[HN Gopher] The product of the railways is the timetable
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The product of the railways is the timetable
        
       Author : NaOH
       Score  : 72 points
       Date   : 2025-10-06 16:02 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (springbett.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (springbett.substack.com)
        
       | jacknews wrote:
       | It's one product, sure.
       | 
       | Arguably more important is standard time.
       | 
       | Before the railways towns ran on local-noon time, so the railways
       | and their timetables required time to be synchronized across
       | regions.
        
         | immibis wrote:
         | The most important product a train system offers is getting you
         | from A to B.
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | The GP is referring to the very early days of railway - only
           | in 1840, the railway emergence led to standardized time [1]
           | to make drafting timetables and schedules easier.
           | 
           | The benefits and downsides are something that we still
           | experience two centuries later, all thanks to the railways.
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_time
        
             | immibis wrote:
             | And yet, the most important product provided by the
             | railways is getting you (or stuff) from A to B.
        
       | dajonker wrote:
       | That graphic from the Swiss Railways is absolutely wonderful
       | 
       | https://sma-partner.com/storage/app/media/Dokumente/Netzgraf...
        
         | bloak wrote:
         | Nice, but I did one of the obvious things and looked for
         | Geneva. Near the bottom left it says "Geneve-Aeroport". Is that
         | labelling the small portrait-format grey rectangle to the left
         | of the larger landscape-format rectangle that should be
         | labelled Geneve-Cornavin?
        
           | lmm wrote:
           | Yes. I guess the main station is considered obvious from
           | context?
        
           | telefun5463 wrote:
           | Noticed it as well, it seems they forgot the Geneve-Cornavin
           | label indeed.
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | If I could find one like that for London I'd probably get it
         | printed and hang it on my wall.
        
           | 6LLvveMx2koXfwn wrote:
           | Not quite but nearly: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-
           | information/maps-of-th...
        
         | superpope99 wrote:
         | huh I find this totally incomprehensible. Is this easier to
         | read if you spend a lot of time looking at wiring diagrams?
        
           | brainwad wrote:
           | It's a technical diagram - it's really not supposed to be
           | that comprehensible, but more of a reference. The passenger-
           | facing publications use regular timetable layouts.
        
           | 1718627440 wrote:
           | Is it? What problems do you face?
        
       | globular-toast wrote:
       | This is the way I like to think about problems. Essentially you
       | start backwards from the problem and (hopefully) arrive at a
       | solution. If at some point in the depths of abstraction you lose
       | touch or forget what that original problem was, you've already
       | failed.
       | 
       | Building infrastructure for the sake of infrastructure is a good
       | example of being completely out of touch. The problem was there
       | weren't enough trains at the right time to the right places. The
       | bridge builders clearly weren't thinking about that.
       | 
       | In my work this often happens because of the XY problem. People
       | ask for X, but in fact they need Y and X is just their proposed
       | solution. This would be like people asking for a new train from
       | Cambridge to London, but in fact they are really going to Oxford
       | and were only using London to connect.
       | 
       | There are also assumptions that even the most pedantic people
       | don't mention all the time. If people ask for more comfortable
       | seats on trains, they implicitly also mean at the right time.
       | They don't mean a comfortable seat at 2:00 in the morning that
       | takes 3x as long to get there.
       | 
       | I've often thought some kind of daily meditation to remind
       | yourself of what the problems are is useful. There are the
       | "bedrock" problems (like the train timetable) that never change,
       | and there is the specific problem you are trying to solve right
       | now (like connecting Cambridge to Oxford). I think it's worth
       | thinking about it every day lest you lose sight and build the
       | bridge nobody needed.
        
       | hshdhdhehd wrote:
       | He missed something. The train means you dont have to park. That
       | is often a big advantage. Parking is expensive and stressful if
       | there are not many spots. In a city the train system can probably
       | get you closer to where you want to be. Especially if you dont
       | want to pay top $ for parking.
       | 
       | Parking in cities is also stressful with finding tbe entry on the
       | correct one where you booked. And you miss the entry? Yep that is
       | a one way street. Go round the block? No right turn? Satnav says
       | 15 minutes to get back there again.
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | If the only train was 6 hours before you needed to be there
         | then you'd probably just deal with parking instead.
         | 
         | The point isn't that the timetable is the _only_ reason to use
         | a train, it 's that without a good timetable it really doesn't
         | matter what other advantages it offers and planners need to
         | keep this in mind at all times.
        
           | Tade0 wrote:
           | A while ago a train line that's around a kilometre from my
           | place reopened after 20 years and I wanted to use it, as it
           | would outright teleport me to the city centre in 8 minutes
           | having no stops in between(vs 20min by tram), but it appears
           | to depart every 1,5h on average and isn't very compatible
           | with commuting.
        
       | the_gipsy wrote:
       | Contrived conclusion: Given a good frequency, passengers can
       | completely ignore schedules.
        
         | th0ma5 wrote:
         | Truly a wonderful revelation I had to stop reading the time
         | table and see that it says every 15 minutes or so a bus will
         | come during the times I'd expect it to, worst case 45, etc.
        
         | immibis wrote:
         | In Berlin, in a large part of the city, the trains come every
         | 4-5 minutes. You rarely need to check a timetable (and when you
         | do, you'd rather check the app, which knows where the trains
         | actually are, not just where they should be). You just show up
         | at the station and wait for the next train.
        
         | richardwhiuk wrote:
         | If trains are frequent enough, passengers do ignore schedules
         | and just turn up. This is common on metro/subway/underground
         | services.
        
         | VBprogrammer wrote:
         | Something which I only realised by watching a London
         | Underground driver who was vlogging for a while (before he was
         | asked to stop) is that, yes, the frequency of the trains is the
         | main metric for customers.
         | 
         | However, once things go off schedule it can have pretty acute
         | consequences for drivers and operational staff. The timetables
         | are built around having drivers at specific places at specific
         | times who will have required breaks at certain times and a
         | maximum allowable working time. The rolling stock itself needs
         | to be where it's needed as well, it's easy for it to get
         | bunched up behind a track circuit failure etc.
        
         | decimalenough wrote:
         | Yes, that works great in dense cities that can justify running
         | a train every 5 minutes. What sets Switzerland apart is that it
         | can offer reliable, punctual service to tiny mountain villages
         | that may only have a couple of trains a day, but those trains
         | are carefully scheduled so that you can get there from Zurich
         | or wherever with an absolute minimum of waiting around for your
         | connections or fretting if you'll make it. (In the unlikely
         | event that your train is a few minutes late, they will hold the
         | connection.)
        
           | eru wrote:
           | > Yes, that works great in dense cities that can justify
           | running a train every 5 minutes.
           | 
           | Indeed, here in Singapore during peak hours the trains come
           | even more often. And that's not counting all the trains in a
           | station, just the ones from one metro line that come and go
           | on one platform in one direction.
           | 
           | Every once in a while, they are upgrading the signalling
           | systems, so that they can squeeze even more trains in.
        
       | dvdkon wrote:
       | This is an interesting conclusion to a problem other countries
       | are facing as well. The Czech Republic fully divided its railway
       | infrastructure (under SZ) and national train operator (CD) sooner
       | than most of the EU. SZ being incompetent is a favourite topic of
       | railway fans here, but most everyone agrees that this kind of
       | split was for the best, at least for long-distance trains.
       | 
       | Pretty soon after the railways were opened to non-state
       | operators, quality of long-distance train routes improved, both
       | by new trains by private operators and increased competition
       | forcing CD to improve. On regional railways, where the state pays
       | for train operations, costs have gone down thanks to competition.
       | It seems to me like this model can work well, you just need an
       | infrastructure operator that's receptive to its "customers"
       | (which SZ often isn't), or a political structure that can force
       | them to listen.
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > On regional railways, where the state pays for train
         | operations, costs have gone down thanks to competition.
         | 
         | German here. Yes, costs have gone down thanks to competition,
         | but at what cost?
         | 
         | IMHO, the cost of "competition" on regionals has been massive.
         | A lot of infrastructure has had to be rebuilt (e.g. maintenance
         | shops), a huge expense and waste of space (think about how long
         | a regional train is - easily 150 meters [1], which means the
         | shop has to be at least that long). Some operators chose to run
         | with old, run-down rolling stock or go for the absolutely
         | cheapest options. Others, and that has happened at least twice
         | in the last few years, calculate their offers to be barely
         | profitable and then a crisis (Covid, Russian invasion and
         | energy cost explosion) hits, forcing the companies into
         | bankruptcy. Cleanliness of trains, regular expulsion of toilets
         | takes a hit as that's a very easy way to save a few hundred
         | euros. In the case of demand surges (e.g. soccer games,
         | Oktoberfest, Karneval), there's no way to ad-hoc add rolling
         | stock and drivers because there are no spares and modern
         | rolling stock isn't compatible with anything other than its
         | specific model and configuration.
         | 
         | And some regional tender processes have gotten even worse,
         | where the state prescribes or outright buys the rolling
         | stock... and suddenly the only way the providers can compete is
         | staffing cost.
         | 
         | Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather like the old system back!
         | 
         | [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Desiro_HC
        
           | eru wrote:
           | Complaining about disastrous and unnecessary competition has
           | a long and proud tradition.
           | 
           | > And some regional tender processes have gotten even worse,
           | where the state prescribes or outright buys the rolling
           | stock... and suddenly the only way the providers can compete
           | is staffing cost.
           | 
           | Sounds pretty bad.
        
           | inglor_cz wrote:
           | In Czechia, competition was a huge boon for the railways. I
           | still remember the rusty, hopelessly dirty Communist trains
           | with fake leather seats that glued your buttocks with sweat,
           | "open hole" toilets that stank to high heaven in summer and
           | froze your ass off in the winter. Nowadays, we usually ride
           | in nice and clean trains, and on the main lines of some
           | operators, there is a delivery service where you can order
           | small snacks or even warm meals to your seat and get them.
           | Compared to the past, it is a freaking luxury.
           | 
           | Maybe the problem that you described is German-specific. Over
           | my lifetime, as I visited Germany, I noticed a steady drift
           | towards lower quality in almost all public services, not just
           | trains. As if the German voters just somehow stopped to
           | demand or value quality of governance. IDK why, but it can be
           | seen everywhere. And there is already a visible contrast in
           | public cleanliness and order when you travel, say, from
           | Zurich to Munich. Germany looks like a has-been.
           | 
           | That wasn't the case in the 90s. Back then, the difference
           | between BRD and Schweiz was negligible.
           | 
           | My pet theory is that Merkel's 16 years of sleepy rule was
           | too much. Most politicians need to fear replacement in order
           | to do something. If the nation votes for the same person over
           | and over again, there will be no real political competition.
           | 
           | But IDK how that works on the Lander level.
        
             | usrnm wrote:
             | Absolutely the same change happened in Russia over the past
             | 30 years or so, but it had nothing to do with privatisation
             | or competition, all trains are still operated by the same
             | state-owned corporation.
        
         | eru wrote:
         | You might the Wikipedia page on the impact of British Rail
         | privatisation at
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of...
         | 
         | Looking at graphs with clear improvements on many metrics
         | straight after privatisation, you might think the change would
         | be universally acclaimed. High fives all around. Instead, it's
         | one of the UK's most hated things the government has ever done.
         | 
         | I especially like the almost miraculous recovery in rail's
         | share of passenger transport. Or just the very first graph on
         | the page, that shows the total number of passengers.
        
           | pjc50 wrote:
           | > Looking at graphs with clear improvements on many metrics
           | .. one of the UK's most hated things the government has ever
           | done
           | 
           | This is a classic of metrics driven management, isn't it.
           | Customer satisfaction isn't in the metrics so people stand
           | around saying "well they should be happy!"
           | 
           | Mainly about the cost, but the overcrowding on certain lines
           | and the unreliability are also major factors. Commuters end
           | up using the train because they're more or less forced to -
           | you're not going to drive into rush hour London, and there's
           | nowhere to park; and that's also a matter of policy to get
           | people on the trains for sustainability reasons.
           | 
           | The "playing at shops" market setup exacerbates the problems.
           | Original comment says "costs have gone down due to
           | competition", but since the UK's operators are little
           | regional monopolies they don't actually compete. The
           | operators own neither track nor rolling stock; most of the
           | money flows to the "train landlords", the ROSCOs.
           | 
           | Privatising the track, through "Railtrack" was the big
           | disaster. They cut maintenance, but when you enshittify
           | railways eventually people get killed, and nationalization
           | was inevitable after Hatfield.
        
             | eru wrote:
             | They managed to increase rail's share of overall transport.
             | Reversing long running trends from before.
             | 
             | > Commuters end up using the train because they're more or
             | less forced to [...]
             | 
             | Rail transport had been losing passenger share. Did the
             | private companies somehow figure out how to 'more or less
             | force' people to take the train? Why couldn't the
             | government rail do that before?
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | > Why couldn't the government rail do that before?
               | 
               | They didn't want to. Privatisation was the era of
               | Thatcher and Major, the discovery of North Sea oil
               | reserves, and of the same general desire to culturally
               | align with US (including car culture) that to the uban
               | design found in Milton Keynes 30 years earlier.
        
           | grues-dinner wrote:
           | I agree privatisation did indeed cause a massive revamp of
           | train usage, and I feel like the nostalgia is sometimes rose-
           | tinted and misplaced because 80s BR by all accounts was
           | pretty bad even in the context of the UK in the 80s.
           | 
           | On the other hand, from about the 90s onwards there was a
           | huge increase in London employment relative to the rest of
           | the country, and also a huge (5x or more over that time)
           | house price increase in London. This pushed a lot of people
           | into the commuter belt. and As you basically cannot drive
           | into London from there, those miles can only be provided by
           | rail.
           | 
           | It would be interesting to know how much of the effect is in
           | the South east, and how much is showing labour migration into
           | a rail-centric region after industrial sectors outside the
           | South-east were dynamited in the 80s.
           | 
           | And privatisation does usually have a cycle: influx of cheap
           | capital in a boom phase, followed by a slow ratching squeeze
           | as you struggle to exceed that great initial growth every
           | year thereafter.
        
             | jstanley wrote:
             | Could you have it backwards? Viable rail transport could
             | have increased the amount of people who can work in London,
             | and increase the radius in which they can live.
        
               | grues-dinner wrote:
               | Indeed, it's possible. It's probably a mutual thing, and
               | the existing rail-centrism of London would certainly have
               | helped fuel the financialisation of the UK economy. You
               | couldn't build Canary Wharf if no one could get to it.
               | 
               | London always had the better railway lines anyway,
               | privatisation or not. In particular, radial London
               | commuter lines mostly escaped the Beeching cuts. Post-
               | industrial financialisation in London was the crown jewel
               | of the 90s economic strategy. So it feels (feels/reals
               | alert) unlikely that it was specifically the railways
               | being private that led to the boom, but injecting private
               | investment right then could well have been some grease on
               | the wheels.
               | 
               | Of course every private cash injection comes with the
               | long term squeeze as the initial YoY becomes hard to
               | sustain over decades.
        
               | eru wrote:
               | > London always had the better railway lines anyway,
               | privatisation or not.
               | 
               | Well, they were first privately built, anyway. At least
               | most of them.
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | It was always viable? It may not have been as comfortable
               | or safe (slam-door trains) as people liked, but it was
               | always crucial to London working for the 20th century.
               | 
               | Privatization didn't increase capacity, did it? It
               | certainly didn't build any new lines.
               | 
               | I'm not sure it injected any capital either, subsidy was
               | maintained throughout? Arguably paying dividends while
               | receiving public subsidy has been taking capital _out_ of
               | the system.
        
               | eru wrote:
               | Well, a well run mature company should return money to
               | shareholders. That's why shareholders give money to
               | companies in the first place.
               | 
               | > Privatization didn't increase capacity, did it? It
               | certainly didn't build any new lines.
               | 
               | I don't think they privatised the rails themselves, only
               | the trains.
        
               | twic wrote:
               | They did. Then later on nationalised them again.
        
               | robocat wrote:
               | New Zealand sold the national network to Toll of
               | Australia, who slowly ran it into the ground (I suspect
               | one underlying problem is that it just wasn't at all
               | profitable). Labour later bought it back from Toll
               | (costing about $550 per working person). Passenger
               | service is a very minor component of the national service
               | (mostly the interisland ferry, which is a complete
               | cockup).
               | 
               | Upthread comment: >[privatisation is] one of the UK's
               | most hated things the government has ever done
               | 
               | In New Zealand, a lot of the political fallout from
               | privatisation came from older people who love trains and
               | talk a lot of crap about how good they are. They are
               | uneconomic in New Zealand, regardless of how efficient
               | people think they _should_ be.
               | 
               | Voters don't like reality (few have any working knowledge
               | of business), and most politics seems to be about finding
               | alternative acceptable ways to present reality to voters.
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | > Well, a well run mature company should return money to
               | shareholders. That's why shareholders give money to
               | companies in the first place.
               | 
               | Sure, but what does any of that have to do with TOCs?
               | They're badly run, transient shells, which are given
               | money by the government.
               | 
               | It should be illegal for any company to take public
               | subsidy and pay dividends at the same time.
               | 
               | > I don't think they privatised the rails themselves,
               | only the trains.
               | 
               | See the sad history of Railtrack Plc.
        
             | youngtaff wrote:
             | BR was deliberately underfunded throughout the 70s / 80s
             | prior to privatisation
             | 
             | They did some fantastic work on high speed trains etc but
             | it was all scrapped
        
       | walthamstow wrote:
       | I'm surprised the author doesn't mention that centralised time
       | itself was a product of the railway. Prior to that, every town
       | had its own time, London and Bristol were 20 mins apart. In order
       | to have a central timetable, there had to be a central time.
        
         | zzbn00 wrote:
         | Yes, and it was a huge thing at the time. The social effects of
         | all this time coordination and time tabling are one of the
         | underlying themes of Stoker's novel Dracula.
        
           | Juliate wrote:
           | And it's still a huge thing that shifted with the Internet
           | too.
           | 
           | Prior to it, yes, there was international phone lines, but
           | those were still expensive enough you might ignore them.
           | 
           | Before then, I'd say around start of the 90's in Europe, you
           | did not represent yourself being in sync with someone, anyone
           | abroad (but perhaps that started to become conceivable for
           | people who could afford frequent international calls or
           | travel).
           | 
           | And that conditioned how you perceived your own time, the
           | time of others, the events here and over there, and the
           | effort you took into communicating long distance, through
           | letters.
        
             | Symbiote wrote:
             | I was recently a guest staying at an elderly woman's large
             | house.
             | 
             | The room I slept in was full of junk, but what caught my
             | eye were envelopes with stamps from the 1950s/1960s. The
             | "From" name was the woman's late husband, and they were all
             | from two African countries that were then part of the
             | British Empire.
             | 
             | I had heard her talk about when her husband was working in
             | Africa, but until I saw the big pile of letters I hadn't
             | considered that this was the only way the young couple
             | could keep in contact when someone's work required long
             | periods of international travel.
        
               | zzbn00 wrote:
               | No need to go as far as Africa. Basic landline telephones
               | spread into poorer/more rural parts of Europe only in
               | 1980s and 1990s. Until then it was either taking the bus
               | to see people in person, or sending a letter....
               | 
               | E.g. quick search revealed this pamphlet from 1988 Spain,
               | showing that ~30% of households did not at time yet have
               | a telephone: https://www.telefonica.com/en/wp-
               | content/uploads/sites/5/202...
        
       | MomsAVoxell wrote:
       | The product of the railways is _the successful arrival of
       | passengers at their chosen destination_.
       | 
       | The fact that this isn't obvious, and that instead the _means by
       | which that product is delivered_ is considered more important
       | than the actual arrival of passengers, is very telling.
       | 
       | This is a common issue in the technology world - too often, the
       | actual end result is overlooked, for the sake of the means by
       | which that product is produced. Your special organisational
       | tricks mean nothing if the customer is left at the station,
       | standing in the rain, hundreds of kilometres from home.
       | 
       | The timetable doesn't get anyone home. The trains do. The
       | timetable just describes the intent - it is a _requirement which
       | describes a service_ , not a product. The train is required to
       | show up at that time, and by publishing it the train company is
       | establishing agreement with its customers in an open and fair
       | manner.
       | 
       | A product is something _which is produced_ , and the word
       | 'product' describes, after the fact, that which was produced. A
       | service is an act which is performed in support of producing
       | something. Timetables are a service which are subservient to the
       | fact of actually producing the desired result. I do not go to the
       | train station to look at the services being promised delivery; I
       | go to engage in the act of using that service, to gain my desired
       | product: my ass at home, making a cuppa.
       | 
       | Disclaimer: if you've taken a train in any one of 38 different
       | countries around the world, chances are your safety has been
       | being predicted by SIL4-level online tests I've written for that
       | purpose ..
        
         | winternewt wrote:
         | The article got off on the wrong foot from the start by
         | separating the purpose from the product. To my mind the purpose
         | _is_ the product and always will be.
        
         | superpope99 wrote:
         | I think the "successful arrival" framing isn't accurate. Or at
         | least not comprehensive. Granted, "Commuter travel" vs "Leisure
         | travel" are probably two quite different products.
         | 
         | Marketing guy Rory Sutherland talks about the product of the
         | train journey a lot. I think there's a lot of wisdom in the
         | idea of spending finite budget trying to make the travel
         | experience more enjoyable rather than trying to make the
         | journey quicker. (excuse the shortform slop)
         | https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Bywe3NUOB1I
        
           | MomsAVoxell wrote:
           | Tell me the percentage of passengers that get on a train not
           | intending to arrive at their desired destination ..
           | 
           | >Granted, "Commuter travel" vs "Leisure travel" are probably
           | two quite different products.
           | 
           | The distinction is irrelevant, since both groups are
           | travelling and, presumably wish to effect the end result of
           | that travel: to arrive.
           | 
           | Sure, travelling in style and class and comfort - for sure,
           | these are secondary sub-products/-services. But I don't get
           | on the train for its food or for the disco car - I do,
           | eventually, actually want to arrive in Hamburg.
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | People sometimes take leisure train trips that drop them
             | off at the same location they boarded the train. That
             | destination can be reached faster if the trip never
             | occurred, so that's not what people are paying for.
             | 
             | Similarly leisure trips can be vastly less sensitive to
             | moderate delays, thus some sleeper trains stop at night so
             | people can get a better rest even if it defeats the
             | purpose.
        
               | MomsAVoxell wrote:
               | Yeah, but those are edge cases and are in no way
               | representative of the final services and products of rail
               | companies across the world.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | Everyone is looking for a slightly different product, but
               | edge case can tell you a lot about market conditions.
               | 
               | A highly optimized overnight train to Disneyland should
               | look different than an optimized overnight train to
               | Chicago.
        
               | MomsAVoxell wrote:
               | Yet .. both cases have a destination.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | A stop sure, but the vast majority of people would want a
               | round trip to Disney.
               | 
               | Chicago is likely a stop along a longer journey and a
               | significant number of passengers would happily skip it
               | allowing for more freedom in timing.
        
               | MomsAVoxell wrote:
               | Cool. Now you're no longer discussing the nature of the
               | product of rail transportation, but rather the nature of
               | consumers' free will.
               | 
               | Either way, if you got on a trip to Disney and ended up
               | in Chicago, would you say that the rail company delivered
               | the product as promised?
        
         | slavoingilizov wrote:
         | Did you read the entire article? That's exactly the point it's
         | making, but you decided to pick on the word "timetable"
        
           | crazygringo wrote:
           | To be fair, the article is terribly written.
           | 
           | It doesn't even get to its main point, which is that it's
           | about _connections_ between trains, until halfway through.
           | And then it goes into privatization vs nationalization.
           | 
           | A good article should tell you what it's about in its first
           | few paragraphs. But the beginning of this article is some
           | weird high-concept claim that isn't what the rest of it is
           | about, and completely deserves GP's criticism.
        
         | BOOSTERHIDROGEN wrote:
         | SIL as safety integrity level ?
        
         | 1718627440 wrote:
         | What the article points out is that the distinguishing feature
         | of the railway is that the company has no control how and when
         | you use the train. It's less like someone selling you a journey
         | and more like renting a car. You do not get promised to be
         | brought to your destination, you get promised the availability
         | of the vehicle. That's the same with railways, you get promised
         | the availability of movement at a specific time. That's what
         | the timetable is.
         | 
         | That's also a common criticism by people who prefer there cars:
         | With a railway you need to put in work and decision how you
         | want to travel to a degree that you don't need to in a car.
        
         | BobbyTables2 wrote:
         | Now replace "timetable" with OKRs (objectives and key results).
        
       | Juliate wrote:
       | It's an interesting take, and you may as well map it to
       | industrial projects, architecture, software to see it from a
       | different perspective.
       | 
       | The timetable is the specs. The product is what your customers
       | experience.
       | 
       | The specs (loose or... very specific) is definitely a major
       | product step. But in that it is a mean to deliver the
       | service/experience in the end. Without the implementation details
       | (that do not live in the spec), you get often unsatisfied people
       | everywhere.
        
       | maelito wrote:
       | In codeberg.org/cartes/serveur I'm building a stack to visualise
       | transit plans using node-GTFS and setup and update a motis
       | instance for transit calculations.
       | 
       | Open source transit plans are under-developped. Almost everything
       | still needs to be invented.
        
       | emersion wrote:
       | There are open-source projects trying to replace older closed-
       | source software used to produce these timetables:
       | 
       | - Netzgrafik-Editor:
       | https://github.com/OpenRailAssociation/netzgrafik-editor-fro...
       | 
       | - OSRD: https://osrd.fr/en/
       | 
       | (Disclaimer: I'm working on OSRD.)
        
       | jsdalton wrote:
       | I simply don't agree with the conclusion though I appreciate the
       | approach to thinking about products.
       | 
       | I recently chose to take the train vs driving and the factors
       | behind that decision were:
       | 
       | * Time, yes. Train was approximately the same but an actually a
       | bit slower.
       | 
       | * Cost. Train was slightly cheaper when looking at the true cost
       | of driving. Also significantly cheaper than flying.
       | 
       | * Experience. This is entirely overlooked in the timetable
       | centric approach. Train is simply the most pleasant way to travel
       | long distances (maybe ferry is competitive there). I was able to
       | move around and get work done and enjoy the view. If the train
       | company had swapped my train for a bus I would NOT have been a
       | satisfied customer.
       | 
       | * City center to city center (vs airport to airport). Had the
       | train company said "we swapped the arrival location to the
       | airport but technically we still got you to the city" I would NOT
       | have been a happy customer.
       | 
       | The "trains as timetables" hypothesis would imply that the train
       | could meet my needs via something other than rail travel and
       | would definitely lose me as a customer.
       | 
       | On the other hand, improvements such as better wifi service (it
       | was terrible and not sure why cell service is also poor on a
       | train) or a route that was more scenic but did not impact my
       | arrival time significantly would positively affect my likelihood
       | of choosing train.
       | 
       | So the better lesson is know your customer needs and know their
       | specific jobs to be done and center your hypothesis around this.
        
       | NoNameHaveI wrote:
       | "The product of the railways is the successful arrival of
       | passengers at their chosen destination." Clearly, this was not
       | written in the USA. With a few exceptions (NE corridor, Wolverine
       | route), Amtrak is forced to share rails with host freight (goods)
       | railroads who could give a hoot about the expedient delivery of
       | passengers. The Big 4 (BNSF, UP, CSX, NS) would rather just let
       | their freight have priority and pay a minimal fine. Sadly, this
       | will continue to be the case where Amtrak does not have their own
       | right of way (NE Corridor, Wolverine).
        
       | nitwit005 wrote:
       | I can make some guesses as to where the author lives, purely from
       | their confidence that trains will keep to their schedule.
       | 
       | People will still show up for trains that fail to meet their
       | schedules. They just have to have a high enough frequency that
       | you aren't sitting there for hours, or for there to simply be no
       | other option.
        
       | ekjhgkejhgk wrote:
       | Is anyone else getting bored with these "insights" which are
       | flippant to the point of being rdiculous? Many things are
       | necessary to have a "product", not just a timetable. Anyone can
       | scribble a time table.
       | 
       | I swear this is an industry. "I'm so insightful, don't forget to
       | like and subscribe"
        
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