[HN Gopher] Toyota runs a car-hacking event to boost security (2...
___________________________________________________________________
Toyota runs a car-hacking event to boost security (2024)
Author : octagons
Score : 129 points
Date : 2025-10-04 03:11 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (toyotatimes.jp)
(TXT) w3m dump (toyotatimes.jp)
| LPisGood wrote:
| The CAN bus, the network interface vehicle components use to
| communicate was, at least as of a few years ago, the source of
| basically infinite vulnerabilities.
|
| Add in over the air updates or worse, updated bluetooth or radio
| firmware and you find things like stopping a vehicle remotely at
| highway speeds[1]
|
| [1] https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbreaking-2015-jeep-
| hack...
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| The people behind that stunt were immediately hired by GM.
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| IIRC, many TPMS systems run as CAN over IP, basically giving
| unsecured network access to a car if it thinks it's talking to
| a TPMS. Granted that some/most these sensors typically have to
| be "paired" with a car using a scantool (sometimes), but IIRC,
| some are self-pairing creating a vulnerability where the legit
| sensor could be replaced with a hostile one. Also the
| possibilities of spoofing, sniffing, and/or packet injection
| seem real too.
| privatelypublic wrote:
| I know the receivers are often in a vulnerable position. But,
| on my 2008 era car- the code I've seen for SDR decoding is a
| broadcast MAC, pressure and a temp value.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| >IIRC, many TPMS systems run as CAN over IP,
|
| I've been in this industry for 20-some years not a single
| system I've ever seen operates like that.
|
| CAN over IP does not exist invehicles. IP over CAN doesn't
| exist at all. UDS over IP does, but this is automotive
| Ethernet and an entirely different discussion.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| I love when companies openly embrace their security
| vulnerabilities rather than hide behind them, _cough_ Kia
| monegator wrote:
| A good starter would have been running the keyfob data on a
| different CAN line than the one going into the headlights... you
| know, the one you can reach with your hand from the outside.
|
| Then we could also talk about encryption, but at least making it
| a tad more difficult to have physical access.
|
| Not that toyota is the only one. If you ever notice a car that
| has a reinforced grill protecting the front RADAR, or the rear
| lights... now you know why.
| DecentShoes wrote:
| That's great, but the writing is still on the wall if Toyota
| doesn't get serious about electric cars.
|
| With their current trajectory Toyota is headed at 1000mph
| directly towards being the next Blackberry, Kodak, Nokia or
| Blockbuster.
|
| I say this as someone who owned a Prius for 10 years and loved
| it, and have also driven their hydrogen car. The BZ4X is badly
| named overpriced garbage, not enough and not good enough. The
| clock is ticking and they have to act _yesterday_ to avert
| disaster and they 're sitting their twiddling their thumbs.
|
| Currently Tesla is the iPhone to Toyota's Nokia and they're going
| to have to work very hard very soon to turn that around or their
| company will die.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Why make electric cars when you can bribe politicians to tax
| EVs and promote hybrids?
| cenamus wrote:
| Are you talking about Toyota or every german automaker ;)
| nixass wrote:
| Or even US government? (by removing incentives)
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Removing incentives is not "taxing EVs", it's leveling
| the playing field. If EVs can't compete without the
| competition being tilted in their favor, they aren't up
| to scratch yet.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| If EV costs more you pay more sales tax / gst / vat.
|
| Also most places now tax EV registration with extra fee
| or per mile so you add fair share towards roads making
| hybrid TCO lower.
| breve wrote:
| Hybrids sell better.
|
| Toyota sells more cars than any other automaker. 2023 was a
| record sales year for Toyota. 2025 is looking like it will be
| another record year for them:
|
| https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-
| toyota...
| realusername wrote:
| I'd say the EU manufacturers are in an even worse position than
| Toyota as their electric lineup isn't great and they have
| massive reliability problems on both ICE and BEV cars unlike
| Toyota.
|
| Currently they only survive in the EU thanks to tarrifs on
| Chinese cars.
|
| And I would say the opposite about Tesla, they experienced the
| biggest selling drop of all brands combined, if there's one
| brand going to crash first, I'd bet on Tesla.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Can you elaborate on (or link to some resources on) EU
| manufacturer quality issues? I have a hunch I know what you
| mean but I'd like to know more.
| Lio wrote:
| Really? I think Renault are on a roll at the moment.
|
| The Renault 4, Renault 5 and Megan seem really competitive.
|
| The new Nissan Leaf (made in UK) also looks pretty good.
|
| VAG seem to have lost the plot ("let's replace all the
| controls with a small, janky touch system that leaks personal
| information to hackers") but their ID.7 isn't total crap.
|
| Comparing Renaults to the Chinese brands I've seen (MG and
| BYD) the Chinese brands were a bit cheaper but they really
| felt it with cheap interiors and uncomfortable seats. I'd
| rather pay a grand more and get a car I like.
| stavros wrote:
| I have a BYD Seal and it's by far the most luxurious and
| best quality car I've owned, and my previous car was a
| Mercedes. I don't know what you've tried, but it doesn't
| feel cheap at all
| Lio wrote:
| I only buy mass-market cars. I've looked at MG 4s, 5s and
| BYD Dolphins. I didn't rate any of them.
|
| I view all cars as depreciating liabilities and so have
| little interest in buy either Seal or its Mercedes
| equivalent.
| izacus wrote:
| ID.7 is the most sold EV model in EU so "not total crap" is
| an interesting definition. Other ID models are selling well
| too
| pxndx wrote:
| What's your source? it's the 5th in this ranking I found:
| https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/europes-best-
| sel...
| izacus wrote:
| What are you on about though? EU EV sales are through the
| roof and pretty much all brands now have good EV cars.
| irjustin wrote:
| It's weird right? I get that Nokia honestly couldn't see it
| coming, it was basically the first in recent history. Too much
| too fast, RIM included.
|
| But all the bigwigs currently in Toyota are the age to have
| seen and lived that transition. It's not like they're new to
| battery tech.
|
| And they say - wow look at that... nah, let's build hydrogen.
| LightBug1 wrote:
| Currently _EV 's are _ the iPhones to Toyota's Nokia and
| they're going to have to work very hard very soon to turn that
| around or their company will die.
|
| Fixed that for you. I give Tesla another 2-5 years before their
| number is up and they'll limp along and become another also
| ran.
|
| There's no way they can compete with what's to come and even
| what's happening now.
|
| I have some friends, who are definitely not HN readers or avid
| followers of the EV market, and they've already swapped out
| their Teslas for BYD. It didn't take much for them to make the
| move. And what's coming is already far beyond what Tesla have
| on the table.
|
| They had a good ride. And definitely should be credited with
| being the starting gun on one chapter of automotive revolution.
| But it's over for them (in the EV space). They know it too ...
| hence their attempted pivot to ... * insert flavour of the
| month*
| ssl232 wrote:
| The iPhone did everything the Nokia 3310 did, better. Electric
| cars do not (yet) do better some things hybrids do, such as
| being able to be fuelled with 400+ miles of range in 5 minutes.
|
| I'm nowhere near the point of wanting an electric car to
| replace my hybrid. The convenience of petrol and the cost of
| electricity is too high. High electricity costs aren't going to
| be fixed in my country any time soon so Toyota will continue to
| have a huge market here.
| stavros wrote:
| Just make sure you don't drive one, or you'll change your
| mind.
| iwontberude wrote:
| We've been driving them for over a decade now. They aren't
| new anymore, and they still aren't a panacea. There is this
| cool thing called car rental, it lets you use cars that
| aren't your own.
| stavros wrote:
| There's also this thing called reading comprehension, I
| don't know where you can rent it, but sometimes it does
| help on online forums.
| iwontberude wrote:
| There's also a thing called repeating a joke format for
| effect. And it's not a very good effect.
| stavros wrote:
| I can see that.
| iwontberude wrote:
| Wait was your original comment being sarcastic? Because
| if so, spot on. They really do be speaking like that.
| discordance wrote:
| Very little maintenance is one big feature. After 3 years I
| have only had to change the tires, air filter and windscreen
| wipers.
|
| For long road trips I've never had an issue stopping to
| rest/stretch while fast charging for between 15-30 mins.
| SirHumphrey wrote:
| Sure, but we are talking about a Toyota so there is (at
| least in my experience) not that much maintenance to begin
| with.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Toyotas may need less repairs than other vehicles, but of
| course they have the same maintenance schedules and costs
| as other vehicles.
|
| Compare periodic oil changes, spark plug changes,
| ignition coils, stolen catalytic converters, exhaust
| system, PCV system, air and fuel filters, brake pads,
| transmission fluid, and other ICE maintenance items with
| the electric drivetrain. At 120,000 km I've replaced the
| tires once and the brake pads look brand new. That's it.
| Even the windshield wipers are still in good shape for
| some reason.
| theoreticalmal wrote:
| Oil filters and brakes are on the easier spectrum of
| maintainenance, but I'd still rather not do them if I
| don't have to (which with my EV, I won't)
| tonmoy wrote:
| Most EVs these days can recharge 300ish miles in 15 mins, but
| 99% of the time I don't even have to drive anywhere to refuel
| as it get recharged overnight in my garage. EVs are waaay
| more efficient in terms of MPGe so at least for me it is less
| half in terms of cost to refuel compared to petrol not even
| considering the external cost of emitting CO2
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| 15 minutes is still not as good as the 2 minutes it takes
| to fill up a gas tank. Electric cars just aren't there yet
| for long drives, though they are great for everyday driving
| around town.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| The iPhone actually had way worse battery life than basically
| any Nokia. It's a great comparison. People happily traded
| more features for having to plug their phone in every night.
| numpad0 wrote:
| iPhone also had same modem as everyone. It wasn't a Wi-Fi
| device, it was a phone-computer hybrid.
|
| Compared to that, EVs feel more like Wi-Fi or WiMAX device
| that owners would say theirs are daily drivable but only
| make Discord calls. Overall situation more closely resemble
| PDAs _before_ iPhone.
| nebula8804 wrote:
| Don't they have a RAV4 EV coming Fall 26? Thats one of their
| top models. With new generation design that looks nice! They
| seem pretty serious if they are putting their signature model
| into EV production. Not to mention their other EVs launching in
| 2026.
|
| Have Tesla released any new models? The hot thing that people
| are waiting for right now is not really a new model, its the
| return of the turn stalk. I mean I get that they sell well
| because there is lack of options but if you take a step back,
| this is clown company behavior.
| nixass wrote:
| > That's great, but the writing is still on the wall if Toyota
| doesn't get serious about electric cars.
|
| Toyota is following national direction where natural resources
| are scarce, including generating electricity. It's actually
| government's idea to chase hydrogen as a viable alternative to
| dyno juice.
|
| >With their current trajectory Toyota is headed at 1000mph
| directly towards being the next Blackberry, Kodak, Nokia or
| Blockbuster.
|
| Lol absolutely not. Toyota is well positioned with their
| hybrids while also having EV in the pipeline. Have in mind that
| great majority of world population has no viable means to
| charge their cars either reliably, cheaply or at all. Hybrids
| make great sense in great majority of use cases.
|
| > Currently Tesla is the iPhone to Toyota's Nokia and they're
| going to have to work very hard very soon to turn that around
| or their company will die.
|
| Oh FFS
| jansan wrote:
| > That's great, but the writing is still on the wall if Toyota
| doesn't get serious about electric cars.
|
| It seems they know what they are doing. Toyota is a very
| profitable car manufacturer, with profit in 2024 more than
| Tesla and Volkswagen combined. Unlike Nissan, the maker of the
| best selling EV of all time, who is struggling very hard.
| decimalenough wrote:
| Tesla sells nearly as many cars in a _quarter_ (497,099 in Q3
| 2025) as the Leaf managed in its _entire lifetime_ (577,000
| between 2010 and 2022).
| hopelite wrote:
| Is the hating Tesla tantrum over?
|
| That being said, you can't really compare the sales of all
| of Teslas to the sales of one specific form factor/model
| with any kind of seriousness. Nor do I think it's a fair
| comparison to compare Tesla that has parted on various hype
| patterns over the years to tap the zealots into even
| becoming their free advertisement and marketing departments
| not unlike how Apple fanboy cult people at least used to
| be. Toyota is a mature, reasonable enterprise whose sales
| are orders of magnitude larger than Tesla's and there are
| many people's lives dependent on being reasonable when
| shifting things, not "disrupt" in a typical tech bro
| narcissistic way.
|
| For context Tesla has roughly 2 million sales with 125,000
| employees, Toyota has 11 million sales with 385,000
| employees. I assume I don't need to do the math for you.
|
| And that's without going into the various battery issues
| and the now conflicting electricity interests between EV
| and AI.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| 95% (actual percentage) of Teslas sold are Model 3 or
| Model Y, so one can cut that sales figure in half and
| still reasonably compare to the sales of another model.
|
| >And that's without going into the various battery issues
| and the now conflicting electricity interests between EV
| and AI.
|
| I do not understand what this means. Isn't the same gas
| used to power vehicles used to power turbines that
| provide electricity?
| rogerrogerr wrote:
| The Toyota number is very misleading because dealership
| employees don't have Toyota badges; they have Dave's
| Hometown Stealership badges. Tesla store employees have
| Tesla badges.
|
| You're counting customer-facing employees for Tesla and
| leaving them out for Toyota.
| jansan wrote:
| I stand corrected, the Leaf figure was wrong. Nevertheless,
| Toyota is very profitable despite (or because?) it does not
| sell a significant number of EVs. Margins on EVs are
| currently extremely low or even negative, and that is
| hurting EV manufaturers more than ICE manufacturers.
| defcontracter2 wrote:
| Toyota won't build BEVs in scale, nor will most of the Japanese
| brands. They can't.
|
| Japan can't build the batteries for BEV's at the necessary
| scale for global production. Yes China controls lithium but
| they also control some 95% of global battery grade graphite
| production, and anywhere from 60% to 90% production of
| manganese, cobalt, and nickle. Not to mention all of the
| components that those produce like the anodes and cathodes.
|
| And the big problem with that is the Japanese genuinely fears
| there's going to be a war in the pacific. A big one. Fearful
| enough that Japanese government allocated $320 billion USD to
| be spent from 2024 to 2029 specifically to turn the JSDF into a
| proper military, and establish and sustain a new domestic
| military industrial complex.
|
| The main flashpoint the Japanese are afraid of is a Chinese
| military attack on Taiwan, which leads two major possibilities.
| Either the US intervenes with the military, or it does not.
|
| If the former, then China has to find a way to take away as
| many of the US Navy's advantages as they can. One of which is
| the major resupply facilities for the US 7th fleet in Yokosuka.
| Push comes to shove then I have little doubt that the Chinese
| will launch missiles into the Japanese harbors to deny the USN
| and JMSDF capability of repair and rearming via kinetic means.
| But I'm certain they'd prefer to pressure the Japanese into
| reducing or removing the US presence from Japanese docks.
|
| Pressure like say being able to potentially cripple 10% of
| Japanese GDP that's in it's automotive sector if hypothetically
| Japan was dependent on Chinese exports of BEV batteries. Not
| exactly with precedent either; China tried to cut off Japan
| from rare earth metals once (admittedly that backfired on
| China) and China's recently put on export license restrictions
| on graphite.
|
| Like it or not, the Japanese know it, the Chinese know it, and
| even the US is fully aware of it. The US is right now building
| new US navy bases in the Philippines just in case Japanese
| harbors become denied to the USN. Also why the Japanese are
| building up it's capability to strike not just far off Chinese
| naval assets but potentially into the Chinese mainland as well;
| the first an order for 500 US made Tomahawk missiles are
| already being installed right now on JMSDF destroyers.
|
| On the other hands, if it's the former and the US chooses not
| to intervene... well it's gonna get very lonely for Japan out
| there all by itself.
|
| You know the really sad part though? The Japanese were
| relenting a bit because they signed the US Japan Critical
| Minerals Agreement in 2023 which in effect promised no undue
| burden for the Japanese to get access to critical minerals.
| They just didn't dive head in because it was signed under the
| Biden administration.
|
| Given the Trump administration's open hostility to BEV's, his
| erratic trade policies, and his open musing about withdrawing
| from mutual defense agreements (normally NATO but not a stretch
| to think he'd extend that to the Japanese US one as well I
| don't think they've made the wrong choice. Or rather more
| accurate that it's the least risky choice out of a bunch of
| awful choices.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| China is in the process of crippling 10% of Japan's GDP in
| automotive, just by building EVs and EV components and
| selling them to other nearby countries where Toyota (and
| other Japanese brands) currently dominate and hae vchosen not
| to compete in this new format. So we don't need Tom Clancy to
| generate scenarios where this will be bad for Japan.
| decimalenough wrote:
| Exactly. Look no further than Thailand, long a bastion of
| both Japanese car manufacturing and Japanese cars locally:
|
| https://www.ft.com/content/e33a2cbf-9a7e-4964-8914-c129d294
| 7...
|
| The absolute numbers are still small, but as momentum
| shifts to EVs, Japan's market share will collapse.
| prodipto81 wrote:
| Got
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Tesla is not the manufacturer to beat.
| ozgrakkurt wrote:
| EVs are trash compared to equal price gas car. For example if
| you compare camry with a similarly priced EV, BYD or Tesla
| doesn't have quality/reliability at the same level
| floundy wrote:
| This is hilarious projection of your preferences and market
| predictions onto every other consumer.
|
| I bought a 2024 Toyota hybrid. I don't care about electric
| vehicles and won't bother reinvestigating them until 2034 at
| the earliest. I don't see the problems with electric vehicles
| being solved anytime soon in the US.
| octagons wrote:
| Toyota moves more slowly than many other brands because of
| their company culture/philosophy.
|
| To your point about BEVs, Toyota started producing BEV
| batteries at their plant in North Carolina this year:
| https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc
| breve wrote:
| > _That 's great, but the writing is still on the wall if
| Toyota doesn't get serious about electric cars._
|
| This sentiment doesn't match the practical reality. Toyota is
| the best selling automaker in the world.
|
| In 2011 Toyota sold 7.9 million cars. In 2023 Toyota sold 11.2
| million, a record sales year. It looks like 2025 might set a
| new sales record for Toyota:
|
| https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyota...
|
| Toyota isn't getting the car business wrong. Toyota is getting
| it right.
|
| BEVs will make up a greater percentage of Toyota's sales as
| time goes on. The notion Toyota somehow doesn't understand the
| car business is just false.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| Pwn2own?
| feraldidactic wrote:
| Hack-a-Toyotathon.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| The big security issue is that cars should not phone home, Toyota
| please patch
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| My brother had his car (a sleek AUDI) stolen in front of his
| house. He left the key in the entry hall, and someone extended
| the range.
|
| Are current electronics (the consumer ones) good enough at scale
| to limit the time the round-trip car-key-car takes?
| addaon wrote:
| UWB, used by CCC keys (iOS and Android; UWB might be optional
| for Android?) definitely is -- TOF distance precision in the
| inches.
| octagons wrote:
| FYI - the inclusion of UWB (specifically the FiRa consortium
| secure ranging standard) was not part of the CCC Digital Key
| specification until v4.0.0, which only left its draft state
| very recently, at least in terms of automotive security
| standards.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| I think a fundamental problem is that keys aren't security
| forward compatible - break the keys and you've broken an entire
| generation (or more) of cars.
|
| The only solutions I can see are software based keying and a
| mobile app or legally enforced security guarantees.
|
| But the car manufacturers don't give a fuck if your 3 years and
| one day old car gets stolen. You move to the next competitor,
| only for the same to happen in just over three years time.
| Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
| mlrtime wrote:
| >The only solutions I can see are software based keying and a
| mobile app or legally enforced security guarantees.
|
| Wouldn't this require the phone to be trusted and not run
| unsigned software?
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| The software part is a solved problem - this is how the web
| is secured. There would be an exchange of keys with the
| car, and done.
|
| This does not solve the problem of the timing (but the
| sibling comment explained that this one has a solution)
| omoikane wrote:
| I think the problem here is that traditional keys expect
| physical security, and this expectation is broken because key
| fobs are now wireless and thieves have range extenders. I
| thought the best practice here is to store the wireless
| capable key fobs inside Faraday cages when they are not in
| use to restore physical security.
| thelastgallon wrote:
| Electric cars are theft proof. No car thief would steal an
| electric car.
| thelastgallon wrote:
| I don't understand the downvotes. I am just curious about
| whats the rationale. If there is a counterpoint, please
| downvote by all means, but make the point so I learn how to
| think better!
| slater wrote:
| No explanation or elaboration on your claim that electric
| vehicles are theft-proof
| thelastgallon wrote:
| I thought it was obvious. Charging (scoping just to US)
| has some difficulties. First, you need to know how
| charging works (110V vs 240V vs DC fast charging) and
| also understand what kind of charging the car you are
| stealing supports: https://www.power-sonic.com/ev-
| charging-connector-types. Also understand the various
| apps that are needed for different cars and how they
| work. The thief most likely may not have charging at home
| or at work (if they have a place of work, I'd assume they
| are not working at FAANGs, which have 2 - 3 EV chargers
| at each location). Then, when they are chased by cops,
| etc, they will eventually run out of charge. They can't
| do a quick pitstop. When they are charging, lets say at a
| Tesla station, the car may be electronically identified.
| But, most importantly, the media instills a fear of
| electricity (you can't find electricity anywhere except
| these things called EV charging stations and there are
| very few charging stations) and electric cars. Everyone
| is worried about range (range anxiety).
| joshuahaglund wrote:
| You're assuming so much that is wrong. Thieves don't know
| how to use technology?
|
| They can't use a charger? (I imagine they'd wire one to
| an also stolen generator)
|
| Then you assume they're gonna be in a car chase? That's
| not how most stolen vehicles end up.
|
| Afaik most stolen vehicles either get quickly parted out
| at a chop shop, or are sent across a border (driven
| across borders or container shipped to another country),
| or used for other crimes, or they're joy rided around
| then abandoned. Basically all things you could easily do
| on a partial charge with a modern car mechanics skills.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I am curious if any Teslas have ever been stolen by being able
| to duplicate the Tesla key.
|
| Is app + Bluetooth or the NFC cards inherently more secure than
| traditional key fobs?
| lostlogin wrote:
| How does that work?
|
| Once they have driven 100m what happens?
| sublimefire wrote:
| Car companies would benefit from hiring thieves in the dark web.
| There were always toolkits on sale as well. So they could just
| investigate what is being done to steal the cars and patch it. I
| suppose a good bounty program would help as well as the tech
| savvy thieves would have a choice to get a bug bounty instead of
| ganging up with other criminals. Sort of divide and conquer.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Automotive Pentesting has been an industry for years [0][1][2]
|
| [0] - https://www.praetorian.com/services/automotive-
| penetration-t...
|
| [1] - https://plaxidityx.com/
|
| [2] - https://autocrypt.io/
| Theodores wrote:
| The legacy automakers have been cramming ever more ECUs into
| their cars, at a considerable cost expense. Tesla did something
| different with the big screen and one 'big computer' rather than
| a bevvy of ECUs. This appears to be the design pattern going
| forward, as evidenced by VW's investment in Rivian, where they
| also go for the 'big computer' approach.
|
| It seems to me that the security of Tesla cars is pretty good,
| compared to that of the legacy automakers. You can't hotwire a
| Tesla.
|
| Securing one computer is relatively easy when compared to the
| challenge of securing a veritable forest of hardware, as made by
| numerous suppliers.
|
| Regarding the way that general attacks on car security systems
| happen, something has gone wrong with how all of it has been
| implemented. RFID works fine in many other applications, but they
| are doing it 'back to front' with automotive and it is just too
| easy to hack. I am not even sure it has been for features people
| really want. Remotely opening the car before you get in it has
| convenience value but we got in trouble with that.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| You can't hotwire a Tesla, but the manufacturer can, and can
| stop you from driving it too. I am not sure on the whole I
| prefer that option.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| All the other new car seem like they are coming with
| integrated modems also, so I presume they have the same
| capability of stopping you from driving the car too.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Wasn't Tesla basically a Toyota until recently? The big dash
| computer was just a car equivalent of Nest thermostat, at least
| when I looked at it, it could have been an Arduino with a key
| cylinder and the car would work fine.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| There's 2 things when it comes to security:
|
| Companies are responsible for their own security. You cannot try
| to hack them without their permission. Security researchers who
| do something like test the security of a car without the
| permission of the car manufacturer (like in this post) are
| committing a felony.
|
| Also, companies are not responsible (liable) for their own poor
| security. If they do something like leak the private data of half
| the nation--shrug--what can you do?
|
| How convenient for companies. It's literally a matter of national
| security; our national security is made worse by this status-quo,
| but at least companies aren't bothered by unwanted security
| researchers.
|
| We need to pick a lane.
|
| If companies want to be solely responsible for their own
| security, then they should also be solely reliable for any
| damages done by their own poor security.
|
| Or, we can recognize that security is really hard and make it a
| team effort and setup laws to protect security researchers, and
| then special "events" wouldn't be needed for security research;
| anyone could test the security systems at any time, and
| especially people would be able to test the security of devices
| they own.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| > Companies are responsible for their own security. You cannot
| try to hack them without their permission. Security researchers
| who do something like test the security of a car without the
| permission of the car manufacturer (like in this post) are
| committing a felony.
|
| Not a single sentence here is correct.
| bigfudge wrote:
| I think you need to expand here. My understanding is that
| there is a lot of law you can fall foul of pen testing and
| sharing vulns on products of companies you don't work for.
| jfyi wrote:
| It's phrased weirdly, but the op is describing an idealized
| status quo as would be seen from a corporate standpoint. It
| was meant to contradict itself and thus:
|
| >We need to pick a lane.
|
| I imagine op would likely agree it isn't actually that
| monotoned and this was done for rhetorical purposes.
| ycombinatrix wrote:
| >Security researchers who do something like test the security
| of a car without the permission of the car manufacturer (like
| in this post) are committing a felony.
|
| citation needed
| Buttons840 wrote:
| > No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
| effectively controls access to a work
|
| Source: DMCA: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
|
| I'm sure that spending a few hundred thousand dollars on
| lawyers _might_ find a legal loophole, but I wouldn 't count
| on it.
|
| Why is it illegal to break the encryption of video game
| consoles? Whatever the answer is, the same can be applied to
| breaking the encryption of a car.
| godelski wrote:
| It's not clear DMCA applies in this setting. I'm neither a
| lawyer nor a "hacker", but reading through the whole page
| you linked I can't figure out what part implies cars are
| covered? If they were, then it seems like it would put
| mechanics at best in a gray area. > Why is
| it illegal to break the encryption of video game consoles?
|
| Is it? I know it is illegal to strip a game and upload it
| to the internet. But is it illegal to save your own digital
| copy? I was under the impression that this violates terms
| of use, but isn't illegal. That the legality was focused
| around distribution.
|
| IIRC Sony lost that court case where the Navy turned their
| Playstations into a supercomputer.
|
| I'm not trying to argue, but I'm trying to state my
| understanding so someone can better help me understand. I
| really do want to know how many crimes I've committed lol
| makeitdouble wrote:
| It would need to be handle significantly different from
| lock picking, which is legal. I assume one could craft an
| argument to shove DMCA in it, but that doesn't sound clear
| cut.
|
| To your point, would most researchers want to spend lawyer
| money to test that ? Surely not.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Tangent but I have a 2016 Toyota 4Runner. Great car and fits my
| family and needs perfectly. The key fob broke so I needed to get
| a replacement, I got a blank and had a locksmith cut and program
| the blank. He must have not done it right because it worked and
| then I got stranded cause it must have lost its pair to the car
| or something. Nothing wrong with the vehicle, the engine wouldn't
| start because of the key. I do road trips through the desert SW
| and other remote places, if I have the key I need the car to
| start no matter what. I really don't want my keys to require a
| battery either. I wish there was a way to bypass the rfid/BLE or
| whatever it is.
| vigilans wrote:
| Did you get a genuine key? I never had one fail on me.
|
| The immobilizer is the single best piece of technology for
| preventing car theft. If you create a backdoor for bypassing
| it, you'll end up like Hyundai/Kia which decided to sell cars
| without the immobilizer in recent years and which have turned
| into a joke in the minds of potential customers.
|
| It does not require a battery in most cases and is separate
| from the keeloq system that controls your car's doors.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| The Stellantis systems I've worked on have a nice feature
| that there is a battery for the proximity use, that you can
| keep the key in your pocket and press the button to run the
| car, as long as the key is within the four or five proximity
| sensors you are fine.
|
| When that battery dies, you can press the directly to the
| start button and it uses a "receiver powered transmitter"
| RFID close proximity to start and run the vehicle.
|
| Most people don't know this, so when that battery dies they
| panic and suffer.
| giobox wrote:
| This technique of pressing the dead key to the starter
| button works for quite a lot of brands, not just Stellantis
| vehicles. Always worth trying if you are in a "keyless" car
| with a dead key fob battery.
|
| In my experience virtually everything made in last 15 years
| will either support this RFID backup or have a spare
| physical key hidden inside the keyless fob.
|
| Lots of them will even let you press the dead key against
| some part of the exterior to unlock the doors too.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| What is funny to me is that before the proximity and push
| https start... the keys had RFID and an antenna at the
| lock cylinder anyhow.
|
| They just left that same antenna in place (in Chrysler+
| anyhow, called SKIM) now as a backup instead of the
| primary.
| FunkyDuckling wrote:
| for my 2016 Mazda, the keys do not need a battery to operate.
|
| you instead need to hold the fob up to the start button and it
| will work passively, rather than just being in the car
| normally. Glad they still give manuals with cars as I had to
| learn that without service.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| There are three systems to the key, the doors and remote
| start, the "passive entry" which requires the battery, and
| the backup RFID you're talking about.
| kakacik wrote:
| If you even rarely get into situations you describe, saving on
| a freakin' key fob and not going via official dealership is
| supremely... not smart.
|
| What you describe would be exactly reason #1 I would
| immediately say to anybody on topic of why not saving
| desperately on such a thing, despite never being in such
| situation myself.
|
| Sometimes learning from other's mistakes should be enough. No,
| mostly it should be enough.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Difficulty: dealership replacement keys are like $500/each
| believe it or not.
| slicktux wrote:
| You can disable the RFID by manipulating the right bits in the
| ECU's anti-theft EEPROM. Something that's done with imported
| engines from Japan for sports car engine swap; they usually
| come with wire harnesses and ECU but no key. I know how its
| done for the imported 3SGTE engine ECU... I'm sure it's not too
| different for the 2013 4Runner. Though, Toyota makes some newer
| ECUs nearly impossible to open without damaging the circuit
| board and anti-theft bypass requires physical access to the
| EEPROM.
|
| Edit: RFID should not need battery...you can reprogram your own
| key by jumpering the correct OBD2 pins..process takes about 20
| minutes...
| collingreen wrote:
| Get ready for key subscriptions!
| OutputRiff wrote:
| Or we could make Toyotas tunable like many other brands. I would
| love to tune my Tundra like I could tune my GTI. The mid 2010s
| after market super charged Tundras were so cool!
| sviruz wrote:
| The laptop in the second picture looks very nice. Thinkpad?
| Anyone knows what model this is?
| wslh wrote:
| X1 Carbon? [1][2]
|
| [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/review-latest-
| lenovo...
|
| [2] https://www.synaptics.com/company/news/selene-lenovo-
| power-b...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-10-04 23:02 UTC)