[HN Gopher] Lost Jack Kerouac story found among assassinated maf...
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Lost Jack Kerouac story found among assassinated mafia boss'
belongings
Author : rmason
Score : 91 points
Date : 2025-10-15 02:44 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sfgate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sfgate.com)
| rmason wrote:
| I am a life long fan of Jack Kerouac and thought will the
| biographies written about him every significant fact about his
| life was known and I am a bit gobsmacked.
|
| Massachusetts, the state of his birth claims Kerouac as their own
| and Florida where he lived at the time of his death claims him as
| well. Never seen San Francisco claim him as one of their own
| before. I think Paris would have the better claim if they were to
| make one.
| dvh wrote:
| "If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will
| claim me as a German and France will declare me a citizen of
| the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that
| I am a German, and Germany will declare that I am a Jew." --
| Einstein
| habosa wrote:
| SF seems to claim the Beat movement as a whole. There's a
| museum dedicated to it and the area around it has multiple
| landmarks which play into that as well (City Lights, Vesuvio).
| I never really considered before if that was fair.
| cm2012 wrote:
| I read On The Road but really, truly came to hate the
| characters. Dean Moriarty is so evil and Sal is so stupid and I
| feel like this never comes full circle.
| zabzonk wrote:
| The characters are seen from Sal's perspective, and I will
| admit he is not the sharpest pencil in the box (I think
| Kerouac, who was quite smart, realises this). I wonder what
| OTR written from Dean's point of view would be like?
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Apparently Neal Cassady was not a very good husband or father
| either -- judging by some of the retrospectives/interviews
| I've seen on YouTube.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| They're interesting because of it though. Let's just say
| they're "evil" in the ways I don't care about.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Dean Moriarty physically abuses multiple women, and
| impregnates and abandons multiple women in terrible
| circumstances with no regard for his children's welfare.
| And many other crimes. Sal glosses over them and still
| idolizes him.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| If retweets aren't endorsements, artistic/literary
| depictions aren't meant to promote the person or
| personages being so portrayed.
|
| The map is not the territory anymore than the mapmaker is
| God. Holding a mirror up to society does not make one
| Narcissus.
|
| For what it's worth, Socrates wasn't very popular in
| polite society of his time and place either, but rather
| reviled and given an ultimatum: repudiate your
| interrogatory work of our society, or die in exile. He
| chose the latter on his own terms via quaffing hemlock,
| and he went down in infamy.
| pfdietz wrote:
| Since this was written before 1978 and never published, it's not
| protected by copyright, yes?
| jt2190 wrote:
| Writing is protected by copyright the instant it's written.
| pfdietz wrote:
| That's true _now_. It wasn 't true when this was written.
| Back then, US copyright depended on publication and
| registration.
| jt2190 wrote:
| I'll leave this for you to parse.
|
| > SS 303
|
| > Duration of copyright: Works created but not published or
| copyrighted before January 1, 1978
|
| > (a) Copyright in a work created before January 1, 1978,
| but not theretofore in the public domain or copyrighted,
| subsists from January 1, 1978, and endures for the term
| provided by section 302. In no case, however, shall the
| term of copyright in such a work expire before December 31,
| 2002; and, if the work is published on or before December
| 31, 2002, the term of copyright shall not expire before
| December 31, 2047
| velcrovan wrote:
| So you're right in that it was retroactively protected by
| copyright the moment it was written, but, without more
| information than this, it seems at least possible that
| the copyright on this work has now expired.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| doesn't seem possible.
|
| It says that it should follow 302 as if it was published
| in 1978 if it was not heretofore copyrighted, and it
| wasn't, and it should follow section 302 which starts
| with
|
| "Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978,
| subsists from its creation and, except as provided by the
| following subsections, endures for a term consisting of
| the life of the author and 70 years after the author's
| death."
|
| seems like it should be out of copyright in 2039.
| pfdietz wrote:
| That's useful, thanks.
| mkovach wrote:
| Ah, how wonderful, to stumble upon lost Kerouac like this, tucked
| away not in some Yale archive but in the collection of Paul
| Castellano of all people, as if the road had detoured briefly
| through the Five Families. That it reads like a missing chapter
| from On the Road makes the find all the more mythic, like a
| Polaroid from a dream you forgot you had.
|
| But this, for some reason, reminds me that Kerouac was also a
| devoted baseball mind. Not just a fan, but a proto-fantasy league
| commissioner before the term existed, meticulously tracking
| invented teams and players in private box scores. Kerouac, a
| fantasy baseball writer.
|
| And he wasn't alone: Corso batted lines like fastballs,
| Ferlinghetti cheered from the dugout of City Lights, and
| Ginsberg, ever the cosmic catcher, enjoyed the sport. Baseball
| wasn't a pastime but a parallel Beat narrative, complete with
| innings, errors, and the occasional poetic balk and haiku.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| > Ginsberg, ever the cosmic catcher, enjoyed the sport.
|
| I'm glad to know Ginsberg's interests extended beyond lobbying
| to legalize child rape
| pessimizer wrote:
| Not far beyond. I'm old, so second-hand it seems that the
| entire reason he toured to do readings (at least in the 80s
| and 90s) was to stay with locals who had young male children.
| I know two horror stories myself.
|
| It was sort of a hippie/counterculture/futurist/Berkeley
| thing to let pedophiles openly operate and attack anyone as
| nosy lame perverts who would accuse them of being a problem,
| even after multiple arrests. See the Breendoggle.
| abdulhaq wrote:
| When I was a physics student at Oxford in 1983-86 I was a
| voracious reader and the Beats figured in that. Ginsberg
| travelled through Oxford for a day or two and gave some
| street performances. His nephew (Vincent?) was travelling
| with him, playing guitar IIRC. I must admit, I had my
| concerns at the time.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| There was a similar attitude in some French intellectual
| circles in the seventies and eighties.
|
| For example I know Simone de Beauvoir and Sartre were
| involved.
|
| Having known several victims of CSA and some of their
| abusers, I think many people would be surprised at the
| amount of effort and planning that goes into ensuring
| access to a pool of potential victims. Abstractly it's a
| supply chain problem and is treated as such by the abusers.
| throaway1988 wrote:
| Similar to an addict, you need to know you have your
| supply at hand...
| bitwize wrote:
| > For example I know Simone de Beauvoir and Sartre were
| involved.
|
| Most famously, Michel Foucault.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Any link to Simone and Sartre?
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| > The signatories to the January 1977 petition included
| Gabriel Matzneff (the petition's author), Jean-Louis
| Bory, Pierre Hahn [eo; fr; ia; pt], Jean-Luc Hennig [ar;
| fr; ru], Guy Hocquenghem, Francoise d'Eaubonne, Rene
| Scherer, Pierre Guyotat, Louis Aragon, Francis Ponge,
| Roland Barthes, Simone de Beauvoir, Philippe Sollers,
| Patrice Chereau, Bernard Kouchner, Francois Chatelet,
| Gilles Deleuze, Felix Guattari, Jean-Paul Sartre, and
| Jean-Francois Lyotard.[6]
|
| > Notably, the signatories did not include Michel
| Foucault,[6]: 16 Marguerite Duras, Helene Cixous, or
| Xaviere Gauthier [fr; sv], who all refused to sign the
| January petition.[5]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petitions_against_ag
| e-o...
|
| This was in defense of people arrested for sexual abuse
| of children 12-13.
| lukan wrote:
| German Wikipedia conveniently left that part out and in the
| english Wikipedia you have to scroll quite a bit to read it
| mentioned.
|
| "I said I've had many young affairs, [with those who were]
| 16, 17, or 18."
|
| Still, it matters a bit to me, whether we are talking about
| consensual things or not. 16 year olds might be naive, but
| they are also not small children and usually capable of
| saying no. (Body language no, is also a no). So do those
| horror stories involve ignoring a "no" from Ginsberg
| towards a minor?
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I'm not sure this is the kind of debate you want to have.
| lukan wrote:
| Oh, I certainly don't want to debate what counts as
| abuse. I just like to form an opinion on Ginsberg, so
| some clarification what exactly "horror stories" mean
| here, would be helpful.
| throaway1988 wrote:
| pedophiles like PREpubescents. Not 16 year olds.
| Different terminology & psychology.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I am not debating what counts as child sexual abuse with
| you. I also doubt this is a hill you want to die on.
| throaway1988 wrote:
| who said i'm debating anything? there are actual terms
| for these things you know.
| justinator wrote:
| Ginsberg was a member of the North American Man/BOY Love
| Association.
|
| Why are you defending this man? What if we said he
| sexually exploited teenagers when he was in his 50's --
| is that better?
| throaway1988 wrote:
| i'm not! you are immediately accusing people of
| supporting child abuse based on literally nothing.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small
| children and usually capable of saying no._
|
| You can't generalize the ability to say no to 16 year
| olds. You also can't ignore the position of power a
| famous person might be in, or what grooming might have
| occurred (which is being alleged up thread). Morally, I
| hope this is obvious. Even legally, many jurisdictions
| have laws that recognize these nonviolent sexual offenses
| as illegal.
| lukan wrote:
| If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I
| would say education failed him very much in the first
| place.
|
| "You also can't ignore the position of power a famous
| person might be in"
|
| And no, I don't. I am also not a fan of grownup men going
| after boys in general.
|
| Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year
| or 8 year old boys and how they approached them.
|
| "horror story" is pretty strong language and implies
| certain things to me.
|
| Precise use of language matters. Case in point, I am at a
| unconventional gathering right now and things happened,
| that were communicated as rape... so people wanted to
| take drastic action quickly. What happened? A "tantra"
| teacher giving massages and "solving blockages" of young
| (adult) women in their genital areas.
|
| So they said yes to a massage and "healing" in general,
| but never said no afterwards, they just didn't realized
| what was happening. They met later and shared their
| stories and then things came to light.
|
| So, definitely sexual abuse, but rape?
|
| Well their body was raped in a way as sexual things
| happened that they did not consent to. But the right term
| here is rather sexual abuse I believe. Because to me and
| most others, rape implies penetrating with the penis
| against their will. If you use the most strong word for
| everything, what word will you use for actual violent
| forced sex? That just creates confusion that can has
| drastic consequences.
|
| (As it did, with people wanting to take drastic violent
| action assuming something way worse. In the end the guy
| was banished, but no criminal charges were brought up as
| that would have required the victims going to police
| which they didn't wanted to).
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Can we please not advocate in defense of statutory rape
| of minors here. Your discussion is consideration of
| defense of a predator's documented acts. He gets plenty
| of whitewashing support already.
| lukan wrote:
| Can you show, where exactly I supposedly did that?
|
| Otherwise please don't make such a claim about me.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| This is a disingenuous request. We can point to any
| sentence we think illustrates it and you will simply say
| "no that is not what it means" and we're right back where
| we started.
|
| The other person (and I) believe what you wrote
| whitewashes the issue. You obviously think it does not.
| There is nothing we can point to that would make you go
| "oh damn you're right."
| lukan wrote:
| So I should just accept the defamation that I justified
| child abuse?
|
| Because I did not.
|
| My whole point the whole time was and is, that there is a
| big difference to me between grown men going after 16
| year olds and 8 year olds.
|
| Is it the same to you?
| mmooss wrote:
| > Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year
| or 8 year old boys and how they approached them.
|
| Agreed.
|
| > If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I
| would say education failed him very much in the first
| place.
|
| It's not a matter of education. Mature adults have
| trouble saying no (to all sorts of things) depending on
| the social situation, and the power relationship is a
| significant factor, which weighs against 16 year olds who
| not only have little power but are raised to trust and
| obey adults. Look at all the people who couldn't say 'no'
| to their institution supporting rapists. Consider adult
| female _soldiers_ , for whom sexual assault is a
| relatively widespread problem (at least in the US
| military).
| throaway1988 wrote:
| This is the difference between being attracted to
| prepubescents, and being attracted to minors who have
| undergone puberty:
|
| Prepubescents do not have the physical sexual maturity
| that human beings should be attracted to. By definition.
| Being attracted to them shows a profound disturbance in
| normal brain function.
|
| Being attracted to a 16 or 17 year old shows much, much
| less deviation from normal human sexual behaviour. Again,
| by definition. Going through puberty = becoming sexually
| mature. Now, notice how i said "being attracted to" not
| "hanging around the local school trying to pick up
| minors." It's illegal for a reason. Kids need to be
| protected from much older adults who know how to exploit
| and abuse them.
| justinator wrote:
| _> 16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not
| small children and usually capable of saying no. (Body
| language no, is also a no). So do those horror stories
| involve ignoring a "no" from Ginsberg towards a minor?_
|
| Bruh you're justifying statutory rape due to a highly
| unjust power imbalance.
|
| Also have you met a 16-year-old in real life? They are
| children.
| lukan wrote:
| I am not justifying anything, I merely said there is a
| _difference_ to me and I like to know more before forming
| a final opinion, see my shared anecdota as for why.
|
| The post above where I replied literally said: "young
| male children"
|
| But are 16 year olds really "young male children"?
|
| I don't think so, but stating it like this makes it a
| much, much worse accusation against Ginsberg in my eyes.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| It's disgusting
| t-3 wrote:
| 16 is the age of consent in most of the US (by land area
| at least). Not that US laws around sex are necessarily
| good policy, but it reflects that there is no broad
| societal consensus on whether or not the 16-year-olds
| have the ability to consent.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| This is such a worthless and pedantic hill to die on, and
| one that seems to reveal a profound lack of empathy. Not
| everyone comes from the same background, not everyone had
| a good start free from abuse, and some 16 year olds are
| far more vulnerable legally, societally, and mentally
| than even their slightly older peers.
|
| With the benefit of being quite a bit older I'm
| increasingly struck by just how young and frankly
| childlike teens are. The age of consent isn't perfect,
| it's a compromise and an exercise in drawing lines, but
| that doesn't make it worthless or indicate that you
| should "well actually" people who are abusing them.
|
| Why not read Virginia Giuffre's book about her
| experiences for more insight into something you should
| frankly listen and learn about a lot more before you
| lecture.
| lukan wrote:
| I might have underestimated the trigger potential here,
| but can you state, where I did "lecture" anything or
| anyone here?
|
| The original claim was, Ginsberg went after "young male
| children".
|
| Sounds very, very bad.
|
| Wikipedia said so far the youngest was 16.
|
| Still bad, but not as bad in my opinion. So, to form my
| opinion after the initial accusation I requested more
| information.
|
| Nothing more, nothing less. It is not all the same to me.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| You might have underestimated the degree to which
| defending child abusers might upset people?
|
| That strikes me as remarkable, given that it's arguably
| the most famously flammable topic short of intrareligious
| conflict.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| >still bad
|
| Then what are we debating? Should we debate if 3 murders
| is as bad as 5 murders while we're at it? Or if stabbing
| someone to death is better/worse than shooting someone to
| death?
|
| You're treating this like some cold academic exercise or
| game of "what if" when it is a very real thing that
| happens to people literally every day. We are talking
| about a person who actually did this - an act that you
| yourself consider "bad."
| lukan wrote:
| "Then what are we debating?"
|
| Missunderstandings it seems. My goal was to find out what
| exactly he did.
|
| "We are talking about a person who actually did this"
|
| Because I still don't know what he did exactly. To me
| approaching a 16 year old is in a very different ballpark
| than approaching 8 year olds, but if it is the same to
| you, we should indeed stop right here.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| You are really going to regret having this comment
| history one day I guarantee it.
|
| As for your question in the other comment chain:
| Whitewashing/downplaying =/= justifying. We didn't say
| you "justified" it. Though neither is a great look.
|
| Have a good one dude. I've stomached all I can of this
| thread.
| lukan wrote:
| "We didn't say you "justified" it."
|
| "Bruh you're justifying statutory rape"
|
| ??
|
| Also ..
|
| "You are really going to regret having this comment
| history one day I guarantee it."
|
| .. was that a threat? In case people like you take the
| power?
|
| Anyway, I do recommend to reread what I wrote in a non
| engaged state of mind one day.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| >"Bruh you're justifying statutory rape"
|
| Different person in a different comment chain. Not me or
| the other person on this one.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Beat culture seems riddled with abusers and sociopaths.
| tclancy wrote:
| Could be why they rebelled against the society they were
| raised in. But still fell victim.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| Finding out about that whole NAMBLA thing was very
| disappointing
| dyauspitr wrote:
| 16 is the age of consent in most parts of Europe. I refuse to
| vilify someone for doing something completely legal.
| justinator wrote:
| The age gap makes it predatorial.
|
| Unless you're OK with 16 year olds having sex with 50 year
| olds who have been given access to them because of their
| fame an accolades, as well as personal connections?
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| The pro-pedophilia group Ginsberg was vocally involved with
| worked to _abolish_ age of consent laws.
|
| As in literally no age of consent.
| eth0up wrote:
| I lived right down the street from the bar where he died, in
| Saint Pete FL.
|
| I don't remember what or if the property is / still is.
|
| Perforated ulcer hit critical mass after the daily round of
| whiskey. I wonder if hpylori made it worse or it was just the
| suds.
|
| Edit: found this while searching for the bar
|
| https://stpetekerouachouse.com/
| mkovach wrote:
| Very cool! You lived down the street! And yes, Kerouac's turn
| toward health mainly counteracted the booze.
|
| Oh, and another fun fact:
|
| Kerouac once befriended a former minor league baseball player
| who'd also played college football. He encouraged the guy to
| try acting. In a roundabout way, we have Jack Kerouac to
| thank for Paul Gleason, one of the '80s movies' most
| memorable villains. (An interesting man in his own right.)
|
| (There are enough quotes and parentheses in this reply to
| resemble a LISP program, sorry about that.)
| eth0up wrote:
| Why your comment is being dragged down I think is best
| described by staring at The Torment of Saint Anthony. The
| creatures you see are the creatures here, fondling the
| arrows that point in the only direction they know.
|
| Do not be discouraged.
|
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/M
| i...
| sillyfluke wrote:
| movie pitch: Kerouac has some debt that falls on Castellono's
| people to collect. Kerouac tries to get out of it by convincing
| them to take a story instead of cash. They lock him up in a
| room somewhere until he writes the story. Movie is basically
| two or more people talking in a room, or just Kerouac seen
| talking with whoever is in the room, off screen.
| noefingway wrote:
| I've been re-reading Kerouac lately (LOA has a nice collection of
| novels in a single volume). His prose is jumps from bebop riffs
| (On the Road) to elegiac praise of hiking in the woods/mountains
| (Dharma Bums). The characters (like them or not) are well drawn
| and always interesting. My hitchhiking days are long gone and I
| don't suppose this mode of transportation obtains much in the US
| anymore, which I think is unfortunate as it is (or was) a great
| way to see the country and meet a lot of people.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Biking across the country is a thing though. You'll meet people
| in the small towns along the way. I've only done a few well-
| established routes (Katy trail, for example) but I have, and
| full of vicarity, watched many YouTubers crossing the U.S. by
| bicyle.
| jibal wrote:
| Too much empty space. I spent six weeks doing a solo ride in
| France -- Versailles, Chartres, Loire Valley rivers and
| castles, eastern Brittany, St. Malo, Cherbourg, St. Mont
| Michel, Honfleur, D-Day beaches, Bayoux, Chantilly, Paris
| (where I caught the Tour de France finishing at the Champs-
| Elysees) ... amazing experience.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Am I the only one who thought On the Road was a completely awful,
| poorly written book? I also hated Catcher too so maybe the
| 'American Greats' just aren't for me..
| treis wrote:
| Not being refined and well written is part of its charm. It's
| the raw unfiltered passion that's as much of the message as the
| story is.
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