[HN Gopher] Study confirms that pianists can shape piano timbre ...
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Study confirms that pianists can shape piano timbre through touch
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 10 points
Date : 2025-10-01 21:15 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com)
| ofalkaed wrote:
| I am guessing the reason this went 100 years without being proven
| is because it was an argument against the player piano and not an
| actual question that needed proving? Any competent pianist can
| demonstrate that they do this and it is the reason the piano
| became the dominant keyboard instrument.
| analog31 wrote:
| Also because loud. Most modern instruments have been evolving
| towards louder and louder variants.
| dinkblam wrote:
| What are you saying? i can't hear you!
| Rochus wrote:
| > _The study scientifically confirmed that professional pianists
| can manipulate timbre mid-performance through subtle key movement
| differences._
|
| I'm a trained pianist myself and I have a PhD in science. The
| "timbre" is relative to the speed a key is pressed and the
| position of three pedals of a grand piano. But this insight is
| trivial and doesn't require a "scientific study".
|
| The fundamental understanding of piano mechanics is well-known:
| once the hammer escapes from the action mechanism (just before
| striking the string), the final hammer velocity is the only
| physical parameter that determines the string vibration and
| resulting tone. This is known as the "single variable hypothesis"
| and has been supported by acoustic physics research. The final
| hammer velocity is thus the only physical parameter controlling
| the intensity and the sound of an isolated piano tone,
| independent of the intrinsic acceleration pattern of the key.
|
| The study's claim about "acceleration at escapement" is
| particularly problematic from a physics standpoint, since
| escapement is precisely the moment when the hammer detaches from
| the key mechanism and begins free flight to the string. What
| matters after escapement is the hammer's velocity during that
| free flight, not how it got there. The study does not clearly
| explain the acoustic mechanism by which different key
| accelerations would produce different string vibrations if final
| hammer velocity is controlled.
| smj-edison wrote:
| Yeah, @Rochus is right. Once the action has passed the
| escapement, its _entire point_ is that you lose all control,
| else you 'd get thudding, reversing the point of the
| fortepiano's innovation.
|
| That's not to say us pianists have other tricks up our sleeves
| though. Staccato, slightly delayed playing, damper pedal (which
| is not just binary but continuous), slower release of key
| (because you can slowly apply the damper giving it a slight
| ringing effect), tempo changes, and other techniques get you
| quite a broad range of feeling. It doesn't however mean that
| timbre is orthogonal to volume--they are coupled by velocity.
|
| Also, this post doesn't go into methods, so I worry about lack
| of ABX testing, whether it's a single note or a piece, whether
| they could see the pianist, etc. Perhaps they addressed that in
| the paper that they'll publish...
|
| Edit: another thought: why is this even using subjective
| listeners? You can just measure velocity and run an FFT to see
| whether they can make a timbre separate from volume and
| velocity.
| pygy_ wrote:
| This is probably negligible, but the hammer is not perfectly
| rigid. The tension in the stem at the time the hammer escapes
| and subsequent oscillations could also play a role.
| dinkblam wrote:
| > this insight is trivial and doesn't require a "scientific
| study".
|
| isn't this the case for many studies in the past decade? just
| confirming what we've known all along
| an_aparallel wrote:
| News just in...bassists can alter timbre by touch!? I agree,
| can these scientists seriously go and do some real work? What
| an embarassment.
| calf wrote:
| It seems acc-escape is measuring how hard the pianist is
| exerting their fingers/arms, which plausibly indirectly affects
| the coordination and style of sound that they play, hence the
| appearance of a different timbre.
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| My personal suspicion as to how this stuff matters for the
| timbre of a piano is that there are maybe two mechanisms aside
| from the obvious one (velocity of the hammer):
|
| 1. Subtle movements of the damper, which is linearly linked to
| the key. You can hear this interference with the string if you
| get the string loudly and don't completely release the
| key/pedal.
|
| 2. Some second-order effects that alter the post-escapement
| flight of the hammer. There is still some friction in there,
| and most piano actions have a lot of wood parts that can flex a
| little.
|
| I sort of doubt #2 there, honestly.
|
| Another thing you learn as a pianist is that literally nothing
| matters for the sound except what happens at the point of
| contact between the hammer (and the damper) and the string. If
| you want to unravel piano timbre, you should worry about that.
| raincole wrote:
| > But this insight is trivial and doesn't require a "scientific
| study".
|
| In my opinion, the insight is this:
|
| > express in piano playing were perceived as intended by both
| pianists and musically untrained individuals
|
| Obviously pianists have known this for more than a century. But
| do average listeners hear the same "thing"? It's a question
| worth asking.
| 4d4m wrote:
| Lol you know within milliseconds how to adjust timbre between key
| depress speed, sustain pressure, and pedal adjustment to get the
| timbre you want
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| Isn't this obvious? Why was this a study? Did you think a hundred
| years of pianists and piano teachers were just bullshitting you?
| pimlottc wrote:
| The purpose of most studies like this is not simply to
| establish a binary yes or no, but to measure, quantify and
| explain how something works in more detail than is currently
| known.
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ziofill wrote:
| To be honest, as a pianist and physicist I'm still sceptical.
| The only thing you can influence at a mechanical keyboard is
| the speed with which the hammer hits the strings because by the
| time contact happens the escapement mechanism has removed the
| connection between hammer and key. One cannot influence its
| weight, momentum, angle, etc. So if all there is is a single
| variable (speed of the hammer), I find it hard to believe that
| one can change timbre independently on its own.
| userbinator wrote:
| You don't even have to know how to play a piano, just be
| allowed to touch one, to realise that hitting the keys
| differently will produce slightly different sounds.
| musictubes wrote:
| Coming from a synth background I assumed that any timbre
| variation that pianists can achieve came about via envelope
| manipulation. That and possibly volume related overtone
| production I suppose.
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