[HN Gopher] What's Behind the Mysterious Ancient Wall in the Gob...
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What's Behind the Mysterious Ancient Wall in the Gobi Desert?
Author : derbOac
Score : 80 points
Date : 2025-10-12 16:42 UTC (8 days ago)
(HTM) web link (news.artnet.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.artnet.com)
| Aspos wrote:
| Does it exist? I could not find a wikipedia article about it.
| This Gobi Wall can not be a part of what is known as the Great
| Wall of China as it was built 5 centuries later, no? Can someone
| explain?
| slwvx wrote:
| Ontology in the 21st century: no wikipedia page means non-
| existence :-)
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| It is at least a good _warning_ that you might be reading an
| AI hallucination, and should do further research.
| Mr_Minderbinder wrote:
| It is also a good warning that the people who typically
| create and edit Wikipedia articles in your local language
| do not find the subject interesting or are prevented from
| effectively documenting it due to the language barrier. I
| was doing research on the history of a certain illness and
| one physician I was investigating did not have an English
| Wikipedia article. Of course this does not mean he did not
| exist, I found him later on the Russian Wikipedia: https://
| ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0....
|
| I cannot find an article about this wall even on the
| Chinese Wikipedia but Baidu Encyclopedia has one: https://b
| aike.baidu.com/item/%E8%A5%BF%E5%A4%8F%E9%95%BF%E5%...
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| The Great Wall is just part of a larger series of
| fortifications in eastern Central Asia. One of the others is
| the less studied Medieval Wall System (MWS). The gobi wall here
| is a few hundred kilometers of one of the individual walls
| within the MWS, which as the name suggests is within the gobi
| desert in the modern country of Mongolia.
|
| And just to preclude the usual follow-up, these walls probably
| weren't major defensive fortifications intended to keep out
| armies of nomadic raiders. Their primary function was closer to
| airport customs, visible outposts that reinforce the boundaries
| and laws of the state.
| mmooss wrote:
| From a/the related paper:
|
| https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087
|
| > The Medieval (10th to 13th century CE) Wall System (MWS)
| stretches approximately 4000 km across extensive regions in
| northern China and Mongolia, as well as shorter sections in
| Russia (Figure 1). It represents one of the most extensive
| yet enigmatic architectural features in East Asia. In recent
| years The Wall Project, funded by the European Research
| Council, as well as other projects, has extensively studied
| and published on different sections of this wall line. Such
| research demonstrated that this extensive system of earthen
| walls was built by different empires from c. the 10th to the
| 13th centuries CE [1,2,3,4,5,6]. Among the different sections
| of the MWS, the wall section located in the southern
| Mongolia's Gobi Desert is the least explored and still poorly
| understood. This study focuses on a 321 km-long segment of
| this wall line, located in Omnogovi province of Mongolia,
| that we refer to as the Gobi Wall (Figure 2).
| Aspos wrote:
| I don't know, looks like hunting walls to me. When chased,
| animals naturally follow such walls, however insignificant
| they are (sometimes they follow even a line drawn on the
| grass), and get onto predictable trajectory leading them into
| ambush.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. Nothing about
| these walls resembles desert kites that I can see, except
| that they both use natural materials in an arid climate.
| Aspos wrote:
| As a child growing up in Central Asia, I saw people
| piling up stones, sticks, and other debris along the
| ancient lines people used to control herds and wild
| animals. The ones built for hunting often had a narrow,
| funnel-like end, while those meant for managing herds
| could take on almost any shape. One of the photos in that
| article looks exactly like the walls I remember from my
| childhood.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Yeah, but it's an overkill 2m wide and doesn't have a
| funnel, nor does it use the topography well for kite. And
| the fortification is a 100m+ square.
|
| Like I said, the materials are similar. The design isn't.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| That article ends so abruptly and lacking anything you want to
| know (how was it used for non-defensive purposes?) that I almost
| wonder if it was written by AI. Hard to tell bad writers from
| computers anymore.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Computers were, after all, trained on bad writing
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Adblock on Chrome isn't working anymore, given the huge luxury
| watch ads every three paragraph I can't read it as anything but
| content slop to get ad impressions. Doesn't need to be AI, slop
| has existed for decades.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| That was honestly what made me finally switch back to Firefox
| after what must have been close to two decades.
| ungreased0675 wrote:
| So, what was it for? The article sparked my interest then just
| ended.
| gnatman wrote:
| I'm guessing this is the source paper?
|
| > https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087
|
| >> This study challenges the perception of such structures as
| being purely defensive, revealing the Gobi Wall's multifunctional
| role as an imperial tool for demarcating boundaries, managing
| populations and resources, and consolidating territorial control
| jpollock wrote:
| I seem to remember reading somewhere that low walls like this
| weren't really about defense, they were about funneling travelers
| (with carts) to the tax collectors.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| What would the point be, in the Gobi desert?
|
| The structure of traveling through that is that you follow the
| silk road between a bunch of major cities built around oases.
| It's not necessary to divert anyone with walls - the fact that
| they need to drink, and that they won't be willing to wander
| off into the desert, get lost, and die, is sufficient. You
| don't move people to the tax collectors. You move the tax
| collectors to them.
| manwe150 wrote:
| Unless maybe the point of the wall was to provide the road
| marker itself that guided folks to the nearest survival
| point? The article mentions there were frequent wells and
| encampments, but so few other details
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > The article mentions there were frequent wells and
| encampments
|
| They aren't arguing that wells were dug to support the wall
| garrison. They're arguing that, because the wall needed to
| be garrisoned, it could only visit places where there were
| or could be wells:
|
| >> our spatial and ecological analysis demonstrates that
| the distribution of local resources, such as water and
| wood, was critical in determining the route of the wall and
| the placement of associated garrisons and forts.
|
| ( https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087 )
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around the
| Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as you're
| painting it.
|
| In any case, the traditional routes for the northern silk
| roads passed south of these walls through the Hexi corridor,
| at least until the Mongol period when many of them rerouted
| through the Orkhon valley north of the Gobi. Separate from
| the silk roads, there was a lot of trade/conflict between the
| northern Chinese states and the various Mongolian polities
| like the Liao. Managing that was both economically and
| existentially necessary for the border states like the xixia.
|
| Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of
| the other way around. More practical that way.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around
| the Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as
| you're painting it.
|
| Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article
| show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words
| say this:
|
| >> large sections [of the wall] were built near sand dunes
| that would have acted as additional barriers
|
| > Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead
| of the other way around. More practical that way.
|
| That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you
| want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax
| collectors at the oases all travelers must visit.
|
| If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you
| station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit.
|
| These are both cases of moving the tax collector to the
| people being taxed. And in both cases, there's not an
| alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the
| tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What
| would be in it for them?
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article
| show the region as being easily that extreme, and the
| words say this
|
| It's not. The Gobi is filled with marginal seasonal
| grazing lands, though certain areas are more valuable
| than others. It's undergone additional desertification in
| recent centuries as well. That's
| different in no way from what I stated above. If you want
| to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax
| collectors at the oases all travelers must visit.
|
| People in the Gobi, particularly the northern Gobi, don't
| always (or even usually) travel by way of journeys
| between oases. That style of travel is more
| characteristic of silk roads and the deserts to the
| southwest like the Taklamakan. If you
| want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station
| the tax collectors in the markets they must visit.
|
| This wall doesn't run through market areas. The markets
| involved would have been farther south in the tangut
| heartland, southwest in the hexi corridor, or north in
| Mongolia proper. "Markets" is also a bit of a misleading
| term here because the Mongolian side of this trade would
| have been a diffuse network of nomadic groups rather than
| people inhabiting fixed cities on a landscape.
|
| I'm not emphasizing this for pedantic reasons. This wall
| is generally thought to have been intended as a very
| literal manifestation of the boundaries of the state and
| this whole area is what we call a borderlands. Western
| xia itself is a bit of a borderland in its entirety, and
| probably found it pretty useful to lay out a very
| physical manifestation of their power everyone could see.
| That's not the only reason something like this would have
| been built, but it's a relevant one.
|
| Medieval states were constantly negotiating the
| boundaries of power before everyone accepted the modern
| notion of statehood. Physical walls were a particularly
| popular way to make that point in what's now China.
| And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't
| direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they
| won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for
| them?
|
| The parts you're responding to were speaking more
| specifically about the mongol period, which I know more
| about. This particular borderland is a somewhat different
| place a couple centuries earlier.
|
| But anyway, the mistake here is thinking in a modern
| transactional framework. That's not how (mongol-era)
| Mongolia worked. Hierarchy was based on _personal_
| loyalty networks. A vassal provided loyalty, which could
| include taxes. Disloyalty was swiftly punished if the
| lord could, or the loyalty arrangement was renegotiated
| to something more agreeable. If it sounds like a fragile
| way to run a continent-spanning empire, you 've
| identified one of the issues the Mongols faced
|
| Similar things existed outside Mongolia as well, but
| Wikipedia's going to be as good or better than what I
| know on the subject.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > I'm not emphasizing this for pedantic reasons. This
| wall is generally thought to have been intended as a very
| literal manifestation of the boundaries of the state and
| this whole area is what we call a borderlands. Western
| xia itself is a bit of a borderland in its entirety, and
| probably found it pretty useful to lay out a very
| physical manifestation of their power everyone could see.
| That's not the only reason something like this would have
| been built, but it's the most relevant one.
|
| I have no problem with that. But it's unrelated to the
| idea I criticized, that the purpose of a wall like this
| is to funnel travelers with carts into a taxable
| chokepoint. A wall is not useful for that purpose. This
| wall is even less useful for that purpose than average.
|
| I will note that the paper seems to disagree with you on
| what is generally thought of the wall:
|
| >> This study challenges the perception of such
| structures as being purely defensive, revealing the Gobi
| Wall's multifunctional role as an imperial tool for
| demarcating boundaries
|
| But in this case, I'm inclined to believe you over the
| paper.
|
| (I am curious about the fact that the wall was manned.
| That has to have been really expensive; it seems like it
| wouldn't be worth it for a mostly symbolic wall?)
|
| > It's not [that extreme]. The Gobi is filled with
| marginal seasonal grazing lands
|
| That doesn't really matter to the question of whether
| travelers attempting to cross it risk getting lost and
| dying if they go offroad. They're not traveling with a
| herd of sheep. They can't eat the odd patch of dusty
| grass, or find water.
|
| And when the article notes that the wall seems to have
| been constructed in a way that specifically takes
| advantage of local sand dunes, that also suggests an
| inhospitable environment to me.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| The paper generally agrees with what I'm saying. There's
| some impedance mismatch because I'm doing a sort of
| translation I do when explaining things to tech coworkers
| rather than using the words I'd use for another
| archaeologist, but quoting their conclusion:
| This research supports a broader reconceptualization of
| medieval frontiers--not merely as static defensive
| barriers, but as dynamic administrative infrastructures.
| The Gobi Wall exemplifies a mode of Xi Xia statecraft
| that used architectural investments to manage re-sources,
| population movement, and territorial boundaries. This
| understanding aligns with theoretical models framing
| frontiers as zones of control and interaction, rather
| than rigid dividing lines [57], and invites broader
| comparative analysis across Eurasian contexts.
|
| Basically, I'm saying "what many people think in private
| discussions" vs "this is what's written in the most cited
| works". Those can diverge pretty far in small fields like
| Mongolian archaeology. That doesn't
| really matter to the question of whether travelers
| attempting to cross it risk getting lost and dying if
| they go offroad. They're not traveling with a herd of
| sheep. They can't eat the odd patch of dusty grass, or
| find water.
|
| One slightly fun perspective is that livestock are mobile
| refrigerators. Living like that is actually why nomads
| are able to do well in Mongolia.
|
| As for getting lost, basically not an issue for various
| reasons. More of an issue for non nomads.
| smogcutter wrote:
| If only you could go back and tell them what a waste those
| walls are! I'm sure the Mongolians would value your
| expertise.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I'm not criticizing the Mongols ("Mongolians"?) for
| building a pointless "line up here" wall. I'm pointing out
| that that's not something they did, and criticizing
| jpollock for suggesting it was.
| smogcutter wrote:
| > I'm pointing out that that's not something they did
|
| Well that settles it then!
| Larrikin wrote:
| Source?
| fred_is_fred wrote:
| Any time you build a series of forts (for any reason) you end up
| creating commerce and trading. You also end up many times with
| towns. Even if it was not the original intent. Although the
| article seems to just randomly end, I assume that's where it was
| headed.
| flowerthoughts wrote:
| There's a lot of application of methods in this paper.
|
| However, they're mostly saying there wasn't much in terms of
| artifacts to be discovered. And it's a wall made from unpolished
| stones, sand and maybe some wood. There' basically nothing here.
| They find some coins from 160 CE and then go on to attribute the
| wall to being built in the 10-13 CE centuries, as was already
| established.
|
| > This research supports a broader reconceptualization of
| medieval frontiers--not merely as static defensive barriers, but
| as dynamic administrative infrastructures. The Gobi Wall
| exemplifies a mode of Xi Xia statecraft that used architectural
| investments to manage re-sources, population movement, and
| territorial boundaries. This understanding aligns with
| theoretical models framing frontiers as zones of control and
| interaction, rather than rigid dividing lines [57], and invites
| broader comparative analysis across Eurasian contexts.
|
| Yeah, they _maybe_ used a big wall they had built for defensive
| purposes to charge customs.
|
| There are no answers here. I'm sure it's interesting for other
| archaeologists to study the methods used, but there are no
| interesting rigid conclusions to be had from reading it.
|
| 1. https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087
| decimalenough wrote:
| Well, that was pretty anticlimactic. Suggest you go read about a
| more interesting abandoned city in the Gobi Desert instead:
|
| > _Built in 1032, the city thrived under the rule of the Tangut-
| led Western Xia dynasty. It has been identified as the city of
| Etzina, which appears in The Travels of Marco Polo. ..._
|
| > _According to a legend of the local Torghut population, in 1372
| a Mongol military general named Khara Bator was surrounded with
| his troops by the armies of the Ming dynasty. Diverting the Ejin
| River, the city 's water source that flowed just outside the
| fortress, the Ming dynasty denied Khara-Khoto water for its
| gardens and wells. As time passed and Khara Bator realised his
| fate, he murdered his family and then himself. After his suicide,
| Khara Bator's soldiers waited within the fortress until Ming
| troops finally attacked and killed the remaining inhabitants._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khara-Khoto
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| Khara Khoto appears to be on or near the extension of the 'Gobi
| Wall' into present day China, presumably as part of the same
| system.
|
| https://cms.interestingengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
|
| The name 'Gobi Wall' seems to refer to the section of the wall
| within Mongolia. Its garrisons and forts are numbered from G01
| at the western end of the section, where the wall crosses the
| border.
|
| https://cdn.grid.id/crop/0x0:0x0/700x0/photo/2025/05/31/land...
|
| Khara Khoto is about 100 km WSW of G01.
| forshaper wrote:
| > a Mongol military general named Khara Bator
|
| wait is this dude's name basically 'Black Knight'?
| decimalenough wrote:
| Even better, it's Black Hero.
| rjknight wrote:
| Surely the answer is "the other side of the Gobi Desert".
| mattmaroon wrote:
| Why did the chicken cross the Gobi wall?
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