[HN Gopher] When stick figures fought
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       When stick figures fought
        
       Author : ani_obsessive
       Score  : 338 points
       Date   : 2025-11-04 00:48 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (animationobsessive.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (animationobsessive.substack.com)
        
       | King-Aaron wrote:
       | I was knee-deep in the flash animation scene through the late 90s
       | early 00s, and I don't remember anyone calling anyone 'Flashers'.
       | China-only I suppose.
       | 
       | I did think Stick Death came out before Xiao Xiao?
        
         | QuantumNomad_ wrote:
         | There was a group on deviantArt called flashers. I wasn't a
         | member myself, but some of their members made some neat stuff I
         | remember.
         | 
         | The group hasn't been active for many years now it looks like,
         | but the group page still exists.
         | 
         | https://www.deviantart.com/flashers
         | 
         | Group founded 2004.
         | 
         | There's not much in the group gallery now, so probably I was
         | looking in the individual galleries of some of the members and
         | I think some of the time some member would make something and
         | post it to Albino Blacksheep and sites like that and maybe post
         | a journal entry about it to their own individual journal on
         | their own profile.
         | 
         | deviantArt also had IRC-like group chats. Flashers had a chat
         | room. There's a link to it still in the about section of the
         | group, but that link doesn't work any more. Even if a group
         | didn't have much posted into its gallery they could have a lot
         | of member activity in those chat rooms. And from what I
         | remember, I think I visited the flashers chat room a few times
         | and that it was pretty active.
         | 
         | I think some chat rooms were private, and some were open even
         | to people who were not in any particular group.
        
           | King-Aaron wrote:
           | Yeah, I miss DeviantArt.
        
         | samplatt wrote:
         | >I did think Stick Death came out before Xiao Xiao?
         | 
         | Definitely remember Stick Death in highschool around '99-'01,
         | 2+ years before this flashers group supposedly started.
        
         | FugeDaws wrote:
         | Yeh stick death definitely was before Xiao Xiao. I remember all
         | the lads at school sat around a computer in school binge
         | watching them all.
        
       | taneq wrote:
       | That's spooky, we were literally just talking about stickdeath in
       | the office and then this shows up.
        
         | nkrisc wrote:
         | And most people weren't talking about it, but it's inevitable
         | that some were, and I guess that's you. Surely you're not
         | surprised about all the times when you're not talking about
         | something that then shows up on HN?
         | 
         | You talk about stuff everyday, and stuff shows up on HN
         | everyday, eventually they'll coincide.
        
           | taneq wrote:
           | Oh my god do you think it was selection bias? No way, I'm
           | certain it was spooky action at a distance! /s
        
             | soulofmischief wrote:
             | The fallacy in question would be sharpshooter's fallacy.
             | Selection bias is when a sample misrepresents the
             | population.
        
               | taneq wrote:
               | I kinda feel like these are two different views on the
               | same basic 'mismatch-between-sampling-and-distribution'
               | fallacy, what am I missing here?
        
       | robmerki wrote:
       | SFDT was the first online community I was a part of. It was a
       | special time on the early internet. I feel so lucky to have been
       | a very small part of it.
        
         | fortydegrees wrote:
         | Can't believe this is the only mention of sfdt so far on this
         | thread. I have similar nostalgia about it being the first
         | online community I joined. Collaborating with others, getting a
         | glimpse into their personal lives, chatting off-platform on
         | MSN/AIM. I wonder if that experience exists for kids in the
         | modern day internet...
        
           | soulofmischief wrote:
           | You can intentionally seek out such places today, but the
           | average internet denizen sticks to a few known mass
           | communities. If someone is lucky, they get involved in a
           | small subreddit or group chat.
           | 
           | Group chats are the closest thing we have to that experience
           | today, but they're probably more socially-oriented on
           | average, unlike the groups I rolled with back in the aughts
           | which were all heavily creative- and fandom-oriented.
        
       | andrewrn wrote:
       | Woah, this brought back memories. Like that one flash game where
       | you played a stickman hitman.
        
       | gtramont wrote:
       | Xiao Xiao and Ninjai *chef's kiss*
        
       | charcircuit wrote:
       | Youtube used Flash.
        
       | dlhavema wrote:
       | I loved the xiao xiao series. They were amazing.
        
       | me_vinayakakv wrote:
       | I remembered Alan Becker (https://youtube.com/@alanbecker) who
       | creates stories with an array of his stick figure characters.
       | 
       | Sometimes, they interact with real world too!
        
         | JohnHammersley wrote:
         | Yes when I saw stick figures mentioned on HN I immediately
         | thought of his "Animator vs Animation" [1] (to which I've just
         | rediscovered the title!)
         | 
         | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npTC6b5-yvM
        
           | me_vinayakakv wrote:
           | Yeah, I discovered the channel through this series as well.
           | 
           | "Animation vs Physics"[1] was video which got started me with
           | the channel. The presentation is beautiful there!
           | 
           | [1]: https://youtu.be/ErMSHiQRnc8
        
       | uvaursi wrote:
       | Yep. StickDeath was the shit.
        
       | swyx wrote:
       | i was OBSSESSSED with this growing up. i had no idea about the
       | origin or real name or that it was chinese origin. incredible.
       | thanks to whoever found and submitted this
        
       | vpribish wrote:
       | I added ELIZA to shittalk for a statistical ML model to play
       | bouts on 'stickfight' PVP game around 2000. :)
        
       | amarant wrote:
       | Ah man, these are some awesome memories! Hot damn I liked these
       | when I was a kid! I was first introduced to them on a LAN party.
       | We would pass these kinds of things to eachother between CS 1.5
       | matches (VLC can play any file format!)
       | 
       | I remember towards the end of my lan party going days, these sick
       | fights were finally outdone by the much more advanced Killer
       | Bean.
       | 
       | Just a bean, trying to get some sleep.
       | 
       | Those were the days
        
         | PyWoody wrote:
         | Killer Bean! That's exactly where my mind went as well.
         | 
         | I'm so happy people still remember it. We used to watch 2.1 at
         | every LAN, too.
        
       | kevinfiol wrote:
       | Was not expecting to read about Xiao Xiao today! I loved Xiao
       | Xiao as a preteen, and spent many hours playing Xiao Xiao 4 [1],
       | or re-watching the other Xiao Xiaos over and over again.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/25718
        
       | pixelmelt wrote:
       | Stick figures still fight to this day! Go check out hyunsdojo
        
       | qwertytyyuu wrote:
       | Hyun's dojo was awesome
        
       | Semaphor wrote:
       | Ah, XiaoXiao. Under the amazingly named
       | `E:\Storage\Old\Fun\old\XiaoXiao` I have fight (xiaoxiao1).avi,
       | XiaoXiao_City_Plaza.swf, and xiaoxiao2.swf - xiaoxiao9.swf
        
         | samplatt wrote:
         | It wasn't until the mention of "City_Plaza.swf" that memories
         | finally came flooding back.
        
         | swah wrote:
         | Send us a file listing for `fun' :)
        
           | Semaphor wrote:
           | That has a *lot* of random images I downloaded. From street
           | art, over those "priceless" memes people used to make. All in
           | 
           | The videos directly there are a bunch of internet famous
           | things, some of them in German:
           | 
           | Basshunter_Boten_Anna_German.avi,
           | PatchMeUpMusicVideoByRootKit-GeekVideo.avi, trafo-
           | entkopplung.avi, wow_forporn.avi, fainting goats.flv,
           | gangbang.flv, Gruftis1989.flv, hape kerkeling.flv,
           | HumanCamera.flv, Wii.vs.PS3.flv, der_stack.m4v,
           | hacker_packen_aus.m4v, 3dshot.mov, ACUVUE_Hearts_on_Fire.mov,
           | AtheistenOnly - JesusVideo.mov, fsm-spotting.mpg,
           | Stroh.flv.MPG, tetris.mpg, test.swf, theresheis.swf,
           | blowdarts.wmv, einsteinthebird.wmv, FLURL-dot-
           | com-30292-Mafia.wmv, FLURL-dot-com-50776-korn_mosh.wmv,
           | FLURL-dot-com-51227-pop.wmv, getalife.wmv,
           | hamburgertrick.wmv, insane.wmv, mariopiano.wmv,
           | nintendochoir.wmv, SOAD_gremlins.wmv,
           | supersoakerflamethrower.wmv, theglasstrick.wmv,
           | TRANIX.NET-11-String-Bass.wmv
           | 
           | "gangbang.flv" is some French movie student project "Revenge
           | of the Gangbang Zombies", not actual porn ;)
           | 
           | The Fun\old folder has these:
           | 
           | Folders: CS ft. Southpark, Dela&Ort, HTF, Knight Rider,
           | Lenore, XiaoXiao
           | 
           | Files: AYB.swf, AYS.swf, beer.swf, c_d_mmorpg.swf, cow.swf,
           | crab.swf, cruise.swf, dengdeng.swf, fuckher.swf, hhonda-
           | ad-300k.swf, humor_pong.swf, knowjackschitt.swf,
           | metaluohigh.swf, optical.exe, rgb.swf, starwarz.swf,
           | trafikskolen.swf, urbanlegends.swf, winrg.swf
        
             | riffraff wrote:
             | Is the first one the "Anna is a bot" song?
             | 
             | I had actually built a bot named Anna to trick friends on
             | IRC (with AIML) so when I came upon the song it felt
             | hilarious.
        
         | bovermyer wrote:
         | I'm jealous. My files from those days did not survive; too many
         | hard drive failures and lost or destroyed CDs.
         | 
         | This is particularly sad to me because I dabbled in Flash
         | animation too back then, since I was in art school at the time.
         | None of my creations survived. Some were even acceptable work.
        
           | phantasmish wrote:
           | Archive.org has a _lot_ of the old flash stuff, including
           | Xiao Xiao.
        
             | bovermyer wrote:
             | Sure, but the files I'm talking about were never online.
        
       | enricozb wrote:
       | I used to make animations with https://pivotanimator.net/ a lot
       | as a kid, trying to make fight scenes like these. A sort of
       | related thing is ToriBash, which is kind of a multiplayer 3D
       | animation game where you fight each other by making decisions on
       | which muscles to contract at each time interval.
       | 
       | Loved this stuff so much. I miss my summers off from school,
       | where I would never think of a day gone as time "spent".
        
         | rl3 wrote:
         | > _A sort of related thing is ToriBash ..._
         | 
         | If memory serves, the sound effects were a fantastic touch on
         | top of the multiplayer hilarity of that game.
         | 
         | Looks like there's still an active community around it today,
         | based on a cursory YouTube search.
        
         | alansaber wrote:
         | Yep, had Pivot on a disk. Countless hours lost making my own
         | sprites, and I remember the joy of downloading other peoples
         | sprites that were actually good
        
         | Hunpeter wrote:
         | Oooh, I really liked ToriBash! I didn't play for very long for
         | whatever reason, but I did think it was a creative and fun
         | game.
        
         | cyrialize wrote:
         | I was just about to make the same comment! I never remembered
         | the name of this software. Thank you so much for posting it!
        
         | mcpar-land wrote:
         | if you liked toribash, also check out Your Only Move Is Hustle
         | (or YOMI hustle) which is similarly 'turn based' but in 2d.
         | Closest thing I've found to playable Xiao Xiao.
        
           | kipchak wrote:
           | You might also like 'Stick It To The Stickman' and 'One
           | Finger Death Punch' 1 & 2.
        
         | wpm wrote:
         | I still have a bunch of .piv files on a CD backup I burned on
         | my PC right before I switched to an iMac G5 in the summer of
         | 2007. I should fire Pivot again and reminisce. If I recall
         | correctly, they were absolutely crude and incredibly poorly
         | done.
        
         | nidnogg wrote:
         | Toribash is awesome! I last checked it a year ago but it was
         | still alive then [1]. Worth checking out still. People who were
         | great at it back in the day were legitimately doing dark arts
         | with the tools the game came with. I wonder if we'll have an
         | era of appreciation and rediscovery for pre-AI software.
         | 
         | [1] - https://www.toribash.com/
        
         | avandekleut wrote:
         | I remember spending hours and hours on pivot and forums like
         | droidz.org which used to host animations, models, and forums. I
         | even remember learning about "easing" and different "levels" of
         | animation and collabs as showcased on darkdemon.org[1]
         | 
         | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkqDoAYKG4A
        
         | josh-sematic wrote:
         | This unlocked some good memories that have been sitting latent
         | for probably 15 years or so.
        
       | deepsun wrote:
       | Macromedia Flash had probably the best UX of all the programs
       | ever created. It all goes downhill from there.
        
         | silisili wrote:
         | I feel that way about a lot of things. Maybe it's just
         | nostalgia...but heck we had Flash, Frontpage, VB,...we were
         | spoiled.
         | 
         | I sometimes wonder why such concepts went away, and everything
         | became far more complicated.
        
           | muzani wrote:
           | Some tools were certainly better, like Flash. Mobile made a
           | lot of things complicated. Half the game dev tools still
           | don't run properly for mobile. HTML5 was supposed to make
           | things easier, and for a while it did, but it got rapidly
           | more complicated afterwards.
           | 
           | Some things are much better today, like Procreate.
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | I dont think HTML5 was supposed to make things easier. It
             | is just that major players wanted to get rid of flash for
             | own reason (some of them valid) and HTML5 was something
             | they were able to point at. It was never easier or even
             | half replacement, it was significantly more complicated and
             | crappier experience for an average normal creator.
             | 
             | It never even got some convincing demo. All those I have
             | seen at the time were the "spend a lot more time to produce
             | something much less impressive" kind of anti demos.
        
               | phendrenad2 wrote:
               | There _still_ aren 't any convincing demos.
        
         | xeonmc wrote:
         | Is there any reason why they couldn't be emulated with
         | WASM+canvas?
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | No, and a lot of Flash projects have already been converted;
           | notably, Google was one of the first to release a flash-to-
           | html5 converter, because a lot of ads were Flash at the time.
           | 
           | But Adobe's missed opportunity was keeping Flash alive,
           | "just" adding a html5 / canvas / JS version instead of the
           | browser plug-ins that were killed when smartphones/tablets
           | refused to support them.
        
           | Pxtl wrote:
           | It's the flash animation/design tools that are missing from
           | modern young people, not the ability to render it into the
           | browser.
        
       | AmbroseBierce wrote:
       | These animations got me into Flash and soon after into
       | programming thanks to ActionScript, one copycat music video that
       | maybe made even stronger impression in teenage me was a sad
       | adult-themed music video from 2004, I just found ii after looking
       | online for a bit: I love death - Lodger (Finnish band)
       | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BoFQV4jXun4
        
         | rubee64 wrote:
         | I remember that video well
        
           | AmbroseBierce wrote:
           | I think it made teenage me empathize a bit more with my
           | parents, about how bleak can existence feel.
        
         | tetris11 wrote:
         | Same, I had been making stickman animations in powerpoint of
         | all things, before a friend mentioned I should try FlashMX.
         | 
         | I even made this terrible thing as my first foray into AS2:
         | 
         | https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/408469
        
           | AmbroseBierce wrote:
           | I made a few Flash animations and a couple made it to and MTV
           | show here in Latin America called "Flash MTV" that featured
           | some of the animations people sent them, unfortunately I no
           | longer have a copy of any of them and they don't seem to be
           | online, although you can find some made by other people on
           | YouTube.
           | 
           | My initial career idea was to become an animator but I found
           | forums of senior animators complaining about low wages and
           | long hours and it made me second guess myself about all that
           | and I slowly picked up programming instead, I did get a copy
           | of a great book called "The Animator's Survival Kit" by
           | Richard Williams, best known for directing "Who Framed Roger
           | Rabbit?", the book still lives in my library and I hold it in
           | great steem.
        
       | wengo314 wrote:
       | what a trip down memory lane.
       | 
       | for some extra nostalgia, check out "one finger death punch 2"
       | game (and its prequel). i bet it's sort of an homage to those
       | animations.
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | I remember a "choose your own story" stick figure Flash app,
       | called _Time to Die_ (I believe), where the "protagonist" was a
       | condemned convict, used as target practice by scientists.
       | 
       | You could pick weapons used by the scientists. In most, he'd just
       | get blown away, but in one scenario, he grabs the gun, and kills
       | everyone in the facility.
       | 
       | Not sure if it was this guy, or was just inspired by him.
        
       | danhau wrote:
       | This unlocked memories I forgot I had. Not only playing these
       | games, but Flash introduced me to gamedev. I can clearly remember
       | struggling in Actionscript, trying to get collision detection and
       | resolution working. I never got it to work properly lol.
       | 
       | By the way, if anyone wants to relive some old flash
       | games/movies, there is https://ruffle.rs/, an open source Flash
       | implementation. It's great!
        
         | Razengan wrote:
         | Man the Flash era, and the overall vibe of creativity on the
         | internet back then (hey it was only 20 years ago), was the kind
         | where you could feel a limitless potential for the future,
         | where everyone would be awesome.
         | 
         | Then it all congealed into the tentacles of 4-5 corporations
         | and now we're forever stuck in their "How do you do fellow
         | kids" cringefest..
         | 
         | AI also ha[s/d] potential, but it's already getting crippled at
         | birth by corporate idiocy and lawsuit fever.
        
         | mock-possum wrote:
         | Honestly happy memories of Actionscript 3 are a big factor in
         | how easily I cozied up to TypeScript.
        
           | rasso wrote:
           | Absolutely, me too!! AS3 was a beautiful language.
        
       | nunodonato wrote:
       | the Xiao Xiao Flash series were amazing. I always wondered when
       | someone would come up with a beat'em-up game with that style.
       | Simple, fast-paced, lots of free movement and use of
       | tools/weapons.
        
       | icemelt8 wrote:
       | I grew up learning Flash and started my love for programming due
       | to ActionScript 2 then 3, is there anything like this today I am
       | looking for something for my 10 year old daughter.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | For games or animation?
         | 
         | Godot might be today's analogue for games.
        
       | thaumasiotes wrote:
       | > It was the era when a major company could brush off the bad PR
       | that comes with copying a major online artist. Is it believable
       | that _no one_ involved in the Nike ads had seen _Xiao Xiao_? Not
       | really -- it was popular with young people worldwide. Yet Zhu was
       | new media at a time when _old_ media ruled. What could he do?
       | 
       | This doesn't make any sense. From earlier in the same article:
       | 
       | > Zhu didn't invent violent stickman animations. In the '90s, the
       | Western site Stick Figure Death Theatre hosted exactly what its
       | name implied. But _Xiao Xiao_ , and its mix of Jackie Chan with
       | Jet Li with _The Matrix_ , perfected the idea.
       | 
       | > Either way, it was _Xiao Xiao_ that made "stick fights" massive
       | online. Clones were rampant -- even Stick Figure Death Theatre
       | had them. As one paper reported in 2002:
       | 
       | >> The Web's legions of part-time Flash animators have begun
       | producing their own copies of _Xiao Xiao_ -- so many, in fact,
       | that there's a whole portal dedicated to them. Stick Figure Death
       | Theatre ... has so many stick man knockoffs, you have to wonder
       | why Zhu doesn't just give up.
       | 
       | If we assume that people at Nike were familiar with Xiao Xiao...
       | _and_ that they were also familiar with the mountains of similar
       | material, what are we saying they did wrong?
        
       | Luker88 wrote:
       | The first animation that made me love these was the old 'stickman
       | vs door' gif,
       | 
       | Thanks for reminding me of that one
        
       | reactordev wrote:
       | Dude completely forgets StickDeath.com which came before all of
       | this...
        
         | farseer wrote:
         | The woke crowd of today would have gotten stickdeath.com banned
         | from the internet were it made today :)
        
           | reactordev wrote:
           | Nonsense. Senseless violence in animation has been around as
           | long as studio ghibli.
        
       | ZeroGravitas wrote:
       | I was going to mention MTV's Liquid Television animation showcase
       | as a potential inspiration for this.
       | 
       | That link seems partly confirmed since they mention an online
       | predecessor called Stick Figure Death Theatre and the Liquid
       | Television segment (which re-enacted famous movie scenes with
       | stick figure animations) was called Stick Figure Theatre.
       | 
       | Pretty much each individual segment of that show was mind blowing
       | (it launched Beavid and Butthead) but the stick figure
       | interpretation of Night of he Living Dead stuck with me for
       | years.
       | 
       | YouTube has a compilation: https://youtu.be/-M7-Sew5aU8
        
       | AlexAplin wrote:
       | Stick figures run through a lot of amateur digital animation, for
       | probably obvious reasons. Pivot reigned on a lot of early YouTube
       | and the stubby stick figure style ran through a lot of Flipnote
       | Hatena. I'm not sure if it's simply that standards for amateur
       | digital content have evolved, or if we have lost the character of
       | small platforms like SFDT and Flipnote, but I do find stick
       | figures absent today on the large platforms we've all herded
       | towards. A lot of what I see is definitely buoyed by Flipnote
       | diehards.
        
         | Archit3ch wrote:
         | Wow, Flipnote on the DS brings back memories.
         | 
         | For the uninitiated, behold peak animation:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-IbwOveII
        
       | blacklion wrote:
       | I remember series of stick man fighting cartoons which starts
       | from simple kung-fu/gun porno in big office tower of (presumably)
       | evil corporation, but progressed to some infernal fights, with
       | Jesus, ghosts, hell, etc.
       | 
       | I'm not sure it was XiaoXiao, I (don't) remember some other
       | letter combination in the names of files.
        
         | aj_hackman wrote:
         | Madness Combat
        
           | blacklion wrote:
           | Yep, thank you!
        
       | anymouse123456 wrote:
       | I owe my technology career to Flash.
       | 
       | Still find it incredibly sad that Adobe and Steve Jobs were able
       | to destroy it together.
       | 
       | This tool was able to draw in creative, previously non-technical
       | people and provide a gradual ramp of complexity that we could
       | navigate.
       | 
       | Nothing has come close since.
        
         | nntwozz wrote:
         | I remember the white MacBook Core 2 Duo with 100% CPU, fans
         | maxed out while watching YouTube 720p.
         | 
         | This was months before the iPhone announcement.
         | 
         | I can see why they killed it.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | Because it was a security nightmare
        
             | IshKebab wrote:
             | No it was a usability nightmare. Watching Flash Youtube on
             | Android technically worked but it was a horrible
             | experience.
             | 
             | Google were ok with "works but janky af", but Apple
             | weren't.
        
               | kakacik wrote:
               | We could have kept that creative environment (that seem
               | to just disappear without any alternative to this day)
               | while leaving videos to evolve as they did.
               | 
               | People here complain like they have issues with long term
               | memory, but reality was - there was no real web video
               | before. That apple had more issues than others was
               | problem that should have been contained to apple walled
               | garden alone. World was, is and will be much larger than
               | that.
        
               | empath75 wrote:
               | That 'creative environment' was mostly used for obnoxious
               | advertising by the time flash died.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | Maybe, but playing videos was 99% of the use case for
               | Flash by the time it was killed by Apple. Adobe _could_
               | have kept maintaining it for the 1% Flash games, ads and
               | terrible websites, but you can see why they gave up...
        
         | jb1991 wrote:
         | The product itself still exists as Adobe Animate, I think (or
         | one of the Adobe CC tools). It's just as good or better than it
         | ever was, with the same workflow. But instead of exporting to
         | SWF now people just export to video and share it on video
         | platforms. Lots of great stuff still being done with it on
         | Youtube.
        
           | riffraff wrote:
           | But flash was interactive, videos are not. I miss the days
           | kongregate had a bunch of new fun games regularly.
           | 
           | I suppose itch.io fills that niche now.
        
         | empath75 wrote:
         | The problem with flash is that it was a security, performance
         | and usability nightmare for web browsers.
         | 
         | Yes the games and videos were cool, but 99% of the usage of
         | Flash was awful ads and UI/UX elements.
        
           | hollerith wrote:
           | For most of Flash's existence on the web, I had my computers
           | configured to block flash. (The block was achieved by
           | removing files IIRC).
        
           | jonbiggums22 wrote:
           | I just used an click to load flash extension in firefox back
           | then and everything was fine.
        
             | DANmode wrote:
             | True.
             | 
             | That's basically how h.264 and DRM is being done in the
             | browser for stuff like Netflix, today, right?
        
         | hangonhn wrote:
         | Flash was a poorly written piece of software. It had numerous
         | bad memory leaks and a CPU hog. It was never allowed on the
         | iPhone probably because it would have drained the batteries
         | really quickly. On top of that HTML5 was starting to catch on
         | and could eventually do everything Flash could and do it better
         | without the memory leaks and poor CPU usage. I have the very
         | unfortunate claim to the title of being an engineer on the
         | world's biggest Flash/Flex app. The memory leaks were so bad
         | that Adobe advised us to just restart the app periodically --
         | despite Adobe marketing Flex as enterprise ready. We found
         | compiler bugs for Adobe. Adobe and Jobs didn't set out to
         | destroy it. Macromedia wrote bad code that performed poorly and
         | it wasn't worth the effort for Adobe fix it once HTML5 won.
        
           | cess11 wrote:
           | None of that matters for the kind of creative work the grand
           | parent likely had in mind.
           | 
           | Perhaps there was a memory leak in Unidentified Flying
           | Assholes or the endless line of punch-a-celeb games or the
           | thousands of stick fight productions and so on, but no one
           | cared and enjoyed them immensely anyway. You could do
           | something cool without ever learning about things like memory
           | leaks or vulnerabilities in the underlying platform.
        
             | wolrah wrote:
             | > None of that matters for the kind of creative work the
             | grand parent likely had in mind.
             | 
             | Some of that did, at least for how that creative work was
             | almost exclusively delivered to the world. Those bugs were
             | not just excessive resource usage and instability, they
             | were incredibly often exploitable security flaws that were
             | regularly weaponized against a huge swath of internet
             | users. The ubiquity of the Flash browser plugin was
             | simultaneously one of the greatest strengths of Flash as a
             | creative platform and one of the greatest risks to the
             | average person browsing the web in the 2000s.
             | 
             | The plugin needed to die. Unfortunately the Flash community
             | was so firmly built around the web plugin as their
             | distribution method of choice (presumably because many of
             | us were browsing animations and playing games at
             | work/school where we couldn't necessarily download and run
             | arbitrary .exes) that the plugin was more or less a
             | diseased conjoined twin, and when it died the community
             | didn't have long left.
             | 
             | Compare this to Java where the death of the browser plugin
             | caused a number of badly designed banking sites to have to
             | be redesigned in a less stupid (but quite often still very
             | stupid) way but the community as a whole continued on
             | without huge disruption. The browser plugin was just one of
             | many places Java existed, it wasn't the dominant focus of
             | the community.
        
               | Wojtkie wrote:
               | Yeah, it's kinda crazy people are brushing over the
               | security issues. The nostalgia is huge, I get it, but
               | Flash was terrible for browsing the internet at the time.
        
         | as1mov wrote:
         | Same here, I somehow acquired a pirated copy of Flash when I
         | was 10 or 11. Went through the included offline manual and
         | within a few days somehow knew I'll probably end up doing this
         | programming thing for the rest of my life :D
         | 
         | It's sad what happened to Flash, sure we have plugin free
         | interactive content using JS but I'm not sure if anything has
         | replicated the IDE. Though I guess the decline can also be
         | attributed to the users moving onto other platforms. The kids
         | making games moved on to making Android/iOS games and the
         | animators moved to Youtube.
        
         | Night_Thastus wrote:
         | The vast majority of games I played, for years, were flash
         | games. I have a lot of fond memories of that time.
         | 
         | However, Flash sucked. It ran terribly, it was insecure, and a
         | mess to maintain. It needed to go.
        
         | DANmode wrote:
         | Unity.
        
       | andai wrote:
       | _A couple of years ago, an archivist named Ben Latimore put out
       | an ebook. Since Adobe began the retirement of Flash in 2017, he's
       | been preserving .SWF files and the history around them. His book
       | is a chronicle of the Flash era, which he sees as a lost golden
       | age. On the final page, he wrote this about that time:_
       | 
       | >... intense creativity, easy-to-access software, notable but not
       | crippling limitations, almost universal compatibility across the
       | entire technological space of its time, widespread adoption by
       | encouraging free consumption and sharing in an age where "going
       | viral" actually meant something, all combining to influence the
       | entire entertainment industry with one strike after another?
       | That's something that we'll never be able to recreate, only
       | remember fondly. All driven by a bunch of guys sitting in their
       | bedrooms who watched too much Xiao Xiao.
       | 
       | https://archive.org/details/flashpoint-a-tribute-to-web-game...
        
       | m4tthumphrey wrote:
       | I assumed this was going to be about Stick Death but I was
       | mistaken! I had never heard of XiaoXiao before this article...
       | 
       | Stick Death was online when I first starting used the WWW, I was
       | obsessed with it! It was just incredibly to me that someone could
       | easily make these animations and get them online for everyone to
       | see! I believe this around the same time as 2advanced and the
       | "Flash intro" craze...
        
         | andrepd wrote:
         | I immediately thought of Animator vs Animation!
        
       | anechouapechou wrote:
       | That's so cool. I watched all of his work, and was in the
       | animation scene, and I didn't even realize at the time, the
       | creator is Chinese! I learned how to use Flash, dabbled into
       | scripts, learned to do very basic stuff on 3DSMax, as a ~10 year
       | old little shit, and all of that most likely wouldn't have
       | happened, if it wasn't for his work -- it's safe to say that my
       | life was dramatically impacted by him. Thanks for sharing this,
       | OP!
        
       | BolexNOLA wrote:
       | Oh man I knew exactly what it was when I read the title. Xiao
       | Xiao (and Madness) was the best. Watched them over and over again
       | with friends on my family dell. What a great memory.
        
         | dmacj wrote:
         | Loved Madness, surprised it didn't get more mentions here. The
         | combination of over the top violence, techno music and hints at
         | a deeper underlying story is what made the series stick for me
         | even more than Xiao Xiao.
        
           | BolexNOLA wrote:
           | I loved playing the game too. They did a good job of making
           | you feel somewhat like the character. Being able to shoot or
           | throw basically everything lol
        
       | coryfklein wrote:
       | Is there anywhere you can watch these old flash creations like
       | Xiao Xiao and Homestar Runner with the original vector graphics?
       | The reproductions I've seen on YouTube are terrible, in part
       | because of the obvious video artifacts that don't preserve the
       | edges, but also because it loses all _interactivity_.
        
         | DoctorOW wrote:
         | If you can grab a copy of the SWF somewhere, Ruffle[0] is a
         | decent Flash replacement and compatibility is pretty good[1].
         | 
         | [0]: https://ruffle.rs/
         | 
         | [1]: https://ruffle.rs/compatibility
        
         | quietbritishjim wrote:
         | The versions linked to in the article use the original vector
         | graphics. In fact I think they're the original post location
         | (NewGrounds). From there you can follow the link to the
         | author's page, which has them all:
         | 
         | https://zhu.newgrounds.com/
        
         | p2edwards wrote:
         | H*R is up again.
         | 
         | https://homestarrunner.com/main
         | 
         | Using Ruffle. Like the others, it's somewhat recent.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestar_Runner#cite_ref-18
        
       | eddywebs wrote:
       | This was one of the .swf animation saved in our disk, I also miss
       | the demo scene.
        
       | alexchantavy wrote:
       | newgrounds.com in its heyday was so fun.
       | 
       | Also anyone else remember when websites used to make Flash intros
       | that you'd have to skip to get to the content?
        
       | SeanDav wrote:
       | > _Zhu initially won in court. Then the appeals process ran until
       | 2006, when he finally lost. The stick figures were too different,
       | according to the judges, and the imagery was too simple to
       | copyright. Nike was in the clear._
       | 
       | I am sure if I add an extra couple of pixels to the end of the
       | Nike Swoosh, I can use it for my own branding everywhere, because
       | it is not the same and a rounded tick is just too simple to
       | copyright in any case ... /sarcasm
       | 
       | I could even cite the original ruling against Zhu as a precedent
       | for extra kharma points.
        
         | observationist wrote:
         | It's not about right or wrong, it's about how many lawyers you
         | can afford. If you can afford lots of lawyers, you can run out
         | the clock, drain your opponents budgets, craft laws and lobby
         | for their passage, and all sorts of creative ways of getting
         | around doing the right thing.
         | 
         | A random creator in China in the early oughts wouldn't have a
         | chance in hell against Nike or any other big corporations,
         | trademark and copyright isn't and wasn't set up for foreign
         | citizens to leverage IP against domestic entities. Without
         | starting with a big legal team and a US corporation and having
         | all the reams of paperwork and registrations and forms in
         | triplicate, he just wasn't playing the same game. He should
         | have been reimbursed or gotten a royalty, from a moral
         | standpoint, but he didn't have any valid legal standing.
         | 
         | A court tried to be generous in the interpretation of the law
         | in order to grant him his first victory, and that would
         | probably have been a good precedent, but the law isn't really
         | designed to be flexible like that - it's very rare that "the
         | right thing" ends up congruent with how the law works in
         | practice.
        
         | dpark wrote:
         | I'm not clear what the case against Nike was. Zhu did not
         | create stick men. He wasn't even the first to publish "stick
         | fight" videos. He filed a trademark of some sort but you can't
         | take ownership over an entire class of art based on a
         | trademark. Disney can stop me from using Mickey Mouse in my
         | ads. They can't stop me from animating a mouse.
        
         | hermitcrab wrote:
         | Nike come out of the whole thing pretty badly. Why didn't they
         | just pay him a few thousand dollars to do the work?
        
       | Pxtl wrote:
       | This is what the world lost when Adobe Animate/Flash became
       | impractical to pirate and switched to a monthly subscription fee
       | for the Adobe suite.
        
       | riidom wrote:
       | Since nobody mentioned it:
       | https://store.steampowered.com/app/2085540/Stick_It_to_the_S...
        
       | mercwear wrote:
       | Some of these stick figure fight videos inspired me to make
       | copies which lead to me learning flash which lead to my first dev
       | job working in flash. Cool to see this throwback.
        
       | cess11 wrote:
       | Vaguely related is Haxe, https://haxe.org/. Originally a way to
       | do ActionScript, now it targets a lot more and is quite nice to
       | work in.
        
         | joshtynjala wrote:
         | And OpenFL https://openfl.org/ which is an implementation of
         | the Flash API written in Haxe. It can cross-compile to HTML5 or
         | native C++ mobile and desktop. Disclosure: I'm a contributor.
        
       | pksebben wrote:
       | Flash animation isn't dead, it's just called source filmmaker
       | now. Whether 'skibidi toilet' is an upgrade from stick death is
       | an argument that i'm sure lives on either side of the generation
       | gap, but amateur internet filmmaking is unquestionably alive and
       | well.
        
       | ycombinatrix wrote:
       | shame on nike
        
       | blixt wrote:
       | Wow, blast from the past. There's a fairly recent game on Steam
       | called "Stick it to the Stickman" which practically puts you in
       | control of the character in these animations. In fact I think the
       | game was directly inspired by them (There's a Devolver interview
       | with someone working on the game mentioning it[1]).
       | 
       | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2kGSAIljU
        
       | dizlexic wrote:
       | I loved stickdeath.com as a kid, but it seemed to have evolved
       | into something much darker over the years.
        
       | debugnik wrote:
       | Two games I'd strongly recommend in this style are _Your Only
       | Move is HUSTLE_ (YOMI Hustle for sort), moddable multiplayer
       | turn-based stick fights; and _One Finger Death Punch_ , fast-
       | paced brawler with a really simple control scheme.
       | 
       | Many people use the former purely to make animations.
        
       | HydroKai wrote:
       | Stick figures live on! Hyun's Dojo is the new place where stick
       | animations are. Recently the winners of a stick figure tournament
       | have been announced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO5hiRV5MTk
       | 
       | There is even a timeline if you want to know the full history;
       | https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/timeline3/latest/embed/index....
        
       | dirkderkdurk wrote:
       | Way back, before the year 2000, I desperately wanted to make my
       | own stick figure death animations, but I was too lazy, and being
       | in South Africa, we couldn't get any useful software.
       | 
       | I did however manage to get Delphi Personal Edition off a cover
       | CD from a magazine grey-imported from up-north.
       | 
       | I proceeded to create "TISFAT" (This is Stick Figure Animation
       | Theatre) in Delphi, inventing my own "inverse kinematics"
       | algorithm, quotation marks not only because I had no idea what
       | that was at the time, but I also had no way to look it up, and it
       | was ghastly (the day I found out what atan2 did unlocked
       | everything!).
       | 
       | Being a cocky teenager, I thought, "this is great!" and sent it
       | to the local version of "PC Format" magazine and got it on the
       | local coverdisc.
       | 
       | That's when I first learnt several very important things about
       | having users! Always -always- version your file formats!
       | 
       | Anyway, it somehow made its way onto "the world wide web", and
       | someone set up a forum about it, and a small community built
       | around my bug-ridden app. Then the religious wars of "Pivot vs.
       | TISFAT" started, so I reached out to the author of Pivot just to
       | say I wasn't any part of it, and I'd be keen to add support for
       | the Pivot file format.
       | 
       | Later on I learnt about verlet particle physics, made better
       | "IK", made a Pascal wrapper for the Chipmunk physics library,
       | allowing me to add physically-driven animation creation.
       | 
       | I look back with awe at younger me, because I wouldn't have the
       | energy to power on like I did, and I'd think more-than-twice
       | about showing anyone my work nowadays (I have the physical Winamp
       | part 2 video basically done, but the fear of showing it in public
       | is holding me back).
       | 
       | You can still find videos created with TISFAT on YouTube, and
       | I've still got a complete rewrite sitting on a HDD somewhere,
       | where I planned a "no UI" way of animating, targeting all the
       | "new" multi-touchscreens back then...
       | 
       | Ah, good times.
        
         | xandrius wrote:
         | Cmon show us the video :)
        
       | OisinMoran wrote:
       | Oh this is delightful! Such fond memories of the stick figure
       | fighting craze, I even turned my first maths textbook of a few
       | hundred pages into a flipbook stick figure fight, on both sides!
        
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