[HN Gopher] Apps SDK
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Apps SDK
        
       Author : alvis
       Score  : 201 points
       Date   : 2025-10-06 18:27 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (developers.openai.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (developers.openai.com)
        
       | compacct27 wrote:
       | "Build our platform for us!"
        
       | naiv wrote:
       | Remember "GPTs" and the thing before it which I don't even
       | remember now. I think this will go the same route .. to nowhere
        
         | elpakal wrote:
         | Are they still expecting us to get paid based on "revenue
         | sharing"?
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | The GPT App Store (which is technically now obsolete with this
         | SDK) was funny.
        
       | jasonsb wrote:
       | They promised AGI and delivered SDKs. I think I'm gonna skip this
       | one..
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | Hey don't sell them short, they also delivered a TikTok clone
         | with vertically integrated slop generation. It's the 5D Chess
         | path to AGI, they just need to rot the average human brain
         | until the bar for super-human intelligence is reduced to an
         | attainable level.
        
           | Narciss wrote:
           | This was funny
        
       | alvis wrote:
       | So it's take 2 for Open AI's App Store moment. But this time
       | surfing Anthropic's MCP wave. Smart interop.. or just chasing the
       | cool kids?
        
         | apwell23 wrote:
         | mcp was a dud
        
           | consumer451 wrote:
           | What is the superior way for an LLM to interact with your
           | product?
        
             | apwell23 wrote:
             | llm can call my existing apis fine. curious what kind of
             | problems you are running to with your existing apis?
        
       | rushingcreek wrote:
       | I think this is very interesting, but it is reminiscent of what
       | we built with Phind 2 where the answer could include dynamic,
       | pre-built widgets.
       | 
       | The problem with this approach is precisely that these
       | apps/widgets have hard-coded input and output schema. They can
       | work quite well when the user asks something within the widget's
       | capabilities, but the brittleness of this approach starts showing
       | quickly in real-world use. What if you want to use more advanced
       | filters with Zillow? Or perhaps cross-reference with StreetEasy?
       | If those features aren't supported by the widget's hard-coded
       | schema, you're out of luck as a user.
       | 
       | What I think it much more exciting is the ability to completely
       | create generative UI answers on the fly. We'll have more to say
       | on this soon from Phind (I'm the founder).
        
         | chatmasta wrote:
         | Phind is awesome. I often forget to use it until legacy search
         | engines fail to surface what I'm looking for after a dozen
         | searches. Phind usually finds it.
         | 
         | That said, I used it a lot more a year ago. Lately I've been
         | using regular LLMs since they've gotten better at searching.
        
           | rushingcreek wrote:
           | Thanks for the feedback. I think that our main differentiator
           | going forward will be this generative UI on the fly for
           | answering questions as opposed to search alone.
        
             | dleeftink wrote:
             | In a similar boat, but have been increasingly returning to
             | for its quick notebook/charting capabilities. Would be
             | awesome to somehow be able to select between different UI
             | modes offering search, ranking, graphing or else depending
             | on user needs.
        
         | alvis wrote:
         | Given there is already a MCP-UI project, I'm not surprised it
         | can be done. But even that I'm not very convinced that it's the
         | right approach. After all, it's still far too slow for real
         | usage...
        
           | rushingcreek wrote:
           | Totally agree that it's too slow with conventional
           | approaches, which is why we're training custom models for
           | this that we can run fast
        
         | babyshake wrote:
         | I know that AG-UI from copilot kit is in this space. But it
         | hasn't worked well with the MCP model AFAIK
        
         | esafak wrote:
         | The problem is not the limitations of the capabilities per se
         | but their discoverability
         | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discoverability). The user
         | doesn't know what the capabilities are, as they are added and
         | -- infuriatingly -- removed. Google Assistant is a perfect
         | example of this.
         | 
         | Conservational user interfaces are opaque; they lack
         | affordances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance
        
           | rushingcreek wrote:
           | Yep, this is a big problem as well. If the user doesn't know
           | what features will or won't work, they lose confidence
           | overall.
        
           | beefnugs wrote:
           | Thank you for this word. I have felt it my whole life and
           | never learned the exact word.
           | 
           | I immediately knew the last generation of voice assistants
           | was dead garbage when there was no way to know what it could
           | do, they just expected you to try 100 things, until it worked
           | randomly
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | They don't lack affordances, you can do stuff. They lack
           | signifiers, ie it's not easy to discover the stuff you can
           | do.
        
             | esafak wrote:
             | Affordance is not what it can do, it is what it _signals_
             | that it can do. It needs to be perceptible, by the
             | definition I use (Norman 's). I see others go by different
             | definitions that even admit hidden affordances. I do not.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | From _The Design of Everyday Things_ :
               | 
               | > Affordances represent the possibilities in the world
               | for how an agent (a person, animal, or machine) can
               | interact with something. Some affordances are
               | perceivable, others are invisible. Signifiers are
               | signals. Some signifiers are signs, labels, and drawings
               | placed in the world, such as the signs labeled "push,"
               | "pull," or "exit" on doors, or arrows and diagrams
               | indicating what is to be acted upon or in which direction
               | to gesture, or other instructions. Some signifiers are
               | simply the perceived affordances, such as the handle of a
               | door or the physical structure of a switch. Note that
               | some perceived affordances may not be real: they may look
               | like doors or places to push, or an impediment to entry,
               | when in fact they are not.
               | 
               | With Norman's definition, if a conversational interface
               | _can_ perform an action, it _affords_ that action. The
               | fact that you don 't know that it affords that action
               | means there's a lack of a signifier.
               | 
               | As you say, this is a matter of definition, I'm just
               | commenting on Norman's specific definition from the book.
        
         | 9dev wrote:
         | Ah, that's interesting. I'm considering building something
         | similar for our product, and my solution to the schema
         | constraints you mentioned thus far is breaking my widgets into
         | blocks as universal as possible, as to still be useful. All of
         | this is just ideas yet mind you, but my thinking was--maybe I
         | can get the model to pick from a range of composable widgets
         | depending on the task that are interoperable?
         | 
         | For a concrete example, think a search result listing that can
         | be broken down into a single result or a matrix to compare
         | results, as well as a filter section. So you could ask for
         | different facets of your current context, to iterate over a
         | search session and interact with the results. Dunno, I'm still
         | researching.
         | 
         | Have you written somewhere about your experience with Phind in
         | this area?
        
         | irrationalfab wrote:
         | > If those features aren't supported by the widget's hard-coded
         | schema, you're out of luck as a user.
         | 
         | Chat paired to the pre-built and on-demand widgets address this
         | limitation.
         | 
         | For example, in the keynote demo, they showed how the chat
         | interface lets you perform advanced filtering that pulls
         | together information from multiple sources, like filtering only
         | Zillow housers near a dog park.
        
           | JumpCrisscross wrote:
           | > _Chat paired to the pre-built and on-demand widgets address
           | this limitation_
           | 
           | The only place I can see this working is if the LLM is
           | generating a rich UI on the fly. Otherwise, you're arguing
           | that a text-based UX is going to beat flashy, colourful
           | things.
        
           | rushingcreek wrote:
           | Yes, because it seems that Zillow exposes those specific
           | filters as a part of the input schema. As long as it's a part
           | of the schema, then ChatGPT can generate a useful input to
           | the widget. But my point is that is very brittle.
        
       | ttoinou wrote:
       | Does anyone think small players (like an independent developer)
       | will be accepted ? Sounds like it will only for the big whales
        
       | chvid wrote:
       | Discovery, monetization. What is in it for developers?
        
         | spongebobstoes wrote:
         | deploying an app to 700M people?
        
           | artisin wrote:
           | Not only do you get to deploy your app to 700M users; you
           | also get to provide responsive support for every single one
           | of them!
           | 
           | Per the docs: 'Every app comes from a verified developer who
           | stands behind their work and provides responsive support'
           | 
           | That's thinly veiled corporate speak for, Fortune 500 or GTFO
        
           | saberience wrote:
           | That's like saying making a website is like deploying an app
           | for 7B people.
           | 
           | Sure, but deploying a website or app doesn't mean anyone's
           | going to use it, does it?
           | 
           | I could make an iOS app, I could make a website, I could make
           | a ChatGPT app... if no one uses it, it doesn't matter how big
           | the userbase of iOS, the internet, or ChatGPT is...
        
       | benatkin wrote:
       | They're looking like Facebook did with their phone project and
       | later the metaverse - too big for their britches.
        
         | MaxPock wrote:
         | Lmfao..you've reminded me of the phone they made with HTC that
         | had a Facebook button .
        
           | sieep wrote:
           | We've already _sorta_ come full circle with the Meta glasses
           | having a physical button to interact with the Facebook AI
        
       | markab21 wrote:
       | The skepticism is understandable given the trajectory of GPTs and
       | custom instructions, but there's a meaningful technical
       | difference here: the Apps SDK is built on the Model Context
       | Protocol (MCP), which is an open specification rather than a
       | proprietary format.
       | 
       | MCP standardizes how LLM clients connect to external tools--
       | defining wire formats, authentication flows, and metadata
       | schemas. This means apps you build aren't inherently ChatGPT-
       | specific; they're MCP servers that could work with any MCP-
       | compatible client. The protocol is transport-agnostic and self-
       | describing, with official Python and TypeScript SDKs already
       | available.
       | 
       | That said, the "build our platform" criticism isn't entirely off
       | base. While the protocol is open, practical adoption still
       | depends heavily on ChatGPT's distribution and whether other LLM
       | providers actually implement MCP clients. The real test will be
       | whether this becomes a genuine cross-platform standard or just
       | another way to contribute to OpenAI's ecosystem.
       | 
       | The technical primitives (tool discovery, structured content
       | return, embedded UI resources) are solid and address real
       | integration problems. Whether it succeeds likely depends more on
       | ecosystem dynamics than technical merit.
        
       | mhl47 wrote:
       | There was a recent post here about how deeply ingrained the chat
       | interface is in OpenAIs organization. This really doubles down on
       | that, but does anyone really like to interact with so much
       | language instead of visual elements? Also feels horrible that you
       | are supposed to remember a bunch of app names like "zillow" and
       | punch them in the chat. And like an opportunity for them to
       | slowly introduce ads for this apps or "preferential discovery",
       | if you will, as monetization strategy.
       | 
       | Personally I don't hope thats the future.
        
         | p0seidon wrote:
         | Which post was that?
        
           | mhl47 wrote:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44573195 (in the
           | article, search for:"Chat runs really deep")
        
         | agentcoops wrote:
         | Very much agreed. I think the dominance of the chat interface
         | to LLMs has materially impaired the general usefulness of these
         | tools -- the sooner it goes away the better. It's almost
         | impossible to explain to a non-engineer how the illusion of a
         | continuous conversation is crafted through context management
         | and why past moments in a conversation might fall out of
         | memory. My general advice to non-technical friends is to create
         | a new conversation for each prompt so that they can get a more
         | deterministic sense of how to formulate instructions and which
         | are successful.
         | 
         | I was really hoping Apple would make some innovations on the UX
         | side, but they certainly haven't yet.
        
         | baby_souffle wrote:
         | I feel like we're rehashing the debate around whether or not a
         | GUI or terminal is more powerful.
         | 
         | For a large number of tasks that cleanly generalize into a
         | stream of tokens, command line or chat is probably superior.
         | We'll get some affordances like tab auto completion to help
         | remember the name of certain bots or mCP endpoints that can be
         | brought in as needed...
         | 
         | But for anything that involves discovery, graphical interaction
         | feels more intuitive and we'll probably get bespoke interfaces
         | relevant to that particular task at hand with some sort of
         | partially hidden layers to abstract away the token stream?
        
         | drdrey wrote:
         | counterpoint: a lot of people around me just type "zillow" in
         | google to access it, so maybe it's not absurd to refer to it by
         | name in a chat interface
        
       | Handy-Man wrote:
       | This is them trying to build ChatGPT into platform, from which
       | they will take some portion of revenue generated by these
       | apps...hmm where have I seen this before.
        
       | spullara wrote:
       | We have been building MCP servers and this looks very good
       | directionally. Fills a bunch of holes in the protocol and gives
       | meaning to something that were kind of like placeholders. Being
       | able to return UI to the client is fantastic and will make lots
       | of things possible. We have been working on these kinds of things
       | assuming that the clients would improve to meet us.
       | 
       | https://lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?2122
        
       | cefboud wrote:
       | This is an interesting branding exercise. Presenting MCP as
       | 'Apps' makes it sound more accessible, while tools and MCP server
       | sound very technical. Add a demo with Expedia and Spotify and you
       | have an MCP that's end-user ready.
        
         | lossolo wrote:
         | Ye, that's basically an MCP server, that can be used by
         | ChatGPT.
        
       | disiplus wrote:
       | Honestly I see how somebody like kayak.com would build a "app"
       | they work through commission, they don't care from where is the
       | booking coming from. But they will sort the flight tickets based
       | where do they earn the best commission. What's in there for me as
       | a user ?. Also will openai let different providers pay for the
       | top placement when somebody tries to buy ticket on chatgpt ?
        
       | testfrequency wrote:
       | Wow.
       | 
       | "CEO" Fidji Simo must really need something to do.
       | 
       | Maybe I'm cynical about all of this, but it feels like a whole
       | lot of marketing spin for an MCP standard.
        
       | MaxPock wrote:
       | Tencent already has this with WeChat.Good to see it on chatgpt
       | finally
        
       | emilsedgh wrote:
       | I see a lot of negative comments here but to me, it was obvious
       | this is where OAI should land.
       | 
       | They want to be the platform in which you tell what you want, and
       | OAI does it for you. It's gonna connect to your inbox, calendar,
       | payment methods, and you'll just ask it to do something and it
       | will, using those apps.
       | 
       | This means OAI won't need ads. Just rev share.
        
         | nicce wrote:
         | > This means OAI won't need ads.
         | 
         | Ads are defenitely there. Just hidden so deeply in the black
         | box which is generating the useful tips :)
        
           | thebigkick wrote:
           | If you ask it to build a headless frontend web app, it
           | immediately starts generating code with Next.js. I've always
           | wondered how it was trained to default to that choice, given
           | the smorgasbord of web frameworks out there. Next.js is
           | solid, but it's also platform-ware, tightly coupled to
           | commercial interests. I wish there were more bias toward
           | genuinely open-source technologies.
        
             | jerojero wrote:
             | There's probably different ways the LLM converged to it.
             | 
             | One could be for example: from people asking online which
             | tools they should use to build something and being
             | constantly recommended to do it with Next.js
             | 
             | Another could be: how many of the code that was used to
             | train the LLM is done in Next.js
             | 
             | Generally, the answer is probably something along the lines
             | of "next.js is kind of the most popular choice at the time
             | of training".
        
             | b_e_n_t_o_n wrote:
             | To me it feels like the default choice in the industry,
             | perhaps it's not and I'm wrong but if I could have that
             | feeling I can see how the AI can as well.
        
               | nicce wrote:
               | It is a trap. But once you realise that you are already
               | too deeply invested.
        
           | GoatInGrey wrote:
           | Because the AI labs are just hovering up all internet text
           | that they can, I've been seeing more and more marketing
           | pilots that deliberately seed marketing material in thousands
           | of fake, AI-generated blogs and tutorials. The intention here
           | is to get new LLMs to train on these huge numbers of
           | associations between specific use cases and the company's
           | product. All in a way that gets their marketing information
           | into the final weights.
           | 
           | You may have started seeing this when LLMs seem to promote
           | things based entirely on marketing claims and not on real-
           | world functionality.
           | 
           | More or less, SEO spam V2.
        
         | dewitt wrote:
         | > _This means OAI won 't need ads. Just rev share_
         | 
         | If OpenAI thinks there's sweet, sweet revenue in email and
         | calendar apps, just waiting to be shared, their investors are
         | in for a big surprise.
        
         | seydor wrote:
         | A platform requires a user moat or unfair advantage. Having a
         | better quality model is neither
        
           | typpilol wrote:
           | How's having the best model not a most?
        
             | zackangelo wrote:
             | Because it depends on how much better "best" is. If it's
             | only incrementally better than open source models that have
             | other advantages, why would you bother?
             | 
             | OpenAI's moat will only come from the products they built
             | on top. Theoretically their products will be better because
             | they'll be more vertically integrated with the underlying
             | models. It's not unlike Apple's playbook with regard to
             | hardwares and software integration.
        
             | maleldil wrote:
             | Because it changes all the time. A few weeks ago, it was
             | Gemini 2.5 Pro, then Claude Opus 4.1, GPT-5 Thinking, now
             | maybe Claude Sonnet 4.5, etc[1]. Having a good model isn't
             | enough when they're basically interchangeable now. You need
             | something else.
             | 
             | [1] This is an example. Which model was the best when is
             | not important.
        
           | og_kalu wrote:
           | Consumer LLM apps have moat. As it is, ChatGPT (the app)
           | spends most of its compute on Personal Non work messages
           | (approx 1.9B per day vs 716 for Work)[0]. First, from ongoing
           | conversations that users would return to, then to the pushing
           | of specific and past chat memories, these conversations have
           | become increasingly personalized. Suddenly, there is a lot of
           | personal data that you rely on it having, that make the
           | product better. You cannot just plop over to Gemini and
           | replicate this.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w34255/w
           | 342...
        
         | jimmydoe wrote:
         | > This means OAI won't need ads. Just rev share.
         | 
         | They obviously want both. In fact they are already building an
         | ad team.
         | 
         | They have money they have to burn, so it makes sense to throw
         | all the scalable business models in the history, eg app store,
         | algo feed, etc, to the wall and see what stick.
        
       | danjl wrote:
       | If only this somehow resulted in fewer, better apps. <sigh>
        
       | ttoinou wrote:
       | That's a great idea and Im wondering if Telegram can follow this
       | path too, since they're so advanced in mobile UX / UI, constantly
       | updating their app and have some kind of crypto payments support.
        
       | fny wrote:
       | It's remarkable that will inevitably rush to build free apps that
       | only reinforce OpenAI's moat while cannibilizing their own
       | opportunities.
        
         | tantalor wrote:
         | When the iPhone came out, there were like 6 apps, and no app
         | store.
         | 
         | In 2024, iOS App Store generated $1.3T in revenue, 85% of which
         | went to developers.
        
           | hmate9 wrote:
           | That figure sounds way too high
           | 
           | Edit: yes I understand it is correct, but still it _sounds_
           | like an insane amount
        
             | moralestapia wrote:
             | It's true, though.
             | 
             | It is now evident why Flash was murdered.
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | Because it was buggy, known for security holes and the
               | single biggest source of application crashes in all
               | software in the late 90's through early 00's.
        
               | moralestapia wrote:
               | We get it, you drank the kool-aid.
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | Drank the kool-aid?!? I worked in the eLearning space, I
               | was a prominent user and developer for Flash/Flex
               | content... there was some interesting tooling for sure, I
               | also completely disabled it on my home computers as a
               | result of working with it.
               | 
               | I had a lot of hopes after the Adobe buyout that Flash
               | would morph into something based around ActionScript
               | (ES4) and SVG. That didn't happen. MS's Silverlight/XAML
               | was close, but I wasn't going to even consider it without
               | several cross-platform version releases.
        
               | moralestapia wrote:
               | >I was a prominent user and developer for Flash/Flex
               | content
               | 
               | I was as well. It wasn't as bad as people describe it. It
               | was an amazing platform, HTML5 just recently caught up.
               | 
               | In retrospective, Adobe should have open sourced it.
               | 
               | >MS's Silverlight/XAML was close
               | 
               | Hahahahahha, yeah sure! That tells me everything I need
               | to know.
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | I agree it should have been open-sourced (at least the
               | player portion)...
               | 
               | As for Silverlight, I mean the technology itself was
               | closer to where I wanted to see Flash go. I'm not sure
               | why you're laughing at that.
               | 
               | edit: as for not being as bad as people describe it...
               | you could literally read any file on the filesystem...
               | that's a pretty bad "sandbox" ... It was fixed later, but
               | there were different holes along the way, multiple times.
        
               | jjtheblunt wrote:
               | you missed the "it drained battery like there was no
               | tomorrow" argument.
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | I never really used it detached from a wall... mostly
               | from work projects.
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _We now know why Flash was murdered_
               | 
               | This is a stupid conspiracy given Apple decided not to
               | support Flash on iPhone since before Jobs came around on
               | third-party apps. (The iPhone was launched with a vision
               | of Apple-only native apps and HTML5 web apps. The
               | latter's performance forced Cupertino's hand into
               | launching the App Store. Then they saw the golden goose.)
        
               | moralestapia wrote:
               | You ignore the state of things back then.
               | 
               | HTML5 was new and not widely supported, the web was WAY
               | more fragmented back then, to put things in perspective,
               | Internet Explorer still had the largest market share, by
               | far. The only thing that could provide the user with a
               | rich interactive experience was Flash, it was also
               | ubiquitous.
               | 
               | Flash was the biggest threat to Apple's App Store; this
               | wasn't a conspiracy, it was evident back then but I can
               | see why it is not evident to you in 2025. Jobs open
               | letter was just a formal declaration of war.
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _HTML5 was new and not widely supported_
               | 
               | Yes. It was a bad bet on the open web by Apple. But it
               | was the one they took when they decided not to support
               | Flash with the original iPhone's launch.
               | 
               | > _Flash was the biggest threat to Apple 's App Store_
               | 
               | Flash was not supported since before there was an App
               | Store. Since before Apple deigned to tolerate third-party
               | native apps.
               | 
               | You can argue that following the App Store's launch,
               | Apple's choice to not start supporting Flash was
               | influenced by pecuinary interests. But it's ahistoric to
               | suggest the reason for the original decision was based on
               | interests Cupertino had ruled out at the time.
        
             | mikestew wrote:
             | https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apples-app-store-generated-
             | ne...
        
             | IncreasePosts wrote:
             | They're confusing "sales facilitates by the app store" with
             | sales from the app store itself.
             | 
             | That 1T figure is real, but it includes things like if you
             | buy a refrigerator using the Amazon iOS app.
        
               | bangaladore wrote:
               | Yeah, the article itself even lists the reality at about
               | 20% of the 1.3T.
        
           | codybontecou wrote:
           | Will this have a revenue share / marketplace built into it?
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | > _Will this have a revenue share / marketplace built into
             | it?_
             | 
             | I'm genuinely surprised these companies went with usage-
             | based versus royalty pricing.
        
         | jjtheblunt wrote:
         | what's their moat that you refer to?
        
         | mrcwinn wrote:
         | This is nonsense. Why would they destroy the incentive to get
         | real-time, live data and MCP actions that help their users?
         | 
         | Connecting these apps will, at times, require authentication.
         | Where it does not require payment, it's a fantastic
         | distribution channel.
        
       | MaxPock wrote:
       | This is honestly useful.
       | 
       | "Find me hotels in Capetown that have a pool by the beach .Should
       | cost between 200 dollars to 800 dollars a night "
        
         | pphysch wrote:
         | [injected with guerilla ads]
         | 
         | I don't see how this is a significant upgrade over the many
         | existing hotel-finder tools. At best it slightly augments them
         | as a first pass, but I would still rather look at an actual map
         | of options than trust a stream of generated, ad-augmented text.
        
           | elpakal wrote:
           | The benefit I see is that it meets users where they
           | presumable already are (GPT). As other comments allude to
           | here, it's clear they see themselves as a staple of the
           | user's online experience.
        
           | b_e_n_t_o_n wrote:
           | I think the end game is that rather than spitting out text
           | back, the LLM transforms your plaintext request to something
           | processable, and then chooses some relevant widgets to
           | display the results.
        
       | wiradikusuma wrote:
       | In 2018, I founded a startup specializing in chatbot for events.
       | At the time the platforms were Alexa Skills, Actions on Google,
       | and Messenger Platform (and LINE Bot, for people in Asia). I
       | guess what's old is new again, but with fancier tech.
       | 
       | This time will be different?
        
         | jerf wrote:
         | We've actually got systems that can understand English now.
         | Chatbots don't have to be glorified regular expression matches
         | or based on inferior NLP. I've thought more than once that the
         | true value of LLMs could well be that they essentially solve
         | the language comprehension problem and that their ability to
         | consume language is relatively underutilized compared to our
         | attempts to get them to produce language. Under all the
         | generative bling their language comprehension and ability to
         | package that into something that conventional computing can
         | understand is pretty impressive. They've even got a certain
         | amount of common sense built in.
        
           | b_e_n_t_o_n wrote:
           | Yeah this seems accurate to me. All the talk of a bubble etc,
           | but LLMs see genuinely useful at tasks like this and I'm sure
           | we'll find more uses as time goes on.
        
         | Traubenfuchs wrote:
         | Do people even want chatbots for events?
         | 
         | I personally prefer well curated information.
        
       | irrationalfab wrote:
       | This feels like the death of the app, and the rise of the micro-
       | app.
        
       | fidotron wrote:
       | This conception makes sense iff you believe in ChatGPT as the
       | universal user interface of the future. If anything the agentic
       | wave is showing that the chat interfaces are better off hidden
       | behind stricter user interface paradigms.
        
         | nextworddev wrote:
         | The apps can send any arbitrary HTML / interface back though.
         | 
         | e.g. Coursera can send back a video player
        
         | asim wrote:
         | It's not just as ChatGPT as the interface. It's that Chat with
         | AI will now be the universal interface and every tech company
         | will have their version of it. Everything you want to do will
         | happen in one place. Cards will provide predefined and
         | interactive experience. Over time you'll see entirely dynamic
         | content get generated on the fly. The user experience is going
         | to be one where we've shrunk websites to apps and apps to cards
         | or widgets. Effectively any action you need to take can be done
         | like this and then agents can operate more complex workflow in
         | the background. This is probably the interface for the next 10
         | years and what replaces the mobile app experience and
         | stronghold that Apple or Google have. This lasts until fully
         | immersive AR/VR become a more mainstream thing. At that point
         | these cards are on a heads up display but we'll be looking at
         | something totally different. Like agents roaming the earth...
        
           | JumpCrisscross wrote:
           | This has been the pitched playbook for decades. (Metamates!)
           | I'm increasingly convinced its driven by a specific
           | generation of tech entrepreneurs who cut their teeth while
           | reading ca. 1980s science fiction.
           | 
           | I could see chat apps becoming dominant in Slack-oriented
           | workplaces. But, like, chatting with an AI to play a song is
           | objectively worse than using Spotify. Dynamically-created
           | music sounds nice until one considers the social context in
           | which non-filler music is heard.
        
             | fidotron wrote:
             | The thing it reminds me of is those old Silicon Graphics
             | greybeards that were smug about how they were creating
             | tools for people that created wealth when those other
             | system providers "just" created tools for people tracking
             | wealth.
             | 
             | There's a whole bizarre subculture in computing that fails
             | to recognize what it is about computers that people
             | actually find valuable.
        
             | neutronicus wrote:
             | Chatting with an AI to play a song whose title you know,
             | sure.
             | 
             | Getting an AI to play "that song that goes hmm hmmm hmmm
             | hmmm ... uh, it was in some commercials when I was a kid"
             | tho
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _Getting an AI to play "that song that goes hmm hmmm
               | hmmm hmmm ... uh, it was in some commercials when I was a
               | kid" tho_
               | 
               | Absolutely. The point is this is a specialised and
               | occasional use case. You don't want to have to go through
               | a chat bot every time you want to play a particular song
               | just because sometimes you might hum at it.
               | 
               | The closest we've come to a widely-adopted AR interface
               | are AirPods. Critically, however, they work by mimicing
               | how someone would speak to a real human by them.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | more abstract than that, "I'm throwing a
               | wedding/funeral/startup IPO/Halloween/birthday party for
               | a whatever year old and need appropriate music". Or,
               | without knowing specific bands, "I want to hear some 80's
               | metal music". "more cowbell!"
        
             | echelon wrote:
             | It's because Zuck can't own a pane of glass. He's locked
             | out of the smartphone duopoly.
             | 
             | Everyone wants the next device category. They covet it.
             | Every other company tries to will it into existence.
        
         | cube2222 wrote:
         | Is it? Honestly, most agents and/or ai apps I interact with
         | that are actually useful present some form of chat-like
         | interface.
         | 
         | I'm not very bullish on people wanting to live in the ChatGPT
         | UI, specifically, but the concept of dynamic apps embedded into
         | a chat-experience I think is a reasonable direction.
         | 
         | I'm mostly curious about if and when we get an open standard
         | for this, similar to MCP.
        
           | neutronicus wrote:
           | Yes, I certainly prefer "chatting with Claude Code" to
           | "Copilot taking forever to hallucinate all over my IDE,
           | displacing the much-more-useful previous-generation semantic
           | autocomplete."
           | 
           | The former is like a Waymo, the latter is like my car
           | suddenly and autonomously deciding that now is a good time to
           | turn into a Dollar Tree to get a COVID vaccine when I'm on my
           | way to drop my kid off at a playdate.
        
           | fidotron wrote:
           | The whole value of an actual executive assistant is them
           | solving problems and you not micromanaging them.
           | 
           | What users want, which various entities religiously avoid
           | providing to us, is a fair price comparison and discovery
           | mechanism for essentially everything. A huge part of the
           | value of LLMs to date is in bypassing much of the obfuscation
           | that exists to perpetuate this, and that's completely
           | counteracted by much of what they're demonstrating here.
        
         | derekcheng08 wrote:
         | I suspect there are many, many things for which chat is a great
         | interface. And by positioning ChatGPT as the distributor for
         | all these things, they get to be the new Google. But you're
         | also right that many domains for which a purpose-built
         | interface is the right approach, and if the domain is valuable
         | enough, it'll have someone coming after it to build that.
        
           | munk-a wrote:
           | I have yet to see a chat agent deployed that is more popular
           | than tailored browsing methods. The most charitable way to
           | explain this is that the tailored browsing methods already in
           | place are the results of years of careful design and battle
           | testing and that the chat agent is providing most of the
           | value that a tailored browsing method would but without any
           | of the investment required to bring a traditional UX to
           | fruition - that may be the case and if it is then allowing
           | them the same time to be refined and improved would be fair.
           | I am skeptical of that being the only difference though, I
           | think that chatbots are a way to, essentially, outsource the
           | difficult work of locating data within a corpus onto the user
           | and that users will always have a disadvantage compared to
           | the (hopefully) subject matter experts building the system.
           | 
           | So perhaps chatbots are an excellent method for building out
           | a prototype in a new field while you collect usage statistics
           | to build a more refined UX - but it is bizarre that so many
           | businesses seem to be discarding battle tested UXes for
           | chatbots.
        
             | peab wrote:
             | agree.
             | 
             | Thing is, for those who paid attention to the last chatBot
             | hype cycle, we already knew this. Look at how Google
             | Assistant was portrayed back in 2016. People thought you'd
             | be buying starbucks via the chat. Turns out the starbucks
             | app has a better UX
        
               | ryandrake wrote:
               | Yea, I don't want to sit there at my computer, which can
               | handle lots of different input methods, like keyboard,
               | mouse, clicking, dragging, or my phone which can handle
               | gestures, pinching, swiping... and try to articulate what
               | I need it to do in English language conversation. This is
               | actually a step backwards in human-computer interaction.
               | To use an extreme example: imagine instead of a knob on
               | my stereo for volume, I had a chat box where I had to
               | type in "Volume up to 35". Most other "chatbot solved"
               | HCI problems are just like this volume control example,
               | but less extreme.
        
               | potatolicious wrote:
               | It's also a matter of incentives. Starbucks wants you in
               | their app instead of as a widget in somebody else's - it
               | lets them tell you about new products, cross-sell/up-
               | sell, create habits, etc.
               | 
               | This general concept (embedding third parties as widgets
               | in a larger product) has been tried many times before.
               | Google themselves have done this - by my count - at least
               | three separate times (Search, Maps, and Assistant).
               | 
               | None have been successful in large part because the third
               | party being integrated benefits only marginally from such
               | an integration. The amount of additional traffic these
               | integrations drive generally isn't seen as being worth
               | the loss of UX control and the intermediation in the
               | customer relationship.
        
             | anal_reactor wrote:
             | > the tailored browsing methods already in place are the
             | results of years of careful design and battle testing
             | 
             | Have you ever worked in a corporation? Do you really think
             | that Windows 8 UI was the fruit of years of careful design?
             | What about Workday?
             | 
             | > but it is bizarre that so many businesses seem to be
             | discarding battle tested UXes for chatbots
             | 
             | Not really. If the chatbot is smart enough then chatbot is
             | the more natural interface. I've seen people who prefer to
             | say "hey siri set alarm clock for 10 AM" rather than use
             | the UI. Which makes sense, because language is the way
             | people literally have evolved specialized organs for. If
             | anything, language is the "battle tested UX", and the other
             | stuff is temporary fad.
             | 
             | Of course the problem is that most chatbots aren't smart.
             | But this is a purely technical problem that can be solved
             | within foreseeable future.
        
               | freehorse wrote:
               | In an alarm, there is only one parameter to set. In more
               | complex tasks, chat is a bad ui because it does not scale
               | well and it does not offer good ways to arrange
               | information. Eg if I want to buy something and I have a
               | bunch of constraints, I would rather use a search-based
               | UI where i can fast tweak these constraints and decide.
               | Chathpt being smart or not here is irrelevant, it would
               | just be bad ui for the task.
        
         | glenstein wrote:
         | There's a lot of appropriate blowback against stupid AI hype
         | and I'm all for it. But I do think in many respects it's a
         | better interface than (1) bad search results, (2) cluttered
         | websites, (3) freemium apps with upgrade nags, as well as the
         | collective search cost of sorting through all those things.
         | 
         | I remember reading some not-Neuromancer book by William Gibson
         | where one of his near-future predictions was print magazines
         | but with custom printed articles curated to fit your interests.
         | Which is cool! In a world where print magazines were still
         | dominant, you could see it as a forward iteration from the
         | magazine status quo, potentially predictive of a future to
         | come. But what happened in reality was a wholesale leapfrogging
         | of magazines.
         | 
         | So I think you sometimes get leapfrogging rather than
         | iteration, which I suspect is in play as a possibility with AI
         | driven apps. I don't think apps will ever literally be replaced
         | but I think there's a real chance they get displaced by AI
         | everything-interfaces. I think the mitigating factor is not
         | some foundational limit to AI's usefulness but
         | enshittification, which I don't think used to consume good
         | services so voraciously in the 00s or 2010s as it does today.
         | Something tells me we might look back at the current chat based
         | interfaces as the good old days.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | at least with bad search results, you had to look at them to
           | know they were bad or become used to certain domains that you
           | could prejudge the result and move to the next one. LLMs
           | confidently tell you false/made up information as fact. If
           | you fail to follow up with any references and just accept
           | result, you are very susceptible to getting fooled by the
           | machine. Getting outside of the tech bubble echo chamber that
           | is HN, a large number of GPT app users have never heard of
           | hallucinations or any of the issues inherit with LLMs.
        
           | jerojero wrote:
           | I think you need to be careful here because you shouldn't be
           | comparing chat apps to the current state of search results.
           | Instead you compare it to the ideal or to the state of them
           | before companies decided that instead of providing what
           | people are looking for it was more profitable to provide them
           | with related content that they're paid to show.
           | 
           | We are at a moment where we're trying to figure out how to
           | design good interfaces, but very soon after that the moment
           | of "okay, now let's start selling with them" will come and
           | that's really what we're going to be left with.
           | 
           | In that regard, things like adblockers which now a days can
           | be used to mitigate some of these defects you talk about are
           | probably going to be much more difficult to implement in a
           | chat-app interface. What are we going to do when we ask an
           | agent for something and it responds with an ad rather than
           | the relevant information we're seeking? It seems to me like
           | it's going to be even more difficult to be in control for the
           | user.
        
         | artursapek wrote:
         | Once it's efficient enough, you will be able to just vocally
         | talk to your computer to do all of this. Text chat is just the
         | simplest form of a natural language interface, which is
         | obviously the future of computing.
        
         | AlphaAndOmega0 wrote:
         | >If anything the agentic wave is showing that the chat
         | interfaces are better off hidden behind stricter user interface
         | paradigms.
         | 
         | I'm not sure that claim is justified. The primary agentic use
         | case _today_ is code generation, and the target demographic is
         | used to IDEs /code editors.
         | 
         | While that's probably a good chunk of total token usage, it's
         | not representative of the _average_ user 's needs or desires. I
         | strongly doubt that the chat interface would have become so
         | ubiquitous if it didn't have merit.
         | 
         | Even for more general agentic use, a chat interface allows the
         | user the convenience of typing or dictating messages. And it's
         | trivially bundled with audio-to-audio or video-to-video, the
         | former already being common.
         | 
         | I expect that even in the future, if/when richer modalities
         | become standard (and the models can produce video in real-
         | time), most people will be consuming their outputs as text.
         | It's simply more convenient for most use-cases.
        
           | GoatInGrey wrote:
           | Having already seen this explored late '24, what ends up
           | happening is that the end user generates apps that have lots
           | of jank, quirks, and logical errors that they lack the
           | ability to troubleshoot or resolve. Like the fast forward
           | button corrupting their settings config, the cloud sync
           | feature causing 100% CPU load, icons gradually drifting away
           | from their original positions on each window resize event, or
           | the GUI tutorial activating every time they switch views in
           | the app. Even worse, because their app is the only one of its
           | kind, there is no other human to turn to for advice.
        
         | notatoad wrote:
         | i can't imagine that users will be interested in asking chatGPT
         | to ask zillow things, or ask chatGPT to ask canva to do things.
         | that's a clunky interface. i can see users asking chatGPT to
         | look up house prices, or to generate graphics, but they're not
         | going to ask for zillow or canva specifically.
         | 
         | and if the apps are trusting ChatGPT to send them users based
         | on those sort of queries, it's only a matter of time before
         | ChatGPT brings the functionality first-party and cuts out the
         | apps - any app who believes chat is the universal interface of
         | the future _and_ exposes their functionality as a ChatGPT app
         | is signing their own death warrant.
        
           | echelon wrote:
           | Every company should see OpenAi as a threat. They absolutely
           | will come for you when the time comes.
           | 
           | It's just like Google and websites, but much more insidious.
           | If they can get your data, they'll subsume your function (and
           | revenue stream).
        
         | gapeslape wrote:
         | I agree with what you are saying.
         | 
         | I'm building a tool that helps you solve any type of
         | questionnaire (https://requestf.com) and I just can't imagine
         | how I could leverage Apps.
         | 
         | It would be awesome to get the distribution, but it has to also
         | make sense from the UX perspective.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _conception makes sense iff you believe in ChatGPT as the
         | universal user interface of the future_
         | 
         | Out of curiosity, why iff?
        
       | siva7 wrote:
       | This feels like a fever dream. As a developer everything changes
       | every week. A new model, a new tool, a new sdk, paradigm we have
       | to learn. I'm getting tired of all that shit.
        
         | nlarew wrote:
         | Who says you have to learn this? You are free to ignore it if
         | it's overwhelming.
         | 
         | I'd much rather see a thriving ecosystem full of competition
         | and innovation than a more stagnant alternative.
        
           | throwacct wrote:
           | With what exactly? They are desperately trying to create a
           | "marketplace" and become gatekeepers on the backs of
           | developers and businesses alike. There's no innovation here.
        
             | serial_dev wrote:
             | I guess what's implied is that developers and businesses
             | would innovate, not OpenAI directly.
        
               | throwacct wrote:
               | Knowing OAI's history, only big whales could survive
               | being copied by the platform's owner--case in point:
               | Amazon Basics. They're so big that most of the time, SMBs
               | can't escape them and don't have a choice but to cave to
               | Amazon's demands. Is your product successful? Great, I'll
               | copy you, add the "Amazon basics" label, and start
               | bombarding users with my "product".
        
               | pkaye wrote:
               | Amazon basics is a private label just like Costco and the
               | Kirkland Brand. Same thing with Walmart, Target, Trader
               | Joes, etc. And if these SMBs don't have to deal with
               | Amazon, they will have to deal with a dozen copycats from
               | China for anything that becomes a hit.
        
               | throwacct wrote:
               | Please check how Amazon Basics works and what SMBs are
               | saying.
        
           | 65 wrote:
           | For me the most annoying thing is APIs arbitrarily changing
           | all the time. Completely change the entire Tailwind, ESLint,
           | AWS SDK, etc APIs every 6 months? Why not! Heaven forbid you
           | don't touch a project for a few months, blink and all your
           | code is outdated.
        
         | wahnfrieden wrote:
         | Welcome to technology
        
         | esafak wrote:
         | Specialize, escape, or accept.
        
           | falcor84 wrote:
           | Like "Abort, Retry, Fail"? And same as there, what's the
           | difference between the first and the third? Is there a way of
           | accepting a new sdk every week without specializing?
        
         | garbawarb wrote:
         | Just get an LLM to do it for you.
        
         | alvis wrote:
         | The question is, whether having UI in chatgpt a game changer,
         | fundamentally?
        
         | jampa wrote:
         | As a JS developer for over 10 years who has seen multiple hype
         | waves, here is my advice: You don't need to ride the first
         | wave. You can wait until technology matures and see if it has
         | staying power.
         | 
         | For example, React and TypeScript were hard to set up
         | initially. I deferred learning them for years until the tooling
         | improved and they were clearly here to stay. Likewise, I'm glad
         | I didn't dive into tech like LangChain and CoffeeScript, which
         | came and went.
        
           | pyuser583 wrote:
           | LangChain has gone? I thought it was still around.
        
             | jampa wrote:
             | It's still around, but the hype has faded. Users discovered
             | numerous issues with the project and began abandoning it. I
             | remember one month when everyone was all, "LangChain is the
             | future," and another month when the sentiment became:
             | "LangChain is terrible."
             | 
             | You can see the hype cycle's timeline in HN's Algolia
             | search: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix
             | =true&que...
        
             | ajcp wrote:
             | It is but I feel it's main value prop as a developer
             | friendly abstraction layer has been very well solved for by
             | the actual model providers themselves, while LangChain
             | itself have become more bloated, clunky, and to under-
             | opinionated.
        
           | awesome_dude wrote:
           | This is how I feel about Rust.
           | 
           | The big hype wave has finished now (we still have the "how
           | dare you criticise our technology bros" roaming around
           | though), the tooling is maturing now. It's almost time for me
           | to actually get my feet wet with it :)
        
         | cube2222 wrote:
         | You just point your AI agent at the docs and have it build the
         | integration with your app for you :)
         | 
         | On a more serious note, it remains to be seen if this even
         | sticks / is widely embraced.
        
         | apwell23 wrote:
         | nothing really changed much here though. re llms nothing really
         | has changed either, its mostly just scaling. there is really
         | not much to learn as a consumer and app builder.
        
       | darkwater wrote:
       | Oh, I guess tomorrow when American HQs come online we will get
       | some new shiny thing barely tested that needs to be deployed in
       | production ASAP. Or maybe there is already something waiting for
       | me in Slack...
        
       | itsnowandnever wrote:
       | this seems kinda silly, especially given their previous app store
       | flop. but I'm just happy there's some spark and competition in
       | tech again. it's felt like the industry has been pretty stagnant
       | since web 2.0 (more stagnant than any other time in the last
       | 40-50 years, anyway). but this AI stuff feels like another "1977
       | Trinity" moment
       | 
       | so, best of luck to OAI. we'll see how this plays out
        
       | nextworddev wrote:
       | Your SaaS / Business is my Tool
        
       | hubraumhugo wrote:
       | Why does everyone think chat is better UX than traditional
       | interfaces? I get the AI hype, but so many products are not a fit
       | for chat interfaces.
       | 
       | Why would I use a chat to do what could be done quicker with a
       | simple and intuitive button/input UX (e.g. Booking or Zillow
       | search/filter)? Chat also has really poor discoverability of what
       | I can actually do with it.
        
         | throwacct wrote:
         | This x100. This is HCI 101. I'm glad I took that class during
         | my master's program. It opened my eyes to a new world.
        
       | WillieCubed wrote:
       | It's poetic that Google attempted to pursue apps within Google
       | Assistant years ago, but the vision of apps within an AI
       | assistant is more feasible now with LLMs that (whether actually
       | or not) understand arbitrary user intents and more flexible
       | connectors to third party apps via MCP (and a viral platform with
       | 700+ million weekly active users).
       | 
       | Custom GPTs (and Gemini gems) didn't really work because they
       | didn't have any utility outside the chat window. They were really
       | just bundled prompt workflows that relied on the inherent
       | abilities of the model. But now with MCP, agent-based apps are
       | way more useful.
       | 
       | I believe there's a fundamentally different shift going on here:
       | in the endgame that OpenAI, Anthropic et al. are racing toward,
       | there will be little need for developers for the kinds of
       | consumer-facing apps that OpenAI appears to be targeting.
       | 
       | OpenAI hinted at this idea at the end of their Codex demo: the
       | future will be built from software built on demand, tailored to
       | each user's specific needs.
       | 
       | Even if one doesn't believe that AI will completely automate
       | software development, it's not unreasonable to think that we can
       | build deterministic tooling to wrap LLMs and provide
       | functionality that's good enough for a wide range of consumer
       | experiences. And when pumping out code and architecting software
       | becomes easy to automate with little additional marginal cost,
       | some of the only moats other companies have are user trust (e.g.
       | knowing that Coursera's content is at least made by real humans
       | grounded in reality), the ability to coordinate markets and
       | transform capital (e.g. dealing with three-sided marketplaces on
       | DoorDash), switching costs, or ability to handle regulatory
       | burdens.
       | 
       | The cynic in me says that today's announcements are really just a
       | stopgap measure to: - Further increase the utility of ChatGPT for
       | users, turning it into the de facto way of accessing the internet
       | for younger users a la how Facebook was (is?) in developing
       | countries - Pave the way for by commoditizing OpenAI's
       | complements (traditional SaaS apps) as ChatGPT becomes more
       | capable as a platform with first-party experiences - Increase the
       | value of the company to acquire more clout with enterprises and
       | other business deals
       | 
       | But cynicism aside, this is pretty cool. I think there's a solid
       | foundation here for the kind of intent-based, action-oriented
       | computing that I think will benefit non-technical people
       | immensely.
        
       | throwacct wrote:
       | Yeah... no. I'm going to pass. The premise is bad from any angle.
       | In the case of businesses, why "create" another "Amazon" and
       | compete with other brands when the focus should be on getting
       | customers through my sales funnel? For developers is much worse
       | since they are going to copy Amazon's model with brands that
       | found a niche: Amazon Basics. In this case, it'll be OpenAI
       | "core" (or something like that), where you do all the work, and
       | when your "app" is somewhat famous enough or getting traction,
       | they'll copy it, rebrand it, and bombard all old and new
       | customers to use it instead of yours.
       | 
       | I'mma call it now just for the fun of it: This will go the way of
       | their "GPT" store.
        
       | mirzap wrote:
       | Is it just me, or does it seem odd that if you truly believed AGI
       | would be achieved within a few years, you wouldn't launch an app
       | store for AI apps? I don't think an app store makes any sense in
       | a post-AGI world.
        
       | OtherShrezzing wrote:
       | OpenAI launched an App Store in Nov 2023. A 23 month turnaround
       | from major feature launch, to deprecation, to relaunch is a
       | commitment to product longevity that'd put Google to shame.
        
         | AlphaAndOmega0 wrote:
         | I found it genuinely impressive how useless their "GPTs" were.
         | 
         | Of course, part of it was due to the fact that the out-of-the-
         | box models became so competent that there was no need for a
         | customized model, especially when customization boiled down to
         | barely more than some kind of custom system prompt and hidden
         | instructions. I get the impression that's the same reason their
         | fine-tuning services never took off either, since it was easier
         | to just load necessary information into the context window of a
         | standard instance.
         | 
         | Edit: In all fairness, this was before most tool use,
         | connectors or MCP. I am at least open to the idea that these
         | might allow for a reasonable value add, but I'm still
         | skeptical.
        
           | CharlieDigital wrote:
           | > I get the impression that's the same reason their fine-
           | tuning services never took off either
           | 
           | Also, very few workloads that you'd want to use AI for are
           | prime cases for fine-tuning. We had some cases where we used
           | fine tuning because the work was repetitive enough that FT
           | provided benefits in terms of speed and accuracy, but it was
           | a very limited set of workloads.
        
             | apwell23 wrote:
             | > fine tuning because the work was repetitive enough that
             | FT provided benefits in terms of speed and accuracy,
             | 
             | can you share anymore info on this. i am curious about what
             | the usecase was and how it improved speed (of inference?)
             | and accuracy.
        
               | CharlieDigital wrote:
               | Very typical e-commerce use cases processing scraped
               | content: product categorization, review sentiment, etc.
               | where the scope is very limited. We would process tens of
               | thousands of these so faster inference with a cheaper
               | model with FT was advantageous.
               | 
               | Disclaimer: this was in the 3.5 Turbo "era" so models
               | like `nano` now might be cheap enough, good enough, fast
               | enough to do this even without FT.
        
         | kbar13 wrote:
         | product roadmap was also ai generated
        
       | helloguillecl wrote:
       | Chat offers a far better experience than using Google--no more
       | searching through spam-filled results, clicking between sponsored
       | links, accepting endless cookie banners, and trying to read a
       | tiny bit of useful content buried among ads and clutter.
       | 
       | It has the potential to bridge the gap between pure conversation
       | and the functionality of a full website.
        
         | d4mi3n wrote:
         | I'm just worried they we'll go from very obvious advertising to
         | advertising that's a lot harder to spot.
         | 
         | I can block adds on a search engine. I cannot prevent an LMM
         | from having hidden biases about what the best brand of vodka or
         | car is.
        
           | helloguillecl wrote:
           | I agree. But Google has gone in that direction long ago: ads
           | are now harder to distinguish from genuine search results. In
           | many cases, the organic results are buried so deep that they
           | don't even appear in the first visible section of the page
           | anymore.
        
           | somuchdata wrote:
           | Google could also have allowed invisible pay-for-placement
           | without marking it as an ad. Presumably they didn't do that
           | because undermining the perceived trustworthiness of their
           | search results would have been a net loss. I wonder if chat
           | will go in that same direction or not.
        
             | jerojero wrote:
             | Pretty sure it's illegal to present advertisement and not
             | label it as such in some form.
             | 
             | But as with everything, as new technologies emerge, you can
             | devise legal loopholes that don't totally apply to you and
             | probably need regulation before it's decided that "yeah,
             | actually, that does apply to me".
        
       | saberience wrote:
       | What is the incentive for developers to build apps for this
       | platform? I don't see any way of monetizing them at all.
        
         | jimmydoe wrote:
         | fear of missing out, as always, be the first flappy bird in the
         | store.
        
       | bonoboTP wrote:
       | This is part of the fight regarding whether we will have utility
       | apps inside the chat app or chatboxes inside the utility apps.
       | Obviously OpenAI would prefer that they are in the driver seat
       | and delegate to passive apps, while regular apps like Booking
       | would prefer to be the app the user uses and to run an AI chatbox
       | nested inside their own app UI, so they can swap it out etc.
       | 
       | Convenience-wise probably this model is more viable, and things
       | will get centralized to the AI apps. And the nested utilities
       | will be walled gardens on steroids. Using custom software and
       | general computing (in the manner of the now discontinued
       | sideloading on Android) will get even further away for the
       | average person.
        
         | somuchdata wrote:
         | They also released ChatKit today for building in-app chat UI
         | experiences, so it seems like OpenAI is trying to make sure
         | they get a larger slice of the pie no matter which interaction
         | model wins.
        
       | whinvik wrote:
       | Ads. They created ads. Now (or eventually) they can charge app
       | developers to be featured first for a specific use case.
        
         | risyachka wrote:
         | How else would the company sell their product? and keep people
         | employed.
         | 
         | Of course ads will be there and this is good. A bad thing would
         | be if they took a bunch of traffic from google and then gave no
         | way to promote your products.
         | 
         | That would lead to companies closing and layoffs and economy
         | decline.
        
         | sumedh wrote:
         | Ads was always the end goal, they have an opportunity to become
         | a bigger player than Google in the ad space.
         | 
         | Instead of the user wasting time, ChatGpt can come up with the
         | recommendations.
        
       | nthypes wrote:
       | chat is the best interface for information retrieval and REPL-
       | like experiences. for all the rest, chat is horrible.
        
       | darajava wrote:
       | I don't understand, what could be built with this platform that
       | wouldn't be made obsolete by conceivable updates to ChatGPT?
       | 
       | Another commenter suggested a hotel search function:
       | 
       | > Find me hotels in Capetown that have a pool by the beach
       | .Should cost between 200 dollars to 800 dollars a night
       | 
       | ChatGPT can _already_ do this. Similarly, their own pizza lookup
       | example seems like it would exist or nearly exist with current
       | functionality. I can 't think of a single non-trivial app that
       | could be built on this platform - and if there are any, I can't
       | think of any that would be useful or not in immediate danger of
       | being swallowed by advances to ChatGPT.
        
         | bonoboTP wrote:
         | There are multiple branches they are exploring. This is a more
         | structured one. But they also work on Agents that load the
         | website and produce clicks to do the task. Also, this requires
         | hand design, but they also work on generating the gui just-in-
         | time, based on context.
         | 
         | They also have this new design gui for visual programming of
         | agents, with boxes and arrows.
         | 
         | It's going to be a hybrid of all these. Obviously the more
         | explicit work done for interoperability, the easier it is, but
         | the gaps can be bridged with the common sense of the AI at the
         | expense of more time and compute. It's like, a self driving car
         | can detect red lights and speed limit signs via cameras but if
         | there are structured signals in smart infrastructure, then it's
         | simpler and better.
         | 
         | But it's always interesting to see this dance between
         | unstructured and structured. Apparently any time one gets big,
         | the other is needed. When theres tons of structured code, we
         | want AI common sense to cut through it because even if it's
         | structured, it's messy and too complicated. So we generate the
         | code. Now if we have natural language code generators we want
         | to impose structure onto how they work, which we express in
         | markup languages, then small scripts, then large scripts that
         | are too complex and have too much boilerplate so we need AI to
         | generate it from natural language etc etc
        
       | skeeter2020 wrote:
       | Seems wild to have an App SDK for a technology that's 1. supposed
       | to free us from purpose-built APIs and interfaces, and 2.
       | comprised entirely of a single textbox. Feels perhaps more like a
       | MS-type strategy of standards and formal rules intended to lock
       | down the extended ecosystem?
        
         | reed1234 wrote:
         | I think they want businesses to be more tightly integrated with
         | ChatGPT to open up future opportunities for monetization.
        
       | outlore wrote:
       | remember when custom GPTs would just need an OpenAPI spec to be
       | compatible with any existing API out there? we've been through
       | this app store journey once before, maybe it's different this
       | time since we now have agents and MCP
        
       | Illniyar wrote:
       | I can't understand the documentation. How are the interactive
       | elements embedded in the chat? Are they just iFrames?
       | 
       | The docs mention returning resources, and the example is
       | returning a rust file as a resource, which is nonsensical.
       | 
       | This seems similar to MCP UI in result but it's not clear how it
       | works internally.
        
         | willtheperson wrote:
         | If the connector is enabled by the prompt or via a UI
         | interaction, it calls your MCP server. They have created some
         | meta fields your tool can respond with, one of which is
         | something about producing a widget along with a field for html.
         | 
         | In the current implementation, it makes an iframe (or webview
         | on native) that loads a sandboxed environment which then gets
         | another iframe with your html injected. Your html can include
         | meta field whitelisted remote resources.
        
       | spullara wrote:
       | Do the examples work for any else?
       | 
       | https://github.com/openai/openai-apps-sdk-examples/issues/1
        
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