[HN Gopher] Manganese is Lyme disease's double-edge sword
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Manganese is Lyme disease's double-edge sword
Author : gmays
Score : 102 points
Date : 2025-11-14 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.northwestern.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.northwestern.edu)
| ggm wrote:
| And it's also a potent neurotoxin from a crude dr google lookup.
| Which is meaningless because they wouldnt bother exploring both
| sides of the deal if there wasn't a safe dose for humans which is
| bad for the bacteria, but it bears thinking about.
| canadiantim wrote:
| Sounds like starving Lyme of manganese is likely the better
| option that trying to overdose manganese. I don't know how
| effective a low-manganese diet or lifestyle would be though but
| it is very interesting.
| donsupreme wrote:
| It appears that the body cannot produce manganese on its own
| it is an essential trace mineral that must be obtained from
| the diet.
|
| I wonder if a prolonged water fast would do the job.
| kragen wrote:
| Yes, _obviously_ it can 't produce manganese on its own.
| What, do you think the humans have nuclear reactors in
| their squeedlyspooches?
| bregma wrote:
| If you believe really hard and really try you can
| transmutate lead into manganese. Of course, eating all
| that lead will probably kill you first. At least your
| Lyme won't be a problem any more.
| dylan604 wrote:
| And all those years alchemists were wasting their time
| trying to change lead into gold when they could have been
| going for manganese to eliminate Lyme disease! Greed has
| no bounds
| safeimp wrote:
| Trying to starve yourself of manganese would cause harm long
| before it affected Borrelia.
| kragen wrote:
| WP says that manganese deficiency causes skeletal deformity
| and inhibition of wound healing. So I'm guessing that you
| could survive weeks in a severe-manganese-deficiency
| situation before you noticed any ill effects.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > So I'm guessing that you could survive weeks in a
| severe-manganese-deficiency situation before you noticed
| any ill effects.
|
| Your guess would be wrong. Your body needs manganese for
| similar reasons that Lyme disease needs it. You also
| produce MnSOD.
|
| If you starved your body of manganese sufficiently (which
| I doubt you could do without eating a completely
| synthetic diet for months) then you'd be killing yourself
| in parallel with the Lyme disease.
| kragen wrote:
| You could probably add enough phosphate to all your food
| to prevent you from absorbing any manganese, then inject
| iron, calcium, and magnesium? Just guessing here.
|
| How long would it take you to die on a zero-manganese
| diet? If it's longer than it takes Borrelia, you still
| win!
| btilly wrote:
| As noted in my sibling comment, the standard of care for
| eliminating manganese is para-Aminosalicylic acid (PAS).
|
| Plenty of other treatments can remove manganese. But they
| all are biologically active in other unwanted ways.
| butvacuum wrote:
| You would die. Immediately, and screaming in agony.
| btilly wrote:
| That's stupidly wrong.
|
| I regularly find myself on a zero manganese diet for
| hours at a time, and I've yet to experience immediate
| death, screaming in agony.
|
| Furthermore we have lots of data on how well humans can
| tolerate extended low manganese regimens. The standard
| treatment course for TB in the 1950s resulted in humans
| having low manganese for 1-2 years. This was unpleasant,
| but not lethal.
| Aloisius wrote:
| Source? I can't find anything about the standard
| treatment course for TB in the 1950s resulting in low
| manganese.
| btilly wrote:
| See https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4407437/ to
| verify that PAS was used.
|
| Any google search on PAS and manganese will show that it
| eliminates manganese from the body by chelating it, and
| is therefore used for treating manganese toxicity.
|
| I don't have a specific reference for manganese levels in
| people undergoing the old TB treatment. But I'm sure that
| it should exist somewhere.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > I don't have a specific reference for manganese levels
| in people undergoing the old TB treatment. But I'm sure
| that it should exist somewhere.
|
| You've spread this claim throughout the comment section
| and called others "dead wrong", yet even you can't find a
| reference to support it?
|
| The mechanism of PAS in TB is not manganese reduction:
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/
| Aurornis wrote:
| I wrote more above, but I cannot find anything to support
| this claim about PAS being used because it reduces
| manganese either.
|
| The mechanism of action of PAS against TB is in the
| Dihydrofolate Reductase pathway:
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/
|
| I can only guess that this commenter saw that PAS can
| also be used for manganese chelation and jumped to
| conclusions?
| btilly wrote:
| The idea is not trivially wrong. It's the same idea as
| chemotherapy. Sure, it is a poison for you. But it hits
| the cancer harder than you, and so can also be an
| effective treatment.
|
| That said, it is very unlikely that simply reducing
| manganese is preferable to existing antibiotics. But that
| doesn't rule out the potential effectiveness of a
| combination therapy.
|
| Here is how we'd do that combination therapy. We'd mix a
| standard antibiotic with oral para-Aminosalicylic acid
| (PAS). Orally delivered PAS is the the standard treatment
| for treating excess manganese in humans. (Sorry, but
| you're dead wrong about needing a completely synthetic
| diet for months.) While PAS does harm a few kinds of
| stomach bacteria, it is far better than a broad spectrum
| antibiotic. And if the target disease is under stress
| already, then you need less antibiotic to finish them
| off.
|
| Sure, a medicine that targets manganese in Lyme disease
| bacteria would be even better than this combination. But
| that medicine does not exist. And the combination in
| question is something that can be experimented with
| today, using drugs that have already been approved by the
| FDA.
|
| Furthermore this is a combination that we already have a
| lot of experience with. Back in the 1950s, a variation on
| this, working on the same principles, was the standard
| treatment for tuberculosis. It was abandoned not because
| it was ineffective, but because we developed treatments
| with fewer side effects.
| kragen wrote:
| This is fascinating, thanks!
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Here is how we'd do that combination therapy. We'd mix
| a standard antibiotic with oral para-Aminosalicylic acid
| (PAS).
|
| I responded to your comment above with this same claim. I
| cannot find any sources that say reducing manganese was
| the mechanism of PAS in TB.
|
| A recent research paper on PAS in TB doesn't even mention
| manganese once. It identifies Dihydrofolate Reductase
| related actions as the mechanism against TB:
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/
|
| > orally delivered PAS is the the standard treatment for
| treating excess manganese in humans.
|
| EDTA has been the standard treatment. PAS has been
| explored and trialed. It can be used, but I don't know if
| I'd call it the "standard" treatment.
|
| > (Sorry, but you're dead wrong about needing a
| completely synthetic diet for months.)
|
| I was talking about a low-manganese diet, which the
| comment above me suggested. I don't know why you're so
| set on calling me "dead wrong" so much when you can't
| provide sources and aren't even reading what I'm writing.
|
| > While PAS does harm a few kinds of stomach bacteria, it
| is far better than a broad spectrum antibiotic. And if
| the target disease is under stress already, then you need
| less antibiotic to finish them off.
|
| You're really going to have to provide sources for PAS
| reducing manganese as a mechanism for fighting TB.
|
| As I pointed out in my other comment, manganese is an
| essential cofactor for one of the other anti-TB drugs in
| the triple combination that was used in the past.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > I don't know how effective a low-manganese diet or
| lifestyle would be though but it is very interesting.
|
| You cannot achieve what the paper is discussing through diet
| or supplements.
|
| The paper is hypothesizing that if a drug could target the
| components of B. burgdorferi that regulate manganese then
| that would kill it.
|
| You cannot deprive the cells of manganese or overwhelm them
| through supplementation or restrictive diet. You would damage
| your own body long before reaching levels that killed the
| Lyme infection.
|
| I really hope the alternative medicine people don't start
| abusing this headline to push diets and supplements.
| canadiantim wrote:
| I really hope the anti-medicine people don't start grasping
| for a middleman to get in between people and self care.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > self care.
|
| Deliberately inducing manganese deficiency (which I doubt
| you could pull off while still eating food) isn't "self
| care". It's a misunderstanding of what this article is
| saying.
|
| Your body needs manganese and MnSOD (one of the target
| enzymes mentioned in the article) just as much as Lyme
| disease does.
|
| You could theoretically kill the Lyme by killing the host
| body, like that classic XKCD about destroying anything in
| a petri dish if you don't care about collateral damage.
| The key to making a successful treatment is finding a way
| to kill the infection without killing the host.
|
| Calling anything you're suggesting "self care" is
| dangerous and wrong.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Take antibiotics. They generally just work.
| DANmode wrote:
| Assuming you've tested for, identified, targeted, and then
| retested for, all of your coinfections.
|
| Unfortunately, this doesn't seem ubiquitous.
| Aurornis wrote:
| Nobody, in the article or otherwise, is suggesting that you can
| take manganese to fight Lyme. I don't know where you got that,
| but I hope nobody thinks to try it.
|
| The idea would be to look at all of the components that
| regulate manganese in B. burgdorferi and then look for drugs
| that might disrupt how they operate.
|
| Any solution would act indirectly by disrupting manganese
| balance in a targeted manner directed at B. burgdorferi, not by
| flooding the whole body with manganese. The cells regulate
| their internal manganese anyway, so supplementing manganese
| wouldn't force it to go into those cells anyway.
|
| This is a PR release for some research that tries to stretch it
| into a promising treatment, but it's really more of an
| interesting discovery than a path to a new treatment.
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| > or otherwise
|
| That's where you would be wrong. By the time you posted your
| comment there are already people hawking manganese bracelets
| on FaceBook as a cure for Lyme disease.
| Aurornis wrote:
| I'm seeing comments jumping to conclusions about taking manganese
| supplements or trying to starve yourself of manganese. These are
| dangerously wrong interpretations of the article.
|
| Any interventions would have to be targeted directly at the B.
| burgdorferi to disrupt their internal regulation of manganese.
| It's a long shot used to make this research discovery sound more
| impressive, not an actual cure.
|
| Your own body uses manganese for critical processes like your
| metabolism, critical brain functionality, and generating
| important antioxidants in your mitochondria (MnSOD, the same one
| mentioned inside of Lyme in the article).
|
| Your body also regulates manganese absorption and excretion.
| Manganese deficiency is extremely rare outside of genetic
| conditions or other medical problems which interfere with this
| regulation. You can't really starve yourself of manganese by
| adjusting your diet or even by periods of fasting.
|
| So if you're reading this and thinking you could defeat Lyme by
| starving yourself of manganese or overdosing on manganese, don't.
| That's not what this article is saying.
| mlinhares wrote:
| Some of the comments here are the kind of stuff that makes you
| lose faith in humanity.
| caycep wrote:
| this sort of case presentation re manganese brain toxicity pops
| up from time to time too:
|
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4515672/
| btilly wrote:
| I agree that we should not simply self-treat by supplements or
| starving ourselves.
|
| But you are dead wrong that interventions would need to be
| directly targeted at B. burgdorferi.
|
| The standard and effective treatment for TB back in the 1950s
| was a combination therapy with Streptomycin, Isoniazid (INH),
| and PAS. The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese
| environment in the body, which put stress on Mycobacterium
| tuberculosis - the bacteria that causes TB. This stress did not
| kill the bacteria by itself, but it did make it more vulnerable
| to the rest of the treatment. Because of this treatment, we
| have a lot of data showing how well people do with low
| manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that
| this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular it
| came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable.
|
| If low manganese really does stress B. burgdorferi, then a
| similar combination is worth trying today. Better yet, this
| combination would not require the development of a new drug
| that needs FDA approval. It can be tried using only drugs that
| have been long approved, and which are already part of standard
| medical practice. (Granted, PAS is no longer used for TB. But
| it is the standard treatment for an excess of manganese.)
| Aurornis wrote:
| > The purpose of PAS was to create a low manganese
| environment in the body,
|
| Do you have a source for this?
|
| I searched, but this recent paper on the mechanism of action
| for para-Aminosalicylic Acid (PAS) doesn't even mention
| manganese. It says it targets Dihydrofolate Reductase
| pathways: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5395024/
|
| Searching for manganese and TB leads me to papers showing
| that manganese is an essential cofactor for Isoniazid's anti-
| TB action: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319159/ but
| nothing about inducing low manganese states would be helpful
| or intentional.
|
| So I don't think I'm dead wrong at all. Unless you have some
| sources, I don't think inducing manganese deficiency is
| actually the mechanism of action for PAS.
|
| > we have a lot of data showing how well people do with low
| manganese for a period of 1-2 years. (That was the time that
| this treatment required.) It wasn't pleasant (in particular
| it came with nausea), but it was definitely survivable.
|
| Again, do you have any source for this? Preferably a source
| that indicates what manganese levels were reduced to during
| treatment?
|
| The side effects are likely due to the 3 drugs in combination
| which have their own side effects, not low manganese (if it
| occurred).
|
| EDIT: This commenter was making the same claim down thread
| and admitted they couldn't find a source for their claim:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45932379 It seems like
| they're making assumptions and presenting it as scientific
| fact.
| butvacuum wrote:
| "cofactor is a non-protein chemical compound or metallic
| ion that is required for an enzyme to function as a
| catalyst."
| hinkley wrote:
| I don't recall the chemical, but there was one mentioned on
| Everything is Tuberculosis. Someone discovered that aspirin
| makes TB metabolize more oxygen. Someone found a chemical
| with the opposite effect, suppressing instead of exciting the
| same pathway. Based on you're description I don't believe it
| was PAS though.
| DANmode wrote:
| > Any interventions would have to be targeted directly at the
| B. burgdorferi
|
| Alcohol suspension tincture of the following antibacterial
| herbs together, which target Lyme's various coinfections:
|
| a. Cryptolepsis sanguinolenta
|
| b. Polygonum cuspidatum (aka: Japanese knotweed)
|
| c. Artemisia annua (aka: Sweet wormwood)
|
| d. Uncaria tomentosa (aka: Cat's claw)
|
| Begin with one drop two times per day, increasing to
| tolerance/under advisement of your ND/MD, or wellness
| consultant.
| hinkley wrote:
| I have heard that forensic analysis can see a distinct
| sufficient enough difference in bone manganese levels to
| identify the diet of a deceased person. Vegetarian diets end up
| with excess Mn stored in the bones. Like calcium, it's needed
| and water soluble so you've gotta store it for a rainy day.
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| Lyme desperately needs more attention and revised CDC guideline
| as it's becoming an epidemic in the northeast United States.
|
| As and outdoor-hobbies type person I've had it 3 out of 4
| previous years and have begun sourcing antibiotics from
| agricultural suppliers, or directly from India. Contrast this to
| my childhood in the same region, when tick-borne diseases were
| never even a blip on the radar. Supposedly this is because of
| climate change and much warmer winters allow deer ticks to spread
| rapidly.
|
| From my own anecdotes and research, none of the traditional
| guidance is accurate:
|
| -Never had a bullseye rash
|
| -Never had a tick attached more than 24 hours
|
| -When a tick was attached around 24 hours, infection rate was
| close to 50% and symptoms appeared within 10 days. Contrast to
| ~3% infection rate per cdc average.
|
| ...I suppose the sad irony here is that lyme is not getting
| attention because well... current generations never _touch grass_
| and the outbreak never appears as bad as it actually is.
| methyl wrote:
| what were your symptoms?
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| First year:
|
| Very covid-like symptoms, to the point where I initially did
| a quick home covid test (or multiple tests if I remember)
| that was negative. Very distinct soreness around the crease
| of the hip/leg joint, probably a lymph gland.
|
| Second year: exact same symptoms but less intense, still
| started antibiotics immediately
|
| third: again same but less intense, I ignored it until
| general full-body joint pain occurred then immediately went
| on antibiotics, after a few months of that it started to
| clear up.
| vatsachak wrote:
| Glad that your lyme was temporary
| bitexploder wrote:
| Lyme disease and bacteria are always temporary. The long
| term disease/syndrome many people attribute to it is
| something else similar to long COVID and still debated.
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| This is the one area where the CDC actually does have
| accurate advice, Lyme is excellent at hiding itself from
| your immune system and tends to burrow into joint tissue
| where antibiotics have difficulty reaching. DON'T assume
| the disease is temporary, as the bacteria is well-known
| to cause lasting nerve damage even after it dies off
| completely. I have more than one friend who wasn't as
| lucky as me and still suffers with symptoms to this day.
| jeromegv wrote:
| Lyme Disease has existed for a very long time, it is
| always treatable by antibiotics and can be tested by
| tests. Antibiotics work.
| dzuc wrote:
| treat your clothing with permethrin
| tiku wrote:
| Can't easily buy it in Europe. Some dog sprays have it, and
| stuff against wood bugs.
| josters wrote:
| At least in Germany you can get Nobite sprays in drug
| stores. This (German) security sheet[1] lists 2% Permethrin
| as an ingredient.
|
| [1] https://nobite.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2025/03/Nobite_Kleidun...
| hawk_ wrote:
| Is Lyme disease much of a problem in Europe though?
| dylan604 wrote:
| > -Never had a tick attached more than 24 hours
|
| > -When a tick was attached around 24 hours,
|
| These comments directly contradict the other. Either you've
| never had a tick for 24 hours which means the second comment
| isn't true, or your first comment is not true.
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| "Around 24 hours" means approximately 1 day. "More than 24
| hours" means more than approximately 1 day. Please do not
| comment further unless you actually have something useful to
| add.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| > current generations never touch grass and the outbreak never
| appears as bad as it actually is.
|
| I must say, I played in tall grass a lot as a child, catching
| insects and whatnot. Now I won't go anywhere near them without
| pretty serious protection, and I spend a great deal of time
| outdoors
| ck2 wrote:
| whenever I need a crash-course on a vitamin or mineral I check
| the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University for
| quality info written by and reviewed by Phds
|
| https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/manganese
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| Didn't Pauling fall prey to pseudoscience regarding Vitamin C?
| It's embarrassing to name an institute after him.
| ck2 wrote:
| yes he basically created the "vitamin C cult" of the time
| which is like the "vitamin D cult" of today
|
| HOWEVER
|
| Linus Pauling was also a legit brilliant chemist that won two
| nobel prizes and authored over 1000 papers
|
| He created "quantum chemistry" and "molecular biology"
|
| And was also a big peace activist
|
| So he is forgiven for the Vitamin C stuff
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling
| meindnoch wrote:
| Lyme disease is basically a political weapon in today's America.
| bazmattaz wrote:
| Huh? Explain
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