[HN Gopher] Andre Gorz predicted the revolt against meaningless ...
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Andre Gorz predicted the revolt against meaningless work (2023)
Author : robtherobber
Score : 74 points
Date : 2025-10-16 15:21 UTC (6 days ago)
(HTM) web link (znetwork.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (znetwork.org)
| brudgers wrote:
| related? David Graeber's _On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs_
|
| https://davidgraeber.org/articles/on-the-phenomenon-of-bulls...
| dkdcio wrote:
| it's mentioned and linked a few paragraphs in so probably
| related
| Imustaskforhelp wrote:
| > The answer clearly isn't economic: it's moral and political.
| The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive
| population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger
| (think of what started to happen when this even began to be
| approximated in the '60s). And, on the other hand, the feeling
| that work is a moral value in itself, and that anyone not
| willing to submit themselves to some kind of intense work
| discipline for most of their waking hours deserves nothing, is
| extraordinarily convenient for them.
|
| Isn't this sort of similar to 1984 Like they had ways to
| provide enough but they wouldn't because then they would lose
| the power or something similar
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| As people get older, they often come to realize that any job that
| puts a roof over ones head, food on the table, and allows quality
| time with friends and family, is meaningful work.
| wayfwdmachine wrote:
| You know that this is bullshit right? We can all, regardless of
| our age, differentiate between meaningful and meaningless work.
| The fact that we need money to fulfil our obligations to our
| family, the bank or whatever it might be is completely separate
| from that. We can do meaningless jobs if we have to at any age.
| This does not make them meaningful. If a person, at any age,
| can choose between a meaningless and meaningful job - which do
| you think they would take?
|
| If they have to choose between a meaningless job and
| starvation?
|
| Cool. Now grow up and do some meaningful with your time. And so
| should I.
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| "Grow up do something useful with your time"?
|
| No further comment is needed.
| nickff wrote:
| I actually don't understand what you or the article mean by
| "meaningful and meaningless work", the article approaches an
| explanation in one paragraph, but they seem to have left a
| lot to interpretation by the reader. Perhaps you could
| enlighten me?
|
| > _" In a system where, as Gorz puts it, "we produce nothing
| of what we consume, and consume nothing of what we produce,"
| it is up to each and every one of us, connecting with others
| as a collective mass, to regain control over the meaning of
| work and over the determination of the needs that legitimize
| it. This is also the way for us to question the disastrous
| impact that the economy is having on the environment through
| its blind logic of profit and growth."_
| MDCore wrote:
| What you're describing is making work useful, not meaningful.
| More people nowadays are rejecting work that has no meaning,
| connection to identity and makes no use of their intellect,
| even if that work is a means of some income.
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| What I am describing is something called wisdom.
| messe wrote:
| Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.
| Imustaskforhelp wrote:
| What a great way to say to someone that their words
| could've had some value if they hadn't been too
| crude/maybe rude and said things in a different manner
| lol.
|
| I don't agree with the author's standpoint but I can
| kinda understand it but their passive aggression on the
| parent comment was just not needed and this clever way of
| saying it was kinda cool. I learnt something new to say
| but I am not sure how many ways it would be viable to say
| this
|
| Any other quotes like this that you might want to share?
| sjxjxbx wrote:
| Attitudes like this are why the wealth gap keeps growing.
|
| Maybe it's an age gap thing, but I've come to realize this
| attitude is one many boomers have because they're all doing ok.
| The rest of us need to course correct the mess they've left.
| The america they were born into might as well be a foreign
| country at this point.
| roadside_picnic wrote:
| This really downplays why people fight against "meaningless"
| work, it's not because of any philosophical grounds.
|
| The real problem with meaningless work is it tends to be
| _incredibly stressful_. Because the underlying work creates no
| value, even locally (existentially of course it 's all nil, but
| again, this isn't about that level of abstraction). The trouble
| with "no value" is that you also have no way know _how to_ or
| even _if_ you are doing your job "well".
|
| Your description sounds pleasant, but my real experience with
| meaningless work is that it results in long hours worked, very
| aggressive office politics, and consistent insecurity around
| the future of your job and income.
|
| The essence of "meaningless work" is captured very well in
| Kafka's _The Trial_. While their are brief moments where one
| can laugh at the absurdity of the situation, most of the time
| it sits in exact confrontation to the idyllic view of work you
| are proposing.
| almosthere wrote:
| Which is funny because the only meaningful work is the work
| that puts a roof over someone's head, food on someone's table
| or provides entertainment for so people can enjoy their friends
| and family to have quality time together.
| ike2792 wrote:
| There is some truth to this, but I think this way of thinking
| is overly simplistic. From a material standpoint, any job that
| can provide for you and your family's needs is "meaningful"
| since you can't really have a meaningful life without having
| basic needs provided for. From a spiritual standpoint, however,
| I think it is detrimental for someone to know that their job is
| largely pointless or achieves no tangible outcomes in the
| world. I think this same criticism applies to UBI and other
| "end of work" ideas, since a person with no job is likely to
| suffer from the same lack of purpose as someone who senses
| their job is BS. People are intrinsically wired to want to do
| work and make some kind of difference (even if that difference
| is just knowing that you helped manufacture 500 cars that day,
| dug a ditch that will be used for some useful purpose,
| whatever).
| mc32 wrote:
| If Covid conditions had gone on longer, decades, then output
| would have gone down, the treasury from which subsidies and
| government checks came from would have dried up. Even bullshit
| jobs add to GDP. Even socialist and communists had bullshit jobs
| to keep people busy.
|
| That said, the jobs I'd consider non essential are things like
| advertising, lifestyle, gambling/gsming and the sort. They add to
| the economy but I'd rather not have them.
| sentientslug wrote:
| What kind of jobs do you put into the lifestyle category?
| Depending on what you mean by that, I think that lifestyle jobs
| can have some non monetary value to society by increasing
| wellbeing.
| CrackerNews wrote:
| After reading this, it could be said that instead of work, we
| have abstracted it away. The capitalism of Marx dealt with the
| real work of productive factories. Neoliberal capitalism however
| outsourced work, and knowledge workers worked about work. The
| expertise remained for workers whose jobs were exported, making
| them overqualified. Instead of capitalism creating the conditions
| for socialism, capitalism creatively destroys the working class.
|
| Human capital, prescribed as a solution, stops to matter. The
| logical conclusion is the decreasing population and falling birth
| rates. Perhaps, basic income could provide relief for those
| affected. I doubt it would be successful in the long run as
| capitalism adapts to maintain the exploitative framework of
| "work". Instead of the intent of individuals directing the flow
| of the economy, it is wrested back by the central business and
| economic planners. What happens next would be speculation.
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