[HN Gopher] Microsoft in court for allegedly misleading Australi...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Microsoft in court for allegedly misleading Australians over 365
       subscriptions
        
       Author : edwinjm
       Score  : 224 points
       Date   : 2025-10-27 14:54 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.accc.gov.au)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.accc.gov.au)
        
       | misswaterfairy wrote:
       | Awesome that the ACCC, Australia's consumer watchdog, is taking
       | this up.
       | 
       | It's really shitty that companies believe they can pull these
       | stunts and get away with it.
        
         | lysp wrote:
         | The ACCC is actually quite switched on to any misleading
         | conduct.
         | 
         | They have gone after Airbnb / Airlines / Hotel Booking /
         | Concert Tickets - for misleading conduct.
         | 
         | Especially business that use drip pricing (adding compulsory
         | hidden fees later) or misleading prices like in the Microsoft
         | case.
         | 
         | Anything sneaky - they're normally right on to it.
        
           | yen223 wrote:
           | I recently learned this, but the reason Steam offers 2-hour
           | no-questions-asked full refunds was partially because of a
           | lawsuit by the ACCC
        
       | Qem wrote:
       | > "Following a detailed investigation, the ACCC alleges that
       | Microsoft deliberately hit this third option, to retain the old
       | plan at the old price, in order to increase the uptake of Copilot
       | and the increased revenue from the Copilot integrated plans,"
       | ACCC chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb said.
       | 
       | The product is so good that they need to scam people into buying
       | it.
        
       | xaxaxb wrote:
       | Use LibreOffice on Windows. Microsoft Office used to come bundled
       | with Windows, as an office suite. Now it's a subscription
       | product. This is a bad decision; shows how Microsoft can't keep
       | it up together. Even if it had been one-time purchase with LTS
       | updates and everything, just like it used to, one could possible
       | think of buying it. But, $100/year for personal use?? What's so
       | great about MS Office that LibreOffice can't do?? Get
       | LibreOffice, even if you use Windows.
        
         | general1465 wrote:
         | Excel
        
           | xaxaxb wrote:
           | At consumer-level, I believe LibreCalc should be enough. But
           | yes, if you're in an org doing Excel-fu, you'd already get
           | licensed access.
        
         | TiredOfLife wrote:
         | > Microsoft Office used to come bundled with Windows, as an
         | office suite.
         | 
         | Never was. You probably got it installed by friendly it guy or
         | the store was just installing pirated versions.
         | 
         | > Now it's a subscription product.
         | 
         | There is also pay once version. https://www.microsoft.com/en-
         | us/microsoft-365/p/office-home-...
         | 
         | > But, $100/year for personal use??
         | 
         | The subscription comes with 1TB of OneDrive storage. Look up
         | how much 1TB of storage costs usually
         | 
         | > What's so great about MS Office that LibreOffice can't do??
         | 
         | Work with spreadsheets more complicated than two cells.
        
           | lelanthran wrote:
           | >> What's so great about MS Office that LibreOffice can't
           | do??
           | 
           | > Work with spreadsheets more complicated than two cells.
           | 
           | I use both daily. You're misrepresenting what LibreOffice can
           | do; 99% of the people I see using excel are using the exact
           | same 20% of its capabilities.
           | 
           | Quick-n-Dirty database that they can update during sales
           | meetings and create charts from. You think another
           | spreadsheet can't do that?
        
       | zerosizedweasle wrote:
       | I feel like tech companies are sparing no shenanigans to be able
       | to say people are paying for AI. Shouldn't it sell itself if it
       | is as world changing (in it's current form) as people claim?
        
         | noir_lord wrote:
         | Shhh - We aren't supposed to point out that the 4 Emperors of
         | the Apocalypse are naked.
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | https://www.perspectives.plus/p/microsoft-365-copilot-commer...
         | 
         | Even after putting their thumb on the scale, the numbers are
         | still dismal. Not even a 2% conversion rate.
        
           | mrweasel wrote:
           | At what point does someone in management step in and kill of
           | the product? 2% should be a pretty clear sign that the
           | product is either price entirely wrong, or just not something
           | that anyone wants to buy.
           | 
           | Are Microsoft just in to deep at this point? They killed one
           | off their flagship brands (Office) in favour of Microsoft 365
           | Copilot, shouldn't someone be fired for that decision at this
           | point?
           | 
           | I'm looking forward to the books and articles in 10 - 20
           | years time, attempting to explain what happened internally at
           | Microsoft these past years.
        
             | estimator7292 wrote:
             | The cost is already sunk and the only alternative to
             | forcibly extracting any profit is to admit they got
             | suckered into the hype and burned billions of dollars for
             | nothing
        
               | KvanteKat wrote:
               | Sure, but the alternative is not really any better: if
               | the choice is between being the guy who got it wrong vs.
               | being the guy who got it wrong _and_ being the guy who
               | persisted in throwing good money after bad, surely the
               | former is prefereable. As far as I see, the fact that
               | they keep going indicates that they genuinely still
               | believe Copilot could pan out and become profittable in
               | the long run.
        
             | ulfw wrote:
             | I don't even know what Microsoft 365 Copilot means. What
             | idiotic branding. 365 means subscription I believe (you pay
             | 365 days of the year). But Copilot? Huh? That's just a
             | feature
        
               | input_sh wrote:
               | Wait until you hear about Microsoft 365 Copilot Chat,
               | which is actually a stripped down version of Microsoft
               | 365 Copilot!
               | 
               | So, if you're a Microsoft 365 Business user, you now get
               | "Microsoft 365 Copilot Chat" for free, which is just a
               | standard web interface for interacting with Copilot (not
               | to be confused with GitHub's Copilot, which is _also_
               | owned by Microsoft, but I digress).
               | 
               |  _But_ , if you pay for an upgrade from M365 Copilot Chat
               | to M365 Copilot-without-the-chat, then you also get an AI
               | button in Microsoft 365 apps (Outlook, Teams, Word...)!
               | 
               | Realistically this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that
               | ever owned or at least considered purchasing an Xbox, or
               | even worse ever had to interact with Azure.
        
             | lelanthran wrote:
             | > Are Microsoft just in to deep at this point?
             | 
             | Investment-wise, none of the large companies invested in AI
             | can afford the bubble to pop.
             | 
             | They're just going to ride the tiger out.
        
           | this_steve_j wrote:
           | The marketing has 100% shifted to the creation of workloads
           | using "Agents".
           | 
           | Presumably the hyperscalers can begin conflating the number
           | of "agents" created with "boring jobs eliminated" and thus
           | herald the industrial revolution.
           | 
           | But first: Your subscription price is increasing and now
           | includes 5 Agents.
        
         | tencentshill wrote:
         | Rebranding Office as Copilot was an easy, sleazy way to gain
         | millions of locked-in paid subscribers.
        
         | devsda wrote:
         | I don't know how it was during the dot-com bubble, but the
         | current AI hype is the biggest "Fake it till you make it"
         | operation I've ever seen.
         | 
         | My only worry is about the huge impact on rank and file
         | employees when they issue the "we are re-aligning our strategic
         | direction/priorities and we are focusing on effective resource
         | utilization" pr statement.
        
         | jdgoesmarching wrote:
         | Atlassian yanked core Jira Service Manager features into their
         | premium plan which, you guessed it, includes AI.
         | 
         | For our company of >30 people this amounted to a ~$7k/mo
         | increase.
        
       | mikebonnell wrote:
       | Pretty sure Microsoft is going to try and get a settlement. The
       | evidence is very clear.
        
       | akulbe wrote:
       | Google is doing exactly the same thing. Our monthly rates for
       | Workspace went up because of the AI crap we didn't ask for.
        
         | lotsofpulp wrote:
         | The price went up because the seller was willing to bet enough
         | people would keep paying it to more than offset the people who
         | stop paying it. The addition of a feature no one wants is just
         | marketing to make buyers feel better about having less money.
        
           | trashb wrote:
           | I feel like a lot of people don't internalize this.
           | 
           | The features don't matter as long as people put up the price
           | for what they require. The job of the salesman/marketing team
           | is to bet on a balance that will net the company money. The
           | features are just the sales pitch that convince you you need
           | the latest and greatest (comparable to a sports car salesman
           | selling you the new v8 model instead of the more economical
           | v6).
        
       | jeppester wrote:
       | It should not be normal that companies are trying to fool their
       | customers. I may be wrong, but I feel that dark patterns have
       | gotten worse and have become quite normalised.
       | 
       | I'm well aware that companies are not your friends, and they are
       | only in it to earn as much money as possible etc. But in the
       | ideal world it should never be a consideration to willingly
       | deceive your customers. Then something is wrong that needs
       | fixing.
        
         | zerosizedweasle wrote:
         | If your product is this bad and no one wants to buy it
         | normally, maybe you should build a new product.
        
           | estimator7292 wrote:
           | But it's so much more profitable for shareholders to force
           | users to engage with the shitty product
        
             | givemeethekeys wrote:
             | It's much cheaper for execs to buy bundled "it can do
             | everything for less!" junk for the peasants.
             | 
             | That and, they're paying for Excel anyway...
        
               | cogman10 wrote:
               | Literally the exact reason we ended up with MS teams
               | instead of slack.
        
             | wat10000 wrote:
             | Even if you have a great product, you'll still get more
             | money out of people if you apply some dark patterns like
             | this. It's very hard for a company to resist that siren
             | call.
        
           | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
           | Making new products is very hard. Just look at the innovation
           | output of the tech giants. Compared to the resources they
           | have it's pretty pathetic. They are simply out of ideas.
        
         | alex1138 wrote:
         | There's no accountability either on a liability - legal, prison
         | - level or a personal duty to make sure you Do The Right Thing
         | (when, of course, you have a family to feed)
         | 
         | Behavior like what some of the tech giants do (and I don't
         | crusade against "big tech" but individual cases are ridiculous)
         | wouldn't be justified if you, like, wrote it down on a piece of
         | paper and showed it to them, but they get away with it because
         | you can just ignore all feedback, you don't have to actually
         | answer support tickets from a distance of potentially hundreds
         | of miles away (if you acted like that to my face, well, you
         | wouldn't dare)
         | 
         | Some are worse than others; some legitimately just do not care
         | how much evil they're pumping out into the world
         | (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1692122
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42651178)
        
         | tsunamifury wrote:
         | Uber, Airbnb and DoorDash are the primary dark pattern users in
         | the industry.
         | 
         | I am an executive design leader and all hires from these three
         | companies are screened in detail about their honesty level in
         | their designs due to how many issues I have with these
         | companies training their workers to lie.
         | 
         | If you work for them know that it's a black mark on your
         | record.
         | 
         | I have hired two from these companies who literally opened the
         | interview with "I want to leave X because they literally are
         | lying"
        
           | kenjackson wrote:
           | What are examples of their lies?
        
         | noir_lord wrote:
         | Welcome to 2025 - Cyberpunk without the cool aesthetics but
         | _all_ the downsides.
         | 
         | I realised the last time I was in a major city (I live in a
         | village) at night just how close we are, ebikes wizzing around
         | with youngish adults wearing corporate logos all over
         | themselves while using e-cigs, gangs of others waiting outside
         | each restaurant for a pickup.
         | 
         | Straight out the opening of Snowcrash but without the cool car.
         | 
         | We really did invent Torment Nexus from the classic cautionary
         | tale "Don't Create The Torment Nexus".
         | 
         | I love computers, I love programming (and have for 35 years), I
         | really really am coming to detest larger and larger parts of
         | the modern tech scene - consumer tech and the
         | Microsoft/Meta/Googles of the world.
        
           | Asmod4n wrote:
           | Thank luck we aren't in the Warhammer 40k universe yet.
        
             | noir_lord wrote:
             | If anything we'd be more likely to open a portal to hell
             | for Argent Energy.
             | 
             | `Meta today announced a strategic partnership with Union
             | Aerospace Corporation - the deal will give Meta access to
             | UAC's energy network powering the next revolution in AI.`
        
           | wat10000 wrote:
           | We thought computers were different. That freedom of
           | information would throw off the shackles of the old order and
           | usher in a new era of human flourishing.
           | 
           | Turns out computers weren't different at all, they just
           | hadn't caught the full attention of government and business
           | yet.
        
             | matheusmoreira wrote:
             | I think I became depressed because of this. I used to be so
             | enthusiastic about computers. We had the freedom to do
             | anything we wanted. Now they're locking everything down,
             | destroying everything the word "hacker" ever stood for. I'm
             | watching it happen in real time. It's heart breaking.
             | 
             | Computers are world changing technology. They are so
             | powerful they could defeat police, judges, governments,
             | militaries. Left unchecked, they could wipe out entire
             | segments of the global economy. They could literally
             | reshape the world. The powers that be cannot tolerate it.
        
             | tremon wrote:
             | Computers _are_ different, because of zero-cost copying. It
             | 's much easier to achieve a digital monopoly than with
             | physical-world products. That should also mean that
             | antitrust enforcement should be _stronger_ on software
             | companies, and the scope of enforcement should be broader.
        
           | Yeul wrote:
           | The things companies can get away with in America is insane.
           | Amazon really feels like Weyland-Yutani.
        
             | noir_lord wrote:
             | I'm not in the US so I suspect some of it is slightly
             | blunted by generally stronger worker protections but Amazon
             | has had multiple issues here as well and we still have the
             | "gig economy" stuff just the same.
             | 
             | It's not a good direction things are trending.
        
           | matheusmoreira wrote:
           | So when is Johnny Silverhand gonna show up? He's over two
           | years late by now...
        
             | natebc wrote:
             | The other Cyberpunk. Not that it's any better but we for
             | sure won't have Judy there to save our asses.
        
         | thewebguyd wrote:
         | You can thank Friedman for that with the whole "The social
         | responsibility of business is to increase profits" mindset and
         | the Dodge vs. Ford court case that ruled Ford had to operate
         | his company in the interests of its shareholders above all
         | else.
         | 
         | We need to end shareholder primacy and have stronger antitrust
         | enforcement.
        
           | itopaloglu83 wrote:
           | Leaving the markets uncontrolled is the problem. Fine the
           | hell of them for acting anti-consumer and they will quickly
           | align themselves with the realities.
        
             | ares623 wrote:
             | Or just lobby harder tbh
        
             | plorg wrote:
             | Better yet, pursue structural remedies. Break up or shut
             | down bad actors.
        
           | themafia wrote:
           | Friedman told people what they wanted to hear.
           | 
           | Unsurprisingly Friedman was lauded and rewarded for this
           | behavior.
        
           | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
           | The interests of the shareholders doesn't mean extract all
           | profit immediately.
        
           | AnthonyMouse wrote:
           | > the Dodge vs. Ford court case that ruled Ford had to
           | operate his company in the interests of its shareholders
           | above all else.
           | 
           | That case is from _1919_ and it doesn 't say what most people
           | think it says.
           | 
           | The problem there was that Ford was trying to claim he could
           | do whatever he wants because he has the most votes, minority
           | shareholders be damned. In practice what companies do now is
           | that they do whatever they want and come up with some
           | explanation for why it's in the interest of the shareholders,
           | e.g. charitable donations are tax deductions and strengthen
           | the company's brand with customers, instead of explicitly
           | telling the other shareholders to eat sand.
           | 
           | The real problem with modern companies is diffuse ownership.
           | You invest your retirement money in some fund, the fund is
           | the thing that actually elects the board and what the fund
           | wants is to increase profits, and typically short-term
           | profits at that, so they elect a board to do it and that's
           | what happens. It's not because the law _requires_ them to do
           | that, it 's because that's the result of that incentive
           | structure. And then all the companies that you own as a
           | shareholder are out there screwing you over by double when
           | you're their customer.
           | 
           | Whereas if you have a company owned and operated by the same
           | people, then they can say "hey wait a minute, this is only
           | going to increase short-term profits by a small amount and
           | it's going to make everyone hate us, maybe we shouldn't do
           | it?" Which is the thing that's missing from large publicly-
           | traded companies.
           | 
           | > stronger antitrust enforcement
           | 
           | This is the other thing that's missing. Even if companies are
           | trying to screw you, if they have a lot of competition then
           | they can't, because you'd just switch to one that isn't. But
           | now try that in a market where there are only two incumbents
           | and they're both content to pick your pocket as long as the
           | other one is doing the same.
        
         | giancarlostoro wrote:
         | I call it Marketing Driven development. Its also responsible
         | for a drop in higher quality software as business people have
         | to justify their jobs and push developers off maintenance
         | tickets that are "low priority" items but still impact enough
         | customers that it should be embarrassing.
        
         | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
         | There aren't enough opportunities to make the profits they need
         | to keep the stock price up in an ethical manner. So they have
         | to use dark patterns. It will keep getting worse with these
         | trillion dollar behemoths having to maintain their growth
         | rates. Ads everywhere. AI will become more and more of a tool
         | for manipulation.
        
         | themafia wrote:
         | > and have become quite normalised.
         | 
         | Enforcement agencies are asleep at the switch. Without any
         | pressure to constrain them then these major corporations will
         | stop at nothing.
         | 
         | > it should never be a consideration to willingly deceive your
         | customers.
         | 
         | They don't see it that way. They just see it as a new profit
         | stream that they're daring enough to capture.
        
       | jbombadil wrote:
       | Looks like Microsoft is taking a page out of the cable companies'
       | playbook. Next up, there will be "discounted" Copilot 365 or
       | whatever: a 2 year contract with the "promotional price" locked
       | in and a penalty fee for cancelling early.
        
       | tzs wrote:
       | They have switched people to the plan with Copilot in the US too.
       | I just checked and next renewal is set for the $99 plan with
       | Copilot instead of the $69 plan I had been on.
       | 
       | I remember some email from them saying the Copilot was now on my
       | plan, but I don't recall anything saying that this was actually a
       | different, more expansive plan, or that Copilot was just a trial
       | and the plan would switch until I took action, or anything like
       | that.
       | 
       | Here's how to get back to your old plan:
       | 
       | * find the Services & Subscriptions page on your account and
       | select Manage.
       | 
       | * click "Cancel Subscription".
       | 
       | * On the page that brings up there will be an option to switch to
       | a different plan. That should have the "Personal Classic" plan.
       | There's also "Family Classic" for people that want the family
       | plan without Copilot.
       | 
       | Another way that some have reported works is to simply turn off
       | recurring billing. That then sometimes triggers an offer to
       | switch plans that includes the Classic plans.
        
         | thehoff wrote:
         | Thanks, just did this on our family plan.
        
         | inquirerGeneral wrote:
         | They also added more to the 365 Family Manager family premium
         | plan though -- they ended Copilot Pro as that was an add-on
         | that made no sense when people already had to juggle the other
         | two copilots that are finally "settling in".
         | 
         | Good move there, at least.
         | 
         | > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nickdc_copilot-pro-is-no-
         | more...
         | 
         | > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nickdc_copilot-pro-is-no-
         | more...
        
         | EvanAnderson wrote:
         | Thank you. This workflow worked for my US account just fine,
         | though my account just said "Subscriptions" rather "Services &
         | Subscriptions".
         | 
         | My plan renewed back in May at the new rate. Microsoft did not
         | advertise that there was any way to remain with the "Classic"
         | plan. I've also never used the Copilot "features". I'd
         | absolutely sign-on to a class action suit to get some money
         | back. Even if it ends up just enriching the attorneys (which
         | class actions inevitably do) Microsoft needs as much
         | "correction" about this behavior as possible.
        
         | adrr wrote:
         | At least they are putting the linkedin product people to good
         | use.
        
         | bxparks wrote:
         | Yes, it was infuriating.
         | 
         | In addition to the Classic option that is shown only after
         | hitting "Cancel", they also had a secret "Microsoft 365 Basic"
         | option for $20/year. It includes no Office products, but
         | provides 100 GB of OneDrive. Which is all I needed. So
         | Microsoft is getting $20/year from me that they don't deserve.
         | 
         | Why do I pay them even $20/year? It's insurance against the
         | same kind of BS from Google. I back up my Google Drive to
         | OneDrive.
        
         | deepspace wrote:
         | I tried this and the only options I got were CAD 101 for the
         | family subscription with AI and CAD 109 for the Classic one
         | without AI ! ?
        
         | johnmw wrote:
         | Just another heads up - I switched to Family Classic and when
         | it renewed it dropped all access to my family members. I wasn't
         | aware it would do that and had a family member unable to use
         | their "full" email account until I had worked it out and was
         | able to re-link them.
        
       | nephrite wrote:
       | It is strange that MS added third option but lied that there was
       | not. They could just not include it, could they?
        
       | nashashmi wrote:
       | You can still do the same now. Go to cancellation and be offered
       | a package without AI.
        
         | Liquix wrote:
         | or cancel your subscription. you would not continue to
         | patronize a restaurant that intentionally put an extra charge
         | on your bill to make themselves more money. why continue to pay
         | M$ after they deliberately tried to trick you to squeeze out
         | more profit?
        
       | moi2388 wrote:
       | Huh, I just noticed I had also been switched. Nice, just switched
       | back. F*ck off with the AI bullshit already, Microsoft.
        
       | sandworm101 wrote:
       | Every bad day for Microsoft is another great day for Linux.
       | 
       | You have choices. Make them.
        
       | aquafox wrote:
       | I once bought an Office 2016 license and when I installed it this
       | year on a new laptop, it turned itself into a trimmed down O365.
       | After the first Office update, I got a non-closable ad next to my
       | Excel spreadsheet to upgrade to a full O365. Even more, I was
       | only able to save files to OneDrive and not locally. That was not
       | what I originally paid for!
        
         | Tepix wrote:
         | It's fraud. Plain and simple.
        
           | amlib wrote:
           | Software as a Service is fraud
        
         | paganel wrote:
         | > I was only able to save files to OneDrive and not locally.
         | 
         | I find this very infuriating, and I've stopped using MS for
         | more than 10 years now. They used to be a proper software
         | company, with their flows, of course, but quite professional in
         | the great scheme of things. But what you're describing goes
         | against everything that I've valued as a computer programmer
         | when I entered this field of work ~20 years ago.
        
       | stevesimmons wrote:
       | I am in the UK.
       | 
       | I got Microsoft's emails, did not want Microsoft's forced
       | imposition of Copilot in my Office subscription (regardless of
       | price), found the classic option mentioned in online forums, and
       | managed to switch to it just before my renewal.
       | 
       | My 89 year old aunt on the other hand got stung for the unwanted
       | forced upgrade. I had to call Microsoft, complained about them
       | unfairly exploiting vulnerable customers, and eventually got a
       | downgrade and the difference refunded.
       | 
       | What really annoys me about this - quite apart from the initial
       | deception/misrepresentation - is I now expect Microsoft to pull
       | similar tricks in future. A real disincentive to sign up to any
       | other 'value-added' services.
       | 
       | Why make subscriptions so full of traps that consumers end up
       | hating you? (Yes, I know, so some GM can hit this quarter's
       | bonus)
       | 
       | That reminds me, having just cancelled Spotify (due to their
       | price rise), Disney+ is next on the list. Maybe Netflix too.
        
       | sireat wrote:
       | This 30 Euro jump in Europe was a kick in the pants for me.
       | 
       | Even though it is still a relatively good deal for a Family Plan
       | (compared to say Google Drive or Dropbox) for OneDrive, I finally
       | dropped my Microsoft 365 Family plan.
       | 
       | The final straw was that the Copilot was completely unhelpful and
       | hallucinated features Office portal does not have.
        
       | loeg wrote:
       | Semi tangential, but I'm amazed there isn't more uproar over what
       | Microsoft is doing with Windows 10 <-> 11 and devices that don't
       | have hardware TPM. Just completely fucking their user base, to
       | what end? A one-time bump in sales for hardware partners?
        
         | mythrwy wrote:
         | They have been screwing over their user base for a long time
         | though incrementally.
        
           | loeg wrote:
           | Things were pretty good for like a decade, from Windows 7
           | through most of 10!
        
       | iptq wrote:
       | The $50 million punishment feels so insubstantial to Microsoft
       | that they probably wouldn't even think twice before doing similar
       | things again or worse. Only things that could threaten the bottom
       | line would actually make companies reconsider.
        
         | mattmanser wrote:
         | No expert, but these fines are usually exponential. Usually
         | they start with a slap on the wrist of $100,000s, then climb to
         | the millions.
         | 
         | That the opening figure is so high it's clear that if MS ever
         | do it again the fine will be in the billions.
         | 
         | So you might even say it's actually a moderately strong
         | statement by the Australian government that they're not playing
         | around.
        
         | inejge wrote:
         | > The $50 million punishment feels so insubstantial
         | 
         | It's potentially quite a bit more. TFA mentions another two
         | penalties: "three times the total benefits that have been
         | obtained and are reasonably attributable" (~2.5 million
         | customers times $40+ for the difference in subscrptions times
         | three is $300 million), or "30 per cent of the corporation's
         | adjusted turnover during the breach turnover period" if the
         | preceding can't be reasonably calculated (I'm not going to dig
         | through Microsoft's financial statements, but it's probably
         | substantial.) The greatest of three is taken.
         | 
         | If you still think it's pocket change, the point of fines is
         | not to bankrupt the company, but to lead them to less shitty
         | behavior by disincentivizing the alternative. It takes a
         | persistent effort and time.
        
       | stevenkkim wrote:
       | This happened to me in the U.S. too. Family plan went from $99/yr
       | to $129/yr. I was going to just going to resentfully accept this,
       | when I just got annoyed and said, "you know what? we don't use
       | word and excel enough to justify this and there are definitely
       | alternatives." Only when I went to cancel did I find out that
       | they tried to force me onto the $129 "with AI" plan (who actually
       | thinks AI features are worth anything? I've never used them in
       | office or really any MS product) and that the "without AI" plan
       | is still $99.
       | 
       | I decided to cancel anyway because I was still resentful.
       | 
       | Thing is, either $99 or $129 for the Family plan is actually
       | quite reasonable, our family has 5 users. I just don't like
       | giving money to deceitful or disrespectful companies.
       | 
       | If Microsoft had just kept the pricing the same as they had for
       | many years, I almost certainly would have re-subscribed.
        
         | giancarlostoro wrote:
         | The worst part is it literally costs them the same to tack on
         | AI they are just hiking the price in order to generate more
         | revenue. Running Word locally does not cost them more.
        
           | kenjackson wrote:
           | Actually I doubt that's true. There is a cost to running AI
           | in the cloud (I assume its not run locally).
        
             | stevenkkim wrote:
             | Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's in the cloud and not local.
             | Still useless to me.
             | 
             | I use AI all the time when coding (very useful) and ChatGPT
             | in general is also very useful. Never found Windows co-
             | pilot or Office co-pilot useful for anything.
        
         | dmix wrote:
         | > Family plan went from $99/yr to $129/yr.
         | 
         | How did you find out it was $30 more? Did they email you?
        
           | stevenkkim wrote:
           | Yes, here's the email. No mention of the $99 no-AI option.
           | 
           | Thank you for being a valued Microsoft 365 subscriber. To
           | reflect the value we've added over the past decade, address
           | rising costs, and enable us to continue delivering new
           | innovations, we're increasing the price of your subscription.
           | 
           | Effective February 14, 2025, the price for Microsoft 365
           | Family subscriptions will increase from USD 99.99* per year
           | to USD 129.99* per year. To continue with the new price, no
           | action is needed--your payment method on file will be
           | automatically charged. To make changes to your subscription
           | plan or turn off recurring billing, visit your Microsoft
           | account at least two days before your next billing date.
           | 
           | By maintaining your subscription, you'll enjoy secure cloud
           | storage, advanced security for your data and devices, and
           | cutting-edge AI-powered features, along with all your other
           | subscription benefits. Thank you for choosing Microsoft.
           | 
           | Learn more about how to manage your subscription, including
           | how to cancel and switch your subscription.
           | 
           | * Subscription prices listed do not include any discounts,
           | promotions, or special offers that may be available.
        
             | EvanAnderson wrote:
             | Same email here. My plan renewed in May. Absolutely no
             | advertising that I could keep my "classic" plan. It seemed
             | like the only choice was $129 or the highway.
             | 
             | I just did the steps described in[0] to convert back to the
             | "Classic" plan. Microsoft says my plan will renew in May
             | for $99, but I'm not getting the $15 of the $30 I was
             | forced into paying in May back. I've never used any of the
             | Copilot "features". I'd rather have my renewal discounted
             | by $15 to $30.
             | 
             | As I said in another comment: We need a US class action. It
             | will only enrich the lawyers but it might serve as some
             | type of deterrent to Microsoft. Maybe. Probably not.
             | 
             | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45722444
        
               | dmix wrote:
               | Netflix and Spotify also auto bump the prices even for
               | auto-renewal. I believe the issue here is that Microsoft
               | created a new pricing category while keeping the $99 one,
               | but bumped everyone to the new one. That is where it gets
               | sketchy.
               | 
               | If they eliminated the $99 one then it might be a
               | nothingburger.
               | 
               | Might be class action worthy.
        
         | jay_kyburz wrote:
         | I had to update my credit card details on Dropbox, but the
         | website it so badly designed, I almost just canceled. I'm not
         | sure if its dark patterns or incompetence.
         | 
         | I _suspect_ they switched me from annual billing to monthly
         | while I was updating, but the support chat guy said I was still
         | annual. If it turns out he was wrong, I'm out.
        
           | stevenkkim wrote:
           | I suspect Dropbox doesn't care about b2c customers anymore...
           | only b2b
        
       | matheusmoreira wrote:
       | So... How's Libre Office these days?
        
         | Nicook wrote:
         | works well enough for me!
        
         | octaane wrote:
         | Works really well! Switched over to them earlier this year,
         | dropped Microsoft suite entirely, and it works just fine.
        
       | mallets wrote:
       | Have the family plan prepaid for 2 years, mostly for the 1TB
       | OneDrive. The new plans are almost double the cost here, hope
       | this AI bundling dies a painful death by then. Though that
       | doesn't guarantee price cuts I guess.
        
       | chasd00 wrote:
       | So Microsoft can change the terms of a contract between you and
       | it without your approval? That's ...odd.
        
       | zahlman wrote:
       | Did anyone else look at the submission headline and think that
       | was an oddly specific number of subscriptions?
        
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