[HN Gopher] Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-shar...
___________________________________________________________________
Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the
United States
Author : Refreeze5224
Score : 237 points
Date : 2025-10-20 17:25 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (intelnews.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (intelnews.org)
| josefritzishere wrote:
| I think we all know whose fault that is.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the
| Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by
| EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.
| michelb wrote:
| Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch
| government, since 2011.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, so?
|
| Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a
| serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get
| around the United States and Israel when it comes to this
| kind of software. Of course the Dutch _should_ have rolled
| their own but give that we can 't even get our tax software
| sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30 years), had our
| digital notary services hacked and a number of other
| noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy' instead of 'build'
| was the right decision.
|
| It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim
| that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime
| minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible
| situation in our government right now, and this decision is
| one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand
| (unlike many other EU countries).
|
| This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in
| endless compromises.
| XorNot wrote:
| Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them
| it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take over your IT
| systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed
| engineers" who by necessity are locals and come help setup
| things on your own infrastructure.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| unless those engineers know about, and can shut off,
| backdoors in code, then their locality is meaningless.
|
| 10 guys in Northern VA are making those calls, not the
| forward deployed engineers and not your infra.
|
| palantir dials home at some point to verify a license,
| right?
| XorNot wrote:
| It does not. In fact most of the big enterprise software
| doesn't because enterprise won't allow it, or it's
| running airgapped.
|
| Enterprise software is licensed based on support
| contracts and audits. "trust" is actually more present
| because a large company or the government can't just
| vanish if they're in license compliance breach and can
| later be sued to recover costs.
|
| This is basically Oracle and IBMs business model: let
| people install whatever they want, then request a spot
| check if usage and discover the license breaches which
| can be rectified by buying more of whatever now that it's
| business critical.
| AndriyKunitsyn wrote:
| I have never been a big enterprise integrator, and I
| thought exactly like this.
|
| Then in 2024 the CrowdStrike BSOD screw up happened, and
| I was surprised to learn that no, not everything is
| airgapped. Apparently, businesses are okay with
| untrusted, unvetted, self-updating pieces of code that
| run in kernel mode.
| crimsoneer wrote:
| Palantir installing their kit on your on prem network doesn't
| give them anymore magical ability to exfiltrate data than
| installing Microsoft office would.
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| > To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services
| would be a vast understatement.
|
| Trump isn't trusted by any intelligence service, but seems to
| only publicly distrust his own ones.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is
| much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the
| US annexes it.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State
| Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world .
| . . wait, no we don't.
| Alive-in-2025 wrote:
| Russia and China still exist and are pre-eminent dangers. The
| US has gone crazy but we still need to work together to
| discourage wars related to invading taiwan or Europe. I am
| terrified the US won't come back to being an actual democracy
| that follows the rule of law. At the same time, we can just
| stop surveilling our citizens in the democratic free world.
| We can just decide to do that.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| The main danger is not Russia and China - it is us. Why?
| Because we actively stop big tech from developing and
| deploying cybersecurity solutions to protect billions of
| people. Why? Because we want us and Israel to be able to
| hack their systems, just not Russia and China. We want it
| both ways, to develop the most defensible and the most
| vulnerable system, and this is why we can never win. This
| self-incompatible ask will be our collective undoing.
|
| Also, if you think the US was a proper democracy, I have
| news for you - it wasn't. It has been an alternating two-
| party dictatorship that prevents the system from evolving
| beyond this system. In a real democracy, information from
| the voter would be maximized, the first result of which
| would be to transform it beyond a rigid two-party system.
| The voting system would not be first-past-the-post.
| Superior forms of voting such as Ranked Choice and Range
| Voting would not be banned as they are in numerous red
| states; they would be welcomed. People would not be denied
| the right to vote. Gerrymandering wouldn't be a thing.
|
| Wake up and see the truth for the darkness it is.
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| What is your point?
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| five eyes falling apart now seems like a "be careful what you
| wish for" situation where we'd start losing long-held
| alliances?
| anigbrowl wrote:
| I think you might be putting the cart before the (stampeding)
| horse here.
| dboreham wrote:
| Those alliances are language and culture-based. Bit stronger
| than one orange dipshit can disrupt.
|
| Sharing of information can be restricted though for various
| reasons, as has been suggested happened regarding Pearl Harbor.
| michelb wrote:
| The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and
| related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All
| internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access
| to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The
| Netherlands.
|
| So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive,
| but they still get the bulk of it.
| crote wrote:
| > our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and
| Microsoft Office/Azure
|
| And this is already being criticized over and over again. With
| various German government organizations now actively moving
| away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't _need_
| Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite
| surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at
| least be _discussed_ any time something needs an overhaul.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't
| figuring out what's necessary to run a government.
|
| People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want
| to risk having to learn something new. National security
| isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of
| training, after all.
| crote wrote:
| People in high places have assistants to operate Word for
| them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying
| is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of
| the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
| noir_lord wrote:
| I don't disagree but the world then and the world now are
| different places and people pushing for less of a
| dependency on american tech companies have a real chance
| to make _some_ headway with The Orange One(TM) sitting on
| his throne over the pond and Microsoft seemingly
| determined to make themselves (more) unpopular with
| techies generally not entirely sure what they are doing
| with Windows 11 but after 3 decades of running a
| microsoft OS I don 't have one in the house (in fairness
| windows hung in for gaming for the last 20 odd years,
| I've been linux for everything else since the millenium).
| jll29 wrote:
| It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs
| that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice
| as an example).
| immibis wrote:
| The bribes also make a difference.
| paganel wrote:
| That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany
| itself because of the Ramstein military base (and other such
| US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're
| independent!" it's just a futile game as long as the military
| US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.
| lovich wrote:
| Well if you were ever planning on evicting those bases
| you'd probably want to start by getting off of other
| infrastructure controlled by the owner of said bases,
| right?
| woah wrote:
| Even before getting off of MS Word, Germany would have to
| start by having a military capable of self-defense since
| leaving the country undefended would be very foolish.
| Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would
| hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party
| urging them to do this.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would
| hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party
| urging them to do this.
|
| I always found the framing on this funny. Europeans will
| talk about data sovereignty and decreasing reliance on
| the Americans and simultaneously cry foul when the
| Americans threaten to take their ball and go home.
| kergonath wrote:
| > Europeans will talk about data sovereignty and
| decreasing reliance on the Americans and simultaneously
| cry foul when the Americans threaten to take their ball
| and go home.
|
| I am sure that you are aware that there are more than one
| person in Europe, and most of the countries there being
| democracies, those people are allowed to have different
| opinions. They even have the right to express them, go
| figure!
| dijit wrote:
| Nah, you are more than welcome to take your ball.
|
| You won't because your administration is not stupid and
| knows what kind of soft power it gives them. But I
| really, sincerely, wish they would fuck off.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't
| cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
|
| > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive,
| not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dijit wrote:
| Are you crying foul because I'm telling you that you are
| welcome to take your ball?
|
| Talk about irony.
| lurk2 wrote:
| I made no indication as to my nationality in my original
| post and you responded with rudeness and hostility. This
| is illustrative of the type of person I was talking
| about. Your country would not exist if the Americans did
| not have bases in Europe. There are 26,000 people in the
| Swedish armed forces. You and everyone you know are
| either dead or speaking Russian in less than a year if
| the Americans leave.
| exe34 wrote:
| the offer was that the US would play ball and Europe
| would remain militarily weak and not start another world
| war. now that the Amerikka Oblast answers to mother
| Russia, the Europeans are having second thoughts about
| the match.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| The Dutch IRS just doubled down on M365 though saying they
| couldn't find any alternative. Strange detail though is that
| they were not on a cloud service until now. It's a bit of a
| weird time to decide to migrate to a US cloud service when
| most places are trying to get away from them.
| seper8 wrote:
| Bullshit, Belastingdienst has been on Azure for a very long
| time.
|
| Source: I was inside one of their offices for a few Azure
| trainings.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Source: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/239890/ook-fiscus-
| kan-geen-eu-al...
|
| "De Belastingdienst, met daarnaast ook de Douane en de
| Dienst Toeslagen, gebruikt momenteel eigen software voor
| kantoorautomatisering."
|
| This is M365 so it's not to do with Azure. It says they
| used their own office software before that was not cloud.
| That's what I referred to.
|
| I was not aware what they do with the more traditional
| cloud stuff but I'm not surprised they handed everything
| on a silver platter to the US though. The neolib party
| that has been in power for the last 20 years is super US
| centric and their previous prime minister is now acting
| as Trump's lapdog as general secretary of NATO.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| I'm not surprised, I used to work for a cloud SaaS
| provider, everything we had ran on Linux, everyone in the
| office ran on Macs and Google Docs.
|
| Then as we grew the finance team, they found that Google
| Docs couldn't handle the spreadsheets they needed, and even
| Excel on Mac wasn't compatible.
|
| So, the Finance team started running VM's where they could
| run Windows and native Excel. Then as they grew (in size
| and power) they found themselves using the VM so much that
| they started moving from Mac to Windows laptops. Then as
| our windows footprint grew, more and more departments
| started requesting Windows.
|
| When I left around 25% of the ~1000 person company was on
| Windows (almost all on the corporate admin side,
| engineering remained overwhelmingly on Mac), and the
| Windows support team was twice as large as the team that
| managed the Mac infrastructure.
| latchkey wrote:
| Similar experience. The best excuse was that Google
| Sheets wasn't secure enough for the head of finance to
| store his passwords, so need needed a password protected
| Excel sheet. He also got phished for about $50k.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I've been hearing about the German government moving to Linux
| from the days when I installed Red Hat Linux 7, I think
| https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-
| sec...
|
| We will probably have fusion power first.
| deepsun wrote:
| I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be
| full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off
| Microsoft.
|
| But even knowledge that your department must support non-
| Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some
| parts vendor-neutral.
|
| Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the
| grade matters.
| deepsun wrote:
| I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be
| full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off
| Microsoft.
|
| But even knowledge that your department must support non-
| Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some
| parts vendor-neutral.
|
| Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the
| grade matters a lot.
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| 'Some linux' is also useful for negotiating lower prices.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history
| infiltrating Russian networks and operations and operate a
| rather useful satellite listening post.
|
| That said, the current American administration probably doesn't
| see Russia as a threat.
|
| America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit
| harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right
| direction at least.
| netsharc wrote:
| It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow
| the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of the
| current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..
| mdhb wrote:
| That is _very literally_ the accusation that is being made
| for the record.
| jimbohn wrote:
| Somebody might even say that the administration sees russia
| as a useful tool to force europeans into paying a protection
| tol, not sure it's limited to this administration either
| hagbard_c wrote:
| > That said, the current American administration probably
| doesn't see Russia as a threat.
|
| That's just pabulum for the masses which you're better off
| not repeating so as not to appear so easily fooled. _Keep
| your friends close and your enemy closer_ [1] rings a bell I
| assume?
|
| [1] https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-
| close-...
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| No it's a summary of repeated pro-Russia statements and
| actions. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _That said, the current American administration probably
| doesn 't see Russia as a threat._
|
| Gee, you think? https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/pete-
| hegseth-tie-causes-...
|
| The entire Trump administration is indistinguishable from a
| deliberate -- and very successful -- attack.
| terminalshort wrote:
| If Dutch intelligence is failing to encrypt their data to the
| point that AWS / the US government could see it then they
| deserve to lose every byte of it.
| vanviegen wrote:
| Don't worry, these agencies seem to be appropriately
| paranoid. As an example: each intelligence worker gets three
| desktops PCs with various levels of security / airgapping.
| ohdeardear wrote:
| If they were truly paranoid, there would be a lot more they
| would do. I would call it naive, but then again, they are.
| throwaway48476 wrote:
| The most paranoid use typewriters.
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| and burn, bury, and store the remains in the basement.
| mettamage wrote:
| > The USA probably doesn't worry much
|
| No, if they did, they'd know about certain attacks or planned
| attacks earlier [1]. So they should but they don't.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-
| ziet/dp/946381... - not an affiliated link, just the first one
| I could find.
| woliveirajr wrote:
| Stuxnet comes to mind.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| Tensions in Venezuela and Dutch interests in the Caribbean.
| That's the explanation and its public posturing that likely
| doesn't reflect reality.
| crote wrote:
| The Dutch governments haven't exactly shown a lot of interest
| into their Caribbean links over the last few decades. The
| actions of the US regarding Venezuela are barely getting
| mentioned in the Dutch news, and the physical proximity to
| Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao is not even mentioned in passing.
| lenerdenator wrote:
| Everything's for sale. The Dutch were still buying natural gas
| from Russia as late as 2020 [0] despite 6 years of irregular
| warfare in the Donbas at that point and 12 years of South Ossetia
| in Georgia. Hell, they still might be through some sort of third-
| party reseller.
|
| Compared to the early years of the Donbas invasion, having a
| leader full of hot air is small potatoes.
|
| There's always room for spies to get what they want. It's just a
| matter of what that will be.
|
| [0] https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-
| infrastructure/blog-247-energy...
| crote wrote:
| The main reason for the Dutch dependence on Russian gas is the
| rapid shutdown of the Slochteren field for political
| reasons[0], while there weren't yet any LNG terminals available
| to import it from outside Europe. Considering Europe didn't yet
| view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising
| that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term
| strategy.
|
| [0]: The Slochteren field still has plenty of gas remaining. It
| was shut down due to pushback from the inhabitants of
| Groningen, whose houses were being destroyed by earthquakes -
| caused by soil subsidence as a result of gas extraction. If
| there were to have been a serious war with Russia at that
| point, The Netherlands could've trivially shut off all gas
| imports by scaling the extraction back up.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| The Dutch did extend Groningen for a time after the Russians
| invaded Ukraine.
|
| The problem with earthquakes is no one wants to be held
| accountable when a house is destroyed and people die.
| lenerdenator wrote:
| The point isn't about the potential for future production of
| natural gas or other petrochemical products from Slochteren.
| The point is that Europeans regularly participate in dealings
| with countries that act against their best interests on a
| regular basis, and that there's no real reason to believe
| that the Dutch will behave any differently with Trump.
|
| > Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine
| threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas
| was seen as a viable short-term strategy.
|
| That's exactly what I'm talking about. Everything should have
| told Europeans that Russia was reverting back to its old
| autocratic imperial ways. _Everything_. Ukrainian politicians
| and internal dissidents were being poisoned with dioxins and
| radioisotopes almost 20 years ago by Russian agents. Putin
| was stacking on more and more repression as the years went
| by. Hacking campaigns have been a constant problem in the
| West for decades with strong evidence to suggest the Russian
| government as a threat actor. The Russian military was
| building weapons specifically designed to counter NATO, which
| is the backbone of strategic defense in Europe. And that 's
| before you take into account things like the South Ossetia
| war which saw the Russians literally invade another country
| for wanting to move towards a Western sphere of influence.
|
| What was funding all of this? Purchases of Russian petroleum
| products by Europeans who were told over and over to stop by
| American allies, only to be caught with their flies unzipped
| when the tanks started rolling into the Donbas three years
| ago.
|
| I have no reason to think that the continent will behave any
| differently when faced with a Trump administration that would
| give them benefits to look the other way. The damage he could
| do to the continent is insignificant compared to what Putin
| did.
| fmajid wrote:
| Not to mention the downing of MH17, with 193 Dutch citizens
| aboard, by the Russians in 2016.
| IT4MD wrote:
| Smart move.
| aa_is_op wrote:
| Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing
| at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy Ukraine
| just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing
| intel with the US
|
| </sarcasm>
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| Where did you see this? I haven't read that anywhere.
| Refreeze5224 wrote:
| https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| thanks
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as
| an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia and
| China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.
| null_deref wrote:
| Why?
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| Different ideas on economics (socialism vs capitalism) and
| personal freedoms, lack of a shared cultural background
| anymore, etc.
| hjort-e wrote:
| What countries in Europe are not capitalist? Genuine
| question. And who has less personal freedoms in your
| opinion?
| twixfel wrote:
| This is just American nonsense. Literally every single
| country in Europe is capitalist. Socialism is the
| democratic ownership of the means of production. Nowhere do
| we have that in Europe. Frankly this is the real problem
| with America, about half the population are extremely
| poorly educated and yet extremely arrogant. A deadly
| combination, clearly, as it's led to the very sudden
| decline and fall of the American Empire.
| alpineman wrote:
| Europe is also capitalist. The last time I checked we had
| stock exchanges, corporations, and private property laws.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| I genuinely can't tell whether you are serious or trolling.
| Please tell me more about how Europe is socialist.
|
| Or what does that even mean to you. Is socialism when state
| exists? You are not first American to say that, and every
| time it happens, I'm genuinely surprised. (I mean,
| rhetorical question. I suppose that's what socialism is to
| you. And you are a part of a problem too, because you are
| growing up internally people who genuinely believe that
| socialism is good because it means healthcare and higher
| education. Words no longer have meaning to you in America.)
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| I meant more that most European countries seem to be on a
| path towards socialism with popular opinion being much
| more in favor of it than it is in the US (more in line
| with my cultural gap statement). If you consider
| democratic socialism socialism like I do, you have plenty
| of examples to pick from in government.
| jonathanstrange wrote:
| It's called social democracy, and much to the chagrin of
| real socialists this political tradition fully embraces
| capitalism.
| vanviegen wrote:
| > most European countries seem to be on a path towards
| socialism
|
| No, unfortunately the path in most European countries
| seems to be heading towards fascism, not socialism. We
| Europeans do tend to follow America in many things.
| jemmyw wrote:
| Those don't seem like the best reasons. European and
| American economics are pretty close. Europe isn't
| socialist, it has broader welfare system than the US, but
| the US has significant welfare systems as well.
|
| I've lived in the US and in Europe and the UK. Shared
| culture is still very significant. If anything, maybe even
| closer now than in the 90s.
|
| There's probably other reasons to think about the why and
| how of alliances than these.
| terminalshort wrote:
| You are correct in terms of economics and culture, but
| the UK has turned extremely authoritarian and jails
| people for social media posts frequently.
| twixfel wrote:
| The UK is nowhere near as authoritarian as the USA
| currently is so I don't understand your criticism. If
| anything it could bring us together!
| immibis wrote:
| I'm okay with a country jailing people for the crime of
| tweeting "we should murder all trans people". That
| probably should be a crime. Punishment should fit the
| crime though, so no more than a few weeks.
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| What about when they jail people for tweeting about how
| they don't want more immigrants?
| twixfel wrote:
| Literally never happened. You just are way too online if
| you believe that. Try visiting the UK sometime, you
| clearly never been and it's a great country.
| nickserv wrote:
| I'm genuinely curious, could you elaborate?
|
| Which European countries would you consider to be
| socialist? Or perhaps a better question is what makes a
| country socialist?
|
| Which personal freedoms are different in the US vs Europe?
|
| I've lived in both US and Europe, and have an opinion on
| this, but really would like your take.
| exceptione wrote:
| > socialism vs capitalism
|
| I guess this might be a matter of conditioning. You might
| live in an environment where concepts around the stem
| "social" has become a pejorative. In that way it is
| understandable that a term like "social democrat" is
| interpreted as "communist". There does not exist anything
| you imagine like that.
|
| What is different is that there is more opposition and
| cultural resistance to hyper capitalism. Think monopolies,
| corporatism, live-to-work, hustle-culture.
|
| With regards to any messaging about "freedom" in the USA,
| be vigilant, I do think people will be unpleasantly
| surprised about what has been transacted away. Personal
| freedoms are indeed extremely important, so zero
| Schadenfreude here. And yes, those lobby groups in the EU
| fail to get their stupid anti-encryption laws passed, but
| they keep trying, so it is frightening. Citizens and
| visitors of the Five Eyes have lost any privacy already,
| but we need all of us to fight back.
|
| TLDR: it is better to cooperate around common causes than
| to fight imaginary opponents. We are in the same boat.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Different ideas on economics (socialism vs capitalism)
| and personal freedoms, lack of a shared cultural background
| anymore, etc.
|
| In other words, you mean there isn't any country that you
| think could be an ally to the US?
|
| Can you name any?
| something98 wrote:
| Yes, you are the only one that thinks that.
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| I mean, without mentioning Russia or China, why should we?
| pohl wrote:
| Without a positive suggestion of who our allies should
| instead be, the question is incomplete. Surely you don't
| think we should have none?
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| I mean kind of? I feel like other than allies of
| necessity (to counter other great powers) there isn't
| really a point in pretending to be friendly to countries
| that are different to us in practically every way.
| Alive-in-2025 wrote:
| I'd say many people in the EU have similar views and
| ideas to about 2/3rds of the US (maybe I'm being generous
| on the US size), the half of the US that doesn't think
| the world is flat, that global warming might be
| happening, that following the rule of law is a good thing
| and we don't need to destroy the US to fix it.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Europe is more alike most Americans then you are to other
| Americans. Why pretend to be friendly with other states
| why not breakup. Cities in states should break apart from
| rural areas. We can all go back to tribal hunting groups.
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| People are not ready for that take yet.
| vanviegen wrote:
| Is the cultural difference really that big? Bigger, then
| say, the difference between NYC and rural Kansas?
|
| Me and my generation (born in the 80s) of Western
| European have grown up admiring the US. Listening to your
| music, watching your movies, wearing your brands. And we
| still do, mostly.
|
| The unease seems to have started some time after 9/11
| though. European countries joined various wars, that
| turned out to be mostly a grab for control of oil states.
| (WMD anyone?)
|
| And the US basically just stopped leading the way on
| international cooperation. Instead of cofounding the
| Internation Court of Justice, the US threatened to invade
| The Hague because of it. Instead of leading the way on
| averting climate change, having the tech, the global
| power and the money to do so, the US chose to block much
| of the initiative coming from elsewhere. And there've
| been many similar things.
|
| So yeah, to me at least the US feels kind of like an old
| friend that's been derailed. By 9/11, perhaps.
|
| I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love to come back to
| visit the US more often in the future. But with this
| administration, I just won't risk it. And also.. I just
| don't want to, at the moment. :-/
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| Honestly fair enough. And for the record, I do not want
| the US and Europe to stop cooperating, I just think that
| we have lost much of the intrinsic cultural reasoning for
| allying in the first place. But at the same time, your
| statement about the urban/rural culture gap kind of
| refutes my point anyways. Either way, we still have much
| bigger fish to fry with Russia and China on the horizon,
| so we definitely have more in common with each other
| government wise compared to the rest of the world.
|
| (Kind of) Changed my mind award <3
| hjort-e wrote:
| Yes. And the current US government not opposing Russia, it's
| actively helping Russia destroy democracies
| Yoric wrote:
| Well, if it helps, plenty of us Europeans don't think of the US
| as allies anymore. The current administration has made it quite
| clear.
|
| The only hope is that the next administration will be a bit
| less eager to cut ties with all its allies and might fix some
| of the self-inflicted damage.
| hkt wrote:
| The only actual hope is a common European defence policy (and
| industry) independent of NATO. The day Germany agrees to it,
| the dominos might fall, and the USA might realise what it has
| lost.
| immibis wrote:
| Germany where 20% of the population currently votes for
| AfD? I don't think they should get to have an army until
| they can figure out how not to use it for evil. They should
| have a lot of defence treaties and pay for them, though.
| MiiMe19 wrote:
| After that maybe we can cut our defense spending so we
| aren't covering for a bunch of other countries.
| Yoric wrote:
| Maybe you can, indeed.
|
| I mean, the US was paying for the ability to project both
| force and influence all over the world. Clearly, the US
| isn't willing to pay for either thing at the moment.
| LgWoodenBadger wrote:
| What the United States has just demonstrated is that it's
| idiotic to rely on them for anything fundamentally vital when
| its government can drastically and dramatically go manic/bi-
| polar ever 4 years
| jimbohn wrote:
| Pretty sure lots of smart-minded europeans would love a chance
| for europe to detach and be actually allowed to develop its own
| services sector. Seems to me the US wants europe to be a
| contributing ally when it suits, and an open market to dump
| services into when it doesn't
| Icingdeath wrote:
| Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? Seems to
| me its hard to maintain trust in these circumstances.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately?
|
| More than usual? Not really
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| Yes, Americans made the mistake of electing somebody that
| doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an
| election, among other things.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| > doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an
| election, among other things.
|
| Source?
|
| We do have evidence that he stepped down after his first
| term.
| mechatrocity wrote:
| Certainly not peacefully.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| Forgive me, I don't pay attention to the national news
| that much, what did I miss when Trump left the Whitehouse
| for Biden?
| bamboozled wrote:
| Good
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| > ...inter-agency relations between Dutch and American
| intelligence organizations remain "excellent".
|
| While I highly doubt that Dutch Intelligence is significantly
| more accountable tothat the American ones are, and therefore
| don't assume that any meaningful intelligence will actually be
| withheld (or at least, if is being withheld, it isn't because of
| the decision being discussed in this piece), BUT it is at least
| interesting that they made this announcement, which suggests some
| element somewhere in the European deep state is at least trying
| to pressure Washington in some way.
| ant6n wrote:
| "The European Deep State"?
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| You think they don't have one too?
| alliao wrote:
| so they say.. perhaps they detected leaks and just doing some a/b
| testing now
| escanda wrote:
| Trump is widely adopted around intel services; at least in Spain.
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