[HN Gopher] Comparing the power consumption of a 30 year old ref...
___________________________________________________________________
Comparing the power consumption of a 30 year old refrigerator to a
new one
Author : furkansahin
Score : 83 points
Date : 2025-10-14 07:28 UTC (5 days ago)
(HTM) web link (ounapuu.ee)
(TXT) w3m dump (ounapuu.ee)
| abraxas wrote:
| Energy Star appliances started to show up circa 1995 so there may
| have been comparably efficient fridges back then.
| stereo wrote:
| The author is in Estonia. Appliances in the European Union have
| different energy standards and labels, and run on different
| voltages, so you don't ever see Energy Star fridges there.
|
| Estonia joined the EU in 2004, and I don't know what the energy
| labelling on appliances was like before then.
| someperson wrote:
| Since after 3 years you're beyond the break-even point due to
| energy use, the old refrigerator should be disposed of rather
| than given away.
|
| By keeping it in service, it's making somebody poorer. Especially
| since the person receiving the free 30 year old power hungry
| refrigerator and keeping it for a decade is the least likely to
| afford a replacement.
|
| Somebody already disadvantaged will eventually be stuck with
| structurally higher bills and find it harder to save due to this.
|
| Those that's not your problem it's more a government policy
| problem.
| avmich wrote:
| It would be interesting to hear your comparison to
| counterarguments to this. Can you explain why these arguments
| are more important?
| emtel wrote:
| Poor people can make their own decisions about whether to use
| an old fridge or not. They know much more about their own
| situation than you do. You are not well situated to make these
| sorts of decisions for them.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| But do they? Does the person taking on that broken
| refrigerator know that it has a flaw that makes it consume so
| much electricity that in 3 years the power use alone would
| cost more than buying a brand new refrigerator?
|
| (ok, in this case they gave it to someone that needs a
| temporary 'fridge during renovations, so it's kind of a moot
| point, they aren't just giving it to "poor people")
| bbarnett wrote:
| Probably not any better than the last two LG fridges which
| _both_ broke due to compressor issues, causing me to lose
| $1k of food each time.
|
| In one case, during the high summer, I didn't notice one
| was slowly getting warmer. I had constant bowel problems,
| because I was eating rotten mayonnaise. This was compounded
| by the fact that I bought fancy spicy mayonnaise, which I'd
| never tasted before, which masked the rotten flavour.
|
| So -- my lessons learned, never by LG horrible fridges
| again, and keep an analog thermometer, which I bought for
| $5, in the fridge.
|
| (General FYI, LG has had more than one class action law
| suit because of their compressors, _and_ , they even make
| it very hard to obtain replacements. Evil bastards.)
|
| My point is, you should take care with any fridge, new or
| old.
|
| (edit: some clarity on mayo)
| RedShift1 wrote:
| You need to smell your food before you eat it. Trust your
| senses.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Please. I've definitely smelled off food, and of course
| don't eat it. The mayo in question was some weird spicy
| stuff, and it didn't smell or taste bad.
|
| Note:
|
| https://www.sciencealert.com/sniff-tests-wont-save-you-
| from-...
|
| You cannot smell or taste all forms of bad food. At all.
| Marsymars wrote:
| I plan on putting some LoRaWAN temp sensors in my
| fridges/freezers to alert me if the temp goes out of spec
| for very long. (As soon as YoLink has their Local Hub
| available and functioning with Home Assistant.)
| bbarnett wrote:
| I have remote gauges with alarms in my freezers, but I'm
| in my fridge every day, and nothing beats a simple analog
| gauge.
|
| In the freezers I also employ either the "freeze some ice
| cubes and put them in a baggy" or "freeze a small jar and
| put a coin on top" methods.
|
| If you see the ice cubes have melted and refroze, then
| trouble. If the coin is not on the top of the jar -- same
| thing. Fail proof methods.
| scottlamb wrote:
| I doubt you'd be able to get a signal through from inside
| the fridge. I made a Home Assistant "food safety"
| dashboard and alerts. I found two challenges:
|
| * Connecting to the outside world. I didn't go wireless
| because a fridge/freezer cavity is basically a Faraday
| cage, because I didn't want to deal with replacing
| batteries, and because high humidity + low temp = wet,
| sad microcontroller. And even a "flat" 4-conductor
| telephone cord disturbed the magnetic seal enough that
| there was a noticeable gap. I ended up buying a
| 4-contact, 1mm pitch, 200mm flat flexible cable to run
| across the seal. I separated the contacts with a utility
| knife, soldering them to other cables on both sides. I
| also heatshrinked the conductors individually and the
| whole junction together for strain relief. Then I
| superglued it into place. And 4 conductors is enough for
| ground, supply voltage, and either TX/RX or
| 1-Wire+unused.
|
| * Getting a reading that matches what foods actually
| experience rather than the air temperature. The latter
| fluctuates a lot more when you open/close the door or
| depending on what the defrost/compressor is doing. I
| ended up buying waterproof 1-Wire temperature sensors
| (elecrow sells them for $1.20 each + reasonable
| shipping), 4 oz plastic bottles, cable glands, and
| propylene glycol (relatively safe antifreeze, though I
| wouldn't chug it). I drilled holes in the lids for the
| glands to run the sensors in, then closed the bottles up
| while immersed in the solution. Cheap DIY buffered
| temperature probe.
|
| I currently measure buffered temperature, air
| temperature, and humidity, but really only the buffered
| temperature matters.
| bbarnett wrote:
| There are loads of 'put them in the fridge/freezer' temp
| sensors out there, made just for this. I did buy lithium
| AA batteries (which work down to -40C even) for the
| sensor end.
|
| My thoughts are, these things are special built, and only
| wake every few minutes or so to burst send. Batteries
| tend to last a couple of years (but with the lithium
| ones!), and I get beeeeps from the receiver if it dies.
|
| (Not knocking your solution, it gives you more
| flexibility)
| scottlamb wrote:
| I saw a few that were wired with cords that seemed more
| intrusive than the telephone cord I tried, so I went my
| own way. And most of them didn't seem to be something I
| could connect to Home Assistant.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Well amazon has endless examples of wireless working
| fine. However, as I said, you get more flexibility with
| your own solution (like using Home Assistant)
| Marsymars wrote:
| I haven't tried yet, but YoLink specifically markets
| their LoRaWAN sensors as working in fridges:
| https://shop.yosmart.com/collections/smart-fridge
|
| For the readings, I only really care about catching
| compressor failure within hours, as opposed to say, days,
| so for a freezer that's normally set to -18, I figure
| I'll just do something like "alert if temperature remains
| above -14 for >2 hours." Of my 4 fridges/freezers, only
| one has auto-defrost, so I guess I'll have to take that
| into account there.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| My z-wave temperature sensor works inside my
| refrigerator. It's a stainless steel refrigerator with no
| window or icemaker in the door. Not sure how the signal
| gets out but it works.
| kasabali wrote:
| > So -- my lessons learned, never by LG horrible fridges
| again
|
| You'd need to be careful because many other manufacturers
| are using LG made compressors in their products.
| cogman10 wrote:
| LG and Samsung are the two that I think everyone should
| stay away from for major appliances.
|
| GE and it's spinoff brands tend to do better.
| analog31 wrote:
| You can borrow a watt meter at my local public library. I'm
| not saying the average person would have the knowledge to
| think of doing this, but it's not out of reach.
| bloomingeek wrote:
| There's an old expression that I actually lived out: "Poor
| people have poor ways."
|
| When I was living well below the poverty level, I used
| whatever resource that was available as long as it was legal.
| I was given a chest type freezer that was made somewhere in
| the early 60's, but was in good working order, since it was
| owned by a person in the HVAC field. It wasn't very
| efficient, but I needed the freezer space. (Since we didn't
| have air conditioning, I could afford the electric usage.)
| Most poor people make decisions based on whatever works, not
| if it's the best option, because of the lack of money.
| Manfred wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > as a stopgap until they get further with renovation work
|
| I assume they know what they are getting into.
| Theodores wrote:
| As another person has noted, this wasn't quite the scenario -
| they had renovations, but you know that now.
|
| I had to renovate a kitchen a while ago and I got into the
| habit of living without a fridge or a freezer. It came as a
| surprise that this was possible, and the article is interesting
| because I now know how much money is saved. I can compare this
| to food wasted due to a lack of refrigeration, and, I am still
| seeing the advantages of no fridge. Such heresy!
|
| It depends on what you eat, but I don't have time for most
| things that need to go in the fridge. If it isn't in the fridge
| at the supermarket then it doesn't need to be in the fridge at
| home is the general rule. Oddly I have lower food waste with no
| fridge, but there are annoyances such as not being able to buy
| a big bag of (say) carrots, and having to resupply twice a
| week. On the whole though, my food is a lot fresher than when I
| had a fridge, plus I have upped my nutrition game to not have
| this food morgue of things that 'want to kill me'. I joke, but
| there were a lot of ready meals, sticky puddings and much else
| that might as well been 'raw trans fats'. I went from this to a
| jute bag, which seems to keep most vegetables fresh enough for
| long enough.
|
| What is also interesting about fridges is how quickly they turn
| into some cave of mold even if they are kept nice and clean.
| Turn that electricity off, take everything out, and, unless you
| keep the door open, some true horrors will be found in there a
| week later.
|
| In the article this was not a like for like efficiency test by
| any stretch of the imagination. Over time it is the door seal
| that goes and, if that isn't tight then it will just be sucking
| moisture out of the air to make a huge ice block, hence
| compressor on the whole time.
|
| The next problem is that some fridges have vents with fans in
| them, sometimes forward facing at the base. These get to
| collect lots of dust, hair and other debris, making them
| ineffective.
|
| Despite these test methodology issues, in the real world people
| will be replacing an old fridge that has a dodgy seal with a
| new fridge that works as the manufacturer intended.
|
| Regarding your point of the poor, do you have any idea how many
| people in the UK do not have a fridge, or access to one?
| Allegedly it is in the millions, which I find hard to believe,
| but have not dismissed out of hand. There are so many people
| living in sub-standard rented accommodation in a shoebox sized
| 'studio flat' (or worse). Proper housing is required before
| these people can get a fridge. The UK is allegedly a first
| world country, but with huge inequalities when it comes to
| property and income.
|
| I suspect that in much of the world not having a fridge is no
| big deal, if you are living off the land rather than processed
| foods and processed animal products then why would no fridge be
| hardship?
|
| It is amazing how many assumptions there are regarding fridges,
| the need for them and whether life is 'disadvantaged' without
| one. Until relatively recent times nobody had fridges yet we
| somehow survived, albeit with some mortality issues.
| echelon_musk wrote:
| > _Comparing the power consumption of a [broken] 30 year old
| refrigerator to a brand new one_
| throw10920 wrote:
| Yeah, the title is misleading. The article says that one of the
| compressors on the old one was running constantly - if you
| applied the same failure mode to the new refrigerator, the
| difference would be significantly less.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| I would expect a refrigerator that has EC motors running the
| compressor(s) and fan(s) to be around 2-2.5x as efficient as
| one with fixed speed motors, based on what I know about
| variable frequency drives and three-phase induction motors.
| For those, 80% speed uses 50% of the power, 63% uses 25% of
| the power. For an 1800 rpm motor that is 1440 rpm and 1134
| rpm. VFDs work well for most applications with variable
| torque (fans and pumps), but applications requiring constant
| torque (saws, grinders, etc) are better served by fixed speed
| starters.
| amluto wrote:
| > variable frequency drives and three-phase induction
| motors. For those, 80% speed uses 50% of the power, 63%
| uses 25% of the power.
|
| You're presumably thinking of the "Affinity Laws", which,
| according to Wikipedia (and plenty of other sources),
| "apply to pumps, fans, and hydraulic turbines. In these
| rotary implements, the affinity laws apply both to
| centrifugal and axial flows."
|
| This is, IMO, one of the worst kinds of science writing.
| Wikipedia, and plenty of other sources, make little mention
| of when the do and don't apply or, relatedly, why they're
| true and why they can't always be true.
|
| They generally apply to situations where a pump is pumping
| fluid through something like a filter or a long pipe where
| the pipe is a closed loop or at least the ends are at the
| same elevation (e.g. a swimming pool pump, except when
| pumping from a pool into a higher hot tub). So you have no
| actual work being done by moving fluid, and you can run the
| pump slower, and thus _move less fluid per unit time_ ,
| thus reducing friction in a manner that the pressure that
| the pump needs to overcome goes all the way to zero as the
| flow rate approaches zero.
|
| But the affinity laws are not really anything fundamental
| about pumps, and they certainly do not override
| conservation of energy.
|
| Now consider a refrigerator. The compressor is pumping
| refrigerant from an (approximately) _fixed_ low pressure to
| a _fixed_ high pressure. (The fluid goes back from high
| pressure to low pressure via a capillary tube or expansion
| valve or similar lossy device -- it gets its pressure
| increased in the gas phase and decreased in the liquid
| phase.) There 's some friction, but after subtracting
| friction, the pressure is independent of flow rate, and
| thus the work done per unit flow is independent of flow
| rate, and the pump power scales linearly with flow as
| opposed to super-linearly as the affinity laws suggest.
|
| Also, the compressor is a positive-displacement pump, and
| the affinity laws don't even pretend to apply to these.
|
| (A well pump is another common system where the affinity
| laws will lead to nonsensical results. If you want to size
| a well pump properly, you need to know the height that
| you're raising the water, the output pressure you need, and
| the range of flows that you want. And then you look at the
| actual measured performance curves of the pumps (and their
| drives) that you are considering, and you pick something
| appropriate.)
|
| All that being said, variable-speed fridges exist, and
| they're kind of nice in that they try to run continuously
| and quietly instead of alternating between full-power (and
| loud) and all the way off. And they are probably a bit more
| efficient because there's less friction and because the
| motors are likely to be more efficient three-phase designs
| instead of the not-actually-amazing single-phase motors
| you'll find in older fridges.
| stevesimmons wrote:
| This is the kind of comment that makes HN special and
| precious. Thank you.
| bombela wrote:
| > variable-speed fridges exist, and they're kind of nice
| in that they try to run continuously and quietly instead
| of alternating between full-power (and loud) and all the
| way off.
|
| Modern continuous variable speed compressor fridges drive
| me absolutely crazy. They sound like two ceramic plate
| rubbing together with some maddening flutter.
|
| Some also add incredibly annoying high pitch whines. That
| seemingly nobody seems to notice but me. In the same vein
| as coils whine from power supplies and other modern
| electronic.
|
| Old bang bang fridges are loud, on lower frequency, and
| with a sound that is more consistent and stable. Not
| varying one second to the next, which I find easier to
| ignore.
|
| I have started looking at how reasonable it is to move
| the compressor of my expensive and low quality 2025
| fridge across the wall into the garage (refrigerant
| capture and refill, brazing new lines etc).
| axiolite wrote:
| > Some also add incredibly annoying high pitch whines.
| That seemingly nobody seems to notice but me.
|
| That drove me crazy for about a week trying to figure out
| what the noise was coming from... Pinhole water pipe
| leak? Cat stuck in the flue? Once I realized what it was,
| I didn't mind it much. It is better than loud old
| compressors suddenly kicking on and burrr'ing away then
| stopping.
| dlcarrier wrote:
| It's not just modern electronics. I used to be able to
| know, the minute I walked in, if there were any CRT TVs
| on in someones house. Flyback coil whine was a constant
| presence.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Variable-compressor fridges will be more
| thermodynamically efficient, as the heat transfer happens
| more gradually, so temperature differences across the
| heat pump will be lower (e.g. because the condenser will
| have more time to gradually transfer heat to the room, it
| won't get as hot). And coefficient of performance for a
| heat pump is higher if the temperature difference is
| smaller. Another way to achieve this might be with a
| variable-displacement compressor (which is how modern car
| AC systems work, rather than cycling on/off).
| IshKebab wrote:
| Unlikely. The thermal timescales are long enough that the
| fridge turning on and off doesn't mean the temperatures
| vary wildly. That's why they can do it in the first
| place!
|
| Central heating on the other hand... I'm definitely never
| buying a boiler without opentherm.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| This reply is amazing, thank you! This gives me a much
| better understanding of the work done by a chilled water
| pump in a closed loop vs a refrigerant pump with an
| expansion valve in the loop and in which situations the
| affinity laws apply to.
|
| I'm just a dumb electrical PM who knows enough to be
| dangerous, and I only know how things like heat
| exchangers, pumps, and fans work on a very basic level so
| this is illuminating.
| OJFord wrote:
| It's still _functional_ though, the point is comparing 'keep
| running the old tired one' vs 'replace with new', not 'how well
| were they made then vs now'.
| roughly wrote:
| I feel like a more appropriate - or at least a more
| interesting - comparison would be "fix the old one" vs
| "replace with new." Replacing an old broken product with a
| new unbroken one is changing two variables, not one.
|
| Now, if the author would like to break their New refrigerator
| and report back, I'll take it as an interesting result.
| courseofaction wrote:
| Save us dang
| roflchoppa wrote:
| I really want to know the power usage of the old fridge after it
| was fixed. :(
| cogman10 wrote:
| My assumption, probably pretty close to the new fridge.
|
| Very little has changed in fridge tech in 30 years besides them
| getting cheaper and breaking easier.
| saltcured wrote:
| For a fair comparison, they should measure a modern fridge
| when it misbehaving and running its WiFi and GPU constantly
| simpsond wrote:
| Is that true though? Better coolants, inverters / variable
| speed / scroll /swing compressors, insulation and mfg, etc.
| maybe for residential it's less impactful, but refrigeration
| in general has better efficiency than 30 years ago.
| cortic wrote:
| > Better coolants
|
| The Montreal protocol (1987) put us back into the dark ages
| with coolants for a while (both with CFC ban and later
| phase outs of HFCs). I suspect if you tested a refrigerator
| from 40 years ago they would give modern ones a run for
| their money...
|
| It was obviously a worthwhile sacrifice for the ozone layer
| though.
| parpfish wrote:
| have there been improvements to the insulation? given how
| good high-end coolers are now, i'd assume that there's been
| _something_ with the non-mechanical parts that could have
| improved
| Ekaros wrote:
| Maybe somewhat better insulation and then I have noticed
| with combined units that there is more of it. That is
| usable volume is smaller due to larger amount of
| insulation.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Ultimately, not much. The polyurethane insulation of 1995
| is pretty comparable with the polyurethane insulation of
| 2025.
|
| There are better insulations out there, but they cost money
| and are harder to work with. For example, we could
| theoretically vacuum seal a fridge, but that'd require an
| airtight seal and likely a stainless steel structure around
| the fridge.
| saltcured wrote:
| I think a lot of coolers used to have some parts like lid
| or even sides that were simply double-walled with an air
| gap and no real insulation. I remember old internet posts
| about people enhancing theirs by drilling into these spaces
| and injecting them with a minimally expanding foam from the
| hardware store.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| The old fridges that didn't self-defrost are probably the
| most reliable. The only moving part is the compressor. No
| fans, no heaters, and fairly quiet. But the freezer
| compartment will ice up especially in humid climates and must
| be periodically defrosted which is a bit of a PITA.
| FabHK wrote:
| Why talk about 2.6 kWh/day (power*time/time = energy/time =
| power) when there is perfectly fine unit for that, namely the
| watt?
|
| 2.6 kWh/day = 2.6 kWh/24h = 108 W, on average.
| snet0 wrote:
| I've had this thought before, when seeing labels that talk
| about kWh/day. The answer is very simple: you pay per kWh. When
| people want to know power efficiency, what they really want to
| know is "how much will this cost me to run?". That answer is
| most easily expressed in kWh per unit time.
| kitten_mittens_ wrote:
| In the US, at least, there are some utilities that charge
| based on maximum kW (demand) and total kWh used (energy).
| ComEd in Chicago is a utility with a demand rate plan option.
| tomrod wrote:
| That tends to be commercial rates since businesses can have
| larger spikes in consumption, so the "pipe" needs to be
| larger. Industrial rates are similar.
|
| There are some like ComEd that you call out that can apply
| the model to residential rates, though my (now dated)
| experience is that they are rarer.
| SECProto wrote:
| Knowing the average of 108 W wouldn't help with knowing
| your peak demand, as fridges vary significantly from off to
| startup to running, so knowing the average isn't useful in
| that situation either.
| fifilura wrote:
| Sweden just mandated kW prices along with the kWh. I think
| because we are starting to see the extra strain on the grid
| with EVs.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That strain does not seem to be reflected in the usage,
| which has been in a shallow decline since the 90s. Maybe
| they could consider using smart demand management, which
| is becoming popular with a lot of utilities to move usage
| away from peaks and into the quieter times.
| thesimon wrote:
| > when seeing labels that talk about kWh/day
|
| That's at least kinda reasonable. I'm always amused when I
| see TV energy labels that state
|
| xx kWh/1000h
| tialaramex wrote:
| Also giving an averaged power drain would be misleading. If
| the device uses 2.4kW but only for half an hour per day,
| that's not a 50W device as far as cabling, fuses and other
| electrical considerations.
| neutronicus wrote:
| Because the most familiar anchor for scale is the monthly meter
| reading, which is in kWh.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| Watts measure power, kWh measure energy - and they are a more
| convenient unit than J.
| Marsymars wrote:
| If you have natural gas connection, you can be charged for
| both kWh and GJ on the same bill!
| saltcured wrote:
| Or your utility may use freedom units like Therms
| Spivak wrote:
| Ccf is also common because it's the directly measured
| quantity by your gas provider and you don't need silly
| charts like https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/
| pdf/sec12_5.pdf
| saltcured wrote:
| Seems odd to sell a gas by volume though... are these
| understood to be at a standardized pressure/density?
| dogsgobork wrote:
| Electric bills aren't calculated by the Watt, you pay per kWh.
| The expected cost of running the fridge is the salient
| information.
| tomrod wrote:
| 0.108 x 168 hours/wk x 4.4 wks/month gives a good
| approximation for kwh/month. Demand over time gives
| consumption just fine.
|
| A 75% drop is nice and much improved.
| ASomniphobeHere wrote:
| Possibly because it gives better intuition for the approximate
| cost per unit of time. Similar to how fuel consumption can be
| written as volume/length = area, but is still usually presented
| in the former way, since that shows the actual amount of
| resource being consumed.
| Ekaros wrote:
| It is bit too derived unit. But on other hand it does make
| calculations pretty simple. Say 0.14 per kWh and then cost in
| month is simple multiplication 2.6 _30_ 0.14 . Or a year is 2.6
| _365_ 0.14...
| bee_rider wrote:
| Although this is totally informal, in a normal conversation if
| somebody gives me the wattage of a device, I assume they are
| peak power draw. For kWh/day, I assume they've accounted for
| some reasonable duty-factor.
| manwe150 wrote:
| I thought watt is a DC unit, so often avoided for AC
| measurements, since it is ambiguous which watt you are talking
| about, and the device is always consuming more or less than the
| average, and very rarely consuming that actual amount. Often
| the alternate unit is called VA, even though that too seems
| like a watt
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Watts work fine for AC - multiply your RMS voltage by
| current. The RMS takes care of the fact that AC isn't steady
| like DC.
|
| VA (takes power factor into account) is relevant for sizing
| transformers, breakers, wiring, etc but usually only affects
| your bill if you are a large industrial customer.
| stephen_g wrote:
| Because that's not what they're interested in! Really what they
| care about is that the fridge is consuming about 9.36 MJ/day,
| because really kWh is just a convenience unit for joules. But
| since everyone gets charged in kWh that's the unit they use.
| agsamek wrote:
| My new Bosch 2020 refrigerator broke down after 3 years of usage.
| Coolant leakage. Not repairable due to the foam direct injection.
| anjel wrote:
| Todays appliances are built, by design, to break fast these
| days. So whether old (operating costs) or new (foreshortened
| lifespan) your appliances cost you more.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/modern-appliances...
|
| (https://ghostarchive.org/archive/KGf2Z)
| trenchpilgrim wrote:
| There are still some repairable brands. GE'a basic appliances
| (and their budget subbrands like Hotpoint) are a standout
| with excellent availability of parts and service data. A
| hotpoint electric range can be fixed by any homeowner with a
| screwdriver.
| analog31 wrote:
| While we're on this topic, kudos to "Sears Parts Direct"
| for carrying a bewildering array of spare parts for those
| appliances.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| repairclinic.com is another good one. Not always the
| cheapest but very DIY-oriented.
| anjel wrote:
| The problem though is one of diminished durability by
| intent rather than repairability. Not to mention rising
| cost-of-repair.
| dangus wrote:
| As I recall GE is also one of the few/only brands that
| operates its own service business.
|
| I will also point out that the way inflation has tended to
| work is that you can still buy high quality appliances and
| other consumer products (e.g., tailored clothes and built-
| to-last leather shoes), but when you do the inflation math
| you have to spend a lot to get the equivalent product from
| decades ago.
|
| In other words, the same quality products generally still
| exist, the real issue is that a bunch of low price products
| that didn't used to exist now do, and average people didn't
| own as much stuff as they do now.
|
| If you buy a $2500 Speed Queen or a $10,000 Sub-Zero you're
| getting the kind of quality and repairability that used to
| exist in more appliances.
|
| But when it comes to a $500 washing machine or dryer, when
| you adjust for inflation that product did not exist 40
| years ago.
|
| The other thing I've heard about this issue is that the
| mid-range consumer luxury type stuff is the segment to
| avoid: built cheaply but with a lot of features that fail
| and a high cost. E.g., Samsung refrigerators with touch
| screens on them. You'll notice that most true luxury built-
| in brands don't have a laundry list of gimmick features.
| criddell wrote:
| GE was bought by Haier (a Chinese company) about ten
| years ago. I have a bunch of them and so far they are all
| pretty good.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| My GE fridge has been a disappointment. It is OK at its
| main function: cooling. However I've had to replace the
| main control board and the freezer defrost heater. The
| built-in water dispenser never really worked because the
| water line is routed too close to the freezer compartment
| and it freezes up. The ice maker is disconnected because
| its water line developed a leak and damaged my laminate
| floor before I noticed it. I don't think I'll be buying
| GE again.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I bought more or less the same dryer as the one from 1997
| that it replaced. There's cost reductions in some of the
| parts, but the overall design is more or less the same
| (for example, the timer is a cheaper design, there's no
| little door on the lint catcher, the adjustable feet are
| plastic instead of metal). I expect many parts are
| directly interchangeable.
|
| I guess I'm not sure what the 1997 price was, so can't
| really make a comparison.
|
| Fun story with the plastic feet, the delivery drivers
| either didn't know that they screwed into the dryer or
| pretended not to know. They left them barely inserted
| into the bottom and then put a shim under one of them to
| level it. I was standing there and kind of mumbled "can't
| you screw the others in" but dropped it and did it myself
| after they left.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > but when you do the inflation math you have to spend a
| lot to get the equivalent product from decades ago.
|
| But this is usually deceptively explained as being
| because they are far more expensive to make, when it is
| really 1) because of economies of scale when they are
| made in smaller runs often by smaller companies, or 2)
| intentionally segmented at that price by the same
| companies that sell the disposable stuff as a high-margin
| luxury option.
|
| If large companies were forced into a traditional quality
| standard, the cost increase wouldn't be 5x, it would be
| more like 1.5x. It might creep up after a while, as the
| runs became shorter because the products weren't built to
| fail anymore.
| jeffbee wrote:
| That article does not seem to support in any way the
| statement that appliances are intentionally designed for
| short lifespans.
| infecto wrote:
| Was not immediately apparent in article but I did not read
| the whole thing. Beyond general repairability the other issue
| to me is the cost of labor. In Vietnam I can get near
| anything repaired because the cost of labor is so darn cheap.
| In America it makes no sense to be paying $100/hour usually
| minimum two hour repair plus the cost of the part.
|
| I am ok with generally with having less ability to repair but
| I do wish more cities and companies and trade in programs for
| proper recycling.
| axiolite wrote:
| Neither the article nor the linked sources even attempt to
| prove that modern appliances are less durable or having more
| issues than old appliances.
|
| It seems to be just complaining about "computer circuit
| boards" in appliances, much the way people did about
| electronic ignition in cars, despite actually resulting in a
| huge increase in engine reliability because solid state has
| so very little to fail.
|
| I mean, maybe people throw out a perfectly working toaster
| when it can't connect to Wi-Fi anymore, (or take their car to
| the dealer when their entertainment system acts-up) but
| that's not an actual reliability issue, IMHO.
| aurizon wrote:
| The comments are well done and I am impressed. I would add the
| maker of the new one, partly as a tribute to them as well as
| gathering feedback from others. The fact that one compressors
| runs 24/7 might indicate it has failed to on 24/7 - also the ice
| block also says this? Thus a replacement thermostat might well
| reduce the KwHr used by the 24/7 operation. Looking up the model
| on youtube for thermostat repairs might help the new owner repair
| it and get a few more years, although an older less efficient
| unit, with a repaired thermostat it might not run 24/7 and use
| fewer KwHr?
| woile wrote:
| A 21 kWh/month it's 252 kwh/annum (I guess?), which is around
| energy label E in the new EU energy labels.
|
| If you go for energy label A, some fridges have 101 kWh/annum,
| which is more than half less! I haven't seen many, and they are
| usually very tall, but hopefully we can see more and more in the
| future.
| gdelfino01 wrote:
| New ones break quickly and then consume zero energy. So then you
| buy an even newer one without caring at all about the emissions
| to buy the new one and to get rid of the old one. And then feel
| good to be "saving the planet" because you have a super efficient
| fridge and repeat the cycle.
| ternus wrote:
| Totally fine to choose as the author did, but for others who
| might face a similar choice: repairing a thermostat in a fridge
| is _dramatically_ easier than fixing almost anything in a
| dishwasher. I did that with my fridge - cost <$20 for the part
| and maybe 30 minutes of work. Your (EU) kilometrage may vary.
|
| I suspect the power savings would be much less dramatic with a
| fixed thermostat.
| analog31 wrote:
| Indeed, been there. Just getting the dishwasher out of its
| cubby hole is a major effort, and involves dealing with not
| just the wiring but the hoses too. And if it's an older house,
| chances are good that the dishwasher had to be crammed in with
| a certain amount of hacking, cussing, and persuasion.
|
| The fridge rolls out into the room on its own wheels.
| aidos wrote:
| Amen. I put my dishwasher in myself so I get to curse myself
| for that hacking.
|
| Worst was sourcing the parts though. Getting the thing out,
| effectively getting it up on blocks to run it and see the
| issue was hard work. Getting the specific totally non-
| standard o-ring size out of the manufacturer was impossible.
| In the end I resorted to siliconing but I just cannot dump
| something like that over a 5c part.
| ternus wrote:
| Many dishwashers are supposed to be wood-screwed into the
| surrounding cabinets! Recently installed one for a friend and
| was surprised to see that instruction.
|
| Meanwhile, with the exception of ice makers/water dispensers
| (1/4 PEX), fridges don't have to deal with hoses for the most
| part. So much easier IME.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| > Many dishwashers are supposed to be wood-screwed into the
| surrounding cabinets!
|
| That's so they don't tip forward when a rack loaded with
| dishes is pulled out. There's a fair bit of forward
| leverage in that weight distribution.
| koyote wrote:
| A lot of fridges in Europe are integrated into the kitchen
| cabinets, similar to dishwashers.
|
| So I'd say they face the same kind of issues.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| Unless the fridge is sitting on the subfloor/slab and a floor
| was built around the fridge, blocking it in.
| kleiba wrote:
| This must be dependent on your country's customs, I suppose.
| I've taken out dishwashers quite a few times and it was
| actually fairly easy. No wheels, true, but cables and hoses
| were never much of a problem in my case.
| epcoa wrote:
| Nah, dishwashers are pretty light too. With a muscle mass
| of 1% I usually just flip it over to work on it. This is
| just peak HN, PhDs still phased by something requiring an
| 8th grade level of education. In the US, the supply is
| usually a screw on, the drain a clamp and if the wiring
| isn't already a quick connect just throw some Wagos on.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Depends. My last fridge the thermostat went bad and it couldn't
| be fixed because they embedded the entire thing into the foam.
| Terrible design. Was a whirlpool.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That's similar to what sent my last Samsung fridge to its
| next home. Samsung apparently had some problems with wire
| movement in the door hinge, so they changed the design and
| embedded the wires in glue/foam/whatever. So now if you have
| a problem with those wires, which happens because it's a
| hinge ... you get to replace the whole door at least. Turns
| out to be an expensive pain in the ass if the fridge is more
| than a few years old, it was more time- and cost-effective to
| get a new fridge at that point.
| criddell wrote:
| I just replaced the drain pump and motherboard on my GE
| dishwasher and it was super easy. Everything was easy to access
| and all the major parts had a QR code on them making parts
| lookup idiot proof.
|
| When the parts showed up they came with all the clamps and
| other replacement hardware that I didn't even know I needed.
| ternus wrote:
| Also: if you find ice forming in your fridge, or uneven cooling
| inside, it may be due to a clogged drain tube. This was the
| root cause of my fridge breaking: tube in the back clogged ->
| condensation backed up around the evaporator coils -> froze
| solid -> blocked circulation fan -> incorrect thermal readings,
| warm/frozen spots in fridge.
| dlcarrier wrote:
| I had one with a fan inside it that died, to similar effect.
| I didn't even know it used a fan to recirculate the air,
| until it didn't.
| axiolite wrote:
| I've found cheap after-market thermostats to have short
| lifetimes... Original lasted 20 years... Replacement started
| misbehaving in just 2 years.
|
| So now my policy is to retrofit all old refrigerators with
| digital STC-1000 thermostats. A bit more work to cut out some
| plastic, split the hot wire and tap into a neutral wire (easy
| enough to follow the bulb) but cheaper, super reliable, and
| gives very consistent and highly controllable results.
|
| Two such upgraded refrigerators are still working without an
| issue several years later. Though both required replacing the
| relay (with a solid state relay/capacitor unit) at about the
| same time, and one after replacement of the evaporator fan
| motor due to noise issues.
| dlcarrier wrote:
| I've found US dishwashers pretty easy to fix, but Korean and
| German ones can be a bit more of a pain, and these are the ones
| built for the US market. I've heard that European models often
| have water softeners built in.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Yeah I was wondering if there was perhaps some regional
| differences. The one time I did a DIY fix of my dishwasher I
| was pleasantly surprised with how easy it was. They're
| largely very simple devices, and aside from a couple screws
| to keep them from tipping, they slide right out of the
| opening they're in.
|
| > [...] German ones can be a bit more of a pain
|
| I did replace my dishwasher a few years ago with a Bosch. Uh-
| oh!
| userbinator wrote:
| Looking at their designs, this seems to be the case with
| other white goods too; I suspect it's because US designs are
| relatively old and simple since they were among the first,
| while foreign designs are more highly space- and cost-
| optimised at the expense of repairability and possibly
| robustness.
| ctrlp wrote:
| Regardless of efficiency, it is very difficult to find a newer
| refrigerator whose compressor doesn't emit a very irritating high
| pitched whine almost continuously.
| jrmg wrote:
| Personal pet level is that it's so hard to get information on
| the noise level of appliances.
|
| We've recently moved, and our new house's crawl space has a
| Santa Fe dehumidifier in it that seems SO LOUD at night. I
| don't think it's broken - it's just a compressor and fan with
| no engineering put into keeping them quiet. If I could get one
| that was as efficient and well built, but I knew would be
| quiet, I'd replace it in a heartbeat - but manufacturers don't
| advertise noise levels.
|
| Surely I can't be the only one who'd pay substantially more for
| an appliance that was guaranteed to be quiet?
| reddalo wrote:
| >it's so hard to get information on the noise level of
| appliances
|
| It's super easy if you live in the European Union, thanks to
| the Energy Label [1] which is mandatory on every appliance.
|
| [1] https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-
| and...
| bob1029 wrote:
| I would try plugging a simple induction motor into the
| refrigerator circuit to see if it also makes a weird noise.
| It's possible you have a problem with the wiring itself (loose
| neutral, etc.).
|
| I've never had issues with HF noise out of a refrigerator. It's
| always been the opposite kind of noise that has been a problem.
| silvestrov wrote:
| My Miele hums with so low frequency that it sounds like a truck
| is passing by.
| userbinator wrote:
| The newer compressors are smaller so they cost less, but are
| run faster to pump at the same rate. Many old hermetic
| compressors used a 4-pole 1500/1800RPM motor, then they became
| a 2-pole 3000/3600RPM, and the newest VFD/inverter motors can
| go even faster.
| prmoustache wrote:
| The dramatic things with refrigerators is that in most countries
| people will install them in the kitchen for obvious practicality
| reasons, which is often also the hottest room of the
| house/appartment due to ovens, stoves and spending a significant
| amount of time there. If you think of it, it is bonkers that we
| put a device meant to keep stuff cold in what is a heated place
| in northern countries. Some hold houses and building used to have
| non heated dedicated rooms meant to keep food at a lower
| temperature naturally in winter but this has pretty much
| disappeared.
|
| OTOH I live in a coastal city in south of Spain and every time I
| read a label that said food shouldn't be in a fridge but kept in
| a fresh and dry storage I ask myself where the eff should I store
| it there is no place like that unless I am running aircon 24/7
| which I certainly won't do.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _kept in a fresh and dry storage I ask myself where the eff
| should I store it_
|
| Your mountain home. (I'd hazard a guess that many such products
| come from the interior versus humid coasts.)
| rz2k wrote:
| I Suppose heating fuel is cheaper, or household heat pumps are
| more efficient, but all of the energy consumed by running the
| refrigerator becomes waste heat in the same room you are trying
| to heat. That seems superior to the refrigerator heating a room
| where the waste heat isn't useful.
| fifilura wrote:
| Where do you store your wine? (Only half kidding, but I am sure
| you have solutions like this in Spain)
| Aurornis wrote:
| The ambient temperature differential between the kitchen and
| other rooms in a house is minimal on average. There's nothing
| bonkers about putting the refrigerator in that space. Even a
| hypothetical 20F temperature rise during an hour long cooking
| session is basically negligible for the efficiency of a
| refrigerator that is cooling 24/7.
|
| Putting the refrigerator in an unconditioned space wouldn't be
| as big of a win as you think because every time you open the
| door to the unconditioned space you're letting cold air into
| the house. Twice per refrigerator visit all day long adds up.
|
| In the winter you actually benefit from having the refrigerator
| in your conditioned space because the waste heat goes toward
| heating your house. It would be lose-lose to put it outside of
| the house in a cold location.
| guerby wrote:
| I got a rated "A" for one year, this model (256 liter fridge +
| 122 liter freezer) :
|
| https://eprel.ec.europa.eu/screen/product/refrigeratingappli...
|
| Rated for 113 kWh/year
|
| I left a powermeter on it for one year and got 130 kWh.
|
| It's amazing that the average power consumption is less than 15
| Watt.
| sitharus wrote:
| I (well, my landlord) replaced a similarly old refrigerator last
| year. The thermostat was fine, it had developed a very slow gas
| leak and the charge had dropped enough that it was freezing
| rather than cooling.
|
| It was using around 29kWh/month before the leak was noticeable,
| the new one uses 12kWh/month. The new one is slightly larger than
| the old. The old model was freezer-on-top style, the new one is a
| less efficient freezer below model.
|
| Hopefully the new one lasts as long as the old!
| shtzvhdx wrote:
| Since a fridge's compressor runs about 30% of the time, most of
| the energy savings of the new fridge are because of a new
| thermostat.
|
| But the new fridge will not last thirty. Heck, he's lucky if it
| lasts ten. Five if he lives in an area prone to electrical
| surges.
| ohman876 wrote:
| The article mentions ice building up in that old fridge, and this
| reminded me what I was told by a man who was fixing these things-
| that the condition of rubber seal and fridge not being leveled
| correctly can also lead to the ice buildup (if thermostat is not
| broken). He did not explain in deep technical details why, but
| said that when the fridge door is not sealing fully then the room
| air enters the fridge and due to different condensation point it
| causes moisture buildup at the coldest part. I am not sure how
| factual this was, since after hearing this I adjusted the fridge
| so the doors were always closing themselves thanks to gravity,
| and the ice still kept building up. I did not replace the seal
| though :)
| d_sem wrote:
| So can we project from the authors data that, under normal
| operation, both bridges roughly consume the same amount of power?
| userbinator wrote:
| Agree with the others here that this is absolutely not a fair
| comparison. Most likely the door of the old one was not sealing
| well, hence the continuous running and frost buildup. I have a
| late 30s Frigidaire that I restored a few years ago which has
| been taking around 200kWh/y (70W compressor, ~33% duty cycle.)
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