[HN Gopher] Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics (2014)
        
       Author : the-mitr
       Score  : 129 points
       Date   : 2025-10-27 04:27 UTC (18 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (tgvaughan.github.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (tgvaughan.github.io)
        
       | noosphr wrote:
       | I've often dreamed of a "Structure and interpretation" series of
       | books.
       | 
       | Scheme is pretty close to a universal computation substrate that
       | provides enough ergonomics to be human understandable and writing
       | anything out in it provides genuine illumination to what's going
       | on under the hood.
       | 
       | The "little" books are a tease of what that series could be.
        
         | fouronnes3 wrote:
         | I want to write Structure and Interpretation of Geometric
         | Optics. I have an outline already in my notes and I'm convinced
         | that the computing-first approach would benefit the field
         | immensely. I've been learning optics for a while and writing a
         | python library [0]. With a background in software it's very
         | obvious that there is strong SICP vibes in lenses, refraction,
         | etc. I just need someone to trust me and write me a check for 1
         | or 2 years salary so I can go full bunker mode and write it =)
         | 
         | [0] https://victorpoughon.github.io/torchlensmaker/
        
           | noosphr wrote:
           | Sicp is not computation first. Sicp is understanding first.
           | 
           | Doing the calculations automatically is a happy side effect
           | of finding the right abstractions for describing what's
           | happening physically and those abstractions being expressed
           | in scheme already.
           | 
           | E.g. Exercise 3.73 in SCIP asks how to implement an
           | electrical circuit using a stream data structure. Because of
           | all the work done beforehand you end up with an expression
           | which describes the time behaviour of the circuit using the
           | same expressions that describe its layout.
        
       | throwaway81523 wrote:
       | I didn't get anywhere trying to read this book. Then I watched a
       | youtube video about calculus of variations and suddenly
       | Lagrangian dynamics made total sense to me. I should probably try
       | reading the book again.
        
         | arunix wrote:
         | Do you remember which video that was?
        
           | griffzhowl wrote:
           | I don't know which it was but Dr. Jorge Diaz has an excellent
           | video on Lagrangian mechanics as part of a series on quantum
           | mechanics (this video just pertains to the formalism
           | applicable classically)
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnkIdw0HJQ
        
       | Schiphol wrote:
       | Does anybody know of a way to run the code in this book? I've
       | tried a couple of times but never quite succeeded.
        
         | nemoniac wrote:
         | You can run it in Racket with the SICP language.
         | 
         | https://docs.racket-lang.org/sicp-manual/SICP_Language.html
        
           | Schiphol wrote:
           | Ah, nice, I'll try that. SICM in particular relies on
           | numerical routines and things for scientific computing that
           | this perhaps doesn't cover. We'll see. Thanks!
        
         | noosphr wrote:
         | https://github.com/perceptual-ai/sicm-scheme-exercises
        
           | Schiphol wrote:
           | This is what I tried, unsuccessfully if I remember correctly.
           | I'll give it another try, thanks!
        
         | gsf_emergency_4 wrote:
         | https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/installation...
         | 
         | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62518079/scmutils-for-si...
         | 
         | Easter egg: if you dig deeper into the code you will find the
         | "amazing bug" (footnote on page 5)
         | 
         | https://arxiv.org/abs/1211.4892
        
           | gugagore wrote:
           | The bug being "perturbation confusion"?
        
             | gsf_emergency_4 wrote:
             | The specific bug in sicm is discussed on pages 19-21
             | 
             | (Sorry, it's been a while, but iirc the code comments call
             | it the amazing bug, with credit to Radul)
        
         | kkylin wrote:
         | MIT Scheme (and ScmUtils) are unfortunately not getting enough
         | maintainence, but they still work with a little effort.
         | Probably better on Linux than any other environment. If you
         | have a Mac you may try this:
         | 
         | https://github.com/kkylin/mit-scheme-intel-mac-patch?tab=rea...
         | 
         | Works well on Intel Macs and (with effort) _mostly_ works on
         | Apple Silicon.
        
         | HexDecOctBin wrote:
         | I found this, will try tomorrow:
         | https://hub.docker.com/r/sritchie/mechanics/
        
       | zkmon wrote:
       | Funny that we call it classical. Newton wouldn't have called it
       | so. Maybe we should categorize sciences based on the spatial
       | scale at which they operate.A specific scale might define a world
       | that has it's logic system, purpose, reasoning etc. For example,
       | quantum scale, human scale and cosmic scales have their own
       | physics, logic and causality.
        
         | kergonath wrote:
         | > Newton wouldn't have called it so.
         | 
         | Of course. To him that would be modern mechanics. Or just
         | mathematical natural philosophy, or whatever.
         | 
         | > Maybe we should categorize sciences based on the spatial
         | scale at which they operate.
         | 
         | That would not be very useful, because there is no boundary.
         | Nothing in general relativity says "below this everything is
         | Newtonian". As a matter of fact we need to consider
         | relativistic effects in quantum chemistry calculations that
         | involve some heavy elements, at length scales smaller than 0.1
         | nm. Similarly, they just gave a Nobel prize for work on
         | "Quantum properties on a human scale".
         | 
         | > For example, quantum scale, human scale and cosmic scales
         | have their own physics, logic and causality.
         | 
         | That is not at all how these frameworks are built, and that is
         | not the dominant epistemological approach. The mainstream view
         | is that there is a theory of everything that exists but is
         | unknown to us, and that our various theories are approximations
         | of that theory under different assumptions. They look
         | categorically different because we don't understand the
         | overarching framework, not because nature is fundamentally
         | different depending on scale.
         | 
         | Also, I don't see how the logic is fundamentally different
         | between e.g. quantum mechanics and general relativity. Both
         | rely heavily on things like Hamiltonian mechanics or
         | symmetries. Some behaviours are different (like photons
         | following geodesics and not straight lines, or superpositions
         | of quantum states), but these are not a fundamental problem: a
         | straight line is a limit case of a geodesic in a flat space,
         | and a unique state is a limit case of superposition.
         | 
         | I am not saying that everything is fine and we know everything,
         | just that there is no clear boundary between the situations in
         | which different theories are required and we cannot neatly
         | decompose the universe into different realms where different
         | theories apply.
        
           | zkmon wrote:
           | From my little knowledge, logic at Quantum scale appears
           | quite different:
           | 
           | * Things don't have their own location or identity
           | 
           | * Spatial and temporal extents don't exist
           | 
           | * Something may be true and false at the same time, or
           | concept of true and false may not be defined
           | 
           | * cause and effect goes for a toss, as behavior of time is
           | different
           | 
           | * Existence and non-existence co-exist, or come into
           | existence together
           | 
           | Similar effects at relatively-infinite scale (maybe purely
           | mathematical)
           | 
           | * Comparisons (big/small/equal) breakdown
           | 
           | * Regular arithmetic and logic breaks down
        
             | simiones wrote:
             | Most of these things are misunderstandings of quantum
             | mechanics, as we know it today.
             | 
             | The main thing that is at the root of all of them is the
             | word "things". In QM, the ground truth of the world is the
             | wavefunction of the system. The wavefunction assigns some
             | amplitude (potentially 0) to any possible state of the
             | system that it describes. It then evolves purely
             | deterministically from past to future, according to
             | Schrodinger's equation (or Dirac's equation, if you want to
             | discuss speeds close to that of light). The only kink is
             | interaction with a measurement device (what constitutes a
             | measurement device is one of the big mysteries that we
             | don't yet have an answer for). After a measurement, the
             | wavefunction collapses non-deterministically to one of the
             | states that the measurement device was set up to detect,
             | with a probability that is proportional to the amplitude of
             | the wave function of that state.
             | 
             | Now, this is the "ground truth" of QM. Everything else,
             | such as particles and space-time and so on are just stories
             | we tell to make sense of the wavefunction and its behavior.
             | Sometimes those descriptions break down, and they start
             | assigning weird fanciful ideas, such as retrocausality etc
             | - but these just prove that the stories are wrong, that
             | they are misinterpreting the math of the wavefunction.
             | 
             | I'd also note that the main "time is weird" factoid you
             | encounter related to QM experiments, the delayed-choice
             | quantum eraser, is mostly a misunderstanding /
             | sensationalization of the actual physics and the
             | experiment. It again only proves that certain
             | interpretations of what the wavefunction and its collapse
             | represent are not temporally consistent, but the direct
             | conclusion from this should be that the interpretations are
             | wrong, not that "cause and effect goes for a toss, as
             | behavior of time is different".
        
               | zkmon wrote:
               | If we can't even define a "thing", by identifying inside
               | and outside of it, what it is and what it is not, where
               | it is and where it is not, that itself a big contrast
               | with Newtonian (human scale) mechanics. Everything one
               | can talk about Quantum mechanics is coompletly alien to
               | the human perceived world. That should justify the
               | distinction by scale.
        
             | nyrikki wrote:
             | Most of these happen at most scales, but is more to do with
             | the classic _laws_ of classic logic that we accept _A
             | priori_ because they are useful.
             | 
             | * PNC: at most one is true; both can be false
             | 
             | * PEM, at least one is true; both can be true
             | 
             | * PNC + PEM, exactly one is true, exactly one is false
             | 
             | If you stick to the familiar computational complexity
             | classes P=co-P, but NP != co-NP, and those both relate to
             | the accessibility of T/F, where both P and NP are by
             | definition decision problems, specifically the ones that
             | can be verified in poly time.
             | 
             | If you ignore the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to avoid
             | that complexity, the standard model of QM is just mapping
             | continuous functions to discrete space, and will have
             | problems with the above.
             | 
             | This happens in math too, where we use the rationals over
             | the reals or Cauchy sequences to construct the reals,
             | because almost all reals are normal and non-computable, and
             | even equality between to "real" real numbers is
             | undecidable.
             | 
             | This is also related to why after Weierstrass show that
             | almost all continuous functions are nowhere smooth, we
             | moved to the Epsilon-Delta definition of a limits etc...
             | 
             | We have the lier's paradox, which is easier to understand
             | than Berry's paradox, which relates to Chaitin proof that
             | there is an upper limit to what any algorithm can prove.
             | 
             | Things at Quantum scale do act very different than our
             | typical intuition, but lots of maps from a continuous space
             | to discrete categories can exhibit the same behavior even
             | at macro scale, we just can often use a model that lets us
             | ignore that to accomplish useful work.
             | 
             | Often we can even use repeated approximation or other
             | methods to reduce those problems to something that is
             | practical, but that is still the map and not the territory.
             | 
             | Superposition is just that:                   f(a + b) =
             | f(a) + f(b)
             | 
             | And:                   f(sa) = s*f(a)
             | 
             | If you have two vectors, one at i (0,1) and one at 1 (1,0),
             | but a map that maps only to choice(1,i) and think of that
             | as up and down, how you divide that continuous arc from
             | that segment of the unit circle to UP or DOWN, almost all
             | of quantum mechanics still works, and it will be the
             | contradictions that conflict with our intuitions that will
             | become the barrier. (ignoring Heisenberg)
             | 
             | If you think about Heisenberg uncertainty as indeterminacy
             | instead, Independence in math (Like ZFC + CH) which are
             | neither provable as false or true, Chatlin's complexity
             | limits, the breakdown of Laplacian determinism, or even
             | modal logic all apply at multiple levels.
             | 
             | The amazing thing in my mind is that we found useful models
             | despite these limits and using methods which are effective.
             | 
             | But IMHO it is best to think that in the quantum world, we
             | aren't so lucky rather than those limits aren't still
             | lurking under the surface at the macro scale, which they
             | very much are.
        
           | IAmBroom wrote:
           | > > Maybe we should categorize sciences based on the spatial
           | scale at which they operate.
           | 
           | > That would not be very useful, because there is no
           | boundary. Nothing in general relativity says "below this
           | everything is Newtonian". As a matter of fact we need to
           | consider relativistic effects in quantum chemistry
           | calculations that involve some heavy elements, at length
           | scales smaller than 0.1 nm. Similarly, they just gave a Nobel
           | prize for work on "Quantum properties on a human scale".
           | 
           | You are just saying "well ackshually". I dare you to build a
           | cabinet using the Hamiltonian. I double-dog-dare you.
           | 
           | > > For example, quantum scale, human scale and cosmic scales
           | have their own physics, logic and causality.
           | 
           | > That is not at all how these frameworks are built, and that
           | is not the dominant epistemological approach.
           | 
           | Again, 99.999% of all functional mechanics don't involve
           | epistemology.
           | 
           | > The mainstream view is that there is a theory of everything
           | that exists but is unknown to us, and that our various
           | theories are approximations of that theory under different
           | assumptions.
           | 
           | Oh! You're so close to seeing the point... There are multiple
           | levels of approximation (at least two), and the one we all
           | experience is Newtonian. Perhaps more accurately, our senses
           | mostly believe pre-Newtonion approximations, which is why it
           | took until Newton to realize how inaccurate they were.
           | 
           | > Also, I don't see how the logic is fundamentally different
           | between e.g. quantum mechanics and general relativity.
           | 
           | You're pretty radically moving the goalposts here. GP was
           | talking about Newtonian mechanics, not Hamiltonian.
        
             | simiones wrote:
             | > You are just saying "well ackshually". I dare you to
             | build a cabinet using the Hamiltonian. I double-dog-dare
             | you.
             | 
             | The Hamiltoninan (and Lagrangian) are much more amenable to
             | actual physical calculations, at least on a computer, than
             | the Newtonian formulations of classical mechanics - but
             | otherwise they are perfectly equivalent mathematically. I'm
             | not sure where you'd need any kind of dynamical laws in the
             | building of a cabinet, on the other hand. Are you trying to
             | arrange for a system of inclined planes and pullies to slot
             | the pieces into place?
             | 
             | > Perhaps more accurately, our senses mostly believe pre-
             | Newtonion approximations, which is why it took until Newton
             | to realize how inaccurate they were.
             | 
             | This is a bit of misnomer. Our senses and intuitions are in
             | fact remarkably accurate for a certain range of values, and
             | quite equivalent to what Newton's laws of motion say about
             | these. To some extent, Newton "only" found a simple
             | formalism to represent our existing intuitions. Our
             | intuitions of course break down in other places, such as at
             | very high speeds, or very high altitudes , where
             | relativistic corrections start to become significant.
             | 
             | QM however is a paradigm shift in how the world is
             | described, and it is completely non-intuitive, even in
             | regimes where its predictions are fully aligned with our
             | intuitions and senses. You can use QM to compute the
             | collision of two ideal balls on an ideal plane, and the
             | results will exactly match your intuitions. But the
             | computation and even the representation of the system will
             | not, in any way.
        
             | kergonath wrote:
             | > You are just saying "well ackshually". I dare you to
             | build a cabinet using the Hamiltonian. I double-dog-dare
             | you.
             | 
             | We do that every day using things like finite elements.
             | It's just a different Hamiltonian that accounts for the
             | fact that we simplify bunches of atoms into a continuum.
             | 
             | > Again, 99.999% of all functional mechanics don't involve
             | epistemology.
             | 
             | Discussing the nature of scientific theories _is_
             | epistemology. The parent's point is epistemological in
             | nature.
             | 
             | > ! You're so close to seeing the point... There are
             | multiple levels of approximation (at least two), and the
             | one we all experience is Newtonian.
             | 
             | You are off base. There are many, many approximations that
             | may or may not overlap. It's not just onion layers.
             | 
             | > You're pretty radically moving the goalposts here. GP was
             | talking about Newtonian mechanics, not Hamiltonian.
             | 
             | GP was talking about different theories applying at
             | different scales. Sorry, it may not have been clear in
             | context but Hamiltonian here is not just the generalisation
             | of Newtonian mechanics we learn about in 2nd year Physics.
             | these theories (quantum mechanics, Newtonian mechanics, and
             | relativity) can be written using the Hamiltonian formalism.
        
             | BigTTYGothGF wrote:
             | > the one we all experience is Newtonian
             | 
             | The one we all experience is Aristotelian.
        
         | IAmBroom wrote:
         | We call music from Newton's age "classical".
         | 
         | As the past recedes, "the golden age" advances in time.
         | "Hollaback Girl" is now a classic oldie.
        
         | hyperjeff wrote:
         | These days "classical" just distinguishes all things quantum
         | from non-quantum. General relativity is considered a classical
         | theory, for example.
        
       | michaelsbradley wrote:
       | There's also _Functional Differential Geometry_ by the same
       | Sussman and Wisdom:
       | 
       | https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/b...
        
       | in_a_hole wrote:
       | Does anyone know a text which justifies why the Lagrangian
       | approach works? This text and many others I have encountered just
       | start with the Principle of Least Action taken as given and go
       | from there but I'm left wondering why we define the Action as
       | this object and why we should expect it to be minimised for the
       | physical trajectory in the first place.
       | 
       | Failing a full derivation from the ground up, a proof of the
       | equivalence to Newtonian mechanics would be interesting.
        
         | wbpaelias wrote:
         | I believe Veritasium had a series where they derive the
         | equivalence to Newton's laws
        
         | ano-ther wrote:
         | It's been a while but I seem to remember that the first book of
         | Landau-Lifschitz' Theroretical Mechanics starts with a 20 page
         | discussion that does this and culminates in the Lagrangian.
        
           | in_a_hole wrote:
           | I recently got hold of a copy of that. I started Hand & Finch
           | - Analytical Mechanics but their woolly discussion of virtual
           | work and virtual displacement was very frustrating and
           | unenlightening. Perhaps I'll have a better time with L&L.
        
         | nchagnet wrote:
         | Regarding the "why the action is this object" part of the
         | question, I find that the easiest way to think about it is from
         | the Hamiltonian perspective. There you can think of it as
         | minimising energy along a trajectory. From that point, a
         | Lagrangian is just a mathematical trick to express the
         | symplectic structure differently.
         | 
         | But if your question was more about "why minimizing something
         | yields trajectories", I personally would argue this is beyond
         | physics. As an empirical science, physicists have seen this
         | kind of behaviour broadly (optics, classical mechanics, quantum
         | mechanics) and just unified it as an overarching principle.
         | 
         | Finally regarding the proof to newtonian mechanics, I don't
         | have anything handy from the pure Newtonian perspective beyond
         | the usual "minimises the lagrangian and your equations of
         | motions look the same". However, you might be interested in
         | proofs which show newtonian gravity as low energy approximation
         | of general relativity. And since general relativity has a nice
         | action formulation, it all gets nicely tied in.
         | 
         | Hope this helps!
        
           | in_a_hole wrote:
           | But simply getting to the Lagrangian picture from the
           | Hamiltonian picture would just leave me wondering why the
           | Hamiltonian picture works!
           | 
           | My motivation for getting to the bottom of all this is to
           | fill the gaps in my physics understanding at least up to
           | quantum mechanics. I have a grasp of QM but I would like to
           | have some insight into the conceptual leaps that brought us
           | there from classical mechanics. QM works in the Hamiltonian
           | picture and I recall from my undergrad days that you get
           | there from a Legendre transformation on the Lagrangian (or
           | something to that effect) so I'm trying to understand the
           | justification of that approach before moving up the
           | conceptual ladder.
           | 
           | Ideally I would like to be able to trace my way from simple
           | postulates based on observation of the physical world all the
           | way to QM, then maybe to QFT after that.
        
             | aeonik wrote:
             | You know about the Ultraviolet catastrophe?
             | 
             | Physics Explained Ultraviolet Catastrophe:
             | https://youtu.be/rCfPQLVzus4
             | 
             | This Veritassium Video goes back further in time and talks
             | about Action, and the Genesis of this idea.
             | https://youtu.be/qJZ1Ez28C-A
             | 
             | Chemistorian, The history of Atomic Theory.
             | https://youtu.be/SqYPrA7upiE
        
             | nchagnet wrote:
             | "QM works in the Hamiltonian picture and I recall from my
             | undergrad days that you get there from a Legendre
             | transformation on the Lagrangian (or something to that
             | effect) so I'm trying to understand the justification of
             | that approach before moving up the conceptual ladder."
             | 
             | That is only one approach to QM. As you rightly point out,
             | Hamiltonian and Lagrangian approaches are always two sides
             | of the same coin: one is only the Legendre transformation
             | of the other and so they describe the same physics.
             | 
             | So to that end there is a neat QM Lagrangian
             | representation: the path integral formulation. You can
             | apply it to basic QM as well as to QFT or even QFT in
             | curved spacetimes and string theory.
             | 
             | So if your goal is to "trace your way from simple
             | postulates", that is a good way: assume your system can be
             | described by an action, and go from there. It works in
             | pretty much every scenario. In most research I've been
             | involved, you always end up constructing generic actions
             | whose coefficients eventually determine the behaviour of
             | the theory.
             | 
             | And to get back to what I assume is your real conundrum
             | (why do we extremize something to begin with), I just don't
             | think there's any true answer as to why nature behaves this
             | way.
             | 
             | What we can answer is: what is the action, what does it
             | represent, what does it mean to extremize it? The short
             | answer to this (provided by the path integral formulation I
             | mentioned earlier) is that the action is essentially
             | controlling a probability distribution of paths in a given
             | geometry. In quantum mechanics, we interpret this
             | distribution with that of actual particles. When you
             | extremize the distribution, you essentially find the most
             | likely trajectory, and if your distribution is peaked
             | enough around that trajectory, then you can take this path
             | as representative of your system when fluctuations are
             | ignored.
             | 
             | So in the classical limit of QM, that trajectory is all
             | that's left (and that would be the classical mechanics
             | trajectory).
             | 
             | Interestingly a similar interpretation exists in
             | statistical physics. If you "complexify" your time
             | dimension, your action is again on a Euclidean (instead of
             | lorentzian) spacetime and the time direction behaves like a
             | circle whose radius sets a scale akin to a temperature.
             | This might sound a bit complex but where I'm going with
             | this is that once again, you can think of this euclidean
             | path integral as a distribution of paths over fluctuations
             | (this time thermal), and the extremum is this time the
             | system's behaviour when at equilibrium.
        
         | omnicognate wrote:
         | It's an old book and I can't vouch for it as I only just
         | discovered it myself, but it appears to be very highly
         | regarded, it focuses on precisely the questions you (and I)
         | have, and just from the preface I like the author already [1]:
         | The Variational Principles of Mechanics, by Cornelius Lanczos.
         | 
         | There's a PDF here:
         | https://pages.jh.edu/rrynasi1/PhysicalPrinciples/literature/...
         | 
         | [1] An appetising quote:
         | 
         | > The author is well aware that he could have shortened his
         | exposition considerably, had he started directly with the
         | Lagrangian equations of motion and then proceeded to Hamilton's
         | theory. This procedure would have been justified had the
         | purpose of this book been primarily to familiarize the student
         | with a certain formalism and technique in writing down the
         | differential equations which govern a given dynamical problem,
         | together with certain "recipes" which he might apply in order
         | to solve them. But this is exactly what the author did not want
         | to do. There is a tremendous treasure of philosophical meaning
         | behind the great theories of Euler and Lagrange, and of
         | Hamilton and Jacobi, which is completely smothered in a purely
         | formalistic treatment, although it cannot fail to be a source
         | of the greatest intellectual enjoyment to every mathematically-
         | minded person. To give the student a chance to discover for
         | himself the hidden beauty of these theories was one of the
         | foremost intentions of the author.
        
           | in_a_hole wrote:
           | I had heard about this book and that quote makes me want to
           | read it. Thank you.
        
           | DarmokJalad1701 wrote:
           | The author of this book is the same Lanczos that the "Lanczos
           | Resampling" algorithm (used in image resizing for example),
           | is named after:
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanczos_resampling
        
         | whatshisface wrote:
         | The least action principle conceptually emerged from the least
         | time principle for light. Light refracts along the path that
         | gets it from the starting to the ending point the quickest, and
         | the index of refraction is what regulates its speed. The
         | question went like this: we know that potential and kinetic
         | energy work together to regulate the speed of moving objects.
         | Is there a way to combine the two quantities into something
         | like an index of refraction? The analogy between potential
         | fields and optics isn't just conceptual - beams of charged
         | particles are focused using electromagnetic "lenses," made out
         | of fields.
        
           | in_a_hole wrote:
           | Do you know any references that discuss this in detail? I'm
           | interested in the history of these developments. Who noticed
           | this? Who asked this question?
        
         | lucozade wrote:
         | > why we define the Action as this object and why we should
         | expect it to be minimised for the physical trajectory in the
         | first place.
         | 
         | The most coherent explanation I've heard was from Feynnman [0].
         | As far as I understand it (and I may well not have understood
         | it at all well), at the quantum level, all paths are taken by a
         | particle but the contributions of the paths away from the
         | stationary point tend to cancel each other. So, at a
         | macroscopic level, the net effect appears to be be that the
         | particle is following the path of least action.
         | 
         | > a proof of the equivalence to Newtonian mechanics
         | 
         | The Lagrangian method isn't really equivalent to Newton's
         | method. Again, Feynman talks about this in [0]. It's that for a
         | certain class of action, the Euler-Lagrange equations are
         | equivalent to Newton's laws.
         | 
         | It's perfectly plausible to come up with actions that recover
         | systems that represent Einsteinian relativity or quantum
         | mechanics. This is the main reason (as I understand it) why
         | it's considered a more powerful formalism.
         | 
         | [0] https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_19.html
        
         | abdullahkhalids wrote:
         | There is no explanation for this, same as there is no real
         | explanation for why energy is conserved or why closed systems
         | have non-decreasing entropy. As others have pointed out, you
         | can show correspondence to Newtonian mechanics under some
         | assumptions, but the Lagrangian approach is applicable to a
         | wide variety of areas in physics - classical mechanics, optics,
         | quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, etc.
         | 
         | The universe has these weird laws, and for now, all we can do
         | is accept them as is. But hopefully, in the future, someone
         | will figure out deeper and simpler principles.
        
           | nh23423fefe wrote:
           | Seems false. Energy conservation is explained via time
           | translation symmetry and noether's theorem. 2nd law is
           | explained by boltzmann's H-theorem.
        
         | aap_ wrote:
         | Unfortunately I can't help with the classical picture, but in
         | quantum physics it all comes out very nicely: You can interpret
         | the Lagrangian as giving all possibilities to build a
         | trajectory through spacetime. In the path integral formulation
         | we then follow one such trajectory from one configuration to
         | another configuration and find its amplitude. And then we
         | integrate over _all_ possible trajectories that we could have
         | picked. For incoherent trajectories there will always be
         | another one that cancels out the amplitude. Where the
         | amplitudes add up constructively you will find stationary
         | action and the classical behavior in the limit. So this is a
         | depth-first approach: first follow one trajectory completely,
         | then add up all possible trajectories.
         | 
         | The Hamiltonian approach in contrast is breadth-first: you
         | single out a time axis, start with some initial state, and
         | consider all possibilities that a particle (or field in QFT)
         | could evolve forwards in time just a tiny bit (this is what the
         | Hamiltonian operator does). Then you add up all these
         | possibilities to find the next state, and so you move forwards
         | through time by keeping track of all possible evolutions all at
         | once. This massive superposition of everything that is possible
         | (with corresponding amplitudes) is what you call a state (or
         | wavefunction) and the space that it lives in is the Hilbert (or
         | Fock) space.
         | 
         | So Lagrangian/path-integral: follow full trajectories, then add
         | up all possible choices. depth-first
         | 
         | Hamiltonian/time-evolution: add up all choices for a tiny step
         | in time, then simply do more steps: breadth-first
         | 
         | I imagine it a bit like a scanline algorithm calculating an
         | image as it moves down the screen (Hamiltonian) vs something
         | like a stochastic raytracer that can start with an empty image
         | and refine it pixel by pixel by shooting more rays (Lagrangian)
         | 
         | This is my layman explanation anyways...hopefully it helps,
         | even though i can't say much about their relationship in
         | classical physics.
        
       | mindaslab wrote:
       | What software they used to create this wonderful book?
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Related. Others?
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics (2015)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40805136 - June 2024 (12
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31568387 - May 2022 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23153778 - May 2020 (40
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics (2015)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19765019 - April 2019 (87
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9560567 - May 2015 (20
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6947257 - Dec 2013 (37
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1581696 - Aug 2010 (20
       | comments)
        
         | Jtsummers wrote:
         | By the same authors so related but not SICM itself:
         | 
         |  _Functional Differential Geometry (2012) [pdf]_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7884551 - June 2014 (38
         | comments)
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2025-10-27 23:02 UTC)