[HN Gopher] Anthropic's Prompt Engineering Tutorial (2024)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Anthropic's Prompt Engineering Tutorial (2024)
        
       Author : cjbarber
       Score  : 350 points
       Date   : 2025-10-11 18:06 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | gdudeman wrote:
       | This is written for the 3 models (Sonnet, Haiku, Opus 3). While
       | some lessons will be relevant today, others will not be useful or
       | necessary on smarter, RL'd models like Sonnet 4.5.
       | 
       | > Note: This tutorial uses our smallest, fastest, and cheapest
       | model, Claude 3 Haiku. Anthropic has two other models, Claude 3
       | Sonnet and Claude 3 Opus, which are more intelligent than Haiku,
       | with Opus being the most intelligent.
        
         | cjbarber wrote:
         | Yes, Chapters 3 and 6 are likely less relevant now. Any others?
         | Specifically assuming the audience is someone writing a prompt
         | that'll be re-used repeatedly or needs to be optimized for
         | accuracy.
        
       | babblingfish wrote:
       | The big unlock for me reading this is to think about the order of
       | the output. As in, ask it to produce evidence and indicators
       | before answering a question. Obviously I knew LLMs are a
       | probabilistic auto complete. For some reason, I didn't think to
       | use this for priming.
        
         | adastra22 wrote:
         | Furthermore, the opposite behavior is very, very bad. Ask it to
         | give you an answer and justify it, it will output a randomish
         | reply and then enter bullshit mode rationalizing it.
         | 
         | Ask it to objectively list pros and cons from a
         | neutral/unbiased perspective and then proclaim an answer, and
         | you'll get something that is actually thought through.
        
         | beering wrote:
         | Note that this is not relevant for reasoning models, since they
         | will think about the problem in whatever order it wants to
         | before outputting the answer. Since it can "refer" back to its
         | thinking when outputting the final answer, the output order is
         | less relevant to the correctness. The relative robustness is
         | likely why openai is trying to force reasoning onto everyone.
        
           | adastra22 wrote:
           | This is misleading if not wrong. A thinking model doesn't
           | fundamentally work any different from a non-thinking model.
           | It is still next token prediction, with the same position
           | independence, and still suffers from the same context
           | poisoning issues. It's just that the "thinking" step injects
           | this instruction to take a moment and consider the situation
           | before acting, as a core system behavior.
           | 
           | But specialized instructions to weigh alternatives still
           | works better as it ends up thinking about thinking, thinking,
           | then making a choice.
        
             | simianwords wrote:
             | I think you are misleading as well. Thinking models do
             | recursively generate the final "best" prompt to get the
             | most accurate output. Unless you are genuinely giving new
             | useful information in the prompt, it is kind of useless to
             | structure the prompt in one way or another because
             | reasoning models can generate intermediate steps that give
             | best output. The evidence on this is clear - benchmarks
             | reveal that thinking models are way more performant.
        
               | zurfer wrote:
               | You're both kind of right. The order is less important
               | for reasoning models, but if you carefully read thinking
               | traces you'll find that the final answer is sometimes not
               | the same as the last intermediary result. On slightly
               | more challenging problems LLMs flip flop quite a bit and
               | ordering the output cleverly can uplift the result. That
               | might stop being true for newer or future models but I
               | iterated quite a bit in this for sonnet 4.
        
         | stingraycharles wrote:
         | I typically ask it to start with some short, verbatim quotes of
         | sources it found online (if relevant), as this grounds the
         | context into "real" information, rather than hallucinations. It
         | works fairly well in situations where this is relevant (I
         | recently went through a whole session of setting up Cloudflare
         | Zero Trust for our org, this was very much necessary).
        
           | TingPing wrote:
           | I try so hard for chatgpt to link and quote real
           | documentation. It makes up links, fake quotes, it even
           | gaslights me when i clarify the information isn't real.
        
       | 111yoav wrote:
       | Is there an up to date version of this that was written against
       | their latest models?
        
       | vincnetas wrote:
       | It's one year old. Curious how much of it is irrelevant already.
       | Would be nice to see it updated.
        
       | raffael_de wrote:
       | Should have "(2024)" in the submission title.
        
         | MandieD wrote:
         | Done
        
       | jwr wrote:
       | I find the word "engineering" used in this context extremely
       | annoying. There is no "engineering" here. Engineering is about
       | applying knowledge, laws of physics, and rules learned over many
       | years to predictably design and build things. This is throwing
       | stuff at the wall to see if it sticks.
        
         | einrealist wrote:
         | I call it "Vibe Prompting".
         | 
         | Even minor changes to models can render previous prompts
         | useless or invalidate assumptions for new prompts.
        
           | ineedasername wrote:
           | Even minor changes to a chemical formulation can render
           | previous process design useless or invalidate assumptions for
           | a new formulation.
           | 
           | Changing the production or operating process in the face of
           | changing inputs or desired outputs is the bread and butter of
           | countless engineers.
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | I dont think that is a good argument. In chemical
             | engineering world, the provider who just randomly changes
             | formulations would be called "ureliable, shoody, crappy
             | giving us something we not ordered".
        
         | frde_me wrote:
         | You could make this same argument about a lot of work that fall
         | onto "engineering" teams.
         | 
         | There's an implicit assumption that anything an engineer does
         | is engineering (and a deeper assumption that software as a
         | whole is worthy of being called software engineering in the
         | first place)
        
           | jwr wrote:
           | Perhaps. My point is that the word "engineering" describes a
           | specific approach, based on rigor and repeatability.
           | 
           | If the results of your work depend on a random generator
           | seed, it's not engineering. If you don't have established
           | practices, it's not engineering (hence "software engineering"
           | was always a dubious term).
           | 
           | Throwing new prompts at a machine with built-in randomness to
           | see if one sticks is DEFINITELY not engineering.
        
             | fragmede wrote:
             | > Throwing new prompts at a machine with built-in
             | randomness to see if one sticks is DEFINITELY not
             | engineering.
             | 
             | Where does all the knowledge, laws of physics, and rules
             | learned over many years to predictably design and build
             | things come from, if not by throwing things at the wall and
             | looking at what sticks and what does not, and then building
             | a model based on the differences between what stuck and
             | what did not, and then deriving a theory of stickiness and
             | building up a set of rules on how things work?
             | 
             | "Remember kids, the only difference between screwing around
             | and science is writing it down." -Adam Savage
        
               | galbar wrote:
               | They come from science. Engineering applies laws,
               | concepts and knowledge discovered through science.
               | Engineering and science are not the same, they are
               | different disciplines with different outcome
               | expectations.
        
               | 4ndrewl wrote:
               | Your analogy would work if eg gravity randomly changed,
               | or on occasion disappeared entirely until you pointed it
               | out.
               | 
               | "Great point, you're absolutely correct - things should
               | not be floating around like that." - ChatGPT (probably)
        
             | tirant wrote:
             | It can perfectly be engineering if you have the right
             | validation process. It is, if you can prove that the given
             | randomness can provide satisfactory results to solve the
             | given problem on 99,995% of the cases, then you have a
             | product that solves a given problem following a typical
             | engineering approach.
        
             | 8note wrote:
             | i dont see where a random seed would have any bearing on "a
             | specific approach, based on rigour and repeatability"
             | 
             | the approach uses random seeds, and the rigours make it
             | repeatable.
             | 
             | if im thinking about mechanical engineering, something like
             | the strength of a particular beam or the cycle life of a
             | bearing _is_ a random number. An engineer 's job includes
             | making random things predictable, by apply design tools
             | like safety factors, and observability tools. thats why we
             | prefer ductile materials; over brittle ones. both have a
             | random strength around the spec, but one visibly changes
             | before it fails, where the other doesnt. we can design in
             | inspection processes that accounts for the randomness.
             | 
             | all kinds of tuning operations also start with somewhat
             | random numbers and bring them to a spot. for the very
             | contemporary example: training an ML model. start with
             | random weights, and predictably change them until you get
             | an effective function.
             | 
             | i dont think the randomness excludes "prompt engineering"
             | from being engineering. instead, it's the rigour of the
             | process in turning the random inputs into predictable
             | outputs
        
         | frobisher wrote:
         | I hear you. But what's integration in calculus? :)
        
         | rr808 wrote:
         | I still like the Canadian approach that to have a title with
         | the word Engineer in it you have to be licensed by the
         | engineering regulator for the province you work in. The US way
         | of every software dev, mechanic, hvac installer or plumber is
         | an engineer is ridiculous.
        
           | delichon wrote:
           | Disagree. I think it's valid to describe your work as
           | engineering if it is in fact engineering, regardless of
           | credential. If the distinction is important, call it
           | "<credential name> Engineer". But to simply seize the word
           | and say you can't use it until you have _this_ credential is
           | authoritarian, unnecessary, rent seeking corruption.
        
             | rr808 wrote:
             | Doctors and Lawyers are like this. Maybe something like CPA
             | where you can be an accountant or a certified accountant
             | which you need for something important.
        
               | delichon wrote:
               | CPA is a great example. I'm a half decent accountant, and
               | it should be legal for me to claim that when applying for
               | a position. But it would be fraud to claim I'm a CPA.
        
               | dingnuts wrote:
               | what you are describing exists and is called a
               | Professional Engineer in the US
               | 
               | https://www.nspe.org/about/about-professional-
               | engineering/wh...
        
             | realo wrote:
             | Sorry but in Canada using the word Engineer near your name
             | also means you take legal responsibility personnaly for
             | your professional acts. We are assermented when we earn the
             | title of Junior Engineer after 4 years of university. Then
             | after a period of a few years in the workplace you can have
             | a sponsor Engineer vouch for you. You pass yet another exam
             | and only then you become an Engineer.
             | 
             | This is not true for most so-called Engineers in the US.
             | Anyone can declare themselves an engineer with no exam, no
             | sponsor, no assermentation and no real legal ties to their
             | shoddy work.
        
               | joleyj wrote:
               | >> This is not true for most so-called Engineers in the
               | US. >> Anyone can declare themselves an engineer with no
               | exam, >> no sponsor, no assermentation and no real legal
               | ties >> to their shoddy work.
               | 
               | I don't think that's correct. While there are exemptions,
               | each state requires anyone offering engineering services
               | to the public to be licensed.
               | 
               | https://educatingengineers.com/blog/pe-license-
               | requirements-...
        
               | realo wrote:
               | Sure, the term "Professional Engineer" is protected, but
               | not "Engineer" by itself.
        
             | ambicapter wrote:
             | > authoritarian, unnecessary, rent seeking corruption.
             | 
             | Or maybe it's a public service, which reduces instances of
             | fraudulent behavior, and provides cleaner signal in the
             | market of ideas.
        
           | gubicle wrote:
           | > I still like the Canadian approach that to have a title
           | with the word Engineer in it you have to be licensed by the
           | engineering regulator for the province you work in.
           | 
           | That's just not true.
           | 
           | (Despite what Engineers Canada and related parasites tell
           | you.)
        
           | dixie_land wrote:
           | hey now don't disparage plumbers they are usually certified
           | and licensed, unlike engineers :P
        
         | atherton33 wrote:
         | I agree with you about what's described here.
         | 
         | There is engineering when this is done seriously, though.
         | 
         | Build a test set and design metrics for it. Do rigorous
         | measurement on any change of the system, including the model,
         | inference parameters, context, prompt text, etc. Use real
         | statistical tests and adjust for multiple comparisons as
         | appropriate. Have monitoring that your assumptions during
         | initial prompt design continue to be valid in the future, and
         | alert on unexpected changes.
         | 
         | I'm surprised to see none of that advice in the article.
        
           | ryoshu wrote:
           | This article talks about prompt evals
           | https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/writing-tools-for-
           | agen.... There are plenty of approaches to provide some
           | degree of rigor around the slot machine output.
        
         | avemuri wrote:
         | Engineers work with non-deterministic systems all the time.
         | Getting them to work predictably within a known tolerance
         | window and/or with a quantified and acceptable failure rate is
         | absolutely engineering.
        
           | hn-acct wrote:
           | How do you quantify or decide an acceptable failure rate for
           | llm output?
        
             | avemuri wrote:
             | Depends on the failure mode and application. But a first
             | approximation is the same way you would for a human output.
             | E.g. process engineering for a support chatbot has many of
             | the same principles as process engineering for a human
             | staffed call center.
        
             | ineedasername wrote:
             | Same way as any other production model in ML. Or any field
             | that requires quality control. Really, this is not
             | fundamentally different in conceptual approach than
             | implementing any other technology or area of knowledge
             | which is a near verbatim definition of engineering.
        
         | mellosouls wrote:
         | Same when it's applied to programming though. "Software
         | engineer" has always been a bit silly.
        
           | bazmattaz wrote:
           | 100% I'm old enough to remember when they were called
           | "developers". Now someone who codes in html and ccs is a
           | "front end engineer". It's silly
        
         | ssivark wrote:
         | First they came for science: Physics, Chemistry, Biology -vs-
         | social science, political science, nutrition science, education
         | science, management science...
         | 
         | Now they come for engineering: software engineering, prompt
         | engineering...
         | 
         | :P
        
         | empath75 wrote:
         | Assume for the sake of argument, that this is literally sorcery
         | -- ie communing with spirits through prayer.
         | 
         | _Even in that case_, if you can design prayers that get
         | relatively predictable results from gods and incorporate that
         | into automated systems, that is still engineering. Trying to
         | tame chaotic and unpredictable systems is a big part of what
         | engineering is. Even designing systems where _humans_ do all
         | the work -- just as messy a task as dealing with LLMs, if not
         | more -- is a kind of engineering.
         | 
         | > rules learned over many years
         | 
         | How do you think they learned those rules? People were doing
         | engineering for centuries before science even existed as a
         | discipline. They built steam engines first and _then_
         | discovered the laws of thermodynamics.
        
         | BrouteMinou wrote:
         | I am a cereal eating engineer, while I review the cereal box
         | specification.
         | 
         | I do that every morning, before applying my bus-taking
         | engineering to my job.
         | 
         | Because I do prompt engineering for a living.
         | 
         | So many words lost their meaning today... I am glad I'm not the
         | only one annoyed by this.
        
           | soraminazuki wrote:
           | Of course, we're all comment engineers here!
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | I've seen some good arguments recently that software
         | engineering is weird in that computers ARE completely
         | predictable - which isn't the case for other engineering
         | fields, where there are far more unpredictable forces at play
         | and the goal is to engineer in tolerances to account for that.
         | 
         | So maybe "prompt engineering" is closer to real engineering
         | than "software engineering" is!
        
           | nothrabannosir wrote:
           | The computer may be reliable but the data passing through it
           | isn't.
        
           | enumjorge wrote:
           | With distributed systems I'd say network unreliability
           | introduces a good amount of unpredictability. Whether that's
           | comparable to what traditional engineering disciplines see, I
           | couldn't say. Some types of embedded programming, especially
           | those deployed out in the field, might also need to account
           | for non-favorable conditions. But the predictability argument
           | is interesting nonetheless.
        
         | theptip wrote:
         | "Social Engineering"
        
         | exe34 wrote:
         | I saw a talk by somebody from a big national lab recently, and
         | she was announced as the "facilities manager". I wondered for
         | about 5 seconds why the janitor was giving a talk at a
         | technical conference, but it turns out facility meant the
         | equivalent of a whole lab/instrument. She was the top boss.
        
         | ineedasername wrote:
         | It's not engineering if you throw anything together without
         | much understanding of the _why_ of things.
         | 
         | But if you understand the model architecture, training process,
         | inference process, computational linguistics, applied
         | linguistics in the areas of semantics, syntax, and more-- and
         | apply that knowledge to prompt creation... this application of
         | knowledge from systemic fields of inquiry is _the definition_
         | of engineering.
         | 
         | Black box spaghetti-hits-wall prompt creation? Sure, not so
         | much.
        
           | Den_VR wrote:
           | Part of the problem is the "physics" of prompting changes
           | with the models. At the prompt level, is it Even Possible to
           | engineer when the laws of the universe aren't even stable.
           | 
           | Engineering of the model architecture, sure. You can
           | mathematically model it.
           | 
           | Prompts? Perhaps never possible.
        
             | ineedasername wrote:
             | It changes with any different flavor of a technology in any
             | field of engineering, at least at the level of abstraction
             | that you're choosing to engage with the problem. Otherwise,
             | this is just machine learning. It yields to the same
             | conceptual approaches in quality control that require
             | fundamental understanding of the underlying fields of study
             | as any area of implementing technology--pretty much the
             | definition of engineering.
             | 
             | You can no more assume the same exact production flow will
             | produce equivalently for a different LLM model than you
             | could for control of a different molecular compound put
             | into product. If you choose only to consider it at the
             | level of equipment assembly then sure, the basic rules of
             | how you assemble the materials-- the "physics"-- doesn't
             | hold. If you do so at the same time that such efforts are
             | informed by knowledge of the relevant fields such as
             | material science and of course chemistry then you're doing
             | chemical engineering. Maybe you don't want to call the
             | construction workers engineers-- though heck in that field
             | many are! But certainly folks like the ones creating the
             | guide posted are being informed by the exact sort of
             | knowledge in the relevant underlying fields.
        
         | joomla199 wrote:
         | Indeed. Engineering is the act of employing our best predictive
         | theorems to manifest machines that work in reality. Here we see
         | people doing the opposite, describing theorems (and perhaps
         | superstitions) that are hoped to be predictive, on the basis of
         | observing reality. However insofar as these theorems remain
         | poor in their predictive power, their application can scarcely
         | be called engineering.
        
           | SSchick wrote:
           | Is this an AI generated post?
        
             | joomla199 wrote:
             | Yes, it was written by a SoTA AGI trained for more than 30
             | years.
             | 
             | I would like to add that predictable generation defeats the
             | very purpose of generative AI, so prompt engineering in
             | this context will never equate to what engineering means in
             | general.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | Words often have multiple meanings. The "engineering" in
         | "prompt engineering" is like in "social engineering". It's a
         | secondary, related but distinct meaning.
         | 
         | For example, Google defines the second meaning of "engineering"
         | as:
         | 
         | 2. the action of working _artfully_ to bring something about.
         | "if not for his shrewd engineering, the election would have
         | been lost"
         | 
         | (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3AEngineering)
         | 
         | Merriam-Webster has:
         | 
         | 3 : calculated manipulation or direction (as of behavior),
         | giving the example of "social engineering"
         | 
         | (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineering)
         | 
         | Random House has:
         | 
         | 3. skillful or artful contrivance; maneuvering
         | 
         | (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/enginee..
         | .)
         | 
         | Webster's has:
         | 
         | The act of maneuvering or managing.
         | 
         | (https://www.yourdictionary.com/engineering)
         | 
         | Look up "engineering" in almost any dictionary, and it will
         | list something along those lines as one of the meanings of the
         | word. It is a well-established, nontechnical meaning of
         | "engineering".
        
           | soraminazuki wrote:
           | While that may be true, I have a hard time believing that's
           | relevant to the _intent_ of people putting  "engineer" into
           | every job title out there.
        
             | illwrks wrote:
             | The same is true of the word 'designer', it's shorthand.
        
           | jakubmazanec wrote:
           | Your posted definitions contradict your conclusion - I would
           | argue there is nothing calculated (as parent poster said,
           | there is no calculation, it just trying and watching what
           | works), artful or skillful (because it's so random, what
           | skill is there to develop?) about "prompt engineering".
        
           | moxcat wrote:
           | Just scanning through I swear I saw the word mathturbation
        
         | DiscourseFan wrote:
         | 1) Software engineers don't often have deep physical knowledge
         | of computer systems, and their work is far more involved with
         | philosophy and to a certain extent mathematics than it is with
         | empirical science.
         | 
         | 2) I can tell you're not current with advances in AI. To be
         | brief, just like with computer science more broadly, we have
         | developed an entire terminology, reference framework and
         | documentation for working with prompts. This is an entire field
         | that you cannot learn in any school, and increasingly they
         | won't hire anyone without experience.
        
         | manojlds wrote:
         | This tutorial itself is very old. (In recent AI innovation
         | timelines)
         | 
         | Now it's all about Context Engineering which is very much
         | engineering.
        
         | scuff3d wrote:
         | We live in the dumbest fucking timeline.
        
         | Taek wrote:
         | If you are going to play that game, "engineering" used to mean
         | that you worked with engines.
         | 
         | Words evolve over time because existing words get adapted in
         | ways to help people understand new concepts.
        
           | greysphere wrote:
           | And in fact, the first engines were developed without a
           | robust understanding of the physics behind them. So, the
           | original version of 'engineering' is more closely to the
           | current practices surrounding AI than the modern
           | reinterpretation the root comment demands.
        
           | lencastre wrote:
           | I'll be damned if Engineering isn't connected to Ingenuity
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | The 'potatolicious rebuttal:
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44978319
         | 
         | (They're not an LLM fan; also: I directionally agree about
         | "prompt" engineering, but the argument proves too much if it
         | disqualifies "context" engineering, which is absolutely a
         | normal CS development problem).
        
         | marcosdumay wrote:
         | Unless you are going into a legal definition, where there's a
         | global enumeration of the tasks it does, "engineering" means
         | building stuff. Mostly stuff that is not "art", but sometimes
         | even it.
         | 
         | Building a prompt is "prompt engineering". You could also call
         | it "prompt crafting", or "prompt casting", but any of those
         | would do.
         | 
         | Also, engineering also had a strong connotation of messing with
         | stuff you don't understand until it works reliably. Your idea
         | of it is very new, and doesn't even apply to all areas that are
         | officially named that way.
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | > Engineering is about applying knowledge, laws of physics, and
         | rules learned over many years to predictably design and build
         | things. This is throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks.
         | 
         | There's one other type of "engineering" that this reminds me
         | of...
        
       | ipnon wrote:
       | I really struggle to feel the AGI when I read such things. I
       | understand this is all of year old. And that we have superhuman
       | results in mathematics, basic science, game playing, and other
       | well-defined fields. But why is it difficult to impossible for
       | LLMs to intuit and deeply comprehend what it is we are trying to
       | coax from them?
        
         | xanderlewis wrote:
         | > superhuman results in mathematics
         | 
         | LLMs mostly spew nonsense if you ask them basic questions on
         | research or even master's degree-level mathematics. I've only
         | ever seen non-mathematicians suggest otherwise, and even the
         | biggest mathematician advocate for AI, Terry Tao, seems to
         | recognise this too.
        
         | jimmcslim wrote:
         | Ask yourself "what is intelligence?". Can intelligence at the
         | level of human experience exist without that which we all also
         | (allegedly) have... "consciousness". What is the source of
         | "consciousness"? Can consciousness be computed?
         | 
         | Without answers to these questions, I don't think we are ever
         | achieving AGI. At the end of the day, frontier models are just
         | arithmetic, conditionals, and loops.
        
         | mkl wrote:
         | > But why is it difficult to impossible for LLMs to intuit and
         | deeply comprehend what it is we are trying to coax from them?
         | 
         | It's right there in the name. Large language models model
         | language and predict tokens. They are not trained to deeply
         | comprehend, as we don't really know how to do that.
        
         | kemiller wrote:
         | Have you ever tried to get an average human to do that? It's a
         | mixed bag. Computers til now were highly repeatable relative to
         | humans, once programmed, but hopeless at "fuzzy" or associative
         | tasks. Now they have a new trick, that lets them grapple with
         | ambiguity, but the cost is losing that repeatability. The best,
         | most reliable humans were not born that way, it took years or
         | decades of education, and even then it can take a lot of
         | talking to transfer your idea into their brain.
        
       | whatever1 wrote:
       | In today's episode of Alchemy for beginners!
       | 
       | Reminds me of a time that I found I could speed up by 30% an Algo
       | in a benchmark set if I seed the random number generator with the
       | number 7. Not 8. Not 6. 7.
        
         | ramraj07 wrote:
         | It does make things non deterministic and complicated. Like it
         | or not, this IS the job now. If you don't do it, someone else
         | is going to have to.
         | 
         | In my AI application I made deliberate decisions to divorce
         | prompt engineering from the actual engineering, create all the
         | tooling needed to do the prompt engineering as methodically as
         | possible (componentize, version, eval) and handed it off to the
         | subject matter experts. Clearly people who think this is the
         | equivalent of choosing a seed shouldn't be writing prompts.
        
           | marcosdumay wrote:
           | > Like it or not, this IS the job now.
           | 
           | Nope. The job is still to come up with working code on the
           | end.
           | 
           | If LLMs make your life harder, and you just don't use them,
           | then you'll just get the job done without them.
        
       | CuriouslyC wrote:
       | Don't write prompts yourself, use DSPy. That's real prompt
       | "engineering"
        
       | meander_water wrote:
       | Agree with the other commenters here that this doesn't feel like
       | engineering.
       | 
       | However, Anthropic has done some cool work on model
       | interpretability [0]. If that tool was exposed through the public
       | API, then we could at least start to get a feedback loop going
       | where we could compare the internal states of the model with
       | different prompts, and try and tune them systematically.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-
       | language...
        
       | mold_aid wrote:
       | "Engineering" here seems rhetorically designed to convince people
       | they're not just writing sentences. With respect "prompt writing"
       | probably sounds bad to the same type of person who thinks there
       | are "soft" skills.
        
         | dpe82 wrote:
         | This strikes me as a silly semantics argument.
         | 
         | One could similarly argue software engineering is also just
         | writing sentences with funny characters sprinkled in.
         | Personally, my most productive "software engineering" work is
         | literally writing technical documents (full of sentences!) and
         | talking to people. My mechanical engineering friends report
         | similar as they become more senior.
        
           | watwut wrote:
           | I dont think so. It says the words were choosen to wngineer
           | peoples emotions and make then feel right way.
           | 
           | Tech people do not feel good about "writing propt essay" so
           | it is called engineering to buy their emotional acceptance.
           | 
           | Just like we call wrong output "hallucination" rather then
           | "bullshit" or "lie" or "bug" or "wrong output". Hallucination
           | is used to make us feel better and more acceptiong.
        
           | mold_aid wrote:
           | >This strikes me as a silly semantics argument.
           | 
           | Yeah, precisely what I'm saying. I don't think "they write
           | prompt 'engineering' instead of 'writing' to maintain the
           | fragile egos of people who use chatbots" [don't agree? See
           | Mr. "but muh soft skills!" crying down thread] is worth
           | saying outside of HN if I'm honest.
        
         | antinomicus wrote:
         | There absolutely are soft skills and it is clear that you do
         | not have them.
        
           | mold_aid wrote:
           | I mean ok, there's no such thing, so
        
       | Sammi wrote:
       | Here's my best advice of prompt engineering for hard problems.
       | Always funnel out and then funnel in. Let me explain.
       | 
       | State your concrete problem and context. Then we funnel out by
       | asking the AI to do a thorough analysis and investigate all the
       | possible options and approaches for solving the issue. Ask it to
       | go search the web for all possible relevant information. And now
       | we start funneling in again by asking it to list the pros and
       | cons of each approach. Finally we asked it to choose which one or
       | two solutions are the most relevant to our problem at hand.
       | 
       | For easy problems you can just skip all of this and just ask
       | directly because it'll know and it'll answer.
       | 
       | The issue with harder problems is that if you just ask it
       | directly to come up with a solution then it'll just make
       | something up and it will make up reasons for why it'll work. You
       | need to ground it in reality first.
       | 
       | So you do: contrete context and problem, thorough analysis of
       | options, list pros and cons, and pick a winner.
        
         | nchmy wrote:
         | Doesn't this also apply for non-AI problem solving as well?
        
           | y-curious wrote:
           | "Honey, which restaurant should we eat at tonight? First,
           | create a list of restaurants and highlight the pros and cons
           | of each. Conduct a web search. Narrow this down to 2
           | restaurants and wait for a response."
        
       | smallerfish wrote:
       | Nothing about telling it to fuck off, of course to "engineer" its
       | user sentiment analysis?
        
       | taspeotis wrote:
       | My workflow has gotten pretty lax around prompts since the models
       | have gotten better. Especially with Claude 4.5 (and 4 before it)
       | once they have a bit of context loaded about the task at hand.
       | 
       | I keep it short and conversational, but I do supervise it. If it
       | goes off the rails just smash esc and give it a course
       | correction.
       | 
       | And then if you're coming from no context: I throw a bit more
       | detail in at the start and usually start by ending the initial
       | prompt with a question asking it if it can see what I'm talking
       | about in the code; or if it's going to be big: I use planning
       | mode.
        
       | donperignon wrote:
       | This AI madness is getting more stupid every day...
        
       | pluc wrote:
       | So we've taught this thing how to do what we did and now we need
       | to be taught how to get it to do the things we taught it to do.
       | If this didn't have the entire US economy behind it, it would
       | catch fire like a hot balloon.
        
       | axpy906 wrote:
       | Suggest adding 2024 to the title
        
       | kuharich wrote:
       | Past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395921
        
       | kgeist wrote:
       | Yesterday I was trying to make a small quantized model work, but
       | it just refused to follow all my instructions. I tried to use all
       | the tricks I could remember, but fixing instruction-following for
       | one rule would always break another.
       | 
       | Then I had an idea: do I really want to be a "prompt engineer"
       | and waste time on this, when the latest SOTA models probably
       | already have knowledge of how to make good prompts in their
       | training data?
       | 
       | Five minutes and a few back-and-forths with GPT-5 later, I had a
       | working prompt that made the model follow all my instructions. I
       | did it manually, but I'm sure you can automate this "prompt
       | calibration" with two LLMs: a prompt rewriter and a judge in a
       | loop.
        
         | pojzon wrote:
         | Thats how copilot works by default. At least in IDE, it takes
         | my prompt, makes it pretty and passes it further.
        
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