[HN Gopher] Focus Is Saying No
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Focus Is Saying No
Author : HideInNews
Score : 69 points
Date : 2025-10-05 17:08 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (medium.com)
| randunel wrote:
| > Looking back, I realized I had worked on a lot of low-impact
| projects -- tasks that made no impact on users and no impact on
| the team, like updating outdated libraries. The old library
| worked fine without any updates. Updating it took weeks of my
| time but delivered zero value to the team or business. I did it
| simply because my manager told me to.
|
| > Early in my career, I said "yes" often. As I got more
| experience, I learned when to say "no."
|
| -----
|
| I'd hate to be the one who refused updating the libraries which
| caused the security breach and significant loss of data,
| reputation and money.
| adrianmsmith wrote:
| Then again, this person's job is to focus on their career.
| Their manager told them
|
| > Because... some lack business value. These tasks aren't
| business priorities and had no impact on customers and other
| teams
|
| So if those "some" include upgrades, then I would say it's
| rational for the employee to focus on tasks that are going to
| get them a promotion.
|
| I don't agree with that myself, I agree with you that upgrades
| are important, but this person is going to get a promotion
| through doing whatever their manager wants, and that apparently
| doesn't include upgrades.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| The unfortunate reality of "creating impact" is that visible
| features in product teams will always be measured higher as
| compared to work that has 2nd or 3rd order effects that are
| hard to quantify.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| What company has ever been seriously harmed by a security
| breach?
|
| I'm clearly a bit nihilistic, but I've never seen a case where
| it matters. If a company leaks the information of millions of
| people there is, at most, a small financial cost and stock
| prices keeps going up.
| shmerl wrote:
| _> Because... some lack business value_
|
| Very dumb response to the code modernization work. Just because
| it's not a product feature, it absolutely doesn't mean it has no
| business value.
|
| I also completely disagree that the lesson from it is saying no
| to such efforts. Increasing tech debt in the name of "more
| business value" is the worst idea any team can have.
|
| If team leadership sees no value in such work, the team is set to
| fail.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| ... as is the company. This has _Unicorn Project_ written all
| over it.
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| These days I am working on some 20 year old code used in a few
| dozen manufacturing plants around the globe; the reason I asked
| to be allowed to fix it and the reason my manager allowed me to
| do it is that we have performance issues in some of the biggest
| plants (by the number of production lines) and this code is
| part of the problem. If that would not be the case, that code
| would continue to run as is for another 10 years.
|
| Code modernization _in some circumstances_ does not bring
| business value. In the plants we have _some_ hardware that is
| decades old and it works as well as the one built last year,
| more modern software would bring no difference as physical
| limits (ex: how many bottles you can fill on a line) makes a
| line capable to run on a smartphone with MS-DOS and Turbo
| Pascal on it (we don 't use that, of course). If it runs and
| you cannot improve it more than the cost of the improvement,
| leave it as is.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| A lot of words , and not as direct as they could be, to say "work
| on what is going to advance your personal goals."
|
| If you are a careerist and working on your boss's pet projects is
| going to advance that, then say yes whether or not they have
| "business value." (If they aren't though, then work on something
| else.)
|
| If you are an early employee / significant shareholder, then
| absolutely do what has "business value" and nothing else. That
| could be boring library updates or it could be something else.
| objclxt wrote:
| > These tasks aren't business priorities and had no impact on
| customers and other teams
|
| ...the author has reached the wrong conclusion from this. The
| problem is they weren't able to articulate _why_ the
| modernization tasks were business priorities, not that the
| modernization wasn 't a business priority in the first place.
|
| If the tech debt is problematic, fixing it will presumably bring
| a number of benefits (faster development cycles, reduced defect
| rates, etc). They were doing the wrong work - they were doing a
| terrible job explaining why that work was necessary.
|
| In many ways, tech debt and modernization is a _near guaranteed_
| way to have business impact, in a way product work is not. If you
| 're at Meta and you figure out how to save 1% of total CPU time
| on the server by fixing some tech debt you can expect to be
| showered with money.
| hexis wrote:
| Seems pretty awful that the manager let him work on software
| upgrades for two years without telling him that work would not
| lead to the promotion he was clearly planning on.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > without telling him that work would not lead to the promotion
| he was clearly planning on.
|
| The way I read it, he waited two years to express his desire to
| pursue promotion.
|
| The manager saw the topic as a starting point for the promotion
| discussion and tried to explain what steps to take to get
| there.
|
| The employee saw the discussion as the _end point_ of his
| unrevealed promotion quest and was surprised that his history
| alone was not aligned with promotion exportations.
|
| This all could have been clarified with a simple conversation
| 1-2 years ago expressing intent to pursue promotion and asking
| what it would take to get there.
| beder wrote:
| This is how I read it too. What's more, it looks like they're
| interested in going senior -> staff; at all Large Tech
| Companies, senior is a perfectly reasonable "terminal" role
| for a SWE, and many SWEs _don 't_ want to get promoted to
| staff. (Staff SWE is a different job from senior SWE; you
| might not want want to do that job, and that's typically
| fine.)
|
| So I think the lesson here is wrong too - when the manager
| said
|
| > These tasks aren't business priorities and had no impact on
| customers and other teams
|
| that didn't mean they were worthless tasks - just that they
| weren't business priorities and had no impact on customers or
| other teams. Which is probably true(ish - I would have
| phrased it very differently if I were their manager).
|
| Improving the release process is great, and helps the team a
| ton - and _indirectly_ helps customers by enabling the team
| to ship faster. This is incredibly valuable! And at the right
| scale, it _can_ be a staff job: at my Large Tech Company, I
| know several people that have been promoted to staff SWE for
| this kind of work, but it 's for systems that hundreds of
| SWEs work on. I also know people that have been promoted to
| senior SWE for this kind of work - these are systems that
| tens of SWEs work on. It sounds like this example was more
| like that - this person was doing a good senior SWE job, and
| the manager didn't see any reason to course correct _given
| that_ they had given no signal they wanted to get promoted.
| bluGill wrote:
| Managers should figure out plans with their employees. It is
| too easy for someone focused on one thing to get lost in
| something that doesn't matter. It is your manager job to stop
| from doing that.
|
| note that often preventing problems is not rewarded. Putting
| out a fire you caused is. Good managers will help you explain
| why this not obviously useful thing is valuable because of
| the proplem it prevented.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Now if my manager asks me to do tasks that I believe add no
| value to the team or business, I'll politely say no.
|
| This is the wrong lesson to take from this situation.
|
| If you start saying no to tasks assigned by your manager, you are
| not going to get promoted. You're going to end up on PIP track
| for insubordination.
|
| The appropriate response is to communicate. The OP arrived in
| this situation because they didn't communicate anything about
| promotion expectations for two years. Discuss your desire to take
| on more important tasks in those 1 on 1 meetings and do it early.
| The fatal mistake in this blog post was waiting two long years
| before revealing the desire to pursue promotion, then being
| surprised that past performance did not meet expectations for
| something that was never discussed. You need to be periodically
| asking for feedback.
|
| A perfect manager would have brought up the question and asked if
| promotion was a goal earlier on. However, in my experience this
| conversation is a lot more contentious than I assumed as some
| people prefer to be comfortable in their role and interpret
| unprompted promotion discussions as uninvited pressure or a
| subtle threat that it's "up or out". As an employee, you can't
| wait around for your manager to bring up topics you want to
| discuss. You have to state your goals and ask for alignment.
| lolive wrote:
| During a face2face with my n+2, he once told me << manage your
| manager >>. I discovered later that he had been forced to hire
| my n+1 but did not like him at all. And that the message was
| basically: << he is a bozo whereas you a competent engineer.
| Don't be fooled by the organization chart. >>
|
| So sometimes saying no to your n+1 is totally in line with your
| n+2 :)
| Buttons840 wrote:
| By the time a company is that dysfunctional, why bother? Just
| do the minimum to get paid.
|
| I mean it. I want to work for a company where everyone is
| working towards the common goal of making the company
| profitable. But there comes a point where the company is
| overrun by politics and selfish and harmful decisions.
|
| By the time dysfunctional company politics empower a "bozo",
| why should I stress or put any care into such a company? I'll
| just do the minimum.
| lolive wrote:
| My company is insanely profitable, plagued with bozos as
| middle managers. But after some years you have your network
| of righteous fellows, and live with them much more than
| with your organization chart. So that is not a big deal.
|
| But I agree that promotion is not exactly an option, as I
| would become crazy only surrounded by bozos.
|
| There is also an expert path, for people wanting to be
| promoted, but for their technical excellence. Guess what?
| There too, the political tricks have led to empower not so
| excellent people, i.e bozo-compatible ones.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| On a related tangent:
|
| Does anyone have any advice on how to politely say "I like the
| company, I want to stay, but I don't like my current work and
| if it doesn't change for the better I'm going to leave in
| 6-months".
|
| I once tried to say this as politely as possible, but I think I
| might have been too polite and tactful and they didn't
| understand. I had a date in mind, and had a conversation
| 6-months, 3-months, and 1-month before I left. When I announced
| my departure they tried to get me to stay.
| shibaprasadb wrote:
| In a similar boat right now. The org is good. So is the
| culture. The manager is also good. But the work....! Neither
| learning something nor finding any alignment. Really
| confused.
| doesnt_know wrote:
| I personally don't think ultimatums are a tool that you
| should ever employ in an employment situation outside of
| collective action.
|
| You can just leave off the ultimatum and attempt to improve
| your situation by communicating it in a way that is directly
| actionable (I'd like to work on X instead of Y, can you
| arrange that?). You'll have your own internal deadlines of
| course, but you shouldn't communicate them.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| The ultimate exists whether or not you communicate it. I
| would hope that with enough tact that truth could be
| communicated.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| Just be careful - some will see it as having their arm
| twisted. You may get what you want in the short run, but
| in the long run, when you negotiate with leverage, people
| dislike that.
|
| It is the nuclear option, and you will lose the trust of
| your leadership chain.
| hobs wrote:
| The main thing is that if someone isn't going to do
| something in normal circumstances, an ultimatum is really
| for yourself to be done with waiting.
| bluGill wrote:
| Ever is too strong, but remember the less often you give an
| ultimatum the more powerful it is when you do. When you
| have a long standing reputation (must come first) as a
| 'team player' a sudden ultimatum will get a lot of
| attention, but it will be years before you can give
| another.
|
| if like many you switch jobs every few years you can never
| develop that reputation needed for an ulimatum in the first
| place. (Staying for years is never 100% in your power but
| some jobs have better chances of it)
| naet wrote:
| Sounds like what you are really trying to say is "I want to
| change teams".
|
| Or _maybe_ "I want to work on ____ new project, and my
| working this would be beneficial to the business because
| ____". But you have to have a real case for it and for why
| you are the right person for it
| jcelerier wrote:
| > but I don't like my current work and if it doesn't change
| for the better
|
| I try really hard but never understand where does this belief
| comes that you have to love your work.
| doesnt_know wrote:
| > If you start saying no to tasks assigned by your manager, you
| are not going to get promoted. You're going to end up on PIP
| track for insubordination.
|
| I've had a lot of success in asking "are you asking me to do
| this or telling me", when I've been tasked with something I
| think is extremely dumb.
|
| If the response is "I'm asking", then I will usually respond
| with some variation of "can you assign it to someone else, or
| better yet, throw the task in the garbage".
|
| If the response is "I'm telling you", then I'll go on a spiel
| about how I think it's incredibly stupid and the people
| involved in this decision are bad at their jobs, then get on
| and do it.
|
| But if you're reading this, there is a good chance you are
| American, so take this advice with a massive grain of salt as
| I'm not. The culture here in NZ sounds extremely different to
| almost everything I've read on this forum.
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| I think it is a wrong take of what he said. There are many
| cases when you can say no to small tasks or projects if you can
| prove they are low value and there are better items on the
| list. I do that all the time and none of my managers had a
| problem with it, in the past decade most of my managers let me
| pick what I want to work on because they know I can prioritize
| better than they can.
|
| I never saw someone saying no without a reason and if there is
| a reason, then there is a discussion around it, one can be
| right or wrong about it but it is usually easy to clarify and
| move on. It is not the "no" or a spoiled 5 year kid, it is the
| "no" of an experienced professional that values their time and
| priorities.
| fcatalan wrote:
| In many occasions, if there's a proposal for something very
| stupid or pointless I've found it's better to just say "yes",
| knowing full well the thing will never get done. The manager
| didn't really want the thing. He wanted a good happy meeting
| and to hear "yes".
| QuantumGood wrote:
| Saying "no" can get you into trouble in a hierarchy. There are
| many ways leading to no without saying "no", such as:
|
| * I'll look into it
|
| * I'll see what I can do
|
| * I'll review that right away
|
| This isn't me saying "say these things", I'm just pointing out
| this is an age-old problem, and saying "no" inwardly is
| different than saying it outwardly. Various ways of inquiring
| about options are also commonplace.
| eptcyka wrote:
| If I tell someone to do thing A and they look into it and
| decide to not do it, the reason better be a whole lot better
| than _I didn't feel like it_ or _I wouldn't be promoted if I
| did that_.
| kaveh_h wrote:
| Nice post, really relatable. It also feels like a management
| miss. If someone spends years modernizing and only finds out
| later it "doesn't count," that should have been clarified early
| on.
|
| Tech debt work absolutely adds value, it just rarely gets
| measured or recognized. Maybe that is one reason so many
| companies struggle over time, they keep skipping payments on
| their tech debt interest.
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| As a manager you may have 10 people reporting to you. Some do
| more important work, some do less important work, but when you
| are considering them for promotions there are other factors
| too. I am not talking about promotions from junior dev to
| regular or regular to senior, I am talking about promotions to
| positions where they are responsible for other people. In my
| almost 30 years working in IT in multiple companies I found
| that most good technical people are not good managers;
| similarly most managers are technically bad. Best managers are
| the ones that Steve Jobs described in one of his famous
| interviews (I will leave the pleasure of having him tell it, it
| is worth spending the 3 minutes).
|
| In any case, there may be others doing more important work and
| there may be others better suited for promotions. It is a zero
| sum game, the number of people, positions and promotions is
| always limited so if X is promoted, Y cannot be and if X is a
| better one for the promotion, Y will have to either wait, move
| on or keep doing what they do.
| iddan wrote:
| https://youtu.be/QplyFXgIx7Q?si=zhSSJ5Hcu2hNWZkz
| majormajor wrote:
| If you're waiting for your manager to tell you "do X" before
| saying, "no, I won't do X, it's not valuable" you are still way
| behind for high-level promotions even on an individual-
| contributor track.
|
| Figure out what _is_ important to the business - and
| specifically, what 's important to the business _under you 're
| manager's area of responsibility_. Figure out and clearly
| articulate _why_. Sometimes this will be modernization
| (especially if there are ongoing costly outage, downtime, or
| compliance issues), sometimes it will be features (if your
| customers, stakeholders, and other devs aren 't having big issues
| from tech debt. Proactively propose this to your manager, work
| collaboratively to build the roadmap. Your manager rarely has
| enough time to deep into the weeds on prioritization from a
| technical POV, so your input will be appreciated as long as (a)
| it's _actually_ in line with business priorities in a way
| relevant to your manager, and (b) your manager isn 't a paranoid
| psychopath who thinks you're undermining them or coming for
| _their_ job.
|
| But if your manager is a paranoid psychopath you've got bigger
| problems and you're not gonna finesse your way around them by
| declining tasks either.
|
| You should also communicate your career goals and expectations -
| this might help you figure out "is my manager a psychopath"
| earlier rather than later too. A strong manager would've stopped
| you from spinning your wheels much earlier, in this scenario; but
| even a meh manager can help you climb the ladder if you're
| collaborative. Especially if they start to feel like you're key
| to _their_ success too.
| teddyh wrote:
| Company without a strategy:
|
| [Phone rings]
|
| Employee thinks: "Oh-oh... What should I do?"
|
| Company with a strategy:
|
| Employee says on the phone: "We don't do that"
|
| -- _Build a Better Life by Stealing Office Supplies: Dogbert 's
| Big Book of Business_, Scott Adams, 1991
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