[HN Gopher] YouTube Removes Windows 11 Bypass Tutorials, Claims ...
___________________________________________________________________
YouTube Removes Windows 11 Bypass Tutorials, Claims 'Risk of
Physical Harm'
Author : WaitWaitWha
Score : 842 points
Date : 2025-11-07 20:50 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (news.itsfoss.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.itsfoss.com)
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| [dupe] More discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45744503
| bigwheels wrote:
| _YouTube is taking down videos on performing nonstandard
| Windows 11 installs_
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45744503 - 9 days ago, 497
| comments
| brulard wrote:
| Although the reason was absurd, videos were eventually restored.
| superxpro12 wrote:
| TBH the title is clickbait given the outcome.
| fortran77 wrote:
| And we see how many people here on HN don't read the article.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Are you arguing that - the videos haven't
| been removed - the removal part of the story
| doesn't matter much, and shouldn't be the focus in the title
| ?
| im3w1l wrote:
| Isn't the damage done though? Like if they were down at the
| time when people were told that win10 reached end of support
| and it's time to get on 11 does it matter that they are up now?
|
| Anyway I doubt youtube did this intentionally, but it does show
| how vulnerable their system is to false reports.
| bbarnett wrote:
| But did someone on Microsoft's pay, a Google employee with
| elevated access, flag it?
| lazide wrote:
| DMCA has always been buried in false reports. Every system
| gets gamed, and this is a particularly easy one to do so
| with.
| superkuh wrote:
| The point is to prevent viral videos from getting widely viewed
| during their peak. To cut it off. It doesn't matter if the
| block is removed some days or weeks later and then there's a
| trickle of traffic. This is the status quo for corporations
| that wish to suppress content on Alphabet's platforms. Another
| well known recent example is Forbes attacks on Gamer's Nexus
| investigative documentary on the GPU black market that competed
| with their video.
| rs186 wrote:
| > Rich appealed both immediately. The first appeal was denied in
| 45 minutes. The second in just five.
|
| > The platform claimed its "initial actions" (could be either the
| first takedown or appeal denial, or both) were not the result of
| automation.
|
| Didn't know YouTube can improve their review time from 45 minutes
| to 5 minutes without automation. I bet it's pure magic.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| I'm sure someone is figuring out a new version of the DMCA that
| prohibits circumventing data collection "in the name of
| preserving copyright".
| ronsor wrote:
| If the DRM can't spy on you, you could be a pirate!
| dlgeek wrote:
| I mean... documenting the details of the investigation to
| support the first decision and relying on the documented
| details the second time would easily explain that.
| baobun wrote:
| I would love but probably be horrified to see the documented
| support for "serious physical harm or death".
| cortesoft wrote:
| I am reading that to mean that they are automatically denying
| the appeals because it was a human who chose to take the action
| so it can't be appealed.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| Risk of physical harm? Should I perceive that as a... threat?
| twelvedogs wrote:
| Satya Nadella will kick in your door
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| The sci-fi movies warn us about evil robots. Turns out the evil
| entity was Microsoft and other big tech companies all along
| throw262144 wrote:
| Indeed; those who are worried about the possibility of
| paperclip optimizers should take a look at the profit
| optimizers that exist today.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| You see, Windows 11 has new, improved, patented prevent-the-
| computer-from-physically-beating-up-the-user technology. But
| this technology requires an online account; you can't trust a
| local-only account to prevent the computer from beating you up,
| _because it 's on the computer in question_ (duh). So we
| prevent you from learning how to bypass the requirement for a
| remote account for your own physical safety.
|
| /s, in case that wasn't _blatantly_ obvious...
| 1000100_1000101 wrote:
| Perhaps someone at Microsoft threatened physical harm to a
| Google engineer if they didn't remove the videos... and they
| caved into their demands rather than reporting the threat, or
| perhaps did both.
| pndy wrote:
| Perceive that as being hit in szczepionke /s
| system2 wrote:
| What's next? Utilman.exe tutorials removal?
| g42gregory wrote:
| Unfortunately, this brings an obvious question:
|
| If they sensor something like this, how could we trust platforms
| with the actually important subjects?
| nicce wrote:
| We can't anymore. Simple as that.
| damnesian wrote:
| we put way too much faith in them. It's easy to fake
| authoritative when your substance is virtual.
| lazide wrote:
| lol, the evening news was always a laugh if you knew
| anything about the subject matter.
| zahlman wrote:
| Suppose we hadn't done so; what alternative method of
| disseminating information might we have used, that would
| have had within a few orders of magnitude of the same
| reach?
| squigz wrote:
| The implication here is that YouTube enabled the reach it
| got; whereas in reality the reach was induced because of
| the faith we put in it. Had we not done so, then whatever
| alternative method of communication we did put our faith
| in - like blog posts, or self-hosting videos - would have
| had the same reach.
| pdonis wrote:
| I agree with this except for the "anymore" part. We _never_
| could trust them. It just wasn 't as obvious before as it is
| now.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| We will anyway because the "put a camera directly on those
| in power" approach ala CSPAN is boring.
|
| Most Americans literally can't imagine news as anything
| other than entertainment.
| pimlottc wrote:
| *censor
| reactordev wrote:
| You can't.
| vlucas wrote:
| You can't, and this was readily apparent in 2020 with Covid.
| Even doctors presenting factual information got censored and
| de-platformed by YouTube.
|
| The only real competing video platform that promises no
| censorship is Rumble ( https://rumble.com ), but it has a
| _very_ right-wing slant due to conservatives flocking to it
| during all the Covid-era social media censorship.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Yeah the moment they started I knew it was doomed to fail.
| Get it wrong once and your credibility is ruined. They should
| have never tried to censor content outside of what is legally
| required and therefore defined.
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| I kind of agree but laws vary from countries to countries.
| It's quite an hassle to know what is legal in one country
| and not in another.
|
| Take freedom of speech for instance, half the thing you can
| say in usa would be deemed as hate speech in Europe.
| autoexec wrote:
| I looked at the front page alone and it's full of right wing
| hot takes and neo-nazis. If a platform wants to accept white-
| supremacists that's one thing. When it's right on their front
| page though it's being actively promoted.
|
| Rumble isn't going to save the internet.
| myko wrote:
| Right, it is explicitly a neo-Nazi platform
| krapp wrote:
| >Right, it is explicitly a neo-Nazi platform
|
| We call those "free speech" platforms nowadays, because
| apparently the only free speech is Nazi speech.
| treyd wrote:
| It's because the only valid argument nazis have for why
| they should be allowed to broadcast what they have to say
| is that (in most jurisdictions) it's not literally
| illegal to.
| MYEUHD wrote:
| If you want to avoid censorship, self-host Peertube and have
| peave of mind.
| davidmurdoch wrote:
| That's just self censorship, since no one will see your
| videos there
| layer8 wrote:
| You can do both.
| zahlman wrote:
| > promises no censorship... has a very right-wing slant
|
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-
| conservativ...
|
| > The moral of the story is: if you're against witch-hunts,
| and you promise to found your own little utopian community
| where witch-hunts will never happen, your new society will
| end up consisting of approximately three principled civil
| libertarians and seven zillion witches. It will be a terrible
| place to live _even if witch-hunts are genuinely wrong._
| stOneskull wrote:
| odysee is similar but maybe with more of an
| anarchist/conspiracy theory slant than rumble
| Simulacra wrote:
| We can't. From COVID to wars, YouTube is like public access TV
| from the 80s with scam preachers. We have to take it with a
| bucket of salt.
| portaouflop wrote:
| This implies we could ever trust them.
| Magnets wrote:
| like they did during COVID
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > trust platforms
|
| Framing it in terms of trust is already problematic.
|
| We don't trust the NYTimes or Washington Post, they are a
| source of information that needs to be taken with shovels of
| salt and require additional research to get to anything
| trustworthy. And we always understood that was their role.
|
| We don't trust supermarkets or retailers to give us important
| pricing information, we do the research to get anything
| actionable.
|
| Why is trust involved for YouTube ?
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Because unlike NYT or Washington post, anybody can upload a
| video in seconds, which implies a reasonable level of freedom
| of speech.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| How is freedom of speech lead to trust? it's more the
| opposite, when it's free for all anyone can lie and have
| their lie amplified.
| lawn wrote:
| They removed hundreds of videos documenting Israel's human
| rights violations.
|
| The answer is no, we can't.
| yard2010 wrote:
| We can't and we shouldn't, these people only care about making
| more money, even if it means teenagers contracting diseases in
| the process. They are then using the money to shape the public
| opinion about them. The societal norms should change in a way
| that makes these people miserable the more they are successful
| IMHO.
| port11 wrote:
| I'm not even sure I know who Billie Eilish really is but she
| was all over Reddit for telling billionaires to donate their
| money.
|
| More or less, the charitable and responsible approach to
| being ultra-rich, and which has disappeared in this century.
|
| I see the people in charge of these big corporations as
| lizards, given every decision they take seems to be anti-
| Humanity. We should cherish non-profits, small businesses,
| having a good and boring life, doing normal things. Instead
| we idolise being successful, rich, or famous. What a stupid
| system...
| npteljes wrote:
| Did we ever trust them?
| Madmallard wrote:
| Why is this allowed to occur?
|
| Why is Microsoft allowed to operate in such a user hostile way?
|
| Why aren't people like up in arms massively tanking their stock
| value, boycotting, reputation harming in every legal way possible
| en masse?
|
| Like are people just careless and distracted 24/7?
|
| Like surely this should just not be a thing?
|
| I just don't understand how inhumane hostile behavior is just so
| rampant and like allowed to exist in our society.
| mostlysimilar wrote:
| Because the only mechanism to hold these mega corporations /
| billionaires accountable is government, and they're already
| powerful enough to have waged massive information wars
| convincing people to fight each other instead of them.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| Eventually, enough is enough.
|
| 1789.
| immibis wrote:
| That's actually not the only way we can hold them to account.
| pants2 wrote:
| Why should I care that much what Microsoft is doing? I sold my
| Windows 11 computer long ago and haven't looked back. In fact,
| more user-hostile they get the better that is for the Linux
| ecosystem which is better for me!
| 1718627440 wrote:
| I think it will be better with a little bit higher
| marketshare, but once the masses come in they demand stuff
| like kernel-level anticheat, DRM and to never accidentally
| run things in a terminal and then it will become way worse.
| Linux is as user-friendly as it is, because it is used by
| professionals and power users and the masses use something
| else.
| daveguy wrote:
| That's why we have different distributions. Let one of the
| distributions cater to those who don't want control of
| their own computer.
| 1718627440 wrote:
| Yes, and this is how a healthy OS market should look
| like, but a lot of distros use the same kernel.
| tux1968 wrote:
| Linux can exist because there is a huge industry producing
| inexpensive open hardware. If that industry transitions to
| producing only locked down hardware, it will hurt Linux and
| all open source software. Be careful what you wish for.
| marcyb5st wrote:
| Because people like my mom don't know there is an alternative
| and people like my dad thinks OSS has ties to communism
| (really, I wish I was joking) and MacOS is for hipsters.
| Doesn't matter that I work for a FAANG company and we use and
| contribute to OSS or that my work laptop is a Mac.
| bitwize wrote:
| Wait... OSS doesn't have ties to communism?
|
| Then what have I been using and supporting it for?
| WXLCKNO wrote:
| Bit beside the point but Windows 11 is the first version since
| Windows 3.1 that I haven't used.
|
| Nuked my Windows 10 install and put Pop OS on it + a MacBook
| separately.
| noir_lord wrote:
| I've dual booted since the 90's and have run Microsoft OS's
| somewhere since the 80's.
|
| I _had_ Windows 11 (kept it around for gaming), I binned it a
| few weeks ago.
|
| Don't game enough to justify it any more (haven't even tried
| gaming on linux yet).
|
| Juice was no longer worth the squeeze.
| saubeidl wrote:
| Gaming on Linux is quite good these days, as long as you
| don't need any kernel-level anticheat for multiplayer.
|
| Proton is an impressive piece of software.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Bazzite baybeeeee
| elzbardico wrote:
| I don't game much, but as a parent, we have both a ps5 and a
| xbox. Frankly, console graphics are good enough for me. I
| don't see much point in having a gaming PC.
|
| Actually, I would trade visuals for better games. Most games
| nowadays are better enjoyed as movies than games.
| golemotron wrote:
| And now 'physical' becomes as hyperbolized as 'violence.'
| phkahler wrote:
| No, "physical harm".
| Supermancho wrote:
| A small step. Some of us have seen it weaponized in my
| lifetime, some think it's ridiculous until it's not.
| shevy-java wrote:
| Google censors the world, together with Microsoft.
|
| Well - it is time that the rest of the world censors these two
| corporation. I don't want them to restrict information.
|
| People will find workarounds by the way. This is now a Streisand
| effect - as people see that Google and Microsoft try to hide
| information from them, they will now look at this much more
| closely than before, with more attention.
|
| (Having said that, my bypass strategy is to not use Windows 11
| altogether. I don't depend on it, having used Linux since 21
| years now, but my machine to the left is actually using Win10,
| for various reasons, such as that I can fix problems of elderly
| relatives still using Windows. But I won't use Win11 ever with
| its recall-spy software. I also don't care that it can be
| disabled - any corporation that tries to sniff-invade on me, is
| evil and must be banned.)
|
| Edit: Ok so the video was restored. That was good, but still, we
| need an alternative here. Google holds WAY too much power via
| youtube.
| tacker2000 wrote:
| Also Visa/Mastercard are big silencers...
| hammock wrote:
| What do you mean?
| worthless-trash wrote:
| Possibly referring to them pressuring companies from
| selling adult contact they dont like by threatening to cut
| off payment capability.
| dns_snek wrote:
| Payments providers engage in censorship and moral policing,
| e.g.
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/29/mastercard-
| vis...
| tacker2000 wrote:
| The first instance that I remember was when they stopped
| Wikileaks from taking donations back then.
|
| Nowadays they censor by putting pressure (by denying
| payment capabilities) on sites that offer content that they
| dont agree with.
| stevenjgarner wrote:
| I realize crypto has become dominated by the investment
| community, but money is not just a store of value. As a
| medium of exchange, fiat currencies use money to implement
| monetary policy and control. Electronic exchange of fiat
| currency is a permission based activity, and significant
| transactions are simply disallowed and users often
| debanked. You don't have to wait for a monetary system to
| collapse before crypto has meaningful value. That value can
| come from simply not being subject to corrupt monetary
| policies and control.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > This is now a Streisand effect - as people see that Google
| and Microsoft try to hide information from them
|
| This comment section is wild.
|
| The videos are up. Microsoft and Google weren't meeting in
| secret backrooms to censor this one channel. The most likely
| explanation is that a competing channel was trying to move
| their own videos up in the rankings by mass-reporting other
| videos on the topic.
|
| It's a growing problem on social media platforms: Cutthroat
| channels or influencers will use alt accounts or even paid
| services to report their competition. They know that with
| enough reports in a short period of time they can get the
| content removed for a while, which creates a window for their
| own content to get more views.
|
| The clue is the "risk of physical harm". People who abuse the
| report function know that the report options involving physical
| harm, violence, or suicide are the quickest way to get content
| taken down.
| bithead wrote:
| Either that or microsoft and/or google will send someone to
| my house to Raymond Reddington my ass if I install W11 with
| only a local account.
| silisili wrote:
| A tale as old as time. A long time ago I worked in DDoS
| prevention and the bulk of our first customers were competing
| gambling sites and online eyeglass retailers.
|
| Why? Because they were all paying people to DDoS each other.
| Kinda silly, but good for business.
| neuvarius wrote:
| Eyeglass retailers are scum of the earth so no surprises
| there.
| worthless-trash wrote:
| As I have limited dealings with eyeglass retailers, why ?
| ornornor wrote:
| Selling a 2$ piece of metal wire and a 15$ lens of
| polycarbonate for obscene markups.
|
| It's also a monopoly, luxottica owns practically all
| brands and dictates the prices.
| jachee wrote:
| Zenni Optical is the antidote. Even my too-blind-for-
| Zeiss-VisionPro-inserts prescription in the highest
| refractive index lenses is under $100 for a full pair.
| silisili wrote:
| The landscape is a little different now than then.
|
| At the time(and really, even now) people would get their
| eyeglasses from their local provider. Who cares,
| insurance probably covers some or all of it. Even getting
| contacts or glasses as a prescription was like pulling
| teeth, since they wanted to keep it in house.
|
| So the new market of get your prescription, then buy
| online was born. And it was like the wild west, not full
| of eye care professionals but...mostly less than above
| board places all fighting for your click.
|
| Think about it...if you finally decide to Google eyeglass
| frames or such, you were entering a whole new realm. And
| why fight over SEO, when you can just take your
| competition offline, as most people will click a link,
| watch it load for 5s, then click back and try the next.
|
| I have no idea if the industry is still shady or not, but
| 20 years ago, it was full of nothing but bad actors.
|
| I don't know if it matters at all to the conversation or
| not, but none of the actors(gambling or eyeglasses) were
| based in the US, despite their domain names and courting
| US customers. The DDoS company was based in the US.
| estebarb wrote:
| Just a reminder that "insurance covers" doesn't mean
| society doesn't pay for it: all the people pay for it.
| The insurance company paying causes prices raises for
| everyone else, same country and abroad. So the whole
| world ends up paying more for that "insurance coverage":
| more for the product, more for the insurance, more in
| taxes that fund public free healthcare...
| zugi wrote:
| > Who cares, insurance probably covers some or all of it
|
| Exactly, this is why vision "insurance" is basically a
| scam, supported only by US tax laws that enable employers
| to offer vision "insurance" tax-free, while people buying
| their own eyeglasses have to pay with after-tax dollars.
|
| Except where insanely inflated, glasses cost at most tens
| of dollars. Certainly not the kind of thing one needs
| insurance to cover.
| kees99 wrote:
| > 2$ and 15$
|
| That estimate is way to high. More like 90 eurocents
| (~$1) for the whole thing, assembled. That's retail
| price:
|
| https://www.action.com/de-de/search/?q=lesebrillen
| skrebbel wrote:
| I never thought I'd live to see the day a link to Action
| got posted on HN but alas, it has arrived! Show those
| Dollar General losers across the pond how it's really
| done
| nativeit wrote:
| lol. Available languages include 4 kinds of Dutch/German,
| 3 kinds of French, 2 kinds of Netherlands, 2 kinds of
| Swiss, 1 kind of Spanish, and no English. Really defined
| their market, I suppose.
| lukan wrote:
| Seems to cover most of EU languages. So that seems to be
| the market. Though switzerland is not part of the EU. But
| the no english option is weird as hell, as english is
| more and more lingua franca in europe.
|
| (swiss is not its own language btw. but italian, german
| and french)
| nutjob2 wrote:
| Action is awesome. Shopping there you quickly realize
| that almost everyone (except Action) is selling junk from
| China that they bought for pennies at huge markups.
| braiamp wrote:
| The problem here is that companies seems to not be the wiser
| to such tactics and creators are left holding the bag by such
| aggression.
| lazide wrote:
| The law doesn't allow companies to do anything other than
| what they are doing.
| 10000truths wrote:
| They are absolutely aware of these sorts of abuses. I'll
| bet my spleen that it shows up as a line item in the
| roadmapping docs of their content integrity/T&S teams.
|
| The root problem is twofold: the inability to reliably
| automate distinguishing "good actor" and "bad actor", and a
| lack of will to throw serious resources at solving the
| problem via manual, high precision moderation.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| Content hosts are damned if they do and damned if they
| don't. If they take their time and are cautious with
| reports, people end up swamped with garbage that people
| complain about. If they try to be quick to clean up the
| garbage, some clean stuff get caught and people complain.
|
| The only frequent obvious problem I see is Youtube not
| telling people why their videos get hidden or taken down or
| down ranked. Long time creators get left in the dark from
| random big changes to the platform that could be solved
| with an email.
| andrepd wrote:
| In the olden days this would simply be solved by...
| having customer support befitting the size of the
| company. Of course nowadays that's "inneficient".
|
| We have companies with _billions_ of customers but
| smaller customer service than a mid-sized retailer from
| the 90s. Something is not right.
| throwaway743 wrote:
| This is the problem.
|
| IME it's especially bad with Admob. They've purposefully
| kept their email contact option broken for years and the
| only "help" you can access is from their forum, which is
| the absolute worst and never provides any meaningful
| resolutions. It's awful.
| immibis wrote:
| Companies listen to small claims lawsuits.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| Google, Facebook etc does have support for some
| customers. If you have a $10m a year advertising account
| with them I'm sure you'll have an account manager.
|
| People posting on these sites as content creators aren't
| customers.
| ghssds wrote:
| What became of the old ruse of simply not listening to
| contents that one find objectionable? Now it needs to be
| nuked from orbit yesterday to make sure nobody's pure
| eyes glance at it.
| immibis wrote:
| The world got more connected and we all had to suffer the
| consequences of other people consuming propaganda, so we
| decided it should be banned, except for the ones who
| consume it, who decided the same process should be used
| to ban reality and only allow propaganda.
| crooked-v wrote:
| The problem I see with that attitude is that it's excusing
| companies with immense profits from having even the tiniest
| modicum of actual human review for things.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| As long as the bad behavior is profitable, platforms aren't
| going to fix it: https://www.cnbc.com/2025/11/06/meta-
| reportedly-projected-10...
| rezonant wrote:
| Stop making so much sense
| blueboo wrote:
| In certain niches, the marginal value of kneecapping the
| competition exceeds the viable budget for counteracting
| gaming. It may be a quirk of this reality's hyperparameters
| that a UGC media monopoly inevitably suffers from this. Or
| maybe at a certain point it hits their bottom line and better
| enforcement is contrived.
| fastily wrote:
| > They know that with enough reports in a short period of
| time they can get the content removed for a while
|
| This can be accomplished with bogus dmca notices too. Since
| google gets such a high volume of notices the default action
| is just to shoot first and ask questions later. Alarmingly,
| there are 0 consequences (financial or legal) for sending
| bogus dmca notices
| chii wrote:
| it is a weapon the music industry wanted, but now has this
| unintended consequence.
|
| I think it's high time google stopped acting as judge jury
| and executioner in the court of copyright enforcement.
| immibis wrote:
| The law says they have to.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| The law also says a counter claim can be immediately
| filed. Google don't follow that part.
| lazide wrote:
| Google has nothing to do with filing a counter claim
| except accepting it if filed. The content owner is the
| only one who is allowed to file it.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| Google do not immediately reinstate on counter claims.
| gundmc wrote:
| Action against DMCA abusers has happened in a few
| instances, but it's still largely an unsolved problem
| without sufficient deterrence from abuse.
|
| https://techhq.com/news/dmca-takedown-notices-case-in-
| califo...
| gusgus01 wrote:
| They have a history of removing videos that describe things
| they don't like under the guise of "harm", eg Linus Tech Tips
| video on De-Googling your life:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apdZ7xmytiQ
| ddtaylor wrote:
| > Microsoft and Google weren't meeting in secret backrooms to
| censor this one channel
|
| That's not the argument IMO. They don't have to be
| intentionally malicious in each action. A drunk driver
| doesn't want to kill a little girl in the road. Their prior
| choices shape the outcome of their later options. A drunk
| driver decides to get behind the wheel after drinking. A
| large company makes a decision to make more profit knowing
| there are repercussions and calculating the risk.
| lazide wrote:
| The DMCA laws prescribe the process. Google (or any other
| party) isn't allowed to decide for themselves what is or is
| not a valid DMCA complaint.
|
| Complain to Congress, they're the ones who set this up to
| work this way.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| > they're the ones who set this up to work this way.
|
| Who lobbied for it to work that way? I'm assuming google
| aren't entirely innocent here.
| ninkendo wrote:
| The DMCA is from 1998. I don't think Larry and Sergei
| were taking a break from inventing google so they could
| lobby congress from their Stanford dorm room.
| smw wrote:
| Google had only been founded a month before, I don't
| think they had vast lobbying powers yet!
| zeven7 wrote:
| From what I remember Google fought against DMCA abuse by
| media companies and lost.
| iamtedd wrote:
| This isn't a copyright issue. DMCA doesn't apply.
| lazide wrote:
| False DMCA claims are commonly used to take down videos
| like this.
| jeremyjh wrote:
| And were not in this case.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| DMCA covers circumvention of protection measures.
| not_a_bot_4sho wrote:
| Thank you for the sane reply
|
| People are so quick to assume conspiracy because it is
| mentally convenient
| Arch-TK wrote:
| YouTube claim these were not automated actions. This
| explicitly rules out "algorithm/LLM makes a stupid mistake"
| but also seems to rule out "hits a threshold of community
| reports and gets automatically taken down pending manual
| review".
|
| Also, it doesn't even need to be collusion between Microsoft
| and Google, but to pretend like that's never a thing is to be
| ignorant of history.
|
| Stop defending these big companies for these things. Even if
| your version of the story is true, the fact they allow their
| platform to be abused this way is incredibly damaging to
| content creators trying to spread awareness of issues.
|
| But also, do you seriously think there is a massive amount of
| competition at the scale of a 330k subscriber channel for
| people to bother pulling off this kind of attack for two
| videos on bypassing Windows 11 account and hardware
| requirements?
|
| Regardless of what happened here, Google is to blame at least
| for the tools they have made.
|
| As for Microsoft, I don't think there's anything disagreeable
| with saying that they've tried hard to get people to switch
| to hardware with their TPM implementation and lying about the
| reasons. Likewise for forcing Microsoft accounts on people. I
| am not certain they were involved in this case, but they
| created the need for this kind of video to exist, so they are
| also implicated here.
| intended wrote:
| > But also, do you seriously think there is a massive
| amount of competition at the scale of a 330k subscriber
| channel for people to bother pulling off this kind of
| attack for two videos on bypassing Windows 11 account and
| hardware requirements
|
| Enough to cause this behavior. I don't know if theres a
| mathematical or organization law or something, but it seems
| like theres always a way to abuse review mechanisms for
| large communities / sites.
|
| Never enough manpower to do review for each case. Or
| reviews take a long time.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| > _Never enough manpower to do review for each case._
|
| Manpower at a given salary cost.
|
| All content platforms _could_ throw more money at this
| problem, hire more / more skilled reviewers, and create
| better outcomes. Or spend less and get worse.
|
| It's a _choice_ under their control, not an
| inevitability.
| miki123211 wrote:
| So Google is between a rock and a hard place here.
|
| If they don't react quickly and decisively to reports of
| "possible physical harm", even if the reports seem unfounded,
| they'll eventually get the NY Times to say that somebody who
| committed suicide "previously watched a video which has been
| reported to Youtube multiple times, but no action was taken
| by Google."
| franga2000 wrote:
| You can act quickly and decisively and also correctly. Take
| the average number of reports per day times the average
| length of a reported segment times two, divide effective
| work hours per day by that number and hire that many people
| to process reports. Congrats, your average time to
| resolution is 24 hours.
|
| If that's too expensive, your platform is broken. You need
| to be able to process user reports. If you can't, rethink
| what you're doing.
| mcherm wrote:
| Please explain what kind of magic your solution uses to
| ensure that reports always come in at a perfectly even
| pace without any peaks or valleys. Because without that,
| your proposed approach will not work.
| macintux wrote:
| Perhaps the current process becomes the backlog
| management system. This isn't an insurmountable problem,
| were the incentives in place.
| StackRanker3000 wrote:
| Not saying you're wrong in this particular instance, but
| there are all sorts of areas where we accept that harm
| will occur at scale (e.g. that 40,000 people per year die
| in motor-vehicle incidents just in the US). How do we
| determine what is reasonable to expect?
| ethbr1 wrote:
| We require auto manufacturers to include certain safety
| features in their vehicles, to decrease deaths to a
| socially acceptable level.
|
| The central ill of centralized web platforms is that the
| US never mandated customer/content SLAs in regulation,
| even as their size necessitated that as a social good.
| (I.e. when they became 'too big for alternatives to be
| alternatives')
|
| It wouldn't be complicated: - If you're
| a platform (host user content) over X revenue... -
| You are required to achieve a minimum SLA for
| responsiveness - You are also required to hit
| minimum correctness / false positive targets - You
| are also required to implement and facilitate a third-
| party arbitration mechanism, by which a certified
| arbitrator (customer's choice) can process a dispute
| (also with SLAs for responsiveness)
|
| Google, Meta, Apple, Steam, Amazon, etc. could all be
| better, more effective platforms if they spent more time
| and money on resolution.
|
| As-is, they invest what current law requires, and we get
| the current situation.
| intended wrote:
| It's even worse when you think about what happens when
| it's NOT English + NOT mainstream content.
|
| I really wish someone could tell me that either
|
| 1) Yes we can make a system that enables functional and
| effective customer support (because this is what this
| case is about) no matter the language
|
| 2) No we can't because it's fundamentally about manpower
| which can match the context with actual harm.
|
| Whatever I suspect, having any definitive answer to this
| decides how these problems need to eventually be solved.
| Which in turn tells us what we should ask and hope for.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| > _a system that enables functional and effective
| customer support_
|
| I'm not saying that it's humans, but it's humans.
|
| Augmented by technology, but the only currently viable
| arbitrator of human-generated edge cases is another
| human.
|
| If a platform can't afford to hire moderation resources
| to do the job effectively (read: skilled resources in
| enough quantity to make effective decisions), then it's
| not a viable business.
| john01dav wrote:
| > If a platform can't afford to hire moderation resources
| to do the job effectively (read: skilled resources in
| enough quantity to make effective decisions), then it's
| not a viable business.
|
| But, it is viable. Many profitable businesses exist that
| don't pay for this.
|
| One may instead mean that they want such businesses to be
| made non viable, in which case we should critically
| consider which business models that we might currently
| like other consequences of may be made non viable. For
| example, will users suddenly need to pay per post? If so,
| is that worth the trade-off?
| ethbr1 wrote:
| Businesses that are profiting off un-paid-for
| externalities aren't socially sustainable businesses.
| They're just economic scams that happen to be legal.
|
| Imho, we should do what we can to make sure they're
| required to pay for those externalities.
|
| Then, they either figure out a way to do that profitably
| (great! innovation!) or they go under.
|
| But we shouldn't allow them to continue to profit by
| causing external ills.
| dns_snek wrote:
| Your theory is baseless given that YouTube claimed that
| decisions weren't automated:
|
| > The platform claimed its "initial actions" (could be either
| the first takedown or appeal denial, or both) were not the
| result of automation.
| Andrex wrote:
| YouTube frequently claims this and are frequently caught
| lying. (Oh, you really watched this one hour video and
| reached your decision in an email sent 96 seconds after the
| appeal was submitted? Yeah okay...)
|
| They'll silently fix the edge case in the OP and never
| admit it was any kind of algorithmic (OR human) failure.
| dns_snek wrote:
| I'm aware that there's a chance that Google is lying, I'm
| just pointing out that their comment doesn't make any
| sense if they believe that Google deserves the benefit of
| the doubt.
| xbar wrote:
| Google incentivizes takedown vote abuse. 1. 3 Strikes rules
| for channels 2. Automatic takedown systems based on votes 3.
| Incentivizing competing channels with ads 4. No
| verification/limits/punishment of bogus takedown voters and
| vote bots 5. Lack of democritized, universal takedowns of
| equivalent content
|
| Does Microsoft unfairly benefit from Google's takedown
| tirefire? I do not know.
|
| But if I were designing a voting system for takedowns it
| would be: 1. 1 non-DMCA takedown vote per user per year 2. No
| takedown votes for accounts less than 1 year old 3. Takedown
| all equivalent content when a video is voted down. 4.
| Verification of DMCA ownership before taking down DMCA-
| protected content.
| portaouflop wrote:
| The reality is most people don't care about this.
|
| And if they do care they will find workarounds as you said.
|
| Nothing will change, the frog has been sitting in boiling water
| for more than a generation now and the newbloods never
| experienced the computational freedom you hold dear; they will
| happily use whatever corporate surveillance technology is being
| forced upon them. They will even defend it to the bone if you
| try to take it away
| WorldPeas wrote:
| and what phone do you use? There's no way out from that
| perspective (apple included), privacy and interoperability
| should not be mutually exclusive.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It wouldn't be the first time that something gets posted on HN
| and then miraculously is resolved.
| layer8 wrote:
| As the article notes, it was already resolved, and that
| happened five days ago.
| jacquesm wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45744503
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Elderly relatives are the best candidate for switching to
| linux.
|
| They need to do what? Browser, zoom, email client. They are
| never going to install anything.
|
| All of these have great options on linux, and they work just as
| well.
|
| Just put them on Debian stable and be done with it.
| thunky wrote:
| Chromebook.
| XorNot wrote:
| A locked in Google platform while Google is helping
| Microsoft implement mass data collection...
| aeroevan wrote:
| Most of them can be turned into a vanilla linux laptop
| fairly easily, and even support custom coreboot firmware:
| https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/
|
| That being said, it's also pretty easy to get a full
| linux shell and even install gui apps via flatpak or
| whatever.
| more_corn wrote:
| Chromebook is absolute garbage
| fsflover wrote:
| So that all your chat history with the relative goes
| straight to train Google ads? No, thanks.
| rjdj377dhabsn wrote:
| Yep. While my mom was working she needed too many Windows-
| only applications. But once she retired, I set her up with a
| Linux desktop and it's been smooth sailing.
| more_corn wrote:
| I installed zorin on an old machine that was given to me
| because it wouldn't run win 11. I like it a lot. Debian
| based, clean smooth UI. Just tell them Microsoft improved the
| user experience with windows 11.
| mjevans wrote:
| X X Windows L.E. => (e)X X Windows (Wayland) L.E. (Linux
| Edition)
|
| Even the one major 'windows' app that my mom needs to use
| is going Web only... so I figure if I install Debian Stable
| + Widevine that'll cover 99.9% of the use case and I gain
| an OS that just works correctly.
| stOneskull wrote:
| i think a good ubuntu is a bit better than just debian for
| this. probably linux mint or kubuntu. for just debian, then
| mint debian edition or mx linux would be best, imo
| fsflover wrote:
| > imo
|
| Any particular reasons?
| stOneskull wrote:
| i just fret about grandma using plain debian. my first
| thought is i want to give her puppy linux. it's probably
| fine if she lives in firefox though.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| What do you believe Ubuntu has that Debian doesn't and
| will make their lives easier?
| analog8374 wrote:
| I installed Debian (with Mate desktop) for 3 different
| elderly ladies.
|
| All 3 give it a solid thumbs up. "It never crashes", "It's so
| easy", "It's fast", "None of that Windows bs".
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| Linux is under control of the same companies
|
| Besides, all major distributions (Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu)
| ship with a shim signed by Microsoft, and systemd..
|
| *BSD is the only escape, but for how long?
| stevenjgarner wrote:
| I feel your passion, but I feel this is a little
| hyperbolic? I feel your passion is directed more at UEFI
| secure-boot than at Linux. I am no lover of the UEFI
| secure-boot world, using shims as a first-stage boot loader
| component whose job is to bridge the firmware's trusted key
| infrastructure (typically Microsoft's signing key) to a
| Linux (or other non-Windows) bootloader/kernel chain.
|
| > Linux is under control of the same companies
|
| Linux is indeed open source, so are you trying to say that
| "Linux is EFFECTIVELY under control of the same companies
| VIA UEFI WITH SECURE BOOT ENABLED"? Or is there a big-Tech
| cabal controlling Linux in another manner? I get that most
| big-Tech companies are major contributors to open source
| projects.
|
| > all major distributions (Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu) ship
| with a shim signed by Microsoft
|
| Having a shim signed by Microsoft makes no difference if
| these distributions are being installed on hardware without
| UEFI firmware implemented on the motherboard's SPI flash
| e.g. motherboards from Purism (Librem Laptops), System76
| (Thelio, Galago Pro, etc.), Framework Laptop (2021 -), Star
| Labs, Raspberry Pi / Single-Board Computers and uncountable
| DIY PC builds with motherboards (ASUS, ASRock, Gigabyte,
| etc.) that expose Secure Boot options. It is usually only
| when consumer hardware is being used from major OEMs (Dell,
| HP, Lenovo, etc.) that ship with only Microsoft's key in
| the firmware trust database.
|
| > and systemd
|
| You are suggesting that "systemd" is also part of the lock-
| in or control (in your mind) of those distributions. But
| strictly in the context of shim and Secure Boot, systemd is
| not the same issue: systemd is an init-system/process
| manager in userland, not part of the firmware/boot loader
| signature infrastructure. Major distros use systemd, so
| from a "vendor/lock-in" narrative they may lump bootloader
| trust and systemd governance together. But strictly
| speaking your assertion is more of a opinion/ideological
| piece than a formal technical dependency.
|
| > *BSD is the only escape
|
| Not true. Not all Linux distributions use it -- Tails,
| Qubes OS, PureOS, Alpine, Void, Gentoo, etc., deliberately
| avoid it. Most minimalistic, privacy, or DIY distributions
| refuse the Microsoft-signed shim route because their users
| are expected to control their firmware settings or use
| owner-controlled keys.
| kro wrote:
| I installed them Mint and they said it's better than Windows
| due to all the built-in free apps (like public TV)
| pndy wrote:
| Maybe not totally related but I remember a comment from few
| years which lets say, was "dismissed" at the time by votes
| where user said that Google doesn't innovate when it comes to
| web standards but pushes own agenda by planted people at W3C.
| To ensure their browser will work for them and not for the
| user.
|
| Microsoft on the other hand seems to be reheating the old
| Palladium/Trusted Computing concept enhanced now by Copilot.
| This idea was already criticized over 20 years ago as a
| dangerous attempt of turning desktop machines to uncontrollable
| appliances which would run only approved software and serve,
| access approved safe content rigged with DRM. And frankly, with
| all this play with chat control, age verification it's hard to
| not see some similarities. Maybe that's where this is all
| going.
| nalekberov wrote:
| Microsoft is just a video game company to me, I can live
| without its products and be happier. With Google though, things
| are bit different, they have Google Maps and YouTube, which I
| use nearly on daily basis. I can probably replace Google Maps
| with something else, even though that will probable be a
| downgrade in terms of user experience, however replacing
| YouTube is impossible, so many unique content in it.
|
| (a big) But YouTube has grown to be such a monopoly, that they
| now dictate what we are going to be able to watch on the web.
|
| This is sadly so hard to change, so many creators are now
| literally working "for" YouTube, and there are so many quality
| videos there.
| kelvinjps10 wrote:
| You can replace the frontent yt-dlp invidious mpv etc
| ranger_danger wrote:
| I think it's only a matter of time before youtube starts
| injecting ads directly into the video stream, and only
| allow streaming it at the actual playback speed.
|
| They might even put the ads in different places for
| different users to throw off things like Sponsorblock.
| mapontosevenths wrote:
| Its wild to me that you watch enough YouTube to care, but
| won't pay for it. Its a service, either pay or put up
| with the ads.
| Marsymars wrote:
| The problem for me is that "enough to care" is like a
| video every couple months. $8/video is poor value.
| mapontosevenths wrote:
| Fair enough. Thats why there is an ad supported version.
|
| I consider my time to be valuable, and really hate ads
| though so removing even a few minutes of ads are worth
| the $8 to me.
| Larrikin wrote:
| Every single video platform that has ever existed has
| added ads after some number of users are paying.
|
| Also you can block the ads so you have the third option.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| And if YouTube do that then I will unsubscribe. Just like
| I did with Amazon.
|
| Until that point I'll continue to pay. Content creators
| tell me they get more income from premium subscribers too
| so win-win.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Replacing YouTube with a drop-in substitution is obviously
| impossible, but it's not _that_ hard to replace with a
| different hobby. I 've never used YouTube to any significant
| degree, and manage pretty well without it.
| EbNar wrote:
| Same. It is quite difficult for me to understand the
| current YouTube addiction... I can go literally years
| without even opening it.
| p2detar wrote:
| What is so much of value in YouTube that you cannot live
| without? The platform has turned into clickbait conspiracy
| board, exactly because creators are trying to adapt to the
| algorithm. Apart from fun gaming channels, there are very few
| channels where you can actually learn something. It's mostly
| noise.
|
| I'm having much more trouble imagining life without Google
| Maps that without YouTube.
| Podrod wrote:
| Google Maps is garbage as well, full of inaccurate shit or
| meme stuff people added but the process of getting it fixed
| has been made worse and worse over the years.
|
| The report system has been gimped massively,can't even type
| in reasons any more just have to select from some limited
| options and hope for the best. Took me over half a year of
| reporting a permanent street closure near me for them to
| actually change it and all the whole they were happy to
| direct people and cars down it . Other times they just
| outright reject reports without any reason.
|
| Directions have got more sucky over the years.
|
| More and more advertising has creeped into the maps as
| well, seeing the logos for stores and restaurants over
| other places and when zoomed out because they paid to be
| boosted.
|
| I only use Google for street view and, on google earth, for
| historical aerial imagery these days, not for navigation.
| For that I use apps that use OSM like Organic Maps or now
| CoMaps.
| p2detar wrote:
| Google Maps has a practical value. I know why I use it -
| I want to get to somewhere, I open the app, type my
| destination and I'm given a route. Most of the times it
| has worked very well, in numerous different countries
| that I visited.
|
| I find it hard to extract the same practical value from
| YouTube. There have been cases where I would see how
| people repair stuff and to some degree it has been useful
| but it is hard to find that "useful" type of video you
| look for among all the noise. Product review videos are
| always kind of fishy, because reviewers are mostly
| sponsored. So I can't quite get to extract anything of
| great value from YouTube.
|
| Btw, thank you for the Organic Maps tip. Looks really
| really cool!
| tmtvl wrote:
| I've had a pretty good experience with OpenStreetMap to
| replace Google Maps. For YouTube it depends on your needs. If
| it's just entertainment there's Nebula, Odysee, Nicovideo,
| Twitch, Dailymotion, et cetera. For more educational content
| the alternatives can be a bit hit-or-miss.
|
| That said, YouTube has been auto-dubbing videos using an
| algorithm that overdubs English spoken by people with an
| accent, which I consider discriminatory (if not outright
| racist), so I'm trying the various alternatives now. In a few
| months I think I'll have more of an opinion about them.
| squarefoot wrote:
| The video was restored because of the noise the takedown
| created. Small creators have no voice and for every big channel
| that can ignite a PR backlash there are potentially thousands
| that would disappear without trace or chances to be restored.
| YouTube has been unreliable for years, but AI just makes it
| even more so; how could one base their business on such an
| unprofessional and unstable partner that appears managed by
| kids with too much power in their hands? An alternative is
| badly needed asap.
| ranger_danger wrote:
| > The video was restored because of the noise the takedown
| created.
|
| Source:
| themaninthedark wrote:
| > Rich appealed both immediately. The first appeal was
| denied in 45 minutes. The second in just five. > The
| platform claimed its "initial actions" (could be either the
| first takedown or appeal denial, or both) were not the
| result of automation.
|
| If they claim that a non automated review occurred but then
| still took down/denied appeal, what caused them to change
| course?
|
| What is your source that the restoration of the video was
| not because of the noise?
| immibis wrote:
| Pattern recognition, an innate skill in most humans. When
| most bogus takedowns are not reversed, but the more people
| you see talking about them, the more likely they are to get
| reversed, you can easily see the pattern.
| tombert wrote:
| > (Having said that, my bypass strategy is to not use Windows
| 11 altogether. I don't depend on it, having used Linux since 21
| years now,
|
| I'm not quite that cool, but I have been using it full time
| since about 2009, so I'm not too far behind :)
|
| The only time that I have to use Windows is because I have to
| play tech support for my parents, because despite considerable
| effort on my end, I have been completely unsuccessful at
| convincing them to move to Linux or Mac. It's a little
| annoying, because when I bring up the subject they act like I
| should just "live and let live", but that's a really stupid
| argument when they're saying this _while I am fixing their
| computer_. Somehow this is lost on them.
|
| I have complained about this a bunch of times on here, but I'll
| say it again: If you work on Windows Update, then you should
| consider any career other than software engineer. Windows
| Update has made the world a worse place because it
| disincentivizes updating your computer, leading to an increase
| in open. Update software isn't allowed to suck.
| duskdozer wrote:
| Obviously it depends on your relationship, but it's not
| really nice of them to insist on your tech support like this
| AND refuse to make it easier for you AND be ungrateful (?)
| for it. You could set a date after which you won't help
| anymore unless they switch to Linux or Mac.
| tartoran wrote:
| Windows 10 is also the stop I'm getting off at. Windows 11 does
| not serve me and it does not suit my needs. Windows 10 was not
| too great either, debloated was somewhat manageable to run on
| one of my machines. It's inertia of all these years, my first
| windows installation was Win 95. But Windows 11 is a horror
| show I don't want take part in and warn anyone that could be
| tricked into using to stay away.
| stOneskull wrote:
| kde is fun!
|
| so is xfce but i'm too old for tweaking so much
| jwrallie wrote:
| I love xfce. It is so stable and practical.
| hammock wrote:
| > Google censors the world
|
| It's literally their mission: to organize the worlds
| information.
|
| We just didn't understand it at the time.
| ccppurcell wrote:
| I'm a bit of an LLM skeptic but chatgpt could probably explain
| this kind of thing pretty well and a) it's interactive so you
| can ask if you don't understand a step b) there will be no
| filler to pad the content for ads (well not at the moment
| anyway)
| analog8374 wrote:
| What if they censor you for a good reason. Is it ok then?
| itsthecourier wrote:
| most games run in Ubuntu with steam now, Google workspace
| replaced excel for the great majority of tasks online and I
| ubuntu improved a lot drivers support.
|
| I'm happy to work in Linux and see the great improvements they
| did thru decades
| mindcrash wrote:
| Once the masses discover that KDE is just as user friendly as
| Windows these days, ...
|
| ... _and_ that it is relatively easy to run (most) Windows apps
| they love through Bottles (https://usebottles.com/), and/or
| WinApps (https://github.com/winapps-org/winapps)...
|
| ... _oof_
| Pxtl wrote:
| I've been doing my first journey w Linux as a daily driver and
| I'm not loving Mint+Cinnamon, what's the best distro for KDE?
| limagnolia wrote:
| The better question would be what is the best distro for you.
| Personally I like Debian. But I don't know enough about you
| and how you use your computer to say for sure what is best
| for you.
| Pxtl wrote:
| Devops-heavy development, but been a Windows desktop user
| up until now, with linux just running on servers.
|
| I'll probably go with Kubuntu just because I want something
| as vanilla as possible with the largest support-base.
| limagnolia wrote:
| I used Kubuntu for years, but ultimately moved away from
| the Ubuntu based distros due to Canonical cruft. I
| haven't really missed anything going with vanilla Debian.
| petepete wrote:
| I'd recommend Fedora KDE, it's vanilla and well used
| enough to be able to easily find answers.
|
| https://www.fedoraproject.org/kde/
|
| Ubuntu based distros are fine too, but there are a few
| weird things to get to grips with like Snaps.
|
| There's really not much difference between most distros
| these days so I'm sure if you like one you'd like the
| other.
| simoncion wrote:
| I've found Gentoo Linux to be a good developer- and
| sysadmin-oriented distro. It requires a _lot_ more work
| up-front than most any other distro but -IME- once you
| have it running, it just keeps running and upgrading just
| fine. If you wish, you can even subject yourself to
| systemd, as that 's a supported init system.
|
| As a bonus, if you don't want to build everything from
| source, there are prebuilt packages available.
| Instructions for how to use them are in the "Installing
| the base system" section of the Gentoo Handbook. I've not
| used the Gentoo-provided prebuilt packages, but I do use
| my own prebuilts. I've found the process of using them to
| be well-documented and fairly straightforward.
| 1bpp wrote:
| Don't worry too much about distributions, they'll mostly just
| affect package formats and default settings, but imo Debian
| is the best choice for stable desktop computing, with the
| best overall support and community.
| baobun wrote:
| It would help to know what it is you are not loving with
| Mint+Cinnamon... My picks for a beginner-friendly batteries-
| included Linux dist for KDE:
|
| - You can install KDE on Mint without switching distro or
| reinstalling[0]
|
| - Debian (caveat: packages can be out of date if you need the
| latest-greatest of something)
|
| - Fedora (caveat: two major OS upgrades per year can feel
| like a chore)
|
| - EndeavourOS (caveat: Requires a bit more expertise and
| grease to properly maintain)
|
| - Aurora (caveat: Still young project and I'd still consider
| it a bit experimental and adventerous)
|
| - kubuntu (caveat: snaps. Accept them or learn how to
| disable)
|
| KDE Linux is a thing and something to keep an eye on but it's
| still in alpha/beta and probably not ready for your use just
| yet.
|
| [0]: Caveat: it's possible that some DE service might not be
| disabled properly from your old setup and conflict with KDEs
| variety if you keep the cinnamon packages around
| stOneskull wrote:
| kubuntu, kde neon, or mx linux kde version (which is debian)
| tmtvl wrote:
| OpenSUSE has traditionally done a bunch of work on making
| sure other software works well with KDE (for example patching
| Firefox to use the KDE file chooser). Much of that work is no
| longer needed with new tech like the XDG desktop portal
| stuff, but Tumbleweed is still a fairly solid system (up to
| date, stable, GUI system administration tools, automatically
| installs packages with AVX3 if your CPU supports it,...).
| frm88 wrote:
| I switched from Windows 10 to Nobara KDE plasma ~1 month ago.
| It's a Fedora based distro, so most of the Fedora
| documentation applies. I came from server Linux but Windows
| desktop (20 years or so) and I'm amazed how similar it is and
| reacts. It comes with Libre Office, Steam etc. pre-installed
| and while the Libre software is certainly different and needs
| getting used to - for me, coming originally from Wordperfect
| and Quattro Pro it was no challenge. There are some minor
| bugs which I attribute mostly to the Nvidia 580 graphics
| driver, like distorted fonts in certain mouse positions, but
| these are really minimal and I won't deep dive (yet) into
| that. Support online via discord which isn't optimal, but at
| least there is support.
| o11c wrote:
| Unfortunately for right now, KDE has recently released major
| version 6, which is also about as _stable_ as Windows (meaning,
| very not). This is reminiscent of the KDE 4 transition and much
| worse than the KDE 5 one.
|
| For example, half the time I try to log in or unlock the
| screen, it just ignores my password. Fortunately, I have
| discovered that pressing Escape triggers a crash, and I have to
| deliberately trigger a segfault by pressing Escape, in hopes
| that next time the password will be accepted.
| mkl wrote:
| Plasma 6 is nearly two years old, and is totally fine in my
| experience. The transition was more like 5.x to 5.y. The
| biggest change is Wayland by default (X11 is currently still
| available, so might be worth a try).
|
| It sounds like your problem may be with SDDM (the login
| screen program) rather than Plasma itself. You could try an
| alternative: https://alternativeto.net/software/sddm/
| baobun wrote:
| The only issue I have on my Plasma 6 laptop is also lock-
| screen related: About 20% of the time keyboard input is
| ignored/blocked after coming back from sleep. Closing and
| reopening the lid usually sorts it. Haven't seen what you
| describe.
|
| I did have some earlier snags which all went away after
| switching from Wayland session to X11 session.
| pndy wrote:
| Gotta be something specific to your machine - for me version
| 6 is way more stable than 5 was. That line would crash doing
| sillies things like resizing task bar or applying settings.
| Now I feel as good with CachyOS and Plasma 6.5.2 as I was
| with W2K or W7
| skirmish wrote:
| Changing the KDE theme into something other than the default
| Breeze breaks the whole Plasma: black screen with a cursor
| instead of the SDDM login screen. Hit this while setting up
| an Arch system for my wife, spent hours rebooting with
| recovery USB image and tweaking configuration until it all
| worked again.
|
| Wouldn't call it stable.
| simoncion wrote:
| Point of order: SDDM is entirely unrelated to the KDE
| project.
|
| I've been using the Breeze Dark theme for approximately
| forever and I've never run into the problem you're
| describing. However, I've very rarely used SDDM... I find
| its default rainbow-colored background intolerable and use
| LightDM instead.
|
| Do you happen to remember configuration that you ended up
| having to change, and is that computer running Nvidia
| graphics hardware with the closed-source drivers?
| tmtvl wrote:
| SDDM is garbage and I've switched to using lemurs now (for
| whatever reason graphical display managers are terrible.
| GDM doesn't allow changing the mouse cursor theme, SDDM
| doesn't show battery percentage, LightDM doesn't do fonts
| properly,... the KDE people are apparently working on a new
| DM, but the info I got was vague as anything and may as
| well have been referring to the KDE LightDM greeter).
| simoncion wrote:
| I wouldn't say that SDDM is _garbage_. Apparently, it
| sets the environment variables & etc. needed to enable
| automatic HiDPI scaling that a shockingly large number of
| Wayland proponents insist Xorg doesn't support. [0][1]
|
| [0] <https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/SDDM#Enable_HiDPI>
|
| [1] Manual scaling (even non-integer scaling) works fine
| as long as you have a settings editor that will speak the
| XSETTINGS protocol, and a daemon running that can be
| queried. GNOME has both by default. KDE has the settings
| editor, and you might need to install xsettingsd or
| similar. The quirk I've found is that while GTK programs
| accept the display scaling changes immediately, QT
| programs must be restarted to adopt the changes.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| > automatic HiDPI scaling that a shockingly large number
| of Wayland proponents insist Xorg doesn't support.
|
| Assuming they know what they're talking about and not
| just parroting whatever they read others mention, usually
| when someone says that "Wayland does $THING that X11/Xorg
| doesn't do", this is really a shortcut for "X11/Xorg
| could technically do $THING, if enough developers and
| projects cared about it, but that would be a massive
| undertaking and it is easier to convince developers do
| $THING if we can control most of the stack to only do
| $THING in one particular way we want by working from a
| clean slate".
|
| Since you mentioned environment variables, not sure what
| SDDM exactly is doing, but in the case of HiDPI scaling
| under Xorg the only method for HiDPI i'm aware of that
| uses environment variables is Qt's
| `QT_SCREEN_SCALE_FACTORS` which is a semicolon-separated
| list of per-screen scaling factors that Qt applications
| can use to automatically scale themselves depending on
| the screen the window/application is in. Considering SDDM
| is written in Qt, i'll guess that this is what it set.
|
| But the thing is, this is far from enough if you want
| "robust" support under X11/Xorg. The reason is that a
| typical X application under a typical X desktop has
| multiple components: an X server (which i'm going to
| assume it is Xorg for now - other X servers are basically
| Xorg forks and sync with its features), a window manager,
| an optional desktop compositor and a widget toolkit on
| the application's side (not strictly needed as an app can
| use its own adhoc code for that but let's assume it uses
| one since this doesn't really matter in this case).
|
| The behavior you need for robust HiDPI support is for the
| application to use the proper scaling for each of its
| toplevel windows depending on the connected output the
| window is in (note: this may or may not actually be
| relevant to DPI - someone may have bad eyesight and want
| their 27" 1440p monitor to be 150% scaled) and have that
| be done automatically - ideally, transparently from the
| user's perspective - as they move windows between outputs
| and/or add/remove outputs (e.g. connecting/disconnecting
| or turning on/off a graphics tablet with an embedded
| monitor would add/remove an output).
|
| Now, _technically_ , Xorg does provide the necessary core
| functionality to implement the above, however the issues
| begin when you start considering _who_ is going to
| implement it and _what_ part of the stack is responsible
| for which aspect of supporting window scaling.
|
| Ideally, what you'd want is for applications should be
| able to scale each of their toplevel windows arbitrarily
| based on notifications from the underlying system as the
| user interacts with the application windows (note: this
| is not necessarily limited to just the user moving
| windows between outputs - a user could, for example,
| select an option from their window manager to scale a
| window at 200% or 300% - this could be useful when doing
| video streaming or recording videos for example).
|
| So, in an ideal world, the following should happen under
| X11/Xorg:
|
| 1. Widget toolkits can scale their widgets arbitrarily
| (ideally not just at fractional level but also sub-100%
| level too - useful when using secondary screens with a
| low resolution).
|
| 2. Window managers can receive RandR events for output
| DPI changes and use that information to maintain a
| scaling factor for each output (the user could also
| specify custom per-output scaling too).
|
| 3. As the user interacts with the windows, the window
| manager sends notifications to the windows/applications
| whenever a window needs its scale changed. The widget
| toolkits use these notifications to scale their windows'
| contents.
|
| Ignoring a few details, the above is basically what
| Wayland does since it started from a clean slate where
| they could dictate everything from scratch.
|
| However X11/Xorg already has a lot of software already
| written for it and there are a few snags in the way:
|
| 1. Pretty much no toolkit supported arbitrary scaling, so
| they had to be extended for it. Since Wayland needed
| that, toolkits that need to support it added the
| functionality anyway (e.g. Qt and Gtk) though not without
| issues along the way (AFAIK Gtk didn't support fractional
| scaling for a long time). Though not all toolkits have
| support for this.
|
| 2. Window managers must be extended to monitor outputs
| via RandR and send appropriate notifications whenever
| windows move across outputs to those windows. This would
| also need some new notification protocol (most likely a
| new version of EWMH). However...
|
| 3. ...toolkits must _also_ be extended to support these
| notifications - supporting scaling isn 't enough if they
| do not know when to scale. This introduces a problem
| because...
|
| 4. ...window managers will have to deal with toolkits not
| supporting the notifications. One way would be to just
| ignore them, but another way is to do the scaling
| themselves. However, there is another issue here.
|
| 5. When using (and having enabled) a desktop compositor
| scaling can be easy (especially when dealing with edge
| cases like a window lying across the edge between two
| monitors :-P), but without one, the window manager needs
| to scale the window itself (there was a Xorg branch by
| Keith Packard that introduced server-side window scaling
| but AFAIK it was never merged) without affecting the rest
| of the desktop - and of course do the appropriate
| coordinate transformations for various events (e.g. mouse
| motion). Moreover since a desktop compositor can be a
| separate program than a window manager (many -if not
| most- X11 window managers are not desktop compositors),
| they both need to somehow coordinate with each other.
|
| 6. Since this requires all window managers (and desktop
| compositors) to be updated, the inevitable result is that
| there will be a lot of them that will not be updated for
| quite some time, so applications (or realistically,
| widget toolkits) will need to also handle HiDPI scaling
| themselves by doing the RandR queries and automatically
| sizing their own windows based on output. This is a
| subpar option because the application does not know the
| window manager's own state and you can end up with the
| two "fighting" with each other. Also the window manager
| cannot do desktop-wide configurations (it is actually
| blind to them).
|
| 7. Obviously whatever protocols in place (as i wrote
| above, probably a new EWMH version) are used, they'll
| also need to let the components (window manager, widget
| toolkit) provide information for when any of the above
| are in place so the proper action is taken (e.g. a
| toolkit should not try to do the output tracking itself
| if the window manager supports it and a window manager
| should not try to do scaling itself if the widget toolkit
| supports it - but both need to inform the other about
| this).
|
| As you can hopefully imagine, the above require the
| developers of all window managers, all desktop
| compositors, all widget toolkits and applications not
| only to coordinate with each other but also handle
| various cases in case the user used something in the
| stack that did not support things.
|
| With Wayland since everything was done from scratch,
| there were less people that needed to be convinced to
| cooperate - and in practice since Wayland originated from
| RedHat and the GNOME ecosystem, convincing the
| appropriate GNOME and Gtk developers to cooperate was
| probably a coffee break away :-P. Meanwhile Qt would
| already need to add (or already had, not sure when it was
| added) support for scaling/HiDPI anyway for Windows and
| macOS, so the infrastructure was there.
|
| The current situation is that Qt, currently, supports the
| #6 i mentioned above since it can be implemented without
| needing support from window managers, desktop compositors
| or specifying new protocols (something that seems to be
| much harder than it should be - e.g. AFAIK Cinnamon
| implemented a very trivial X attribute for displaying a
| percentage for windows in a taskbar/icon overlay -think
| of download percentage- but despite the developers'
| attempt to have others adopt it, i do not think it saw
| much adoption). But this is really the "fallback
| solution" when everything else is just not there, it is
| not the ideal one.
|
| That said, from a technical perspective there is nothing
| theoretically stopping Xorg desktop environments having
| top-notch robust HiDPI support. What blocks everything is
| convincing the developers of the various components of
| the desktop stack to cooperate, implement and support it.
| tmtvl wrote:
| As someone who's been bouncing back and forth between Arch
| and Tumbleweed for a while now I had a very different
| experience. The transition from KDE 4 to KDE Plasma 5 was
| terrible, plasmashell would crash all the time, tons of stuff
| would break between updates, and I had to switch to running
| awesome for a while (which is fine, awesome is pretty great).
| The transition from Plasma 5 to Plasma 6 was basically 'these
| 2 KWin scripts don't work any more' and everything else was
| fine.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| There are a lot of videos on YouTube about things that have a
| "risk of physical harm" and this is what they choose to pick on??
| __loam wrote:
| It's all automated, of course there are false positives
| autoexec wrote:
| If a company chooses to automate something that should not be
| a defense. They should still be held equally accountable for
| their actions no matter if they employ a human or an
| algorithm to do their censorship for them. If they know their
| software/automation is shit and keeps screwing up, they're
| still making the choice to continue using it.
| damonachey wrote:
| I would think this selective action could / should open them up
| to litigation for all the other harmful things on their site
| henvic wrote:
| Feels like AI going wild with censorship regardless of what they
| say lol
|
| I wonder if this is because Windows 11 has been used in critical
| systems to a certain extent?
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I no longer run a Microsoft OS on any of the computers I own.
|
| This type of behavior is the reason.
|
| Linux is good enough for most everything I do, for the rest is
| MacOS.
| Pxtl wrote:
| Meanwhile AI products occasionally talk kids into killing
| themselves and that's okay.
| Evidlo wrote:
| The videos were restored, though...
| Simulacra wrote:
| Oh this is going to get the Streisand effect.
| hshdhdhehd wrote:
| They cant remove all the Ubuntu installation tutorials surely?
| wafflemaker wrote:
| So why shouldn't I use the windows 11 on the other partition that
| I use for games that don't run on Linux or run with degraded
| performance?
|
| (Yeah, it's Nvidia, no, I didn't do my homework and bought Nvidia
| for a Linux PC).
|
| While it may make sense for others, I don't find system that can
| lock up for 11 hours for updates suitable for anything other than
| occasional gaming. But why shouldn't I use it for it? I already
| think twice before getting any game that doesn't run on Linux and
| gave EA WRC Rally a downvote after they rug pulled Linux users.
| (A game that run on Linux on the beginning got borked with
| anticheat. A racing game, so you don't cheat your friends by
| having 1s less on that race you all compete on).
| prmoustache wrote:
| There is no worse usage of windows than the occasional one
| given the huge amount of updates it starts to download whenever
| you start it up after a long period unused.
|
| I guess it might be useful if you only keep it offline but in
| that case you aren't playing games online and thus you would be
| fine gaming on Linux given the only downside is lack of
| anticheat support.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| A Windows update will eventually overwrite your bootloader and
| you won't be able to boot into Linux without some fuckery.
| simoncion wrote:
| My Windows "fun" was when it decided that the "unknown" space
| immediately after its little boot partition was free for it
| to expand into. (Imagine not being able to recognize an ext2
| filesystem...) After repairing that disaster, I ensured it
| would never happen again by putting Windows onto its own
| harddrive. That's worked for a great many years.
|
| Though, now that I've quite a bit of personal experience with
| how good Steam/Proton is for video games, I think I'll
| reclaim the surprisingly large amount of space that Windows
| is taking up.
| henriquemaia wrote:
| The video in question does present a risk of death... to Windows.
|
| (Nah, that wording is but a generic legalese sounding way of
| casting a huge net to get all sorts of fish.)
| lenerdenator wrote:
| The whole Windows 11 saga can be titled, "Dr. Bashlove, or, how I
| stopped worrying and learned to love the *NIX".
|
| Hard to believe this is the same company that made Windows 7.
| Coulda just ported WSL and security fixes back to that and
| stopped there. But nooooo.
| sleepyguy wrote:
| Massgrave...that is all...
| lax4ever wrote:
| Even easier, Schneegans
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| Maybe they mixed it up with mental harm from using Windows 11 and
| that's why they removed Windows 11 content.
| googlryas wrote:
| Can anyone provide any attempt at rationalizing their decision?
| Could your computer overheat and explode if you do this? Could
| hackers take over your computer and play a flashing light pattern
| that will give you an epileptic seizure?
| fortran77 wrote:
| > Then came the twist. YouTube eventually restored both videos.
| The platform claimed its "initial actions" (could be either the
| first takedown or appeal denial, or both) were not the result of
| automation.
|
| The videos are back. It's also possible that a group of people
| "brigade" reported his posts for some reason. YouTubers attract
| haters, too.
| puppycodes wrote:
| I forsee a lobby to the government for further restriction on our
| freedom of speech by google and others as these companies can't
| compete with open source and decentralized alternatives that are
| beginning to offer really well made alternatives.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| That will only happen if we let it.
|
| Observations indicate we're approaching a point of inflection.
| We've had about three decades of Big Tech running a serfdom,
| unless power starts shifting back to users we'll be locked-in
| serfs for good.
|
| I reckon most of us don't actually realize how much trouble
| we're in already.
| zahlman wrote:
| > That will only happen if we let it.
|
| What actions could we take that actually matter here?
| userbinator wrote:
| Stop using Windows 11.
| chmod775 wrote:
| This is meek and seems almost resigned. I don't understand how
| discourse and responses around these kinds of strange,
| bewildering, or stupid corporate decisions is always so _nice_.
| This corporate bullshit _thrives_ in respectful environments
| where nobody needs to be afraid of being told how it is and
| publicly humiliated for their obviously disingenuous or stupid
| behavior.
|
| When you're dealing with full-on idiots like that "support
| specialist" (AI?), all bets are off anyways. Might as well tell
| that clown that what he just said is the dumbest shit you've
| heard all week.
|
| Take off the gloves and burn some bridges if you have to, the
| world will be better place for it.
| 0xcb0 wrote:
| You can watch the latest Hollywood movies for free on YouTube and
| they don't care about any copyright, but if it's for showing a
| genocide to the world or bypassing Windows tutorials, YouTube
| lost it's spirit.
| BobbyTables2 wrote:
| This is a blessing in disguise.
|
| Now more people will be motivated to migrate AWAY from Windows
| since they will have no bypass.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _" Now more people...."_
|
| Yes, some will but unfortunately in actual per
| capita/percentage terms it'll be pathetically small.
|
| Do you really think the marketers, economists and social
| scientists at Microsoft haven't got that figure off to a tee
| aready?
|
| It's a certainty they have and they've figured it just amounts
| to noise in the grand schema of things.
|
| .
| pnt12 wrote:
| It's often a mistake to think that companies are these
| perfect union of ultra rational agents, just because they
| have a lot of employees and money.
|
| See: Windows 8, Windows Phone.
| tmoertel wrote:
| If anyone at YouTube Trust & Safety is reading this article, I've
| got a real problem for you to solve.
|
| There are channels that exist solely to pump out AI slop
| seemingly designed to trick gullible seniors into identifying
| themselves in the comments. I suspect the scammers will go after
| these people later in pig-butchering or related scams.
|
| For example, the "Senior Secrets" channel pumps out videos such
| as "Over 60? Add THIS Powder To Your Coffee To Walk like You're
| 40 Again! | Senior Health Tips." (I won't link to the video, but
| you can easily find it with a search.) The video makes bold
| health claims justified by citing what appear to be scholarly
| research studies, such as:
|
| > University of California, San Francisco (2023). "Mobility
| Enhancement Through Nutritional Supplementation in Older Adults."
| Journal of Gerontology: Medical Sciences, Volume 78, pp. 445-453.
|
| However, none of the cited studies and papers are real.
|
| The deeply concerning thing is that the video's narrator invites
| the seniors who are duped by these claims to identify themselves
| and reveal their age and locations in the comments. From the
| transcript at 1m44s:
|
| > "Before we begin, tell us in the comments now your age and
| where you're watching us from. We're reading and replying to
| every single comment, so drop your comments below."
|
| I've already reported this content to YT, but I've seen no
| apparent follow-up.
|
| Disclaimer: I used to work at Google, but not in anything YouTube
| related. If you're in YT and want to reach out, my contact info
| is in my HN profile.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| I'm curious to hear whether any YouTubians[O] take you up on
| that.
|
| 0 - idk. Can't call employees "YouTubers"
| chipsrafferty wrote:
| They don't care. There's a ridiculous amount of AI slop on
| YouTube.
| tmoertel wrote:
| This isn't merely AI slop. This is AI slop that appears to
| have been designed to specifically target a vulnerable
| audience for the purpose of later running financial scams
| against them. It ought to be in a different category
| altogether.
| lozenge wrote:
| Age and city isn't all that identifying, I don't see anything
| useful there that isn't already in census etc. They are just
| doing it because YouTube promotes highly commented videos,
| hence the old saying "like, comment and subscribe"
| tmoertel wrote:
| It's not the age and location that are concerning. It's that
| the seniors _who are especially susceptible to being misled_
| will identify themselves as such. Further, if you look at the
| comments from these seniors, their YT usernames often reveal
| their real names.
| isaacremuant wrote:
| This is what the crowd shouting misinformation and "protect X"
| asks for all the time.
|
| You want nanny states and nanny corps and authoritianism through
| and through (remember covid policies?), you'll get this more and
| more.
|
| You either start rolling back all that BS in the name of freedom
| (no, not freedumbs) or you can't really complain.
| geor9e wrote:
| "Risk of Physical Harm" is the kind of reason Tony Soprano would
| say
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Mount a Windows 11 ISO. Open an administrative command window.
| Navigate to the new drive letter. Enter this command:
| .\setup.exe /product server /auto upgrade /EULA accept
| /migratedrivers all /ShowOOBE none /Compat IgnoreWarning
| /Telemetry Disable
|
| I've used this to upgrade 10 to 11 on non approved hardware,
| going back to at least 2nd gen Intel CPUs. I've used it to
| upgrade existing Pro, EDU and IOT that didn't want to upgrade.
|
| The install window will say server but it isn't.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Does this work with 25H2? I haven't tried it yet.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Yes. I've done Win10 to Win11 with a 25H2 ISO. I've also used
| it to push 24H2 to 25H2 when WU wasn't offering the upgrade.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Thanks. Good to know it still works. I've got a few
| unsupported machines I need (ugh, not want) to do.
| lax4ever wrote:
| Schneegans.de autounattend XML files generator
| fukka42 wrote:
| Crazy how windows 11 objectively works fine on pretty much all
| hardware you'd expect but Microsoft is insisting it doesn't and
| we need to upgrade
| yard2010 wrote:
| They are lying to make money. It's a common tactic.
| austin-cheney wrote:
| No they will make the same money either way because they
| are selling the OS, not the hardware. They are requiring
| only newer hardware to limit their surface of exploitation
| and reduce their compatibility list.
| dymk wrote:
| Microsoft and their OWM partners sell hardware and have
| done so for a very long time.
| Forbo wrote:
| They also sell a license with the new hardware. The bulk
| majority of the public never buy hardware without an OS.
| So yes, they are making more money with each new hardware
| sale. Plus the increase of forced advertising means they
| make more per user, effectively double dipping.
|
| Why do you feel the need to defend a convicted monopolist
| for engaging in user hostile behavior?
| api wrote:
| They might sell more Windows 11 if it ran on more hardware.
| How does this make them money?
|
| It's worth asking, but I think there's an answer: they want
| the OS to be transformed into an interface to their cloud
| where recurring revenue is easier. To do that, they need to
| make it more like a mobile OS and more locked down. TPM
| helps this.
| dymk wrote:
| Dropping windows 10 support is a pretty big lever to
| apply pressure to get people to upgrade to 11. Oh turns
| out you also "need" to buy new hardware to run it.
| Fabricio20 wrote:
| Dropping windows 10 support is a really reasonable
| decision. The focus is on 11, it's been out for almost 5
| years. I'm guessing they are close to releasing 12 at
| this point, maybe in a year or two. Supporting three
| entire fully fledged oses is quite alot of work. I also
| understand supporting newer hardware, they dropped 32bit
| on 11 and moved the instruction set up a bit. You gotta
| do a cutoff somewhere and I'm happy that they are at
| least allowing us to use the improved performance our
| modern CPUs have. I'm not happy with alot of stuff, but I
| get this at least.
| tyami94 wrote:
| I'd argue it's probably time to drop 32-bit x86 support,
| but the rest of this stuff is arbitrary and doesn't have
| any tangible benefit except conveniently providing
| hardware manufacturers with an excuse to unload new
| hardware onto people when there's nothing wrong with what
| they have. (not to mention, pardon the conspiracy theory,
| they're probably trying to use the TPM to turn the PC
| into a smartphone-like platform)
| HighGoldstein wrote:
| > They might sell more Windows 11 if it ran on more
| hardware. How does this make them money?
|
| Given the free Win 7/8->10->11 upgrade path, almost every
| end user who'd want a Windows license probably already
| has one. This leaves enterprise licensing and computer
| manufacturers (laptops, mini-PCs, desktops), who wouldn't
| care about this because they'll have newer hardware
| anyway.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| They want everyone to have neo-clipper-chip "TPM"s.
| luciferin wrote:
| My understanding is that TPM is secure, and Win 11 still
| supports TPM. Am I mistaken and/or misunderstanding your
| statement that Microsoft is enforcing a hardware
| requirement with a known back door?
| baby_souffle wrote:
| TPM can be secure. But secure for whom against what?
| Microsoft and "against you" are not implausible answers
| to that question...
| web3-is-a-scam wrote:
| TPM is not secure. At all. At least when when you're
| using Windows.
|
| https://youtu.be/t1eX_vvAlUc
| jabwd wrote:
| Do you also have a source thats not a youtuber? Would be
| far more interesting to read on apparently it being a spy
| chip rather than just a HSM.
| web3-is-a-scam wrote:
| It's not like these things aren't publically documented
| by Microsoft.
|
| You just need to be able to translate their doublespeak.
| nativeit wrote:
| Apparently not.
| web3-is-a-scam wrote:
| Sure let's just centralize hardware attestation to
| Microsoft's cloud tied to a Microsoft account with keys
| you can't change what could possibly go wrong?
|
| This is all publicly documented by Microsoft you just
| need to translate their doublespeak.
|
| Google is doing does the exact same thing and people were
| sounding the alarms when they did it but Microsoft gets a
| pass?
|
| Use ChaGPT to outsource your critical thinking for you
| because I'm not gonna do it.
| tyami94 wrote:
| Here's a significantly more credible (stacksmashing)
| video that demonstrates how ineffective some TPM
| implementations are. If the TPM was integrated into the
| CPU die, this attack would likely not be possible.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTl4vEednkQ
|
| Despite the TPM being a pretty good and useful idea as a
| secure enclave for storing secrets, I'm concerned that
| giving companies the ability to perform attestation of
| your system's "integrity" will make the PC platform less
| open. We may be headed towards the same hellscape that we
| are currently experiencing with mobile devices.
|
| Average folks aren't typically trying to run Linux or
| anything, so most people wouldn't even notice if secure
| boot became mandatory over night and you could only run
| Microsoft-signed kernels w/ remote attestation. Nobody
| noticed/intervened when the same thing happened to
| Android, and now you can't root your device or run custom
| firmware without crippling it and preventing the use of
| software that people expect to be able to use (i.e.
| banking apps, streaming services, gov apps, etc.).
|
| Regardless, this is more of a social issue than a
| technical issue. Regulatory changes (lol) or mass revolt
| (also somewhat lol) would be effective in putting an end
| to this. The most realistic way would be average people
| boycotting companies that do this, but I highly doubt
| anyone normal will do that, so this may just be the hell
| we are doomed for unless smaller manufacturers step up to
| the plate to continue making open devices.
| tyami94 wrote:
| I've looked into this fella before because he didn't pass
| the smell test. He's running a grift selling schlocky
| cell phones and cloud services. His videos are
| excessively clickbait-y and show minimal understanding of
| the actual tech, it's more or less concentrated
| disinformation and half-understood talking points.
| GrapheneOS devs also had something to say about him:
| https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/20165-response-to-
| dishonest...
| tliltocatl wrote:
| Secure against what threat model?
| verandaguy wrote:
| I've had to learn about TPMs to figure out if they're the
| right technology with which to integrate a product I've
| worked on. I don't agree that they're a "neo-clipper-chip"
| in any real way based on my exposure to them.
|
| While I'm not a cryptographer... I never really understood
| the appeal of these things outside of one very well-defined
| threat model: namely, they're _excellent_ if you 're
| _specifically_ trying to prevent someone from physically
| taking your hard drive, and _only_ your hard drive, and
| walking out of a data centre, office, or home with it.
|
| It also provides measured boot, and I won't downplay it,
| it's useful in many situations to have boot-time integrity
| attestation.
|
| The technology's interesting, but as best as I can tell,
| it's limited through the problem of establishing a useful
| root-of-trust/root-of-crypt. In general:
|
| - If you have resident code on a machine with a TPM, you
| can access TPM secrets with very few protections. This is
| typically the case for FDE keys assuming you've set your
| machine up for unattended boot-time disk decryption.
|
| - You _can_ protect the sealed data exported from a TPM,
| typically using a password (plus the PCR banks of a
| specific TPM), though the way that password is transmitted
| to the TPM is susceptible to bus sniffing for TPM variants
| which live outside the CPU. There 's also the issue of
| securing _that_ password, now, though. If you 're in
| enterprise, maybe you have an HSM available to help you
| with that, in which case the root-of-crypt scheme you have
| is much more reasonable.
|
| - The TPM _does_ provide some niceties like a hardware RNG.
| I can 't speak to the quality of the randomness, but as I
| understand it, it must pass NIST's benchmarks to be
| compliant with the ISO TPM spec.
|
| What I really don't get is why this is useful for _the
| average consumer._ It doesn 't meaningfully provide FDE in
| particular in a world where the TPM and storage may be
| soldered onto the same board (and thus impractical to steal
| as a standalone unit rather than with the TPM alongside
| it).
|
| I certainly don't understand what meaningful protections it
| can provide to game anti-cheats (which I bring up since
| apparently Battlefield 6 requires a TPM regardless of the
| underlying Windows version). That's just silly.
|
| Ultimately, I might be misunderstanding something about the
| TPM at a fundamental level. I'm not a layperson when it
| comes to computer security, but I'm certainly not a
| specialist when it comes to designing or working with TPMs,
| so maybe there's some glaring a-ha thing I've missed, but
| my takeaway is that it's a fine piece of hardware that does
| its job well, but its job seems too niche to be useful in
| many cases; its API isn't very clear (suffering, if
| anything, from _over-documentation_ and over-
| specification), and it 's less a silver bullet and more a
| footgun.
| p_ing wrote:
| The unsupported CPUs lack the support for Virtualization
| Based Security, which is a major security feature in Windows
| 11.
|
| https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-
| hardware/design/de...
| xbar wrote:
| It is not a mandatory feature.
| p_ing wrote:
| Yes, it is mandatory for OEMs.
| rstat1 wrote:
| VBS is also in Windows 10 and has no problem working on
| CPUs that aren't "supported" in Windows 11
| p_ing wrote:
| This is incorrect. Not all CPUs supported by Windows 10
| supported the VBS feature.
|
| Microsoft is making the VBS mandatory for OEMs, hence the
| CPU needs support, hence the ~7 year old minimum
| requirement for CPUs in what Microsoft supports for
| Windows.
|
| Yes, you can disable it during setup as a workaround, but
| it's exactly that. And why you'd want to make your system
| less secure, well I'll leave that to the exercise of the
| reader when they'll turn around two weeks from now and
| complain about Windows security.
| rstat1 wrote:
| Most of the requirements for that feature are UEFI
| features or a TPM, and have nothing to do with the CPU
|
| The actual CPU requirements are VMX, SLAT, IOMMU and
| being 64 bit, which have all been available on the Intel
| side at least, since at least 2008, with some coming
| available even before that.
|
| The CPU requirement was just an attempt to force people
| to buy new hardware they didn't need. Nothing more.
|
| A perfect example of this is the Ryzen 5 1600. Its not
| officially supported but meets every single one of the
| requirements and had no trouble enabling the feature in
| the run up to the release of Win11 (before it was blocked
| for no reason). I know this because I did it.
|
| Also they marked all but one 7th Intel Core CPU as
| unsupported, and the one they did add just so happens to
| be the one they were shipping in one of their Surface
| products. No way you can tell me this list was based fact
| and not the whims of some random PM when they do stuff
| like that.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > and why you'd want to make your system less secure,
|
| I'd offer that the likely goal here is the most usable
| system possible, working with what one has. If folks are
| here, there's usually a lot of necessity factors in play.
| jonathanlydall wrote:
| Thanks, this is great.
|
| Just a note for others that that the language of the ISO needs
| to match what you used to install Windows 10.
|
| For example, I installed Windows 10 with the "International
| English" ISO and if I try this with the Windows 11 "US English"
| ISO, then it doesn't let me do an upgrade where it keeps
| installed programs and drivers.
| dlcarrier wrote:
| ...going back to at least 2nd gen Intel CPU.
|
| Would that be the 4040 or the 8008?
| xattt wrote:
| Physical harm realized because boot took eternity.
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| Only if you work in a hospital. And who would be crazy
| enough to build hospital IT on Windo.. oh, wait.
|
| I haven't tried Win11 on personal hardware so far, but
| since Win8, boot times are not much of an issue in my
| experience.
|
| Making the whole OS the vehicle for a rent-seeking vendor
| lock-in scheme built to make you pay more and more to keep
| up the same set of functionality is more of a problem I
| think.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Would that be the 4040 or the 8008?
|
| Heh, yeah. In the moment I couldn't come up with the brief,
| unique descriptor and reached for the modern shorthand.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Will this work on a version which is part of LTSC or IoT or
| whatever factory debloated version microsoft makes? As in, will
| the upgraded version preserve the IoT or LTSC designation and
| "debloatedness"?
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Will this work on a version which is part of LTSC or IoT
|
| I've used the command with a Win11 LTSC/IoT 24H2 ISO. I
| upgraded Win10 LTSC/IoT 21H2 to Win11 24H2 LTSC/IoT. I've
| done this on two old notebooks, a Dell Core2Duo and a
| Thinkpad T430.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Can I modify the command to go from regular windows 10 to
| debloated windows 11? Do I just need debloated ISO for that
| to work automatically?
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I don't know yet. I've got a Win10 EDU I'm going to try
| to upgrade to Win11 IOT but I haven't pulled the trigger
| yet. It's in place doing some NAS duty atm.
|
| The command doesn't ask any questions so there's no
| opportunity to tweak it. I'm getting a recovery plan in
| place before I pull the trigger on mine.
|
| edit: I might also go another way. There are some other
| setup methods that might be a better fit for cross-
| upgrading Windows types. I'm actively investigating but
| it may be a month before I'm in a position to try them
| out.
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| What's the benefit of upgrading from W10 IoT to W11 IoT?
|
| Any specific features?
|
| W10 IoT gets support until 2032 I believe.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Mostly to see what works. In this case tho I've found
| some remote management on workgroup PCs works better when
| it's Win11->Win11 (instead of Win10->Win11).
|
| ex: With Win10->Win11 I get a fair number of crashes when
| remotely viewing the event log mmc.
| seam_carver wrote:
| Oooo, might try this with my 2011 PC.
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| _Windows cannot parse the provided command line options_
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| It's possible something got lost in HN's formatting.
|
| The line should look like this:
| https://i.postimg.cc/VLHfF4H3/commandline.png
|
| If it's correct, I'd like to know some specifics, if you
| don't mind. Current OS and ISO you're working with.
|
| I've never had this fail and if there's an instance where it
| will, I'd like to know about it.
| jasomill wrote:
| Or just use Rufus[1] to create a bootable USB installer from
| the ISO.
|
| Another trick that should still work, though I haven't tested
| it with newer Windows 11 builds: to create Windows 11 install
| media that will install and boot via BIOS -- useful on machines
| where Windows doesn't work correctly under UEFI, e.g., older
| MacBooks that only work properly with Windows when booted via
| CSM -- create writeable, BIOS-bootable Windows 10 x64 install
| media, then replace the install.wim file with one from an
| appropriate Windows 11 ISO.
|
| [1] https://rufus.ie/en/
| roody15 wrote:
| Windows 11 attempts to remove local only account is the last
| straw. I have mostly moved away from Windows already but if they
| fully implement this will never recommend to anyone period. I
| manage 2600 computers where I work and am down to less than 150
| running windows ... could see this reaching 0 in just a year or
| two.
| dev_l1x_be wrote:
| Risk of Physical Harm of losing profit.
| vismit2000 wrote:
| It wasn't wrong, there is no bigger harm one can do to self than
| using Windows!
| suzzer99 wrote:
| This happened to me when Amazon KDP's fraud prevention AI
| hallucinated that my Kindle version was plagiarizing my paperback
| (yes, it's the same book).
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40992654
|
| Unfortunately, I'm not sure a human ever really looked at my
| case, or was strongly disincentivized to go against the AI. I got
| nothing but bland, contentless denials of my appeals that got
| vaguer each time. And I was never able to go viral, so I'm banned
| from KDP for life for complete nonsense.
| zahlman wrote:
| I think this is the same story as
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45744503 ?
| ddingus wrote:
| Bullshit, horseshit, cows hot.
|
| The whole win 11 thing is embarrassing.
|
| They are this far in, pushing features nobody asked for and is
| there any wonder the numbers blow chunks?
|
| None.
| dietr1ch wrote:
| "to organize the world's information and make it universally
| accessible and useful"
| godsmokescrack wrote:
| Governments (we the people in general) have the right and duty to
| regulate corporations, non-human entities which exist at our
| regulatory pleasure. The US and the EU could easily rip
| Google/MS/Apple to pieces if they wanted to. Hit some other media
| conglomerates while they're at it. Vote or something.
| gmerc wrote:
| CachyOS.
| mkbkn wrote:
| Thanks Google and Microsoft, I am going to write a blogpost on
| how to bypass Microsoft's shits and archive the page as well.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| https://archive.ph/K0tKm
| antegamisou wrote:
| > Risk of Physical Harm
|
| Yet ChatGPT is not responsible for having led to suicides.
| tom89999 wrote:
| As if people would not talk to each other or post such
| instructions elsewhere.... What a clumsy attempt to censor that.
| As if we now would love Microsoft for their shit and crap they
| produce since centuries. I only got a gaming machine running it
| here, all my private data will stay on another linux machine
| afarviral wrote:
| Huh I must have just got in on time as I set up a local account
| about 12 hours ago following a tutorial.
| ibbtown wrote:
| But there is a harm. Just had to repair a pc of my family,
| because you are able to install windows 11 on a MBR Partition
| without EFI Boot. Has to convert it and fix some stuff, but it
| still starts only every second boot (srsly)
| blitzar wrote:
| > Claims 'Risk of Physical Harm'
|
| Elaborate please YouTube.
| spl757 wrote:
| OBAY
| sylware wrote:
| And how you would install a dual boot with some mainstream
| elf/linux distro?
|
| Is dual boot still a thing with all the effort from microsoft to
| make that hell or impossible?
| phreack wrote:
| It's like they want people to bypass Windows 11 altogether. I've
| finally bit the bullet and gone to Linux recently. Certainly
| dying by 512 cuts and counting, not for the faint of heart, but
| I'm surprised at how much of my daily usage I've been able to
| replicate. I'd say 80% of life works, unlike previous attempts.
| wohoef wrote:
| In my experience 120% of my daily usage from windows works on
| Linux.
|
| Where are the friction points for you?
| gond wrote:
| I cannot recommend NTLite enough.
|
| If it has to be Windows, just remove all the shit of Win11
| yourself, set it to unattended installation with a local account,
| remove the hardware requirements barrier while you are at it,
| remove the games, controller add-ons, virus scanner and whatever
| else you would like to (the windows store?) and create your own
| LTSC.
|
| This isn't a solution to the problem and missing the point of the
| whole argument. But if it has to be Windows, I would recommend to
| try it.
|
| 1] ntlite.com
| Anduia wrote:
| > YouTube eventually restored both videos
|
| Okay, nothing to see here then. Just some sensationalism around a
| content moderation mistake.
| SurceBeats wrote:
| Google used to proudly say "Don't be evil"... But they just
| forgot to add "let us take that part".
|
| When tech giants start deciding what technical knowledge is too
| "dangerous" for users to access, we've crossed into a different
| kind of territory. Installing an OS on your own hardware is now
| physical harm? That's some creative interpretation of their
| policies. The irony is that this kind of censorship just
| validates why people want to bypass these systems in the first
| place, nobody wants corporations deciding what they can and can't
| do with their own machines.
| Pooge wrote:
| Those of you who don't use Linux as a daily driver: why?
|
| What do you need in Windows that is not possible in Linux? Its
| slowness to justify your 40-hour work week?
| reddozen wrote:
| the games I play don't support Linux
| Pooge wrote:
| Isn't dual-booting convenient for you? I've never done it
| myself.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I like Linux, it's my laptop daily driver, but there's
| nothing I would do on Linux on my gaming PC that I can't do
| on Windows.
|
| Linux just has no upside over Windows in a dual boot
| context.
| Pooge wrote:
| > Linux just has no upside over Windows in a dual boot
| context
|
| If you do dual-boot and don't care about the privacy of
| the data you put into Windows, I guess so.
| rkomorn wrote:
| If I dual-boot, I have to maintain both OSes no matter
| what.
|
| I also personally keep no data on my devices, but if I
| did, having data that I need to reboot to get to would be
| friction I don't want.
| Pooge wrote:
| > I also personally keep no data on my devices
|
| Now I get your point. But still I would prefer to access
| my "personal" accounts from a device I trust.
|
| Do you use a cloud service for your files?
| rkomorn wrote:
| Yep. I've been a paying Google Workspace user for almost
| 20 years now (in the various iterations of the product
| name).
|
| Some stuff goes in GitHub, none of which I actually truly
| care about though.
|
| I'm sure you'll groan. :)
|
| But hey, if it's good enough for Cloudflare and Datadog
| (two past employers), it's good enough for me.
|
| I also may be weird because I don't own any media and I'm
| perfectly happy with the streaming model. I enjoy not
| having the mental load of thinking about self-hosting and
| backing up terabytes of stuff.
|
| I feel "lightweight" and I like it.
| Pooge wrote:
| Yeah it makes it very easy to be OS-independant. I have
| backups of my whole home directory so if anything goes
| awry I can just reinstall software as I go and restore my
| config files from the most recent backup.
|
| I have a Nextcloud instance for family to store files,
| though.
| subscribed wrote:
| Dual booting with windows running on the same box? Sooner
| or later windows WILL destroy the other system.
| rkomorn wrote:
| That or you'll get into an argument with
| UEFI/Windows/Bitlocker.
| jimangel2001 wrote:
| I've been dual booting windows/arch for almost 1 years
| now. Except the rare case that windows fucks my grub and
| I have to mkconfig again it'd been smooth sailing.
| Fabricio20 wrote:
| Dual booting is the worst possible combination, given that
| any windows update will kill the linux bootloader (major
| update to be fair, but it will happen and then you have to
| recovery iso to fix the bootloader every time). Plus having
| to disable all boot optimizations on the windows side
| because of tainted filesystem that linux can't figure out
| without risk of data destruction. I'd rather just use a VM
| - but the same games that don't run on linux also dont want
| you playing in a VM.
| righthand wrote:
| This is no longer true, and has been for close to a
| decade now. If you sandbox the Windows bootloader in a
| directory it will not be able to mess up your custom boot
| loading config, especially booting to the kernel from
| UEFI.
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| The Daws of my choice do not run on Linux.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| Because the ads are the devil I know and can be defeated. Linux
| for desktop has been the bottom contender YoY because it is
| still not reliable enough for daily use, especially on laptops.
| Pooge wrote:
| > it is still not reliable enough for daily use
|
| I don't know what your requirements are because I can say the
| exact same for Windows.
|
| > especially on laptops
|
| I agree with this but only if you have Nvidia drivers.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| My requirement is not to have a random Linux evening.
| Whenever I try Linux, it eventually involves one or two of
| these Linux evenings to get something working or something
| fixed. I'm just done with those. Windows on laptop will
| sleep and wake consistently without bluescreen. Once the
| ads are removed, its great. I much prefer battling ad
| injection to battling critical functional issues. Ads can
| be ignored until I do something about them; Kernel
| panicking and locked up screen cannot be ignored.
| Pooge wrote:
| Granted, I don't use the sleep feature because I'm on a
| desktop and seeding Linux ISOs.
|
| But whenever I run into an issue after an update, I just
| rollback and wait for a few more days because it usually
| gets fixed. More often than not, it's not even an issue
| that deserves to rollback, let alone spend a whole
| evening troubleshooting.
|
| Next time you try a Linux distribution, may I suggest
| openSUSE Tumbleweed with KDE Plasma?
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| I exclusively use Linux on servers now. I'm not really
| trying anything for desktop anymore.
| rkomorn wrote:
| Distros like Mint, Ubuntu, Bluefin, etc all annoy me to the
| same extent as Windows.
|
| Distros like Arch, NixOS (my current laptop driver) or even
| Debian require a bunch of tinkering to get some things to
| behave properly.
|
| Also, I get tired of all the tech "reboots", eg the 3 or 4
| different ways of setting up network or DNS, pipewire vs
| pulseaudio vs whatever, Wayland vs X11, etc.
| Pooge wrote:
| > require a bunch of tinkering to get some things to behave
| properly
|
| > the 3 or 4 different ways of setting up network or DNS,
| pipewire vs pulseaudio vs whatever, Wayland vs X11, etc
|
| Sounds like a problem with your distribution. I've been on
| openSUSE Tumbleweed for _years_ and I 've never had to tinker
| with _any_ of those.
| rkomorn wrote:
| Ah yes. The Linux user is always holding it wrong.
|
| In my case it stems from having to deal with multiple
| distros (and multiple generations of distros, eg 3 LTS
| Ubuntus) professionally.
|
| In other cases, distros give a choice on which tools to
| use, usually because the new one is better (but also
| happens to come with its own new bugs).
|
| Unrelated, I love that any "why aren't you using Linux?"
| question is actually almost always just a thinly veiled
| "let me tell you why you're wrong" plant.
| Pooge wrote:
| > The Linux user is always holding it wrong
|
| That's actually the opposite of what I said. All those
| issues seem to come from the fact that the user didn't
| choose a distribution where it's "one-click install".
|
| If you came to me and said "I tried Arch Linux and my
| installation broke after every update", I think it's fair
| to say that it's something you should've expected
| _before_ you installed the distribution. It 's unfair to
| make the comparison for stability between Windows and
| Linux if your only example is Arch Linux.
|
| So yes, I maintain that the distribution choice is
| important and that if you _constantly_ run into issues,
| it 's probably a problem with your distribution (or your
| use thereof).
| rkomorn wrote:
| "You chose the wrong distro" is very much in the "you're
| holding it wrong" vein, in my book.
|
| If there's one thing I'll admit to "doing it wrong" it's
| that I've been on a distro-hopping binge the past few
| years because I've (fortunately) not actually needed my
| laptop as a daily driver, so I've experienced a bunch of
| them and, so far, none of them have given me a compelling
| reason to stay.
|
| Many have been interesting (particularly NixOS and
| Bluefin), some have been easy until you decide you want
| to get away from defaults (Mint comes to mind). All of
| them have had some quirks/issues.
|
| I haven't tried a SUSE in probably 25 years so maybe
| that'll be my next hop.
|
| Mind you, I've had Linux devices for 30 years and I was
| also a FreeBSD-as-my-main-desktop user for about a
| decade, so it's not like I'm not into this kind of tech.
| Pooge wrote:
| I see. Sorry if I came off as trying to invalidate your
| experience. That's not what I meant.
|
| I've tried about 4 or 5 distros before settling on
| openSUSE Tumbleweed (now on my 4th or so year). Linux
| Mint, Fedora, Kubuntu, Solus, Manjaro...
|
| Ironically, I find Tumbleweed (a rolling distro) more
| reliable than all the others I've tried. I can't say it's
| stable per se, but if something breaks you can rollback
| very easily. Doesn't break often, though.
| subscribed wrote:
| It was the same problems on the Fedora and Ubuntu since
| ever (I have Linux-based work laptop). Also on Fedora i had
| to upgrade very slowly, so they could release bugfixes -
| stable new releases were always crippling my ** Dell
| somehow.
|
| Easier to work on than Windows but my Linux pisses me off
| every day.
|
| Problems with docks, forgetting all monitor setups except
| for the last dock (I use three, two at the office, one at
| home), Zoom ALWAYS having problems with screensharing,
| Network Manager issues since forever (can't VPN like a
| human being, have to use vpnc like an animal), etc, etc.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| I've been using openSUSE Tumbleweed for years and while it
| is decently stable, it is far from perfect.
|
| For example i think the first issue any new user will face
| is with many codecs not being available in the official
| repository distros, making various sites (and video plays)
| unusable. The solution to _that_ one is simple, add
| packman, which is a community repository that contains all
| codecs - but IIRC packman is not mentioned anywhere during
| the install, it is something you need to search for (it is
| in the wiki). However, packman very often conflicts with
| the official repos when it comes to updates, making all
| GUI-based ones (that do not seem to handle cross-repo
| conflicts like zypper) pretty much unusable as they always
| give up in the presence of a conflict. And unfortunately
| some comments i 've seen (mainly on Reddit) from people
| working on the distro seem to indicate at least a minor
| hostility towards using packman, so i do not see this being
| solved any time soon.
|
| For an experienced Linux user this is a trivial issue,
| something that i doubt most (long time) openSUSE Tumbleweed
| users would even think about, but for someone new to Linux
| it can be a larger issue they wont find in distros like
| Debian (though they may find other issues :-P).
|
| There have been other issues i had with openSUSE
| Tumbleweed, like -e.g- at some point after an update every
| 3D game had some significant input lag regardless of vsync
| state. I never solved that one, i just rolled back updates
| (snapper is _great_ for that, but again an advanced Linux
| user feature) until at some point -months later- the
| problem stopped happening. Though now i have another issue
| where the X server randomly starts not updating the screen
| for random numbers of milliseconds - essentially it feels
| as if the entire thing is stuttering - but weirdly enough
| there are no CPU or GPU usage spikes and it doesn 't seem
| to be relevant to CPU/GPU usage at all. If anything, it
| does _not_ happen at all if there is some OpenGL or Vulkan
| program running in a window (so it doesn 't affect games at
| all, just regular desktop use) and sometimes i just end up
| running vkcube in another virtual desktop (it doesn't
| matter if the output is visible or not) to avoid it. My
| guess is that there is some sort of scheduling bug in the
| modesetting driver as i never had that issue with the
| amdgpu driver (my guess is the modesetting driver doesn't
| get as much testing as the amdgpu driver on AMD GPUs), but
| the amdgpu driver causes the X server to hang after i
| suspend and resume my desktop since i got a RX 7900 XTX (it
| did not happen with my RX 5700 XT, which was rock solid),
| so it is choice between the lesser evil.
| Netcob wrote:
| If Windows keeps going in this direction, I will try again.
|
| But in the past 20 years I tried using Linux on the desktop a
| couple of times.
|
| It always ends the same way - out of the blue it refuses to
| boot. Of course there's usually a solution, but I just really
| don't like that my PC can just suddenly decide that I'll be
| troubleshooting for the rest of the day, usually in front of
| some very minimal "maintenance" CLI. And that's if I got the
| time - I may have to use my laptop for the rest of the week,
| now dreading the weekend instead of welcoming it.
|
| Right now I'd have to do a bunch of research first. Would I
| still be able to play all the games I play with my friends once
| a week? I have 3 monitors, one of them has a different DPI than
| the others, did they fix that by now? I got a stream deck, will
| that be essentially useless? Is my webcam / mic supported? Do I
| need to learn about various audio architectures before I can
| ever use a mic again? Which ones of the dozens of apps I use
| every day can be made to run under Linux?
|
| It'll probably take a 40-hour work week to get to like 90% of
| where I was on Windows, and then I'd consider myself lucky that
| I got that much to work at all. And then I'd start waiting for
| the first "troubleshooting day".
|
| With all that negativity I have to also say that I adore Linux
| on the server. When all you need in terms of hardware is
| basically a CPU and any number of storage devices and all you
| get in terms of UI is SSH, Linux is far superior to anything
| else.
| righthand wrote:
| If you want to avoid boot issues, stay away from Arch-based
| platforms. Their goofy pacman installer has borked my boot
| numerous times. I prefer Debian-based or specifically for
| recent-enough-packages-and-stable desktop, Debian Testing.
| puika wrote:
| Wouldn't all boot issues caused by pacman shenanigans be
| solved by setting up snapper or equivalent? Luckily haven't
| experienced one so far
| Saris wrote:
| My time involved in making Linux work right mainly, there's
| always minor issues that take a lot of effort to solve. Like my
| audio interface has CH 1&2 working fine, but CH 3&4 are at half
| volume no matter what I do, and after waking from sleep it
| stops working entirely. And this is an interface with no
| special drivers needed.
|
| Also Lightroom and Fusion 360 don't run on Linux, fusion kind
| of works through wine but barely, and lightroom does not work
| at all.
|
| Half the time I woke it from sleep the lockscreen would be
| broken and unresponsive too, requiring a reboot.
|
| Overall its just too much time to figure out these problems,
| windows just works with very little involvement on my part.
| detritus wrote:
| Software that's unavailable on Linux? That I use literally all
| day, every day?
|
| I get that's a car-aazy answer, but here I am.
| Jaxan wrote:
| Because it doesn't work reliably on the surface pro 4. Yes, I
| have tried surface-linux, and no it doesn't work well enough.
| When shutting down, the machine actually doesn't shut down and
| my battery was dead the next morning. The boot process
| sometimes hangs. The OS doesn't properly differentiate between
| finger and stylus. It doesn't seem to do palm recognition.
| Etc...
|
| I know this is a special case: hardware with specific Microsoft
| firmware. But I imagine that other people have other specific
| cases.
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| This is what I posted last time:
|
| > I so badly want to jump ship entirely, but there's several
| things holding me back. I do music production as a hobby and
| Ableton Live doesn't play nice with Linux. In fact it seems
| anything that is resource intensive without native linux
| support has some issues. I'm also an MS stack developer, so
| things like Visual Studio Pro aren't available (although I've
| been using Cursor IDE more and more these days). Lastly I have
| some games acquired through "the high seas" in which a work-
| around doesn't exist for compatibility.
|
| The responses I got were to switch to different software. No,
| no, and no. I paid a lot of money for Ableton Suite and poured
| many many hours into learning how to use it; it's the DAW I
| prefer to use, I don't want to switch.
|
| Having said this, I did try to dual boot recently with Linux
| Mint, and once again ran into headaches getting my Logitech
| mouse buttons to work.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Ableton seems to run under Proton (a compatability layer
| intended for games) with reasonable-but-slightly-higher-
| latency of 16-20ms per user reports.
|
| This should generally work for games of various origins as
| well.
|
| Extra mouse buttons should generally map correctly. For me,
| my Logitech MX Master 3 works under Arch. You may need to add
| udev rules if your mouse generally works but additional
| buttons don't seem bindable.
|
| Try an Arch linux based distro, Omarchy or Manjaro. Most of
| these tweaky things will generally work better since you will
| be on the latest versions of software.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| If Linux was so good shit would run faster not slower.
|
| Objectively if you want to run desktop performance
| intensive software, Linux is not the primary place unless
| it's AI/HPC or crypto related. Linux is a bad choice for
| gaming and people like you who try to pretend like it's not
| are wrong and they should feel bad for spreading lies on
| the internet.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| Funny, because all the LLMs are more than happy to spit out the
| steps. Alphabet, if you want to get ahead, you need to be sure
| you're consistent. It's literally 4 clicks to get the same info
| from your sister product.
| john_alan wrote:
| Anyone still using Windows for anything but gaming is an idiot.
| juangacovas wrote:
| And you know it because you're forced to use windows somewhere?
| president_zippy wrote:
| We really need some antitrust enforcement right about now.
|
| When second and fourth largest companies by market cap find it in
| their financial best interest to collaborate with each other, we
| have a problem.
|
| In healthy markets, two companies that harvest and sell data as a
| major source of revenue would want to pull an Auric Goldfinger
| and disrupt one another's data collection practices to decrease
| the supply and increase the price of ad-relevant data.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-11-08 23:01 UTC)