[HN Gopher] Data centers contribute to high prices as energy bil...
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Data centers contribute to high prices as energy bills electrify
local politics
Author : moose_man
Score : 81 points
Date : 2025-11-01 16:16 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| l1n wrote:
| hm, I think this contradicts the results from
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S104061902...
| cpitman wrote:
| Yeah, I was thinking of the same study. Looking at just the
| conversation on HN, lots of people are installing solar. Solar
| reduces the amount of energy used by that customer, but does
| not lower the cost of infrastructure to distribute power to
| that customer at all. And the cost of electricity is dominated
| by distribution and transmission, not generation. With an
| increased share of costs going to overhead infrastructure, the
| cost per watt goes up. Higher consumption increases the share
| of costs due to generation, and cost per watt goes down.
|
| "Contrary to these concerns, our analysis finds that state-
| level load growth in recent years (through 2024) has tended to
| reduce average retail electricity prices. Fig. 5 depicts this
| relationship for 2019-2024: states with the highest load growth
| experienced reductions in real prices, whereas states with
| contracting loads generally saw prices rise."
| thechao wrote:
| Which is why cheap batteries will be the camel that broke the
| straw's back. It's really hard to find numbers, but I like
| 20-30$/kwh by 2030. At those prices I can get a 4 day backup
| for an oversized (50kw) solar panel install for my house for
| 20k$. Why even hook up to the grid, at all?
| mhb wrote:
| > Why even hook up to the grid, at all?
|
| Day 5?
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Hook up to the grid for arbitrage, and make some more
| money.
| chrisBob wrote:
| My solar install is scheduled for December. Even if it ends up
| missing the cutoff for a tax break I still think it's the right
| thing to do. The combination of investing in green energy and
| locking in my effective electric rate is the smart move right
| now.
|
| ... and I heard on Friday that OpenAI is planning a data center
| 15 miles south of me. That can only make things worse.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Whats the time to make your money back with and without the tax
| break?
| dmoy wrote:
| I think GP's point isn't necessary "with vs without tax
| break", it's "with vs without giant future increase in
| electricity price"
| SteveGerencser wrote:
| We cancelled our install after TN removed the state level
| breaks. It pushed the payback out past the expected lifespan
| of the panels (25 years). I would have been fine with a 10
| year payback, but 25+ was just not worth doing.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| >> I would have been fine with a 10 year payback, but 25+
| was just not worth doing.
|
| We are struggling with this also -- with or without an
| incentive. The payback period is long. Makes sense if you
| think forward rates will be super-high. But people are
| quite aggressive with their forward rate estimates, _yet
| super-liberal with the lifespan estimates_.
|
| I've dealt with enough appliance breakdowns to know all the
| tricks companies pull
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty, but only on parts. The labor
| ends up costing more than an entire new system.
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty, but only on labor. The parts
| ends up costing more than an entire new system, possibly
| because the parts are no longer made. Labor warranty is now
| useless and you need to buy a new system all over.
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty on parts and labor, but the
| company declares bankruptcy and you have no warranty any
| longer.
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty on parts and labor, but the
| company got acquired and the acquiring company "cant find
| your warranty details in their system". Regulators are
| powerless to actually help despite months of letters.
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty on parts and labor, but a
| tree/hail falls on the house and they declare it out of
| bounds of warranty. You go through your home insurance, but
| they only cover current value, not replacement value. You
| buy a whole new system, only partially covered and start
| all over again.
|
| - You have a 25 year warranty on parts and labor, but
| manufacturer blames the malfunction on improper
| installation, but the installation company is long-
| gone/retired/non-responsive/bankrupt. Possibly the Accord
| insurance form is fake also (how many people actually
| verify the insurance Accord is real?)
|
| Been there, done that, on all the above. Eventually, your
| only religion is deferred maintenance because you know you
| get ripped off royally no matter what you do. We havent yet
| heard horror stories because these systems are new, but
| you'll hear all the above as time goes on, and people
| realize the actual life of their systems are far shorter
| than their payback periods.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Most good solar panels have a 12-15 year warranty on the
| panel, and a 25-30 year warranty on performance.
|
| But this is a warranty, and you have many panels. If
| they're all going to fail, they will fail sooner. If one
| fails or breaks eventually, even if it's not under
| warranty, replacing the panel is dirt cheap. Of course
| you need to replace it with an identical panel, so it
| makes more sense to buy extra panels and just assume some
| will die. But even if you paid for a replacement, that's
| already just $100-$200, and it'll probably be cheaper in
| the future.
|
| So the warranty isn't really that important long-term.
| They're more important for the short term, and a Tier 1
| solar provider's so reliable that you don't really need
| it anyway.
| trollbridge wrote:
| The cost to replace a panel is not "dirt cheap" and
| requires significant skill.
|
| I could say that "rebuilding a car engine is dirt cheap"
| assuming I can do it myself.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Yeah I just have absolutely zero interest in owning,
| being responsible for, and avoiding scammers in my own
| electrical power generation, with some vague hope of
| breaking even decades later. I'll gladly pay a utility
| for reliable power, regardless of wind and cloud
| conditions, where they are responsible for all the
| infrastructure upstream of my meter.
| trollbridge wrote:
| Right. I do a lot of self sufficient things (including
| some of my own power generation) but I lack the desire to
| become my own power utility end to end. It's already
| frustrating enough since I provide water and sewage to
| multiple households and electrical connection to the
| utility with solar and generator backup.
| malshe wrote:
| Is this because of the labor costs in the US? In other
| countries the payback period is much shorter. Someone I
| know in Brazil told me it is 3-5 years for them.
|
| On a related note, I asked my AC guy if he knows any
| trustworthy solar installers. He told me that only crooks
| are in that business :)
| sethhochberg wrote:
| In the US, there's often a large labor/materials upcharge
| on anything that can be branded as "green" - you see a
| lot of the same thing with higher end heat pump systems
| and such, too. Efficiency is (for whatever reasons)
| frequently sold as a luxury product feature in our market
| and the installers take advantage.
| mhb wrote:
| Or other countries could be paying more for electricity?
| edm0nd wrote:
| you'll basically never make it back iirc
|
| by the time you may even get close to paying it off, its time
| for a new one.
|
| really only worth if you just want to have solar and got a
| spare 5-6 figures to drop on it and wont miss that money.
|
| hopefully this changes in the near future and it will be way
| more affordable.
| testing22321 wrote:
| What planet are you on?
|
| I'm in Canada, in a tight valley that snows a lot.
|
| 7.8kw on the roof, even if I paid full price out of pocket
| it would be fully paid off in 13 years, and then I get
| $1000 a year of free power for another 20 or so years.
|
| Even at full price it's a total no brainer.
| casey2 wrote:
| You'd probably be cutting it close with the life of the panel
| (though maybe electricity price increase will save you) For
| CO2 I think it pays itself off fairly quick. It's probably
| the best investment you could make from a CO2 and local air
| quality perspective, maybe if your insulation is very bad or
| switching to a bike from a large personal car
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| I also am in the process of completing a solar install to get the
| tax breaks expiring this year. Depending on total cost (i'm
| DIYing and didn't predict all expenses) I can pay it off in 5-7
| years. My power bill is up 50% in one year, and has been
| increasing for years. With more datacenters taking up more power
| (which we pay for), the bill's only gonna increase.
|
| There is still time to complete a solar install yourself and get
| federal+state tax breaks. Call up your energy provider, get
| connected to their distributed generation department, and submit
| the forms/documentation/plans they require. Then you build your
| system, get it inspected, the utility approves it and completes
| the hookup. ChatGPT makes all this fairly easy. I can upload my
| forms and the process to GitHub if anyone wants to see the
| process for NY state.
|
| The simplest grid-tied system is solar panels + roof-mounting
| equipment + microinverters + a combiner box + a disconnect
| switch. This is enough to send solar power direct to the grid,
| assuming your microinverter supports the standards your power
| utility requires. You can do a PV+ESS (battery) system, but it's
| a ton more expensive (even assuming you DIY). It should be
| cheaper to do grid-tied projects, but many power utilities now
| mandate new standards for grid-tied devices that only the
| expensive inverters support.
|
| If you do off-grid (which I believe there's still some tax breaks
| for, depending), you can build a PV+ESS system much cheaper, as
| the off-grid equipment doesn't require the more expensive
| standards. We're talking $3.5k vs $9k for the same system.
|
| It would also be cheaper if we supported balcony solar the way
| Germany does. A big concern of mine is that poor people and
| people in apartments (~40% of Americans live in apartments) won't
| have the ability to supplement their bills with solar. If all the
| people with money and land/houses switch to solar, and the poor
| can't, the poor'll be propping up a big portion of the energy
| sector themselves, which is unsustainable.
| thelastgallon wrote:
| I thought there are almost no incentives for DIY. Any
| incentives usually come packaged with go through licensed
| contractors, who usually charge 10X more than DIY. This is what
| I've observed with most federal, state, city, utility
| incentives.
| seany wrote:
| The fed tax credit ones are just part of your normal filing
| with the IRS (5695). The state ones vary
| jasonsb wrote:
| This is not true. Energy prices are rising globally, even in
| countries with few or no data centers and declining industrial
| activity. It increasingly looks like a coordinated effort to
| extract as much revenue as possible from consumers before
| widespread adoption of solar power shifts the balance.
| bdangubic wrote:
| widespread adoption of solar is America is planned for 2097 or
| thereabouts so few years left of extraction of revenue :)
| jasonsb wrote:
| It looks like the current administration hates solar, but
| maybe things will change in a few years. California and Texas
| are among the world leaders, so there's still hope.
| kulahan wrote:
| He likes nuclear, at least. Mega bonus. Solar is pretty
| middling in comparison, so that's fine with me.
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| Well then what's _your_ mechanism for denial of the data
| center premise?
| antisthenes wrote:
| I wouldn't be so pessimistic. This oil-interest friendly
| administration won't last forever.
| loeg wrote:
| It is true, even if prices are rising in other places for other
| reasons.
| jasonsb wrote:
| Those other reasons being none other than pure greed.
|
| Total energy consumption has peaked in Europe in 2021 while
| prices go up like they're building a data center in every
| european country every 60 minutes.
| estimator7292 wrote:
| The AI/DC bubble is about pure greed. You're only about a
| third correct
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _other reasons being none other than pure greed_
|
| This is a good sign you're missing something. Particularly
| when talking about a global and diversified commodity like
| energy.
| anon7000 wrote:
| Every for-profit company operating under capitalism is
| essentially required to be greedy in order to be
| successful.
| hackable_sand wrote:
| That is broadly true, but we need more accuracy.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Every for-profit company operating under capitalism is
| essentially required to be greedy_
|
| Every company (currently) depends on atmospheric oxygen,
| that doesn't make O2 the cause of energy prices.
|
| Greed exists. It always has. Unless energy distributors
| have specifically become more greedy, recently and
| globally, falling back on "greed" exposes missing steps.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| It is true.
|
| > It increasingly looks like a coordinated effort to extract as
| much revenue as possible from consumers before widespread
| adoption of solar power shifts the balance.
|
| That statement isn't wrong, but increased power prices on
| consumers through socializing the costs of privatized benefit
| data centers is the mechanism for this. Data centers are a tax
| on consumers via their electric bills.
|
| Citations:
|
| Data Center Demand Fuels Surge in Electric Costs -
| https://www.thesandpaper.net/articles/data-center-demand-fue...
| - October 8th, 2025
|
| AI Data Centers Are Sending Power Bills Soaring -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-data-centers-elec...
| - September 29th, 2025
|
| How AI infrastructure is driving a sharp rise in electricity
| bills - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-ai-
| infrastructure-is-d... - September 5th, 2025
|
| Data centers will cause higher electricity prices, study finds
| - https://www.axios.com/local/raleigh/2025/08/28/data-
| centers-... - August 28th, 2025
|
| As electric bills rise, evidence mounts that data centers share
| blame. States feel pressure to act -
| https://apnews.com/article/electricity-prices-data-centers-a...
| - August 8th, 2025
|
| CMU: Data Center Growth Could Increase Electricity Bills 8%
| Nationally and as Much as 25% in Some Regional Markets -
| https://www.cmu.edu/work-that-matters/energy-innovation/data...
|
| https://www.datacenterwatch.org/report
|
| Energy prices are also flat in Europe, due to renewables
| pushing out volatile fossil fuels.
|
| _Ember Energy: European electricity prices and costs_ -
| https://ember-energy.org/data/european-electricity-prices-an...
| (updated daily)
|
| _Household electricity prices in 1st half of 2025: -0.5%_ -
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-eurostat-news/...
| - October 29th, 2025
|
| _Ember Energy: Decoupled: How Spain cut the link between gas
| and power prices using renewables_ - https://ember-
| energy.org/latest-insights/decoupled-how-spain... - October
| 2nd, 2025
| jasonsb wrote:
| > Household electricity prices in 1st half of 2025: -0.5% -
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-eurostat-
| news/... - October 29th, 2025
|
| This statement from the EU is not just irrelevant, it's
| deliberately misleading. Claiming a modest -0.5% change after
| a staggering 40% price surge, while oil and gas prices remain
| near 2019 levels and solar and wind capacity has grown
| tenfold, feels like a slap in the face to consumers. And yet,
| you're amplifying this technically true (but deeply
| deceptive) narrative because it conveniently props up a
| flawed argument.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| If consumers want cheaper power, they should advocate for
| more rapid deployment of wind, solar, battery storage,
| transmission and interconnectors, demand response, and
| other technologies to make the price of fossil fuels
| irrelevant in their electrical costs. Data centers are not
| a component of cheaper energy bills, importantly. They are
| demand, and compete with consumers for electricity in the
| market. Fossil fuel prices are volatile; if you do not want
| to be exposed to volatile fossil fuel pricing, do not use
| fossil fuels in your electrical grid. It is unlikely fossil
| fuels get cheaper in the future, as they will be starved
| for investment. You cannot control the global fossil fuel
| market (with the primary suppliers being OPEC+ and the US),
| but you can control your domestic supply and demand for
| energy. Europe fossil gas prices are never going to go back
| down to pre-2020 levels as long as they rely on LNG imports
| vs supply from Russia, for example. The faster Europe
| pushes out fossil generation in its grid, the faster energy
| prices go back down (cost of solar at a certain points
| during the day goes to 0 once enough solar has been
| deployed; eventually, the cost of generation becomes a much
| smaller component of electricity prices, as the dominate
| factors become distribution and infrastructure to get
| generation to loads).
|
| The above is crystal clear in the graphics in my citation
| above "Ember Energy: European electricity prices and
| costs."
|
| Additional citations:
|
| _EU expects to add record renewable capacity in 2025,
| industry sees headwinds_ -
| https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-
| regulat... - April 10th, 2025
|
| > EU countries are expected to add 89GW of new renewable
| energy capacity in 2025, including 70GW of solar and 19GW
| of wind, according to Commission projections shared with
| Reuters. The projections are based on industry data.
|
| The White House's Bet on Fossil Fuels Is Already Losing - h
| ttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-10-28/white-
| ... | https://archive.today/vpvch - October 28th, 2025
|
| > US financial markets are favoring renewable energy over
| fossil fuels, with global investment for new renewable
| energy development reaching a record $386 billion during
| the first half of 2025.
|
| > Revenue forecasts show a widening dichotomy between clean
| and dirty industries, with renewables expected to report
| 16% sales growth next year and 21% in 2027, while
| traditional energy companies report 1% and 6% sales growth.
|
| > Global renewable power is forecast to increase by 4,600
| gigawatts by the end of the decade, an amount equivalent to
| adding the generation capacity of China, the EU and Japan.
| (my note: _4 years_ to add 4.6TW of renewables globally)
|
| > Even as the US and European Union recently increased
| their reliance on coal, solar dethroned the fossil fuel
| mainstay last year, becoming the world's most installed
| energy generation technology according to BloombergNEF's
| 2025 Power Transition Trends report. "In 2015, solar power
| seemed far from overtaking coal, constrained both by scale
| and economics," BloombergNEF said in report this month.
| Yet, within a decade, solar costs have fallen so
| dramatically that the dynamic has entirely reversed. Solar
| is now two times cheaper than the fossil fuel." So-called
| green energy is the lowest-cost and quickest-to-deploy
| power generator in the US, even without incentives,
| according to Lazard Inc.
|
| _Lazard's Levelized Cost of Energy+ (LCOE+)_ -
| https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/levelized-cost-
| of-e... - June 2025
|
| (enough sunlight falls on the Earth in 30 minutes to power
| humanity for a year, and we're fighting over ancient
| sunlight pumped from the ground; why? we already solved
| fusion, just at a distance using the sun and batteries; 1GW
| of solar is installed globally every 15 hours as of this
| comment)
| smcin wrote:
| What's a short explanation of the discrepancy in EU
| wholesale vs household electricity price changes, over the
| period 2019-2025?
|
| Wholesale increased 30% YoY 2025 over 2024 but household
| didn't.
|
| Realistically we should compare to 2019 (pre-Covid, pre-
| inflation, pre-Ukraine war).
|
| Many individual EU govts implemented retail caps, (sales)
| tax cuts, and transfers. Where is this summarized at-a-
| glance, by country, by year? Anything better than:
|
| eurostat: "Electricity price statistics"
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
| explained/index.php...
|
| "Winners and losers from the energy crisis: Policy lessons
| from the Iberian electricity market" - Fabra, Leblanc,
| Souza (2025) https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/winners-and-
| losers-energy-cri...
| phil21 wrote:
| Do any of these links actually show the exact method that
| datacenters are "socializing the costs" for energy
| production? They tend to pay industrial rates like any other
| industrial consumer would, and pay for their local
| interconnect to the grid. Why they should be on the hook for
| long distance transmission/etc. is unclear to me given that
| every user on the grid takes part of that and has enjoyed
| under-replacement electrical rates for decades. I have seen
| the typical local tax abatement deals which I totally agree
| need to be outright banned - but that's really the only thing
| that's jumped out at me. Otherwise it's largely opinion
| pieces parroting the same few background sources.
|
| I'm not sure it's really a correct mental model to put 50+
| years of lack of investment maintaining and expanding
| transmission and grid capacity onto the industry that laid
| that fact bare. From where I stand and the underlying
| studies/reports I've personally read the root cause always
| seems to be we're running out of power on a grid built by the
| Greatest Generation and more or less zero work has been put
| into expanding anything since. There were plenty of people
| sounding alarm bells a decade ago before the latest
| datacenter boom.
|
| Then you get into NIMBY stuff, pie in the sky wishful
| thinking re: dispatchable vs. intermittent power generation,
| etc.
|
| In the end if we want wealth, we need industry. Industry
| needs cheap and abundant power to be competitive - AI
| datacenter or Aluminum smelter. Energy consumption correlates
| very strongly with wealth, and we've spent decades in the
| margins messing around with efficiency gains vs. actually
| investing in anything substantial. When your power company is
| willing to give you a credit for a more efficient appliance
| so they don't have to upgrade the grid to your neighborhood
| you know things have jumped the shark and we are in
| malinvestment territory.
|
| I certainly agree with the argument that the datacenters
| might not end up panning out as profitable investments for
| society, but I'm at least hopeful that when the dust settles
| we'll actually have augmented our electric grid and finally
| started to take that looming problem seriously. We might be
| left with something useful that lasts another 3 generations
| when all said and done.
|
| We were going to get here either way with population growth
| and older power generation facilities not being replaced
| faster than they are reaching end of life. Datacenters simply
| brought it forward maybe a decade or so. Eventually you run
| out of the previous generation's energy investments.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| > In the end if we want wealth, we need industry. Industry
| needs cheap and abundant power to be competitive - AI
| datacenter or Aluminum smelter.
|
| Why do we want wealth when it is only going to the
| wealthiest? AI data centers benefit Big Tech, its
| employees, and its shareholders. So, who is "we"? I believe
| I can make the argument that the majority of Americans do
| not want this, only a privileged minority (ie those getting
| wealthy from this current hype cycle).
|
| _Poll: American voters don 't want data centers built in
| their communities_ - https://www.thecentersquare.com/issues
| /energy/article_d5b564... - July 2nd, 2025
|
| > Energy consumption correlates very strongly with wealth,
| and we've spent decades in the margins messing around with
| efficiency gains vs. actually investing in anything
| substantial. When your power company is willing to give you
| a credit for a more efficient appliance so they don't have
| to upgrade the grid to your neighborhood you know things
| have jumped the shark and we are in malinvestment
| territory.
|
| No longer true.
|
| https://ourworldindata.org/energy-gdp-decoupling
|
| If AI data centers want power, they should be charged a
| painful premium for it, paid out of the pockets of Big Tech
| building it. They have the resources, clearly, from the
| very obvious capital flows. Meta has issued its largest
| bond offering ever, $30B, for its Hyperion project in
| Richland Parish, Louisiana. Because when the bubble pops,
| we're all going to be left holding the bag ("socializing
| the losses"). We should not all have to suffer higher
| electrical prices for the benefit of Big Tech and their
| shareholders. They can pay up for the necessary power
| infrastructure if they want the gains they're chasing.
| foobarian wrote:
| > They tend to pay industrial rates like any other
| industrial consumer would
|
| Well yeah, you don't need to look further than Econ 101 and
| supply and demand. If demand goes up, prices go up.
|
| The real problem is that the gains from the new demand
| don't end up fairly distributed, which is bad but not
| really directly related to the discussion.
| phil21 wrote:
| And then supply goes up. In theory.
|
| Americans have coasted too long on other people's
| infrastructure investment. It's basically run out. Time
| to pay the piper or watch our quality of life decline.
|
| I firmly believe datacenters are simply the scapegoat de-
| jour. If this buildout hadn't happened it'd still be EVs
| or "air conditioning use in the city" like it was
| beforehand.
|
| It's coming for us either way. At least this way there is
| an industrial user subsidizing a portion of grid
| modernization and energy generation tech.
|
| I agree that wealth distribution is a problem. But I come
| from a "there needs to be wealth to distribute to begin
| with" standpoint. Degrowth isn't the way.
| gruez wrote:
| https://www.economist.com/content-
| assets/images/20251101_USC...
|
| >The Economist has adapted a model of state-level retail
| electricity prices from the Lawrence Berkeley National
| Laboratory to include data centres (see chart 2). We find no
| association between the increase in bills from 2019 to 2024
| and data-centre additions. The state with the most new data
| centres, Virginia, saw bills rise by less than the model
| projected. The same went for Georgia. In fact, the model
| found that higher growth in electricity demand came alongside
| lower bills, reflecting the fact that a larger load lets a
| grid spread its fixed costs across more bill-payers.
|
| https://www.economist.com/united-states/2025/10/30/the-
| data-...
| idiotsecant wrote:
| This is inaccurate. In places with cheap fuel and steady load
| the prices for power are rising no faster than inflation. In
| places where fuel costs are increasing or tech companies are
| forcing us to subsidize their moon race to nothing the prices
| are increasing.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Energy prices have risen roughly at the rate of CPI since 2022,
| perhaps we got used to the relatively flat prices for the
| previous decade:
|
| https://www.apolloacademy.com/electricity-prices-have-grown-...
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| It is good the electricity demand is going up, because this will
| help us electrify things.
| twoodfin wrote:
| I am not an expert in electricity generation or transmission, but
| it does seem strange that this "data center scare" is happening
| coincidental with (other?) big jumps in home electricity rates
| that have nothing to do with data centers.
|
| For example, Massachusetts rates are way up because New England
| politicians have spent more than a decade fighting natural gas
| infrastructure, especially pipelines that would bring cheap North
| American gas vs. LNG that is in short supply post-Russia/Ukraine
| war.
|
| At the same time, MA politicians created the "Mass Save" program
| that's effectively a giant boondoggle where utility ratepayers
| are subsidizing fly-by-night "energy efficiency" contractors who
| have no incentive to be efficient at all.
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