[HN Gopher] Cybersecurity training programs don't prevent phishi...
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       Cybersecurity training programs don't prevent phishing scams
        
       Author : divbzero
       Score  : 63 points
       Date   : 2025-10-09 16:03 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (today.ucsd.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (today.ucsd.edu)
        
       | httpsoverdns wrote:
       | The part about sharing among other employees when an internal
       | phishing test is active is intriguing to me. In my organization,
       | when someone gets a phishing lure - they tell everyone around
       | them to watch out for it. I wonder how this impacts success
       | rates.
        
       | everdrive wrote:
       | Phishing has a few basic conceptual problems which no one seems
       | to want to address:                 - You don't need to really be
       | "fooled" by phishing. Not in the real sense. You just need to be
       | tired one morning and click without looking. Even if you know how
       | to check for phishing, you might need to click on content from
       | 10s to 100s of emails per day. Scale this out to 1 year, and even
       | the most educated among us can fail due to an honest mistake
       | which we otherwise could have prevented.            - Part of the
       | problem is just that a normal workflow is: receive email -->
       | click on URL --> enter credentials into 3rd party website. ie,
       | this is intentional and valid behavior for most white collar
       | workers on a daily basis. This behavioral pattern is why phishing
       | works, and in reality, email should not be a vector for this
       | path. Until companies and technologies stop assuming this makes
       | sense, phishing will continue to be successful.
        
         | nemomarx wrote:
         | The fact that your employer might direct you to a URL that
         | doesn't look like their normal domain (or through some kinda
         | link shortener so you can't see it without clicking) for
         | legitimate reasons basically undoes all security yeah. Why
         | can't security teams focus on correcting those parts?
        
           | whydoyoucare wrote:
           | The normal workflow is so ingrained in our company culture,
           | that I received an email from our IT team about not clicking
           | on embedded links, and that email had a embedded link to
           | "learn more". ;-)
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | Maybe that was a test.
        
               | whydoyoucare wrote:
               | I thought so too, but no, it wasn't.
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | These both seem like arguments for phishing-resistant auth
         | methods to me (like passkeys).
        
         | bee_rider wrote:
         | I'm somewhat surprised that enterprise email solutions still
         | allow links... like, at all, in general.
         | 
         | The servers should scan emails for links and not allow them. If
         | a link somehow slips through, the client should not render it
         | as something you can click on and follow.
         | 
         | On work machines where everything is managed by IT, there
         | shouldn't be any need to send links around anyway. If anyone
         | thinks they need to send a link around as an ongoing process,
         | then that's the sign that the process still needs to be
         | designed.
        
           | everdrive wrote:
           | >I'm somewhat surprised that enterprise email solutions still
           | allow links... like, at all, in general.
           | 
           | Completely agreed, and I think it's telling that so few email
           | clients or webmail services actually allow you to always
           | render as plain text.
        
           | misterprime wrote:
           | This sounds quite short sighted to me. You can't imagine
           | needing links being sent in everyday workflow at the office,
           | yet I can't imagine not using links in emails.
           | 
           | How would people interact with vendors and salespeople that
           | send links to product specs, troubleshooting articles, etc?
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | If it is a vendor you are buying hardware from, they could
             | send a part number, for example. The workflow should be go
             | to their site, and search it up.
             | 
             | I don't think it is short sited. Actually, I think if it
             | has a flaw it is the opposite one. Workflows that involve
             | mailing around links are convenient for quick little in-
             | the-moment thrown together actions. It's liberating. I've
             | done it too, sure. But, in the long run everything should
             | be integrated somehow or another and sending links should
             | not be necessary. One might say it is ridiculous to expect
             | every process to reach that end state. Possibly true, but
             | it is a good goal...
        
           | snowwrestler wrote:
           | Many corporations do have systems that click every link in
           | inbound emails to check them, I assume against huge lists or
           | heuristics of suspicious domains. Not to different from
           | "endpoint security" solutions that check every link you click
           | in a browser.
        
         | billy99k wrote:
         | I don't click on any urls from email. This should be the
         | standard.
        
         | jasode wrote:
         | _> - Part of the problem is just that a normal workflow is:
         | receive email -- > click on URL --> enter credentials into 3rd
         | party website. ie, this is intentional and valid behavior for
         | most white collar workers on a daily basis. _
         | 
         | Here's a crazy history of that happening...
         | 
         | I had a friend who was an employee of a Fortune 100
         | corporation. _Part of employee training was not to click on
         | links in emails._ In the 1990s and the rise of the internet,
         | they had an internal security  "red team" periodically send a
         | fake phishing emails to employees. _If the employee mistakenly
         | clicked on a link in that email, the red team would send a
         | notice to the employee 's manager._ It worked well because
         | employees would not want to be embarrassed by a manager having
         | to review the security policy with them to get their access
         | back.
         | 
         | When she retired, all that training became useless and she was
         | phished by a fake AT&T email. Why? _Because with the rise of
         | smartphones, every _legitimate_ company started sending emails
         | that had useful tappable links._ With the touchscreen, you can
         | 't hover your finger over the link to see what the underlying
         | url is. People just normalize pressing on links in
         | transactional emails as a convenient thing to do. E.g. Amazon
         | sends an email with a link to the order status. A legit bank
         | will send an email with a link for _" Please review your
         | security setting."_
         | 
         | Smartphones reversed 15 years of not clicking on email links.
        
           | at-fates-hands wrote:
           | The first company I worked for as a developer was like this,
           | except worse.
           | 
           | We got hit with some Christmas virus. One of the devs was
           | talking about how he had mistakenly clicked on the link, but
           | nothing happened. We were at lunch and suddenly were all
           | looking at each other like, "Dave, this isn't good!" told him
           | to call support because we had all seen the emails from
           | security to not click on any links in emails because so many
           | of these were making the rounds.
           | 
           | They took his laptop, reimaged it and gave back to him. The
           | funny part was the Outlook team disabled any links in any
           | emails he got from then on. Not sure how they did it, but if
           | you wanted to send him a link, you had to send it to his
           | personal email or over one of his social media accounts. Any
           | time he got a link, if it was for business, he would have to
           | call support, open a ticket and then an hour later, they
           | would send him the link to open.
           | 
           | It drove the guys nuts. He asked repeatedly to have them
           | enable the links, but they basically told him once you were
           | on the list, it was for good. He quit after four months and
           | said one of the most infuriating things was security never
           | allowing him to get off of the "naughty" list.
        
             | Etheryte wrote:
             | That is both diabolical and hilarious, it must be
             | absolutely maddening. No wonder he quit.
        
         | chasil wrote:
         | Exchange ought to have the capability of rewriting the links'
         | hrefs to a "link gateway" where a sandboxed renderer presents
         | the outside page, maybe running over rdp and purged after the
         | end of every session.
         | 
         | The local Blink (or WebKit) renderer should be for internal or
         | white listed sites only.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | There are vendor solutions that do just this, converting all
           | links to some kind of proxy service.
        
           | mr_mitm wrote:
           | And then what? The end goal of phishing is either that the
           | victim enters credentials or downloads a malicious file.
           | Neither of which would be prevented by your scheme (even anti
           | virus products are imperfect). Phishing with the goal of
           | exploiting a zero day in the browser are exceedingly rare.
        
         | thewebguyd wrote:
         | Re: the receive email -> click URL -> enter credentials.
         | 
         | We need SSO to stop being gated behind enterprise tiers. SSO
         | tax is real, and can help solve this problem. I've moaned about
         | this before as the leader of an IT team for a medium-sized
         | company reliant on a lot of SaaS.
         | 
         | Enterprise plans are too much (both in terms of cost and
         | features) for us, but we are smart enough to have security
         | requirements and one of those is SSO & SCIM. Very few SaaS
         | offers that on anything but the most expensive "call for quote"
         | tiers. That's a huge problem.
         | 
         | That whole email invite->click link->enter credentials workflow
         | is gone with proper SCIM provisioning and SSO. It's the bare
         | minimum a SaaS product should offer and should be on the lowest
         | available tier.
         | 
         | The other problem are services like DocuSign, which offer free
         | trials that are abused to send out fake documents. User gets a
         | legitimate email from DocuSign's domain, clicks on it, opens up
         | a real document in the real DocuSign site, but the doc has a
         | link to the phishing site.
         | 
         | All DocuSign needs to do is require a CC for the trial or
         | contacting sales for a trial, problem solved. But they don't,
         | so as far as I'm concerned they are complicit in enabling
         | phishing.
        
           | Marsymars wrote:
           | Unfortunately, SSO often gets half-assed as a compliance
           | exercise, and now you have to enter your SSO
           | username/password and your MFA token in random places a dozen
           | times per day.
        
             | doubled112 wrote:
             | We actually force reauthentication on some services tied to
             | our SSO. Just authenticated to the main page? Screw you,
             | enter your credentials some more.
             | 
             | It's more secure this way.
        
       | noncoml wrote:
       | You can tell if an email is from a training program just by
       | looking at the email headers. I have a filter in outlook and
       | those emails don't even hit my inbox.
        
         | vkou wrote:
         | It would behoove you to also check if the evil bit is set on
         | all incoming packets.
         | 
         | https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3514
        
           | noncoml wrote:
           | You are being sarcastic and imply I don't know what I am
           | talking about without even asking for details, which is not
           | appreciated.
           | 
           | In my previous company they literally had an X-PHISHING-ID
           | header.
           | 
           | In my current company the phishing emails don't have a single
           | Received header.
        
       | nerdjon wrote:
       | I have lost count of how many jobs train me specifically to look
       | at the URL's in emails by hovering over them to confirm that it
       | is legitimate.
       | 
       | And then put fucking mimecast infront of everything so I legit
       | can't do what they are training me to do...
       | 
       | So yeah, the training is worthless and just there to tick a box.
        
       | olyjohn wrote:
       | I had an exec at a tech company once send out an email with the
       | subject line "Important." All there was, was an attached .docx
       | file, and a sentence saying to read it immediately. This guy
       | should have been fired for this level of incompetence. No, it
       | wasn't a phishing test.
       | 
       | Then Microsoft sends out e-mail advertisements with fucking QR
       | codes in them to everybody to get people to install software
       | without IT department's knowledge. So you not only can't see the
       | link, you can't even de-obfuscate it by hovering over it.
       | 
       | There's a really easy fix for this. It's so fucking easy it hurts
       | my brain.
       | 
       | Disable HTML e-mails. Disable hyperlinks. Feel free to send URLs,
       | but make people copy and paste the link. This way they have to at
       | least select the link. When they get a 6000 character link and
       | can't copy paste it? That's good! Because they have no idea what
       | the link actually is.
       | 
       | Nobody will do it, and I don't get why not. Do you really need to
       | market to your internal employees so badly with images and links?
       | That's what a portal is for. Post updates on your portal and stop
       | bombarding my goddamn email box.
        
       | josefritzishere wrote:
       | I received an email this week which read at the top in red text
       | "THIS IS NOT A PHISHING EMAIL." I thought...isn't that exactly
       | what a phishing email would say?
        
         | freehorse wrote:
         | Was it?
        
       | Calamitous wrote:
       | The only anti-phishing program I've ever seen that was even a
       | little effective was at one company I worked at, where there was
       | an ongoing phishing test.
       | 
       | Users were randomly selected to get the test, and each phish was
       | hand-crafted to trick people specifically at our company (but
       | using only publicly available information). Anonymized results
       | were posted quarterly, divided by department.
       | 
       | I only got fooled once, but man, it felt so bad to see
       | Engineering show up on the dashboard with one hit that quarter.
       | 
       | (Sales was usually at the top of the list, which makes sense,
       | since they interface with a lot of folks outside the org)
        
         | bee_rider wrote:
         | Although, why limit it to publicly available information?
         | Security is an onion. If somebody gets access to internal
         | documentation, HR lists, etc, the organization should still be
         | resistant to their phishes.
        
           | thewebguyd wrote:
           | > If somebody gets access to internal documentation, HR
           | lists, etc,
           | 
           | It's hard to be resistant to phishing at that point and you
           | have bigger problems.
           | 
           | What if Susan in HR falls victim to token theft (let's say
           | conditional access/MDM policies don't catch it or aren't
           | configured, which many businesses don't bother with). Her
           | email account is now pwned, and the company gets an email
           | from her, it passes all verification checks because it's
           | actually from her account.
           | 
           | It's still phishing, but the users have no way to know that.
           | They don't know Susan just got compromised and the email they
           | got from her isn't real. If this is a human attacker and not
           | just bots, they can really target the attack based on the
           | info in her inbox/past emails and anything else she has
           | access to.
           | 
           | So there's no way for the organization to be resistant at
           | that point until IT/security can see thea account compromise
           | and stop it. Ideally, it's real-time and there's an SOC ready
           | to respond. In practice, most companies don't invest that
           | much into security, or they are too small and don't have the
           | budget for a huge security operation like that.
           | 
           | It's a really hard problem to solve
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | HR shouldn't be sending links anyway. They should send
             | instructions: go to the portal (on your corporate
             | controlled laptop, so this could be your new tab page)
             | click on the paystubs link, blah blah.
             | 
             | Somebody in every big company is compromised already.
        
             | themafia wrote:
             | We got hit in a similar way. They didn't use HR's account
             | to email but they grabbed the mobile phone numbers of
             | everyone in the directory. They then started a text message
             | campaign, pretending to be our CEO, demanding that
             | employees go to Target and buy gift cards on behalf of a
             | client.
             | 
             | One person actually did fall for it but decided to
             | physically bring the cards to the CEOs office. Thankfully
             | that exposed the attack and effectively halted any damage
             | done.
             | 
             | These criminals are relatively clever.
        
               | spogbiper wrote:
               | i've noticed the gift card stands at Target and other
               | stores around here now have a sign stating "If you
               | received a text from your boss telling you to buy gift
               | cards, you are being scammed" or similar
        
           | serial_dev wrote:
           | I'm assuming it's the "easy" mode and they still have many
           | successful phishing attempts, so it didn't make sense to go
           | to the next level if the company still fails in easy level.
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | These are exactly the kind of campaigns that studies show not
         | to be effective (or even paradoxically ineffective).
         | "Effective" doesn't mean "manages to successfully phish"
         | (you'll always eventually be successful); it means reducing the
         | likelihood that concerted attacks will be successful.
         | 
         | The actual response to phishing is to use authentication
         | mechanisms that resist phishing.
        
       | whydoyoucare wrote:
       | I always suspected technical tools were more effective (time,
       | effort, money) than the training programs. However, only company-
       | wide training programs provide visibility to the CISO, so they
       | tend to be popular even if ineffective.
       | 
       | Because you cannot fix humans, technology is the most effective
       | approach.
        
       | cosmicgadget wrote:
       | > After sending 10 different types of phishing emails over the
       | course of eight months, the researchers found that embedded
       | phishing training only reduced the likelihood of clicking on a
       | phishing link by 2%.
       | 
       | Company: Stop clicking on links to third party sites.
       | 
       | Also Company: All of IT, HR, benefits, cloud storage, customer
       | management, and employee portal is moving to its own third party
       | platform!
        
         | chrisweekly wrote:
         | Yeah. Even worse(?) is banks like Citizens sending customers
         | emails and text messages with links to shady-seeming domain
         | names. No wonder so many people fall for phishing attacks.
        
         | Wowfunhappy wrote:
         | Why is clicking the link a failure? I thought this was the
         | point of keeping my browser up to date, so I can trust the
         | sandbox!
         | 
         | A couple of times, I got emails that seemed suspicious, but I
         | figured I would click the link to investigate further. I was on
         | high alert and would not have entered login credentials or
         | opened an executable or anything like that, I just wanted to
         | check it out and see.
         | 
         | Of course, it was a phishing audit and I failed. WTF?
        
           | gotodengo wrote:
           | Phishers are working completely blind, thus any amount of
           | info going back to the phishers is a benefit to them.
           | 
           | Just getting server logs from an opened link lets them know
           | their messages aren't being quarantined and their server is
           | reachable through the target's firewall.
           | 
           | The user agent and how the links are accessed give info about
           | who is opening them (A few every couple minutes == all good,
           | 10 links sent to 10 different employees all opened within
           | seconds with a non-standard user agent == you're being
           | investigated and should burn the domain)
           | 
           | It's been a few years since I've done phishing engagements so
           | details may vary with how things are done today. But the goal
           | is to limit any information going to the bad guys. Let them
           | think their messages are being blocked until they go
           | elsewhere.
           | 
           | *edit: That being said, phishing at least one person at a
           | large company is not particularly hard. There's too many
           | companies using domains indistinguishable from shady links
           | for one thing. Limiting engagement is good, but companies
           | also need to be prepared for the eventuality that somebody
           | will get fooled.
        
         | giantg2 wrote:
         | "Company: Stop clicking on links to third party sites.
         | 
         | Also Company: All of IT, HR, benefits, cloud storage, customer
         | management, and employee portal is moving to its own third
         | party platform!"
         | 
         | Smart companies validate and tag those third party emails as
         | "partner" or similar. That way the users are only using the
         | extra scrutiny on the non-partner external emails.
        
           | clickety_clack wrote:
           | What's to stop a phishing email putting a "verified by IT
           | anti-phishing software" line at the top of the email? People
           | don't pay attention to special verification flags when they
           | are there, so they don't see them when they're missing.
        
             | giantg2 wrote:
             | You have ingress filters that strip the subject tag out of
             | anything and only add it back if it is verified. It's
             | really not that hard and the training is supposed to train
             | people. Nothing is perfect, nor does it need to be with
             | defense in depth.
        
           | cosmicgadget wrote:
           | Yes although this runs the risk of what you commonly see at
           | daycares and schools.
           | 
           | There'll be a sign that says "Peanut free zone" and everyone
           | will read it and respect it.
           | 
           | Then there'll be a sign that says "Please be sure to pick
           | your kid up by x o'clock." And everyone will read it and
           | respect it and silently stop looking at it cause they know.
           | 
           | And then there will be a sign that says "Please keep your
           | child at home if you suspect they might be sick." And
           | everyone will read it and be a little offended because why
           | would they do that knowingly?
           | 
           | After a while the entrance will be plastered with notices and
           | warnings that get put up and not taken down. And nobody reads
           | them because they _probably_ already know and it 's not worth
           | spending 20 minutes reading the entire wall.
           | 
           | I get the external/partner emails. And a notice that outlook
           | removed extra line breaks from the message (whew). And a
           | notice that if there are problems reading the email I can
           | view it in a web browser. And a helpful suggestion that
           | Copilot can give me the tldr.
           | 
           | Outlook is beginning to feel like daycare.
        
         | AlotOfReading wrote:
         | I just received an email from one of our financial partners
         | advertising a free iPad if you click on a image link to another
         | domain and do a survey.
         | 
         | It's an impressive level of DGAF.
        
       | foxglacier wrote:
       | Seems like they counted it as a failure if the user just clicked
       | the link in the email. But what are the supposed to do? Never
       | click links in emails? Only click links to some white-list of
       | domains they hold in their head? I would think clicking a link is
       | fine, but entering credentials is not.
       | 
       | It's no surprise people didn't engage with training material _on
       | the pretend phishing site_!! At that stage, they 're told it was
       | a trap and they shouldn't even be there so of course they're
       | going to get out asap.
        
         | Msurrow wrote:
         | Clicking a link can be more than enough to "get hacked"; you
         | don't always need to enter credentials. So yes, unfortunately
         | the correct answer is either to have the whitelist of domains
         | in your head (BUT this is also very risky due to homograph
         | attacks [1]), or simply never click links in mails.
         | 
         | The secure thing to do is: Read mail that tells you to click
         | link to whatever online tool you work with. Then instead of
         | clicking link in mail you open a browser and manually visit the
         | site the link was pointing to. If there is a message,
         | notification, or something else that the emails wants you to
         | look at, then it will also be there when you login "directly".
         | 
         | 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack
        
           | floxy wrote:
           | >homograph attacks
           | 
           | Is there a good way (right now) to defend against this? I'm
           | willing to live with a browser that only accepts ASCII in the
           | address bar, and disables Unicode in email (replaced with ?)
        
       | ttGpN5Nde3pK wrote:
       | Most companies would have a much easier time with phishing if
       | they quit sending official correspondence that mimics phishing.
       | Sure, phishing is always evolving to look legitimate, but
       | C[?]l[?]i[?]c[?]k[?] h[?]e[?]r[?]e[?]![?] in literally every
       | official email when whatever it is you need to do _should_ be
       | reachable via known links. All the "click here" 's and "please
       | see attached" tricks would quit working if it wasn't normal.
        
         | thewebguyd wrote:
         | I'm of the opinion that most (not all) email phishing can be
         | solved if we all just collectively admitted that HTML email was
         | a mistake, and go back to text based only and enforce that
         | everywhere.
         | 
         | No more logos, no more masked links (you have to acutally copy
         | and paste the text, giving you a chance to review the URL), no
         | more QR code phishing, no more realistic looking but fake
         | DocuSigns. Get rid of attachments while we are at it, there are
         | other, better ways to share files within an office environment
         | (because ultimately, if we enforce text only, then all phishing
         | would then arrive via attachment in the form of a PDF or rich
         | word doc with the fake logos and a clickable link).
        
           | ttGpN5Nde3pK wrote:
           | I already disable images, but sign me up for text only email!
        
           | baobun wrote:
           | Giving up HTML emails? Prepostorous. Users won't accept it
           | now that they are this used to it. Retraining that is
           | unrealistic. Someone of the metrics!
           | 
           | The only solution (which will solve the problem, as it is
           | marketed as phising-resistant) is to remove passwords
           | entirely and force everyone to use passkeys.
           | 
           | /s
        
       | technion wrote:
       | Ive argued for a while: the value of these programs is to solve
       | the management problem.
       | 
       | When you propose a security solution, someone is going to say "oh
       | my users are too smart to be phished, don't worry about this".
       | Ive had this argument for rolling out mfa at nearly every company
       | ive worked with.
       | 
       | Phishing tests give you the "well actually" data.
        
       | immibis wrote:
       | It's not about preventing the phishing, it's about preventing the
       | liability from the phishing. If someone can show you didn't
       | follow cybersecurity training best practices, you may be liable
       | for any failure of cybersecurity. Best way to prevent that is to
       | follow the best practices, even if they don't work. A lot of
       | things in the corporate world work this way.
        
         | fooey wrote:
         | yep, it's all CYA checkbox busywork to send to insurance when
         | something happens
        
         | Duanemclemore wrote:
         | This was my comment as well. It doesn't mean they're
         | -necessarily- going to throw the employee under the bus. But it
         | does get them off the hook.
        
       | lapcat wrote:
       | > Overall, 75% of users engaged with the embedded training
       | materials for a minute or less. One-third immediately closed the
       | embedded training page without engaging with the material at all.
       | 
       | To call this "training" is highly misleading.
       | 
       | It's no surprise that the mere existence of training materials
       | does not help if nobody reads and studies the training materials.
       | 
       | They should preface the training materials with "$100,000 USD
       | will be transferred to your bank account if you read this and
       | successfully answer the questions at the end."
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Recent and related:
       | 
       |  _Kurt Got Got_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45520615 -
       | Oct 2025 (216 comments)
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | Just rubbing it in, eh?
        
       | cycomanic wrote:
       | The reason might be that the training programs are just
       | ridiculously bad. I clicked on a pretend phishing link out of
       | interest to see what happens. I was treated to a lecture of how
       | clicking on links in emails is always bad and to never do it.
       | 
       | That advise would be fine (albeit maybe extreme) if it wasn't the
       | case that for the last year I have been spammed by emails from
       | said training company telling me to click on the included link to
       | complete the next cybersecurity course. Even worse they use some
       | nondescriptive weirdly named domain not their own to host the
       | training courses. So if anything the courses are training people
       | to click on phishing emails.
        
         | themafia wrote:
         | I recently got reported for clicking a phishing link three
         | times. Looking at the audit log all three of these clicks
         | supposedly happened within seconds of each other.
         | 
         | My suspicion is the training company realized no one was
         | falling for the obvious bait anymore and they needed to gin up
         | the numbers to keep the company convinced that paying for their
         | services was worthwhile.
         | 
         | Meanwhile all corporate teams use the same VLAN and DHCP
         | Address Pool. There is zero separation of departments on the
         | network. A lot of companies get this precise situation
         | backwards as we have.
        
           | lesuorac wrote:
           | I wonder if it's your email client or something.
           | 
           | IIUC, some of them will pre-load a page by opening it for
           | you.
        
         | lozenge wrote:
         | Your company should get a better company, mine either asks to
         | download and run a file or presents a login form. I'm not sure
         | what they do after that because I've never failed that badly...
        
       | sunrunner wrote:
       | "Cybersecurity Training Programs Don't Prevent Employees from
       | Falling for Phishing Scams - Click Here to Find Out How to Really
       | Protect Your Employees"
        
       | whydoyoucare wrote:
       | A very straightforward technical solution is to convert all html
       | emails to plain text (ASCII). Mutt users rarely get phished. :-)
        
       | agiacalone wrote:
       | I think the conclusion of this article is slightly flawed. The
       | issue isn't with engagement with the training (although, the
       | typical corporate training material is pretty bad), rather how we
       | go about teaching cybersecurity.
       | 
       | I take a page from Jayson E. Street's DefCon talk from a few
       | years ago with my students: promote "Security Awareness", not
       | Security Training. Get people to think about _what_ is being
       | asked of them and the consequences of said actions. People tend
       | to take  "Security Training" as "I need to remember A, B, C,
       | etc." Humans are bad at this sort of thing, typically.
       | 
       | I admit that "Security Awareness" isn't all that easy, but
       | clearly our current approaches leave much to be desired.
        
       | yabones wrote:
       | It's a culture problem. The _real_ solution is to teach people to
       | trust their security department.
       | 
       | If there's trust and respect, they'll reach out without fear of
       | reprisal and inform right away when there's a problem.
       | 
       | If there's a culture of punishment, they'll fear the IT gestapo
       | and try to cover up mistakes that could cost them their job.
       | 
       | It really is that simple.
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | No, it's not. Phishing isn't a social problem, it's a
         | technological problem. Whether or not you can intercept my
         | credentials shouldn't be a question of how much I trust my IT
         | department or how well I'm trained; the credentials simply
         | shouldn't allow that to happen. That's the entire reason U2F
         | was invented, and then WebAuthn and FIDO2.
        
       | impure wrote:
       | I looked at the paper. How it's being reported is highly
       | misleading. There were 4 different active training groups. One of
       | the groups benefitted from the training and one of the groups
       | actually got worse. So as a whole phishing training only has a 2%
       | boost. However the message is not that phishing training is
       | useless, only that if applied incorrectly it is useless.
        
       | Duanemclemore wrote:
       | The point of trainings is only secondarily to stop these things
       | from happening. The goal is for the institution to avoid
       | liability by transfer responsibility for their having happened to
       | others.
        
       | Ekaros wrote:
       | I love also safe link protections. You actually try to check the
       | link, but instead it is mangled beyond recognition. Then you try
       | to squint and figure out how it is encoded... And just give up...
        
         | scandox wrote:
         | Wait till it's been rewritten by multiple competing safe link
         | services many of which are blissfully unaware of each other...
        
       | SunlitCat wrote:
       | There's something else I notice in my daily work with all kinds
       | of different people, which I like to call "tech avoidance."
       | 
       | For example, this week I helped someone set up an account on an
       | online library platform we use. I had to tell them multiple times
       | not to tap the buttons in the email, website, or app right away,
       | but to read them first. They were clearly nervous, and you could
       | tell they just wanted to finish as quickly as possible and get
       | out of "that very techie situation" to simply use the apps.
       | 
       | I mean, yeah, I get it. Technology isn't for everyone. But the
       | (sad) fact is that we live in a world largely dominated by it.
       | And although it has created many problems we now need to solve
       | with even more technology, it also helps us solve many of the
       | problems we had before.
       | 
       | My hope is that AI will evolve to the point where it can become a
       | kind of companion for those people, guiding them through
       | situations involving technology that they find difficult or
       | intimidating.
        
       | catlikesshrimp wrote:
       | Companies seriously concerned about security must include a
       | standard disclaimer which reads "Never click on neither links nor
       | pictures in emails" in every email, before the actual plaintext
       | message.
       | 
       | This doesn't concern amazon, google, or banks, probably
       | 
       | So many "offers" and "promotions" to throw around with convenient
       | links
       | 
       | Edit: "Go to our website and find more information under your
       | account about lorem ipsum... "
        
       | mr_mitm wrote:
       | I work in security and have even performed phishing simulations.
       | Want to know how to get me to click on your link? Send me a
       | newsletter mail with an unsubscribe link. I will click 100% of
       | the time no matter how weird the domain looks. (I won't enter
       | credentials or download any files though.)
       | 
       | Corporate recently told me I'm specifically not allowed to
       | unsubscribe from newsletters (probably for this reason), so now I
       | have set up mutt to open links in a containerized browser, but
       | that's as far as I'll go.
        
         | MountDoom wrote:
         | The idea of not clicking on links is frankly preposterous. The
         | company pays you to click on links in emails; it's the nature
         | of your job! And it's also core to how we use the internet in
         | our spare time.
        
         | CyberHoot-Craig wrote:
         | One of the reasons IT doesn't want you clicking on Unsubscribe
         | links is they have been turned into malicious Session Token
         | stealing attacks. Hackers subscribe an victim to dozens of
         | newsletters, many of which do not follow netiquette of sending
         | a confirmation email for you to confirm your desire to receive
         | the newsletter, or worse, the confirmation email contains a
         | second Session Token stealing attach which you are even more
         | likely to click on because you DID NOT subscribe to begin with
         | and your hackles are up... so you click and BOOM, Business
         | Email Compromise! It's happened on a couple of incidents I've
         | been a part of earlier this year and led to 1000's of dollars
         | in Wire Transfer losses! Banks have to add MFA to all Wire
         | Transfers (but don't - Credit Union's are you listening
         | here!!!). So, there's good reasons not to trust unsubscribe
         | links. If you didn't subscribe, and there's no clear
         | confirmation email from the domain in question, report the
         | newsletter as SPAM and block.
         | 
         | Notice: I'm a virtual CISO at CyberHoot (and co-founder here)
         | providing security program development and Incident Response
         | services.
        
       | freeopinion wrote:
       | Corporate practices are the primary form of cybersecurity
       | training. I have seen too many corporations (including critical
       | infrastructure corps) that force employees to login to foreign
       | domains with corporate credentials. This includes email services,
       | two factor authentication, team chat, LMS, dashboards, surveys,
       | web meetings, code forges, ticket tracking, VPN, etc.
       | 
       | Corporations outsource almost every single tool used by their
       | employees and train them to cough up their corporate credentials
       | no matter what url the browser identifies. In essence, they phish
       | their employees 100 times a day. Then they force employees to sit
       | through training twice a year to identify phishing attacks. Every
       | legitimate training will create cognitive dissonance with
       | employees' every day work experiences.
        
       | ottah wrote:
       | The point of these trainings is to satisfy compliance
       | requirements and to deflect responsibility when someone
       | inevitably fucks up. All HR mandated training courses are to
       | protect the company, by allowing them to blame the employee when
       | something goes wrong. It's not our fault, we told them not to,
       | here's the proof.
        
       | freeopinion wrote:
       | My employer gives my credentials to LinkedIn, Github, Microsoft,
       | Google, Slack, Amazon, AuthIAM, SuperSecure, TrustMe, Cisco,
       | Oracle, SAP, Peoplesoft, Shopify, Salesforce, and a dozen others.
       | Then they gripe because my coworker gave their credentials to
       | login.ad.azure.microsft.com.
        
       | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
       | It's crazy that any bad actor in the world can put a clickable
       | link in front of you with email.
        
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