[HN Gopher] Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switze...
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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
Author : kvam
Score : 485 points
Date : 2025-10-11 08:09 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bluewin.ch)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bluewin.ch)
| basisword wrote:
| An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or
| injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at
| a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his
| easier?
| amelius wrote:
| > It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the
| will to survive is so strong
|
| For physical illnesses.
| masklinn wrote:
| > I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making
| a choice like his easier?
|
| It's less likely to be "a certain age" and more surrounding
| factors: if most of your friends have passed and you don't have
| much chance to do things that interest you because you could
| pass at any moment yourself there comes a point where life has
| limited worth.
|
| Essentially, hope runs out, and when it's run out entirely you
| either wait for death, or ... don't wait.
|
| > It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the
| will to survive is so strong
|
| Sometimes. Chronic illnesses are a massive contributing factor
| to suicide rates for instance:
| https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7...
| fjfaase wrote:
| If you have (grand)children, an important reason to wanting to
| stay alive is often not the fear of dying, but wanting to be
| there for them and fearing the grief they will endure if you
| are gone.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| My grandparents stuck around too long, so I have the opposite
| fear of burdening my descendants with having to (if not
| legally, then via social pressure) spend too much time,
| money, and energy caring for me.
| exasperaited wrote:
| There's a solution to this you can start on right now:
| structure your life and experiences such that you become an
| awesome grandparent with hilarious stories, humility and
| appeal to your grandchildren.
|
| I probably won't ever meet my grandchildren if there are
| any, because I am over fifty and single; I probably will
| never be a parent. So I will have to go a lot sooner if I
| am not to be a burden on society. But if you think you are
| going to be a grandparent, you can work on being an
| irreplaceable and useful one.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I am referring to being so old that you are dependent on
| others everyday such that the caregivers cannot go on
| vacation. One set of my grandparents both lived to 100,
| and they had a 15 year age gap, so that was the first 30
| years of my life that my parents sacrificed time with
| their kids, professional life, and personal life.
|
| Very few people are independent after age 80, and a
| miniscule amount after 90.
| basisword wrote:
| I think it would be valuable to get your parents opinion on
| whether the burden was worth it or not. Or, unfortunately,
| to see if your opinion changes if you have to bear the
| burden of your parents in the future. It's easy to assume
| the burden isn't worth it when we have a bit more distance
| (e.g. grandparents) but I think people are more open to it
| than we realise - even if it comes with immense amounts of
| stress. Saying that I think it varies person to person.
| Often in families you have people who are willing to carry
| the burden and others who aren't and that brings even more
| stress and disagreement to the situation.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I had real time feedback from my mom (the daughter in
| law) while growing up. I would never ask or want my wife
| to live the quality of life my mom did for her parents'
| in law.
|
| And I don't want that for my kids, or even from the rest
| of society.
| raffael_de wrote:
| Maybe at a certain age other instincts strengthen making a
| choice like this easier? We all have to come to terms. And if
| you are older than 70 then it is just a fact that every day can
| be your last without any accident or noteworthy medical
| complication. And the guy has been probably thinking about this
| fast and slow for at least two decades then.
| cm2012 wrote:
| You get so tired
| jacquesm wrote:
| This.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago.
|
| Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he
| lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour,
| friendly guy who'd talk to everyone.
|
| He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated
| him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who
| took away his license.
|
| He argued with me about the state of some chicken he wanted to
| cook. I told him "this is pink all over, you have to cook it
| more". He got angry. I understood he'd become like this to
| everyone.
|
| He pissed off everyone on his street, and all police, medical and
| social workers sent to help him. The disease made him blow up
| every relationship he had with anyone that he didn't know well,
| like me and a couple of colleagues.
|
| He got found in his house, having left the gas on, endangering
| the whole street. He ended up in a care home, not knowing who he
| was, or who I was.
|
| If he'd been run over by a car, or died of a heart attack at the
| age of 80, people he knew would remember him as that nice old guy
| who had a dog and made a lot of art, and was friendly to
| everyone. Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off
| everyone, nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a
| maniac.
|
| You really don't want to end up with dementia and related
| illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| It doesn't seem pleasant for the person themself either.
| Constant frustration, gaps in your memory growing ever larger,
| disorientation, loss -- periodically augmented by brief
| flickers of recollection of what you used to be -- and yet no
| one can legally end your misery, because you can likely no
| longer unequivocally consent to euthanasia or assisted suicide,
| even if you explicitly signed a declaration that you did not
| want to end up like this -- legally, the current husk of your
| former self must consent, and it can't.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| It's still absurd despite what you say that we are implying
| that we should euthanize another human because they have
| become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw
| the line?
| stavros wrote:
| I think the implication was more "people should be free,
| when they're of sound mind, to choose euthanasia if they
| lose that sound mind".
| cwillu wrote:
| You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get
| to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of
| their prior declaration that they do not want to be
| tormented.
|
| "It shouldn't be that way" is not an excuse to torture
| people through your moralizing indifference to the fact
| that it _is_ that way.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I've wondered about this for my hypothetical future self.
|
| Currently? I'd say that I wouldn't want to live with
| dementia, but what if my "demented self" (kinda hate the
| phrasing, sorry) in the future wants to live, or doesn't
| remember they don't want to live?
|
| Do I have a say over the life of someone who doesn't
| remember they were me?
| tirant wrote:
| You don't have a say over your future you because your
| future you is not the same person as you.
| rkomorn wrote:
| That's what I lean towards, too.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| The entire issue they're pointing to is that deciding
| that someone's existence is sufficiently tormented is
| difficult and morally fraught.
| pantalaimon wrote:
| If you visit an elderly care home you'll find plenty of
| people who express their wish that they don't want to
| live any longer. It's not getting better for them - they
| are just waiting for the day to come, often in agony.
| Noaidi wrote:
| But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness
| have the capacity to make that decision?
|
| It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from
| depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the
| rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day
| was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope
| came back?
| lukan wrote:
| "What if the next day his hope came back?"
|
| What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than
| the last day?
|
| And people don't get any younger.
|
| My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could
| not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would
| be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And
| suffers till then.
|
| I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell
| and no one depends on me, why should I continue the
| suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?)
|
| But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health.
| But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
| Noaidi wrote:
| > What if he tried that, but every day just got worse
| than the last day?
|
| Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't
| they? How many people struggling today think that their
| life will get no better? Look at all those who made it
| through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came
| from their faith.
|
| Suffering has a purpose, this is something your
| grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists
| understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our
| suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in
| something bigger than ourselves.
| lukan wrote:
| Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and
| don't think suffering as a normal living condition is
| necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all
| christians/buddhists share that believe)
|
| So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And
| accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that
| condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid.
|
| "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't
| they?"
|
| So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death
| wish.
|
| And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental
| condition. It _can_ of course result of a illness, but it
| can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a
| decision.
|
| And if other people decide they may not do this, but have
| to remain in their state of living hell, then this is
| just torture to me.
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| > Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist
| and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is
| necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all
| christians/buddhists share that believe)
|
| At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a
| prerequisite to bringing life into this world.
|
| edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for
| proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don't
| know anyone who has said that the physical act of giving
| birth is anything but painful.
| lukan wrote:
| No, I asked for proof that a constant condition of
| suffering is inherent of life. Not that suffering is
| _also_ part of life.
|
| (Vouched for it to be able to reply)
| Noaidi wrote:
| There is no such thing as constant suffering and there's
| no such thing as constant joy.
|
| Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy
| we wouldn't know suffering. So these are two sides of the
| same coin, do you see that?
|
| It's our attachment to ourselves that brings us both joy
| and suffering. So, I'm sorry, if you want to get rid of
| suffering you're going to get rid of joy as well. So I
| don't know if dying brings us joy or gets rid of our
| suffering. We really don't know what happens to us after
| we die, do we? You can say that everything just ends, but
| I'm really not wanting to say that because, well, I'm
| still alive.
|
| I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn't take his
| life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was
| like being dead and if he thought he was certain that
| being dead would be any better. He literally told me the
| confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life
| as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you
| don't.
| Noaidi wrote:
| The first of the four noble truths set fourth by the
| Buddha:
|
| The truth of dukkha: Recognizing that suffering is a
| fundamental part of existence
|
| They even call Joy "hidden suffering". Because whenever
| the thing is that gives us joy, if we become attached to
| it and it is taken away then we have suffering.
|
| And the Christians believe that the suffering of Christ
| was needed to forgive everyone of their sins.
|
| So they both view suffering as an important aspect of
| life. Something to be used for learning and understanding
| the human condition.
|
| But the buddhist and the Christians believe that you can
| escape what you would think of a state of constant
| suffering through religious practices. It's the faith the
| American slaves had in Christ that got them through their
| state of living hell. And we've even seen a Buddhist
| light themselves on fire to protest the war in Vietnam.
| So I'm sorry, but I can't look upon suffering as
| something that's negative and I accept it as part of life
| and just as I can learn things from joy and I can learn
| things from suffering, and they are both the same size of
| the coin and equally as valuable.
| circlefavshape wrote:
| Let's see how _you_ handle suffering when it comes
| knocking on your door
| lukan wrote:
| He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later
| died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what
| suffering means.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996
| leakycap wrote:
| Seeing someone else experience something is not the same
| as having it happen to you, and those who wish to instill
| their opinion on others often have the smallest
| worldviews and ability to think about what it might be
| like to experience what someone else is going through.
| Noaidi wrote:
| Please stop assuming you know what suffering I've had in
| my own body and my own life. I don't wish to discuss it
| here, but I don't think it needs to be discussed. My
| experience doesn't matter in the logic of the argument.
| leakycap wrote:
| If you don't want to talk about it, you can't expect
| anyone around you to take it into account.
|
| You can leave it unsaid if you aren't going to say it,
| and either way you claim it isn't relevant.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| If I'm 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn't
| going to get better.
|
| And please don't bring some mythical being in the
| argument.
| Noaidi wrote:
| Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn't
| bringing up God as I don't believe in a Christian God,
| and Buddhists don't believe in God at all.
|
| But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering.
| Where it comes from and how to face suffering with
| courage and not just throw your morals out the window
| once you have the glimpse of even future suffering.
|
| Maybe it's just me, but I see every moment as the best it
| can possibly be. Whether I'm seeing this gorgeous sunny
| blue sky today or I'm 95 years old with terminal cancer.
| It's a miracle to be born and to exist in this world,
| it's extremely rare. And I want to live every last second
| of it. Maybe that's what's upsetting me about reading
| what he wrote. If you just try to grab the good times in
| this life and use that as a goal you're going to be
| severely disappointed.
| lukan wrote:
| "And I want to live every last second of it."
|
| Glad for you. I really hope you never come into a
| situation that you wish for your life to end. But please
| take into account, that other people might experience
| life different at times.
|
| No one has a death wish, because things are a bit rough
| sometimes. But if life is constant hell and when there is
| no hope anymore. Then you wish for death to release you.
|
| (Also do you know what latestage cancer can mean?
| Constant pain that does not go away, ever.
|
| And Jesus might have been a real person, but that he
| choose crucification out of his own choice is very much
| part of the mythological story that other people told
| after his death)
| Noaidi wrote:
| So many of you, here are thinking that my father did not
| die of a rapid metastatic cancer. Or that I held my
| schizophrenic brother in my arms after he tried to
| overdose on pills. Or that I'm not suffering from a
| disorder that I'm not going to detail here.
|
| When you deal with suffering every day, you come to have
| a different relationship with it that is, if you don't
| take the view of material list and instead follow the
| past of the several spiritual leaders who dealt with
| suffering and understood it in a way that is much deeper
| than "suffering is bad".
|
| Christ test there is much more complicated than he wanted
| to die because he was suffering. Christ chose his
| suffering and his death as a sacrifice for other people.
| Christ did not die by his own hands, but from others. He
| chose peace and love over his own suffering and death.
| It's one thing to die because you have no hope and it's
| another thing to die to give Hope to everyone else.
|
| The man in the original article, he died for nothing. He
| died for his own selfish desires. He died because he
| thought it was embarrassing to be old.
| leakycap wrote:
| > If you just try to grab the good times in this life and
| use that as a goal you're going to be severely
| disappointed.
|
| No, it sounds like _you_ would be disappointed in that
| scenario. Many would be elated to get through this hell-
| hole relatively joyous & unscathed.
| MyOutfitIsVague wrote:
| The historical Jesus was with a high degree of certainty
| quite different than the way he is currently remembered
| and the way he is portrayed in much of the new testament.
| The majority of the stories involving him either did not
| happen or were significantly changed between when the
| event occurred and when, generations later, it was
| recorded.
|
| I see your last paragraph as naive, and cruelly
| dismissive of what true suffering is. It is possible to
| be in a place where the only life you have left is
| excruciating and intolerable. You are in a privileged
| position to have never seen a beloved family member die a
| slow and terrible death, or to have had a serious
| prolonged health event and have the moment of realization
| that for some people, your horrible weeks of insufferable
| illness are their entire experience of life, and wonder
| if you'd even want to live if that was all you had left.
| Noaidi wrote:
| > You are in a privileged position to have never seen a
| beloved family member die a slow and terrible death,
|
| can I say this is not true without going into details?
|
| is it because I had insight of my suffering that were
| different than yours that you don't believe me?
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| My only definition of "morality" is are you doing
| something that affects other people. If you aren't doing
| anything to hurt other people, I consider that "morally
| neutral". If you aren't doing anything to help other
| people, that's "morally good".
|
| How is my hypothetically deciding to end my own suffering
| "morally bad"? I don't owe suffering from a terminal
| illness to anyone.
|
| Your calculation for what you will suffer to enjoy
| another day of life may be different than mine and that's
| fine.
| skibbityboop wrote:
| Yes, when dementia has you terrified of, or raging at,
| your closest loved ones (who you don't remember at all so
| you think they're demons or strangers) all day every day
| to the point where they all can't stand you and feel
| terrible for wishing death would come to end your massive
| suffering. Beautiful moments, just beautiful.
|
| Hanging in there with cancer? Sure, fight it and deal
| with the pain. Dementia? No, please end it. The two
| aren't even close in comparison, cancer feels easy and
| merciful.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a
| partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else
| so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.
| Noaidi wrote:
| I think it was this part that stuck out to me.
|
| "His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular
| dementia. The loss affected him deeply."
|
| I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a
| new partner. Depression does not always go away when you
| meet someone new.
|
| But I think people with depression have lost hope in the
| future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.
| fn-mote wrote:
| > it sounds like he lost hope in his future
|
| People in their 80's are watching their friends die one
| after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about
| their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying
| life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end
| isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else.
|
| I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression"
| is wrong-headed.
|
| Having some older friends might give you a deeper
| perspective.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| I am not implying that at all. People should be free to
| choose when to die, and people should be free to set
| conditions for their future wherein they no longer wish to
| live even if they could not express that at point.
|
| That's a personal choice. Anyone not interested in that
| won't have to do anything and can just wait for the end.
| teiferer wrote:
| > we should euthanize another human
|
| You are shiftinf the topic. This is about self-
| euthanization, assisted suicide. Not others.
|
| > Where do we draw the line?
|
| As written elsewhere, having to draw a line does not mean
| that the only reasonable conclusion is to make it illegal
| in general. It's a hard topic without easy answers. "Don't
| allow it" is an easy answer that doesn't do justice to the
| topics complexity.
|
| A good friend of mine passed away a year ago with an
| incurable disease, diagnosed 3 months before his death, and
| it was essentially guaranteed that he'd have to endure
| unbelievable suffering during the last weeks of those
| months. He didn't have the choice to end it early. It was
| heartbreaking.
|
| I for my part hope that I can choose myself when the time
| has come.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| It is not really a shift. The slippery slope is the heart
| of the debate. Once assisted suicide is allowed, the line
| between respecting autonomy and others making that
| decision blurs. Safeguards may help, but asking where to
| draw the line is the central problem.
| dxdm wrote:
| I'm not arguing either side, but I'd like to note that
| human societies have been drawing various lines dealing
| with the legal and ethical issues surrounding the death
| of other people in various stages of age, competency and
| guilt, usually without descending into a free-for-all
| killing frenzy.
|
| When things get bad, it was usually not the drawing of
| lines that did it, but the intention and underlying
| stance on the rights and indeed humanity of others. The
| line is not what makes the slope slippery, but a
| pervasive lack of empathy seems to do it. We also know
| that bad actors do not care about lines much.
|
| So I think that slippery slope is not a powerful argument
| on its own.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Where do we have an example of the medical community
| engaging in any sort of slippery slope in this regard?
|
| The politicians, yes. Auschwitz may return but it won't
| be voluntary.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Yes it. You are not the arbiter of what the heart of the
| debate is.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| I am freely able to set the tone and make arguments
| wherever I see fit in responding
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Sure, but it's obvious that many don't agree with your
| views.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| I am not sure the point of your comment. Do you have
| anything to add to the discussion?
|
| My parent comment has driven alot of valuable discussion
| (other than your comment)
| isodev wrote:
| My body my choice. And I shouldn't have to justify my
| choice. I'm not sure if it's country specific or religion
| based, but certain groups really can't grasp the fact
| that we have agency over our bodies and how we live (or
| not).
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Some places permit consent in advance, the person specifies
| the conditions but hands the evaluation of whether they have
| been met to the doctor.
| WA wrote:
| Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don't give a
| shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you
| solve this? When dementia isn't too far progressed, your life
| seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets
| worse, it's too late to realize this.
| pflenker wrote:
| You could express your wishes about how you would like to be
| treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head.
| That's already possible for other situations, like when you
| are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you
| alive, with no chance of recovery.
| 0xEF wrote:
| Having a living will is a great idea in general. My dad got
| a brain tumor and had no documentation on what he wanted do
| with his estate, in the event he became vegetative, etc. By
| the time he realized he needed one, it was too late for
| "sound mind judgement" and my mom had to go through this
| ridiculous legal process to ensure she held on to his
| assets and whatnot while she was directly caring for a
| dying man.
|
| Save your loved ones some grief, create a living will with
| a trusted lawyer, update it about once a year. It's worth
| it. There are so many insane snafus one can get into with
| estranged family members, the state/gov't, medical
| institutions, etc that make the situation even more
| difficult and stressful to deal with. Don't expect anyone
| coming out of the woodwork to act according to honor. They
| are vultures and know no such kindness.
| atonse wrote:
| You can create one with LegalZoom for very little money.
|
| It includes a one hour zoom session with an actual
| attorney to explain things.
|
| They make it so easy.
| esafak wrote:
| Unfortunately some people refuse to prepare because they
| don't want to think about death.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Even if you express this in a wish, but you probably don't
| remember it when you are deep into this, how does it get
| executed? I'm curious about this, so does the court
| overrule the current you with the previous you?
|
| I get it's easy with other diseases such as cancer, though.
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| You express it in writing in an advance medical
| directive.
| pflenker wrote:
| Same as with other similar agreements. A doctor needs to
| declare your mental fitness. When in doubt, a court gets
| involved. As a rule of thumb, if you are able to
| understand enough to getter law involved you're likely
| still mentally fit.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Being braindead is pretty different from having Alzheimers.
| How do we account for people who change their minds? Do we
| just forcibly murder them anyway?
| WA wrote:
| _> You could express your wishes about how you would like
| to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the
| head._
|
| You can't express in advance that you want to have assisted
| suicide.
|
| Your former self might express wishes, but what if your
| later self doesn't feel like this anymore? In a way, we can
| all get the same feeling when doing another round of "lose
| weight this year" new year's resolutions just to realize a
| couple weeks later that the former self wasn't that
| trustworthy to begin with (or was it the other way around,
| the future self can't be trusted?)
|
| Point is: you can wish for whatever you want, but dementia
| is probably a tough case and it shifts your priorities,
| making everything before obsolete and I'm not sure that
| people beginning to suffer from dementia ever find the
| right point in time to end life early.
| bityard wrote:
| Uh, new years resolutions are not exactly what I would
| call the ideal metaphor for assisted suicide.
|
| Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's
| suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one
| who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia.
| It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's
| hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my
| whole life, they don't recognize me, they say and do mean
| things to me and their grand-kids and neighbors all the
| time, and require 24x7 supervision to not hurt themselves
| or break everything in the room."
|
| Oh, and remember that in the US, all nursing homes for
| this kind of thing are for-profit companies backed by
| venture capital, meaning they are expensive as hell. Take
| your current middle-class apartment, shrink the size to
| just a bedroom (that you now have to share with someone
| else), and then quadruple the rent. Just a few years of
| that can decimate the life savings of the average retiree
| and/or their children's.
|
| I speak with some authority here because all of this
| happened to my father. He was "alive" in the last few
| years of his life, but not what anyone would call
| "living." I absolutely do not want that to happen to me.
| If it were legal in the US, I would absolutely opt for an
| assisted suicide plan for myself.
|
| There are ways to handle it that avoid all the
| "whatabouts" that you and others have already brought up.
| One rough draft of an example: 1) Have a lawyer write up
| a kind of will expressing my wishes. 2) Get three
| unbiased negative diagnoses to show I am of sound mind
| prior to signing the will. 3) Go in for regular testing
| (every year, maybe two). After each negative diagnosis,
| add another (witnessed and/or notarized) signature to the
| will. The will is not valid if testing or a signature is
| missed. 3) If there is ever a positive diagnosis, it must
| be confirmed by two other clinics. 4) If three years pass
| with doctors and clinical tests confirming increasing
| dementia symptoms along the way, the assisted suicide
| clause is invoked and I get to pass peacefully surrounded
| by loved ones instead of being a stressful burden on them
| for years or decades to come.
|
| Yes, there are details and unintended consequences that
| neither me nor anyone else can see ahead of time. Like
| everything else, they are dealt with as they come up. No,
| you won't convince me that your favorite corner case
| means the entire idea is invalid.
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| > Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's
| suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one
| who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia.
| It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's
| hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my
| whole life, they don't recognize me, they say and do mean
| things to me and their grand-kids and neighbors all the
| time, and require 24x7 supervision to not hurt themselves
| or break everything in the room."
|
| This is exactly it. It's like dealing with a curmudgeonly
| toddler with extreme agency and no self-awareness. The
| rest of your comment is so spot on or at least matches my
| experience. I'm sorry you had to go through it but you
| genuinely seem to have become stronger from it and I'm
| grateful you could share your experience with us.
| pflenker wrote:
| The same argument would apply to any other kind of will
| or testament. You need to update it frequently. It's not
| uncommon for people to change their mind quite late, and
| (at least in Germany) that's perfectly possible even
| until late. If people dispute this later change of mind a
| judge needs to get involved, and being married to one I
| can tell you that they treat each case differently and
| with the appropriate care.
|
| Arguably the best qualified person to decide what to do
| with Future You is Present You.
| kranke155 wrote:
| I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able
| to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree
| and leave you there.
|
| If you ended back in camp you'd be welcomed. If you didn't,
| that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and
| peaceful.
| troupo wrote:
| Death from hunger (esp. when you're frightened and don't
| understand what's happening) is neither comfortable nor
| comforting
| kranke155 wrote:
| Fascinating that you think someone with dementia would be
| suffering more from hunger then from their condition
| sapping away at them.
| lukas099 wrote:
| If I was starving to death, the acute sensation of hunger
| would override everything else in my mind.
| kranke155 wrote:
| You ever hung out with someone in deep dementia ?
| AlexeyBrin wrote:
| Unfortunately someone with advanced dementia does not
| know if she has eaten or not. Most of the time there will
| be no eating, unless someone else puts food in your
| mouth.
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| That wasn't the case with my father, who had a pretty
| good appetite up until his last few weeks.
| kranke155 wrote:
| That's literally what it says in the story though. That
| it would only happen if the person won't eat by
| themselves.
| leakycap wrote:
| I'm sorry for your first-hand experience, but I also need
| to remind you that 1 first-hand experience does not
| translate well to the overall population of people
| experiencing dementia.
| jrs235 wrote:
| But seriously, how do you know that?
| troupo wrote:
| Neither you nor I know what the person with dementia is
| suffering from.
|
| What you call "comforting" is leaving a helpless prison
| in the wilderness to succumb to thirst, hunger or
| predators
| kranke155 wrote:
| Thirst and hunger. They're meant to die a peaceful death
| so pretty sure no predators involved.
|
| Go to a dementia facility and hang out with your those
| people. You will see suffering.
| troupo wrote:
| My grandmother died of dementia.
|
| If you think that "cannot feed themselves" is when a
| person is already completely gone and it's okay to "leave
| them under a tree to die of hunger and thirst", I've got
| news for you.
| sph wrote:
| I have this childhood memory of my neighbour's dog, that
| grew old and one day decided to go out in the woods and die
| peacefully. They found it a few days later.
|
| I wish to remain so lucid when the time comes, that I can
| go sit under a tree and let myself go like that old dog.
| Perhaps I should leave a note.
| mock-possum wrote:
| I always think of that scene from Donnie Darko - where he
| says when his dog got sick, she went to hide under the
| porch. "To die?" His therapist prompts him. "To be
| _alone_ " he corrects her pointedly. [0]
|
| That's kind of what I want when I die too - I don't think
| I want to be around other people when it happens. I want
| to have my final moments to face death on my own, without
| feeling like I have to perform for other people.
|
| ... that said, give me another 60 years to chew on it and
| maybe I'll feel different.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/8j1IMBM-QyE?si=jfCe9YUvKW_t5m5e
| raffael_de wrote:
| Or they'll treat you with a daily oil bath and feed you
| tender coconut water ... until few days later your kidney's
| blow out.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal
| razeh wrote:
| I think people tend to underestimate the risks in
| allowing suicide --- here's a blurb from the linked
| article:
|
| However, social acceptance may lead to more egregious
| abuses: the issue gained a higher profile in early 2010,
| when an 80-year-old man escaped after discovering his
| intended fate and heard his family members discussing how
| they were going to "share" his lands, and took refuge in
| a relative's home.
| kranke155 wrote:
| Using exceptions to make rules is dumb.
| hrimfaxi wrote:
| Isn't it only exceptional because assisted suicide is
| relatively rare worldwide?
| prmoustache wrote:
| What has been described above is not suicide.
| raffael_de wrote:
| People also underestimate the risks in allowing sexual
| intercourse, driving a car, playing football and doing
| ice baths ...
| voakbasda wrote:
| That's not suicide. That's a conspiracy to commit murder.
| beedeebeedee wrote:
| Yes, and that is one of the reasons our culture has made
| practices like these taboo- it can give the veneer of
| respectability to despicable acts
| voakbasda wrote:
| And why there should be more nuance to the issue:
| legalizing suicide is not the same as legalizing assisted
| suicide.
|
| I want to be free to die on my own terms. Conversely, I
| do not want the healthcare system to be allowed to even
| suggest it.
| Davidzheng wrote:
| suicide already is legal -> if you succeed there's no one
| to prosecute so the question is just absurd. One can only
| discuss legality of attempted suicide.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| You're assuming someone in shape to do it correctly.
| Someone who is choosing it for medical reasons might not
| have the strength and motor control, especially if they
| don't have access to suitable tools.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| The healthcare system should not be allowed to suggest
| it. And it should require an independent review if you
| request it. That doesn't mean the system shouldn't be
| allowed to provide it.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _people tend to underestimate the risks in allowing
| suicide_
|
| People obsess over this risk. It--and religious
| opposition--are the reason it's only an option for those
| who can travel to and hospice in Switzerland.
|
| > _social acceptance may lead to more egregious abuses_
|
| Do we have any evidence societies that have tolerated
| suicide had higher rates of murder? Switzerland doesn't
| strike me as a hotbed of senior murder, for example.
| pell wrote:
| If you don't make it back you would die of starvation and
| lack of water. These are some of the worst ways of dying.
| What do you find comforting and peaceful about it? The
| person has been abandoned by their community and could
| suffer terribly for days.
| kranke155 wrote:
| The idea is the tree is not too far from camp. It should
| hours not days to return. And I suspect they would check
| on them.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Give me a timer. Like the previous discussion of a red button
| it verifies identity. I can set the timer for whatever I
| want, if it reaches zero it peacefully kills me. Dementia,
| set the timer for say 1 month. If my mind is too far gone to
| reset it it will run down.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _how do you solve this?_
|
| You don't. You try to take care of yourself before you're
| gone. If you miss that opportunity, you and your loved ones
| suffer. Same as it is for everyone now.
| basisword wrote:
| >> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related
| illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.
|
| I don't think this is fair. I know several people who died with
| Alzheimer's and although their final years were very difficult
| for them nobody has a bad opinion of them. It's certainly a
| strain on the family but intimating that if you have dementia
| you better kill yourself or your legacy will be ruined is not
| ok.
| h33t-l4x0r wrote:
| Not to mention that you won't _really_ care what people think
| of you because you 'll be dead.
| 0xEF wrote:
| I think the suggestion needs more thought, but I don't
| necessarily disagree with the idea of making my exit before
| the dementia really sets in. I've directly cared for two
| family members who suffered from it (collective 5 years of my
| life, which I'd like to think gives me a pretty good view of
| what the disease can actually do to people) and I decided for
| myself that I'd rather be quietly killed than put my loved
| ones through what I went through as a caretaker. While also
| trying to work a full-time job and maintain my own sanity
| while I watched people I'd known all my life be destroyed,
| becoming tortured versions of themselves like something out
| of a body-snatchers horror film.
|
| We, the loved ones, made the decisions to keep them going and
| I wonder how fair that was to them. We tend to not want to
| let people go, choosing to sacrifice quality of life for the
| sufferer and those around them for, what, a few fleeting
| moments of possible clarity? The opportunity to say goodbye
| to someone who may or may not even understand what is
| happening?
|
| The events I went through with my family hurt us in ways that
| will not likely ever heal, despite effort on at least a few
| of our part, and it did leave me wondering if I would put my
| son or wife through that should something similar ever happen
| to me. I decided against it, seeing as I am at the age where
| these are very real possibilities. In the US, we have DNRs
| ("do not resuscitate") and living wills that offer prior
| directives, but something like assisted suicide is not
| allowed here unless some very extreme circumstances are met,
| because insurance companies and hospitals make more money
| from suffering people than dead ones. I'm a strong advocate
| of the right to die, but it is a decision that needs to be
| made some extensive consideration and documentation before
| one actually needs it.
| thunky wrote:
| Sorry if I'm missing something but how do you plan to exit
| on your own terms if it's not allowed, and your only legal
| tools are DNRs and living wills?
|
| It seems like DIY methods could be risky to your family if
| you're already impacted by the disease, and your own
| competency is called into question.
| 0xEF wrote:
| You're not missing anything. I did not want to get too
| deep into it here, because let's be honest; thinking
| about having to take our own life is a really, really
| dark place to go, even if it with the best of intentions.
| I'm not really sure that HN is the place for that type of
| discussion, at least not on any detailed level.
|
| At the moment, I have standing orders in place that no
| heroic measures or treatments should be enacted in the
| event that I am in a terminal or vegitative state. I've
| communicated clearly to family members that would be
| responsible for my decision making that things are not to
| be prolonged or dragged out for the sake of emotional
| contrivance.
|
| Without knowing how we will die, it's really quite
| impossible to plan around it, of course. My comment, more
| or less, expresses my desire to have more control over my
| exit in the event that I am put in a position to become a
| massive burden on those I love; this is something I
| consider a reasonable and rational request, where the
| folks that make our laws do not. None of that changes
| without discussing and sharing our viewpoints on the
| matter, though, which I suppose was all that I was doing.
| thunky wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I asked because I've had similar
| thoughts, and I'm not sure what can be done about it. I
| believe that there is usually a time window where it's
| possible to know what's coming your way and have the
| capacity to do something about it. Easier said than done.
|
| Good luck to you.
| jotaen wrote:
| > intimating that if you have dementia you better kill
| yourself [...] is not ok.
|
| Parent comment doesn't say this, does it?
| basisword wrote:
| Neither does mine unless you leave out a key phrase and
| replace it with [...]. The point is that having dementia
| does not necessarily "sour everyone's view of you" as the
| parent said.
| jotaen wrote:
| Disagreeing with the "sour everyone's view of you" aspect
| is one thing, but you called out parent comment for a
| potential conclusion that they neither made nor
| intimated.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Jason Zweig, Kahneman's friend, wrote about this and many other
| thoughts Kahneman would have gone through in making the
| decision. As Barbara Tversky, who is an emerita
| professor of psychology at Stanford University, wrote in an
| online essay shortly after [Kahneman's] death, their last days
| in Paris had been magical... One afternoon,
| according to her online essay, she asked what [Kahneman] would
| like to do. "I want to learn something," he said.
| Kahneman knew the psychological importance of happy endings. In
| repeated experiments, he had demonstrated what he called the
| peak-end rule: Whether we remember an experience as pleasurable
| or painful doesn't depend on how long it felt good or bad, but
| rather on the peak and ending intensity of those emotions. "It
| was a matter of some consternation to Danny's friends and
| family that he seemed."
|
| https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assis...
| / https://archive.ph/fEWrc, _The Last Decision by the World 's
| Leading Thinker on Decisions_ (March, 2025).
| RickJWagner wrote:
| I have to wonder if they could have had one more magical day.
| Or maybe two.
|
| Maybe in a different city, or with different friends.
|
| If he did "learn something new", could he have incrementally
| improved upon it, using his brilliant mind? Could he have
| made one more wise observation?
|
| It seems he likely left something on the table.
| jfengel wrote:
| You're always going to leave something on the table. One of
| life's trickier lessons is learning when too much
| optimization becomes less optimal.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Kahneman's family & friends who knew beforehand apparently
| did object.
|
| You should read the piece by Jason Zweig, if you haven't.
| The decision was deeply personal and was most certainly not
| an endorsement of euthanasia. ...
| Kahneman's final email said: "Not surprisingly, some of
| those who love me would have preferred for me to wait until
| it is obvious that my life is not worth extending. But I
| made my decision precisely because I wanted to avoid that
| state, so it had to appear premature. I am grateful to the
| few with whom I shared early, who all reluctantly came
| round to support me." Kahneman's friend Annie
| Duke, a decision theorist and former professional poker
| player, published a book in 2022 titled "Quit: The Power of
| Knowing When to Walk Away." In it, she wrote, "Quitting on
| time will usually feel like quitting too early."
| She is frustrated by his decision. "There's a big
| difference between it feeling early and it actually being
| too early," she says. "You're not terminal, you're fine.
| Why aren't you taking the outside view? Why aren't you
| listening to people who will give you good objective
| advice? Why are you doing this?" Paul Slovic, a
| psychologist at the University of Oregon who befriended
| Kahneman more than 50 years ago, says, "Danny was the type
| of person who would think long and hard about things, so I
| figured he must have thought about it very slowly and
| deliberatively. Of course, those of us who spend our lives
| studying decisions, we think a lot about the reasons for
| those decisions. But often the reasons aren't reasons.
| They're feelings."
| LogicFailsMe wrote:
| You know how the story is going to end if you stick around
| for it. I would make the same choice he made. And I would
| do it before I was ruled mentally incompetent to do so. My
| wife and I have already had conversations on doing exactly
| this having watched multiple family members succumb to
| dementia. It's horrific and the state salivates at
| institutionalizing you for the final lap.
|
| No cure for getting old and no cure for dementia on the
| useful horizon. Having made it to 90 intact, he had knocked
| living out of the park already. I completely understand his
| thinking here and support it. He likely could have gone a
| little longer, but he also might have had a stroke or some
| other nonfatal cataclysmic event that took away his
| options.
| Jolter wrote:
| Not all Alzheimers patients get aggressive/angry. I know it
| happens, I've known one person who did almost exactly what you
| describe above. He lived with his partner of many years, and
| seemed superficially very cogent and together. It was just that
| he started to see insults and conspiracies against his person
| everywhere around him. Not until later did the cognitive and
| memory decline become apparent, giving him a diagnosis that
| explained his bad behavior.
|
| But my personal anecdata puts that man in a minority. None of
| my older relatives with Alzheimer's have become aggressive or
| troublesome. Worry, anxiety and confusion seem to be much more
| common states of mind, which admittedly also doesn't seem like
| such a fun way to spend your days.
| rolandog wrote:
| I read your comment and it strikes me as a cautionary tale that
| can be used by bad people to justify or push for eugenics: _"
| they took him; they said he developed Alzheimer's"_.
|
| As we're currently seeing happen: whatever is left unsaid in
| the body of the law can and will be abused by evil people to
| concentrate more power (even if the spirit of the law advocates
| for something kind).
|
| So, we have to normalize some sort of stress tests for laws...
| because you sure don't want to be dragged against your will
| because you're poor.
| sillyfluke wrote:
| Yes, there is a danger of that in general. I think someone
| made a movie in Japan about the subject, specifically because
| there is a culture of the elderly not wanting "to be a burden
| on the younger generation." Some said it hit closer to
| reality than science fiction because of that specific
| cultural characteristic in Japan. It also supports Kahnemen's
| position of pulling the plug when "the going is good" from a
| ethical point of view, since it leaves no doubt of intention.
| netsharc wrote:
| This was also mentioned in the debate about euthanasia in
| the UK; that it could lead to pressuring elderly relatives
| to off themselves. I can imagine the pressure might not
| even be explicit, it could be implied, and maybe not even
| consciously, but through behavior.
|
| Like a more subtle form of Shakespeare's "Will no one rid
| me of this meddlesome priest?".
| ipaddr wrote:
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3
| wxq...
| ipaddr wrote:
| Leading cause of death in older populations in Canada is
| assisted suicide. People have killed themselves for not
| getting timely services and the medical professionals bring
| it up as an option.
| HighGoldstein wrote:
| > I read your comment and it strikes me as a cautionary tale
| that can be used by bad people to justify or push for
| eugenics: "they took him; they said he developed
| Alzheimer's".
|
| Isn't the point of eugenics to influence population genetic
| trends? Not a very effective strategy to kill people when
| they already have probably 2 generations of descendents.
| rolandog wrote:
| I think you are right -- definitionwise. But I think you're
| not thinking about the impacts it can have when grossly
| misused as I hinted, and how this might be one tool in the
| cruelty toolbelt of oppressive regimes.
|
| By targeting their support networks, the "baddies"
| effectively end up making the new generations risk for
| impoverishment greater (can't let the kids at grandma's,
| have to pay for daycare, lose access to nutritious
| inexpensive meals, etc).
| AQuantized wrote:
| > You really don't want to end up with dementia and related
| illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.
|
| This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though
| the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you
| functionally lose your personhood and then die.
|
| Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way
| for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes
| irrational because of an illness.
| sillyfluke wrote:
| The parent described someone who went above and beyond the
| norm of other members in his community in his constant
| positive interaction with his neighbors, collegues, and
| former students. It is highly likely this kind of person
| would give a considerable shit if he knew he would become a
| nightmare for the same community.
|
| There may be others reading in the thread who also can relate
| to the personality of the teacher and may care about their
| affect on others when they are "not themselves".
| dns_snek wrote:
| There's a difference between "I don't want the disease
| because I don't want to become a menace to others" (what
| you're saying) and "I don't want the disease because it
| would make me lose social status" (what the original
| commenter said).
| wjnc wrote:
| I am left wondering. Can't people (in general) understand
| that Alzheimer's changes a person fundamentally,
| irreversibly and forever until death follows? Many
| positive traits of personality disappear, the negative
| starts to dominate, I think mainly from fear and a
| subconscious awareness of what is being lost. That's
| pretty much 101 of grieving when a loved one is struck
| with Alzheimer's. The person has left. You continue
| caring for a body / a different person because of the
| relation you have to a former them. But please don't
| connect the persons past deeds and being to the actions
| with Alzheimer's.
|
| For myself: I hope for assisted suicide before
| Alzheimer's. I value me for me. Not-me I don't value, and
| Alzheimer's does not improve not-me over me. But people
| who cannot separate me from not-me (with whom not-me
| loses status for me)... I don't care about them!
| (Philosophical mood.)
| whatshisface wrote:
| Very few people would choose to be unpopular, and
| unfortunately this type of behavior is decided by brain
| function, things like depression, from the beginning.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| Either and or both?
|
| I don't want to go that way either. If I start losing my
| mind to Alzheimer's or dementia I don't want to slowly
| turn unrecognizable to those who love me, fuck that shit.
| Give me something suitable and I'll do it my damn self if
| needs be.
| wazdra wrote:
| Valuing how others remember you is definitely a motivation in
| life for many. I respect that it is not your own, respect
| that it may be mine. It is by no means "absurd".
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over
| objective goods. This is the vice of "human respect". Human
| beings do not have a final say about others. They can
| opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.
|
| Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it,
| but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave
| mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I
| am hated for that, then so be it. Sad, but better to be
| hated for being a good person than loved for being a
| mediocrity or a knave.
|
| And to off yourself out of concern with how people remember
| you is a condemnation of our society, our lack of charity,
| our lack of magnanimity, and our selfish prioritization of
| convenience. Full throttle consumerism.
| tirant wrote:
| The definition of good is probably the closest to doing
| the opposite of inflicting pain on others. There's very
| little chance that you will be hated by being good. So
| definitely behaving or being good is not so different
| than behaving in a way that other people don't hate you.
| beedeebeedee wrote:
| > There's very little chance that you will be hated by
| being good
|
| Jesus, Socrates, anyone who stands up against an immoral
| hierarchy. Rethink your thought
| dkural wrote:
| To go down this rabbit hole, presumably someone is hating
| somebody in this immoral hierarchy though? If everyone is
| happy with everyone, where's the immoral part? I do think
| the OP is right that in many circumstances of everyday
| life, being good usually correlates with being
| appreciated by people you actually have relationships
| with. Of course, this being real life, there are
| exceptions. However, while a child may complain and claim
| they hate you for not letting them have too much candy,
| they do love and appreciate you in a deeper way for
| taking care of them.
| beedeebeedee wrote:
| Jesus, Socrates, et al, are extreme examples that clearly
| debunk the comment made above. There are much more mild
| versions of that everywhere and everyday. Being 'good' in
| no way guarantees you will be loved. In fact, if you have
| integrity you will probably end up butting heads with
| people who are 'not good', and those folks will likely
| not hesitate to do underhanded and manipulative things to
| make you hated by others and not just them. Thankfully
| that is not everyone, but it is childish to believe that
| somehow being 'good' will make you beloved. If that were
| the case, being 'good' would be the easy choice that
| everyone makes. It is not.
| hkpack wrote:
| Or sometimes people love you for inflicting pain on
| others. Look at current political figures beloved by
| their cult.
|
| Or there are others trying to do good things and being
| hated for taking a courage to challenge things.
| perching_aix wrote:
| > It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over
| objective goods.
|
| Care to name even a single objective good, and explain
| how exactly it is objectively good?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I would posit that caring for helpless infants is an
| objective good. It's not clear to me how I'd explain that
| to someone who doesn't inherently understand it.
| perching_aix wrote:
| That's a bit contradictory, isn't it? If caring for
| helpless infants is an objective good only for those who
| inherently understand why that is, then that's a
| dependence on the observer's understanding and so it is
| subjective.
|
| There's a world of difference between something being
| objectively a certain way, and between feeling really
| strongly some way about something and thinking that
| everyone else reasonable would feel the same way too.
| There are things that are encoded into (most of) our very
| instincts, things we (for the most part) find absolutely
| common sense, but this doesn't make them objective. I
| wish language was able to succinctly express these
| different levels of "being on the same page", but alas I
| don't believe it does at the moment, and abusing the word
| "objective" I can't say I love as an alternative.
| dpark wrote:
| I agree with you that it is good to care for helpless
| infants. The fact that this cannot be clearly explained
| to someone who doesn't inherently agree indicates that
| this is not an _objective_ good, though.
|
| The devil's advocate would probably also ask how it would
| be objectively good to protect baby Hilter, knowing that
| protecting his innocent infant life would lead directly
| to the deaths of millions.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Is caring for a helpless infant objectively good if it is
| infected with an extremely virulent plague that will
| undoubtedly kill any human who comes in contact with it,
| or a human who comes into contact with them, or them,
| many layers deep? What if that infant has 2 days to live
| no matter what, but millions of people will die if it's
| cared for?
|
| Objective good does not exist, context is king.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| What does "care for" mean, precisely? Is circumcising or
| baptizing them objectively good, so that they don't burn
| in hell for all eternity? What about shaping their skull
| in a more pleasing form? If they have ambiguous but
| otherwise working genitals, should you do surgery to
| assign them a clear sex? Or unto more mundane affairs, is
| it objectively good to give them baby formula instead of
| mother's milk, or maybe the other way around? Is it
| objectively good to take them from their parents and care
| for them yourself if the parents are not caring for them?
| How do you objectively determine if the parents are
| caring for them?
| flextheruler wrote:
| The point is he deserved to be remembered well but due to
| recency bias and the severity of whatever he did during
| the end stages of his disease he will not be. I
| personally suffered immense trauma in my early 20s when I
| moved to a really cheap place. My parents refused to
| believe me that there was a black mold and general mold
| problem in the place I was living and that it was causing
| me psychological distress and flaring up my eczema.
| Despite all evidence that I had they dismissed it because
| I had told them I was depressed beforehand. They are not
| very in touch with empathy or compassion or mental
| health. Very old-fashioned view that these things are
| character flaws which are not to be spoken of. Anyways
| they dismissed my concerns did not read my messages or
| view my pictures of personal property being destroyed and
| the landlord not responding to me, the whole rental was
| illegitimate and I had identified that early on they even
| ignored that I got a scalp infection which I had to take
| oral anti-fungal medication to get rid of. The
| preponderance of evidence was so overwhelming, but for
| whatever reason they could not admit I had been right and
| that they were wrong and refused to help me and actively
| discouraged me from taking legal action or even to move
| home for months. Eventually I was blessed with an
| extended relative who gave me shelter. During one of the
| worst parts of this period my parents even went so far as
| to assert that what was actually happening to me was the
| onset of paranoid schizophrenia. I was close to the right
| age and sex for it to happen. I knew that paranoid
| schizophrenics often become homeless and violent and the
| general awfulness of the condition. If it was not for my
| own investigation that there was no family history of it
| and a friend who believed what I was saying and told me
| that I needed to leave the house and then finally
| extended family I had a plan to no longer exist. This was
| partially out of not wanting to be remembered badly, but
| also so many other things like; not wanting to hurt my
| loved ones, not wanting to hurt strangers, not wanting to
| slowly degrade into an unstable and potentially dangerous
| person and of course the median life expectancy for that
| condition is so low. I lacked the constitution to allow
| myself to become someone who would likely damage the
| world and severely damage those close to me so my logical
| conclusion based on a false premise during those couple
| days was to nip it in the bud so to speak as it's a
| progressive condition. My relationship with my parents
| has not been the same since, but how could it be. I am
| forever indebted to a friend and extended family... they
| quite literally saved my life.
|
| The end point being that with the parents I have there
| was nearly a guaranteed outcome of only objectively bad
| things happening for me, for them, for people around me.
| During that state I saw my plan as honorable and wrote it
| down in what I was to leave to explain my actions.
| LocalH wrote:
| There is no such thing as objectivity in human
| experience. Every single thing, even attempts to be
| objective, are all filtered through the subjective
| experience of life. Our brains interpret objective
| reality and provide us a subjective translation.
| ares623 wrote:
| A god need not concern himself with the opinions of men
| dkga wrote:
| This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing
| to protect it in the face [dementia|physical
| disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| What does protecting life look like when one is literally
| losing everything about themselves that they value?
| sillyfluke wrote:
| As I mentioned in a another comment, framing it as "how one
| is remembered" is leading to pointless tangents in this
| thread.
|
| The important point is this: are you causing emotional,
| psychological, physical distress _in the real world_ to
| those you care about when you have this disease? Yes or no.
| That 's what I care about. Whether they are able to
| remember me well despite that, or poorly because of that
| should be completely secondary.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| That's irrelevant here. What is relevant is that we have
| a contempt for human life and a lack of charity. The
| teacher was not at fault for his condition. We should
| learn magnanimity.
|
| Sure, we can think about how the burdens of caring for
| our family can be lessened as they age, or how we may
| help reduce that burden for our family, but family does
| have the duty to care for its members, and to place such
| considerations above the intrinsic value of human life is
| very sad indeed.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| > The teacher was not at fault for his condition. We
| should learn magnanimity.
|
| This is equally true of conditions like paranoid
| schizophrenia or psychopathy. Sometimes a person is just
| born with wiring that makes you dangerous to others. Does
| this mean that everyone around them must have the
| magnanimity and charity to them attacking people at
| random?
| teiferer wrote:
| Yes, everybody should be interested in getting them
| treatment, just like they are interested in getting
| people treatment who have leukemia, were born with a
| malfunctioning liver or need an artificial hip. Instead,
| they get thrown in prison for the rest of their life
| because they are evil and we all can feel good about
| having made the city safer.
| watwut wrote:
| People with leukemia want treatment and are willing to
| suffer uncomfortable treatment to get cured.
|
| Paranoid schizophrenia have lower compliance rates and
| fairly large collateral damage. Psychopathy is a trait
| not a disease, but again, issue is that they do not
| cooperate and dont want to "cure". Psychopaths are fine
| as they are from their point of view.
|
| It is just their victims who mind.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| This is not contempt for human life. It is a recognition
| that sometimes as the body deteriorates that the quality
| of life becomes negative.
|
| I watched both of my parents deteriorate in the end. The
| morphine blotted out my father's ability to form long
| term memory, if it wasn't in front of him things were
| like they had been before so much morphine was needed.
| There can be no value in such "life".
|
| As far as I'm concerned not allowing people to end the
| suffering is a form of sadism.
|
| I suspect this thread will go like many have in the past:
| there are two camps. The first has never seen a bad death
| and has a lot of opposition to people choosing to end
| their life. The second has seen a bad death and a lot of
| people would choose suicide before reaching that point.
| If it is a contempt for human life that means people have
| contempt for their own life and that doesn't make much
| sense. I can look at myself: I have been dealt a
| presumably genetic killer, I saw what it did to my mother
| and I will not allow that to happen to me. Do I have
| contempt for my own life because I expect the end to be
| suicide?
| jkhdigital wrote:
| This is about assisted suicide. You can argue all day
| long about how you have the right to end your own life,
| but the real issue is whether you have the right to grant
| another person immunity from charges of homicide for
| facilitating your death. That is an entirely different
| beast.
| darkmighty wrote:
| It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an
| irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes
| on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!).
| I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole
| (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we
| shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life
| excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble
| opinion. I defend the right to die in the face of incurable
| diseases that cause a lot of anguish and suffering.
|
| I think clinging to life is partially rooted in an
| egoist/solipsistic metaphysics that you yourself are all
| that matters (to yourself at least, of course). Relax,
| we're just a small part of the cosmos. Ancient and immortal
| :)
| flextheruler wrote:
| Ancient and immortal? So eternal return?
| jonhohle wrote:
| The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient
| to others we should encourage their death? What good is
| compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could
| just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable
| diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service
| workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups
| cause a lot of anguish and suffering.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| No. But I think that people should be able to decide when
| they want to end their lives if it is because of pain
| that won't get any better, a terminal illness that causes
| pain etc. while they have all of their cognitive
| functions.
|
| But we should put guardrails around if the reason for
| assisted suicide is not pressure from relatives,
| depression, etc.
| jkhdigital wrote:
| How many "legitimate" assisted suicides are worth one
| questionable case? There are no foolproof guardrails, and
| you're inviting moral hazard.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| Doctor to a high degree of certainty know which diseases
| are terminal or cause a deteriorating condition that will
| cause pain where the person has all of their cognitive
| ability. That's why I carved out Alzheimer's or dementia.
| ncruces wrote:
| They should. But also, the easier you make it, the more
| social pressure they'll feel to just do it.
| teiferer wrote:
| And that's what makes it a hard topic. Because you need
| to draw a line, and everybody will have opinions about
| the line's position. Rightfully.
|
| But it being a hard topic does not imply the easy
| solution of banning it.
| jkhdigital wrote:
| I would argue that banning it is not an "easy solution"
| but in fact the hardest solution.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Nobody's saying that anyone should be encouraged to die.
| That is an evil thing. But that does not mean that people
| should not be permitted to choose to die vs suffer.
| jonhohle wrote:
| The thread topic was about terminating the life of
| someone suffering from dementia who likely didn't have
| advanced directive. I read this comment in that context -
| that it would nto be voluntary, but in cases where the
| person couldn't choose for themselves.
| jkhdigital wrote:
| There's no bright line. Suffering is a subjective
| experience. Lack of prohibition is tantamount to
| encouragement.
| gausswho wrote:
| I'm afraid that's a logical leap too far. To allow does
| not equate with to encourage.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as
| though the opinions of other people of you are what matter
| when you functionally lose your personhood and then die._
|
| They do matter.
|
| Being concerned with how your behavior affects your family or
| your community, and the opinion they have of you, above your
| own self-interest, is how good parents, good friends, good
| citizens, and so on, are made.
| dns_snek wrote:
| > Being concerned with how your behavior affects your
| family or your community, and the opinion they have of you,
| above your own self-interest, is how good parents, good
| friends, good citizens, and so on, are made.
|
| You've changed the meaning behind the original comment in a
| subtle but important way. The original commenter wasn't
| concerned about their effects on other people, they were
| concerned about how the disease would ruin their public
| image. Maybe they didn't mean that but it's what they
| wrote.
|
| This distinction matters because those people whose top
| priority is their public perception (i.e. social status)
| are never "good people". It's normal to care about your
| social status to some degree but it shouldn't be the first
| thing you consider.
| Noaidi wrote:
| My brother had schizophrenia. No one thought well of him. I
| guess he should have killed himself as well by the logic some
| are professing on here. Oh, he tried, but he ended up dying
| of heart disease.
|
| > Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good
| way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes
| irrational because of an illness.
|
| Yes, this is the focus. Science has stalled when it comes to
| neurological disorders. But the response is love and
| understanding. I do not understand how someone would "sour"
| on a person because they have an illness. A very absurd
| conclusion indeed.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Dementia and Alzheimer is not something that can simply be
| managed throught treatment. It is an inexorable descent
| into suffering for both the person and its entourage with
| absolutely zero hope of getting better. At best in the last
| stages you get very short glimpses of normality within
| hours of confusions, frustrations, anger and pain.
|
| If I am ever diagnosed with one of those, I absolutely want
| the chance to end my life before I reach a stage I become a
| burden to my loved ones and can't give a trustable consent.
| I'd rather go too soon than too late.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yup. Ask me if I want to live. If I'm unable to answer
| and it's not reasonably expected that I will be able to
| answer in the future then the answer is no. I am the mind
| inside, not the body outside. If the mind is gone that's
| it, the body is worthless.
| Noaidi wrote:
| I've had a lot of people suffer in my life from health
| conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease,
| and cancer. And I've had to take care of them all at
| different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift?
| Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it's a burden?
|
| If you think you'll be a burden on your loved ones can we
| really say they're your loved ones? This is a serious
| question. If you're thinking that you'll be a burden do
| you think that these people really love you?
|
| At least I would want to let them use experimental drugs,
| or do anything to further the cause of curing
| Alzheimer's.
|
| But again, this is all far from the original article
| about an old man who decided to die because well, we
| don't really know, he just didn't see the point of living
| anymore.
| saltcured wrote:
| As a caregiver and survivor to family members with mental
| illness and dementia, yes I would say that someone can be
| a loved one and a burden. These aren't places on a single
| dimension, but totally different dimensions that can mix
| in amazing and terrible ways.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer
| or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is
| that a person who suffers from this is simply not the
| person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't
| remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They
| change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state
| of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up
| in a place that they don't recognize or remember ever
| living in, nor remembering how they got there. Their life
| essentially becomes a series of TikTok reels in which
| they are the main actor, or a vivid dream. Not only are
| they not the same "self" that you loved, they are usually
| not even a coherent "self" beyond a few tens of minutes.
|
| And, just to make everything as heartwrenching as
| possible, in this series of short reels their mind is
| swiping through, they occasionally become the person you
| had loved, for some minutes. And you know that these
| moments will never get more common, only rarer, but you
| can't help but think that they're "still in there".
|
| It is my firm belief that any sense of "me" would be long
| dead by this time. Keeping my body and scraps of my
| consciousness alive only to torment my loved ones,
| caregivers, and neighbors would be a cruelty that would
| serve no purpose. I hope that I don't ever have to make
| this choice, but I also hope that, if I am ever
| diagnosed, I will have the chance to make this choice and
| avoid such suffering.
| pas wrote:
| the conclusion is true, though obviously the worst part is
| that this guy spent at least a year in varying states of
| despair, anger, and even worse psychological terrors.
|
| you don't want dementia because it damages and hurts you and
| everything and everyone around you
|
| (my grandpa physically attacked grandma multiple times in his
| last year)
| ratelimitsteve wrote:
| idk man whether the people I love hate me matters to me...
| carefulfungi wrote:
| In my experience having had a parent suffer this way, you
| lose them before they are dead and you grieve along the way.
| I can understand the "souring" phrasing - in that there is
| less affection for the altered person in the present even
| while feeling a duty for their care and a deep love for who
| they were.
|
| I'm grateful for this story - it's powerful to see examples
| of autonomy at end of life - and contrasts starkly with the
| experiences many of us have with aging parents. End of life,
| at least in the US, can be deeply flawed and misery for all.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| It's not so absurd. The only afterlife that exists (in a
| materialist sense) is what other people think of you. The
| only part of 'you' still around us quite literally just a
| memory in someone's head. That's not nothing.
|
| Whether we should care about that or not is a philosophical
| conversation, I suppose. I would take the side of if we care
| about what people think about us when we are alive, surely we
| should care what they think of us when we are dead.
| Otherwise, we only value their opinion of us as a function of
| what they will do for/to us, which seems not great.
| doetoe wrote:
| To more precisely represent the words of the person you're
| replying to, you should have said "memories" not "opinions".
| ZpJuUuNaQ5 wrote:
| >You really don't want to end up with dementia and related
| illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.
|
| I completely agree that the disease is horrible, but your
| conclusion is bizarre. When you are in that condition, how
| anyone views you is the least of your worries.
| supportengineer wrote:
| Is your position that you don't personally care how people
| remember you?
| ZpJuUuNaQ5 wrote:
| Yes, you are absolutely correct.
| mynameisash wrote:
| Do you also not care how people think of you now?
| ZpJuUuNaQ5 wrote:
| Of course I don't. Life is a short, temporary experience,
| and I don't want to spend this time wondering what others
| think of me. It does not matter at all. I am nothing,
| just a briefly conscious lump of cells. I will die and
| turn to dust, just like about 100 billion of others
| before me. Nothing that I say, think, dream, experience,
| do, or how I act or look like will ever matter.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Live your life for you not for others opinions which are
| fleeting anyways.
| mynameisash wrote:
| How would you square building and maintaining flourishing
| relationships if you don't care for others?
| pessimizer wrote:
| No. Treat other people well and don't live as if you were
| the only person in the universe who matters.
| sillyfluke wrote:
| Framing it as an obsession of rememberance or legacy
| distracts from the more crucial point: the fact that you will
| be causing chaotic emotional, psychological and physical
| distress _in the real world_ to those you cared about. Again
| we should stop framing it as some weird obession with legacy
| and instead stick to the facts on the ground.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| I would say that this is a societal problem, not an individual
| one. Society needs to do better in taking care of people who do
| slip by the wayside, with mental illness and diseases like
| Alzheimer's.
| supportengineer wrote:
| I agree with you, I would not want people to remember me that
| way.
|
| Folks I know who have passed on also wanted to be remembered
| when they were strong, not when they were ill.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| A society that sours on you due to an illness that's totally
| out of your control seems a little inconsiderate to put it
| mildly.
| bityard wrote:
| I don't think anyone was suggesting that it would be
| society's call to make.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| Well sure -- I'm not talking about euthanasia, I'm talking
| about compassion towards the aging. An 80 year old who has
| dementia needs community more than ever. If you've been
| there for your community and their opinion of your turns
| when you age, what is the purpose of community?
| dbZJtFuAXUrVLmY wrote:
| This comment really bothers me. I am not put off by the idea
| that the memory of a person is worth protecting, what I am put
| off by is the suggestion that death is a good option here, or
| that death is better than having lived those 3 years of life.
| The idea that when someone loses the capacity to retain their
| reputation and dignity it would be better for them and others
| that they were dead and that they have nothing good to offer is
| such a dangerous one and is just wrong. It applies to many
| people who are not near their end of life too. I am really pro
| assisted suicide as a way of shortening suffering when made as
| a conscious decision by people of sound mind, but comments like
| these make me very very uneasy.
| bityard wrote:
| > I am really pro assisted suicide as a way of shortening
| suffering
|
| You don't consider years of mental trauma on the individual
| and years burden and stress on loved ones to be suffering?
| zigzag312 wrote:
| That's the issue with assisted suicide. A lot of old people
| bring burden and stress on loved ones at some point. How
| many old people will be guilt tripped into an assisted
| suicide because of this philosophy?
| bityard wrote:
| I don't see what that has to do with my comment, but
| okay: A lot less than are unwillingly bringing undue
| burden and stress to their family and neighbors because
| there is no legal mechanism to avoid it. Even fewer if we
| acknowledge that assisted suicide should be an option
| with a very high bar for those who would qualify. I wrote
| another comment about one way it might work.
| zigzag312 wrote:
| I interpreted your argument that suffering that years of
| burden and stress on loved ones bring is a good reason
| for an assisted suicide. Or did I misunderstood you?
|
| Regarding your estimates, are you just making up a lot of
| assumptions or do you have any data backing up your
| relative numbers? In your other comment you seem to
| assume that anyone not agreeing with OP's suggestion
| doesn't have personal experience with close relative
| having a dementia. I'm very sorry for your loss. At least
| some others (me included) also have had this unfortunate
| experience, but don't agree. High bar is actually very
| hard to quantify. All old people are in gradual decline
| and are relatively close to their deaths. One alternative
| to your suggestion would be that a state would provide
| quality professional care for people with dementia. That
| way the things OP described wouldn't happen and the
| family of the patient wouldn't have to bear the financial
| burden of the disease. We are more advanced and richer
| that we have ever been in human history, but it seems
| like we are unable, as a community, to provide very ill
| people with quality care they need.
| dbZJtFuAXUrVLmY wrote:
| I don't think the average amount of suffering for people
| with Alzheimer's and their families is sufficient to
| warrant euthanasia as a solution. I don't doubt there are
| some cases where it could be warranted, but I find it very
| difficult to get behind the idea that consent should pass
| from the individual. I obviously see that people with
| Alzheimer's and their families do suffer, the degree to
| which depends on the availability of proper care. We're
| essentially debating whether euthanasia is a better option
| to high quality care, and that's where the life of a person
| becomes a pretty gross economic equation. High quality care
| deprives families of assets. That tension between selfish
| (or so called "practical") interests and prioritising the
| interests of the dying is non-trivial, particular where the
| dying can't reasonably consent. The gentleman mentioned in
| this scenario would have had a more dignified death had he
| been provided the correct facilities, and probably
| shouldn't have been left to run riot in the community. It
| pains me that this is a story about how some guy became an
| asshole in his final years and not one of how a guy was
| deprived of a dignified death by the structures of society.
| I suspect to some degree people see euthanasia as a simple
| way to offer compassion and dignity in death, but I do
| think it's highly informed by ableist prejudice. There is a
| wide spectrum of dignity and life left to live in an end of
| life pathway and jumping to euthanasia as the solution is a
| pretty dangerous one in my opinion.
| ajkjk wrote:
| It's really up to them, not you. If you're pro assisted
| suicide you have to be pro other people making the
| decision in ways you disagree with.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| This is such a cruel perspective, implying that he'd be better
| off dead, for what, 3 years of inconvenience to his community,
| despite the previous 80 years being spent contributing
| positively to it?
|
| You even literally show that he isn't solely remembered for
| those last 3 years of his life. We owe people like that care
| and understanding, not murder framed as mercy.
|
| It's always so painful to see old people around who are clearly
| living alone, forced to do everything themselves, having to ask
| strangers for help because they're afraid of being a burden,
| and their actual children can't find time for them. Only to now
| see people actually supporting murder because old people become
| a burden for a couple of years near the end of their life.
| joelwilliamson wrote:
| He'd be dead either way, the question is if having those
| three years were a net improvement to his life
| dotnet00 wrote:
| By that logic we should invoke the death penalty for
| everyone who has been sentenced to life in prison and has
| exhausted all their appeals, or any seniors convicted of a
| crime.
|
| Their life probably won't improve anymore, and in the
| latter case they're going to die in a few years anyway, so
| might as well just lighten the load on society?
| esafak wrote:
| No, you'd let _them_ decide if they want to die.
| ipaddr wrote:
| 3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on
| life. Such silly statement.
|
| By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.
| ReptileMan wrote:
| A beautiful woman dies twice as the old saying goes.
|
| While what you say is extreme there is a point in the
| decline past which there is no point of living. If you
| have something worth living for - cling to life and to
| 107 if you like. But if the only thing that waits you is
| to slowly decay and fade and lose yourself - what is the
| point?
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| 3 years of living in constant pain - not saying it's the
| case here - is not better than being dead to some people.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I've known at least 2 old persons who were literally
| looking forward to their death because of chronic pain
| and general boredom and frustration of requiring 24h/7
| assistance and not being able to live the way they used
| to.
|
| They would have likely used assisted suicide if it had
| been an option back then.
| procaryote wrote:
| In medical research on treatments the outcome is often
| measured in quality adjusted years of life, because just
| keping people alive at any cost is a bad metric.
| hannofcart wrote:
| On the contrary, I urge you to consider whether it is
| your statement that is overly dismissive. Is there
| perhaps some existing conditioning, maybe in the form of
| religious upbringing that is driving your reaction to
| this? Many of us in fact find OP's a very thoughtful
| comment than a "silly statement".
|
| > By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.
|
| No, they suggested that the old and ailing whose quality
| of life has deteriorated to the point where there is no
| hope or no more joy in living, ought to be given the
| choice.
|
| Let me end by quoting my favourite lines from the HN
| guidelines:
|
| "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation
| of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to
| criticize. Assume good faith."
| imtringued wrote:
| The problem is on your end.
|
| Consider the following scenarios:
|
| There is a red button that orders your euthanasia.
| Pressing it instantly teleports you to a euthanasia
| facility and leads to your death unless you say no within
| 30 seconds. The button reads your fingerprint and can
| only be pressed by you. (Assume science fiction level
| technology to make this true)
|
| 1. The button is located 5000 km away from you in an
| unknown location.
|
| 2. The location is known.
|
| 3. You can order the delivery of the button to you for
| $50
|
| 4. The button is in your basement
|
| 5. The button is next to your bed
|
| 6. The button is on your keyboard and mouse
|
| 7. The button is on your keychain
|
| Now consider there is a blue button with the same rules
| as above, which makes you feel compelled to press the
| first button for a day and it can be pressed by anyone.
|
| You'd want the red button as far away from you as
| possible and the blue button secured in a location that
| is as inaccessible to others as possible.
|
| In today's society there are too many people obsessed
| with pressing blue buttons. Also, pressing blue buttons
| is not a crime, because red buttons happen to be pretty
| far away from most people.
|
| But now there are people obsessed with pressing red
| buttons. They want to ship the red button to your house
| on your behalf, while thinking they are doing you a
| favor.
|
| This would be okay if the blue button pressing people
| were a minority and there was a punishment for pressing
| blue buttons, but it turns out both positions are popular
| and when averaged together, the buttons will be placed
| next to each other, thereby turning the blue button into
| a second red button.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I see nobody obsessing about pushing red buttons. I see
| people that would like for option #3 to exist. And when
| death approaches, option #5.
|
| A simple test of how people feel: Consider the twin
| towers. We saw quite a few people choosing jumping over
| fire. We do not question people making such a choice. It
| is the same choice, just on a much more compressed time
| scale.
|
| (And we have the bonkers case out of WWII: the guy
| survived apparently uninjured. Someone who made the
| choice and was still around to ask them why. We don't
| know exactly what happened, no analysis was made at the
| time but attempting to reconstruct the situation said he
| probably hit the outer part of a pine tree and then
| rolled down a snowbank. He had on heavy clothing and had
| blacked out during the fall--not exactly surprising as he
| jumped from 18,000'.)
| leakycap wrote:
| > _The problem is on your end_
|
| followed by
|
| > _There is a red button [...] buttons [...] button [...]
| button [...] button [...] button [...] button [...]
| button [...] button [...] button [...] button [...]
| buttons [...] buttons [...] button [...] button [...]
| button [...] button [...] button [...] button [...]
| button [...] button [...] second red button_
|
| Not sure the problem is on their end!
| anigbrowl wrote:
| That's literally a one-dimensional analysis. Are you sure
| you're not missing any other relevant factors?I find it
| hard to believe you uncritically think 'more = better' in
| every context.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| But this guy wanted to die right? Bit different. Agreed that
| 'how others view you' is such nonsense. People are cruel that
| way and also: those children who couldn't be bothered
| visiting or helping out, will be standing at the funeral
| sniffling and telling 'such great dad stories'. Makes my
| blood boil.
| hhthrowaway1230 wrote:
| Sounds like LinkedIn story to me. Written by claude trying to
| drive a point home.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Not sure how to react. This is the second time in a month
| that someone thinks I used AI to write an HN post.
|
| All I can say is that I didn't, and thank you for implying
| that it was so well written that it could only have been
| authored by a machine that has all of humanity's cultural
| output to hand.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| This sounds like a big and somehow convincing but still
| rationalization.
|
| If you apply at scale the same logic with more sensibility you
| will also be able to rationalize a genocide because someone
| felt bad about something.
|
| What defines demonic inspiration?
|
| And here I don't say "demonic" metaphysically but
| philosophically.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| >Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off everyone,
| nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a maniac.
|
| I find the people who remember him as this guy somewhat
| contemptible though, so I guess my theory would be he wasn't
| remembered badly by anyone whose opinion mattered.
|
| But on the other hand I guess that's the way the world works.
| fsloth wrote:
| I agree alzheimers turns everything to shit in every meaning of
| the word.
|
| I disagree it's up to you to conclude it would have been better
| if he had been killed 3 years earlier (which you imply).
|
| In general you don't have the right to such a statement.
|
| Now, if you were discussing _your own_ condition this would be
| a totally valid consideration IMHO. But you (almost) _never_
| have the right to conclude from someone elses part when it's
| their time to go.
|
| Assisted suicide is a humane option but "I hope he had died
| with some dignity years ago instead of pissing everyone off"
| tarnishes the entire concept and is exactly the type of
| argument which stops assisted suecide becoming a more widely
| accepted option.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| It's basically getting rid of somebody when they become an
| inconvenience to others. Outside the bubble of HN, I suspect
| most people that talk about it as humane for the person
| actually mean humane for them.
|
| Many countries hesitate to execute criminals despite very
| clear criteria that could be used to justify it. (Many
| countries banned entirely.)
|
| Why would we have a lower bar for someone who hasn't
| committed any crimes?
| teiferer wrote:
| > it totally sours everyone's view of you.
|
| That's just as much failure of everybody as it is of him. This
| was dementia speaking and society needs to learn that.
|
| You wouldn't tell somebody with a broken leg to get it together
| and it's just their personality that they can't walk. Nor
| should you treat dementia like that. Yes, people seem to shift
| personalities and anger others. But those others need to
| understand that it's a medical condition, an untreatable and
| fatal one, so should have even more sympathy than with somebody
| who broke a leg (cause that will likely just be temporary). Not
| alienate the person and speak ill of them.
| pardon_me wrote:
| We are human. Unfortunately all of our experiences with
| others change our perception of them, no matter how much
| awareness of their motivations and our history with them. We
| can try to ignore it and have patience. Apologies can help
| but relationships will constantly change.
|
| It's certainly a failure point within us and something to be
| aware of to make effort towards understanding our own impact
| as you suggest. Sadly a problem with no full solution over
| long enough time periods.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| My issue is, anyone with half a clue should know that a
| formerly nice respected man doesn't automatically turn into a
| mean guy that "pisses them off" because he wants to be. They
| should have known that he had dementia and it wasn't his fault.
|
| I've never been close to anyone who had dementia. My
| grandparents on both sides died with their mental facilities in
| tact and my parents who are 83 and 81 are independent and just
| as of 6 months ago passed a cognitive test. I can imagine if
| they started acting out of character and being mean to me or
| forgot who I was that I would be _hurt_ , _overwhelmed_ etc.
| But not _pissed_.
| swat535 wrote:
| This is a heartbreaking story to read. But I think that pushing
| for assisted suicide as a "fix" like you're suggesting misses
| the bigger picture. We have a responsibility as a society to
| support people through these diseases, not cut their lives
| short because it's tough on everyone else.
|
| The real issue is our broken systems for handling dementia and
| underfunded homes, overworked staff, no real community nets.
| Fixing that honors the full life someone led, instead of saying
| their value drops when they need help. Assisted suicide opens
| doors to abuse, like pressuring people who feel like burdens.
|
| We owe better to people like your teacher.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > If he'd been run over by a car, or died of a heart attack at
| the age of 80, people he knew would remember him as that nice
| old guy who had a dog and made a lot of art, and was friendly
| to everyone. Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off
| everyone, nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a
| maniac.
|
| I've really thought about this a lot after seeing a number of
| family members and friend's family members go through dementia,
| and it seems like it can go two ways: like this, which is how
| it went with my grandmother (whose hoarding behavior increased
| aggressively, and she started slapping people), or how it went
| with my grandfather on the other side (he became quieter and
| quieter, watched tv every day while understanding less and less
| of it, and when you caught his eye would repeat how much he
| loved you and how much seeing you "made an old man feel good.")
|
| It has something to do with how you feel about the nature of
| people in general, and whether you feel they are all suspicious
| and possibly conspiring against you, or that you think they are
| basically good and want the best for you. When you have all of
| your mind, you can beat the demons or the angels back with your
| reasoning enough to have the personality that you want. My
| grandmother was very loving, and my grandfather was very shrewd
| and practical. But when that higher function can't regulate
| you, what shows is if you were someone who taught yourself how
| to see the good in people, or someone who taught yourself how
| to see the bad in people.
|
| I suspect I'll end up like my grandfather, as much as I think
| of myself as like my grandmother. Deep down, I've always been
| crippled by the feeling that everyone is a wonderful person. My
| aggression and judgemental nature on a lot of things can
| really, embarrassingly, be interpreted as me looking for
| excuses for everyone's behavior.
| imtringued wrote:
| So you're telling me Alzheimers is a death sentence? Also, what
| is the minimum nuisance that should lead to someone's death?
| Because that is the problem with the euthanasia obsession.
|
| At some point everything indirectly leads to euthanasia and
| society is not built for that at all. Everything you do might
| or might not lead to someone's euthanasia, which means you are
| liable for their death.
|
| Let's say we can predict school shooters before they shoot and
| give them an euthanasia to save lives. If bullying or
| encouragement causes someone to start shooting up a school,
| then the latent shooter will die before they do their shooting,
| but it also means that the instigator is a murderer themselves,
| because in the absence of instigation, no crime would be
| committed and no euthanasia would be necessary.
|
| Since it is probably not possible to assign liability of a
| euthanasia to a single individual, because multiple people
| contributed to the outcome, the liability will be shared. Ten
| people being involved means each has committed 10% of a murder,
| meaning that they should receive 10% of a life sentence. Are
| you ready to serve a cumulative year in prison spread
| throughout your life to account for indirectly causing
| euthanasia?
|
| Note that this problem isn't necessarily unique to euthanasia.
| The problem applies to any cure all solution. (Think of series
| like "Common Side Effects")
|
| If you punch someone's face in, but cure it with a blue
| mushroom, was it really a crime, since their face is intact?
| And yet, more punching happens as a result of the existence of
| the panacea, which is why there needs to be a punishment for
| making someone dependent on the panacea.
| AtNightWeCode wrote:
| I think you are bit wrong. Once someone close to you dies you
| remember them by their legacy. Also, you just have to laugh at
| some of the chaos these elderly cause. They call you in the
| middle of the night being lost somewhere and you have to guide
| em home. Or help the cops guide em home.
|
| I am pro assisted suicide. Not sure about Switzerland but some
| countries allows it for young people with mental health
| problems. That I can't accept that.
| groby_b wrote:
| > it totally sours everyone's view of you.
|
| That's the part that doesn't matter at all. Your life isn't
| contingent on others having a specific view of you - the rest
| of the world can, for lack of better words, go fuck themselves.
|
| What matters is if you _want_ to live a life where you can 't
| drive a car, you might poison yourself with your cooking, you
| lose your mental facilities, etc. _That_ is the relevant choice
| here.
| p0w3n3d wrote:
| What you say is "you don't want to end up with mental state
| because people will hate you" but TBH mental illness, though
| really harsh on environment, shouldn't be viewed differently
| than any other illness like broken leg. When person is riding a
| wheelchair you don't tell them "hey you're a pain in the ass
| because you drive so slow and cannot jump on the stairs" - we
| tend to give them hand, help by building ramps and lifts. The
| same should be with mentally ill. Places safe for them, mabe
| remembering aids software in a watch?
| Andrex wrote:
| 34M. I live with my mom who's had it for a few years.
|
| It sucks. It's so easy to forget who they were before the
| disease. This is them now and it's hard as hell.
|
| Simple things that take 1-step for us take 50+ steps for her.
| She doesn't readily communicate that she's hungry or thirsty or
| needs to use the bathroom, we have to constantly ask. She's
| always exhausted and walking around in circles but reacts
| aggressively to most suggestions to go to bed or take a nap (no
| matter how we word it). She can't focus for more than a few
| seconds, so she has no hobbies to occupy her time, and even the
| TV loses her interest after a minute at most. Her speech is one
| unbroken babble, and she gets annoyed if someone starts a
| conversation near her but doesn't let her interject.
|
| Not sure how much more my dad and I have left in us. The
| disease stripped everything from her and it's stripping
| everything from us. In-home care is the likely course but she
| hates all strangers and is always paranoid about anyone other
| than us being in the house. There's no good solution.
|
| Tell your parents you love them.
| simplegeek wrote:
| > And even at the end, when asked what he would like to do, he
| said: "I would like to learn something."
|
| Don't have an exact word to describe how I feel after reading
| above. Find it beautiful that such an accomplished person wanted
| to learn something even towards the end of his life.
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow
| (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-
| Kahneman/dp...). If you haven't read it, and you're into
| economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking
| then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is
| especially compelling.
|
| You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able
| to go out on his own terms.
| kqr wrote:
| His next big book, Noise, is possibly even better.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| I really didn't get on with that one. Felt very much like a
| book that could have easily been shortened down to an essay
| and suffered for the additional length.
| reddalo wrote:
| I didn't even know he had died. I agree, Thinking: Fast and
| Slow is a great book.
| croes wrote:
| Some of the things in the book have a reproducibility problem
| so it definitely would need an update
| xtracto wrote:
| I had read so many raves about that book, and heard the author
| got a Nobel prize for his ideas, so I started reading it.
|
| I just could not digest it. I understood the words but I
| couldn't make whatever message he was trying to convey... it
| felt too "dense" for me. Maybe im just stupid, but I could not
| get past I think the first two chapters.
| guerrilla wrote:
| That's weird. I had the opposite reaction. The ideas were so
| obvious to me that I couldn't understand what all the hype
| was about.
| joomla199 wrote:
| It's largely a popsci book for poseurs. To wit: most of these
| people "into economics" haven't read a word of Smith or
| Keynes.
|
| It's best use is to be announced your favorite book among
| undistinguished company. Some people need such books. Such as
| those from Smith and Keynes.
| taejavu wrote:
| Since you're giving an edgy take in a thread discussing the
| death of a respected author, I'll be pedantic: you're wrong
| about those people not reading a word of Smith or Keynes,
| since it's impossible to avoid reading at least one of
| their common quotations if you have even a passing interest
| in the field.
| joomla199 wrote:
| You're in the wrong thread then. This one is discussing a
| book. Perhaps the word thread doesn't work too well with
| your intent.
| taejavu wrote:
| Fighting pedantry with pedantry, nice.
| jakubmazanec wrote:
| Don't worry, it doesn't matter, because at best a lot of
| claims in this books just cannot be replicated, and at worst
| the book is completely useless because it's based on shitty
| science - depends on your POV.
| piskov wrote:
| Part of the book has been swept up in the replication crisis
| facing psychology and the social sciences. It was discovered
| many prominent research findings were difficult or impossible
| for others to replicate, and thus the original findings were
| called into question. An analysis[51] of the studies cited in
| chapter 4, "The Associative Machine", found that their
| replicability index (R-index)[52] is 14, indicating essentially
| low to no reliability. Kahneman himself responded to the study
| in blog comments and acknowledged the chapter's shortcomings:
| "I placed too much faith in underpowered studies."[53] Others
| have noted the irony in the fact that Kahneman made a mistake
| in judgment similar to the ones he studied.[54]
|
| A later analysis[55] made a bolder claim that, despite
| Kahneman's previous contributions to the field of decision
| making, most of the book's ideas are based on 'scientific
| literature with shaky foundations'. A general lack of
| replication in the empirical studies cited in the book was
| given as a justification.
| xpe wrote:
| Related, a 5 page page PDF, freely downloadable:
|
| Should assisted dying be legalised?
|
| Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities in Medicine volume 9, Article
| number: 3 (2014)
|
| Thomas D G Frost, Devan Sinha & Barnabas J Gilbert
|
| https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341...
|
| Abstract
|
| When an individual facing intractable pain is given an estimate
| of a few months to live, does hastening death become a viable and
| legitimate alternative for willing patients? Has the time come
| for physicians to do away with the traditional notion of
| healthcare as maintaining or improving physical and mental
| health, and instead accept their own limitations by facilitating
| death when requested? The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge
| held the 2013 Varsity Medical Debate on the motion "This House
| Would Legalise Assisted Dying". This article summarises the key
| arguments developed over the course of the debate. We will
| explore how assisted dying can affect both the patient and
| doctor; the nature of consent and limits of autonomy; the effects
| on society; the viability of a proposed model; and, perhaps most
| importantly, the potential need for the practice within our
| current medico-legal framework.
| xpe wrote:
| A quote from the above:
|
| > It is difficult to reconcile that citizens may have the right
| to do almost anything to and with their own bodies- from
| participating in extreme sports to having elective plastic
| surgery- yet a terminal patient cannot choose to avoid
| experiencing additional months of discomfort or loss of dignity
| in their final months of life.
| masklinn wrote:
| One issue I think about a fair bit is that without legal
| assisted suicide aside from all the usual issues with
| unassisted suicide you need to end things even earlier to
| make sure you do it while still physically capable: with age
| the risk of physical debilitation increases sharply, a bad
| fall or a small stroke will see you in the hospital or
| incapable of moving an arm. Which is on top of the risks of
| mental debilitation taking away your right to self
| determination (through simple incompetence).
| lionkor wrote:
| > "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want
| it to be discussed publicly either."
| basisword wrote:
| He had to know it would be. I wonder if that was maybe an
| attempt to say this is completely personal and I'm not trying
| to encourage others to do the same or suggest it is the right
| thing for everyone to do?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| While I understand him, public personalities cannot really
| demand to avoid attention on such an existential topic.
| dooglius wrote:
| The email was a "personal message to close friends", I think
| it's a reasonable request for him to ask them not to share
| the information.
| ocrow wrote:
| They can ask. We're the ones choosing to ignore his wish.
| amelius wrote:
| Not even in the abstract?
| anilgulecha wrote:
| I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of
| this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's
| developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated.
|
| The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The
| practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past
| year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away
| surrounded by loved ones (they typically medicate for any pain,
| and the body starts shutting down when food and water stops).
| This is observed with somberness, but celebrated as very positive
| act.
|
| When someone starts this process, it's a unique experience
| speaking with them, as there's usually nothing that comes up, and
| the moment does not really lend itself to small talk :)
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana
| mosura wrote:
| How long does this actually take?
| masklinn wrote:
| Hard fast (e.g. hunger strikes) usually take about 2 months
| to kill a healthy adult.
|
| On the one hand according to the wiki this is more
| progressive removing food by degrees which would make the
| process a lot longer.
|
| On the other hand being a mostly ascetic practice I'd assume
| it's done by people who have a lot less reserves (body fat
| and muscle) which would shorten the process significantly
| (the 207kg Angus Barbieri famously fasted continuously for
| 382 days[0] breaking his fast at 82kg, although he
| supplemented his liquids -- water, tea, and coffee -- with
| vitamins, electrolytes, and yeast extract, the latter for
| essential amino acids).
|
| [0]: technically he was put on a recovery diet of salting
| then sugaring his water for 10 days, so ate no solid food for
| 392 days, breaking his fast with a boiled egg and a slice of
| buttered bread
| nemo1618 wrote:
| Liquids are also removed (gradually). For someone already
| in weakened condition, I would be surprised if the process
| took longer than two weeks.
| masklinn wrote:
| Ah I'd missed that part, in that case yes it would go
| much faster, dehydration is a quick way out (though not a
| comfortable one).
| anilgulecha wrote:
| The earliest was under a day. The latest was about 2 weeks.
| I've heard of about 45 days one as well.. but thats unusual.
| vitorbaptistaa wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this. My grandpa passed away earlier this
| year at the young age of 97. We discovered a kidney cancer and
| decided not to treat him and bring him back home.
|
| During his final days, he became unresponsive, only sleeping.
| The doctors gave us the option of feeding him through a tube.
| We made the hard decision of not doing it. Gave him all the
| medicine to help his body heal, but no invasive procedures.
|
| We stayed by his side for the next 5 days. Playing songs that
| he enjoyed. Audiobooks that he loved. And just taking care of
| him.
|
| Finally, his breath became slower and slower until it stopped
| and he passed away. I had the opportunity of being beside him
| during his last breath.
|
| The passing of loved ones is always difficult, but I am
| grateful for how he went. He lived a full life and was
| incredibly healthy until the end.
|
| Without knowing, we decided on a sallekhana-like process for
| him. It was the right thing to do.
|
| Thank you for showing me this.
| yawpitch wrote:
| Ever since I learned of Jainism I've wished I'd learned of it
| earlier.
| NaomiLehman wrote:
| Thank you I just learned about it. Seems compatible with
| atheism.
| hackernewds wrote:
| It absolutely does not. Jainism is even stricter than
| Hinduism, to be co-opted with a faithless belief system
| anilgulecha wrote:
| It's atheistic in that it's godless (more focused on
| saints). In its orthodoxy it requires a lot from any
| practitioner, towards its philosophy.
| yawpitch wrote:
| Atheism isn't a faithless belief system, it is the
| absence of either a faith or a belief system.
|
| That absence is also quite compatible with Jainism, the
| core moral precept of which is simply do no violence.
| le-mark wrote:
| This is essentially what hospice is in the US. They stop
| curative treatment and focus on comfort. Then at the end when
| the person can no longer function to eat or drink they increase
| the morphine dose to a high level until they pass.
| seneca wrote:
| Right. It's a not-so-well-kept secret that hospice care is
| actually assisted suicide in disguise. It's done with a wink
| and a nudge, hiding behind the principle of double effect,
| but it's a mercy everyone knows is happening. It's sad that
| it has to be done covertly.
| hackernewds wrote:
| Which is highly illegal, especially as a form of monetizing
| pain and lack of agency from elders incapable of decision
| making but flush with money and inheritors
| jamiek88 wrote:
| And replies like this is why it's clandestine.
| macNchz wrote:
| This is a misconception--research has found that people
| entering hospice often live longer than those who do not:
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S08853924
| 0...
|
| There are many who will raise their hands with anecdotal
| counters to this, but I think much of that is borne from
| misunderstandings about end of life generally, which is a
| charged and difficult topic lots of people would rather
| _not_ learn more about.
|
| I highly recommend the book _Being Mortal_ by Atul Gawande
| for anyone who wants to explore the topic further--or
| really for anyone who has loved ones at all!
| joomla199 wrote:
| In a similar vein India also has/had Thalaikoothal, which is
| more of a traditional method of homicide than suicide.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal
| titanomachy wrote:
| "They are given an oil bath and made to drink glasses of
| coconut water"
|
| I'm surprised that someone can be killed in this way. Is it
| the electrolyte imbalance? There's a lot of potassium in
| coconut water.
| mattkrause wrote:
| Yup--too much potassium.
|
| Apparently you can (almost) do it unintentionally if you
| play tennis in the heat--though 88oz (2.6L) seems like a
| lot!
|
| Here's a case report:
|
| Hakimian, J., Goldbarg, S. H., Park, C. H., & Kerwin, T. C.
| (2014). Death by Coconut. _Circulation: Arrhythmia and
| Electrophysiology_ , 7(1), 180-181.
| https://doi.org/10.1161/circep.113.000941
| hackernewds wrote:
| How did they medicate for pain for millennia before the advent
| of painkillers?
| ChromaticPanic wrote:
| Are we pretending opioids do not exist in nature? What's
| next, how did people hallucinate before LSD?
| philipkglass wrote:
| Before the early modern period, large portions of the world
| did not have any wild or cultivated opium poppies or any
| other strong painkillers.
| vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
| People were probably suffering a lot. I can't imagine being a
| migraine sufferer in 1500. It's miserable enough now.
| sarchertech wrote:
| So he was very old without any significant problems, but he
| wanted to avoid the inevitable problems?
|
| If you've already made it to 90 with no major issues, you're
| expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100.
| My wife's grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays
| golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and
| many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come
| see us last year.
|
| I'm very wary of making it legal for doctors to euthanize an
| otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid an eventual
| decline.
|
| It's relatively common for families to push people into nursing
| homes, but in this case there's an even stronger direct financial
| incentive. I don't trust the system to adequately prevent this.
| lblume wrote:
| I agree with your legal assessment and still think of the case
| as very interesting. The article explicitly talks about how any
| such decision could have only been premature, for the slow
| cognitive decline is typically only noticed when it is too
| late, and because the change is continuous, there can be no
| good commitment to "I no longer consider this life worthwhile
| once condition X is no longer satisfied".
| 1dom wrote:
| > If you've already made it to 90 with no major issues, you're
| expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to
| 100. My wife's grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives,
| plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12
| grandchildren and many great grandchildren.
|
| Counter-anecdote, my partners Granddad is 93. Age 90, we said
| the same as you. Now he's an old, rude, obnoxious liability -
| he's still great, and I don't hold it against him, he's earned
| the right. But I've never known anyone naturally age and die
| without losing their ability to be civil in some way towards
| the end.
|
| From the article:
|
| > Kahneman knew that many would see his decision as premature.
| But that was exactly what he intended, he wrote: If you wait
| until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is
| already too late.
|
| I personally wish my partners final memories of her Granddad
| were him at 90, and not at 93. I've known for a good 5 - 10
| years I will take the same route as Kahneman. I feel the desire
| to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and
| those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear,
| rather than compassion or logic.
| sarchertech wrote:
| >I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a
| liability for yourself and those around you is a decision
| motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic.
|
| Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we
| should just go full Logan's run and kill people as soon as
| they stop being productive.
|
| There nothing wrong with saying that you aren't going to take
| extreme measures to preserve your life past a certain age.
|
| But I don't want this attitude of "you should kill yourself
| so you don't burden your family" to become the norm either.
|
| What if your partner's grandad heard you calling him a rude
| obnoxious liability and felt pressured into killing himself?
|
| >I've never known anyone naturally age and die without losing
| their ability to be civil in some way towards the end.
|
| But many people die suddenly with no serious mental decline
| at all. That can happen at 95 or 100 the same as it happens
| earlier.
|
| If you rule out everyone who didn't die of some nebulous
| cause as the result of a slow decline you are selecting for
| people who mentally decline.
| 1dom wrote:
| > Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic
| we should just go full Logan's run and kill people as soon
| as they stop being productive.
|
| That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a
| liability.
|
| > But I don't want this attitude of "you should kill
| yourself so you don't burden your family" to become the
| norm either.
|
| I can see that, but you haven't explained why. Personally,
| I don't want to burden myself, my family and those I care
| about, that's important to me. There must be something more
| important to you that justifies burdening loved ones with a
| hard painful death of a loved one. Help me understand:
| what's that thing for you, if not ego/fear?
|
| > What if your partner's grandad heard you calling him a
| rude obnoxious liability and felt pressured into killing
| himself?
|
| The alternative is he's unnaturally kept alive in a
| perpetual state of suffering for him and the people around
| him. If he hadn't suffered mental decline, I know he'd
| never consciously choose that, another reason why I'd like
| to make sure I'm gone before serious decline kicks in.
|
| > But many people die suddenly with no serious mental
| decline at all. That can happen at 95 or 100 the same as it
| happens earlier.
|
| That doesn't change anything. I agree with Kahnemans point
| that becoming a burden is too late. If I accept that,
| without being able to predict the future, it then becomes a
| game of risk. Kahnamen decided the risk of him becoming a
| burden was greater than the risk of him continuing to live
| what he would consider a productive (edit: "valuable" is
| probably a better word here) life.
| sarchertech wrote:
| >That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a
| liability.
|
| That would depend on your definition of liability I
| suppose. Many people would consider a parent who was no
| longer capable of productive output (work, helping out
| around the house, watching the kids) a liability. I
| suppose you may be using the term to mean "you'd rather
| not have them around anymore because their company is no
| longer offsetting the cost to you".
|
| >There must be something more important to you that
| justifies burdening loved ones with a hard painful death
| of a loved one. Help me understand: what's that thing for
| you, if not ego/fear?
|
| This isn't about me. As of right now I don't plan on
| taking any heroic measures to preserve my life past a
| certain point. The issue is I don't care why someone
| wants to stick around. I want them to feel free to do
| continue to do so.
|
| >The alternative is he's unnaturally kept alive in a
| perpetual state of suffering for him and the people
| around him.
|
| Depends on what you mean by being unnaturally kept alive.
| He could have opted out of medical treatment at any time.
| Once his capacity to make his own decisions was gone, his
| family could opt out of that treatment for him.
|
| >That doesn't change anything. I agree with Kahnemans
| point that becoming a burden is too late. If I accept
| that, without being able to predict the future, it then
| becomes a game of risk. Kahnamen decided the risk of him
| becoming a burden was greater than the risk of him
| continuing to live what he would consider a productive
| (edit: "valuable" is probably a better word here) life.
|
| Personally I think trying to predict the future and what
| the people around me would or wouldn't want is futile.
| And choosing when to die to prevent this is impossible.
| Some people will go downhill at 55, some at 110. If you
| really consider the burden of a few years of decline to
| be so awful on your family that you place a very high
| value on avoiding it, you'd need probably need to kill
| yourself much earlier than 90, probably 75 to really
| reduce the chance to a small enough level that you don't
| really need to worry about it very much.
|
| The problems I see are that several.
|
| 1. People will feel pressured into suicide because they
| feel they are might be a burden to their family that
| their family doesn't want. Even if they aren't. You can't
| know what your family actually thinks. If they say "no
| dad I don't want you to kill yourself", are they being
| honest or not?
|
| 2. People will feel pressured into suicide because their
| family has made it clear that they are a burden on them.
| These people might want to keep living for whatever
| reason. Fear/ego whatever. I don't care why they want to.
| I don't want them to feel obligated to commit suicide.
|
| 3. The financial incentives for families to pressure
| otherwise healthy people into suicide.
| rkomorn wrote:
| FWIW, I think the problems you list are 100% valid.
|
| I still generally think people should be allowed to
| choose how their life ends.
|
| I also think that, as a society, we should be trying to
| fix the problems you list so they become of least concern
| to the person dying (though I'm not optimistic we will).
| 1dom wrote:
| > That would depend on your definition of liability I
| suppose.
|
| I mean it in the sense of burdening others. Sure we all
| have to burden others to some extent, but I mean
| specifically the unique burdens that come with age, like
| requiring others to do basic things to keep you alive
| because you've lost the ability to do so.
|
| > Once his capacity to make his own decisions was gone,
| his family could opt out of that treatment for him.
|
| There is also no medical treatment for old age: there's
| no medications you can opt out of to end it all if you're
| just naturally aging and suffering, but we have to see
| this suffering more now because medicine has stopped
| other illness killing people before old age. Also, one
| problem we didn't anticipate is in the UK, legal and
| medical power of attorney can only be used when a person
| has lost the ability to make decisions: if they're able
| to make terrible decisions that are obviously not in
| their interest, and leading them to be repeatedly
| hospitalised, those terrible decisions are still
| respected over the family/power of attorney.
|
| > The issue is I don't care why someone wants to stick
| around. I want them to feel free to do continue to do so.
|
| I think we agree here. I want people to be free to end
| their life how they want, including staying around if
| they want to.
|
| For the 3 problems you mentioned, you see them as
| problems because you have the perfectly natural
| underlying fear/ego/entitlement to stay alive, regardless
| of who else has to suffer for you.
|
| I don't feel I have that, for better or for worse, so
| none of those 3 points really are problems for me:
|
| 1. This is literally what I'm advocating for! If my
| family think I'm a liability, and I'm causing more harm
| than good, then I've told them they need to tell me so we
| can put things in motion. The only reason for the family
| to be dishonest is through fear of upsetting/offending my
| feeling of entitlement to life. The way I see it is
| Kahneman's approach enabled his family to be honest with
| him!
|
| 2. What about the contrary? I want me and my family to
| have the best life with minimal unnecessary suffering.
| Yet you're here, trying to pressure me into making them
| suffer by being a big ol' age burden. I don't want to
| feel obligated and forced to stay alive and make my
| family suffer because some people are scared of their
| inevitable mortality. My approach maximises the choice to
| allow for minimising inevitable suffering, whereas yours
| reduces choices for the _chance_ that maybe you'll be the
| old person who isn't a burden (but you will be a burden,
| because nature).
|
| 3. This is already a problem: the legality or
| acceptableness of suicide/death isn't going to stop
| horrible family members finding creative ways to extract
| inheritance early.
|
| I'm not advocating for people to be able to top
| themselves on a whim, there needs to be controls and
| processes in place, like any big/potentially harmful
| decision, and these controls are in place. FWIW, a bunch
| of the points you've raised were discussed and concluded
| as part of the parliamentary discussion into changing
| these laws in the UK ("Assisted dying bill"). The bill in
| the UK was specifically for terminally ill adults, but
| practically, old age is a terminal illness and most of
| the same arguments apply.
| EasyMark wrote:
| the big question is why do you get to choose that for me or
| why is it society's choice and not my own? assuming I'm of
| a healthy mental state.
| nabla9 wrote:
| If the society treats people badly, that's not a reason to deny
| them the ability to do final exit with dignity. We must fight
| to fix the problem cases, not take dignity away from those who
| suffer from it.
|
| > It's relatively common for families to push people into
| nursing homes,
|
| So you are rejected by your family and punished even more by
| taking away a dignified exit strategy?
| sarchertech wrote:
| Nothing is being taken away. Medically assisted suicide to
| prevent old age has never been a right anyone has had under
| any legal framework until very recently. And it's not a right
| anyone has anywhere but a few countries.
|
| You can argue that more countries should grant that right.
| But if you're going to do so, you need to have an answer for
| the incentives it creates.
| ta1243 wrote:
| My nan made it to 92 without any mental issues, but then
| deteriorated significantly over the course of 18 months,
| forgetting she'd ever been married, had kids, etc, just
| reverted to believing she was a teenager who wanted to go home
| to her parents (in a house which was destroyed in ww2)
|
| She couldn't look after herself was was forced into care by the
| courts. Since going into a home she's physically never been
| fitter, but mentally she's not the person she was 10 years ago
| -- it's not that she's changed personality, it's as if her
| memory of the last 80 years was wiped.
| sarchertech wrote:
| That's terrible, but you never know when or if the decline is
| going to happen, so if you pick an arbitrary cutoff you'll
| have killed people who had plenty of good years left.
|
| Many people die suddenly with no decline at all.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| I see a lot of elder people age very suddenly. It's like the
| capacity to recuperate from a problem is gone. With some luck
| no such problems appear and you can become old without much
| troubles. But once a problem appears, it hits in full force.
| Tepix wrote:
| As long as people are thinking clearly, i think it should be up
| to them.
|
| There is no financial incentive. No-one is making any money
| from assisted suicide in Switzerland.
| cdman wrote:
| No, he was an old man who cared for his wife with dementia
| until his death, an experience which changed him. And thus he
| has chosen to go on his own accord.
| mcdonje wrote:
| The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted
| suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to
| everyone.
|
| That said, there is a problem in at least some places where
| assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended
| to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be
| solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it.
|
| There is a cost reduction incentive, though, which is why it
| happens. Costs can be reduced for abled people by convincing them
| to exercise and eat more fiber, so the same pressure can do good
| instead of evil. At some point we have to decide to care about
| people.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| > That said, there is a problem in at least some places where
| assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting
| recommended to disabled people who don't want to die.
|
| Where? This is a thing which always pops up in these debates
| because it is a deep-rooted fear, but are there countries where
| this is a thing?
| nabla9 wrote:
| Canada. The critique is that people opt into euthanasia
| because of poverty, and that the government sees MAID
| economical alternative to investments in social programs and
| welfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada
|
| I don't think things are as bad, but I also think that old
| age in poverty is a valid reason for euthanasia if there is
| no alternative. If the society is cruel to the poor, holding
| poor elderly as hostage to improve situation is cruelty on
| top of the cruelty.
| protocolture wrote:
| From the article the safeguards seem fantastic and the
| biggest issue is the exclusion of mental health grounds.
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| MAID being inappropriately offered to people who haven't
| expressed interest in it, and also being extended widely to
| people without terminal illness, has certainly become a
| controversy in Canada.
|
| https://archive.is/bd0PV
|
| https://thewalrus.ca/assisted-dying/
|
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/doesnt-line-up-
| mps-c...
| nprateem wrote:
| Why should only terminally ill people get this choice? A 16
| year old can decide who to kill in the army but apparently
| they (and we) aren't competent to choose whether to take
| one's own life.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I don't necessarily agree with this take but I'd say it's
| probably because we're only willing to let people who are
| close to death "make a mistake."
|
| Eg maybe a 16 year old who wants to end their otherwise
| healthy life might, 20 years later, be glad they didn't.
|
| That seems less likely with someone who is almost
| certainly going to die (and probably painfully to boot)
| "soon".
| nicoburns wrote:
| > maybe a 16 year old who wants to end their otherwise
| healthy life might, 20 years later, be glad they didn't.
|
| Equally, they might spend decades of their life in misery
| wishing that they had been able to.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I don't particularly like this wording but can't seem to
| come up with another one right now:
|
| I think it's okay for us to try and avoid the
| irreversible mistake, but yes, it's very arguable that
| living years you didn't want to live is also an
| "irreversible mistake".
| rpdillon wrote:
| You're correct, and I'm generally in favor of the right
| to die.
|
| I watched a documentary where they interviewed a bunch of
| people who attempted suicide and talked to them about the
| entire experience and mental state. Out of the maybe ten
| that they interviewed, only one said that he wished it
| had worked. That doesn't mean it's only 10% though...
| they didn't get to interview the ones that succeeded.
| voakbasda wrote:
| With suicide being illegal in most jurisdictions, not
| everyone interviewed may have been honest in relating
| their feelings. If you have suicidal ideations, telling
| others about them can have severely negative
| consequences. Saying "I wish it had worked" would likely
| create ongoing jeopardy.
| rkomorn wrote:
| I'm sorry but this feels kind of specious.
|
| Especially if the person has already admitted to trying
| to commit suicide (which they presumably did considering
| the context from parent comment).
| voakbasda wrote:
| Admitting to a past feelings and actions is quite
| different than admitting to present feelings and
| potential future actions. Wishing it worked indicates the
| a possibility that they might want to try again.
| rkomorn wrote:
| Sometimes I don't get why things get downvoted on here.
|
| What's downvote-worthy about this comment?
|
| It's in response to mine, and even though I don't really
| agree with it, I don't see what's so objectionable that
| it needs some sort of admonition?
| __s wrote:
| Didn't downvote, but I think the writing has a flippant
| voice. In combination with an unpopular opinion I've been
| able to attract downvotes in the same way
| rkomorn wrote:
| Interesting. I didn't read it as flippant, myself. I
| actually thought it was voiced similarly to mine (which I
| don't think is flippant either) and to the point. Oh
| well. Mysteries of HN.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| > 60% of the patients who died with Kevorkian's help were not
| terminally ill, and at least 13 had not complained of
| pain....The report also stated that Kevorkian failed to refer
| at least 17 patients to a pain specialist after they
| complained of chronic pain and sometimes failed to obtain a
| complete medical record for his patients, with at least three
| autopsies of suicides Kevorkian had assisted with showing the
| person who committed suicide to have no physical sign of
| disease. Rebecca Badger, a patient of Kevorkian's and a
| mentally troubled drug abuser, had been mistakenly diagnosed
| with multiple sclerosis. The report also stated that Janet
| Adkins, Kevorkian's first euthanasia patient, had been chosen
| without Kevorkian ever speaking to her, only with her
| husband, and that when Kevorkian first met Adkins two days
| before her assisted suicide he "made no real effort to
| discover whether Ms. Adkins wished to end her life," as the
| Michigan Court of Appeals put it in a 1995 ruling upholding
| an order against Kevorkian's activity.[26] According to The
| Economist: "Studies of those who sought out Dr. Kevorkian,
| however, suggest that though many had a worsening illness...
| it was not usually terminal. Autopsies showed five people had
| no disease at all... Little over a third were in pain. Some
| presumably suffered from no more than hypochondria or
| depression."[27]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
| Zak wrote:
| This doesn't seem to be an example of assisted suicide
| being recommended to disabled people who didn't want to
| die. Mainstream medical practice at the time condemned
| Kevorkian, and anyone seeking out his services was
| certainly aware that what he offered was death.
| bjourne wrote:
| Society puts a lot of pressure on the people at the
| bottom. The chronically ill and the unemployed. That
| pressure in combination with an option to permanently
| relive yourself of that pressure is to many functionally
| equivalent to a recommendation.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| Euthanization of the disabled has been a consistent part
| of the eugenics movement. For example George Bernard Shaw
| quote
|
| > A part of eugenic politics would finally land us in an
| extensive use of the lethal chamber. A great many people
| would have to be put out of existence simply because it
| wastes other people's time to look after them.
|
| Shaw and other Fabian Society members were supporters of
| the group now called Dignity in Dying [0], which used to
| be called The Voluntary Euthanasia Legalisation Society
| and was founded by a doctor.
|
| Nazi Germany committed involuntary euthanasia of disabled
| people in a program called Aktion T4 [1]. It's probably
| not an accident that Dr Kevorkian, an American, started
| publishing his euthanasia papers in Germany. Before that
| he was trying to harvest blood and organs from inmates,
| which is another area where the incentives seem very bad.
|
| I can't comment on how often modern assisted suicide
| programs recommend it to disabled people who don't want
| suicide. But it's clear that Kevorkian was not careful
| about who he recommended assisted suicide to. So given
| the strong desire of some people to euthanize the
| disabled against their will, the lack of carefulness is
| concerning and suggests that it likely happens with some
| regularity except in exceptionally run programs.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignity_in_Dying
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
| raffael_de wrote:
| I'd argue that sadly something like this is bound to happen
| for sure because many (if not most) humans are lazy, greedy
| and don't like sick people outside of movies. If it is
| happening systematically and encouraged by the government or
| insurance companies - that's of course a different matter and
| has to be prevented.
| Thorrez wrote:
| Barbara Wagner [1]:
|
| >Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor
| prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay.
|
| >What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however,
| were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would
| cost about $50.
|
| Randy Stroup [2]:
|
| > Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which
| administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded
| to Stroup's request with a letter saying the state would not
| cover Stroup's pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost
| of physician-assisted suicide.
|
| Stephanie Packer [3] (although in this case she inquired
| herself):
|
| > Then her doctors suggested that switching to another
| chemotherapy drug might buy her time. Her medical insurance
| company refused to pay. She says she asked if the company
| covered the cost of drugs to put her to death. She was told
| the answer is yes -- with a co-payment of $1.20.
|
| T. Brian Callister, MD, FACP, FHM [4]:
|
| >When I spoke with the insurance medical directors of the
| patients' insurance companies by telephone on separate
| occasions, both of the insurance medical directors told me
| that they would approve coverage for either hospice care or
| assisted suicide but would not approve the life saving
| treatment option.
|
| > Neither the patients nor I had requested approval for
| assisted suicide, yet it was readily offered.
|
| [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1
|
| [2] https://www.foxnews.com/story/oregon-offers-terminal-
| patient...
|
| [3] https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/terminally-ill-mom-denied-
| trea...
|
| [4] https://www.cga.ct.gov/2018/phdata/tmy/2018HB-05417-R0003
| 20-...
| andsoitis wrote:
| Offered != recommended.
|
| However, the price difference is probably a strong
| incentive.
| mft_ wrote:
| It's a very odd take to think examples of insurance
| companies refusing life-extending treatment and instead
| offering assisted suicide indicates a problem with assisted
| suicide.
|
| Just to be clear: the insurance companies are the problem
| here; and more broadly this whole for-profit model of
| healthcare.
| mcdonje wrote:
| It's actually a good and relevant set of examples for the
| particular type of issue that was asked about. They
| didn't give any opinions for or against assisted suicide
| in general.
| Thorrez wrote:
| In the first 2 examples, Oregon Health Plan is arguably
| not a company. It's run by the Oregon government.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Canada.
| sarchertech wrote:
| That's the problem. If there's a financial incentive people
| will find way to push it.
|
| That's my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an
| otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable
| decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial
| incentive for families to push people into this.
|
| The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that
| your estate can't go to anyone who potentially has influence
| over you in the case of assisted suicide for with no terminal
| illness.
| hypeatei wrote:
| > There is a direct financial incentive for families to push
| people into this
|
| What financial incentives are there in killing someone?
| sarchertech wrote:
| Inheritance.
| hypeatei wrote:
| So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they
| die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person
| would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when
| they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing
| something?
| h33t-l4x0r wrote:
| You seem to be forgetting that sometimes people want
| things now.
| sarchertech wrote:
| 1. You get the money now as opposed to potentially many
| years from now.
|
| 2. You likely get much more money if they die now without
| spending it on cost of living, and healthcare.
|
| People do all kinds of awful things in order to get
| control of an elderly family member's money--up to and
| including outright murder. Pressuring a suggestible
| family member into assisted suicide is a comparatively
| easy and low risk method.
| hypeatei wrote:
| > People do all kinds of awful things in order to ...
|
| Okay, sure, but how much of the population is this awful
| and does it actually matter since they can't consent to
| someone else's suicide anyway?
|
| I don't think this is as much of a widespread issue as
| its made out to be, to be honest.
| sarchertech wrote:
| I don't know how many people are like this. I do know
| that financial incentives result in more or behavior.
|
| It's already common for caregivers to begin to resent the
| people they care for and for old people to worry that
| they are a liability.
|
| I don't trust the system to be able to protect vulnerable
| people who have been coerced. And I don't want old people
| in general to feel like suicide is their obligation.
| LogicFailsMe wrote:
| My brother likely exploited his power of attorney to
| accelerate our mother's demise and may have injected her
| with insulin to get the job done. So there's your first
| datapoint.
|
| What's definite, however, is that he made ~75% of her
| estate vanish into thin air before throwing her into a
| low-end nursing home where he wouldn't pay $6/day to have
| her bathed so she died in her own filth. Nevermind she
| had a 6-figure pension and longterm care for life. He
| wanted her gone because dementia had made her
| unmanageable to him yet he wouldn't let her go to live
| with any of her other children because he feared he would
| lose control of the estate through his PoA.
|
| And because he had that PoA, no one could dispute his
| choices in time to save her. The courts and Adult
| Protective Services were useless bordering on complicit.
| The day we finally got a positive court verdict was
| absolutely 100% coincidentally no connection whatsoever
| you see 2 days before she suddenly passed.
|
| Lesson learned: when you grow old, don't give anyone on
| the inheritance train any sort of PoA or they'll
| instantly become a PoS.
| jeremyjh wrote:
| A long, costly illness will consume the entire
| inheritance - at least in the US.
| michaelt wrote:
| Many western countries make dying slowly with Alzheimer's
| very expensive, by the standards of normal families.
|
| Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a
| million bucks in five years easily. And most families don't
| have a million bucks cash to spare.
|
| On the other hand, if they die after six months, instead of
| after 5 years? The family doesn't lose the farm.
| hypeatei wrote:
| > Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn
| through a million bucks in five years easily
|
| That would indicate there is a financial incentive in
| _keeping them alive_ , no?
|
| The "incentive" from the family's perspective, if they're
| that cold-blooded, doesn't make sense because they could
| just... not take care of that person.
| sarchertech wrote:
| You're not understanding. They could just not take care
| of that person sure. But when the person dies, there will
| be nothing left to inherit because they will have spent
| it all on medical care.
| hypeatei wrote:
| So we've outlined a society where: healthcare providers,
| lawyers, etc. ("the system") stand to benefit from
| keeping a person alive and suffering because they can
| squeeze money out of them in their final years. Assisted
| suicide is being made available and "family pressure to
| commit suicide" is brought up as a concern? Sure, valid
| concern I guess, but it just seems pointless as there are
| already guardrails around these processes and we're not
| recognizing the benefits of giving more autonomy to
| people which means their suffering can be stopped.
| sarchertech wrote:
| >healthcare providers, lawyers, etc. ("the system") stand
| to benefit from keeping a person alive and suffering
| because they can squeeze money out of them in their final
| years
|
| Insurers and the government have the opposite incentive,
| but it's something to be concerned about.
|
| >there are already guardrails around these processes
|
| I don't think there are guardrails that can prevent what
| I'm talking about. Only the most egregious abuses would
| even be detectable.
|
| As long as you don't literally tell your mom to kill
| herself I don't think you could make it illegal. As it
| stands in the US I don't think you could make it illegal
| for someone to tell someone they "wish they were dead" in
| this situation.
| protonbob wrote:
| Some countries have nationalized healthcare
| rpdillon wrote:
| Not taking care of your mother while she's dying of
| Alzheimer's is not as easy as you might think.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| We don't talk about it a lot as a society, but some people
| just like killing people.
|
| The ordinary outlet for them is the military. Sometimes
| they become serial killers.
|
| A euthanasia industry would attract these people similarly
| to how police and security work attracts authoritarians and
| how clergy jobs attract pedophiles.
|
| That's not to say that _most_ people in the industry would
| enjoy killing people, but it would be a problem. And death
| is final; it 's impossible to fix mistakes. This is the
| same reason many people are opposed to the death penalty.
| hypeatei wrote:
| > This is the same reason many people are opposed to the
| death penalty.
|
| Death penalty is the government deciding to take your
| life based on what _they believe_ you did. I agree,
| mistakes there are bad. Assisted suicide consists of the
| person dying giving their consent to take their life.
| Quite different.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| Unfortunately consent is not always clear. For example,
| see my other comment in this thread about the reports on
| Dr Kevorkian's assisted suicides.
|
| Not only is _whether_ someone gives consent sometimes
| unclear, it 's also unclear if the consent was informed
| consent and whether it was uncoerced.
|
| Informed consent is obliquely mentioned in my other
| comment. For example, a patient may falsely believe their
| illness is terminal.
|
| I realize I replied to a question about financial
| incentives to talk about non-financial incentives. But
| coerced consent would often fall under the financial
| incentive heading. E.g. "consent to be euthanized or I'll
| contest the will."
|
| Forced "suicide" also has a long history, including in
| the ancient world. Arguably things like kamikaze might
| fall into that category. And it's a favorite method of
| execution in financial and espionage type cases because
| the method of coercion won't show up in the forensics.
|
| For these sorts of reasons, I think the risk of mistakes
| is high.
| nick__m wrote:
| The process in Quebec doesn't have those flaws, it is
| much superior than the one used in the rest of Canada :
| To obtain medical aid in dying in Quebec, people must
| meet all the following requirements: have a
| Quebec health insurance card, be 18 years old or
| older, have the mental capacity to make their own
| decisions about their medical care, be in one of
| these situations: and be in a state where
| their abilities are severely and permanently getting
| worse, with no chance of improvement, have a
| serious physical impairment that greatly affects their
| abilities for an extended period, be in constant
| and unbearable physical or psychological pain, be
| informed about any available means to relieve suffering,
| have decided that those means are intolerable.
| Once a doctor or SNP assesses the request, they must ask
| a second doctor or SNP to confirm in writing that the
| patient is eligible to receive medical aid in dying.
| The doctor or SNP must also ensure that several measures
| to protect the patient have been respected. They must
| ensure that: The patient made their request
| freely and with all the information necessary to make an
| informed decision. The patient repeated their
| request at different moments. The patient has had
| an opportunity to discuss the request with their loved
| ones. The patient has the opportunity to change
| their mind right up to the very last moment.
| If the patient has trouble communicating, the doctor or
| SNP must also ensure that the patient was given a
| reliable means of communication and understands the
| information they had received.
|
| from https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/medical-aid-in-
| dying/
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Inheritance, and for the government/insurance companies,
| there's the incentive of the one-time cost of euthanization
| being lower than the cost of care for the poor, disabled
| and/or the terminally ill.
| thrance wrote:
| Yet you don't see insurance companies hiring snipers to get
| rid of their oldest customers. Maybe the solution is to
| prosecute those who would push MAID too aggressively as we
| would those who push to suicide.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I think that Hunter Thompson basically did this. Kinda "on-
| brand" for him, really.
|
| I had a friend that decided to stop treatment (dialysis), when
| he realized that he'd never get off it (he couldn't get a
| transplant). He was in his late 60s.
|
| It was both a sad, and joyous experience. He took about a month
| to pass (renal failure). He was Catholic, and wouldn't do
| assisted suicide.
|
| During that month, a bunch of us would go over to his house,
| almost on a daily basis, and we'd just hang out. It was
| actually a great experience.
| mcdonje wrote:
| >He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide.
|
| I thought Jain the perspective shared in this comment is
| valuable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548178
|
| Well, not just the comment, but also the wikipedia article
| linked to in the comment.
|
| Obviously, Jainism isn't Catholicism, but this part of the
| wikipedia article got me thinking:
|
| >It is not considered a suicide by Jain scholars because it
| is not an act of passion, nor does it employ poisons or
| weapons.
|
| Catholics are probably never going to think suicide is ok,
| but I wonder if they could come around to a definition of
| suicide that is more narrow and which excludes death-with-
| dignity. If they did make that adjustment, I would personally
| agree with their stance.
|
| There is plenty of precedent for this legislation through
| definitional scoping in history in general, though I'm not an
| expert on Catholicism. The book "Legal systems very different
| from ours" talks about it, and gives examples. It's really
| the only option for any sort of change when you're dealing
| with decrees from a supernatural entity or an unchangeable
| part of a constitution.
| anothereng wrote:
| No, it will always be wrong to kill an innocent person
| whether that is yourself or another doesn't matter. Our
| lives are lent to us by God
| jacquesm wrote:
| You don't speak for or get to decide for other people,
| you only get to speak for and decide for yourself, and
| the same goes in principle for everybody else.
| mcdonje wrote:
| "Kill" is another concept that has differing definitional
| scopes, depending on religion or legal system. Or even
| differing for the same religion/legal system for
| different contexts and/or time periods.
| hyperbovine wrote:
| You omitted the _most_ on-brand part of this story, which is
| the part where (per his last wishes) Johnny Depp spent $3m on
| a party that involved firing Thompson's ashes out of a
| 150-foot tower in western Colorado.
|
| https://www.nyswritersinstitute.org/post/hunter-s-
| thompson-s...
| cal85 wrote:
| > That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't
| do it.
|
| I don't do it, but I'm not sure how that solves the problem of
| other people doing it.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| I've waffled between support and opposition of MAID a lot, for
| similar reasons. I think the morality of it depends heavily on
| social and economic context. In the US specifically, I worry
| that MAID could serve as a roundabout form of eugenics, even if
| it wasn't disproportionately recommended to any particular
| group.
|
| Imagine you're poor, your family is poor, and your friends are
| poor too. You spend 2 years in and out of inpatient care, and
| then die. Your family is now saddled with a debt they will
| never be able to pay. Your medical bills could make them
| homeless. Now imagine choosing between _that_ , and MAID. MAID
| is obviously a cheaper "out."
|
| Now remember the demographics of poor people in this country.
| If poor people end up being more likely to choose MAID, that
| necessarily means MAID would be used disproportionately on
| ethnic minorities and disabled people. So you end up with
| eugenics again, just because of the sorry state of our medical
| system and class demographics.
|
| Not all assisted suicide is eugenics, to be clear. There's a
| discussion of Jain practices elsewhere in this comment tree.
|
| But _man_ did I lose sleep at the thought that we could have
| people volunteering to kill themselves solely because they 're
| poor. You could argue that it's wrong _not_ to give someone the
| choice to die sooner, given that dying later could cause so
| much strife for their family. But I hold that the right
| solution isn 't making people die sooner, it's building a
| medical system where people never have to grapple with this
| choice in the first place.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| I find it really weird. So someone pays CHF 10K to be given a
| lethal injection then it becomes _dignified_ and the other way
| isn 't? I think it is an insult to the departed if you question
| the path they choose - because then both the choices can be
| questioned and judged.
|
| And did you just go to eating more fibre from euthanasia in the
| same few sentences? :D
| aniviacat wrote:
| > it keeps getting recommended
|
| In Germany, it was illegal for doctors to recommend or
| advertise abortion, and that worked pretty well. You could do
| the same for assisted suicide.
| Simulacra wrote:
| Ever since I watched my father waste away in agony and die in a
| veterans home, it has become my greatest fear in life to suffer
| until the bitter end. I choose euthanasia because I don't want to
| put my family through that, and the last thing I want to do, if
| you'll pardon me, is to waste away in my own urine and feces in
| what will likely be a sub optimal care situation.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Same with my grandmother that had dementia.
|
| You can get into a state of living death where the brain is
| mush and who you were is completely destroyed. That's hell for
| the family.
|
| I saw my grandmother forget her daughter (my mother) it was
| heartbreaking. Seeing my mom realize her mom forgot everything
| about their life together was just painful.
|
| It was just a sad existence to observe as well. Grandma lived
| for quiet a while with dementia and spent years trying to
| return to her childhood home. We'd constantly have to trick her
| into accepting help from us "strangers". Re-convincing her to
| come inside that these "strangers" wouldn't mind having her for
| a bit. Watching her read over the same page of a book for hours
| on end.
|
| That's not an existence I want for myself or my family.
| bramhaag wrote:
| I think it's beautiful he got to go out on his own terms, when he
| felt it was the right time to do so.
|
| I'm often reminded about a case in my own country: a young person
| had decided it was time to end her life after struggling for many
| years, without a sign of improvement. She was denied the right to
| euthanasia. After multiple failed suicide attempts, she went for
| the nuclear option and jumped in front of a train.
|
| Everyone deserves to die in a dignified and humane way, not in
| multiple pieces or with a mind deteriorated beyond recognition.
| Forcing prolonged suffering is unnecessarily cruel. I wish more
| countries were as progressive with euthenasia as Switzerland.
| gield wrote:
| Coincidentally, today there was an article in a Belgian
| newspaper about a 25-year-old woman who will undergo euthanasia
| in a few weeks due to severe psychological suffering with no
| prospect of improvement. After years of suffering and 40 failed
| suicide attempts, I indeed think it's much more dignified to
| have euthanasia as an option.
|
| Euthanasia has some strict rules in Belgium, especially for
| cases involving psychological suffering. In 2014, the age
| restriction was dropped (except for psychological suffering).
| Since then, 6 minors have received euthanasia.
| em500 wrote:
| I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in
| Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted
| suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1].
|
| In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the
| patient's suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of
| improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case
| here.
|
| [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-
| al...
| antegamisou wrote:
| Euthanasia in Switzerland ^ has been a notorious profitable
| practice for years, compared to the Netherlands where it's
| almost exclusively practiced on those with terminal
| debilitating disease.
|
| ^ Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means
| to it are made legal.
| InsideOutSanta wrote:
| It is illegal to profit from assisted suicide in Switzerland.
| All organizations that are involved in assisted suicide are
| nonprofits.
|
| Every assisted suicide is then investigated by the police to
| ensure no profit motives exist.
| antegamisou wrote:
| Why does one have to pay an extraordinary amount for it
| then? Does all money go to the facilities and the staff?
| (which mind you by law isn't mandated to consist of
| physicians)
|
| Again:
|
| _Yes, it 's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the
| means to it are made legal._
| djaboss wrote:
| Then I do wonder why no company has come knocking to the door
| of the hospital room where I'm sitting right this minute
| waiting for my terminally ill mother to die. Because since
| years she's member of EXIT, the well-known Swiss institution
| that is providing assisted suicide services, and it would
| still take several weeks for us to jump through all the
| required paper and legal hoops to get the ball rolling. And
| now she being already unconcious and therefore incapable,
| most ways are blocked already, as others pointed out, so I'm
| not sure we could accelerate the process at all.
|
| Sorry, but your comment smells rather about peddling fakery,
| especially as you have provided heaps of reliable references.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Wow, what a situation. Strength to you.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Stop spreading unsupported lies.
| e40 wrote:
| In California two doctors must certify the person has less than
| six months to live. A friend of my mother just took the option
| due to terminal cancer.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| It is surprisingly hard in NL; we have familiar Alzheimer and
| had some practice by now, but it is very easy (depressingly so)
| to arrange your assisted suicide for when you get Alzheimer a
| long time upfront and still not get it because you did
| something wrong in the procedures/paperwork and end up going
| through all the suffering you planned out not to go through. It
| is not 'oh then they just sit in a home without memories'; it
| is a devastating process definitely far worse than death.
| BeetleB wrote:
| In the US, in the states that have medical suicide, the problem
| is that you need to:
|
| 1. Administer the medication yourself
|
| 2. Be of "sane" mind at the time you do it.
|
| 3. Have a doctor certify that at the time you choose to do it,
| you are in unbearable pain/suffering, and there is no realistic
| relief from it.
|
| This rules out dementia (especially item 2). So people here who
| are in early stages of Alzheimers go to Switzerland as well.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| Now this is hilariously non-ironic.
|
| The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally
| chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing "increasing metal lapses",
| presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.
| xpe wrote:
| > Now this is ironic.
|
| Ironic is the opposite of what you mean, don't you think? By
| your explanation, Kahneman acted according to his life's work.
|
| > The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally
| chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing "increasing metal
| lapses", presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.
|
| That was possibly part of his motivation. But also the pain,
| suffering (goes broader than physical pain), confusion, and
| cost -- to him and his family.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| Thanks, I had a mental lapse - fixed it.
| poszlem wrote:
| I'm trying to figure out why this feels so unsettling to me. I
| can understand wanting to end one's life because of unbearable
| pain or illness, but something about this just feels wrong.
| locallost wrote:
| It's not unsettling for me, but I have a similar feeling. On
| the other hand, maybe he did have a medical issue, just chose
| not to disclose it. In any case it is his choice, as is the
| wish not to discuss it. I think this will be difficult to
| enforce, but I will personally respect it.
| bapak wrote:
| More of this, please.
|
| What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed
| ridden? This is how I will go.
| bn-l wrote:
| You will have an eternity to be dead.
|
| I want every second. Even if it's painful.
|
| I am still alive.
| raffael_de wrote:
| Are you sure you understand how painful pain can be?
| Especially when you experience it daily and there is no hope
| for recovery?
| bn-l wrote:
| I think you underestimate the length of eternity.
| wiseowise wrote:
| How do you know if someone is anti-assisted suicide or anti-
| abortion?
|
| They'll tell you, whenever you want to do anything with your
| own body.
| gcanyon wrote:
| I 100% understand his rationale, and in the same position I'd
| probably do the same -- "probably" because this is one of those
| things you can't possibly predict in advance.
| afh1 wrote:
| There's a Star Trek episode with this exact plot
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Ne...
| throwpoaster wrote:
| Assisted suicide is not how a healthy society should respond to
| serious mental health conditions.
| wiseowise wrote:
| The guy chose to quit on his own terms, healthy society
| shouldn't have a say in it.
| 7e wrote:
| Cryonic preservation is assisted suicide but with a small bonus
| chance of living forever. Seems preferable.
| a022311 wrote:
| Unless the situation ends up like in https://xkcd.com/989/
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's a scam.
| _ttg wrote:
| I was curious about _how_ he actually died and found an [1]
| article describing it:
|
| > Kahneman used the services of Pegasos in the village of Roderis
| in Nunningen, Switzerland. In the death room with a view over
| green hills, wearing a suit and tie, he lay on the bed and turned
| on an infusion of sodium pentobarbital himself. A companion held
| his hand and told him they were holding it on behalf of his loved
| ones. Kahneman's last words were "I feel their love."
|
| [1]: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-
| weltstar-...
| Kailhus wrote:
| This hit me harder than I thought it would.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| Is this https://pegasos-association.com the one?
|
| > Pegasos, a non-profit based in Basel, Switzerland, believes
| that it is the human right of every rational adult of sound
| mind, regardless of state of health, to choose the manner and
| timing of their death.
|
| I found this bit "regardless of state" really interesting.
|
| I wonder what their views would be for someone who wouldn't
| have a family and nothing much to do or explore after a certain
| age? Does it matter what nationality they are from? What if
| someone's reason is - they had savings and now they have run
| out of it and area already 55-60 or more and have no intention
| or plan to work anymore and don't want to go through the
| struggle of life? (Of course they would have had paid the
| euthanasia fees)
|
| How does it all happen?
| joomla199 wrote:
| Well they did say "rational adult of sound mind", and
| "rational" there easily disqualifies every human being on the
| planet, with all our evolved biases, heuristics, and common
| predictable misjudgments. I imagine its criteria applied
| arbitrarily.
| Tenoke wrote:
| >rational adult of sound mind", and "rational" there easily
| disqualifies every human being on the planet, with all our
| evolved biases, heuristics, and common predictable
| misjudgments.
|
| If only they had someone deeply familiar with the field who
| had been there.
| a022311 wrote:
| Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from
| the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary
| beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century:
|
| > ou doso de oude pharmakon oudeni aitetheis thanasimon, oude
| uphegesomai sumboulien toiende
|
| In English:
|
| > Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do
| so, nor will I suggest such a course.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
| huhtenberg wrote:
| That's likely to be a consequence of prevailing religious norms
| of the time.
| magicmicah85 wrote:
| The modern hippocratic oath has no mention of poisons, also
| doesn't require the oath to be sworn before the gods of the
| pantheon. Up until the 19th century, physicians didn't believe
| in germs either. Attitudes change with the knowledge we
| accumulate.
| lazyfanatic42 wrote:
| Took care of someone with Alzheimers for six years until they
| passed away. No one should have to exist like that, for that
| long. A biological shell simply of automatic inputs and outputs.
|
| Robin Williams had to hang himself.
|
| There should be easy medical options in the US.
| ocrow wrote:
| I think Alzheimer's is a particularly difficult case. Before
| diagnosis, many of us imagine that we wouldn't want to exist in
| a highly deteriorated state with no ability to care for
| ourselves. But as you start to decline, you still feel like
| yourself, just a very forgetful version of yourself. On which
| day do you decide that what remains of your mind isn't enough
| to make your available future days better than no future days?
|
| The instinct for self preservation is strong. Knowing what will
| come requires foresight and clarity. You may lose the capacity
| for informed decision making before the point where it's clear
| that there's not much to live for.
|
| Many of us lack the insight that Kahneman perhaps had that in
| order to take control of the end you may need to leave some
| good days on the table.
| bsimpson wrote:
| Robin Williams' end was even more grim than that sentence lets
| on. Horrible to think of such a loved man going out is such a
| desparate way.
| willmadden wrote:
| For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim
| doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers.
| It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness
| or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and
| misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands,
| Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.
| djaboss wrote:
| Please provide shocking examples, especially for Switzerland.
| I'm eager to learn about real arguments from the other side.
| gield wrote:
| Can you please list some of those examples?
|
| You didn't mention Belgium so I'm pleased to hear that Belgium
| is doing well according to you (4000 cases of euthanasia per
| year of which 80 are for psychological suffering, 1 child per
| year).
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| _"Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a
| debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't
| want it to be discussed publicly either.""_
|
| Seems like we should close this thread to honor these wishes
| sl-1 wrote:
| RIP, his work made a huge impression on me. And I admire the
| dignity to go when one chooses.
|
| I guess we are all Dying, Fast and Slow.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| Good account of his reasoning. Off topic, but my Dad's last
| girlfriend before he died two years ago was a co-founder of the
| Hemlock Society/International Right To Die organization - huge
| effort to get assisted suicide made legal in different tax
| jurisdictions around the world and different states in the US.
| circlefavshape wrote:
| My dad is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and it's made me
| think of what I'll do if I find myself in the same situation
|
| Assisted suicide sounds like a fine option until you think of its
| impact on your loved ones. Imagining putting my wife and kids
| through my deciding to die, and the process of them bringing me
| to the place where it happens - or imagining one of them doing
| the same thing - just fills me with horror
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Death comes for us all. It's okay to cultivate emotional
| fortitude to die on own terms, at the place and time of our
| choosing, with grace. Would you rather them remember you as a
| shell of who you were, long dead mentally while the body
| continues on? Death is a part of life we cannot avoid, nor
| should we.
|
| > If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth
| living", it is already too late --- Kahneman
|
| Live your life in a way that it is worth living until you no
| longer can, I suppose. To exist is hard, do your best.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| Death happens to all of us. I'm 51 and as far as I know have no
| terminal illness. I stress to everyone that I focus on "living
| a good life. Not a long life". My wife and I balance living
| every year like it might be our last and saving for a long
| life. We don't put off traveling, concerts, hanging out with
| friends and other experiences so we can "retire rich". If we
| can't afford expensive travel in our 60s because we spent our
| younger healthier years traveling - so what? Statistically we
| won't be healthier in ten years than we are now and we are both
| gym rats.
|
| I "retired my wife" at 46 in 2020, eight years into our
| marriage so she could enjoy her passion projects and I have
| turned down more lucrative jobs that would have required me to
| work harder and be in an office so I could work remotely from
| anywhere - but realistically in US time zones.
|
| Everyone who knows me, knows that I would die with no regrets.
| As far as my wife who loves me and my grown (step)kids who I
| know also love me, I don't owe physical suffering to anyone.
| Assisted suicide because of Alzheimer's is more tricky than
| something like cancer though. What can you do? Sign something
| in advance where once you can't pass a cognitive test three
| months in a row - kill you?
| bsimpson wrote:
| One of my friend's parents had a neurological disorder in his
| later years and was considering suicide. I don't know the
| details, but I know he had mentioned it to my friend. I believe
| he was convinced to try one more procedure that the logistics
| never lined up for. He ended up dying anyway a short number of
| years later.
|
| He kept to himself, so I didn't know him well. I did know that
| he was an independent and thoughtful man who hated that his
| tremor got so bad he couldn't feed himself. I remember talking
| with his family about if those self-balancing Google spoons
| might help.
|
| There are two kinds of people for whom suicide sounds
| appealing: those in poor health who don't want to experience it
| getting poorer, and those for whom the difficulty of being
| alive outweighs the joy of it. If you're in the former camp,
| that pain is coming for them anyway. If you're in the latter
| camp and still make the decision, maybe you don't have those
| close bonds that make you want to persevere.
| airbreather wrote:
| I saw someone interviewed who had set the criteria of being able
| to enjoy some ice cream with his children and grandchildren at
| the regular family dinner on Sunday late afternoons.
|
| He said that alone made life worth living, for him and them, but
| once any deteriorating conditions rendered him permanently unable
| to participate in this weekly activity then he felt it was time
| to go.
|
| Maybe having a pre-set condition like this is less arbitrary, and
| also allows everyone involved to understand as the time comes
| closer.
| driverdan wrote:
| This is blogspam of the original WSJ article:
| https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assis...
|
| Some of its wording is weird, like mentioning his wife dying in
| the same context of two other partners with no explanation. The
| original is a much better read.
| EasyMark wrote:
| Seems like a good way to go out, "my choice, my body" . I realize
| some psychological exam should be necessary before such things
| but it really should be self-determined within reason. I hate
| that USA is so far behind the curve on this, but eventually we
| might catch up on it with Europe and not have to resort to more
| ugly methods.
| penguin_booze wrote:
| Death with dignity must be more accessible to more people who, by
| their rational choice, wants to use it.
| bikelang wrote:
| > Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a
| debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't
| want it to be discussed publicly either."
|
| Sorry mate.
| hannofcart wrote:
| I see a lot of comments here expressing disapproval about
| assisted suicide.
|
| I'd like to quote from the HN guidelines:
|
| > Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please
| don't be rigidly or generically negative.
|
| With that said I urge you those who disapprove to ask whether you
| are being "rigidly negative" about this.
|
| 1. Is this disapproval perhaps coming from your religious
| context? If so, please pause and consider why that may not apply
| to the rest of us. And also whether you really think that your
| religious beliefs must be forced on the rest of us.
|
| 2. Is this disapproval coming from a sense of deep unease that
| this post causes? If so, know that this unease is shared by most
| of us. But try and muster the fortitude to go past that unease
| and consider the decision from a place of compassion.
| abraae wrote:
| My mum died earlier this year. In hospital, she was approved
| for assisted dying. There is a mandatory waiting period as part
| of the process.
|
| Many/most of the nursing staff are Filipino and strongly Roman
| Catholic.
|
| As she lay dying and unable to speak, one of the nurses
| undertook to convert her at this last minute to their religion.
| At night, alone, after all visitors had left, she would come
| into mum's room and press mum, a very committed atheist, to
| pray for her salvation.
|
| It's hard to describe how vulnerable someone is who is stuck in
| their bed and dependant on the nursing team for everything,
| even sips of water.
|
| I will say this was not representative of her care, but it
| opened my eyes to the lengths religious believers will go to to
| push their views on others.
| hannofcart wrote:
| That was a heartrending account. Am so sorry for your loss.
| Both she and you deserved to be treated better.
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| Sorry to hear that, that is completely unacceptable behavior.
| l5870uoo9y wrote:
| Everyone talks about Alzheimer's and dementia, but Daniel
| Kahneman has neither. He chose to commit suicide because he
| wanted to avoid "natural decline." That's an unexpected statement
| from a 90-year-old. I'm more surprised by his lack of will to
| live and that he just "gives up" and throws away the most
| valuable thing he has.
| sashank_1509 wrote:
| I'm young, but I'm at the age where I've seen many grandparents
| pass away and I must say, I support assisted suicide. The
| helplessness of the last stretch of your life, something that can
| last a couple of years, where you often need to help to even
| stand, doesn't seem like a period of time worth living. Further
| modern medicines, in my opinion insane focus on extending life of
| the very old, compounds this situation to something much worse. I
| know of a relative who had 5 surgeries, 2 ICU admits in his final
| year, he was 84. First they were convinced his kidney was
| failing, then his liver, then they thought cancer and on an on
| that I couldn't help but suspect whether this was a money
| grabbing scheme.
|
| I do not know if this was ever widely practiced, but I think the
| ancient Indian ritual of going to the forest and starving to
| death in your last days is basically fine. It gives a dignified,
| sacred end to a life, while the modern medical sciences constant
| battle against the inevitable ends up distorting and deforming
| the last days of your life and forces you to leave without
| dignity clinging to the last vestiges of your humanity that's
| left.
| Razengan wrote:
| How much of the taboos against the right to suicide and abortion
| are because modern societies and economies depend on an ever-
| increasing population?
| Animats wrote:
| "My work is done. Why wait?" - George Eastman's suicide note. He
| took a final walk around Kodak Park before he died.
| benlivengood wrote:
| I find it somewhat fascinating that the article has a giant
| "Suicidal thoughts? You can find help here:" footer.
|
| I don't think it's a link to an assisted suicide/dying with
| dignity center.
|
| Society's relationship with intentional end of life decisions is
| fraught, to say the least.
| christkv wrote:
| I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be
| against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has
| gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands
| and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of
| people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state
| sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what
| kind of psychopath assists in the killing and why is that person
| allowed to keep practicing. Finally if we can kill ill people
| what really is the difference in implementing the death penalty
| and justifying it by ending the criminal insane's suffering?
| gield wrote:
| What kind of psychopath is against people dying in a dignified
| way?
| agnosticmantis wrote:
| "His decision seems to have been based less on his famous
| scientific thinking and more on a very personal feeling. He
| wanted to retain his autonomy until the end and to shape his own
| end."
|
| So you could say it was more system 1 thinking rather than system
| 2.
|
| I would've expected the opposite given our survival instincts.
| tonymet wrote:
| assisted suicide bears risks similar to adding benevolent
| backdoors to software. The policy rests on the assumption that
| policies and those enforcing them will always be benevolent.
|
| We're opening up tremendous abuses of power by allowing the state
| to kill people for non-criminal behavior.
|
| Sure the first iteration is presented as "voluntary", but the
| next edition will be for the greater good. And how about sinister
| / malevolent abuses of "voluntary" suicide -- similar to abuses
| over guardianship.
|
| at least with guardianship the person can be set free, because
| they are still alive.
| torginus wrote:
| This is a bit of an aside but I wonder if people who possess
| greater intellectual capacity are more resilient - at least
| outwardly - against old-age mental decline, as even their mental
| function diminishes, they have an excess buffer so that they are
| slower to cross the 'threshold' where their inability to mentally
| function in everyday life becomes apparent?
| 0xDEAFBEAD wrote:
| Lots of discussion of the morality of assisted suicide in this
| thread, and the circumstances under which it should be legal.
|
| In the cryonics community, it's a common complaint that they have
| to wait until the patient is legally dead in order to
| cryopreserve, which can make it difficult to cryopreserve under
| ideal circumstances.
|
| I like the idea of allowing individuals to opt for
| cryopreservation over end-of-life care. End-of life care costs so
| much money, it could even be neutral from a financial
| perspective.
|
| Since cryopreservation lacks the finality of other forms of
| death, it could also address some of the ethical dilemmas around
| assisted dying. After all, a lot of end-of-life care seems to be
| motivated by a futile attempt to somehow delay the inevitable.
| From my perspective, cryopreservation seems slightly less futile.
|
| If medical technology continues to advance, maybe in the year
| 2500 there will be people walking around who were born in the
| 1900s and can give talks about their experiences. Wouldn't that
| be cool? It would help a lot if just a single country to made it
| possible to get cryopreserved before you're legally dead.
| krapp wrote:
| You're talking about cryonics as if it were an established,
| scientifically proven and effective technology, but it doesn't
| work and is widely considered to be pseudoscience.
|
| And mentioning the cost of end-of-life care is risible when
| your alternative is paying paying indefinite rent to a company
| for freezer space to keep a corpse frozen.
| ares623 wrote:
| I wish billionaires believed in it. Would make the world a
| much better place.
| abstractspoon wrote:
| I will, ahem, take steps to ensure I never get dementia
| vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
| We definitely need a better culture around dying. My mom is 95
| and slowly everything she likes is being taken away from her.
| Going for a walk is difficult because she has unpredictable
| falls, husband is dead, all friends are dead, eyesight is so bad
| she can't read anymore, memory is failing. Really nothing to look
| forward to. Just existing and waiting for things to get worse.
|
| Mentally she is still pretty clear and she often says it would be
| best if she doesn't wake up in the morning.
|
| I think it would be better for everybody if we had a way to have
| a ceremony where we all say goodbye and then end it.
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