[HN Gopher] Time to start de-Appling
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Time to start de-Appling
        
       Author : msangi
       Score  : 262 points
       Date   : 2025-11-10 14:57 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (heatherburns.tech)
 (TXT) w3m dump (heatherburns.tech)
        
       | spankalee wrote:
       | Something's wrong with the CSS on this page. The end of every
       | line is cut off.
        
         | tempfile wrote:
         | Same for me. You can get around it by zooming in.
        
         | daemonologist wrote:
         | .site-content .post has `overflow: hidden;`, .site-content
         | .entry-content has `max-width: 965px;`, and .wide-content has
         | `margin-right: -34.0740%;` Disabling the margin-right or,
         | preferably, the max-width rule will fix the layout. Or make
         | your browser less than 1700px wide.
         | 
         | (Crazy rats nest of CSS rules, I assume this is a
         | wordpress/wordpress template thing.)
        
         | fwip wrote:
         | If you resize the window to a narrower width, it will wrap more
         | normally.
        
         | busymom0 wrote:
         | Yes, same issue for me. The negative margin-right is causing
         | the issue:                   margin-right: -34.0740%;
        
         | joshstrange wrote:
         | Ahh, just saw this after posting my comment. Yes, it appears
         | that at 1700px or greater it cuts off text. Shown in this
         | video: https://cs.joshstrange.com/BB60xzBW
        
       | iwontberude wrote:
       | Wouldn't it be easier to just move away from the UK? (I jest, but
       | actually...)
        
         | exasperaited wrote:
         | Not as many easy paths anymore for a British worker, tech or
         | otherwise, thanks to The Foolishness.
         | 
         | And the most popular choice -- the USA -- is off the table for
         | the majority of Brits, I think, who cannot comprehend The Other
         | Foolishness. (Mind you, the ones it encourages... I hope they
         | follow their hearts)
        
           | yearolinuxdsktp wrote:
           | What about the Republic of Ireland?
        
             | exasperaited wrote:
             | That is straightforward to the point that a British citizen
             | can just go there and work, even go there and freelance.
             | 
             | (I have given it some consideration myself.)
             | 
             | Generally speaking, though, it's not a route Brits take in
             | huge numbers, for legacy reasons. Though plenty
             | investigated their potential for citizenship.
        
         | ceuk wrote:
         | No need to leave, move up north and wait for all the
         | shenanigans to blow over. Hard to be annoyed at the government
         | and the corporations when you're walking through the Yorkshire
         | dales on a sunny day
        
         | webdevver wrote:
         | nobody is going to stop you leaving the UK.
         | 
         | its _entering_ another country that suddenly becomes a real
         | problem, and ofcourse, if you 're in the UK, the only country
         | worth moving to at that point is the US with (as I understand)
         | quite stringent immigration restrictions.
         | 
         | in reality, if the US were to open their doors to the UK, holy
         | moly - this entire country would turn into Ukraine overnight,
         | with nobody but pensioners left. which actually isn't in either
         | governments interest: obviously not the UK, but infact, the UK
         | presents a source of cheap labour for the US: read any
         | hackernews thread concerning tech wages in the UK, the comments
         | are hysterical/diabolical ("you make HOW much!?" - "A fast food
         | worker makes more..." - etc.)
         | 
         | so, the current state of affairs is probably a good business
         | arrangement for both parties involved, and aren't gonna change
         | any time soon.
        
       | reboot81 wrote:
       | Apple obeys the law. Policians set the law. You vote for
       | politicians.
       | 
       | So nu, it makes no sense to blame Apple here.
        
         | jjtheblunt wrote:
         | it does if you're clickbaiting via ragebait, like she is?
        
           | veleek wrote:
           | I think it's a stretch to say the author is blaming Apple in
           | the title and she explicitly calls out in the very first
           | section:
           | 
           | > But I will say that the shutdown of ADP is Apple being on
           | the right side of the geopolitical fight, as inconvenient as
           | that may be to you and me.
        
         | cbsmith wrote:
         | > But I will say that the shutdown of ADP is Apple being on the
         | right side of the geopolitical fight, as inconvenient as that
         | may be to you and me.
         | 
         | I don't think there's any blaming of Apple going on here. This
         | is about dealing with the practical realities of the
         | circumstances for people in the UK.
        
         | cjs_ac wrote:
         | Unlike most writing about politics, the article isn't arguing
         | that 'those are the bad people over there'. The article
         | describes a current aspect of reality and how it came about,
         | and suggests a way of responding to that reality.
        
           | smsm42 wrote:
           | The right way to respond to this reality would be to stop UK
           | government from being insane by electing a more sane
           | government. Stopping using iphones is going to help only for
           | a short term - once encryption is de-legalized, they will
           | come for everybody who they deem worth coming for, sooner or
           | later. If it'll require introducing licenses to run
           | encryption software and mandating key escrow, they'd do that.
           | Yes, you still would be able to sneak in encrypting software
           | on USB drive hidden in your... let's say, pocket. But the
           | mere fact of using it would make you a criminal then. That's
           | the natural progression of where it is going, unfortunately.
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | The writer isn't blaming Apple.
        
           | sedatk wrote:
           | The title certainly disagrees.
        
             | dare944 wrote:
             | I does not in the slightest. Rather, It suggests it's time
             | to start removing Apple entanglements from your digital
             | life, for reasons that are described in the article.
        
               | sedatk wrote:
               | See my sibling comment.
        
             | caconym_ wrote:
             | No, it doesn't.
             | 
             | If I get up in the morning and say "time to get out of the
             | house" I am not blaming my house for anything; I am simply
             | articulating that I want or need to be somewhere else, for
             | whatever reason.
        
               | sedatk wrote:
               | Eh, the whole "de-Brand" lingo comes from "de-Googling"
               | which has unambiguously blamed Google for the act. The
               | use of the same type of terminology automatically implies
               | the same set of circumstances.
               | 
               | When you say "time to de-CocaCola" while all soda
               | products are susceptible to a certain health hazard, you
               | can't say "Obviously, CocaCola isn't being blamed here".
               | 
               | The analog of your example would be "time to get out of
               | the cloud" for the article.
        
               | caconym_ wrote:
               | The issue is specific to Apple! IIUC they're the only
               | mainstream cloud storage provider that provides E2EE, and
               | I'm sure many of their customers chose them over their
               | competitors for that reason.
        
               | 9rx wrote:
               | _> the whole  "de-Brand" lingo comes from "de-Googling"_
               | 
               | Which no doubt stems from more practical usage, like "de-
               | worming". That does not imply that there is blame to go
               | around. You are not blaming the worm -- you just want rid
               | of it because it is not something that is working for
               | you.
        
             | adolph wrote:
             | The frog refusing to carry the scorpion is not to blame the
             | scorpion for their condition but to recognize that they are
             | a scorpion and behave thusly.
        
         | thenthenthen wrote:
         | Apple obeys the law. They operate in countries where you can
         | not vote.
        
         | encom wrote:
         | England has been speedrunning the dystopian surveillance police
         | state for a while now, through numerous governments. Voting is
         | pointless.
         | 
         | Same (but different) in Denmark where politicians vote to give
         | themselves more money[1], snoop on everything[2], violate our
         | constitution unpunished[3], delete evidence of corruption[4],
         | open the borders[5], etc. etc. etc. I used to care - a lot - I
         | really did. But I'm done.
         | 
         | [1]https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/ny-aftale-politikeres-
         | loen...
         | [2]https://www.justitsministeriet.dk/pressemeddelelse/i-dag-
         | tra... [3]https://www.information.dk/indland/2020/12/jurister-
         | ja-grund... [4]https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/politisk-
         | flertal-presser-m... [5]https://integrationsbarometer.dk/tal-
         | og-analyser/INTEGRATION...
        
           | graemep wrote:
           | Might come across as pedantic, but its important, "the UK"
           | not "England". Confusing the two can upset people, especially
           | those from the rest of the UK.
           | 
           | Personally I do not think its just the UK and Denmark, its
           | pretty much everywhere.
        
             | encom wrote:
             | I specified England because I don't know what's going on in
             | the rest of the Kingdom. Might be just as bad, I dunno.
        
               | graemep wrote:
               | The surveillance laws are all UK wide AFAIK. Some policy
               | with regard to policing is devolved so there might be
               | some small differences in how they are applied, but it is
               | essentially just as bad.
        
           | BirAdam wrote:
           | In general, if voting had the power to change much, it would
           | be illegal. Rulers allow voting to change a few things, but
           | never the things that benefit themselves.
        
             | stOneskull wrote:
             | it keeps people divided and against each other, rather than
             | united against the rulers
        
         | infinitezest wrote:
         | It must be nice to live somewhere that has politicians that
         | represent the will of the people enough to have a take like
         | this. Where I live, your vote only counts if you have enough
         | money.
        
           | vkou wrote:
           | You're asking for a monkey's paw.
           | 
           | The current ruling party in the US has given its voters
           | exactly what they think they wanted, and it's a fucking
           | disaster.
        
             | pessimizer wrote:
             | Because no matter who they vote for, they get this. The
             | previous ruling party hasn't had a real primary since 2008
             | (and didn't even go through the motions in 2024.) H.
             | Clinton makes a fairly good case that even that one was
             | fixed (because they knew the best horse to bet on.)
             | 
             | No matter who you vote for you get Hillary Clinton's
             | governance, though. She's become very complimentary about
             | Trump's foreign policy.
        
             | infinitezest wrote:
             | What specifically are you referring to here?
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | > Apple obeys the law
         | 
         | No, they don't:
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45854441
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44529061
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45492410
        
         | ubermonkey wrote:
         | Did you read the article? She doesn't blame Apple.
         | 
         | Sixth paragraph: "But I will say that the shutdown of ADP is
         | Apple being on the right side of the geopolitical fight, as
         | inconvenient as that may be to you and me."
        
       | nsxwolf wrote:
       | While waiting for this site to come back up can someone explain
       | the word "appling"? Is that a typo?
        
         | colechristensen wrote:
         | "Apple-ing"
         | 
         | turning a name into a verb is common these days
        
           | liotier wrote:
           | You mean verbing a noun ?
        
             | wizzwizz4 wrote:
             | Verbing weirds language.
        
               | syncsynchalt wrote:
               | The trees are really sneezing today.
        
         | waffletower wrote:
         | 'Appling' - using Apple products. In this case iCloud SaaS
         | products I believe.
        
         | veleek wrote:
         | In the context of the article de-appling is what you should do
         | after de-googling.
        
         | croemer wrote:
         | https://archive.is/8SI66 if you don't want to wait
        
       | codexb wrote:
       | Sounds more like people need to de-UK. It's going to be a problem
       | with any company or technology.
        
         | advisedwang wrote:
         | Ah yes, 70 million people find a country they are eligible to
         | move to, quitting their jobs, uprooting their families.
         | Definitely the most straightforward fix. Thankfully other
         | countries have no problems either, or they'd have to leave from
         | those too!
        
           | jajuuka wrote:
           | Granted it would be more impactful that to stop using Google
           | and Apple services.
        
           | cmsj wrote:
           | The actual straightforward fix isn't available to us -
           | namely, we aren't due a general election until 2029 and right
           | now the "good guys" are in power, so it's not at all clear
           | that anyone would even offer to reverse this TCN if they were
           | elected instead, in 4 years time.
        
             | anonymousiam wrote:
             | At least the US hasn't postponed the general elections to
             | keep the unpopular party in power.
             | 
             | https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/devolution-and-lgr-
             | hub/...
        
               | exe34 wrote:
               | I wish they would help get as many reform councils as
               | possible. Given how incompetent they have been in the
               | ones they did get elected, I think it would put a damper
               | on the enthusiasm of their supporters.
        
               | 4ndrewl wrote:
               | Fact check - the UK hasn't postponed the general
               | election.
               | 
               | Your link points to _some_ local council elections (the
               | people responsible for bin collections, parks and care
               | homes) and the extension has been requested by the local
               | councils themselves.
        
               | kcartlidge wrote:
               | Neither has the UK government.
               | 
               | * It wasn't the general election.
               | 
               | * They offered local councils the chance to request it if
               | they were going through a reorganisation or devolution
               | process.
               | 
               | * 18 councils requested and 9 were accepted as justified.
               | 
               | * And even those are only delayed until May next year
               | (one year after the rest of the UK).
               | 
               | So to be clear the UK government not only didn't postpone
               | the general elections but half the councils who requested
               | the _local_ elections were postponed were denied, with
               | the other half having reasons and still doing it a year
               | later anyway.
               | 
               | And all that is actually covered in the page you link to.
        
         | benoau wrote:
         | It's more likely to be a problem with Apple (and Google)
         | because they have put themselves in a position where they are a
         | gateway to _everybody_. There are multitudes of online storage
         | providers outside of the UK 's reach and jurisdiction but 0% of
         | iPhone users back up to them because of technical limitations
         | that inhibit iCloud competitors or any compatible storage
         | solution.
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | > 0% of iPhone users back up to them because of technical
           | limitations that inhibit iCloud competitors or any compatible
           | storage solution.
           | 
           | To clarify, by "technical limitations" here you don't mean
           | "it's not possible with our current technology", you mean
           | "Apple purposely blocks this".
        
             | benoau wrote:
             | Allegedly it's deliberate, according to a pair of legal
             | actions they face in the UK (hearing in 9 days) and US
             | (hearing in August 2026).
             | 
             | > 13.1 a set of technical restrictions and practices that
             | prevent users of iOS from storing certain key file types
             | (known as "Restricted Files") on any cloud storage service
             | other than its own iCloud and thus ensuring that users have
             | no choice but to use iCloud (a complete monopolist in
             | respect of these Restricted Files) if they wish to meet all
             | their cloud storage and/or back up needs, in particular in
             | order to conduct a complete back-up of the device ("the
             | Restricted File Conduct"); and/or
             | 
             | > 13.2 an unfair choice architecture, which individually
             | and cumulatively steer iOS Users towards using and
             | purchasing iCloud rather than other cloud storage services,
             | and/or limit their effective choice, and/or exclude or
             | disadvantage rivals or would- be rivals ( "the Choice
             | Architecture Conduct "). See further paragraphs 6 to 9 and
             | 97 to 132 of the CPCF.
             | 
             | https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/16897724-consumers-
             | assoc... (via summary of ruling of the chair)
             | 
             | > 30. By sequestering Restricted Files, and denying all
             | other cloud providers access to them, Apple prevents rival
             | cloud platforms from offering a full-service cloud solution
             | that can compete effectively against iCloud. The cloud
             | products that rivals can offer are, by virtue of Apple's
             | restraints, fundamentally diminished because they can only
             | host Accessible Files. Users who want to back up all of
             | their files--including the basic Restricted Files needed to
             | restore their device at replacement--have but one option in
             | the marketplace: iCloud.
             | 
             | > 31. There is no technological or security justification
             | for Apple mandating the use of iCloud for Restricted Files.
             | Apple draws this distinction only to curtail competition
             | and advantage its iCloud product over rival cloud
             | platforms.
             | 
             | https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68303306/felix-
             | gamboa-v... (via document 1 the complaint)
        
           | buran77 wrote:
           | > they are a gateway to everybody
           | 
           | They are, and most time this allows them to abuse you. But
           | what do you think happens once you that gateway is blown
           | open, isn't your front door next?
           | 
           | > There are multitudes of online storage providers outside of
           | the UK's reach and jurisdiction
           | 
           | What I said above means that once you normalize the situation
           | that providers have to open the gate to your yard whenever
           | the state comes knocking, the state will just come knocking
           | directly at your door. In other words I'm not sure the state
           | will stop in its pursuit of access to your data when it can
           | just incriminate trying to evade the law by storing it out of
           | reach.
        
             | benoau wrote:
             | > But what do you think happens once you that gateway is
             | blown open, isn't your front door next?
             | 
             | Yes this is the way policing should work, if they think you
             | have done something they knock on _your_ door rather than
             | go to Apple and Google and compromise the entire population
             | all at once through the convenience of their monopolies.
             | Bonus points if a judge needs to grant them the privilege
             | of knocking on your door too.
        
               | buran77 wrote:
               | > Yes this is the way policing should work, if they think
               | you have done something they knock on your door [...]
               | Bonus points if a judge needs to grant them the privilege
               | 
               | How exactly would they come after you if your data is
               | "outside of the UK's reach and jurisdiction"? They went
               | after the gatekeepers because they wanted a one stop shop
               | for accessing people's data. They will look to take the
               | same easy road in the future and there's nothing easier
               | then framing any attempts to keep data out of UK's reach
               | as a crime. They get your data or get you for not
               | providing the data.
               | 
               | The law will be "stupid", tech savvy people will find
               | ways around it. But it's enough to throw a or a noose
               | around as many people as possible and tighten as time
               | goes by. Authoritarianism 101.
        
               | benoau wrote:
               | > How exactly would they come after you if your data is
               | "outside of the UK's reach and jurisdiction"?
               | 
               | By suspecting you of a crime _first_ , then they can
               | establish access to your device through legal due process
               | and access the data on your device or imprison you for
               | not facilitating it. Same thing they do with computer
               | passwords and whatnot.
        
           | thewebguyd wrote:
           | > There are multitudes of online storage providers outside of
           | the UK's reach and jurisdiction
           | 
           | Not according to the UK, lately. The problem is still
           | domestic. UK wants to exert this control over any service a
           | UK citizens happens to use, whether they have a UK presence
           | or not. Same with the ID/Age verification stuff.
           | 
           | Moving away from Apple and Google probably is something they
           | should do, but it's not going to be a solution to the problem
           | of the UK government's overreach.
           | 
           | UK citizens need to turn their attention inward against their
           | government.
        
             | jen20 wrote:
             | To be clear, Apple and Google both have huge UK presence. I
             | don't know the extent of Google, but Apple has offices with
             | thousands of people working in them. Compliance with what
             | the UK wants in this regard is not optional.
             | 
             | What the original poster does is completely misplace blame
             | under the guise of "clever" writing - blame should be
             | assigned squarely on the idiotic policies of the UK
             | government.
        
               | mananaysiempre wrote:
               | Google has been building a huge new office in London for
               | a bit now, with the apparent intent to move most of their
               | EU presence there.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | It's an Apple problem, because with libre tools you can run
         | your own software to circumvent this law.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | The majority of apple and android users can't run their own
           | libre software, until libre software is as easy and seamless
           | to use as the comparables.
        
           | bnastic wrote:
           | You can run your own software, but if asked by UK authorities
           | to provide the keys/password and you don't comply you face
           | prison time.
        
             | amelius wrote:
             | You can safely leave it to FOSS to implement ways around
             | that.
        
         | odiroot wrote:
         | There's more good reasons to de-Apple besides just residing in
         | UK.
        
       | thw_9a83c wrote:
       | From the article:
       | 
       | > Otherwise, please make sure you de-Apple, de-Google, and de-
       | American Stack yourself when you have time, clarity, and focus to
       | do it. Start today.
       | 
       | I don't understand the core of this advice. So if you're in the
       | UK and do all the above, can you suddenly get similar E2EE cloud
       | storage from a different provider without a UK government-
       | mandated backdoor?
        
         | benoau wrote:
         | Hopefully pretty soon Apple _will_ have to provide the same
         | functionality iCloud monopolizes so you can have an equivalent
         | service. But right now you can do an encrypted transmission to
         | a privately-owned NAS like Synology and then E2E cloud storage
         | provider of your choice, with the caveat that things like
         | background syncing are strategically monopolized and no app may
         | backup your full phone.
         | 
         | https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/16897724-consumers-assoc...
         | (hearing in 9 days)
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | It's a bit like the famous HN post where somebody said that
           | Dropbox is not needed if you have rsync and friends.
           | 
           | Technically this can even be correct. You can build and
           | operate a good, secure solution for yourself _if you have
           | time and skill to build_. Could make sense for a company
           | handling sensitive data. Would hardly make sense for most
           | individuals who are not professional SREs  / SWEs. (To check
           | how it feels, an engineer can try to sew themself a pair of
           | pants to wear daily, or do something similarly mundane in
           | what they are not skilled.)
           | 
           | A solution that can reliably work for non-experts is very
           | important.
        
             | benoau wrote:
             | Sure but in this case most of the difficulties are
             | artificially imposed by Apple, depending on how the
             | tribunal responds to their alleged iCloud monopoly it could
             | become as simple as choosing a compatible provider and
             | putting your username/password in.
        
               | smsm42 wrote:
               | And as soon as you have "a provider" as a business
               | entity, UK government can ban them from providing E2EE
               | solutions to Apple users the same way they did ban Apple.
               | Or the provider would just silently bend over hand hand
               | all the keys to the UK govt.
        
               | benoau wrote:
               | They can't police every online server you can possibly
               | rent, and they can't police them "all at once" like they
               | can with the Google/Apple duopoly, all they can do is go
               | after them one-by-one as they _need_ access and as we see
               | with 4chan, rejecting their assertions on jurisdiction is
               | certainly an option.
        
               | smsm42 wrote:
               | They can't. But they can police any service that has
               | substantial number of users. And that's what most of the
               | people would use. So, the hardened criminals would use
               | their own underground darknet services which the
               | government couldn't breach, but the regular people would
               | have no privacy at all.
               | 
               | > 4chan, rejecting their assertions on jurisdiction is
               | certainly an option.
               | 
               | 4chan can tell UK regulators to take hike because 4chan
               | has no business presence in the UK. Any service that does
               | want to serve UK users and is successful in doing so,
               | will eventually find itself in UK regulators' crosshairs.
               | For services that are based outside UK, they'd just stop
               | serving UK users because that's the easiest way to handle
               | it. Which is completely fine with UK regulators, in fact,
               | that's exactly what they want - so that nobody would be
               | able to provide privacy to UK subjects.
        
         | thenthenthen wrote:
         | I have done all this. All inhad to do was provide my passport
         | scans, fingerprints, photos of my face, phone number so now I
         | can use tencent cloud in china! /s
        
         | caconym_ wrote:
         | E2EE cloud storage is not some kind of magic that only tech
         | bigcorps can provide. I de-Dropboxed a few years ago, replacing
         | it with Syncthing running on a local NAS with e2ee backups in
         | Backblaze and Wireguard VPN out to my mobile devices. Sure,
         | this is not the sort of thing most people can set up for
         | themselves, but I don't think that's particularly relevant in
         | context.
        
           | aucisson_masque wrote:
           | Syncthing and e2e is great but the issue is that the law
           | force you to give away your phone and your password if asked.
           | Meaning, they have the encrypted data on your phone and the
           | password to unlock it.. same for computer ofc.
           | 
           | If you're in England and have to keep things secured
           | (including from government eyes), i have no idea how you can
           | do. They soon will be allowed to put a camera in your small
           | room and watch you take a dump.
        
         | disambiguation wrote:
         | # Encrypt a file openssl enc -aes-256-cbc -salt -in secret.txt
         | -out secret.enc
         | 
         | # Decrypt openssl enc -d -aes-256-cbc -in secret.enc -out
         | secret.txt
         | 
         | Wow that was hard.
        
           | prophesi wrote:
           | I'm reminded of the infamous HN Dropbox comment.
        
             | runjake wrote:
             | Reference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
        
           | johnmaguire wrote:
           | Yeesh, this seems like a good example of the fact that a
           | feature (encrypting a file) is not a product (an E2E
           | encrypted storage solution.)
        
           | exe34 wrote:
           | Re: rubber hose attack on cryptography.
        
             | Zak wrote:
             | Threat modeling is important of course. The UK government
             | does have tools with which to punish people who don't turn
             | over the cleartext of targeted documents once it's directly
             | investigating them, but that's not scalable. The method the
             | grandparent comment proposes greatly reduces one's exposure
             | to mass surveillance, criminals, and abusive service
             | providers.
        
           | smsm42 wrote:
           | You may think you're being sarcastic, but you are just
           | stating a true fact here. For about 99.9% of this planet's
           | population, it's not just hard, it's something they'd never
           | ever know how to do and have no intention to ever learn. Like
           | it or hate it, but that's what it is.
           | 
           | And, for 99.9% of people who know how to do that, they'd
           | still be too lazy to do it properly (hint: where do you keep
           | secret.txt exactly? What happens if your dog eats it?) and
           | will use some third-party solution instead.
        
             | mystifyingpoi wrote:
             | > where do you keep secret.txt
             | 
             | Reminds me of using Ansible Vault and preciously encrypting
             | every secret (so we can say that repos doesn't contain any
             | secrets), then just putting ~/.vault_pass in plaintext on
             | every Ansible controller to be taken by anyone with access
             | to the servers.
        
               | alexpotato wrote:
               | The author of AGE has a great point in the below blog
               | post [0]:                   If you use something like
               | SOPS or just check age secrets into a git repository next
               | to source code, you need an authentication story for the
               | whole repository. Having authentication for the secrets
               | will do nothing if the attacker can change the source
               | code that decrypts and uses them.              That story
               | can simply be "we trust GitHub" like most projects.
               | Encrypting secrets with age will keep them confidential
               | even if the project is Open Source, and anyone wanting to
               | replace them will have to make a PR even if they can
               | generate a new valid age file.
               | 
               | 0 - https://words.filippo.io/age-authentication/
        
             | jcynix wrote:
             | >where do you keep secret.txt exactly?
             | 
             | Hidden. Encrypted. And the passphrase is: at 5,21 which is
             | the 5th line on page 21 of your favorite book. Which you
             | have more than one copy of, because you like it that much.
             | And you need copies to lend. Or you have the PDF from
             | Gutenberg.org?
             | 
             | And 5/21 might be the birthday of your first child, or your
             | wedding day, or whatever?
             | 
             | It might be a favorite quote, like "Those who would give up
             | essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety,
             | deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Augmented by the above
             | date if needed?
        
               | smsm42 wrote:
               | Hidden where? Are you writing it on a post-it and putting
               | it on top of your screen? Are you keeping it in your
               | wallet? In a safe? What if you lose it or your house is
               | flooded?
               | 
               | > And 5/21 might be the birthday of your first child, or
               | your wedding day, or whatever?
               | 
               | How sure are you that you'd remember all that scheme for
               | 20 years? How about 50 years? Some documents may be
               | relevant for a very long time. What about if you need
               | more than one key? What about if you need to give access
               | to one document to specific set of persons?
               | 
               | Once you consider all the scenarios that can happen
               | through a lifetime, you start to understand why managing
               | all those complexities correctly is not trivial. And
               | that's why people pay third parties to do it for them.
               | It's not because encrypting a bag of bytes is hard. It's
               | because of all the things that surround it.
        
               | raincole wrote:
               | > And the passphrase is: at 5,21 which is the 5th line on
               | page 21 of your favorite book
               | 
               | Yeah, it's one of those things that you'll forget in N
               | years. That's exactly what prompted "where do you keep
               | secret.txt" question.
        
               | jcynix wrote:
               | As of now I have to care for my (digital) backups, that
               | is, I cannot ignore them for N years. I had to copy
               | things from discettes to magnetic tape, from tape to hard
               | drives, etc. I have to periodically check my backups if
               | they are restorable. That's life.
               | 
               | It's the same for documents, as for secrets, which I have
               | to transfer from one medium to another, I have to check
               | that I remember secrets and passphrases. And places. As I
               | already said, that's life.
        
             | disambiguation wrote:
             | The double entendre occurred to me, I don't disagree.
             | 
             | But the relative ease does not merely apply to users, but
             | to the barrier of entry for alt products as well.
             | 
             | Consider that the current paradigm is contingent on the
             | "blind trust" users have held in tech for a long time. It's
             | possible that a new kind of app will thrive in a different
             | paradigm.
             | 
             | For example, is there any reason we couldn't have a simple
             | "message wrapper" which only sends encrypted payloads via
             | SMS or Email and decrypts on the fly in a secure sandbox?
             | Easy for the user and hard to regulate.
        
         | cmsj wrote:
         | Yes, but you'll have to trust that they haven't been issued a
         | secret government order to implement a backdoor.
         | 
         | Not all of those companies will loudly object in the way Apple
         | does.
        
         | lawlessone wrote:
         | >when you have time, clarity, and focus to do it.
         | 
         | i thought this a joke, lol
        
         | kakacik wrote:
         | On personal level, you have to choose whether your priority is
         | privacy or convenience. If its privacy, no whining about 'I
         | want this and that and I am too lazy to rollback' is relevant.
         | 
         | Never trust US services, 3-letter agencies are endlessly greedy
         | to fill your profile with another tens of thousands of data
         | points. As do all advertisers all around the globe. As do (with
         | various success) all other governments and private companies
         | who have something to gain, HDD storage has never been cheaper
         | and all personal data are worth gold and beyond.
         | 
         | Or if you have to use them, use your own encryption with
         | strength to not be broken for next few hundreds of years, to
         | stand a chance. That is, if you actually have something to
         | hide, but I have never met a person who really doesn't :)
        
         | isodev wrote:
         | Because no US corp can promise you true E2EE. Even an app like
         | Signal - are you sure the version you're getting from the App
         | Store is always the one with "unbreakable E2EE"?
        
           | bink wrote:
           | With Signal they provide a toolkit you can use to verify that
           | the checksum for your App Store download matches that of the
           | public build or one that you compile yourself.
           | 
           | edit: This is apparently currently not working for Apple and
           | MS builds.
           | 
           | https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-
           | Desktop/blob/main/reprod...
        
         | InTheArena wrote:
         | The first two are reasonable positions. The third, on the
         | merits of the argument in the article, is absolutely bonkers.
         | It's the UK government that is unleashing this stupidity on the
         | world. There is no European alternative that is any safer, and
         | it's the UK's own hands that are at fault in the first place.
         | 
         | Not that there aren't other reasons to be skeptical of American
         | companies' right, but it's just so easy to fall into
         | nationalistic prattle instead of fixing the real problem.
        
           | thewebguyd wrote:
           | > but it's just so easy to fall into nationalistic prattle
           | instead of fixing the real problem.
           | 
           | Right. This, right now, is 100% a UK problem. De-
           | Americanising your tech stack isn't going to fix the
           | political issues domestically. Hence Apple pulling ADP out,
           | they made the choice of not complying with the UK and not
           | offering the service instead of compromising the service for
           | everyone else in the world.
           | 
           | UK citizens need to direct their attention inwards against
           | their own government.
        
         | dpoloncsak wrote:
         | I'm sort of out of the loop as a US citizen....Does the UK
         | really have the ability to enforce every E2EE storage solution
         | on GitHub to comply?
         | 
         | Even if you monitor downloads, every VPN, every ISP..... can't
         | I copy paste the source code?
         | 
         | Isn't SFTP already E2EE? They're not going to come down on
         | SFTP....right? I really hope not...
        
           | mmh0000 wrote:
           | The simple answer is: Money.
           | 
           | If you're making money in the UK, they have a lot of legal
           | authority over you.
           | 
           | If you're based in the UK, they have a lot of legal authority
           | over you.
           | 
           | If you're neither of those things, they might complain, but
           | the actual consequences are close to nil.
           | 
           | And they're not banning the tools (this is arguable, but they
           | "can't" logically, as you point out). They're banning
           | businesses from providing the tools.
        
             | dpoloncsak wrote:
             | Thats reassuring...but still frightening, just less so I
             | guess.
             | 
             |  _Most_ of my homelab is self-hosted (Cloudflare and
             | Tailscale stop me short of saying it 's 100%, plus an
             | Oracle VPS for a Minecraft server if you count the WHOLE
             | stack I guess)...and you tell yourself its 'better to own
             | your own data' or whatever your personal mantra is, but
             | it's bizarre to see this play out
        
         | bob1029 wrote:
         | My new high-privacy, high-control data management solution
         | revolves around pen & paper. As far as I am aware, these
         | implements have not yet been banned in the UK.
         | 
         | I don't know why everything must be digital. If you don't put
         | it on a computer, it's almost as if it doesn't exist. If you do
         | this often enough, it is almost as if _you_ don 't exist.
        
           | alfiedotwtf wrote:
           | Party members were supposed not to go into ordinary shops
           | ('dealing on the free market', it was called), but the rule
           | was not strictly kept, because there were various things,
           | such as shoelaces and razor blades, which it was impossible
           | to get hold of in any other way. He had given a quick glance
           | up and down the street and then had slipped inside and bought
           | the book for two dollars fifty. At the time he was not
           | conscious of wanting it for any particular purpose. He had
           | carried it guiltily home in his briefcase. Even with nothing
           | written in it, it was a compromising possession.
           | 
           | The thing that he was about to do was to open a diary. This
           | was not illegal (nothing was illegal, since there were no
           | longer any laws), but if detected it was reasonably certain
           | that it would be punished by death, or at least by twenty-
           | five years in a forced-labour camp. Winston fitted a nib into
           | the penholder and sucked it to get the grease off. The pen
           | was an archaic instrument, seldom used even for signatures,
           | and he had procured one, furtively and with some difficulty,
           | simply because of a feeling that the beautiful creamy paper
           | deserved to be written on with a real nib instead of being
           | scratched with an ink-pencil. Actually he was not used to
           | writing by hand. Apart from very short notes, it was usual to
           | dictate everything into the speak-write which was of course
           | impossible for his present purpose. He dipped the pen into
           | the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had
           | gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive
           | act. In small clumsy letters he wrote:
           | 
           | April 4th, 1984.
        
           | mbirth wrote:
           | In the latest Janus Cycle video he explained how he started
           | carrying an IBM WorkPad c3 around to manage his contacts and
           | appointments. I found that a great idea for people like me
           | that struggle with deciphering their handwriting an hour
           | later.
        
             | burningChrome wrote:
             | I've thought of going back to a palm pilot for the same
             | thing. There are tons of Handspring and Palm Pilot Tungsten
             | versions on ebay for under $40.
             | 
             | I believe the Palm T2 and T3 had bluetooth so would be
             | interesting if you could connect the two to keep contacts
             | and appointments off your smartphone. I'm seeing Handspring
             | Treo 650's for under $100 as well.
        
         | smsm42 wrote:
         | It's not a backdoor per se. UK just banned using E2EE (at least
         | for Apple users' data). I don't think though they can ban E2EE
         | in general - like, if I upload a binary blob to a data store,
         | how would they know whether it's encrypted or not? Short of
         | banning all strong encryption completely (which even UK yet is
         | not stupid enough to do) it's not possible to prevent. But they
         | did not build a "backdoor" into encryption - they demanded
         | that, and Apple refused, so there's now no encryption at all
         | for UK users. There's no door.
         | 
         | They are just going for service providers that make E2EE easy
         | for users - clearly betting on the fact that people they want
         | to surveil would be too lazy/incompetent to use a custom
         | solution providing strong E2EE encryption. And they may be
         | right - most iphone users would keep using the same services
         | even with the knowledge that the data is now widely open - and
         | eventually of course will be breached and available to every
         | kind of criminal, as it happened many times already with other
         | massive data warehouses.
         | 
         | But I believe even is the UK you still can encrypt your own
         | backup and upload it, e.g., to rsync.net and nobody would be
         | able to stop you. Just most people won't.
        
         | EA-3167 wrote:
         | It seems like the real solution is de-UK'ing, a wise move for a
         | number of reasons. Move to the continent, to Ireland, or the US
         | (or Australia for that classic British expat experience), but
         | leave the sinking ship. Ideally the time to leave was when the
         | passport was still in the EU, but now is better than never.
        
         | celsoazevedo wrote:
         | Probably easy to do with a Mac, but iOS is a different
         | question. Way too restrictive if you don't use iCloud.
        
       | croemer wrote:
       | https://archive.is/8SI66 (to bypass HN hug of death)
        
       | sedatk wrote:
       | > You need to start that because, as we recently learned, at some
       | point in the very near future Apple is withdrawing its Advanced
       | Data Protection (ADP) feature from the UK altogether as a result
       | of the Home Office TCN through the Investigatory Powers Act.
       | 
       | So, a UK-only advice, and it strangely assumes that any other
       | service in UK wouldn't be bound by the same laws.
        
         | omnicognate wrote:
         | I can encrypt anything and store it in anything that provides
         | storage. Why are people acting like "end to end encryption" is
         | a feature you need a cloud service to provide to you. Rather
         | the opposite - it's really something you can only do yourself.
        
           | culi wrote:
           | Sure, but almost no one is managing their own keys and knows
           | enough about the various e2ee algorithms to make these
           | decisions on their own.
           | 
           | Do you know of a good piece of software or tool that lets a
           | layperson interface with any cloud storage provider?
        
             | jank199x wrote:
             | https://github.com/restic/restic
             | 
             | not exactly for a "layperson", to be honest, but easy
             | enough for someone familiar with a command line
        
             | Kerrick wrote:
             | The closest I've found is VeraCrypt, which is near the edge
             | of what I'd call layperson-friendly. But if you store a
             | VeraCrypt drive on the cloud, you'll need to re-upload the
             | entire encrypted file--usually quite large--every time you
             | change anything at all. That's a _lot_ of bandwidth, and
             | likely to be quite slow to sync.
        
           | ajsnigrutin wrote:
           | And you must then give the password to your data.
           | 
           | https://thblegal.com/news/can-i-be-prosecuted-for-failing-
           | to...
           | 
           | https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/in-
           | edicola/articoli/2025/01...
           | 
           | etc.
        
             | omnicognate wrote:
             | In the extremely unlikely event that I'm compelled to by a
             | judge, yes. Or if someone chooses to beat me with five
             | dollar wrench, of course. And even then A) it can't happen
             | without my knowledge and B) I have the option of refusing
             | and bearing the consequences.
             | 
             | I didn't say it solves every problem, just that it's the
             | only way to have proper end-to-end encryption.
        
             | hex4def6 wrote:
             | This seems like a job for a truecrypt style system. Either
             | you do it at a file-level, or you have it split into (say)
             | 10MB file chunks, and if you want to access a certain file
             | you have an encrypted local db that acts as a magic decoder
             | ring ("file test.csv is spread across CLOUD1.DB
             | CLOUD3443.DB CLOUD132.DB").
             | 
             | Combine that with steganography (Enter real_password, and
             | test.csv is a list of bank accounts, enter fake_password,
             | and test.csv is a list of apple store locations, enter
             | random_password, and it decodes junk). Maybe combine that
             | with multiple layers of passwords (one ring to rule them
             | all, except certain files).
             | 
             | Obviously, you'd want to steganographize the decoder ring
             | as well.
        
         | caconym_ wrote:
         | > So, a UK-only advice
         | 
         | So what?
         | 
         | > it strangely assumes that any other service in UK wouldn't be
         | bound by the same laws.
         | 
         | From the linked article:
         | 
         | > I'm not going to tell you where to move your stuff other than
         | to say that if you're moving it from one big tech company to
         | another, you're just being daft. Likewise, if you're moving
         | your stuff to a non-e2ee service, don't bother. If you need an
         | e2ee service try Proton. They have a Black Friday sale on.
        
           | sedatk wrote:
           | > So what?
           | 
           | The title felt like there was a greater issue with Apple
           | specifically. There wasn't. There was a greater issue with
           | the new UK laws and cloud storage systems. I think people
           | deserved a clarification before getting wound up about it
           | before reading the article.
        
             | caconym_ wrote:
             | The issue _is_ with Apple specifically in the sense that
             | they have been offering a superior E2EE cloud storage
             | service that will soon be denied to UK residents (IIUC,
             | E2EE isn 't offered by their competition e.g. Google,
             | Microsoft). But the article goes out of its way in its
             | first section to note that Apple isn't in the wrong at all
             | here:
             | 
             | > But I will say that the shutdown of ADP is Apple being on
             | the right side of the geopolitical fight, as inconvenient
             | as that may be to you and me.
             | 
             | It is, if you care about the issues the author evidently
             | cares about, "time to start de-Appling". I am a satisfied
             | ongoing customer of Apple and I didn't find this headline
             | to be the least bit inflammatory. It is, at worst, minor
             | clickbait--but it's not really bait at all, since the
             | contents of the article match the headline.
        
             | cmsj wrote:
             | FYI, this is not about a law, this is about a Technical
             | Capability Notice. This is a thing the UK government is
             | able to issue to a specific company or companies, that
             | require them to implement technical measures to enable data
             | collection. This applies only to the company/ies that the
             | notice is issued to.
             | 
             | That could be one of them, some of them or all of them, but
             | it's not really a law that automatically applies to all of
             | them.
        
               | sedatk wrote:
               | Everything a government does is about a law, but, even if
               | only Apple had received this notice, why would it change
               | the unfairness of singling out Apple? Did UK government
               | issue this request as their final request of this kind?
               | Did they forbid any further requests to be made? Did they
               | single out Apple out of something specific to Apple Inc
               | (or, say, United States) or did Apple happen to be just
               | too visible?
               | 
               | Singling out Apple in the article's title sends the wrong
               | message here. The author should have gone with something
               | along the lines of "UK residents should stop using E2EE
               | cloud services". Current title implies there might be a
               | safe E2EE service in the UK. Heck, they even claim that
               | in the article: "If you need an e2ee service try Proton"
               | as if Proton is exempt from getting a notice from the UK.
               | It's not.
        
             | smsm42 wrote:
             | Yes, it's nothing to do with Apple per se - any major E2E
             | provider would be under the same attack. The problem here
             | is UK government is drunk with power and doesn't want their
             | citizens to have any privacy rights, and UK citizens are
             | largely ok with that, as evidenced by them keeping to elect
             | such governments. Apple is just the most prominent target
             | of the attack - eventually, they will try to attack smaller
             | targets still, and make usage of the strong encryption as
             | hard as possible, maybe outlaw it completely and mandate
             | government key escrow. They already tried it in many
             | countries, and UK seems to be very ripe to try again.
        
               | jlokier wrote:
               | _> UK citizens are largely ok with that, as evidenced by
               | them keeping to elect such governments_
               | 
               | I don't think that's true. I think plenty of UK citizens
               | do want better privacy rights and data protection, as
               | evidenced by the very large petition against national ID
               | cards for example.
               | 
               | It doesn't win the vote because it's not the most
               | important factor when it comes to voting, because there
               | are bigger issues people care about more.
               | 
               | Many people are somewhat despondent, due to economic
               | decline, ever-increasing pressures and poor prospects for
               | so many people. There's no choice of party which
               | simultaneously supports privacy rights at the same time
               | as other things most UK citizens appear to care about
               | more, which can also survive the intense tactical voting
               | pressure under the FPTP voting system. Consider that most
               | people who voted Labour in the "landslide" last election
               | appear to have done it tactically to "get the Tories
               | out".
               | 
               | So issues like privacy which aren't at the top of
               | people's concerns, end up not having much influence over
               | voting decisions.
               | 
               | The Lib Dems and Greens are the nearest to that, imho. Of
               | the major parties, they seem the most aligned with
               | privacy rights in their DNA, as far as I can tell.
               | 
               | Reform are getting some political benefit from talking up
               | privacy at the moment, and they stand a real chance of
               | winning next time. But I doubt very much if Reform would
               | ever implement real privacy rights. I think it's just
               | opportunistic dodgy politician talk in their case, and
               | that real privacy isn't in their DNA at all, because they
               | don't believe in universality of human rights. They are
               | openly eager to remove the Human Rights Act and strip
               | many people of those rights, after all. Strong online
               | privacy also clashes with one of their core missions, to
               | find and deport vastly more people than before; privacy
               | clashes with that both on grounds of investigative
               | capabilities, and on grounds of principles and rights. I
               | could imagine Reform trying to offer strong privacy only
               | for approved citizens, alongside mandatory reporting on
               | other users, but the contradictions in that are too much.
        
         | graemep wrote:
         | > So, a UK-only advice
         | 
         | Not for long
        
         | kcartlidge wrote:
         | > _So, a UK-only advice, and it strangely assumes that any
         | other service in UK wouldn't be bound by the same laws._
         | 
         | I suspect it's because whilst other services _would_ be
         | affected we only know about Apple currently and, thanks to iOS
         | and Mac, a large percentage of the population will be using
         | Apple by default for the services impacted. Only Google
         | (Android) and Microsoft (Windows) really overlap in that
         | regard.
        
       | lloydatkinson wrote:
       | Just to clarify, she's advocating people stop using Apple, quite
       | literally the only big tech company with a slightly better focus
       | on privacy compared to all the others and with a reputation for
       | saying no to the latest authoritarian power grab by the UK
       | government?
        
         | syncsynchalt wrote:
         | No, she's saying that due to UK legislation that Apple will no
         | longer be allowed to offer e2ee and it's time to start moving
         | your data off of their cloud services before you're forced to
         | turn off ADP.
         | 
         | It's not an article about advocacy so much as the pragmatics an
         | upcoming data migration.
        
         | adammarples wrote:
         | Yes, she's advocating people stop using them for a few services
         | if they require e2ee for those services. Why? Because apple
         | will be removing e2ee for those services. She is also clearly
         | advocating not to use another big tech company for those
         | services. Source: TFA
        
       | ZebusJesus wrote:
       | Seeing as the UK is part of the 5 eyes alliance I wonder how long
       | until this is attempted in the other countries
        
       | tantalor wrote:
       | > Hi, I'm Heather Burns -- yes, that one.
       | 
       | Ok, I was going to ask, but taking "yes, that one" seriously I
       | suppose confirms the author is the actress Heather Burns best
       | known for playing the best friend role in a string of successful
       | romantic comedies.
       | 
       | https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0122688/
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Burns
       | 
       | Kind of weird to be reading some blog post about tech privacy
       | from such a well known actress.
       | 
       | Am I missing something?
        
         | dmbche wrote:
         | https://heatherburns.tech/
        
         | small_scombrus wrote:
         | > Am I missing something?
         | 
         | A joke? A fun tagline? A little zing for under the heading?
        
         | IncreasePosts wrote:
         | I wouldn't classify "best known for playing a side character in
         | some 90s movies" as a well known actress. Also, different
         | Heather Burns.
        
           | tantalor wrote:
           | I'd put her in the top 1% of actors.
        
             | IncreasePosts wrote:
             | She might be, but it might also be the case that there are
             | so many actors, to be "well known", you need to be in the
             | 0.001%
             | 
             | I probably have seen movies with her in it, but I have no
             | recollection of her as an actor. I did recognize her
             | husband as Samir from Office Space, though I couldn't tell
             | you his name.
        
         | ssbash wrote:
         | The author is a different Heather Burns from the actress.
         | 
         | https://heatherburns.tech/about/
         | 
         | If you scroll down you'll see an image of the author.
        
         | hvs wrote:
         | It's not that one.
        
       | joncrane wrote:
       | "-- yes, that one."
       | 
       | ? Who is this person?
        
         | 9rx wrote:
         | The person whom you went out of your way to reach out to.
        
       | numbers wrote:
       | just noticed your CSS has an issue on wide screens that cuts off
       | some of the words at the end of a line, here's the culprit:
       | 
       | ``` @media screen and (min-width: 1200px) { .site-content .entry-
       | content .wide-content, .alignwide, .alignfull { margin-right:
       | -34.0740%; } } ```
       | 
       | that margin-right is causing some of the content to move too far
       | to the right and gets hidden in `.entry-content`
        
       | nickcw wrote:
       | Very clever image and caption (right at the bottom of the page)
       | 
       | > Header image by me: Alan Turing memorial, Manchester, where he
       | reminds you why keeping data private can be a matter of life and
       | death.
       | 
       | The image shows a close up of a statue of Alan Turing, his hand
       | holding an apple.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Death
        
         | LeoPanthera wrote:
         | The very Wikipedia page you link explains in great detail why,
         | although we can never know for sure, it's actually unlikely
         | that he committed suicide, and more likely that his death was
         | an accident.
         | 
         | The suicide story will probably never go away, because it's
         | _too good_ a story. It fits so neatly into popular culture.
        
           | raincole wrote:
           | I read that section word by word and I honestly don't think
           | it "explains that it's actually unlikely that he committed
           | suicide." The opinions are diverse at best.
        
       | DeathArrow wrote:
       | Maybe people in UK should de-stupidify their politicians.
        
         | cmsj wrote:
         | It's doubtful that we can, the "good guys" are in power right
         | now.
        
         | odiroot wrote:
         | The two major parties are both supporters of the nanny state.
        
         | webdevver wrote:
         | the people are a lot stupider than the politicians. sorry but
         | it needs to be said.
         | 
         | as for the MPs, theyre ok. not as stupid as most think. they
         | are very self-interested and not in the business of 'rocking
         | the boat'. strongly prefer managed decline than any risk taking
         | that could result in things going sideways.
         | 
         | its easy to critique but truthfully the UK is structurally in a
         | dead end (well ok, maybe not... but it does feel that way). but
         | things could be a _lot_ worse, and many don 't appreciate that
         | reality. having clean tap water and paved roads is pretty damn
         | good for a country held up by fintech and scraps of last
         | century's industry.
         | 
         | people calling for reforms have no idea what they're in for.
         | Thankfully Reform was deployed together with Nigel Farage, God
         | bless him, rolled in to do narrative control and provide a safe
         | and controlled sponge for dissent. That guy is a 'fixer' for UK
         | political radicalism - every time the crowd starts to have
         | funny ideas, he magically appears and slowly but surely
         | everyone goes back to their PS32k/year jobs. I think he's
         | 'retired' from politics thrice now.
         | 
         | truthfully, nobody does politics better than the Brits. but
         | then again, they invented this game to begin with!
        
       | api wrote:
       | IMHO Apple is actually being honest here. They cannot legally
       | operate in the UK without providing a back door, _so they are
       | dropping the claim of ADP in the UK_. This is letting the user
       | know what 's up, and might also help inspire a backlash against
       | these laws. Apple needs to make it clear that they are being
       | forced by UK law to degrade service.
       | 
       | Corporations can't really resist governments unless they're not
       | operating in a given government's jurisdiction and therefore have
       | nothing to lose. They can take things to court, but in lieu of a
       | verdict or an injunction they have to comply with the law or they
       | can be fined, have assets frozen, be de-banked or banned from
       | processing payments, etc.
       | 
       | I'm sure there's services out there that will secretly comply and
       | still claim to be secure.
       | 
       | There's also a lot of companies that will simply abandon security
       | features like ADP or never develop them. Apple is going to the
       | trouble of disabling it only for UK people not everyone, instead
       | of just deprecating it. The latter would be less expensive and
       | expose them to less legal risk.
       | 
       | If you really want security in the UK now you have to roll your
       | own and do the encryption yourself. Honestly that's always the
       | best security, since you can never be 100% sure a closed cloud or
       | software vendor isn't messing with you.
        
       | api wrote:
       | Is it now effectively illegal in the UK for a company to provide
       | end-to-end encrypted services to users?
        
       | welder wrote:
       | Move away from the UK. This is a UK law forcing Apple to share
       | your data if you live in the UK.
        
       | surgical_fire wrote:
       | De-appling is easy. I just don't have anything from them. Apart
       | from the work laptop, but that is a problem for my employer, not
       | me.
       | 
       | De-googling however is extremely hard. I have been slowly
       | chipping away at it, but there are things I just have no decent
       | option to (such as Waze and Android Auto).
       | 
       | Android itself is another problem. I have high hopes for a
       | Graphene device.
        
         | whstl wrote:
         | De-Googling is also extremely easy, I haven't had a Google
         | account in 10 years, I use uBlock to block the ads, DuckDuckGo
         | for search and a Youtube app that downloads from it instead of
         | using the website.
         | 
         | Perhaps the only thing I use directly is Recaptcha.
         | 
         | The bigger problem is doing both.
        
           | celsoazevedo wrote:
           | It's easy to use a different calendar, search engine, etc,
           | but it's far from easy to use an Android device without
           | Google Services. Can be done, but banking apps, contactless
           | payments, etc, become painful or impossible.
        
       | 827a wrote:
       | > Apple cannot disable ADP automatically for these users
       | 
       | Extremely interesting.
        
         | odo1242 wrote:
         | ADP means that you own the encryption key to the data and Apple
         | can't access it, so Apple being able to turn ADP off by itself
         | would invalidate the whole point of the system.
        
           | 827a wrote:
           | In theory, sure, but that theory surviving practice (e.g. a
           | G20 government bearing against it) is meaningful. E.g. they
           | could push an OS update to automatically turn off ADP for
           | impacted users, but they aren't.
        
       | 0manrho wrote:
       | > We are all liabilities to our own opsec now.
       | 
       | Always have been.
       | 
       | It's unfortunate that gross government overreach and corporate
       | cooperation with it is what it takes for people to even recognize
       | the concept of data privacy and data ownership is a thing, much
       | less that they should do something about it and that their data
       | is and never was "safe" in the cloud, no matter which corporate
       | overlords walled garden you called home. Apple has never been an
       | exception to this rule.
        
       | joshstrange wrote:
       | On a 1700px or wider screen your text is cut off on the right-
       | hand side: https://cs.joshstrange.com/BB60xzBW
        
       | isodev wrote:
       | > please make sure you de-Apple, de-Google, and de-American Stack
       | yourself when you have time, clarity, and focus to do it. Start
       | today.
       | 
       | That's the message. It's high time. We can what-about-argume
       | about what's E2EE and what Apple "pinky promises" isn't used or
       | sold but the reality is that anything seated in the US may as
       | well be a publicly open http for the right buyer (be it the US
       | government, Saudi Arabia, Israel or whatever...)
       | 
       | Especially if you're in charge of customer data, you can't "just"
       | setup something on a EU server if the corp is based in the US,
       | those days are over now. You need to do the legwork.
        
       | peterspath wrote:
       | Maybe it is better to de-tech a bit. Go back to some older
       | decentralised stuff.
       | 
       | Like buy cd's and blu-rays instead of digital/drm
       | locked/streaming service shit. Be an owner again instead of a
       | renter.
        
         | jckahn wrote:
         | It's all fun and games until you learn that physical media has
         | a limited shelf life.
        
           | peterspath wrote:
           | so does digital..
        
           | Klonoar wrote:
           | It's why you archive the things you buy on physical media.
        
       | phendrenad2 wrote:
       | You can de-Google, de-Apple, de-Microsoft, de-bank, de-whatever,
       | go live off-grid in a thatched hut in Sherwood Forest. But the
       | government will spy on you all the same.
        
       | ebbi wrote:
       | Taking inspiration from the East India Company, Apple should
       | colonize the UK and take over the government - the iGovernment,
       | if you will.
       | 
       | Citizens will regain their right to e2ee privacy, they will not
       | have to deal with voting for mediocre politicians to lead them.
       | Instead, Tim Cook will be their new leader, and every morning
       | over the mandatory installation of HomePods in each home,
       | citizens will be greeted with an ecstatic "Good morning!" to get
       | them energized for the day ahead.
       | 
       | Voting will be done via iPhones, where FaceID will verify the
       | eligibility of the voter before the vote has been submitted.
        
         | dan-robertson wrote:
         | Either way we're totally cooked
        
           | rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
           | Tim Cook'd
        
         | sargun wrote:
         | I have wondered why the likes of McKinsey, KPMG, and PWC do not
         | put up candidates (don't even sponsor them, just say you're
         | electing _well known consultancy_).
        
           | ebbi wrote:
           | "Here is my 300 slide pack to explain why you should vote for
           | me"
        
           | dan-robertson wrote:
           | 1. Why would McKinsey etc be interested in a well-functioning
           | government? Best argument I have is that if the economy grows
           | then government (and private) spending on consulting may
           | grow.
           | 
           | 2. Note that the consulting firms already managed to get the
           | legislation they most cared about - creation of the LLP as a
           | kind of entity - despite not having any candidates
           | 
           | 3. If the government is too associated with a big consultancy
           | then (a) they may be pressured out of giving them contracts
           | (not good for McKinsey!) and (b) failures by that consultancy
           | will be highlighted more than usual in the news (also not
           | good!)
           | 
           | 4. I mean plenty of people would go through the consultancy
           | meat-grinder before becoming politicians. If you are training
           | juniors to think similarly then that may carry over after
           | they leave.
        
       | tristor wrote:
       | Maybe this was intentional by the author to annoy Mac users, but
       | the word/line wrapping is broken on the latest Firefox on the
       | latest macOS: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15;
       | rv:144.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/144.0
        
       | raincole wrote:
       | > > Otherwise, please make sure you de-Apple, de-Google, and de-
       | American Stack yourself when you have time, clarity, and focus to
       | do it. Start today.
       | 
       | So American companies are complying UK laws, and the conclusion
       | is that UK citizens should "de-American"...?
       | 
       | Am I reading it wrong?
        
         | hunterpayne wrote:
         | No, you got it right. Anti-Americanism is one of the few
         | canards that the UK government can use as a boogieman to force
         | through their most questionable policies.
         | 
         | One of the most shocking things about Europe when I have
         | visited is what your average European (or Brit, since I guess
         | they don't call themselves European anymore) thinks the US is
         | like (even ignoring politics, just basic standard of living
         | stuff). They've never been and probably will never be able to
         | visit so all they know is what they've been told. When they do
         | visit, they return with a much poorer opinion of how their
         | country is doing. That's why the "I was lied to..." clickbait
         | is so common in European made US travel videos now.
        
       | bnastic wrote:
       | Isn't Apple taking UK gov't to court over this, and the reason
       | they have abandoned encryption for everybody is to avoid being
       | forced to provide backdoors. On this you should be on their side,
       | not against them.
        
       | bdcravens wrote:
       | Apparently she's so thoroughly de-Googled and de-Appled that the
       | page doesn't display correctly on Chrome on MacOS on my machine,
       | cutting off part of the text on the right margin (manages to
       | render correctly if I resize the window to a smaller width
       | however)
        
       | NoSalt wrote:
       | I do not believe she is, in fact, "that one".
       | 
       | https://www.google.com/search?q=heather+burns
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Burns
        
         | skrebbel wrote:
         | It's a joke
        
       | jlokier wrote:
       | From the article, I'm suprised at this unusual twist:
       | 
       |  _> What about that second TCN?_
       | 
       |  _> On the 1st of October, the Home Office issued a second TCN
       | against Apple for the same as before, but only for_ _British
       | citizens'_ data. _World-leading!_
       | 
       |  _> Those who follow my work know that this phrase made me spew a
       | double barrel of Glaswegian swearing. British citizens' data, as
       | opposed to British users' data? The dividing line here is not
       | e.g. being located in the UK or having registered an account
       | here, but what it says on your passport? How is Apple going to
       | know that, much less roll it out? ( /s)_
       | 
       |  _> Did Apple just publicly state that they're going to be
       | removing a security layer and adding a nationality check layer?_
       | 
       |  _> We don't know._
       | 
       |  _> We don't know because as with the first TCN, that information
       | only became available in the public domain due to someone leaking
       | it to the media. That's all there is to know. Everything else is
       | confidential and NCND. There is nothing else to say because
       | nothing else is known. If someone who did know something was
       | sitting across from me right now, and they told me, they would be
       | committing a crime._
       | 
       | Does that mean my non-UK citizen friends who are resident in the
       | UK now have better privacy rights than UK citizens in the UK?
       | Does it mean it's _better_ to remain only a resident, than to
       | attempt to obtain citizenship in the long run?
        
       | mattrad wrote:
       | UK Govt. stupidity aside, Apple could allow iOS users to switch
       | their backup provider from iCloud to other services or backup
       | targets. But they won't because they want to continue to grow
       | their services revenue.
        
       | tammer wrote:
       | Recent history of Apple vs. sovereign states is a real time
       | vindication of Polanyi. Capital is always subordinate to the
       | state (even if it proclaims to be the opposite).
        
         | stOneskull wrote:
         | > Capital is always subordinate to the state
         | 
         | the international monetary fund has every state in debt. some
         | third-world countries become subordinate to it, not even being
         | able to pay the interest payments.
        
       | sitzkrieg wrote:
       | apple privacy has always been marketing
        
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