[HN Gopher] Galaxy XR: The first Android XR headset
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Galaxy XR: The first Android XR headset
        
       Related: https://www.samsung.com/us/xr/galaxy-xr/galaxy-xr/,
       https://www.samsung.com/us/business/xr/galaxy-xr/galaxy-xr/
        
       Author : thelastgallon
       Score  : 141 points
       Date   : 2025-10-22 16:50 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.google)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.google)
        
       | zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
       | This looks to be somewhere between a Quest 3 and Apple Vision
       | Pro, with a price point to match. Is that correct?
        
         | ZiiS wrote:
         | It is aiming to be much closer to the Vision Pro. Whist it is
         | nearly half the price, it is probably still twice the price
         | where that would make much difference. The market that _needs_
         | this is tiny/nonexistent; if you are happy to drop $1,800 to
         | try a device that needs a lot more product and software work
         | :shrug: the should be some second hand Vision Pros very close
         | to this. (Obviously, other Apple/Android deciders not
         | withstanding).
        
           | KaiserPro wrote:
           | > It is aiming to be much closer to the Vision Pro
           | 
           | Its going to need some really good optics for that.
        
             | ZiiS wrote:
             | It is starting with significantly higher resolution
             | displays, harder to know about the rest of the path till we
             | see more reviews.
        
         | TGower wrote:
         | Higher resolution displays than the Apple Vision Pro at half
         | the price, though the compute of XR2 Gen2+ is probably weaker
        
         | xnx wrote:
         | > between a Quest 3 and Apple Vision Pro
         | 
         | The display, weight, fit, and openness seem better than the
         | Apple Vision Pro. The Apple Vision Pro is still the best choice
         | if you want a screen that shows your eyes on the outside some
         | of the time.
        
       | giancarlostoro wrote:
       | So, it's been a few years, but does Samsung still have... issues
       | with devices exploding? I would not want to live out Sword Art
       | Online IRL.
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | They've been fine on the battery front for a while, the
         | explodey Galaxy Note was a decade ago. They're understandably
         | quite conservative about charging speeds and adopting new
         | battery technologies now.
         | 
         | Edit: or maybe not, see the sibling comment about their smart
         | ring. At least that looks like an isolated incident.
        
           | giancarlostoro wrote:
           | Beautiful, I may someday in the future try Android XR, for
           | the meantime the Quest 3S is fine for my needs.
        
         | walterbell wrote:
         | _> exploding_
         | 
         | expanding? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45423490
        
         | jama211 wrote:
         | You just take it off, so similar danger really to keeping a
         | phone in your pocket against your skin, which I assume you have
         | no problems doing
        
         | nerdix wrote:
         | For anyone actually concerned about this: the Galaxy XR uses an
         | external battery pack with a long power cable just like the
         | Vision Pro. The battery is not attached to the headset itself.
        
       | rs186 wrote:
       | Anyone watched last evening's live event?
       | 
       | The use cases they showed are just as stupid as those shown in
       | Apple's event over two years ago.
        
       | dangus wrote:
       | Oof, a little late to this bandwagon. Basically every player in
       | this industry is dealing with weak/declining sales.
        
         | jama211 wrote:
         | They're not stupid. They know this won't sell many items, they
         | don't expect it to. This is what you'd call a "market signal"
         | product. It markets them as an innovative company, with their
         | fingers in a little bit of every pie, and reminds everyone that
         | they exist and make cool things. It's valuable both for your
         | company image and for your internal experimental development to
         | do this sort of thing now and again.
        
           | dangus wrote:
           | It would be a market signal product if this was 2017.
        
       | hu3 wrote:
       | > Galaxy XR is available starting today for $1799 or $149/month.
       | It includes:
       | 
       | > 12 months of Google AI Pro, YouTube Premium, and Google Play
       | Pass.
       | 
       | Not a bad deal for those who pay for those services.
       | 
       | What does Apple bundles with their Vision Pro for $3500?
        
         | jama211 wrote:
         | I don't think either sound like a good deal to be honest
        
         | qingcharles wrote:
         | I thought the same. They're throwing in a ton of extras to try
         | to sweeten the deal. Those ones you listed are probably $50/mo
         | in total. Plus it says something about a bunch of sports
         | subscriptions too, which are probably very pricey.
         | 
         | (also they want you hooked on those services so they can rebill
         | you after 12 months)
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | I guess that's what, ~$600? But the odds of using all that on
         | the same account and caring about the savings seems pretty
         | niche.
        
         | dmitrygr wrote:
         | > What does Apple bundles with their Vision Pro for $3500?
         | 
         | Support for over 5 years, unlike google who'll kill this in
         | around half that long?
        
         | parasubvert wrote:
         | 3 months of Apple One I believe? (iCloud+, Apple TV, Apple
         | Music, Arcade, Fitness+ and News+)
        
         | hapticmonkey wrote:
         | > What does Apple bundles with their Vision Pro for $3500?
         | 
         | That the device you strap to your face isn't tracking your
         | personal data.
        
       | ageitgey wrote:
       | This is going to be sick to buy for almost nothing in like a year
       | when it inevitably gets discontinued.
        
       | ZeroCool2u wrote:
       | The workspace feature seems like the biggest differentiator
       | between this and the Apple Vision Pro. Full multi window display,
       | with what seems to be desktop app functionality? That's almost
       | tempting.
        
       | malnourish wrote:
       | I realize this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but how can anyone
       | justify buying this when Google notoriously kills off projects?
       | My money says this goes the way of the Pixel tablet.
       | 
       | If Apple couldn't make it work, does Google really think they
       | can? This should be headlining an event, not relegated to a blog
       | post.
        
         | nba456_ wrote:
         | this was an event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITXJquX9FqM
        
           | malnourish wrote:
           | Thank you, I stand corrected on there being an event.
        
           | hnuser123456 wrote:
           | Comments are disabled. Were there any utter flubs like meta's
           | AI cooking demo?
        
         | IncreasePosts wrote:
         | This is really just a hacker news/inside tech meme. Look at
         | half the comments on this submission, they're just low effort
         | "lol Google kills off products" statements. Random people on
         | the street would have no idea what you're talking about,
         | because they use chrome, android, Google search, discover,
         | Gmail, and Google maps.
         | 
         | I think Google just has a habit of making products that excite
         | techies but then prove unsustainable for a wider audience
         | (reader being the prime example). I think them trying that (and
         | then failing) is better for everyone than them simply not even
         | trying, which is what some other major tech players do(Apple)
         | 
         | If people actually want to use this product and it is selling
         | well and there are a lot of android XR users, then it's
         | unlikely that Google will kill it. If it doesn't sell well and
         | there aren't many android XR users, sure, it may be killed, but
         | I don't think you'll find many examples of companies sustaining
         | an unprofitable line of business just for the goodwill of the
         | few people using the product.
        
           | lynndotpy wrote:
           | This isn't a reputation only "techies" have picked up on. The
           | Pixel phone upgrade gram, Chromecast, and Stadia are all
           | things I've seen very normal people lament disappearing.
           | Youtube and Search constantly changing for the worse are also
           | well-worn and the subject of memes.
        
           | wlesieutre wrote:
           | For consumer hardware spaces (tablets and smartwatches)
           | they're currently acting like they care, but they have
           | previously checked out of those spaces and then come back
           | years later saying "Just kidding actually we are doing
           | tablets!"
           | 
           | What might save this one is that the Oculus Quest ecosystem
           | being Android based with similar hardware, so it should be
           | pretty easy for an ecosystem of appropriately designed
           | software to get ported over.
           | 
           | Kind of like how big screen Android devices have been an
           | afterthought for most apps (hope you like enlarged phone UIs)
           | but what might rescue tablets this time is foldable phones
           | showing up and making developers consider "what if the screen
           | isn't a tall rectangle?"
           | 
           | I still think there's high chances they have one or two
           | generations of hardware trying to copy the Oculus Quest /
           | Vision Pro and then pull the plug and say "forget VR we're
           | doing AI glasses." They were ahead of the curve with Google
           | Glass, but have that habit of bailing on things and giving up
           | the first mover advantage.
        
             | psunavy03 wrote:
             | AR is going to be on the back burner unless miniaturization
             | improves for the price point. The only player in that space
             | I'm aware of is Anduril's EagleEye, which is Son of
             | HoloLens 2 for the Army's IVAS contract. AFAIK Anduril
             | yoinked all the staff and tech from the HoloLens team (or a
             | lot of the staff anyway) when it fell over.
             | 
             | MS and Magic Leap tried to make holographic AR work, but
             | the state of the art wasn't cheap and compact enough for
             | them to make any money on it.
        
           | sorenjan wrote:
           | Another example would be Android Wear. They lost interest in
           | that for years and let it languish, and only recently started
           | caring again with the help of Samsung. But an old watch I
           | bought never got an update, in fact it lost functionality
           | compared to when I bought it, and I won't fall in that trap
           | again. I also switched to Spotify when Google shut down their
           | Play music, I'll much rather get my music from someone where
           | that is their business model and not a hobby.
        
           | anonymars wrote:
           | "Am I spending $1800 on a product that will be useful for one
           | year, five years, or ten years" is a relevant question, and
           | often past performance _is_ indicative of future results
           | 
           | To their credit, they did seem to make things right for
           | Stadia.
           | 
           | Meanwhile, if we look at Microsoft and Windows MR, they
           | themselves did not, though one of their employees apparently
           | built a SteamVR driver on his own
           | (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45110883). Microsoft
           | should be embarrassed that they couldn't be bothered to do
           | that themselves.
        
           | brookst wrote:
           | Are random people on the street really a better approximation
           | of the market for a $1800 XR headset than HN users would be?
        
           | p_l wrote:
           | Reader got so much flak because it was not just niche techie
           | thing, but also had a big footprint among... journalists.
           | 
           | So you had extra backlash because the people who most felt it
           | were also people way more vocal
        
           | georgeecollins wrote:
           | The problem is that Google actively and seriously works to
           | excite developers. Developers develop, Google abandons, and
           | the effort made by the developer is wasted.
           | 
           | That's why I don't like Google abandoning projects so much.
           | Sure everybody does this sometimes, but no one does it as
           | much as Google. It's not because I am a "techie". It's
           | because it has been bad for my business. I don't care what
           | people off the street think.
           | 
           | This is not a meme.
        
         | ls-a wrote:
         | People are still buying the second version of Pebble watch.
         | It's called wasting money.
        
           | jama211 wrote:
           | Your comment is unhelpful, uncalled for, and unrelated.
        
           | asadm wrote:
           | what? the Pebble is essentially very refreshing offering. I
           | am tired of "too-smart" Apple watch and am eagerly waiting
           | for my Pebble!
        
             | ls-a wrote:
             | It's a dead product that was resurrected to cash out again
             | from money wasters before it gets killed again
        
               | asadm wrote:
               | my original Pebble still works. Not sure what you mean by
               | dead.
        
           | numpad0 wrote:
           | Everything in this universe is waste of resources. _The true
           | value of anything is nothing, nothing has a true value_ [1].
           | Physical substances are mere representations of causalities.
           | 
           | 1: gasp this makes so much more sense read as English, I
           | guess it really was written in an Indo-European language
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | Only buy the product for what it is, and not what it might be.
         | Assuming they don't go out of their way to brick it post
         | shutdown, you should still have an ok device.
        
           | ares623 wrote:
           | Stadia owners in shambles
        
             | zeagle wrote:
             | I'm last to defend Google usually but not a great example.
             | My inlaws got a refund for the hardware and new games they
             | purchased/played and got to keep the controller. Everything
             | else they've killed? Sure. I wish most collapsed ecosystems
             | did this.
        
               | bsimpson wrote:
               | You basically got to play Cyberpunk for free and keep one
               | of the most ergonomic controllers ever afterwards.
        
             | rockostrich wrote:
             | Not at all considering they fully refunded all purchases. I
             | got 4 free bluetooth controllers out of it.
        
               | overfeed wrote:
               | ... don't forget the free 4k Chromecast(s)
        
         | hbn wrote:
         | > My money says this goes the way of the Pixel tablet.
         | 
         | I need to do a Google search every time to recall their history
         | with tablets. I remember the Nexus tablets which came out for
         | like a 3 year streak.
         | 
         | Then it was the Pixel C in 2015, then a 3 year gap until the
         | Pixel Slate, then 5 years before the Pixel Tablet. Do not ask
         | me about any of their capabilities or their intention in the
         | market because every release could have been anything.
         | 
         | I'm so beyond getting on board with anything Google puts out,
         | it's kinda just funny to watch and laugh at this point.
        
           | bsimpson wrote:
           | I think the Pixel C was rumored to be a Chromebook that got
           | Android instead last minute, and then the Pixel Slate did run
           | Android, and now there are all the rumors about ChromeOS
           | being rebased atop Android...
        
             | skiman10 wrote:
             | The Pixel Slate actually did run ChromeOS and then could
             | run Android apps in a VM haha.
             | 
             | And those aren't rumors, there is a pretty big effort to
             | get Android ready for ChromeOS and get feature parity.
             | Which to me is really unfortunate, CrOS has such a nice
             | linux base.
        
               | bsimpson wrote:
               | True, but I can see the argument for it. Kinda wild to
               | maintain two different userspaces for Linux, when one is
               | far and away the most popular for smaller-than-computer
               | devices.
               | 
               | Plus, it gives Android developers a widescreen
               | demographic to target, which might finally give them a
               | nudge to make their UIs adapt to things that aren't
               | portrait candybars.
        
             | mdwrigh2 wrote:
             | Yeah, that's exactly what happened with the Pixel C. A lot
             | of politics around who would own tablets and laptops at the
             | time that meant the winds changed direction ~yearly, hence
             | the horribly confusing product line ups that happened.
        
         | baby wrote:
         | Meta is making it work
        
           | TulliusCicero wrote:
           | Meta has reasonably priced headsets, with controllers that
           | work well for gaming, and a large library of reasonably
           | compelling games (admittedly basically all indie games).
           | 
           | It looks like Google has a very expensive headset, no
           | controllers, and thus no real games to go along with it.
        
             | spogbiper wrote:
             | controllers are an optional first party accessory as shown
             | in the demonstration. i'd expect it to work with 3rd party
             | controllers as well. whether Meta games will port I'm not
             | sure but since both are android based it shouldn't be too
             | difficult?
        
               | laweijfmvo wrote:
               | at $249, the headset plus controllers put it over $2000,
               | which is a lot to spend on an unknown product that might
               | be deprecated on arrival. The Meta Quest 3S includes
               | controllers and is currently on sale for $249, and at
               | least you mostly know what you're going to get, even if
               | they never release another VR headset.
        
               | hadlock wrote:
               | I think everyone who has ever owned a game console and
               | bought the "optional first party accessory" (super scope
               | 6, kinect, etc) is painfully aware that since developers
               | can't count on widespread adoption, they almost never
               | waste resources implementing support for them.
               | 
               | Not that it matters, apple has dropped support for true
               | VR and now that google doesn't have to compete on this
               | obscure battlefield, it will be cancelled before the end
               | of Q4. I honestly feel bad for the team it was probably a
               | good product. The launch event may have only been done
               | for tax purposes to recover R&D losses.
        
         | zoeysmithe wrote:
         | Did Apple try to get into this market? Their device is fairly
         | ridiculous compared to where VR seems to have been going all
         | these years: cheap nearly disposable headsets like the Oculus.
         | Which I believe is half the price of the original HTC Vive.
         | 
         | More expensive than the Vive isn't the way forward. Apple had a
         | tech demo and slumping quarterly reports and need some PR wins,
         | so out came the headset. I don't think it was a good faith
         | effort to get into this market. I think it was to get
         | headlines, jazz up stocks, and get attention as an innovator
         | outside of laptops and phones.
         | 
         | I have no idea what Google can do here, but Android is a long
         | running project. The Pixel line has long-ish term support.
         | Google can eat Oculus's lunch. I just think the question is if
         | Oculus's walled garden is now too high to climb, both in
         | software and patents. FB money and Carmack's talents are going
         | to be hard to beat here.
         | 
         | If I had to guess, I'd say Google saw Oculus get good at games,
         | but everything else about it is fairly uninteresting. XR/AR
         | could be hot and those new Meta glasses are pretty much Google
         | Glass on steroids. So who knows, but seeing Google dive back
         | into AR/XR is promising and I think they can compete here in a
         | way they can't with VR games.
         | 
         | I could see myself buying AR glasses branded Pixel or Google.
         | I'd think they'd be a better product than Meta. I don't know
         | where Google is going with this and this product seems
         | underwhelming, but we may have an entirely different product in
         | a year or two. I have a feeling both Apple and Samsung's
         | product are PR placeholders until they can catch up to Meta on
         | shoe-horning this into Ray-Ban-esque glasses format.
        
         | AshamedCaptain wrote:
         | And Samsung is even worse: remember GearVR ?
         | 
         | I had a Note device that on launch was compatible with GearVR,
         | but they killed support for it in one of the few the Android
         | updates. This was back when getting 3 Android updates was
         | "lucky". i.e. they launched and completely killed GearVR
         | (paperweight level) all within 5 years.
        
           | SunlitCat wrote:
           | Especially Samsung.
           | 
           | I'm still very salty about Samsung never officially releasing
           | their Samsung Odyssey VR headset in Europe. It was the best
           | VR headset among the Windows Mixed Reality headsets at the
           | time of their release.
           | 
           | Of course, the HP Reverb was better, but it came out much
           | later, too late for WMR to really take off.
           | 
           | I still believe that if Microsoft had forced Samsung to
           | release the Odyssey VR headset worldwide, WMR could have been
           | a success.
           | 
           | And I'm pretty sure Samsung won't release this one (the
           | Galaxy VR) worldwide either, which will be the reason it
           | fails and Google will probably take that as an excuse to shut
           | down the project as well.
        
             | gs17 wrote:
             | > I still believe that if Microsoft had forced Samsung to
             | release the Odyssey VR headset worldwide, WMR could have
             | been a success.
             | 
             | I'm not sure if Microsoft actually wanted to _try_ to make
             | it a success. They made a lot of decisions that didn 't
             | help it succeed, with one of those decisions leading to
             | every headset being a brick (officially, although Oasis
             | fixes them) now. I could go on and on about it, because I
             | love my Odyssey+ and it's frustrating to see how they
             | screwed the ecosystem up so badly.
        
         | LarsDu88 wrote:
         | Its obvious this was greenlit in response to Apple Vision Pro,
         | which means is about 1 year away from being killed as soon as
         | Apple pulls back on Vision Pro in favor of some sort of AR
         | smart glass technology
        
         | p1necone wrote:
         | Hopefully you can bypass the builtin software and use it as a
         | PC vr headset, otherwise it's just going to be ewaste.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Remember Tango.
         | 
         | Yeah, this is going nowhere, is the typical case having to do
         | something because the neighbour is also doing it.
        
       | riedel wrote:
       | 1.8k$ that is roughly 10x the amount I paid for my XReal Air 2.
       | Does watching movies. Does work as a display using Android
       | desktop mode and the phone as an air mouse [0] (worked best for
       | me).
       | 
       | Wonder what I get for the other 1.6k, that makes me want it...
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.htl.agmous...
        
         | rtkwe wrote:
         | The XReals are just screens so no tracking and lower resolution
         | at 1080 vs 4k. They're completely different products.
        
           | riedel wrote:
           | It is clear to me that it is different tech. However, I am
           | not referring to the tech, but rather those applications they
           | promoting. IMHO, there needs to be a better case for those
           | features. I acknowledge that people want 4k in other places,
           | so I guess it is partially only me. But particularly for the
           | real AR I somehow doubt that resolution is the problem.
        
             | rtkwe wrote:
             | Resolution is extremely important for VR and trying to
             | display screens and text. The best screen you can possibly
             | reproduce is the same resolution as the screens in the eyes
             | and takes up the whole FOV so for anything further back
             | than that the headset can only approximate what the screen
             | would look like (down to the point of diminishing returns
             | where the pixels are smaller than your eye can resolve).
        
         | __m wrote:
         | Double the resolution, integrated cpu and gpu, +3 DoF
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | > Double the resolution
           | 
           | and 4x the pixels
        
         | AndrewKemendo wrote:
         | The xreal are great and imo do 90% of what I want to do with AR
         | 
         | The software ecosystem and wireless are the things lacking
        
         | BoorishBears wrote:
         | This is roughly 100x better of a screen so that pricing tracks.
         | 
         | (I have Xreals and they're a fun toy, but AVP and this are what
         | the average person thinks of when they think of a virtual
         | screen, not the peephole xreals offer.
        
         | soco wrote:
         | But what AR can you do with them? I mean, what AR content can
         | you get nowadays? Labeling the stuff around you? Pedestrian or
         | bike navigation (not full screen display but hints)? Tourist
         | information? Any of this integrates with a sibling app for
         | extra info on the connected phone? I'm asking all this because
         | for games I think VR is much better, and trying to understand
         | the current practical value of customer AR.
        
           | jama211 wrote:
           | I saw someone painting on a real window with a digital image
           | projected onto it with their Apple Vision Pro kinda like a
           | stencil. There are similar use cases like that.
        
           | riedel wrote:
           | Xreal is rather VR (it is nice to see what is around you
           | still). However, where are the actual AR apps that make
           | sense? Also who runs around with a Vision Pro. Then there is
           | the camera issue. If things have not changed, you will not be
           | welcomed in Europe wearing a camera rig (just read Steve
           | Mann's accounts on that).
        
         | servercobra wrote:
         | Having used XReals and Vision Pro (which I assume will be very
         | similar), they're not even in the same ballpark for experience
         | for movies and for desktop. XReals feel like a crappy monitor
         | strapped to your face that bounces with your pulse, tilts, etc
         | and not enough resolution to be good for coding. Vision Pro
         | feels like you're in both the virtual world and real world
         | (plus the ultra wide Mac Virtual Desktop is amazing). I tried
         | to dev on XReal and quickly gave up. Vision Pro I've been using
         | consistently for over a year. Is it worth it? That's personal
         | preference, but I think so.
        
           | hiq wrote:
           | When do you use it? When you're on the go, like on a plane?
           | Or even at home, or in an office? Mostly for coding? Can you
           | use it all day long?
           | 
           | I don't think the tech is good enough for me personally but
           | I'm hoping we get there in a few years.
        
             | nullishdomain wrote:
             | I'm not who you were responding to, but I use it on the
             | plane, at home, mostly for coding but also for
             | entertainment as well. I probably average about 6 to 8
             | hours a day in the headset. I've used a variety of headsets
             | in the past, starting way back with the DK2 for Oculus, and
             | the AVP is the first I felt was truly capable of replacing
             | my monitors.
        
               | hiq wrote:
               | Thanks for sharing. Why at home? Is it simply your main
               | setup, so you got rid of external displays thanks to it?
               | I'd have thought that in a situation where you can easily
               | use regular displays, these were still preferable.
               | 
               | I'm surprised that you find it comfortable enough for 6+
               | hours, especially since you probably need to keep it
               | plugged in. I thought the consensus was that for most
               | users it was hard to keep them on even for just a whole
               | movie.
        
       | sirjaz wrote:
       | Microsoft dropped the Hololens and it was in this price range
       | with a much better product. So I have a feeling this will be a
       | google glass type item
        
         | jama211 wrote:
         | I personally used a HoloLens, it was absolutely not a better
         | product. Interesting for the time, but wow was the fov small,
         | and the uses limited.
        
       | turblety wrote:
       | I think this is really cool, and the more competition and devices
       | in this space the better. But absolutely no way I will spend that
       | much money for a Google product, that they'll probably kill off
       | in less than a year.
        
         | gundmc wrote:
         | It's a Samsung product though
        
           | jsheard wrote:
           | Yeah but it's built around the Android XR platform, a Google
           | product. If Google kills XR then the hardware won't be much
           | use.
        
             | throwaway314155 wrote:
             | That doesn't make it a Google product.
        
             | dotnet00 wrote:
             | I wonder if Samsung has secured promises of commitment.
             | IIRC they required Google to commit to improving Android's
             | support for tablets before committing to devices like the Z
             | Fold.
        
             | Groxx wrote:
             | I'm not really seeing how re-emphasizing Google's
             | involvement implies a reduced chance of abandonment.
             | Google's kinda famous for that.
        
           | turblety wrote:
           | Yeah, fair point, although it's this Android XR thing I don't
           | trust will live a year.
           | 
           | Even if it did, to me Samsung + Google is just a no go:
           | 
           | Samsung: Bloated with apps I don't want, can't uninstall but
           | probably won't be killed off.
           | 
           | Google: Lean, not too much bloat, but can't trust it to exist
           | more than a year.
        
           | numpad0 wrote:
           | Google loves to make impactful changes for street creds,
           | hardware manufacturers prefer not to support unsold products.
           | The end result is the same.
        
           | Jepacor wrote:
           | Samsung has already partnered with Microsoft in the past to
           | make WMR headsets, and that did not prevent Windows 11 from
           | dropping support for the device. The very same could happen
           | to a Android-based headset.
        
             | SunlitCat wrote:
             | And additionally, Samsung never released their Odyssey VR
             | (or it's successor) worldwide, which in my opinion was the
             | reason WMR failed as it was the best of the WMR headsets at
             | the time of their release (of course the HP Reverb was
             | better, but it came out much later).
        
         | baggachipz wrote:
         | Exactly my first thought. "One year of support at best". It's
         | sad that it's become a meme. I remember when they were the Good
         | Guys...sigh.
        
       | spwa4 wrote:
       | "Apps from top streaming services like Crunchyroll, HBO Max,
       | Peacock, and more"
       | 
       | Is there a fight between Google and Netflix?
       | 
       | Also USD 1800 per headset ... wow.
        
         | ncruces wrote:
         | Netflix is a launch partner.
         | 
         | https://threads.com/@techwitheugene/post/DQGFd5jiopP
        
       | drunx wrote:
       | I feel like this tech always misses real life usecases. I mean
       | yes sure we do watch movies... But are you really going to sit in
       | the headset for 2 hours straight. It's physically...
       | Biologically(?) Uncomfortable.
       | 
       | Then when they say - explore Google Maps - ok. Fun. But for what?
       | 10 minutes? How prominent is that need/activity in our life?
       | 
       | All usecases that Apple and now Google/Samsung showcase are
       | "imaginary", wishful thinking usecases. They don't stick. They
       | are more like "party-tricks" than something that can integrate
       | into our lives and fill in a certain gap.
        
         | polyomino wrote:
         | The only thing people really do for extended periods of time in
         | these headsets is play gorilla tag, highly skewed towards young
         | kids.
        
           | koolala wrote:
           | That or VRChat.
        
         | dmarcos wrote:
         | I've been in XR for a decade and there's a big gap between
         | people that make the headsets and those that use them. The
         | actual use cases are too niche for the big companies to care
         | long term so they have to invent narratives that don't
         | manifest. IMO, Valve focusing a headset in the best possible
         | gaming experience is the only one well positioned for an honest
         | play in the space.
        
         | kridsdale1 wrote:
         | The use-case is porn.
        
         | hapticmonkey wrote:
         | It's quite obvious that these devices are a prototype for some
         | eventual immersive AR glasses. Sure, they are currently bulky
         | and heavy and have poor battery life and block your face. But
         | these companies hope to eventually iterate all of that away.
         | 
         | This is the groundwork. But I don't know if they have a larger
         | vision (pun intended) other than "oh shit, the smartphone
         | industry has been conquered and now sees diminishing returns,
         | we need something else to generate revenue".
        
       | neuronexmachina wrote:
       | Samsung's product pages for the Galaxy XR itself:
       | 
       | * https://www.samsung.com/us/xr/galaxy-xr/galaxy-xr/
       | 
       | * https://www.samsung.com/us/business/xr/galaxy-xr/galaxy-xr/
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Thanks! we'll add those links to the toptext as well.
        
       | sfortis wrote:
       | I'm wondering why companies are still trying to sell VR headsets.
       | History clearly speaks: bulky head-mounted devices have all
       | epically failed.
        
         | ares623 wrote:
         | The investors yearn for VR
        
         | dotnet00 wrote:
         | There's enough of a market for them to exist these days. The
         | issue is that companies want to treat VR headsets as if they're
         | in the same category as phones or even tablets, when really,
         | they're closer to the same category as, say, racing rigs or
         | other highly hobby-specific products.
        
           | andybak wrote:
           | Exactly this. You can build and ship headsets and make a
           | profit if you're not also running a moonshot R&D division off
           | the same balance sheet.
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | "Failed" for some imagined mass market use case but doing very
         | well in lots of healthy niches.
        
       | yahoozoo wrote:
       | No thanks. Where are the XR eye contacts?
        
       | andrewinardeer wrote:
       | I wonder if there will be a Pixel branded headset next year?
        
       | carpdiem wrote:
       | It's interesting that there are essentially no pictures of the
       | actual device anywhere on this page (except for a lone image,
       | from the back of a user's head, where all you can see is the
       | strap and the edge of the front).
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | When you click through its front and center but I also found it
         | odd.
        
           | jayd16 wrote:
           | Aha, I see now that they're trying hard to hide the battery
           | pack wire. Almost all the shorts are showing the right side
           | of the device to hide the custom battery jack.
        
       | blensor wrote:
       | I think the most defining factor of it is that you have the play
       | store right there and can just run any normal android app too.
       | 
       | I even installed Termux via F-Droid today, and have a bluetooth
       | keyboard with touchpad connected to it.
        
         | zmmmmm wrote:
         | Sadly the whole open ecosystem is in grave doubt moving forward
         | since Google announced they are shutting down side loading :-(
        
           | blensor wrote:
           | That's something I am worrying about too
        
         | kridsdale1 wrote:
         | The Vision Pro has the equivalent of this as well. 20% of the
         | apps I run in it are "flatland" to use the snow crash term.
        
       | prophesi wrote:
       | This makes me miss Google Cardboard and Daydream.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | Cardboard still exists. Daydream was shelved. I might boot up
         | my Lenovo Mirage to see if it still has any functionality that
         | works. (I bought and never finished Virtual Virtual Reality
         | which is actually well regarded)
        
         | gs17 wrote:
         | I miss Cardboard too. That little magnet "button" was one of
         | the most creative ways to create an input method I've ever
         | seen.
        
       | 1970-01-01 wrote:
       | The average lifetime of a Pixel is 5 years of support. Will this
       | be discontinued by Android 18 or 19? How long will it actually be
       | usable before its e-waste? The letters X-R in Galaxy XR do not
       | stand for Xtended suppoRt.
        
       | binarynate wrote:
       | Although developers may be hesitant to embrace this out of fear
       | of Google eventually killing it off, an upshot is that if you
       | develop an XR app with Unity (and its XR Interaction Toolkit
       | library), it ends up being quite portable across different XR
       | devices / operating systems (e.g. Meta Quest, Pico VR, HTC Vive).
        
       | bsimpson wrote:
       | I wonder what the preferred ecosystem for VR will end up being.
       | 
       | Seems like there are now ~4 places to buy content (Oculus, Steam,
       | Google Play, Apple App Store).
       | 
       | If you buy on Steam, your catalog is reasonably portable over
       | time - you can buy another vendor's headset and still access your
       | catalog. The cost is that you have to bring a separate device
       | with you to host the catalog (unless/until the rumored Steam
       | Frame comes out).
       | 
       | Oculus and Play are both based on Android. I suspect there will
       | be e.g. guides on Reddit to sideload one vendor's catalog onto
       | the other vendor's device.
       | 
       | I can imagine a world where someone prefers to buy content in one
       | of these stores, to have everything in one place for portability
       | to future devices. You're already seeing this in computer gaming
       | with Steam (and Epic, Xbox, etc.).
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | They're really not that interchangeable. They're targeting
         | different hardware with different performance ratings and
         | control schemes.
         | 
         | Sure you can probably stream PC VR from steam to most of these
         | but it's not the same as on device.
        
           | andybak wrote:
           | > but it's not the same as on device.
           | 
           | It mostly is if your local wifi doesn't suck. I honestly
           | can't tell the difference in most cases.
        
           | bsimpson wrote:
           | I'm curious to see how true that is.
           | 
           | Will the Walkabout Mini Golf deployed to Play be meaningfully
           | different than the one from Oculus, or will they include
           | controller support for both ecosystems and ship a single APK
           | to any storefront that will take it?
        
           | gmueckl wrote:
           | I believe that it comes down to whether Unity allows merging
           | Horizon OS and Android XR support into a single Android
           | build. Right now, you can only have exactly one VR plug-in
           | active on a Unity build target IIRC.
        
         | Spunkie wrote:
         | I feel like Steam is the only legitimate option of the 4, the
         | rest are walled gardens.
         | 
         | I would have been very excited about this Galaxy XR development
         | a year ago but today I don't care to even scroll down the page.
         | Google's recent Android bullshit(walled garden, killing roms)
         | makes this a non-starter.
         | 
         | In fact I wonder if Android/Galaxy XR is secretly responsible
         | for these horrible changes to stock android. No chance of a
         | XR/real life adblocker ever becoming a thing if you can't
         | install your own software and/or the largest advertiser in the
         | world needs to OK it's existence.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | I think we have PC gaming and mobile gaming as too relatively
           | independent markets with only occasional overlap, and that's
           | probably the way VR's going to go. Someone is going to win
           | the mobile VR market (probably Meta given their significant
           | head start and lead, unless the Occulus lineup gets
           | sacrificed at the altar of AI), and the Steam VR ecosystem is
           | going to continue to be a thing.
           | 
           | I actually think the Steam VR ecosystem is the most durable
           | looking of the ecosystems at the moment with its few medium
           | size players. The other 3 all have the risk that their parent
           | companies could get bored and do something else, and I mean
           | it's made some money, but not the amount of money that is
           | guaranteed to keep any of them interested.
        
           | numpad0 wrote:
           | Feels like a Steam Market for Android/iOS is an
           | inevitability.
        
           | PaulHoule wrote:
           | The Meta Quest 3 has inside-out tracking and no cables so it
           | has a lot of appeal for experiences where you walk around the
           | room, particularly fitness games. I can view complex virtual
           | worlds from my PC with the link cable and it is is practical
           | to carefully move around the living room if I move the
           | furniture but then I have to play in the living room.
        
         | cryzinger wrote:
         | There's also PlayStation VR.
        
       | jayd16 wrote:
       | Has anyone kicked the tires on the software stack? How is the dev
       | experience for building an AR/Passthrough app?
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | The promise is "it's just OpenXR on Android" but I wasn't
         | granted access to a dev kit so I have no idea.
        
         | dijit wrote:
         | They've been _extremely_ tight with access to the ecosystem
         | thus far, I think because they were building for the release of
         | this product.
         | 
         | So, you won't get any real answers unfortunately.
        
       | Reubend wrote:
       | I really wish they pushed for a 120 hz refresh rate instead of
       | 90. IMO, this makes a huge difference for the immersion. I'm
       | guessing that they didn't want to have stutters if their chip
       | can't handle the higher FPS, but the refreshed Vision Pro will
       | have a significant advantage there.
        
         | cma wrote:
         | For 60hz video content at least I recommend AI interpolating to
         | 180hz, you can usually only do an integer multiple if not doing
         | pure motion vector interpolation, and then dropping or merging
         | every other frame to bring it to 90hz. Now that youtube is
         | doing 3d conversion they should also add this in, playing back
         | 60hz video at 72hz or 90hz is very juddery. Also hopefully the
         | youtube app or browser with fullscreened video will switch to
         | 90hz when playing 30hz content, but to save battery life they
         | may not.
        
         | zmmmmm wrote:
         | Sadly the weakest part of it is the old Qualcomm chip in it. It
         | can just manage to render the 4k displays but it's barely
         | capable of it even at 72 hz.
        
       | Razengan wrote:
       | Ah Samsung, the "We have Apple at home", I was wondering when
       | we'd see their copycat entry for XR.
        
       | zmmmmm wrote:
       | Kind of sad to see here on "hacker news" that 80% of the comments
       | are low effort cheap shots.
       | 
       | The interesting thing here is the core of it, being Android XR
       | and its deep AI integration, especially the spatial awareness.
       | Devices will come and go, but the OS will be the core that stays
       | and grows and evolves over time. I am very curious to know how
       | much of this is all exposed as OS foundations to build on vs a
       | monolithic app built to look like an OS by Google. This has been
       | a large part of Meta's mistake, where the OS is not providing
       | many of these fundamentals and any app you see doing it is mostly
       | re-inventing it themselves or relying on 3rd party tools like
       | Unity to do the heavy lifting.
       | 
       | The really impressive part of Vision Pro is actually how well
       | thought out the OS is underneath it, exposing fundamentals of how
       | 3D computing can work. Especially the part to do with compositing
       | together multiple spatial apps living together in the same shared
       | space and even interacting with each other (eg: one app can emit
       | a lighting effect that will shade the other's rendering).
       | 
       | I am very curious if Google has done this kind of foundational
       | work. Especially if that is designed (as they claim) from the
       | ground up to interface with AI models - eg: a 3D vision language
       | model can reason across everything in your shared space including
       | your pass through reality and respond to it. This would be truly
       | amazing but there's zero technical information I can see at this
       | point to know if Google really built these foundations or not
       | here.
        
         | jayd16 wrote:
         | > one app can emit a lighting effect that will shade the
         | other's rendering
         | 
         | I always felt this was such an outrageous burden to developers.
         | Its cute and all but really, who cares? I don't need one
         | desktop window to emit light on another window. Is that really
         | worth having to remake or modify every asset?
         | 
         | That said, all the work they did around laundering click and
         | gaze information for privacy was nice to see.
        
           | zmmmmm wrote:
           | > I always felt this was such an outrageous burden to
           | developers
           | 
           | but the point is that it's not a burden? You get it for free.
           | Unless you mean having accommodate in your app the fact that
           | someone else's might be "shading" it or similar.
           | 
           | I think it's amazing: you can have a real world light source
           | coloring a virtual object which is then a reflective light
           | source that bounces off to affect rendering of a second app.
           | And you don't have to do any of it, the OS is rendering all
           | of this. It's fully analogous to say, your OS supporting
           | transparency on a 2d window frame such that if I'm looking at
           | one window I can see the one behind it. But in 3d and
           | incorporating real world pass through it is so much more
           | complex.
        
           | kridsdale1 wrote:
           | If it makes fake things feel real to the user, it's worth it.
        
         | AshamedCaptain wrote:
         | > Devices will come and go, but the OS will be the core that
         | stays and grows and evolves over time.
         | 
         | Say that to my Google Cardboard SDK programs, or the Google VR
         | SDK ones, or Google Daydream ones.
         | 
         | You couldn't have chosen a worse topic on which to dump a
         | generic "ranting about Google abandoning projects is low effort
         | cheap shot", because Google does abandon VR projects (including
         | OSes and APIs, not just devices) every 5 years, almost like
         | clockwork. What I would call "a cheap shot" is to think that
         | this new fancy "OS" will be any different. In fact, I pity the
         | people who still consider jumping on this particular bus
         | _again_.
        
           | jamesbelchamber wrote:
           | Why on earth _did_ they abandon cardboard? It was really good
           | for getting VR in the hands of.. well, everybody - and it
           | worked quite well, too (for a bit of cardboard).
           | 
           | If they stuck to what they built originally they would be
           | dominating this segment right now.
        
             | ipsum2 wrote:
             | People tried Cardboard once and stopped using it.
        
               | asimovfan wrote:
               | Cardboard was great, and except a lack of software there
               | were no problems about it in my opinion. I remember
               | playing flight simulator on google earth and thinking how
               | much potential this had. I have a meta quest 2 now and it
               | is still not clear to me whether it is really that much
               | better than cardboard.
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | I think the lack of software that really took advantage
               | of the possibilities and cared about the limitations --
               | that wasn't simply a normal smartphone app with a bad UX
               | because the display was now on your face -- is the main
               | reason Cardboard disappeared.
               | 
               | It's like: imagine if you just run the original DOOM in
               | DOSBox on a phone and try to play it with the on-screen
               | keyboard -- that will obviously suck. Less obviously,
               | even something as simple as going from a NES controller
               | to an XBox controller can radically change experiences.
               | You have to really consider what the right way is to use
               | a system, and instead of doing that a lot of companies
               | clearly go for existing zeitgeist in design language.
               | (From memory as I heard it well before GenAI, real UX
               | experts react to such UI designs in much the same way
               | that artists react to Stable Diffusion).
               | 
               | Same goes for most VR stuff: There's some good games, but
               | selling it as that means headsets have to be priced as
               | consoles. That excludes the Android XR, and absolutely
               | excludes the Apple Vision Pro.
        
             | zmmmmm wrote:
             | Cardboard was what got me interested in the whole area so
             | it had it's value. But I think for about 90% of people it
             | had negative value because it presented such a poor
             | experience to the general user. To this day I ask people if
             | they'd like to try my VR headset and they will say "no I
             | tried that already, I know what it's like". Most of the
             | time they mean cardboard and it bears almost no resemblance
             | to the modern day experience. But 10 years later the
             | impression still sticks.
        
               | PaulHoule wrote:
               | I got my wife of all people to try a demo app on the MQ3
               | where cracks appear in your walls and your room gets
               | invaded by aliens and you have to shoot them with the bop
               | gun. She liked it.
               | 
               | But no way am I going to get her to sit through a cat
               | simulator or _Asgard 's Wrath 2_. She didn't like _Beat
               | Saber_ at all.
        
             | jsheard wrote:
             | There's VR and then there's VR, Cardboard was limited to
             | 3DoF tracking with a single button for input, which is not
             | even remotely comparable to what we think of as VR today.
             | Full 6DoF for head _and_ hands has been table stakes for a
             | long time, that 's what you need to make something like
             | Beat Saber or HL:Alyx work.
        
           | ncruces wrote:
           | Which basically means they worked on it, failed, and kept
           | trying. Glasses too.
        
           | zmmmmm wrote:
           | It's possible for sure that Google will abandon this and I
           | absolutely recommend anybody considering buying in do so only
           | on the value they can see and realise immediately, not on any
           | future promise.
           | 
           | But none of that takes away from the intellectually
           | interesting part of this : what is new here, what
           | possibilities does it open up? What implications does it
           | have?
           | 
           | The main reason it's less likely this gets abandoned is
           | because the spotlight in the the AI race is quickly moving to
           | how much contextual information you can pour in about the
           | user's ambient environment so that AI can actually do or say
           | something useful for the user. That pretty much means
           | glasses, and glasses mean you need a spatial computing OS to
           | drive the underpinnings that the whole thing can operate on.
           | Right now the technology for true AR glasses is still 2+
           | years out so the temporary placeholder for all that
           | functionality is these larger headsets. But line of sight to
           | all the pieces falling into place is there, so all the
           | players are effectively in a long game where they are
           | building up their ecosystems to be ready for the main game
           | when it does arrive.
        
         | ajdude wrote:
         | > Kind of sad to see here on "hacker news" that 80% of the
         | comments are low effort cheap shots
         | 
         | It's moreso that Google has used up all of its Goodwill a long
         | time ago for that 80%, especially in the vr field.
         | 
         | The only people that will put investment into this are the 20%
         | who don't remember every other time they've done the same
         | thing.
        
         | PaulHoule wrote:
         | If the Apple Vision Pro/Galaxy XR were viable than the MQ3
         | would be viable too, that is, the MQ3 does most of what the
         | those do and it does more because it has game controllers and
         | has decent applications and games, particularly fitness games.
         | I don't think most people will pay a lot for "high definition"
         | so getting people to pay almost 10x as much for something
         | that's maybe 2x better is a hard sell.
         | 
         | I bought an MQ3 because I was curious about AVP and thought,
         | "Hey I could get a six month head start on understanding XR
         | application development" and came to enjoy the platform.
         | 
         | My complaint about the MQ3 as a software developer is that it
         | has just 8 GB of RAM. With an AAA budget you can fit an AAA
         | game into it, but it is a challenge to "share an experience
         | with another VR user" based on photographic content and glTF
         | models and whether you use _Horizon Worlds_ or your own web
         | site using
         | 
         | https://aframe.io/
         | 
         | and WebVR. It is straightforward to view that kind of content
         | on a PCVR browser but to get it to work reliably on the Quest
         | you have to be systematic about resource sizes.
         | 
         | The software innovation is real but it builds on the past. The
         | MQ3 is basically an Android tablet you wear on your face. AVP
         | is a Macbook Pro you wear on your face, etc. If you can use
         | Unity Framework to make flat games you can use Unity Framework
         | to make XR games.
         | 
         | In the 1990s I was a VRML enthusiast and got laughed at by all
         | sorts of people who would say "So you're going to wheel down
         | the aisles of the shopping center and put things in your cart?"
         | Today we know that you can use a 2-d app store with VR
         | controllers and it's great, it's _great_ to use any web
         | application which meets the WCAG AAA standard. You can just
         | sideload phone and tablet applications into the MQ3 even
         | system-y things like Tailscale and it frequently  "just works".
         | 
         | I think Apple has thought through the "run 2d apps in a 3d
         | space" a bit better than Meta did but the late rollout of
         | controllers let MQ3 keep the lead in immersive apps. One of the
         | titles that is packed in with the Galaxy XR is _NFL PRO ERA_
         | which sent tingles up my spine on the MQ3 when I walked into a
         | frickin ' NFL stadium under the lights as the frickin'
         | quarterback -- it was amazing.
         | 
         | That kind of hardware can deliver that kind of experience and
         | Apple will have to catch up. Panographic photographic
         | experiences can also be amazing in VR and Samsung is promising
         | to deliver from Google and that's another selling point, but
         | many MQ3 and AVP viewers now are watching and sharing
         | panographic video on Youtube now.
        
       | jauntywundrkind wrote:
       | One thing I don't see mentioned either in the blog or in the
       | comments here is the camera/sensor system. It's such a necessary
       | part of the magic, for these things to work! It's such a combined
       | effort of sensors, processing power, and software!
       | 
       | Reminder that Vision Pro has a dedicated R1 chip, with a
       | blistering 256GB/s memory (with the actual cpu "only" having
       | 153GB/s)! That's as much as the quad-channel memory LPDDR5x Strix
       | Halo!
       | 
       | It'll be interesting to see how Samsung & then others fair at
       | this, and over time to see how much Google, Qualcomm or other
       | platform providers help versus leave device makers to fend for
       | themselves at sensor fusion and other _ultra_ realtime tasks
       | here. Whether the Snapdragon XR2+ Gen 2 here _can_ do enough, and
       | whether the software can make decent use of that hardware is so
       | TBD for this new ecosystem. It 's not super super clear who is
       | leading the charge to make it all slick and smooth. My default
       | assumption is Qualcomm likely holds a big chunk of the stack, and
       | sole-proprietorship of the stack like that seems like a real
       | threat to long-term viability of XR as a technology: like the
       | Valve Steam Deck so strongly exhibited, it's only through intense
       | cross-stack ownership and close collaboration (in the Linux
       | kernel in this case) that we see genuinely good products emerge.
       | 
       | Sensors, from Samsung's specs page:                 Two High-
       | resolution Pass-through cameras       Six World-facing tracking
       | cameras       Four Eye-tracking Cameras       Five Inertial
       | Measurement Units(IMUs) [commentary: whoaaa, thats a lot]
       | One Depth sensor       One Flicker sensor
       | 
       | As an aside, this sort of makes me want a device that just does
       | eye tracking. That there are _four_ eye tracking cameras here
       | seems wild! I 've mostly seem some pretty chill examples of
       | webcam based tracking; it'd be neat to see what kind of user
       | interface we could build if we really could see where people are
       | looking.
       | 
       | Also maybe worth reviewing what Android ARCore offers, as this
       | defines so much of what we get here. I'd love to see more depth-
       | based capture systems about in general: not just on the XR
       | displays but on regular devices too! To build a better library of
       | depth-having media. Apple's had LiDAR since iPhone 12 Pro (2020)!
       | There's some ToF on Android phones but close to zero lidar. We
       | also see tons of big fancy dual-sensor XR cameras out there, but
       | AFAIK nothing for phones! Just adding a second stereoscoping
       | camera on the back of phones would be so obvious, & do so much to
       | help the XR world! It feels like XR products are being left to
       | stand all on their own with no help from the rest of the mobile
       | device ecosystem, and it feels so obvious & unworkable.
        
       | DecentShoes wrote:
       | I'm not falling for that again. Google will abandon and "sunset"
       | Android XR in 2027 and this device will be bricked.
        
       | cubefox wrote:
       | Technical specifications here:
       | https://news.samsung.com/global/introducing-galaxy-xr-openin...
       | 
       | It seems the battery is external, like in the Apple Vision Pro,
       | but it's not clear. The display (OLED) resolution is also the
       | same.
        
       | internet2000 wrote:
       | It's interesting that Samsung's launching this, even though the
       | Vision Pro hasn't been setting any sales records. I'd love to be
       | a fly on the wall in the chasing-Apple department at Samsung...
       | surely they'd have the business process to stop projects when the
       | Apple target isn't successful.
        
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