejected by
| society, and often unable to keep a decent job. After a
| lifetime of struggling just to achieve fairly pitiful social
| success, I would give a great deal to be able to be normal.
| AuthAuth wrote:
| This sounds like a ton of work to learn and by the end it sounds
| more like a curse than a super power. To be so above people in
| terms of social intelligence must be horrible. It sounds like the
| Author views interactions on a completely different level.
|
| I dont have any offensive social strategy so its hard for me to
| dictate making friends but passively I do quite well by just
| projecting an authentic version of myself.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Blessing and a curse combined. With great power, great
| responsibility, etc. etc.
|
| Like his wife bluntly telling him many women had crushes on him
| and it must be coming from something he was doing.
|
| He could have went different directions with that information.
| And chose the direction that was best for his marriage.
| crazygringo wrote:
| It really depends on what you want to do with your life.
|
| If you want to do engineering, or play music, or be a
| professional chef, you don't need these skills.
|
| If you want to be in sales, or a working actor, or manage a
| high-end restaurant, or be a professional interviewer, then
| these skills become pretty important.
| ajkjk wrote:
| well they're not _normal_
|
| but they are getting to the place that "normal" people end up, I
| think. It seems to be the case that no amount of being in your
| head is a substitute for just not being in your head in the first
| place.
| jimbokun wrote:
| He kind of goes from normal to super-normal, and has to deal
| with how to handle this outlier social competence responsibly.
| ajkjk wrote:
| I'd characterize the entire journey as "neurodivergent"
|
| but there's nothing wrong with that, and there are lots of
| other neurodivergent-ish people (regardless of whether you
| like that word for it, I just mean "outliers", the sort of
| people who have trouble with socializing in a way that most
| people seem to have an easy time with), and many of them
| could stand to benefit from figuring some of the same things
| out
| RealityVoid wrote:
| I think slapping neurodivergent on everything kind of
| dilutes the word. I had some social challenges growing up,
| probably still a weird cookie at times, but def would not
| consider myself neurodivergent, it just feels like a
| different league of difference to the norm.
| ajkjk wrote:
| i sorta agree but also that's basically just what the
| word has come to mean. agree that it's a catchall, but
| also, like, it's definitely not the case that everyone's
| social experiences are anything like the OPs'; theirs
| really is a slightly-autistic-coded category of
| experiences.
| throw4847285 wrote:
| But that's the entire point of the term neurodivergence.
| Rather than categorizing people into specific
| pathologies, you acknowledge that every spectrum of human
| behavior is just that: a spectrum. And that means that
| some people will be outliers on any given axis.
|
| For example, the author of this piece is clearly on the
| autism spectrum. Of course, everybody is on the autism
| spectrum, even people who show no symptoms (they are on
| the left hand side). This person is clearly functional,
| but far from what would be considered neurotypical.
|
| The point of neurodivergence is to better understand the
| various spectra that make up human personality without
| judgement. And by understand people who are outside the
| norm, we can better understand humanity as a whole.
| jimbokun wrote:
| This Ted Talk from his wife is also very interesting:
|
| https://usefulfictions.substack.com/p/behold-my-ted-talk
|
| The topic is agency. Which is a word I hear often used by rarely
| defined or described in detail.
|
| She talks about agency as being the key to going from drug addict
| to CEO of a successful organization, and the specific habits that
| process involved.
| Aurornis wrote:
| I recognized her name when one of her blog posts was trending
| on HN yesterday (from the same submitter as this one,
| actually).
|
| For what it's worth: She has something of a history in the
| professional poker world of being a less than reliable
| narrator. To be fair, the fallout during her time in the poker
| world overlapped with her admitted drug addiction problem.
| However, from what I recall from that era I'd suggest taking
| some of her stories with a grain of salt.
|
| She is very good at storytelling and charming people, though.
| There is probably a lot of value in studying how she delivers
| messages, puts spin on the past, and charms audiences.
| mentat wrote:
| The idea that most people who are doing professional public
| speaking are reliable narrators is a bit quaint. There is a
| lot of room for framing that you have to allow for story
| telling. If you think that all story telling is about
| reliable narration, you're going to have a tough time being
| successful at it or interacting with others who are.
| lll-o-lll wrote:
| Wow, I can't get past the first couple of paragraphs.
|
| > I've tried so hard to learn how to connect with people. It's
| all I ever wanted, for so long.
|
| Are there really people like this? HN is probably the wrong place
| to ask this question, but this is so far outside of my bubble
| that I just cannot relate. Some people feel like this, _for
| real_?
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Yes? I mean...why is it so hard to imagine people having
| difficulties with things you find easy or natural?
| throitallaway wrote:
| Maybe social connection doesn't come easy to them and they
| don't care about it much.
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Ok, sure. But is the disbelief there are other people
| unlike him out there warranted?
| lazide wrote:
| Do you mean wanting to connect with people?
|
| Or not being able to connect with most people?
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| I'm curious what your bubble is.
|
| The peice is relatable to me at least. A great many of the
| lessons were something that I also arrived at through
| deliberate practice. Though the paths we both took are
| radically different, the main ideas are universal and the
| resulting destinations are similar.
|
| I can't list all of the times when someone has shared that they
| didn't mean to "share all that" because it happens often enough
| that it's become countless.
|
| As mentioned elsewhere, it illuminates the spectrum of
| interpersonal and social intelligence where it becomes
| impossible to not notice how some people repeatedly, and
| perhaps even compulsively are their own impediment to personal
| connection.
| harimau777 wrote:
| Yes, I have dedicated most of my life to trying to connect with
| people. In my experience, since I can't connect with people
| none of my other strengths or skills matter.
| thrwwXZTYE wrote:
| You don't usually realize that's why you're the way you are
| until much later.
|
| At first it might feel like "these people don't like me cause
| of how much better I am than them", or "these people don't like
| me, well fuck them, I don't need anybody".
|
| People have all kinds of excuses they tell themselves to feel
| better about the needs they can't satisfy.
| wcfrobert wrote:
| > some people communicate in order to exchange facts, and some
| communicate in order to find connection.
|
| I love this quote. Excellent and very relatable piece.
|
| Social skills can be acquired through practice. But being an
| introvert, I've specifically picked my profession so that I can
| focus on ideas over people. Tinkering and solving problems
| excited me, whereas staying in touch with friends, noticing
| social dynamics, networking, reading people, being good at
| remembering everyone's birthday, etc felt tiring to me and was
| less appealing.
|
| I'm at a place in my career where I'm managing more and doing
| less. It's a weird transition because I've spend a decade
| acquiring technical skill, only to discover soft skills are
| equally if not more important (perhaps increasingly so with AGI)
| .
| ainiriand wrote:
| Unfortunately I communicating ti exchange facts. I have a lot
| of trouble with people and I straining to get better.
| roughly wrote:
| Honestly I think lesson 7 is nobody's normal. All the things the
| author's noted about interacting with other people - see how
| weird and rare it was and how long it took to recognize it? See
| how often it's on your plate to be the one to go zen mode to
| figure out how to dance with someone? The author isn't normal,
| they're now skilled. Before, they weren't normal, because they
| noticed they weren't skilled. Most people don't.
| empressplay wrote:
| I was diagnosed short-bus autistic in elementary school twice.
|
| But I also have Williams Syndrome, which gave me empathy and a
| fondness for people and their stories.
|
| So while I was bullied mercilessly I also had friends. Deep,
| lifelong friends I still have today.
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Wow, this is something else. Reading about Williams Sindrome is
| a bit shocking, you sound like such sweet people, but it seems
| easily preyed upon. I'm curious how you managed the difficult
| parts, did you share your experience anywhere in the internet?
| Excuse my curiosity, but I read about it a while ago and found
| it fascinating. Hope I don't become off rude.
| Aurornis wrote:
| This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal"
| title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this
| piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm,
| manipulate, and game social interactions.
|
| Look at the first two subheadings:
|
| > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person
|
| > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game
|
| The post felt like a rollercoaster between using tricks to charm
| and manipulate, and periods of genuinely trying to learn how to
| be friends with people.
|
| I don't want to disparage the author as this is a personal
| journey piece and I appreciate them sharing it. However this did
| leave me slightly uneasy, almost calling back to earlier days of
| the internet when advice about "social skills" often meant
| reductively thinking about other people, assuming you can mind-
| read them to deconstruct their mindset (the section about
| identifying people who feel underpraised, insecure, nervous,) and
| then leverage that to charm them (referred to as "dancing to the
| music" in this post).
|
| Maybe the takeaway I'd try to give is to read this as an
| interesting peek into someone's mind, but not necessarily great
| advice for anyone else's situation or a healthy way to view
| relationships.
| testing22321 wrote:
| The book is called "how to win friends and _influence_ people",
| after all.
| Aurornis wrote:
| I read that book because it was on so many generic book
| recommendations lists.
|
| It was less sleazy than I expected from the title. It
| actually had a lot of points about being genuine, being a
| good listener, showing respect to other people's opinions,
| admitting when you're wrong, being sincere, and so on. Decent
| advice, really.
|
| A side benefit of reading it is you learn how to spot when
| other people are insincerely trying to use the tricks in the
| book against you. Once you see it, it's hard not to miss.
| dijit wrote:
| Interesting, when I was reading it I got a real sociopathic
| vibe from many of the points and especially how the author
| was talking about them.
|
| If I take a helicopter view of the main themes they make
| sense, but I will admit feeling a little sleazy by reading
| the book.
|
| Reading is subjective however, so I'm glad it didn't make
| you feel this way.
| y-curious wrote:
| Disagree with your reading, respectfully. The majority of
| that book is putting into words the things we like about
| people. It helped me immensely, especially points like
| not criticizing people and thinking it's helpful. I would
| say the title aged terribly and comes off as sociopathic.
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Interesting, I felt the exact opposite. I used to be
| guarded and aggressive and was careful not to give other
| people too much else they might take advantage of me. My
| takeaway from that was... It's fine to be nice and caring
| and helping people out genuinely (I know, a shocker, but
| coming from a more... Uhh.. predatory... World it might
| not be something that crosses your mind.)
| ghurtado wrote:
| > and especially how the author was talking about them.
|
| To really get the best out of this book, you need to
| realize that it was written in 1936.
|
| I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much without
| regularly having this fact top of mind while reading it.
|
| 90 years ago, think about how different the world was
| then. This is before WWII!
| card_zero wrote:
| Mutual preferences is the best idea in the Dale Carnegie
| book. Resolving conflicts by being imaginative enough to
| suggest a win-win option.
| koakuma-chan wrote:
| I read that book and I think it's terrible.
|
| Though the "God has not seen fit to distribute evenly the
| gift of intelligence" was funny and I can relate...
|
| but otherwise, I wouldn't want to live in a society where
| people are secretly hating you but "speaking ill of no man"
| a.k.a. "not criticizing."
|
| I liked the book Winning by Jack Welch more, which
| advocates for "candor," and is essentially the opposite of
| How to Win Friends.
| warkdarrior wrote:
| > I liked the book Winning by Jack Welch more
|
| Jack Welch the sociopath?? Or is there another author
| with that same name?
| lovich wrote:
| The sociopath who destroyed GE in the quest for more
| money is someone I would only take social advice from if
| I was done with humanity and had started to use society
| for entirely selfish ends.
|
| He got away with "candor" because he was at the top and
| anyone who disagreed with him was removed.
|
| Honestly any self help books from people in unique
| positions in society trying to tell the common man how to
| improve always read to me as "my top 10 tips for winning
| the lottery: tip one buy a winning lottery ticket"
| ozim wrote:
| Not criticizing is not for hiding fact you hate someone.
|
| Not criticizing is about - you see someone slipping don't
| call them stupid just move on.
|
| Like if someone makes a typo in comment here on HN, no
| one writes how stupid they are because they might be on
| the phone having autocorrect breaking their typing. You
| don't really show off how smart you are pointing out
| small mistakes.
|
| Hating someone requires that they somehow wronged you.
| There was nothing in the book about being nice for
| someone who is swearing at you or punched you in the
| face.
| ghurtado wrote:
| > Winning by Jack Welch
|
| Why do I get the impression that this book is very much
| in line with Charlie Sheen's personal philosophy?
| thundergolfer wrote:
| The numbers represent progressive stages of growth _away_ from
| socially abnormal behavior. Numbers 1 and 2 represent the
| author 's abnormal behavior. Numbers 5-6 are their later
| stages, where they've achieved competency in social normally
| behavior.
| Aurornis wrote:
| That's a good think to mention, but some of the tricks and
| behaviors I mentioned were in the later points like about
| pretending to be an energy healer. The last point about
| recognizing that these behaviors were not healthy is a good
| one to internalize.
|
| This is consistent with my conclusion above: This post should
| be read as one person's retrospective, not as a guide for
| connecting with people. By the end, he realizes that playing
| social interactions like games and putting on personas that
| target other people's mental state is not healthy.
| BJones12 wrote:
| FWIW, I didn't think the energy healing bit was sleazy
| because I had already been exposed to the musician version
| which prompts a student to instantly sing better by
| pretending that they are <great singer> and just singing
| like them. And it works.
| niam wrote:
| If the limit of someone's behavior winds up making everyone
| happier-off, I don't understand why I ought to care. In that
| sense, calling it "manipulative" seems either inappropriate or
| not very useful.
|
| At least with something like adultery, there's a pretty obvious
| ill consequence of someone finding out what's going on behind
| the scenes. But if I looked behind the curtains of someone like
| OP and found out that the reason they're so charming is because
| they thought about people a bunch: I couldn't be burdened to
| care.
| flatline wrote:
| Through all their gyrations there is still something inherently
| contrived and performative to their interpersonal relationships
| that are far afield from normal, but pass well enough to permit
| connection. This line really resonated with me:
|
| > I was going around dangling the possibility of emotional
| connection indiscriminately, ignoring the fact that it's
| entirely reasonable to interpret this as flirtation.
|
| I am still struggling to understand the way in which many
| people _naturally_ form _casual_ connections with others. In
| this example, a casual connection might be a hookup or a
| makeout session without it turning into a relationship. In
| another case from their article, it may be exchanging some
| personal stories at a house party _without_ it turning into a
| four hour ordeal, or following up and developing a close,
| meaningful friendship. I perceive a lot of confusion here - and
| in my own life - about personal wants and needs being met,
| meeting someone else's needs, where one's personal boundaries
| lie, and how we effectively communicate them - or not.
|
| In consent-forward spaces you get a lot of neurodivergent
| people using explicit verbal negotiation and agreement on
| everything, but this is a consent style that very much may not
| land well for people outside of one of those subcultures.
| Therapy and other trauma-informed modalities carry similar
| problems. It's fine and great to develop subculture norms for
| the people participating in them, but it may not help them
| navigate the rest of the world. And yet, I'm not sure what else
| can be done. My social development mirrors the author's, and
| I'm still unsatisfied with my results, even though I have more
| meaningful connections now than I used to, so this is not all
| without merit. It may just be the best that some people can do.
| sctb wrote:
| > I am still struggling to understand the way in which many
| people naturally form casual connections with others. [...] I
| perceive a lot of confusion here - and in my own life - about
| personal wants and needs being met, meeting someone else's
| needs, where one's personal boundaries lie, and how we
| effectively communicate them - or not.
|
| I think this is a really interesting question. Speaking just
| from my perspective and experience, casual connections can
| form naturally from the basis of having no specific intention
| to connect. You simply give your attention to the other
| person without any preconceived needs or wants. Maybe the
| interaction is brief and superficial, maybe it goes somewhere
| deeper, who knows. But either way you get to experience the
| real, rubber-hits-the-road connection of being present with
| the other.
|
| An important understanding is that it's possible to genuinely
| connect without being entangled in any way.
| aethrum wrote:
| He seems like an odd duck.
| teekert wrote:
| He does, doesn't he. For one it's pretty special to have the
| energy to do all this. Or is it just because it's a summary
| of 20+ years?
|
| Somehow you feel like someone who's socially awkward would
| not just go on a 4 hours super deep conversation, as some
| form of experiment.
|
| I wonder what this person is like irl. I did like this piece.
| etangent wrote:
| > a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm,
| manipulate, and game social interactions.
|
| A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and
| game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious
| about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of
| autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a
| conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved
| unconsciously by most of us. If we prevent such individuals
| from learning all that rarely-written-down stuff consciously
| because it seems "distasteful" to us, then we are
| disadvantaging such individuals socially.
| pseidemann wrote:
| Agreed. It's the playbook of social interaction written out.
| Nothing offensive about that.
| collingreen wrote:
| Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully
| aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is
| "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".
| etangent wrote:
| 100% correct.
| jamilton wrote:
| Yeah. I wonder why that is - is it because it highlights
| a conflict between our actions and values? If left
| unexamined, it's a non-issue, so having it spelled out
| feels like a problem being created?
| ghurtado wrote:
| I would take it further and say that the more light we
| bring to this subject, the less it becomes the exclusive
| domain of snake oil salesmen and the "sales tips 101" type
| books, and the more inoculated the general public becomes
| to manipulation.
| spicyusername wrote:
| That's a pretty cynical take on what "normal" people are
| doing.
| ndr wrote:
| It is weird, but part of the skill is to surf exactly on
| that line that is normal without crossing it.
|
| Almost all honest signals are about a similar tradeoff.
| munchbunny wrote:
| > I don't want to disparage the author as this is a personal
| journey piece and I appreciate them sharing it. However this
| did leave me slightly uneasy, almost calling back to earlier
| days of the internet when advice about "social skills" often
| meant reductively thinking about other people, assuming you can
| mind-read them to deconstruct their mindset (the section about
| identifying people who feel underpraised, insecure, nervous,)
| and then leverage that to charm them (referred to as "dancing
| to the music" in this post).
|
| I see why you'd think this, but I disagree. In my opinion it's
| two sides of the same coin, and the key moral question is
| whether you use those skills in a moral way. I've seen both
| well-meaning and charismatic people and not so well-meaning
| charismatic people, and at the end of the day I believe that
| charisma is a powerful tool, but it's not fundamentally good or
| bad.
|
| Social interactions have always felt like a game whose rules I
| don't intuitively understand, and I've always envied people
| like my wife who handle it much more naturally and fluidly. The
| same way that I'm comfortable and capable in analytical
| settings, they navigate social settings with just as much
| finesse. I've personally spent a big chunk of my adult life
| trying to learn to navigate social interactions more
| comfortably and more intuitively, so I can see some parallels
| with what the author writes about. (For the record, I'm
| neurotypical, just awkward.)
|
| For most people I don't think it's about charming,
| manipulating, or gaming social interactions, I think it's about
| wanting to make connections and friends because that leads to
| being happier.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| It _is_ manipulation, you are doing things that impact how
| others view you in an effort to get them to do /feel/think
| something. Human interaction is various forms of manipulation.
|
| Many people hear music and can put together some moves without
| thinking about it, others have to deconstruct, learn, and
| rebuild... it's still dancing either way.
| lazide wrote:
| Manipulation vs influence is about intent and degree of
| peoples ability to reject it.
|
| If someone is influencing (actually) other folks can take it
| or leave it, and someone is willing to own it - because it's
| something they actually believe.
|
| Manipulation is non optional, and if rejected causes attacks
| of various forms because people are doing it not because they
| believe it/it will help the 'target', but because they are
| trying to extract something or control the target.
|
| It's the difference between 'follow me if you'd like' and 'do
| what I want you to do or else'.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| The goal of influence _is often_ manipulation... we see it
| all the time with "influencers" trying to illegally
| advertise to people by not disclosing sponsorships
|
| People influencing others are trying to manipulate their
| emotions or thoughts into feeling a certain way about
| something...
|
| We can look to the definitions themselves...
|
| influence: the capacity to have an effect on the character,
| development, or behavior of someone or something, or the
| effect itself.
|
| manipulation: control or influence (a person or situation)
| cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
|
| influence is literally there in the definition of
| manipulation
| dlahoda wrote:
| you are doing it all time. you just not aware.
|
| the person was so bad in thing, and had to build relevant part
| of the brain manually. that part you got automagically.
|
| there is no difference except awarness. over time he will loose
| awarness too.
| nkrisc wrote:
| > The post felt like a rollercoaster between using tricks to
| charm and manipulate, and periods of genuinely trying to learn
| how to be friends with people.
|
| That's all the same thing. What is being friends with people
| other than essentially manipulating them into liking you by
| being likable and a good friend?
|
| What's important is _why_ you're doing it.
| ozim wrote:
| I think big distinction is "doing it on purpose, in a thought
| out manner" vs "just being who you are and people falling
| into friendship with you".
|
| Doing it on purpose - even if you don't have bad intentions -
| still feels selfish, you make them like you for your own
| benefit first and foremost as you want them to be your
| friends.
| nkrisc wrote:
| I'm curious how you accidentally or unintentionally become
| friends with someone. Being friends almost always requires
| intent.
| RangerScience wrote:
| I think this means you didn't read the piece, as it addresses
| this concern of yours in perhaps the simplest way possible:
| it's about why each prior modality has issues.
| ghurtado wrote:
| If you read "how to win friends and influence people", you'll
| realize that these two things are inseparable.
|
| It's pretty much in the title of the book already: it's an
| ironic title because "influence people" sounds like a shady
| goal to have, but the book is fully focused on self improvement
| without ulterior motives. It makes constant reference to
| authenticity, for instance.
|
| Just because something can be used for nefarious purposes
| doesn't mean that it shouldn't be studied or learned.
| perfmode wrote:
| skip to the end
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| They call that too:
|
| > There are two reactions that one could have to the previous
| section. "Wow, that's cool, how he developed the ability to
| create a lot of deep connections in this lonely world." And:
| "that is a weird and creepy thing to want, sounds kind of
| vampiric." I believe that both reactions are correct in some
| proportion.
|
| > Here is the thing about going around the world in a state of
| emotional openness and presence. Many people are hungry for
| that kind of attention. They might dream of getting it from a
| parent, or a mentor, or a lover, but might never receive it.
| Maybe never in their lives. And if you just walk up and give it
| to them, for free -- but you aren't actually interested in a
| deep relationship -- then they might, rightfully, feel
| manipulated, or at least confused. You are writing them
| emotional checks you can't cash.
|
| This post actually kind of blows my mind.
| donatj wrote:
| > The other day, someone told me, "I can't imagine you ever being
| awkward with people."
|
| I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being
| uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet
| recently.
|
| He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said
| something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person,
| that seems out of character." It struck me... am I really that
| good at masking that my therapist didn't realize I am absolutely
| terrified in near all social situations? I have zero idea how to
| make small talk with people I haven't known for years.
|
| Working from home since COVID has made my social skills so much
| worse because I don't get the practice.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Consider that context heavily impacts how you show up, and in a
| therapy context, you're likely to be a lot more relaxed.
|
| So I'd bet it's not that you're masking that terror when you're
| with your therapist, but that _it isn't present_.
| em-bee wrote:
| i think part of the reason is that our own discomfort feels
| much stronger than it actually shows to others. the discomfort
| is inside us, and the people we interact with don't notice
| because for them it is not a concept. only if you and i meet
| one or both of us might realize the others discomfort.
|
| it's kind of like farting in public. you know you did, and you
| think everyone noticed, but in reality most didn't
| acuozzo wrote:
| > I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't
| known for years.
|
| Forget small talk.
|
| Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears. When it's
| your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote in reply if it's on
| topic or take the opportunity to pivot to a related topic
| you're passionate about. If you do the latter: do. not. info-
| dump. Give them a chance to play the game I just described to
| you from their side.
|
| Need a cold opener? Get the party going with something you
| anticipate the majority of the people there would remember.
|
| --
|
| You: "Hey, does anybody remember the Blizzard of '96?"
|
| Them: "Yeah! I remember they closed down all of Route 9!"
|
| You: "Hell yeah they did. My family pulled me down the highway
| on a snow tube. I've gone tubing every year since. Any tubers
| here?"
|
| Them: "No, but I love snowboarding."
|
| You: "Nice. I was briefly obsessed with snowboarding after
| playing 1080 on the N64, but I was always too chicken-shit to
| try it. Where do you go snowboarding?"
|
| Them: "Vermont. Where do you go tubing?"
|
| You: "I used to do it over near that big hill by the library.
| Ever see that?"
|
| --
|
| Arm yourself with personal stories to make situations like this
| easier. People would rather interact with the guy always
| telling stories than the visibly-uncomfortable one sitting in
| the corner.
| mindwok wrote:
| If you are outwardly meeting lots of people and your therapist
| is picking up on vibes you aren't awkward, it sounds to me like
| you might be being quite hard on yourself. Not to suggest your
| experience isn't valid, but that perhaps your small talk is not
| the issue!
| browningstreet wrote:
| > Working from home since COVID has made my social skills so
| much worse because I don't get the practice.
|
| Opposite for me.. I apply my social efforts to a smaller subset
| of work demands on my time and social interface, and so I have
| more energy for gregariousness after work, on my terms, etc.
| ordu wrote:
| It is like that to me. I believe that I've just learned the
| proper motions for some interactions, and I can look to be very
| social person proficient in communications. It is easy for me,
| no problem. Till I hit some situation where I need to think
| fast, trying to figure out what is expected of me now.
|
| _> I am absolutely terrified in near all social situations_
|
| It is different for me, I'm absolutely confident in near all
| social situations, but there is a catch, I actively avoid
| social situations which make me terrified, and I'm pretty good
| at it.
|
| _> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven
| 't known for years._
|
| I have never bothered to get the idea of a small talk. I hate
| it from my teens, I hate to dig in my mind for something I can
| say when there is nothing to say. Or to voice opinions about
| things I don't care (and "i don't care about your TV-series, I
| never watch them" doesn't count as a socially acceptable
| opinion). So I just avoid such situations overall. Generally if
| you avoid talking with people tet-a-tete you don't need to talk
| small. You can just look like you are listening, why
| calculating ways to leave the place without offending anyone.
| smeej wrote:
| The best small talkers say very little. We just ask interested
| questions about what you've already said. An easy cold opener
| at parties is, "So how do you know the host?" Then inquire
| about whether they're still doing that thing, or how long ago
| it was, or where they did it, whether they learned any cool
| things--the point is to keep asking questions.
|
| Most people love talking about themselves and things they like
| to do. If you can keep them doing that, they'll remember fondly
| the "great conversation" you had.
|
| Fair warning: It won't get you past the third or fourth
| interaction, at which point you probably actually need to have
| something in common, but it's an easy way to get through
| parties.
| awesome_dude wrote:
| Retitle the blog article to
|
| "I'm Autistic and this is how I learned to mask"
| w_for_wumbo wrote:
| I recognize all of these steps, having gone through flavours of
| them myself. The root for me, was that I learned at a young age
| that to feel safe, I needed to cater to what others wanted for
| me. Never learning to ask myself, what I wanted. It might be the
| author's next step, is reconnecting with his inner-desire and
| finding out what he wants from the world, instead of how he wants
| to appear in the world.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| "Socially normal" these days seems to be more like "spends most
| time at home, scopes out gym on regular basis for potential
| likeminded people, struggles to ask other people about
| themselves, flakes if given a rare invite to something"
| hypeatei wrote:
| The bit about him spilling olive oil onto someone's dress then
| playing it off with a flirtatious joke seems very strange to me.
| Maybe it's just my upbringing but trying to pull off a joke like
| that in a tense situation seems very risky. I would be worried
| about coming off unserious, indifferent, and sleazy while also
| stoking an even angrier reaction from the person.
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| I think it was much more about anchoring the other person's
| response as quickly as possible and less about what was
| specifically being said. Sort of like speaking first in a
| negotiation to anchor your salary expectations. Even if the
| rate you propose is outlandish - doing so shifts the expected
| response curve in a way that can be useful.
| nrhrjrjrjtntbt wrote:
| The laye stages sound like psychopathy. The whole thing sounds on
| the one hand very useful and great for shy people but also very
| one dimensional. Did he make any friends?
| opwieurposiu wrote:
| One hazard of being a programmer is that sitting alone in a room
| alone with a computer for 10 years can turn you into a weird
| dude.
|
| Lately I have taken steps to re-learn how to be social. I am
| doing a lot of social dances, like Salsa, Swing, Bachata. I think
| partner dance is good training for body language. Also good
| training for presence, as when you really start dancing, you stop
| thinking; conversely when are thinking too much you will stiffen
| up and choke. There are a surprising number of PHDs and other
| very cerebral people in my local dance scene.
|
| One thing I have learned is that being good at dancing and being
| fun to dance with are orthogonal. You can be technically quite
| bad and people will still want to dance with you if you have good
| eye contact, smile, laugh at your mistakes, tell little jokes,
| complements, etc.
|
| Conversely there are some people that are really technically good
| but not that much fun to dance with because they grimace and look
| away and don't match your energy.
|
| Of course the best is when you find a partner that is both fun
| and technically good, and this is what I ascribe to become.
|
| The downside of dances is that I don't get a lot of practice at
| talking, I guess this is something you could learn to do at bars
| but I don't drink and so have not found really good place to
| practice a lot of talking.
|
| I try to get the guys from my jujitsu gym to come dance, these
| are big bad dudes who could really mess you up in fight, but they
| are all scared to dance with the girls. You will be scared your
| first few times for sure. Personally, I tend to be nervous in
| direct proportion to the beauty of my partner, which can be a
| problem because women that dance tend to be above average in that
| respect.
|
| Most dances have a 1 hour lesson at the beginning and then social
| dance after. The lesson part is easy, you just follow the
| instructions and the teacher will have you rotate partners so you
| get to meet most of the girls. I tell my guy friends, just come
| for the lesson part and then if you get too nervous you can sneak
| out early.
| chis wrote:
| Incredible wisdom here. I can only speculate that the author is
| right about the later stages since I'm nowhere close to that sort
| of thing.
|
| Overall this piece reminds me of reading writeups from pickup
| artists who sort of ascended beyond the game, like they practiced
| so many social skills that they can see through every situation
| and lose interest in it all.
| foo-bar-bat wrote:
| Please go to a therapist.
| mindwok wrote:
| There's a lot of wisdom in this post and it resonates with my
| experience, great write up OP.
|
| I'd add one thing though: OP's ability to observe and imitate
| these kinds of social dynamics he was seeing suggests he's
| already coming from a solid foundation of EQ and also feeling
| secure enough to try on these different personas. Often there's a
| lot of work to be done to even get to that place!
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| The irony of this piece being enjoyable to read and feeling very
| relatable isn't lost upon me :)
|
| It's fascinating to think about how much goes on inside each
| person's mind!
|
| One thing this article reminded me of is a conversation I had
| with an old roommate of mine. I always considered her an absolute
| sorceress when it came to dealing with people.
|
| Anyway, I forget how her and I got onto the conversation, but she
| asked me, "Before you say something to someone - do you ever play
| out the conversation in your mind?" and, of course, I said,
| "Yeah. I'll practice what I'm going to say and think a bit about
| how it'll land." and she countered with, "Do you ever take it one
| step further? By responding to yourself as if you were the person
| you're speaking to and then formulating your response to their
| anticipated response?" And my answer was an emphatic, "Fuck no.
| Are you crazy? Do you do that in real-time mid-conversation??"
|
| Of course, my roommate's approach wasn't something she used all
| the time, but the entire notion was foreign to me because the
| number of branching outcomes seemed large enough as to not be
| valuable to explore. I'm not psychic - why bother trying to
| formulate a response to a response not yet verbalized? And yet,
| if it were low enough effort and I had good enough confidence in
| the outcome, I could completely see the value in anticipating
| responses and trying to approximate the ideal N+1 response. It
| shocked me that someone I considered naturally talented in this
| space had also become comfortable taking on a mental exercise
| that I'd entirely written off as too effortful.
|
| FWIW, I still don't follow her approach and am reasonably happy
| with my conversational skills, but the revelation really made me
| take a step back and consider how much potential depth there is
| in areas I considered shallow.
| porjo wrote:
| Related: "just be yourself" is horrible advice, on its own, to
| give a young person. It must be accompanied by an understanding
| that there is a social game to learn to play, and that "being
| yourself" is not always compatible with playing the game well.
| ajju wrote:
| This was an interesting and thought provoking read. I appreciate
| the author's openness in sharing all that they did.
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