[HN Gopher] The Mack Super Pumper was a locomotive engined fire ...
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The Mack Super Pumper was a locomotive engined fire fighter (2018)
Author : mstngl
Score : 72 points
Date : 2025-11-03 20:37 UTC (2 hours ago)
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| MisterTea wrote:
| Ah, the Mack Super pumper. Shame Mack started to struggle in the
| 60s until the 80s and got out of the fire truck business. They
| had some very interesting designs in terms of cab design and
| components. I always loved the F model cab-over which were
| produced until the early 80s which is what the CF fire truck was
| built on.
| giobox wrote:
| That "deltic" engine just for the water pumping is incredible,
| I'd never seen that cylinder layout before.
|
| > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic
| ggm wrote:
| The type 55 "deltic" locomotives, named after army regiments
| used to do the east coast Edinburgh-London train run, there
| were 22 of them in service and one in the science museum
| London. They had the first 100mph rating for diesel passenger
| service.
|
| The engine had a unique characteristic whine or whistle. As an
| avid train spotter at Waverley station in edinburgh I loved
| hearing it, saw every one and was in the cab of two thanks to
| long suffering kind engine drivers.
|
| There was a mini deltic too. I'm not sure it went beyond a
| testbed loco.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Those are amazing engines. It's a pity that in the future
| we'll just be using magnets and coils, there something about
| these designs that moves me in a way that nothing electrical
| ever will. And I'm a great fan of renewable energy, and
| realize that the pollution that has been created (and is
| still being created) is absolutely unsustainable.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| There are people working on internal combustion engines
| with a very similar design currently, for many applications
| (military, trucking, etc) diesel or diesel electric is the
| only realistic option for the foreseeable future:
| https://achatespower.com/
| whycome wrote:
| > The Napier Deltic engine is a British opposed-piston
| valveless, supercharged uniflow scavenged, two-stroke diesel
| engine
|
| Any tech that includes the word "scavenged" must be cool and
| efficient
| mrlonglong wrote:
| They're unique. Originally designed to power fast torpedo boats
| during WW2, three of these powerful and compact engines would
| churn out plenty of power for the boat up to 50 kt.
|
| https://everythingaboutboats.org/napier-deltic/
| mrlonglong wrote:
| They're still in use by our UK navy. Nine minesweepers still
| on active duty.
| mrlonglong wrote:
| I just realised they re-engined them with cat engines in
| 2008. Pity.
| noir_lord wrote:
| Napier was on the cutting edge of certain kinds of IC engines
| for a long time.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Sabre (1938).
|
| Powered the absolute _monster_ that was the Tempest (up to the
| Mk 2 - they did have reliability issues they never quite solved
| but 3000+HP out of an engine that weighs barely more than a
| tonne dry will do that)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Tempest
|
| Was happy to see the name re-used for our upcoming fighter.
|
| We also called the Eurofighter the Typhoon and the (WW2)
| Typhoon (also a Sabre engine) was the predecessor of the
| Tempest - it started as a re-wing of the Typhoon but enough
| changes where made to give it a new name.
|
| Just a devastating superprop in its day.
| hydrogen7800 wrote:
| Piston engines got pretty wild before turbines eventually took
| over the world. The most efficient ones were more efficient
| than today's turbines in terms of BSFC[0]. One of the most
| interesting to me was the Napier Nomad[1], which used turbo-
| and super-charging. However, the turbo had secondary fuel
| injection and effectively ran as a turbine to drive the
| compressor.
|
| [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-
| specific_fuel_consumptio...
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Nomad
| jabl wrote:
| Napier Nomad is one of my favorite engine designs. More info
| at https://oldmachinepress.com/2019/08/05/napier-nomad-
| compound...
| mtmail wrote:
| How do you extinguish an oil-well fire? Enter the "Big Wind" with
| two jet engines on a tank chassis. "The water is moving at a
| maximum rate of 220 gallons of water a second,"
| https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15138374/stilling-the...
| hakoda wrote:
| You could also nuke it;
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtabulak_gas_field
| dewey wrote:
| Tangentially related and recommended. Werner Herzog's film that
| also features longer sections on the fire fighting efforts on
| the oil fields.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lessons_of_Darkness
| nchmy wrote:
| Someone just recommended this to me the other day!
|
| I must also recommend the recently-deceased legend Sebastiao
| Salgado's photos from Kuwait oil fires.
|
| https://publicdelivery.org/sebastiao-salgado-kuwait/
| slybot wrote:
| https://m.imdb.com/title/tt3674140/
|
| I watched this movie on cinema a decade ago. Highly
| recommended.
| echelon_musk wrote:
| For lighter viewing there is Sorcerer (1977) [0] with Roy
| Scheider.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer_(film)
| mtmail wrote:
| Video is hosted on archive.org
| https://archive.org/details/lessons-of-darkness-1992
| tonetegeatinst wrote:
| I have a question for folks who handle pumps regularly. Almost
| all pumps are made for water, or sewage. How do you identify if a
| pump is rated to handle liquid metal or hot fluids (heated
| chemicals, or contents under extreme pressure)
|
| I have never heard of a standard class of pumps for this....other
| than basically finding a manufacturer who specialized in these
| sort of pumps.
| korse wrote:
| You're thinking of temperature and viscosity parameters.
|
| Read the data sheets and look for those terms, or look for
| manufacturers of pumps that maximize both.
| estimator7292 wrote:
| Those are pretty extreme applications that require extremely
| specific pumps. You are very firmly in the "call for pricing"
| territory
| mindcrime wrote:
| That's a bit outside my wheelhouse, but in regards to
| firefighting specifically there is another such distinction
| that comes up, and that is in regards to pumps that are
| designed to regularly pump seawater, versus pumps that
| primarily pump freshwater. The difference is mainly in the
| materials used for building the pump, and relate to the
| corrosive effects of seawater. You _can_ pump seawater with a
| "normal" fire pump, but if you do it's imperative to flush the
| pump (and other hose and appliances) thoroughly with freshwater
| as soon as possible to avoid damage. The seawater rated pumps,
| on the other hand, can handle seawater all the time. As you can
| probably guess, the primary application of seawater rated pumps
| is for fireboats or onboard firefighting on other sorts of
| ships.
| jedberg wrote:
| My dad worked on the Space Shuttle main engine program in the
| 80s. One of the things they built was the turbopump [0], which
| generated 23,000HP (and could drain your average home swimming
| pool in one minute).
|
| Seeing the test firings of the pump was pretty amazing, draining
| one "swimming pool" and filling another in a minute.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-25#Turbopumps
| interroboink wrote:
| To say nothing of the launchpad sound suppression water
| system[1] that dumps 7,300 gal/sec (about 2-3 seconds for one
| swimming pool)!
|
| Though that's just gravity-fed, of course. Still pretty cool
| though, I think (:
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_suppression_system
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| The article uses various measures, so here's a quick table:
| Baikonur Cosmodrome: 4,800 gal/s (peak) Space Shuttle
| Launch Complex 39: 7,317 gal/s (net) Wallops: 4,000
| gal/s (?) SLS: 18,333 gal/s (peak) Mack
| Super Pumper (this article): 146 gal/s (net)
| Replacement new Super Pumper 1: 87.5 gal/s (net)
| citizenkeen wrote:
| Something the article doesn't mention is why this was phased out.
| Was it replaced with something similar?
| plasticsoprano wrote:
| Better building fire suppression systems. Not to mention
| improvements to flame retardant materials.
| mindcrime wrote:
| FDNY reintroduced the "Super Pumper" concept in a somewhat
| different form a few years ago.
|
| See:
|
| https://www.firefighternation.com/lifestyle/new-fdny-super-p...
| dublinben wrote:
| Some interesting history here:
| https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-history/articles/th...
| michaelt wrote:
| The article says the "super pumper" could supply 8,800 gallons
| per minute, and it came with three "satellite trucks [...] not
| burdened with a pump of their own"
|
| Your basic modern fire pump unit can pump 2,200 gallons per
| minute (if you can find a water source that'll give you that
| much) and it'd typically have a crew of 4-5 firefighters on
| board.
|
| So you'd probably replace it with 4 regular fire trucks? Then
| you've got just as much pump capacity, plus you've got the
| flexibility to send the trucks to different places.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| There was a fire station we used to walk past when my little boy
| was about 2 years old. Often the fire trucks were out the front
| being cleaned. The fire fighters always let him sit in the cabin.
| Heaven for 2 year olds obsessed with trucks.
| xnx wrote:
| 2400 hp sounds like a lot, but a Model X Plaid is 1020 hp. I
| assume it couldn't output 1020 hp for as long though.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| This thing feels like a mortal danger to the (up to 8x!) iron
| pipes / hydrants it's pulling from, that it'd want to just chew
| up the very pipes themselves! Or to the building it's hurling 37
| tons of water a minute at! I don't understand how a connector
| hose wouldn't collapse, how it maintains any cross-section rather
| than being sucked into collapse.
|
| Also wondering: what replaced this!
|
| (Ed: great reply from Mindcrime. Also, the new Ferrara Super
| Pumper shows a very impressive ribbed(?) 8-inch "hard suction"
| hose! There's a whole wikipedia section for these drafting/vacuum
| hoses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction_hose)
| amluto wrote:
| I imagine the hydrants were operated at positive pressure.
| Water mains are generally somewhere between 40 and maybe 120
| psi gauge. You don't gain a whole lot by sucking on them - at
| most you get to -14 psi, and you do not want to boil the water
| (aka cause cavitation) in your pump.
| mindcrime wrote:
| _This thing feels like a mortal danger to the (up to 8x!) iron
| pipes / hydrants it's pulling from,_
|
| When pumping a fire engine supplied by a hydrant (or any other
| pressurized source, as opposed to drafting from a static water
| source like a pond or lake) there's an idea of "residual
| pressure" which is monitored by a gauge on the pump panel. The
| engineer is responsible for making sure the residual pressure
| doesn't drop below the level where damage would occur to the
| water system, supply hose, or the pump itself. It's been a few
| years, but I think most departments spec somewhere around 20psi
| as the minimum residual pressure they allow.
|
| _Also wondering: what replaced this!_
|
| The Super Pumper[1], of course! :-)
|
| The new one isn't quite as extreme, not tractor drawn and no
| separate engine. This is more of a traditional fire engine
| style platform, but the specs are still pretty impressive.
|
| [1]: https://www.firefighternation.com/lifestyle/new-fdny-
| super-p...
| topspin wrote:
| > Also wondering: what replaced this!
|
| A collection of smaller pumps and monitors, which is likely a
| better scheme, in terms of flexibility and fault tolerance.
| While a remarkable design, the single pump with long hoses to
| multiple hydrants, then radiating to multiple monitors, is a
| system that takes great coordination and precious time to
| deploy and rework in action.
|
| The Napier Deltic engine is the party piece in all this. It is
| an ambitious and yet successful design, intended to push the
| limit of power-to-weight in a diesel engine. I investigated the
| state of current diesel locomotive engines in comparison to the
| Deltic and it remains, _to this day_ , the highest power-to-
| weight diesel engine in use for locomotives. (There are half a
| dozen still running in the UK today in limited service.) I've
| personally visited the Bay City museum to see this engine.
|
| These engines require forced induction; they cannot run
| naturally aspirated. In its various naval, rail and other
| applications there were many different induction designs
| applied to the Deltic: turbos, superchargers and combinations
| of both. Today, we have _electric_ forced induction, enabled by
| the high performance electric motors that have emerged
| elsewhere in transport applications. One thinks of what diesel
| wonders might be created by combining the Deltic design with
| electric forced induction.
| jabl wrote:
| I believe most contemporary marine two stroke diesels use
| electrical blowers for scavenging at low speeds. At higher
| speed the turbocharger spins up and takes over, and the
| electric blowers are shut down.
| kazinator wrote:
| That https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic is pretty
| interesting.
|
| You would initially think that the ignition events would be
| evenly spaced, but that's not the case. For every delta triplet,
| the ignitions come rapidly one after another, close together in
| the cycle.
|
| In that second animation on the page, showing the firing order
| among 6 delta piston assemblies, if you keep your eyes fixated on
| any of the six columns, you can see the three firing events.
| Always C, B, A order.
| jabl wrote:
| In case someone is interested in the engine powering this thing,
| a good writeup at https://oldmachinepress.com/2019/09/05/napier-
| deltic-opposed...
| mindcrime wrote:
| And while we're talking about highly specialized firefighting
| apparatus... while I don't think Chicago FD ever ran anything
| quite like the FDNY Mack Super Pumper, they are well known for
| their use of a piece of apparatus known as a "turret wagon".
| Basically, it's a big-ass truck with a huge deluge gun (aka
| "monitor" or "turret") mounted on the back, and with a big intake
| manifold for receiving multiple supply lines. You could think of
| a "turret wagon" as being conceptually akin to the "Satellite"
| units that were part of the FDNY Super Pumper System.
|
| Anyway, one of the best known Chicago Turret Wagons was "Big
| John" (aka 6-7-3).
|
| https://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2013/04/chicago-fd-turret-w...
|
| https://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2013/04/chicago-fd-turret-w...
|
| Not sure if CFD still maintain any Turret Wagons in contemporary
| times or not, but variations on the concept are still found,
| particularly in industrial fire departments that protect high
| hazard sites like oil refineries, certain chemical plants, etc.
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