[HN Gopher] How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized
___________________________________________________________________
How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized
Author : nashashmi
Score : 667 points
Date : 2025-10-02 09:23 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cnn.com)
| iberator wrote:
| Reminder: Only right wing supporters of Iaraeli Likud party
| actually support genocide going on. Literally half of Israeli
| citizens hate Likud and Natanyahu.
|
| ps. Interesting trivia: Mahmoud Abbas (President of the
| Palestinian West Bank) and FATAH militia also are against Hamas.
| They always have been:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
|
| Nothing is black or white.
| kombine wrote:
| This is a popular idea in the Israeli propaganda. Israelis like
| to say that they hate Netanyahu, but in reality, majority of
| Israeli Jews fully align with his policies towards
| Palestinians, and multiple polls confirm this.
| https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-08-05/ty-article/.p...
| boxed wrote:
| "Fully align" is not supported by your reference.
|
| The massive demonstrations in the street seem to counter your
| narrative though.
| pydry wrote:
| The demonstrations are about his power grabs. They have 0
| to do with the genocide. On that topic most Israelis are
| not against him. It is, in fact, what is _keeping_ him in
| power and why he wants this war so badly.
|
| ~15% of Israelis believe that a terrorist who shot up a
| mosque (literally all he did) is a national hero.
|
| It shouldnt be that that hard to imagine that most of the
| rest are willing to look the other way in the event of a
| genocide against the same untermensch.
| tdeck wrote:
| More evidence of this in a poll from earlier this year.
|
| https://archive.is/nNzq4
|
| (It's an archive link because the original is paywalled).
|
| > Nearly half (47 percent) of respondents agreed that
| "when conquering an enemy city, the Israel Defense Forces
| should act as the Israelites did in Jericho under
| Joshua's command - killing all its inhabitants."
| nashashmi wrote:
| "Here's a challenge - find me just one article in the
| mainstream media that calls for the de-radicalization of
| Israeli society. I'll save you the effort - you can't!"
|
| https://youtu.be/lHuUJTPhN0A
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > Israelis like to say that they hate Netanyahu, but in
| reality, majority of Israeli Jews fully align with his
| policies towards Palestinians, and multiple polls confirm
| this. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-08-05/ty-
| article/.p...
|
| There tends to be a lot more nuance[0] when it comes to
| polling results like these, the reality is that opinions
| amongst Israelis vary quite a lot. There are also a lot of
| problems with organizations like the UN historically wildly
| misrepresenting the food situation[1] which are likely to
| make Israelis question the accuracy of many of these
| starvation reports, especially from organizations that have
| historically made many highly inaccurate claims. UN backed
| IPC reports like those cited in the CNN article likewise have
| serious credibility issues as well[2], additionally there are
| extremely biased individuals like Michael Fakhri(the UN's
| special rapporteur on the right to food) cited in the CNN
| article that even publish comic books with some rather overt
| antisemitic tropes[3].
|
| [0] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-06-04/ty-article-
| opinio...
|
| [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-
| mistak...
|
| [2] https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-sky-news-fabricated-
| u-n-...
|
| [3] https://unwatch.org/legal-analysis-of-un-food-rapporteur-
| mic...
| tsimionescu wrote:
| This equivocation is absurd. Literally every international
| aid organization is saying the same thing - and even a few
| Israeli ones are now recognizing the genocide in Gaza. The
| fact that Israel, far from sending "large amounts of aid",
| has, in fact, systematically blocked aid to Gaza was
| recognized even by the US government. The US even resorted
| to building a pier to send their own aid in.
|
| Edit: looking at the claims more specifically, this one is
| particularly easy to debunk:
|
| > even publish comic books with some rather overt
| antisemitic trope
|
| The supposed "antisemitic trope" is an image of a person
| holding a cracked globe. The blog post implies that this is
| supposed to be an image representing the antisemitic
| "masters of the world" trope. In fact, the image represents
| the UN rapporteur himself looking at how the lack of
| international reaction to Israel's crimes has left a crack
| in the UN-led rules-based world order.
| NebulaChaser92 wrote:
| Reminder: The US does support the genocide. Both the
| Republicans and the Democrats.
| impomura wrote:
| majority of Israeli keep supporting IDF policies, shame on them
| tdeck wrote:
| This is nonsense, Israel's center right "opposition" won't even
| acknowledge the genocide, how can they be against it?
| fergie wrote:
| Moderate Israelis are the only people who have the power to
| peacefully defuse the situation.
| danielbenzvi1 wrote:
| Moderates in Israel have shrunk because for decades, every
| attempt at compromise seemed to end in more violence rather
| than peace. From the Oslo years and the Second Intifada, to
| the Gaza withdrawal and repeated rocket wars, many Israelis
| came to believe that "giving ground" only brought terror
| closer to their homes. The sense is that moderation was
| tried, failed, and cost lives.
|
| On top of that, politics and demographics shifted rightward,
| and October 7th reinforced the belief that peace is not
| realistic in the near term. For many Israelis, moderation no
| longer feels like a safe or responsible option- it feels like
| a risk their families can't afford.
| dariosalvi78 wrote:
| I wish this were true, but it looks like that even if Natanyahu
| has little support (mostly because of corruption), the genocide
| is well accepted by israeli public
|
| https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/poll-show-most-jew...
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| Opposition to Netanyahu inside Israel is almost entirely about
| domestic issues (like judicial reform) and the fact that he
| refuses to accept any negotiated deal to get the hostages back.
| Relatively few Israelis care about what he's doing to the
| Palestinians.
|
| Israeli society is deeply complicit in the mass killing and
| starvation in Gaza. The IDF is a citizen army. There haven't
| been mass refusals or resistance. It's not just Netanyahu.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Does Israel have a government structure that allows for a
| counter-majoritarian government?
|
| In the US, we do... due to the structure of the Senate and
| Electoral College, low population states wield outsize
| influence on national politics. This goes as far as allowing
| the election of a president with <50% national support. Add in
| political gerrymandering (setting electrical districts to
| constrain the influence of certain demographics), and we have a
| national government that's opposed to policies that have wide
| support across the population in general.
| tt_dev wrote:
| Thats eye opening
| rubzah wrote:
| There is simply no excuse for blocking the entry of food into a
| region wholesale. For that alone they should, at the very least,
| be an outcast in the international community. But here we are.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| That they have the backing and blessing of the US government is
| the counter-argument to this. The US can almost unilaterally
| end this war if they want to.
| JohnFen wrote:
| How is that a counter-argument?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| US has a lot of both soft and hard power globally. If you
| don't treat their puppet state with deference (and _do_
| treat it as an outcast), you can face consequences. The
| current US admin is using this as a stick against its own
| citizens, even.
| JohnFen wrote:
| OK, but I still don't see how that's a counterargument to
| the proposition that "There is simply no excuse for
| blocking the entry of food into a region wholesale."
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Oh, I reacted to GP's entire comment, not just the first
| sentence.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _US can almost unilaterally end this war if they want to_
|
| Almost but not quite.
| bdangubic wrote:
| US cannot end anything cause Israel fully controls USA
| (especially this administration) so this statement is like
| saying Malta can stop the war in Ukraine. You should by now
| know who is Boss is who is subordinate
| dataflow wrote:
| The claim I've heard them make is that the food aid is making
| it in, but being stolen by Hamas so that it can be resold at
| markup. How do you convince people that believe this that it
| isn't true (or is irrelevant)?
| abdulhaq wrote:
| even if it was true, and the charities say it is not, would
| that make it OK to starve the people of Gaza?
| ndiddy wrote:
| If that was true, wouldn't the best course of action be to
| let as much aid as possible into Gaza to flood the market
| rather than restricting the flow (therefore increasing
| prices) like Israel has been doing?
| magicalhippo wrote:
| > stolen by Hamas
|
| And/or the Israel-backed ISIS groups[1][2].
|
| [1]: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sytu2q1mel
|
| [2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-
| armi...
| viccis wrote:
| Hamas actually cleaned house of a couple of the leaders of
| these gangs recently.
| monocasa wrote:
| Would reporting from the NYT citing Israeli military
| officials saying that this didn't happen on any notable scale
| help convince people?
|
| No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military
| Officials Say
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-
| un...
| dlubarov wrote:
| The UN's own data (https://app.un2720.org/tracking) shows
| 86,531 pallets were intercepted, while only 26,772 pallets
| arrived at their intended destination.
|
| We don't know many of the interceptions Hamas was behind,
| but that isn't really important.
| monocasa wrote:
| > We don't know much many of the interceptions Hamas was
| behind, but that isn't really important.
|
| Sure it is when Israel is funding other groups that are
| known for stealing aid. It changes the entire narrative.
|
| Israel backs an anti-Hamas armed group known for looting
| aid in Gaza. Here's what we know
|
| https://apnews.com/article/gaza-armed-groups-hamas-
| israel-lo...
| timeon wrote:
| Is 0 better than 26,772 pallets?
| dlubarov wrote:
| Who is suggesting making it 0?
| goatsi wrote:
| The Israeli government in March of this year. And it
| wasn't a suggestion, it was an implemented policy.
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/02/middleeast/israel-halts-
| gaza-...
| itsnowandnever wrote:
| are you doing okay? you're all over these comments in a
| manic way trying to refute something people can see with
| their own eyes
| SilverElfin wrote:
| What do people see with their own eyes? I see terrorists
| who committed mass murder and rape, in the name of their
| religion, hiding among civilians. I see a war of self
| defense by a country that is peacefully home to a
| population that is 30% minority.
| bigyabai wrote:
| Either side of the conflict could say this and be 100%
| justified in their accusation. That's what people "see
| with their own eyes" if you needed some perspective.
| buyucu wrote:
| Yes, I see Israeli terrorists who have been committing
| mass murder for decades.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| First of all your own link clearly states "Intercepted:
| Either peacefully by hungry people or forcefully by armed
| actors, during transit in Gaza".
|
| Secondly, nobody can tell who intercepted what, it could
| very well be that the IDF is intercepting them covertly.
| dlubarov wrote:
| That's just spin; there's no way to peacefully intercept
| the vehicles. The drivers don't stop because a hungry
| person asked politely.
|
| > it could very well be that the IDF is intercepting them
| covertly
|
| This seems like a pretty farfetched conspiracy theory.
| There are smart phones and other cameras all over Gaza,
| and zero evidence of this.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| There's no "proof" but that doesn't mean it isn't
| happening. The pallets that never made it to people in need
| didn't magically disappear. There is also a history of
| Hamas stealing aid that goes back MUCH longer than the
| post-October-7 conflict:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Fe
| b...
| dataflow wrote:
| I have no idea. I've heard a lot of "just because a
| minister says it it isn't true, do you believe everything
| Trump or congresspeople say?" in response to what ministers
| say. That, and the usual "the media (particularly
| mainstream, like NYT) is lying/anti-semitic/etc." So I
| imagine the reply would be the same.
| alwa wrote:
| In conditions of desperation, aren't the strong people with
| the guns _always_ the last to starve?
| barbazoo wrote:
| It is irrelevant. Israel shouldn't block other countries from
| sending whatever aid, obviously making sure there's no arms.
| justin66 wrote:
| > How do you convince people that believe this that it isn't
| true
|
| It's not like the Gazans have any money to speak of.
|
| > (or is irrelevant)?
|
| If the way to prevent starvation is to flood the zone with
| food shipments, it's a moral imperative to do that. That it
| will also help keep the enemy fed is entirely beside the
| point, since causing starvation is not a legal or ethical
| form of warfare.
| Ray20 wrote:
| > It's not like the Gazans have any money to speak of.
|
| This is more of an argument in favor of the other side. It
| immediately becomes clear why they don't have the money.
| monocasa wrote:
| 20 years of economic warfare where all exports were
| banned as a mechanism for destroying their economy being
| a primary reason.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20100612001046/http://www.mcc
| lat...
| tguvot wrote:
| un data showing hundreds of trucks exporting goods from
| gaza every month:
|
| https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings
| jacobgorm wrote:
| See this Tucker Carlson interview with a former US special
| forces colonel who worked distributing aid in Gaza
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QRjEMbHXM4Q
| tguvot wrote:
| the one that was fired for misconduct, begged to get his
| job back and threatened that he will become their nightmare
| in case they don't rehire him ? sounds very reliable.
|
| https://ghf.org/press-briefing-ghf-addresses-personnel-
| matte...
| zippothrowaway wrote:
| What's the best way of reducing this markup if it were true?
| Not sending in aid (no supply = lots of demand) or flooding
| the area with aid?
|
| Seems to me, if the claim is true, Israel is trying to give
| Hamas more power, not less.
| Humorist2290 wrote:
| Then Israel severely limiting the amount of food is helping
| Hamas by artificially, and cruelly, limiting supply. People
| want to feed their families and will go to great lengths:
| sell their valuables, harm others, or wait in line at a Gaza
| Health Ministry site with the knowledge the IDF might fire
| into the crowd.
|
| If they flooded Gaza with food then Hamas would benefit less
| from the supposed stealing/reselling.
| Veserv wrote:
| Honest question, why can it not just go through the 14 km
| border with Egypt? Is Egypt also blocking access for food and
| aid?
| arnsholt wrote:
| Because the Rafah crossing is currently controlled by the
| Israeli army. Egypt can allow all the aid it wants, it'll
| still get stopped by the Israelis.
| monocasa wrote:
| And even before then, Egypt's peace with Israel (and
| Egypt's subsequent ~$1B/yr in defense aid from the US)
| depends on playing nice with Israel in several respects,
| including deferring to Israeli policy on the Gaza border.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| Not that it's ever prevented smuggling. Curious where all
| of hamas weapons are coming from.
| monocasa wrote:
| There has been smuggling of course, but (perhaps
| unintentionally) Israel gives them most of what they use.
|
| > But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which
| Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and
| anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that
| failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza,
| according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western
| intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters
| with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases.
|
| > "Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for
| Hamas," said Michael Cardash, the former deputy head of
| the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division and an
| Israeli police consultant. "They are cutting open bombs
| from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of
| them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their
| explosives and rockets."
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israe
| l-h...
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| Also repurposed infrastructure like water pipes and
| lamposts. But they had plenty of weapons and explosives
| pre war, before egypt sealed their border to gaza.
| monocasa wrote:
| The explosives are the part that obviously should be
| given the main focus.
|
| And quite a bit of what's being talked about wrt to re-
| manufacturing Israeli unexploded ordance was stockpiled
| prior to Oct 7th. Israel did not start bombing Gaza only
| after Oct 7th (and in fact had been bombing Gaza as late
| as Sept 23, 2023).
| throw0101d wrote:
| > _Not that it 's ever prevented smuggling. Curious where
| all of hamas weapons are coming from._
|
| Gaza is on the ocean: they could have been brought in via
| boat.
| monocasa wrote:
| To be fair, Israel has had a complete naval blockade of
| Gaza for some 20 years, and is probably the more
| effective part of their blockade.
| cogman10 wrote:
| There's also the fact that Israel has been bombing aid
| trucks and killing aid workers and burying them alive.
|
| Before May 2024, Egypt was the primary route for aid to
| get it, but getting from Southern Gaza to northern Gaza
| was incredibly dangerous.
| tguvot wrote:
| according to UN data egypt was primary route only for a
| few months following october 7th, as all of Israeli
| border was an active war zone:
|
| https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings
| yard2010 wrote:
| "What interest they have to come to such place"
| Alupis wrote:
| Egypt has made it fairly clear they want nothing to do with
| Gaza and Palenstine. I don't believe they would send aid or
| allow crossings anyway.
| buyucu wrote:
| Israel controls that border.
| buyucu wrote:
| And this didn't start in 2023. Gaza has been under Israeli
| blockade for decades.
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| The level of blockade now is on a whole other level.
|
| Not to mention that the blockade was enforced by Egypt as
| well.
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > And this didn't start in 2023. Gaza has been under Israeli
| blockade for decades.
|
| The blockade was also imposed by Egypt[0] and Hamas certainly
| provided no shortage of security related justifications for
| the blockade. Unfortunately those security concerns turned
| out to be accurate[1].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_7_attacks
| lejalv wrote:
| Unfortunately Netanyahu actively encouraged Qatar to send
| cash to Hamas.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
|
| > In February 2020, former Mossad Director Yossi Cohen and
| Israeli general Herzi Halevi, under Netanyahu's orders,
| went to Qatar to plead Qatari officials to continue the
| payments for Hamas.[8] Later, in September 2023, David
| Barnea, the Director of Mossad since 2021, went to Qatar to
| meet Qatari officials to discuss about the payments for
| Hamas.[10][44]
|
| (...)
|
| > Israeli intelligence officials believe that the money had
| a role in the success of 2023 Hamas-led attack.[10]
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > Unfortunately Netanyahu actively encouraged Qatar to
| send cash to Hamas.
|
| Yeah, Benjamin Netanyahu certainly got complacent
| thinking he could keep a genocidal terrorist group like
| Hamas under control with that strategy. Qatar and their
| support for terrorists has long been a problem as well.
| lupire wrote:
| The October 7 attacks only succeeded because Netanyahu
| opened the military border to let them in.
| SilverElfin wrote:
| It's not been under a "blockade" for even a year
| continuously. Literally earlier this year, hundreds of trucks
| carrying aid were allowed in _per day_. That was during the
| ceasefire that didn't last. If you go back to the history of
| blockades of Gaza you'll see it was very intermittent. And
| when things were tightened, it was in response to incidents
| like Hamas rocket attacks.
| monocasa wrote:
| The requirement is about five hundred trucks per day of
| food (so each truck feeding about four thousand people).
| The fact that on rare occasions they'd let in about half
| that isn't really a point in your favor.
| tguvot wrote:
| un own statistics site
| https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings
|
| food tracks fluctuate between 2000 and 3000 a month prior
| to oct 7th. a few more dozens of of tracks with "non-
| edible consumables" and "medical supplies". rest of
| tracks are construction materials
| churchill wrote:
| For those out of the loop the actions of the Israeli gov. are not
| some fringe overreaction. This is what the people want. by their
| own admission, 48% of Israeli Jews want Palestinians to be
| ethnically cleansed which would constitute a genocidal act, while
| 79% believe they should get preferential treatment over Arabs.
| [0]
|
| Both Israeli Arabs & Palestinian Arabs. This is not some, 'oh no!
| it just happened.' Everyone who has actually spent time studying
| this conflict, the state of Israel has a policy of systematic
| rape, torture, mass incarceration, murder, and dehumanization of
| Palestinians at an industrial scale that's been in place for
| decades now.
|
| They're just going mask-off in a way Western audiences can't
| pretend not to know about it any longer.
|
| Israelis and their Western supporters try to make out their
| actions as that of fringe far-right loonies like Smotrich, etc.
| Nope. Systematic rape, torture, murder, of non-Jews has been
| their policy for decades now. You're just finally learning about
| it after so long. The ultra-orthodox don't make up a plurality of
| the population and used to not serve in the military until
| recently. So, if their abominable ideology is state policy, it's
| because Israelis are okay with it.
|
| [0]: https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-
| israelis-w...
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Their hubris will be their own downfall.
|
| >Israel has denied the allegations. [from linked CNN article]
|
| People are waking up.
| dash2 wrote:
| > Systematic rape, torture, murder, of non-Jews has been their
| policy for decades now.
|
| I'd like some evidence for each of these three. I'm aware of
| the policy of interrogation which might count as "a policy of
| systematic torture". Can you do systematic rape and murder?
| churchill wrote:
| >Can you do systematic rape and murder?
|
| Was hoping you'd ask that.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_as_animals_in_Isr.
| ..
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-
| based_violen...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza.
| ..
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza.
| ..
|
| You may have ideological axes to grind with Wikipedia but
| every claim is abundantly sourced and backed by evidence from
| neutral sources.
| incrudible wrote:
| There is an abundance of allegations and testimony from not
| exactly neutral sources and a few isolated cases that have
| actual evidence going for them - which have been
| investigated and prosecuted by authorities.
| dlubarov wrote:
| > but every claim is abundantly sourced
|
| From a very particular pool of sources. Jewish sources like
| Jewish Chronicle, ADL and JVL are largely banned, as well
| as most of the major conservative news sources.
|
| Meanwhile Al Jazeera has the highest status, and is the top
| source for most articles in the topic area, despite
| publishing misinformation like [1]. (It turned out to be
| fabricated [2] but remains up on their blog. They quietly
| took down a separate video about it, with no apology or
| retraction.)
|
| That's how we end up with things like Wikipedia's updated
| definition of Zionism, based on anti-Zionist sources: "as
| much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as
| possible".
|
| Wikipedia is ultimately a numbers game, and editors
| interested in more balanced coverage have largely given up,
| since editors pushing an anti-Israeli agenda now have the
| numbers every time.
|
| [1]
| https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/3/24/israels-
| wa...
|
| [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-report-
| alleging-idf...
| Kim_Bruning wrote:
| > Jewish sources like Jewish Chronicle, ADL and JVL are
| largely banned, as well as all the major conservative
| news sources.
|
| Source?
|
| My personal rule-of-thumb is that an international news
| source is likely to be fairly reliable so long as it's
| not reporting on something that they have a conflict of
| interest in (eg home country/demographic).
| dlubarov wrote:
| The source ratings (for sources that have been discussed
| substantially) are on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip
| edia:Reliable_sources/Per...
| monocasa wrote:
| > Most editors seem to agree that Al Jazeera English and
| especially Al Jazeera Arabic are biased sources on the
| Arab-Israeli conflict and on topics for which the Qatari
| government has a conflict of interest.
|
| > Al Jazeera's live blogs should be treated with caution,
| per the policy on news blogs.
| dlubarov wrote:
| The note about bias does nothing to prevent it from being
| used. Wikipedia doesn't really have any policy of
| avoiding biased sources; see WP:BIASED.
|
| The live blog warning is mostly ignored in practice, even
| though it reflects a broader policy (WP:NEWSBLOG). Al
| Jazeera's live blog _alone_ is probably used more than
| any other source in the topic area.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| There is massive narrative deception from Israel... wake up
| world:
|
| >"There is no famine in Gaza. Period," the [Israeli] official
| said, adding that "Israel and the IDF are trying to strengthen
| the humanitarian situation in Gaza with partners."
|
| If you want to see what Netanyaho looks like _when he 's covering
| things up [lying]_ just watch the 2024 documentary _The Bibi
| Files_ -- about his corruption charges (which features over an
| hour of Netanyaho lying to investigators about his accepting
| _roses_ and _leaves_ [ _wine_ and _cigars_ ]) -- complete with
| his _shit-eating-grins_ galore...
| tdeck wrote:
| World leaders know this, they're pretending not to see it. For
| example, the Biden administration set specific aid targets for
| Israel to meet and even acknowledged that they weren't being
| met by the "deadline" but neglected to impose any consequences.
|
| https://www.propublica.org/article/biden-blinken-state-depar...
|
| Israelis (including those who use this platform to repeat the
| same warmed-over genocide denials for the umpteenth time) know
| it's happening too. That's why the argument is usually 50%
| "it's not happening" and 50% "but they deserve it".
| jordanb wrote:
| The Trump peace plan calls for a resumption of aid contingent on
| the Palestinians accepting the deal.
|
| Please understand that this is a war crime. You can not use
| starvation of civilians as a weapon or as leverage against
| combatants.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _this is a war crime. You can not use starvation of civilians
| as a weapon or as leverage against combatants_
|
| America withholding its own aid is not a war crime.
| blueflow wrote:
| For reference: While the gas chambers were are the prominent way
| of death during the Holocaust, the majority of victims died of
| starvation. Starvation death looks like succumbing to a random
| sickness (the body is just too weak for a functional immune
| response), and thus saves the perpetrator from the usual
| psychological consequences of direct murder. This methodology was
| agreed on during the Wannsee conference in 1942.
|
| See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan
| doodlebugging wrote:
| Samantha Power wrote an excellent book: "A Problem From Hell" -
| America and the Age of Genocide [0], [1]
|
| She had seen war and genocide first-hand in Bosnia and that
| provided the impetus for her to study how America had responded
| to various genocides.
|
| I will repeat the last paragraph of her Preface for some context.
|
| >Before I began exploring America's relationship with genocide, I
| used to refer to U.S. policy towards Bosnia as a "failure." I
| have changed my mind. It is daunting to acknowledge, but this
| country's consistent policy of nonintervention in the face of
| genocide offers sad testimony not to a broken American political
| system but to one that is ruthlessly effective. The system, as it
| stands now, _is working_. No U.S. president has ever made
| genocide prevention a priority, and no U.S. president has ever
| suffered politically for his indifference to its occurrence. It
| is thus no coincidence that genocide rages on.
|
| [0] https://samanthapower.com/books/a-problem-from-hell-
| america-...
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Hell-America-Age-
| Genocide/dp/...
| iisan7 wrote:
| Readers should be dubious of her moral authority on this issue.
| When given influence, her advocacy of the war on Libya resulted
| in endemic violence and showed that she was as misguided as
| anyone else in American politics when it comes to intervention
| in world affairs.
| nradov wrote:
| Genocide is a terrible thing. But that doesn't mean the USA has
| any obligation to directly intervene in foreign conflicts. Most
| of these aren't worth sacrificing the life of a single US
| soldier, and even when we do intervene it often makes the
| situation worse. Unless critical US national interests are
| involved, our actions should usually be limited to sanctions
| and diplomacy.
|
| (I am commenting on the general US policy and not making a
| statement about the current situation in Gaza.)
| Hikikomori wrote:
| Most of the time US sells the weapons used to do the
| genocide. This time they're just giving them away, and that
| is what a lot of Americans have a problem with.
| Amir_A wrote:
| What I find the most jarring about this on a day-to-day being in
| tech circles is how some of the smartest people I know are not
| only unwilling to call out what's happening, they're unwilling to
| acknowledge it to begin with, and some like the triangle man and
| Collison brothers even support it.
|
| The more time I spend in tech the more I realize there's a deep
| moral rot here covered up by noveau-rich wealth
| colpabar wrote:
| Where did the idea that being smart meant being moral come
| from? Why would anyone assume that people in tech are "good"? A
| lot of (I would say most) people go into tech to make money.
| All the people you expect to say something won't because doing
| so could jeopardize the amount of money they make. The same
| goes with celebrities, academics, politicians, etc. If you are
| someone who makes a lot of money, and you speak negatively
| about america's greatest ally, you will probably make less
| money as a direct result.
| graublau wrote:
| Because tech people spent probably 5 years signalling their
| moral goodness about a wide array of topics, indeed
| proclaiming these the most important political topics. IT was
| and still is insufferable.
| darod wrote:
| It's called marketing and value signaling. Doesn't mean
| they believe what they spew.
| bodhi_mind wrote:
| The problem is we're in an age of mass disinformation that
| makes any claim potentially propaganda. It comes down to trust
| and belief and those things are either easier than ever or
| harder than ever depending on media you consume and common
| sense.
| huevosabio wrote:
| Yea... It's sad and worrying.
|
| I feel like the community is censored or rather finds
| inconvenient to talk about it because of the big role that
| Israel plays in the tech scene. SV has an ethos of avoiding
| name calling and finger pointing at members of the community,
| since they know it's a long repeated game they are playing.
|
| But I'm glad to see some prominent voices step up.
| Particularly, PG and Amjad Massad (Replit) have been very
| vocal. I hope their voice makes people feel like it's OK to
| call out human right violations when they see them.
|
| Then there's the other extreme of the tech scene that simply
| decided to play politics for its own gain. The All In Pod crew
| as the poster children of this. Their cynicism is s transparent
| and disgusting in how they kiss the ring to get favor of the
| king in turn. I think that's a bit of what triangle man is
| trying to get, and it's certainly what sama was trying to do
| when this admin started.
| mef51 wrote:
| Israel blocks the entry of Plumpy Nut into Gaza, a peanut-butter
| like paste meant for treating severe acute malnutrition. They say
| it is a luxury item Hamas might steal.[1] The amount of evidence
| Israel is committing genocide is embarrassing.
|
| [1] https://x.com/DropSiteNews/status/1971582137947295831
| KittenInABox wrote:
| Question: There is a repeated claim that more calories have been
| provided to the Gaza people than several other human crisis
| scenarios, but that Hamas is currently stealing it all.
|
| But I have never seen rampant obesity in Hamas prisoners that the
| IDF have captured alive? Hamas can't be extorting the Gazan
| people for those calories, the Gazan people have no money at this
| point by and large due to the huge swath of destruction of
| property and infrastructure via bombing-- only Hamas has those
| underground tunnels or somesuch.
|
| So like... what is going on here
| justin66 wrote:
| Congratulations on discovering an easily identifyable lie.
| mef51 wrote:
| From the article: "An internal US government review found no
| evidence of widespread theft by Hamas of US-funded humanitarian
| aid in Gaza." Other reporting supports this.
|
| So what is going on is that the IDF are lying to justify their
| genocide. There is a massive propaganda machine at work to
| muddy the waters.
| m-s-y wrote:
| the article also states that the US has looked into the reports
| of Hamas stealing the aid and found that none of the aid
| appears to have been stolen by anyone.
|
| given the current US administration and their hard-on for
| Israel, I can't imagine this is a faked report. if it were
| faked, it'd be to agree with Israel
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| Kinda silly logic, access to calories doesn't mean someone has
| to be obese.
|
| Not saying that the claim is true, just that your logic is
| faulty.
| YZF wrote:
| Have a look here:
|
| https://apnews.com/article/mideast-wars-photo-gallery-hostag...
|
| Plenty of Hamas fighters looking in pretty great shape.
| Ozzie_osman wrote:
| > Question: There is a repeated claim that more calories have
| been provided to the Gaza people than several other human
| crisis scenarios, but that Hamas is currently stealing it all.
|
| This claim is made by supporters of the war _outside of Israel_
| for external consumption. If you look at what the Israeli
| cabinet, generals and politicians are saying for internal
| consumption... it's pretty deliberate.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| UN data, compare numbers "arrived" and "intercepted":
| https://app.un2720.org/tracking
|
| are you saying un supports the war then?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Intercepted is defined as "either peacefully by hungry
| people or forcefully by armed actors, during transit in
| Gaza." Some fraction of that _may_ be Hamas. But we have no
| evidence of that.
| jijijijij wrote:
| > Either _peacefully by hungry people_ or forcefully armed
| actors, during transit in Gaza
| alangibson wrote:
| Fixed headline: "How Israel caused famine in Gaza".
|
| There is an editorial voice reserved purely for blunting
| reporting on American and Israeli state crimes that drives me
| nuts.
| starik36 wrote:
| So assuming all this is true, why is Hamas refusing a peace deal
| that ends all this and lets them escape with their lives?
|
| Can someone provide a realistic answer?
| C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote:
| Because it doesn't move the situation any closer to liberation
| of their people and their homeland.
|
| They have been willing to constantly fight, and constantly keep
| getting killed by an enemy with overwhelming advantages, for
| their cause for two years now. Why would you assume that being
| able to escape with their lives is suddenly more important to
| them?
| Ray20 wrote:
| > doesn't move the situation any closer to liberation of
| their people and their homeland.
|
| From Hamas?
| chimineycricket wrote:
| From the people killing them in places where Hamas has no
| control and building illegal settlements on their land.
| oytis wrote:
| I mean, it moves the situation closer to not living in war
| and famine? Also the idea of amnesty to all Hamas members
| looks pretty generous to me - Nazis didn't enjoy the same
| privilege
| C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote:
| > I mean, it moves the situation closer to not living in
| war and famine?
|
| And then what? Look at the West Bank to see what happens
| when you don't resist the occupation and fully cooperate
| with the colonial state. You get slowly cleansed anyway.
|
| > Also the idea of amnesty to all Hamas members looks
| pretty generous to me
|
| Israel specializes in assassinations and has a history of
| relentlessly pursuing those it deems its enemies. If you
| were a Hamas fighter, your choice would be to either die
| fighting for a purpose, or be killed in exile without a
| purpose anymore.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _They have been willing to constantly fight, and constantly
| keep getting killed by an enemy with overwhelming advantages,
| for their cause for two years now_
|
| Hamas has. If you put this deal to a plebescite in Gaza, do
| you really think they'd vote for more war?
| C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote:
| Yes, Hamas (and all the other resistance factions that are
| active in Gaza). The question I responded to was: "why is
| Hamas refusing a peace deal that ends all this and lets
| them escape with their lives?" My answer was perfectly
| within the scope of the original question.
| stale2002 wrote:
| > They have been willing to constantly fight, and constantly
| keep getting killed by an enemy
|
| Thats not true at all. Most people in palestine do not want
| to throw their lives away for nothing. Most of them want
| peace. Its only Hamas that would apparently prefer to get
| killed and have gaza be flattened instead of accepting peace.
| C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote:
| The question I responded to was: "why is Hamas refusing a
| peace deal that ends all this and lets them escape with
| their lives?" Your responding that what I wrote is "not
| true at all" makes no sense in the context.
| justin66 wrote:
| > why is Hamas refusing a peace deal
|
| They're psychotic idiots.
|
| > lets them escape with their lives
|
| On the other hand: how idiotic would they have to be to believe
| the Israelis will let them escape with their lives, given all
| the evidence to the contrary?
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Killing 736 Israeli civilians, 79 foreign nationals, and 379
| Israeli military and security personnel, and kidnapping an
| additional 250 civilians is not, by any fathomable definition,
| genocide. It is a war crime for sure, but it's not genocide.
|
| Edit: the post I was replying to was claiming Hamas/the
| Palestinians perpetrated a genocide in Israel. It has since
| been edited to be a completely different thing.
| starik36 wrote:
| Did you even read the question?
| tzs wrote:
| I think you are mixing up genocide and the acts that are
| committed in furtherance of genocide.
|
| Genocide is legally a set of acts committed with the intent
| to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
|
| So yes, what Hamas did on Oct 7 was not genocide, and
| similarly what Israel does on any given day in Gaza is not
| genocide. Rather they are both part of ongoing campaigns that
| arguably are genocide.
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > Killing 736 Israeli civilians, 79 foreign nationals, and
| 379 Israeli military and security personnel, and kidnapping
| an additional 250 civilians is not, by any fathomable
| definition, genocide. It is a war crime for sure, but it's
| not genocide.
|
| I think the evidence is quite overwhelming that Hamas had
| clear genocidal intent, even if they did not have the means
| to accomplish that intent.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| Something I try to explain to people is that HAMAS tries to
| kill civilians, but fails at achieving their goals,
| meanwhile Israel tries to avoid killing civilians, but
| fails to achieve that goal.
|
| One of these is better than the other.
|
| Weirdly, _many_ people disagree over which one that is.
| phgn wrote:
| > Israel tries to avoid killing civilians
|
| Did you read the article this discussion is about?
|
| How could one cause a famine accidentally, without intent
| to murder civilians?
| catlikesshrimp wrote:
| You are honestly blaming the killing of 60,000+ Palestinians on
| Hamas for not accepting a Peace Deal (Israel didn't honor the
| last one months ago) only?
|
| Assume it is a hostage situation, 2,000,000 Hostages. Israel
| has killed 60,000+ hostages trying to rescue hostages.
| Starvation also counts as killings to me, but I supposed
| "Starved" is less direct than "Shot"
| BriggyDwiggs42 wrote:
| Isn't it true that some of the leadership doesn't live in gaza
| at all?
| lupire wrote:
| Yes, that's who was bombed in Qatar.
|
| They do some finances and politics but aren't involved in
| running Gaza or the military/militants.
| BriggyDwiggs42 wrote:
| Then it makes a lot of sense they might fear for their life
| less than the militants actually trapped in gaza
| esafak wrote:
| Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leaders_of_Hamas
| Vosporos wrote:
| Leadership of the political organisation, not all. However
| the military branch's leadership is/was in Gaza (like Yahya
| Sinwar and others who were killed)
| moogly wrote:
| > a peace deal that ends all this
|
| Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir do not want this peace deal
| either. There is 0 chance it would be honored.
| starik36 wrote:
| Netanyahu signed on. I am asking why Hamas won't accept it.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| When Israel has broken all of the previous peace deals, you
| would have to be deeply idiotic to accept one brokered by
| Trump of all people.
| mk89 wrote:
| It would make Hamas entirely useless, how could they accept
| it?
| lejalv wrote:
| That's not true, if you're referring to the Trump plan, as
| he contradicted one of the main points upon return to
| Israel. He selectively backed some part of it, which is not
| really "signing" on the same plan that was offered to other
| parties.
|
| Also, what value has Netanyahu's word? I mean, after
| blowing up a truce unilaterally, after killing negotiators,
| after all the corruption reckoning that is coming to him
| if/when out of office...
| moogly wrote:
| It amazes me how anyone can believe Netanyahu's theatrics
| at this point.
| duxup wrote:
| Has there been a peace deal that ends any of this for long?
| starik36 wrote:
| It was introduced by Trump on Monday, iirc. Israel and most
| of Arab nations signed on. Hamas is the one likely saying no.
| lejalv wrote:
| That is, technically, at odds with the truth, and morally,
| a transparent attempt at misinformation, please read the
| comments above you, or use "the internet".
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| Hamas and Israel only had ceasefire deals from what I recall,
| not an actual peace deal.
| sirfz wrote:
| The party refusing any kind of deal are Israel since their goal
| is annihilation of Palestinians. Hamas were ready from day one
| for a deal, their goal (contrary to israeli narrative of
| course) was to negotiate prisoner exchange for the 1000s of
| Palesitnian prisoners held by israel (including children). This
| is still their goal along with ceasefire and complete
| withdrawal from Gaza.
| Ozzie_osman wrote:
| Whenever they've tried to agree to any peace deals in the past,
| what ends up happening is they make concessions and then
| Netanyahu turns around and resumes the war anyway.
| monocasa wrote:
| Because Netanyahu is already saying he wouldn't comply with the
| deal that he's already agreed to, and isn't treating it as a
| peace deal.
|
| > While Netanyahu agreed to the plan on Monday, he already
| appears to be pushing back on several of its terms.
|
| > In a video posted on X, he insisted that the IDF would would
| be able to remain in parts of the territory and that Israel
| would 'forcibly resist' the establishment of a Palestinian
| state.
|
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15156091/Hamas-mili...
| slowturtle wrote:
| Probably because Israel violated the ceasefire earlier this
| year (that was a sham from the beginning) that lasted from
| January to March. The first phase of the ceasefire saw an
| exchange of hostages, but then the Israelis refused to move on
| to the second phase and broke the ceasefire by bombing Gaza in
| the middle of the night, killing over 400 Palestinians in one
| day, including over 200 children. [0]
|
| Not to mention the fact that Israel just killed a top Hamas
| negotiator in Doha, Qatar only a few weeks ago. [1] How can you
| negotiate with someone who just killed your negotiator?
|
| [0] https://apnews.com/live/latest-updates-israel-launches-
| new-w...
|
| [1] https://apnews.com/article/qatar-explosion-
| doha-e319dd51b170...
| usaar333 wrote:
| That wasn't a ceasefire violation. It was a six week
| ceasefire that had expired at the beginning of March
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > Probably because Israel violated the ceasefire earlier this
| year (that was a sham from the beginning) that lasted from
| January to March. The first phase of the ceasefire saw an
| exchange of hostages, but then the Israelis refused to move
| on to the second phase and broke the ceasefire by bombing
| Gaza in the middle of the night, killing over 400
| Palestinians in one day, including over 200 children.
|
| Israel has been rather consistent that a permanent ceasefire
| will only happen when Hamas effectively surrenders and gives
| up power. Hamas had also refused to continue releasing
| hostages which effectively ended the ceasefire(as the terms
| of the second phase were never finalized).
|
| > Not to mention the fact that Israel just killed a top Hamas
| negotiator in Doha, Qatar only a few weeks ago. [1] How can
| you negotiate with someone who just killed your negotiator?
|
| I suppose when attempting to negotiate the surrender of Hamas
| if the negotiators refuse to surrender after having clearly
| lost a war they started then eliminating the current
| negotiators may result in their replacements being more
| likely to capitulate. That seemed to work out with Hezbollah
| at least.
| stale2002 wrote:
| > How can you negotiate with someone who just killed your
| negotiator?
|
| The only other option seems to be that Israel is about to
| destroy the rest of Gaza City, and take out the last major
| location that Hamas controls. So their options are to either
| accept the peace plan, or die.
|
| I don't think Israel cares that much which choice Hamas
| choses. But yeah accepting this peace deal sounds like it it
| quite obviously the mostly likely option to help prevent all
| the buildings that are about to be destroyed and people who
| will be killed.
| realusername wrote:
| Why would the answer to this question matter in any way?
|
| It's not a war anymore, wars are between armies, not civilians.
| chollida1 wrote:
| I can't believe I'm weighing in on a political thread, but the
| "deal" is very one sided. It offers very little for the
| Palestinians in terms of creating their own country and ability
| to self govern and gives Israel pretty much everything they
| want including some control over Palestine.
|
| The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No
| other country would sign it either.
| jameshilliard wrote:
| > the "deal" is very one sided
|
| This is pretty much one should expect when one starts and
| loses a war, same as with the surrender of Nazi Germany and
| the Japanese at the end of WW2.
|
| > The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians.
| No other country would sign it either.
|
| It's a surrender agreement effectively, it's certainly not a
| peace deal amongst equal parties.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _This is pretty much one should expect when one starts
| and loses a war, same as with the surrender of Nazi Germany
| and the Japanese at the end of WW2_
|
| You're being downvoted, but this is pretty much it. Gaza
| gets peace out of the deal. That's about all they have left
| to negotiate for.
| istjohn wrote:
| The indigenous people of Palestine did not start this
| conflict. They did not choose to be colonized by Jews
| fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| Yes they did. The jews were ready to accept the UN plan
| in 47. If the palestinains agreed the nakba would have
| been the end of this conflict. Instead the Palestinians
| chose governments that attacked israel. Even when Israel
| left gaza after the second intifada the gazans continued
| to launch rockets at tel aviv.
| tguvot wrote:
| the deal is not with palestinians but with hamas (unless you
| say that hamas represents palestinians). palestinians at
| large and palestinian authority support this deal.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| Well the palestinians shouldnt have launched a terrorist
| attack if they wanted a good deal. Now their choices are bad
| deal or genocide
| phgn wrote:
| This is not how international law is supposed to work.
|
| Nothing justifies a genocide.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| How could Palestine launch an attack if it wasn't a state?
| It was Hamas, right? It's a war against Hamas, not a grab
| for territory, right?
| oytis wrote:
| Cause they are islamists and have nothing against turning all
| of Gaza's population into "martyrs"?
| Animats wrote:
| _"Israel has built the most efficient starvation machine you can
| imagine."_
|
| There's political opposition to this within Israel. Here's what
| happened to an elected member of the Knesset who spoke out
| against the cruelty in Gaza.[1] He was forcibly removed from the
| podium of the Knesset.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzDxV7jnAos
| justin66 wrote:
| People sometimes forget how bitterly divided Israel was
| _before_ October 7th, with hundreds of thousands of people
| protesting in the streets. The war put some of the infighting
| on hold for a while, but all the former problems still exist,
| and the stakes are higher.
| frank_nitti wrote:
| Even Charlie Kirk, of all people, was talking about this
| (ignore the clickbait video title):
| https://youtu.be/3wUq3t9f6ug?si=nV_NukcsjHZgj0MT
| TrnsltLife wrote:
| Of all people?
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| I just googled this:
| https://www.scribd.com/document/924955773/Kirk-Letter
| LightBug1 wrote:
| I don't know much about Charlie Kirk except what I've
| read recently. But he did seem to be part of a growing
| element of the right in the USA who stand against Israel
| and Netanyahu specifically. And while I support that, I
| don't think it's necessarily to support Palestinians, but
| more as an America First policy.
|
| In that context, "of all people" makes sense to me. I too
| have been surprised by the move, of some on the right,
| against Israel, considering their almost unanimous
| support previously.
| ciconia wrote:
| The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. _All_
| Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the
| military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from
| left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has
| spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for
| Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have
| called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.
| abrenuntio wrote:
| Some Orthodox Jews are very active against it, on very
| sound religious grounds.
| wat10000 wrote:
| Pretty sure there's some commandment about this.
| ebbi wrote:
| They're a very tiny minority, and unfortunately they also
| get harrassed by Zionist Israelis
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support
| the military campaign in Gaza_
|
| Source?
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _how bitterly divided Israel was before October 7th ...
| people protesting in the streets. The war put some of the
| infighting on hold ... the stakes are higher_
| What are the factors that transform a society that is
| generally decent, even if not free from flaws, into a society
| devoid of any moral restraints, into a multitude that wallows
| in the dubious pleasure of its cohesion and unity,
| indifferent to suffering, completely closed to others?
| The victims of the Nazis' knowledge were indeed the Jews.
| Nazi anti-Semitism was indeed particularly destructive and
| murderous. But the Nazis disregarded human life
| wherever it was. The extermination of hundreds of thousands
| of Russian prisoners of war is just another example, but
| their attitude towards their own army, on the Stalingrad
| front for example, was also devoid of any human
| consideration. Hitler did indeed lead these moves,
| but only here and there did anyone voice a complaint or
| reservation. With the outbreak of the war, the spirit of
| those who could truly resist was completely broken.
| Is it really that easy to break the spirit? How does that
| happen? Few history books deal with this. Huffner tries to
| explain, and even if he is not always convincing and does not
| see everything, this experience of his, so close to the
| moment of truth in Europe on the eve of the outbreak of World
| War II, is unique and one of a kind. I believe that even in
| our time and even in our places, it is worthy of in-depth
| study.
|
| - Shulamit Volkov (afterword to "The Story of a German" by
| Sebastian Huffner).
| hackandthink wrote:
| Huffner is Haffner:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Haffner
| ciconia wrote:
| The man speaking is Ayman Odeh [1], an Arab Israeli MK and
| chairman of Hadash, a left-wing Arab Israeli party. Arab
| Israelis and their political leaders are marginalized in
| Israeli society. Arab Israeli parties are largely considered
| illegitimate by a majority of Jewish Israelis.
|
| Political opposition to the starvation of Gaza is still
| marginal, especially in Jewish society. Protests in Arab cities
| against the starvation and the genocide are being curbed and
| prevented by the police. the Jewish majority is still largely
| silent on these issues, if not outright supportive of the
| government policy.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Odeh
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Just to be fair, Israel itself is considered illegitimate by
| those parties. I doubt most democracies would let parties
| that are staunchly anti-state run, but Israel, for some
| reason, does.
| monocasa wrote:
| Hadash is not an anti-state party. For instance it
| explicitly supports a two state solution.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Hadash is a communist party, first and foremost. But the
| Arab parties - Balad, Raam, Taal - they are advocating
| for Palestinian "right of return" and turning Israel into
| a bi-national state, therefore ending what we know as
| Israel today.
| monocasa wrote:
| Being against Israel's status as an ethnostate is hardly
| "anti-state".
| fatbird wrote:
| "Israel should be different" is not the same as "Israel
| shouldn't exist". Calling them anti-state is nonsense.
| fakedang wrote:
| They are not parties considering Israel illegitimate nor
| are they calling for the destruction of Israel. They are
| parties calling for a two-state solution, and consider the
| globally-recognized-as-illegal settlements as illegitimate
| i.e. they call the ever expanding borders of Israel as
| illegitimate.
|
| If you were to make them illegal, you're basically legally
| disenfranchising 25% of Israel's population.
| fatbird wrote:
| Canada has a federal party since 1991, the Bloc Quebecois,
| "devoted to Quebecois nationalism, social democracy, and
| the promotion of Quebecois sovereignty."[0] They're
| explicitly separatist by policy. Quebec's last attempt at
| attaining sovereignty was a provincial referendum in 1995
| that lost by 0.5%. Had it succeeded, the provincial gov't
| was prepared to declare full independence the next day.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois
| munk-a wrote:
| As a Canadian I'd also say that having such a party is a
| huge boon to the country. Separatists are going to
| separatist - your choice, as a nation, is whether to
| allow them to organize and have their voices heard within
| the system of politics or whether to force them to resort
| to violence and underground organization. Those
| underground separatist groups will always exist but
| giving formal political representation to the desire for
| separation (even if it isn't granted) can help defuse
| extremism and provide better methods for airing
| grievances.
|
| The modern BQ is much more tame than the BQ of thirty
| years prior - they've mainly morphed into a party focused
| on franophone rights within Canada and the maintenance of
| QC labor rights. So while they specifically no longer
| represent that separatist movement as directly there are
| other groups focused on prairie separatism that are a
| better modern parallel.
| jondea wrote:
| Do any of the Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru or Sinn
| Fein count? I have no doubt there are similar elsewhere...
| pbreit wrote:
| The original quote is a bit much. UN credibility on Israel
| topics is qustionable.
| slowturtle wrote:
| UK surgeon Nick Maynard, a volunteer at Nasser Hospital, tells
| Good Morning Britain that he and other doctors tried to bring
| baby formula into Gaza and the Israelis confiscated it from them
| with no justification. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ipJEROtHOs
| bjoli wrote:
| The reason for that is apparently that you can use baby formula
| to make rocket candy. Because apparently extracting the lactose
| from 40kg baby formula is all it takes to make a quassam
| rocket.
|
| If you can get your hand om 20kg of oxidiser that is. It is all
| more than ridiculous.
|
| Edit: and Nick Maynard is a national treasure.
| cma wrote:
| Though different from the rocket fuel, I've read Israel has
| dumped so much ordinance on Gaza that the Hamas weapons
| primarily use material from unexploded ordinance as their
| warheads.
| mothballed wrote:
| Same for water. I've heard they could electrolyze drinking
| water into hydrogen and oxygen. Then they could explode the
| hydrogen using the oxygen as an oxidizer.
|
| Only solution is to cut off all wells and water supplies.
| amelius wrote:
| https://www.dhmo.org/
| tboyd47 wrote:
| Would it be acceptable even with a justification?
| munk-a wrote:
| If a justification was given we'd be able to evaluate the
| worthiness of that decision - if there were technical notes
| about, for instance, food safety concerns, we could evaluate
| the justification against other standards in different areas
| of the world around proper formula storage.
|
| Without a justification the decision is arbitrary and
| silences any ability to push back against it within the
| normal bounds of dialog. A justification would potentially
| allow aid groups to remedy whatever the specific deficiency
| is if it is a reasonable deficiency to remedy.
|
| If there was a justification it might be acceptable -
| depending on the justification - without a justification it
| is unacceptable when there is such a clear need. The aid is
| blocked and there is no recourse to unblock it outside the
| current attempts to just smuggle it in.
| kergonath wrote:
| No, but the callousness of an arbitrary decision without even
| spending 10 seconds to make up a pretend reason is a pure
| display of power. They do what they want and they don't care
| one bit about even looking like the good guys.
| wat10000 wrote:
| That rather depends on the justification. "We think you might
| be planning to use that to feed babies," no. "There's a small
| canister of nerve gas concealed in the middle," yes.
| basisword wrote:
| I think we all know what their 'justification' was
| unfortunately.
| glonq wrote:
| "Israel accused the IPC of lowering the second threshold of
| acutely malnourished children for a famine declaration, which the
| IPC has denied."
|
| Damn, Israel is really arguing about how much child starvation
| they are allowed to inflict before it becomes egregious?
|
| That might be another one of those "are we the baddies?" moments
| right there.
| BJones12 wrote:
| Definitions matter. It's possible for an organization to
| redefine "acutely malnourished" as less than 4000 Cal/day, and
| then use that to make an accusation. Is that reasonable? No,
| because that does not match reality. It's unreasonable to
| criticize pushback on changing definitions because definitions
| should be pushed toward reality.
| basisword wrote:
| As you say definitions matter - so let's not invent
| hypothetical scenarios to dismiss points.
|
| Israel was not arguing about the definition of 'acute
| malnourished'. The threshold for famine is 15%. The IPC said
| it had just hit 16% and was thus a famine. Israel was arguing
| that other data showed it was only 12.2-13.5% and therefore
| not a famine. When you get to the point of arguing "only 12%
| of the children are starving, not 16%" you probably shouldn't
| bother.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _When you get to the point of arguing "only 12% of the
| children are starving, not 16%" you probably shouldn't
| bother_
|
| Devil's advocate: we grow enough food to feed every human.
| What we lack is the logistics. War disrupts logistics. Food
| insecurity rising is thus, unfortunately, an expected (and
| probably unmitigatable) consequence of war.
|
| That's why we have to define a line, based on history and
| capability, that sets what's a tolerable amount of
| starvation. And what is not.
| istjohn wrote:
| Famine is not an inevitable outcome of war. It is the
| inevitable outcome of Israel's deliberate actions to
| limit access to food, which are well-documented.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Famine is not an inevitable outcome of war_
|
| Food insecurity is. Famine is not. The latter is
| statistically defined, which is why we have levels and
| people arguing about which side of that level they stand.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Fine, remove the word famine.
|
| Acute malnourishment going above 10% is not an inevitable
| outcome of war. This was deliberate action.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Acute malnourishment going above 10% is not an
| inevitable outcome of war_
|
| I don't know enough about this topic to debate levels.
| I'd just point out that you're still specifying a level,
| and that level can't be zero if it's going to be taken
| seriously.
| Alupis wrote:
| It has also been well-documented that the controlling
| interest within Gaza also limits access to food - of it's
| own citizens/people.
|
| While it seems undeniable the people of Gaza are
| experiencing food scarcity - we cannot lay blame soley at
| the foot of Israel here. That would be grossly
| disengenous and an outright falsehood.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _we cannot lay blame soley at the foot of Israel here_
|
| For the famine, yes we can. Let the aid in. Let Hamas
| steal it. Now you can blame Hamas. The fact that we have
| zero evidence of Hamas stealing the current aid makes it
| entirely one side's fault.
| Alupis wrote:
| Aid _did_ get in, and Hamas _did_ steal it. The media
| ignored it, so the narrative continues status-quo.
|
| Israel has no reason to support Hamas and their efforts
| here. If Hamas wasn't stealing all of the aid earlier in
| this conflict, perhaps aid would still be flowing into
| Gaza.
|
| It doesn't seem so absolute/cut-and-dry like you try to
| make it.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Aid did get in, and Hamas did steal it_
|
| We have no proof this was routinely happening [1].
|
| [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/h
| amas-un...
| db48x wrote:
| Hamas regularly brags in their recruitment videos about
| how much food they have, and how their fighters get to
| eat as much as they want.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Ah then cut off the whole region entirely. Makes perfect
| sense.
|
| Here's a crazy idea. If hamas steal even 90% of the food,
| why not flood the area with so much fucking food it
| becomes worthless instead of letting humans starve as
| terrible collateral against your war goals?
|
| Which approach do you think better serves the stated
| goals of defeating the terrorists?
|
| Nah, isolation and cruelty it is. Israel has created
| generations of enemies.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| And pissed away generations of goodwill (deserved or not)
| abroad. The damage to the Israeli state is incalculable.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _why not flood the area with so much fucking food it
| becomes worthless instead of letting humans starve as
| terrible collateral against your war goals?_
|
| ...this is a really good idea. And American farmers are
| over a barrel due to tariffs...
| actionfromafar wrote:
| _Now_ you believe them?
| ipaddr wrote:
| There is enough food to feed the children but Israel
| won't let the food in. Not logistics someone trying to
| kill them and claiming to be the victim.
| wat10000 wrote:
| Does _this_ particular (supposed) definition change matter
| _here_? Because if it doesn 't, pushback by the aggressor is
| heinous and obviously disingenuous even if your abstract love
| of accuracy means you happen to agree with the objection.
| BJones12 wrote:
| From my understanding there is an argument about whether
| 12% or 16% of children meet a certain threshold of food
| availability, which affects whether or not it is called a
| famine. One is regarded as not a famine, one is regarded as
| a famine, and there is argument over what data to use.
|
| And the definition does matter, because 'famine' has the
| meaning of a certain level of bad thing happening. If we do
| not preserve the meaning, then the word will not have a
| meaning, then we have no more word to talk about that bad
| thing, so we will pay no attention to averting or fixing
| the bad thing because we don't have the literal ability to
| talk about it.
|
| I'm in favor of being able to have a productive discussion
| about famines and how to avoid them, so I'm in favor of
| having a word for 'famine' with a clearly defined meaning.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| The word "famine" does not have a clearly-defined
| statistical meaning outside of some very specific
| circumstances. We abhor the idea of famine whether it
| occurs at 12% or 14% or 23% of children because we see
| all of these things to be very bad circumstances. One
| particular organization chose a 15% threshold for a
| legalistic definition in their framework, and the
| government is lawyering this because _they can_ lawyer an
| arbitrary threshold and they think that will help them
| win some PR points. Thats all this is.
|
| PS Do you really think the number "15%" is some natural
| value that nature or the Bible or teams of scientists
| chose to define "famine"? It's an arbitrary threshold
| that someone picked because it's a bit larger than 10%
| and less than 20% and divisible by the number of digits
| on the human hand.
| moogly wrote:
| From the latest "peace plan":
|
| > 7. Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be
| immediately sent into the Gaza Strip.
|
| Full. Fucking. Admission. Right. There.
| phgn wrote:
| Sent by whom?
|
| Also, the Israeli government cannot be trusted.
|
| Their whole strategy since 1948 has been about distracting
| the Palestinians with fake peace processes that were never
| meant to lead to anything.
|
| (see the book "The Hundred Years' War on Palestine")
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Their whole strategy since 1948 has been about
| distracting the Palestinians with fake peace processes that
| were never meant to lead to anything_
|
| Totally untrue. Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in
| 2005 [1]. The current divides aren't as entrenched as the
| belligerents would have us believe.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_fro
| m_the...
| phgn wrote:
| From the Wikipedia article you linked:
|
| > Bernard Avishai states that the Gaza withdrawal was
| designed to obviate rather than facilitate peace
| negotiations [...]
|
| > Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov
| Weissglass, explained the meaning of Sharon's statement
| further: The significance of the disengagement plan is
| the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze
| that process, you prevent the establishment of a
| Palestinian state [...]
|
| > Shimon Peres, then Vice Prime Minister, stated in an
| interview that: "We are disengaging from Gaza because of
| demography"
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| The first two are suppositions. The last...I don't know
| what to make of it. Isn't the whole point of delineating
| Israel and Palestine demography?
| asadm wrote:
| I think people blaming it on Hamas need to realize that Israel
| funds Hamas and uses it as a tool to further their goals. Hamas
| is their version of Talibans. It fully lines up.
| mk89 wrote:
| Well, if that was the case, it's not really working out for
| Israel now, is it? Considering that more and more countries are
| recognising Palestine, etc.
|
| This comment is widespread on X or other social media as the
| n-th conspiracy theory that Israel has staged the attack etc.
| Crazy.
| lejalv wrote:
| You really need to google "Netanyahu. Hamas. Qatar". Pick
| your favourite news source. You're in for some surprises.
| brooke2k wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
| mk89 wrote:
| Doesn't prove anything, and it definitely doesn't prove he
| gave Hamas weapons so they would be victims of a terror
| attack.
|
| Hell, we in the West have given Gaza (and indirectly, we
| knew it would go to Hamas) so much money. Did we support
| terrorism? How did we know that they would use our money to
| buy weapons to murder people in Israel instead of building
| good things?
|
| For me this is more showing an utter incompetence both from
| Nethanyau and our Western leaders who totally didn't see
| how they outsmarted us for years. Why do you think our
| leaders can control everything and know everything? They
| can make mistakes out of incompetence.
|
| I guess this strategy sometimes works in other countries,
| and sometimes they screw you :)
| logicchains wrote:
| Israel's territory is still expanding, and Palestine's is
| still shrinking, so it seems to be working out pretty fine.
| All those countries recognising Palestine don't have the
| balls to actually conduct any kind of military intervention
| against Israel.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Considering that more and more countries are recognising
| Palestine_
|
| Would note that _none_ of the recent recognitions, to my
| knowledge, said anything about borders. A Palestinian state
| that solely exists in the West Bank would be consistent with
| these statements.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Israel funds Hamas_
|
| Funded. Past tense. We funded the Mujahideen, once, and then
| got bombed by their successors.
| rgblambda wrote:
| The Taliban had very little overlap in membership with the
| Mujahedeen. They were their successors in the sense that they
| overthrew them.
|
| The Mujahedeen did not morph into or rebrand as the Taliban.
| In fact they became the Northern Alliance, opposed to the
| Taliban.
| tguvot wrote:
| > A senior COGAT official told a briefing in early September that
| 27% of the trucks entering Gaza are UN vehicles, claiming it was
| "a lie" that the UN had brought in 600 aid trucks a day before
| the war.
|
| un own statistics site https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings
|
| food tracks fluctuate between 2000 and 3000 a month prior to oct
| 7th. a few more dozens of of tracks with "non-edible consumables"
| and "medical supplies". rest of tracks are construction materials
|
| "farm land" part, they forgot to mention that gaza was always
| totally dependent on imported food. farmland iirc provides only
| few percent of calories required in gaza. live stock is also
| sustained by imported feed
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| It's amazing to see how support of Israel has started collapsing.
| Scores of US-aligned nations now recognise Palestine. Even inside
| their traditional support base in the US, it's on the decline;
| 50% of Republicans under 50 don't support Israel. At least one
| republican is calling it a "genocide". MAGA split over Iran.
|
| What's interesting is that I don't see the zionist talking points
| changing at all. They still hold out hope they can accuse
| everyone of "anti-semitism" and they'll all get back in line like
| it's 2020. I think they're holding out hope things can go back to
| normal, but it will be hard to put the toothpaste back in the
| tube.
| crikeykangaroo wrote:
| This genocide reveals how much Israel truly controls the US
| government and other Western countries. I am beyond appalled this
| is allowed to happen. The last couple of months also showed that
| international rules and agreements don't mean anything - they are
| in fact only there to please the Western countries, until they
| throw it in the bin when it is convenient to them.
| bgnn wrote:
| Anyone who isn't from the West, hell even Southern Europeans,
| are taking note. There is no rights and freedoms for us. All
| this for to support a bully of a fundamentalist state and a
| bunch of theocratic kingdoms/emirates.
| mindslight wrote:
| I've got to wonder if Israel is one the pillars propping up
| Trump along with China and Russia. It would make perfect sense
| with its relation to the Epstein files (in which Trump is
| likely mentioned every other paragraph).
|
| I'm not saying the Democrats have done great by Gaza, but I
| feel like the point we're at - irrefutable genocide through
| starvation - there would at least be significant pressure to
| stop attacking humanitarian convoys.
|
| All I can really say about the current situation is that it
| would be a great time for the EU to step up, demonstrate some
| international leadership, and forcibly deliver aid under the
| guard of military force.
| arkensaw wrote:
| That simply will never happen. As outspoken as EU countries
| are, they are not inclined to act beyond the diplomatic
| equivalent of a strongly worded email. It's a fantasy to
| think that any single EU nation would risk a shooting war
| with Israel by trying to deliver aid without permission, and
| they absolutely could never reach a consensus on doing it as
| a unit.
| jijijijij wrote:
| > This genocide reveals how much Israel truly controls the US
| government and other Western countries.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation
|
| There you go. The loonies in the christian right need the Jews
| living in Israel for their favorite doomsday scenario to come
| true or something.
|
| Yes, it does sound insane.
| rdtsc wrote:
| Not in a thousand years I would have expected CNN to start
| reporting on this.
|
| Hope they got some good lines responding to accusations on how
| every single one of them, including the janitors at the CNN
| Center in Atlanta are antisemitic.
|
| -"But we're not!" -"Aha, that's exactly what they always say,
| clearly a sign of guilt!" /s
| therobots927 wrote:
| Too little too late in order to save face now that the tide of
| public opinion has shifted
| axython wrote:
| For anyone commenting on this, I'll leave this: Official aid
| delivery reported by UN. I'd also assume this to be of the lower
| side, as there probably is more that doesn't get reported thorugh
| UN 27720 mechanism. I find the fact that this article does not
| use this or point to this data very questionable, but maybe I am
| wrong and I am imagining things.
|
| https://app.un2720.org/tracking
| jijijijij wrote:
| > Intercepted - Either _peacefully by hungry people_ or
| forcefully by armed actors, during transit in Gaza
|
| I presume you meant to suggest Hamas is bathing in baby
| formula, but your link isn't evidence for that. It could be
| desperate people doing desperate things, you know, because they
| are starving.
| WrongOnInternet wrote:
| In 1942, Jewish doctors conducted the Warsaw Ghetto Hunger Study
| used the man made famine to study the physiological and
| psychological effects of hunger.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Hunger_Study Not all
| scientific studies need to be replicated.
| yibg wrote:
| It's wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad
| things happen" to justify the situation. Weird that it needs to
| be said, but this is why war crimes are a thing. Just because
| it's an armed conflict, doesn't mean anything goes.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| It's war initiated by Hamas, and since it losses, they try to
| throw the blame on Israel. Hamas needs to release the hostages
| and disarm and the war will end, Israel have said so many times
| before including the latest Trump deal.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _It 's war initiated by Hamas_
|
| Takes two to tango. Hamas started the war. Israel has
| continued it _way_ past where it made sense. (No later than
| after Sinwar was killed.)
| istjohn wrote:
| Gaza has been under blockade since 2007, and the roots of
| the conflict date back to the founding of the Zionist
| Organization by Theodor Herzl in 1897 with the purpose to
| facilitate the escape of Jews from persecution in Eastern
| Europe by establishing a colony in Palestine. Israel has
| persecuted the indigenous people of Palestine ever since.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the roots of the conflict date back to the founding of
| the Zionist Organization by Theodor Herzl in 1897 with
| the purpose to facilitate the escape of Jews from
| persecution in Eastern Europe by establishing a colony in
| Palestine_
|
| Please, the roots of this conflict go back millenia.
| Nothing done in the last hundred years have helped it.
| And the Palestinian people keep getting fucked by outside
| powers using them for their own ends, whether it be the
| Arab countries invading Israel or Iran having their sock
| puppets invite bombs. But it's a bit silly to imagine
| that if we poofed Israel and turned Israel & Palestine
| into a democracy that we wouldn't, within like two
| minutes, start seeing missiles flying.
| Cyph0n wrote:
| > within like two minutes, start seeing missiles flying.
|
| And that's worse than the current situation how exactly?
|
| In fact, it would be objectively better because there
| would be justice: no apartheid, no occupation, no tiered
| citizenship, and no blockade.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _that's worse than the current situation how exactly?_
|
| Uh, look at the civil wars in Sudan, Ethiopia and Burma.
|
| > _it would be objectively better because there would be
| justice: no apartheid, no occupation, no tiered
| citizenship, and no blockade_
|
| What? Why do you think changing borders on paper has any
| effect on how the people actually on the ground feel
| about and treat each other?
|
| We're not half a decade out from our withdrawal from
| Afghanistan and we're back to the notion that remote
| powers drawing lines on a map somehow dictatates reality
| in the Middle East?
| Cyph0n wrote:
| First, ending an occupation and apartheid is not
| "changing borders". You are maliciously oversimplifying
| the situation in Palestine.
|
| Second, are you seriously saying that people's feelings
| have nothing to do with injustices waged upon them by
| force?
|
| And just to add one thing - the theoretical worsening of
| a situation in response to ending injustice never
| justifies the maintaining of said injustice. You can
| argue this point all you want, but it will never be true.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _ending an occupation and apartheid is not "changing
| borders"_
|
| "Poof[ing] Israel and turned Israel & Palestine into a
| democracy" literally is.
|
| > _are you seriously saying that people's feelings have
| nothing to do with injustices waged upon them by force?_
|
| Nope.
|
| > _the theoretical worsening of a situation in response
| to ending injustice never justifies the maintaining of
| said injustice_
|
| I'm not talking about justification. Famine is
| unjustified. The war is unjustified.
|
| I'm saying Y would be worse than X. That is true. It
| doesn't justify X. But it does make Y stupid.
| stale2002 wrote:
| > way past where it made sense.
|
| If they don't destroy Hamas now, then a war will happen
| again in another 10 years. At which point 10s of thousands
| of palestinians will needlessly die, again. The only
| resolution to all of this, will happen when Hamas is
| completely disarmed and out of power.
|
| You can criticize how Israel goes about achieving that
| goal. But that goal is the only one that gets to a real,
| permanent peace.
| ath3nd wrote:
| You are basically saying that regardless of criticisms
| and international condemnation, Israel has no choice but
| commit war crimes and genocide? This is like "look what
| you made me do" defence in court, not sure it will save
| genocider Netanyahu from rotting in the Hague jail.
|
| Nor would it stop us from boycotting Israel and calling
| out their genocide.
| stale2002 wrote:
| > Israel has no choice
|
| Yeah thats basically how thing will end up. Because if
| they dont get rid of Hamas now, they will end up in
| another war and end up killing 10s of thousands of more
| Palestinians later. Thats just what would happen.
|
| I mean, people are saying Israel is doing a genocide now
| right? If thats the case, why wouldn't they just do a
| genicide again if another October 7th happened? Obviously
| thats what they would do.
|
| > Nor would it stop us
|
| You don't have to stop doing anything. Just realize that
| they have a modern military that they are going to
| continue to use to kill their enemy until that enemy has
| surrendered or been destroyed. Thats the only way this
| ends.
|
| The only question is how many people have to die and how
| much of gaza has to be flattened in order to achieve that
| outcome. Boycotts aren't going to stop anything. Nor will
| condemnation. The only thing that would come close is
| serious military action, but well would you look at that,
| every major of enemy of Israel is now destroyed, from
| Syria to Hezbollah to Iran. Military action seems rather
| unlikely now, given how successful Israel was in
| obliterating every enemy it has in the area.
|
| So, the people of palestine are left with choice. Accept
| peace, or watch as Israel keeps killing people until
| Hamas is gone for good.
|
| > rotting in the Hague jail.
|
| Even if this fantasy land future did come to past, trials
| don't bring back the dead. If Israel has to kill another
| 50 thousand people to get rid of Hamas (because a peace
| deal with rejected), well those 50k genocide victims are
| still dead. The world's not turning on a dime here.
| Nobody is coming to save palestine. Boycotts don't stop
| bombs.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _only question is how many people have to die and how
| much of gaza has to be flattened in order to achieve that
| outcome. Boycotts aren 't going to stop anything. Nor
| will condemnation_
|
| I agree with the last part of this sentiment: boycotts
| and weapons-sale bans won't stop Israel.
|
| But they will decrease its wealth and power in the long
| term. That should be something Tel Aviv seeks to avoid.
| Eliminating Hamas should not require inducing a famine.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _If they don 't destroy Hamas now, then a war will
| happen again in another 10 years_
|
| Sure. Destroying Hamas doesn't require starving children.
| Let food in. Keep targeting Hamas.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| It is not possible to destroy an idea with violence. The
| more palestinians you shoot or starve the stronger Hamas
| will be when it returns. The only way for Israel to get
| real, permanent peace is probably removing all the
| palestinians which is why they are currently engaged in a
| genocide.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _It is not possible to destroy an idea with violence.
| The more palestinians you shoot or starve the stronger
| Hamas will be when it returns_
|
| One, lots of ideas have been destroyed by violence across
| history. When a nation with an oral tradition of history
| is exterminated, their ideas quite literally die with
| them.
|
| Two, it's not a given that Palestinians will be
| terrorists. Eliminating Hamas gives room for other,
| better ideas around resistance to rise.
| yibg wrote:
| > better ideas around resistance to rise.
|
| What might those be? What other types of resistance
| hasn't already been tried and failed there?
| yibg wrote:
| A lot of problems with this.
|
| 1) As long as Israel treats Palestinians the way they
| current do, there will always be another Hamas. That or
| completely remove Palestinians from the area, which seems
| to be the current goal. So no, completely destroying
| hamas is not the only way to get to a real permanent
| peace.
|
| 2) How Israel is going about things is the exact issue at
| hand. You can't just hand wave it away.
|
| 3) Let's say for the sake of argument destroying Hamas IS
| the only way to achieve long lasting peace, how much
| death and destruction does it justify? 10% of the
| population? 20%? 50%?. So again just because it's an
| armed conflict, doesn't mean anything goes.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _As long as Israel treats Palestinians the way they
| current do, there will always be another Hamas_
|
| Eh, Trump's peace deal isn't great for Palestinians. But
| it gives them peace and a path to more peace in the
| future, and paths where considering options for
| resistance other than terrorism may flourish.
|
| > _Let 's say for the sake of argument destroying Hamas
| IS the only way to achieve long lasting peace, how much
| death and destruction does it justify? 10% of the
| population?_
|
| Yikes. Based on precedent, I don't think countries have
| typically put an upper bound on this figure. I think a
| better question might be what's the upper bound on
| civilian deaths that should not be required to be
| exceeded if Hamas has to be routed out by force.
| Cyph0n wrote:
| Replace Palestinians with Black South Africans, and
| imagine this offer was made in 1990 to the ANC, then
| reread your comment.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Replace Palestinians with Black South Africans, and
| imagine this offer was made in 1990 to the ANC_
|
| Black South Africans weren't _de facto_ surrendering in a
| militarised conflict.
|
| The ANC resorted to small-scale terrorism [1]. (It didn't
| work.) If the ANC had launched an October 7th scale
| attack, not only would it have derailed the international
| pressure that ended Apartheid, but in the likely ensuing
| civil war, yes, one side would have probably been forced
| to unconditionally surrender.
|
| The practical options on the table are war and peace. If
| you're losing this badly, you take peace. _Then_ you
| litigate over war crimes, _et cetera_. Gaza has no seat
| at the table because there is currently nobody to take
| the seat, that 's what peace gives them. (I'd be shocked
| if Gazans, in a plebescite, rejected this deal. The only
| people who win by continuing this are Hamas and Likud.)
|
| [1] https://markhumphrys.com/anc.violence.html
| Cyph0n wrote:
| > But that didn't help and would have derailed the
| international pressure that did end Apartheid if it had
| escalated into a single attack with a thousand
| casualties.
|
| Let's stick to the facts instead of coming up with
| conclusions out of thin air.
|
| And your understanding is wrong: the ANC gained freedom
| for South Africans _because_ of its decision to resort to
| violence. Mandela and the ANC did not make this decision
| lightly, but it was a decision of last resort. The same
| applies to other African independence movements.
|
| > Gaza has no seat at the table because there is
| currently nobody to take the seat, that's what peace
| gives them.
|
| They have no seat at the table because: a) they saw what
| a "seat" resulted in (Oslo and then limbo) and b) the
| response to their democratically gained "seat" was a coup
| by Fatah backed by the US and Israel.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the ANC gained freedom for South Africans because of
| its decision to resort to violence_
|
| This is a genuinely ambiguous question--I respect your
| position. What we can agree to is there were no large-
| scale terrorist attacks leading up to the negotations
| that ended Apartheid. (The Boipatong massacre almost did,
| and that was forty something casualties.)
|
| > _the response to their democratically gained "seat" was
| a coup by Fatah backed by the US and Israel_
|
| This is entirely accurate. It's also a fact that Hamas
| proceeded to never hold an election again. (Which isn't
| grounds for ignoring them. October 7th is.)
|
| Hamas can't credibly represent Gaza. It continues to call
| for the destruction of Israel. It's shown a complete lack
| of concern for its own civilians. And it has no evidence
| of a popular mandate.
|
| Gazans need a seat at the table. They can only get that
| through peace.
| yibg wrote:
| History there has shown that other types of resistance
| don't work very well. Just need to look at the west bank.
| No Hamas, no rockets being lobbed into Israel and yes
| peace as long as the people there put up with their land
| being taken over arbitrarily, being beaten or killed at
| some frequency and just in general being treated as a
| lower tier of humans.
| Cyph0n wrote:
| They are not going to be able eliminate or disarm Hamas
| by force. Heck, they only were able to "rescue" the vast
| majority of hostages via negotiation.
|
| The only way forward is negotiation.
| dotancohen wrote:
| > Hamas started the war. Israel has continued it way past
| where it made sense.
|
| The war will continue to make sense until the hostages are
| returned. When Hamas believes that the war no longer makes
| sense, then they are invited to return the hostages and the
| war will end.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| I would go as far as to say that the very existence of Hamas
| is due to the actions of Israel.
|
| Do you think that Israel, with the most advanced intelligence
| agency in the world, capable of planting bombs in pagers just
| in case for when they need them, _did not know about_ the
| october 7 attack beforehand ??
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Do you think that Israel, with the most advanced
| intelligence agency in the world, capable of planting bombs
| in pagers just in case for when they need them, did not
| know about the october 7 attack beforehand ??_
|
| Yes. Quite easily. We missed 9/11. And nobody can still
| find Al Houthi.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| 9/11 is incomparable. The amount of resources and
| interest Israel has to monitor the movements of
| Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere, particularly the
| Hamas, cannot possibly compare with US trying to keep
| tabs on half a continent across the globe.
|
| And finding a simple person that could be anywhere is
| also an incomparable situation.
| skatingaway wrote:
| Bush was warned about 9/11 in a memo in august. It
| explicitly said al qaeda was planning to use commercial
| planes. Bush knew.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Bush was warned about 9 /11 in a memo in august. It
| explicitly said al qaeda was planning to use commercial
| planes. Bush knew_
|
| You're really hanging your hat on the competence of
| American intelligence in the Middle East for this one?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| 9/11 was different. Yes, that's the difference. airport
| security was more lax, the way we dealt with hijackings
| was different, and the security on airplanes was minimal.
|
| You had a heavily fortified military DMZ between the
| massive surveillance and military state of Israel and
| Hamas flying in with kites, bulldozers, and motorcycles.
| I hope it was merely a massive failure due to arrogance
| and misallocation of resources, because a plausible
| alternative is sadly realistic and believable.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| We still don't have a comprehensive map of Hamas' tunnel
| systems. I think you're overestimating the degree to
| which 2 million people can be surveilled.
| yibg wrote:
| Perhaps not, but it doesn't help when Israel demonstrates
| with pretty high frequency the ability to precisely
| target things, but then goes and drops a couple of 2000
| pound bombs on a refugee camp. Or claim they know
| precisely how many hamas fighters have been killed but
| have no idea how many civilians have been killed.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Oh sure. I'm just saying that yes, it's overwhelmingly
| plausible that Israel missed October 7th because
| Netanyahu was distracted with his court-overhaul gambit.
| protocolture wrote:
| What was crazy about that, was seemingly the majority of
| Israels active military personnel were stirring up trouble
| in the west bank. Its a bit like they were showing their
| bare arses to Hamas. There were stories over the next few
| days about conscripts having to take civilian transport to
| the front line after activating.
|
| The war had to be fought hard, because at the very least it
| was required to distract from the absolute mess the IDF was
| in when it started.
| phgn wrote:
| It's not, this conflict was started by Israel in 1948. The
| current genocide is just the most extreme phase of an
| ongoing, highly unequal, struggle since then.
|
| Hamas releasing hostages will not end the genocide. Look at
| how the last ceasefire was intentionally broken by Israel.
| yibg wrote:
| This is just a variant of "it's war, bad things happen", with
| the addition of "they started it".
|
| Putting the debate of who started what aside, does someone
| starting a war justify war crimes against them?
|
| - who started what
|
| - specific conditions to end things
|
| - who agrees to what
|
| All of these are distractions. The core issues are, are there
| war crimes being committed or not? Is the population of Gaza
| starving or not? If so, is Israel actively contributing or
| deliberately causing the situation or not?
|
| EDIT: this is a good example of how collective punishment is
| being justified, to blame the population of Gaza for the
| actions (or inaction) of Hamas. "Well, if they just do X,
| then they wouldn't have to starve".
| buyucu wrote:
| Israel has killed more civilians in a year, than Hamas has in
| its entire existence.
|
| This was has been initiated by Israel invading Palestine.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad
| things happen" to justify the situation_
|
| The point is to distinguish this war from how others have been
| fought. A lot of accusations against the IDF's conduct have
| been baseless. Not wrong in that they're factually incorrect.
| Just wrong in that it's how everyone else fights wars when they
| go to war.
|
| This is different. America didn't trigger a famine in Iraq or
| Afghanistan, and it's not like we fought those wars honorably.
| _That_ is where it 's worth answering the question, is this
| just war or is this worse.
| ge96 wrote:
| I've seen air dropping videos, if random countries were to try
| that would they be at risk of being shot down, probably right for
| violating air space (cough cough).
| csb6 wrote:
| Yes, airdrops are only done with permission from Israel since
| they control Gaza airspace (they have for decades). But
| airdrops are not an efficient way to feed millions of people
| (and the pallets have killed multiple people by landing on
| them). Shipping by truck allows a much larger volume much
| faster, and the UN has experience doing so, but they have been
| largely blocked from doing so for months by Israel, which runs
| its own much less efficient aid operation with many fewer
| distribution points guarded by mercenaries who regularly kill
| aid seekers who often have to travel long distances through
| dangerous areas.
| mrbonner wrote:
| The horror that starvation inflicts on the human mind is beyond
| comparison. My grandfather experienced this firsthand when he
| fled from the Japanese invasion, an occupation that stripped
| civilians of their food supply. He helplessly watched as his
| parents, relatives, and even his older brother succumbed one by
| one to hunger. Barely escaping the same fate, he fled the country
| just before starvation could claim his own life.
|
| When I was eight years old, I asked him why he always kept a room
| filled with dried cassava root. His reply was simple but
| unforgettable: dying from starvation is the most terrifying
| experience imaginable, and he was determined never to endure it
| again.
| jijijijij wrote:
| Starvation may also cause epigenetic and metabolic changes,
| which persist and are even passed to next generations. In
| children tissue dystrophy is particular damaging, since their
| bodies are still developing. Starvation is a really fucking bad
| thing.
| just-the-wrk wrote:
| I think the most amazing part of the comments is how much the
| sentiment has changed over the last 2 years. Is anybody else
| noticing this?
| notnaut wrote:
| Plausible deniability dried up as the blatantly skewed results
| of this "conflict" became impossible to ignore.
| chakintosh wrote:
| > How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza
|
| Way to whitewash a genocide. The title make it sound like the
| famine is accidental or an unintended consequence of Israel's
| "actions". While in reality, it's the sole purpose of what Israel
| is doing in Gaza for years, they are conducting a genocide, plain
| and simple.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Is there any difference between carrying it out and intending
| to carry it out if given the chance? _From the river to the
| sea?_
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Way to whitewash a genocide_
|
| I honestly think invoking the g- word is harmful to the
| Palestinian cause at this point.
|
| It's a war. There are war crimes. Maybe there's genocidal
| intent. But that seems like a distraction compared to actual
| harm on the ground.
| phgn wrote:
| The UN calls it a genocide now. What evidence more do you
| need?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _UN calls it a genocide now_
|
| One, really important to specify that the Independent
| International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied
| Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel
| said this, not the UN as a whole. "The UN" is generally
| held to be the General Assembly.
|
| Two, I'm not disputing that it probably is a genocide. I'm
| just saying that people have been calling it a genocide
| well before we had evidence it was one. As a result, the
| term has lost moral weight.
|
| Put another way, I don't think support for Palestine
| increases by calling it a genocide again. I _do_ think it
| increases by showing, specifically, what the famine means
| for the kids on the ground can change hearts and minds.
| (Nobody, at this point, is probably going to be swung on a
| fundamental opinion. People may, however, re-prioritise
| this politically.)
| ipaddr wrote:
| It was called a genocide early on because of the
| disregard for civilian life but it doesn't become one
| until everyone dies. The more accurate term is war
| crimes.
|
| At this point public opinion matters less than existing
| relationships.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _It was called a genocide early on because of the
| disregard for civilian life but it doesn 't become one
| until everyone dies_
|
| The Holocaust was a genocide. It didn't exterminate the
| Jews.
|
| > _more accurate term is war crimes_
|
| Agree.
|
| > _At this point public opinion matters less than
| existing relationships_
|
| What do you mean?
| phgn wrote:
| Two numbers on the effectiveness of that strategy:
|
| 680.000 and 380.000.
|
| The total number of Palestinians murdered, and the number of
| those who were kids under 5 years old.
|
| source: https://arena.org.au/politics-of-counting-gazas-dead/
| m101 wrote:
| These numbers are just false. Even the Hamas numbers are 10x
| less than this!
| sharkjacobs wrote:
| What are the numbers then?
| ngruhn wrote:
| 440+ according to Wikipedia. Only a lower bound I guess.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine
|
| EDIT: only due to starvation
| phgn wrote:
| Who is left in Gaza to count or report all the dead? The
| people who die of famine?
|
| Official numbers have increased by less than 20.000 in the
| last year of genocide. Isn't that curious?
| dlubarov wrote:
| It's not as if Hamas is only counting hospital/morgue
| records. There's a Google form where any Gazan can report a
| casualty.
|
| The drop is to be expected, since the fighting was much
| more intense in earlier phases of the war.
| some_guy_nobel wrote:
| Small thought exercise: What if the numbers were real? Would
| that change any of your stances/views? Would you self-reflect
| and consider that you had been tricked into spreading lies at
| the expense of thousands of lives?
|
| Maybe it helps to start smaller. Many (Israeli's) have told
| me that the IDF is the world's most 'honest' military - one
| that even warns buildings before they're bombed!
|
| Then, you can imagine how difficult it was for me to
| reconcile that with many facts from the ground. Here's one.
| Only one. The Rafah paramedic massacre:
|
| "Israel at first claimed that the medics' vehicles did not
| have emergency signals on when troops opened fire but later
| backtracked. Cellphone video recovered from one of the medics
| contradicted Israel's initial account."[0]
|
| Is that a one-off lie?
|
| 0: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/20/nx-s1-5370617/israeli-
| probe-k...
| danielbenzvi1 wrote:
| Let me turn the mirror around a bit. If numbers or
| incidents turn out to be false, exaggerated, or stripped of
| context, would you also self-reflect and consider that you
| might have been tricked into spreading lies - at the
| expense of Israelis whose lives are also on the line?
|
| Of course, militaries make mistakes and sometimes issue
| wrong statements, just as governments everywhere do in the
| fog of war. The Rafah paramedic case you cite is tragic,
| and investigations matter. But a single flawed or retracted
| statement doesn't prove a systematic policy of "lying" or
| "massacre" just as one instance of misconduct in any
| country's army doesn't automatically invalidate its overall
| values or procedures.
|
| if we're going to judge Israel by its errors, we should
| also weigh the context in which those errors happen (urban
| warfare, Hamas embedding itself in civilian areas, use of
| ambulances to smuggle fighters or weapons, etc.). And we
| should also judge Hamas by its admitted policies -
| deliberately targeting civilians, embedding in hospitals,
| rejecting coexistence.
|
| If we're honest, both of us need to be open to the
| possibility that our sources and interpretations can be
| incomplete or biased. Real reflection means asking hard
| questions in both directions - not only of Israelis, not
| only of Palestinians.
| some_guy_nobel wrote:
| You're right that there are two sides to every story,
| things aren't black-and-white.
|
| To your first point, I've already agreed that the numbers
| seem faulty. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking
| me to consider, beyond suspending belief. 60k people did
| die on the low end, many of them children.
|
| From an outsider's perspective, the killing of 60k people
| in a small, corralled environment, many of which are
| children, says everything that can be said about the
| actor in question. This is without the additional context
| of years of West Bank occupations, experiencing the crazy
| two-tiered apartheid like system that is Israel (I've
| visited and was personally quite shocked), and other
| things.
|
| Is Hamas terrible? Certainly. Would they do the same to
| Israel if they had the capabilities? Probably. But that
| doesn't change the facts on the ground.
| alborzb wrote:
| I'm not sure why you're being down-voted... But here's two
| credible sources:
|
| Reuters estimates the deaths at 60,000 [
| https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-
| palestini... ]
|
| The UN estimates it to be at about 65,000 [
| https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-
| gaz... ]
|
| Neither of which are around 600 thousand as the previous
| commenter posted. The French News Channel called France24 did
| a quick video explaining the current fake news that certain
| NGOs are spreading with misleading death counts --
| https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-
| fake/20250624-...
| phgn wrote:
| Because the linked article clearly states why the official
| numbers are not accurate in the authors opinions.
|
| Also "These numbers are just false" is not a valid
| argument.
| m101 wrote:
| Hello again.
|
| Saying it's false is a valid argument against something
| completely ludicrous like 680,000 dead. If you expect
| everyone to come up with "valid arguments" for blindingly
| obvious things then it is _you_ who is not carrying out
| polite conversation (as per your other comments)
| m101 wrote:
| Are you surprised I'm being downvoted? I'm working towards
| my 500 karma so I can also start downvoting obvious
| nonsense like that comment but publicly correcting nonsense
| craters your karma.
| some_guy_nobel wrote:
| Well, these numbers are from July, and from that very first
| article:
|
| "Official Palestinian tallies of direct deaths in the Gaza
| war likely undercounted the number of casualties by around
| 40% in the first nine months of the war as Gaza's
| healthcare infrastructure unravelled, according to a peer-
| reviewed study published in The Lancet journal in January."
|
| Still, from those numbers, it seems difficult to stretch
| from 60k to 600k.
|
| That said, even if you take the absolute tail number, 60k,
| how anyone can defend a genocide of 60k people in a land
| area smaller than Portland, in less than a year, is
| reprehensible. Especially when many of those are children.
| Almost one child murdered every 10 minutes, at the low end,
| for an entire year?
| screye wrote:
| I haven't seen any numbers exceeding 100k. Where did you get
| 600k from ?
|
| the article is taking projections and applying multiple
| extrapolations to them. It is a bad estimate.
|
| The current estimates are between 53000 - 66000. About 10x
| lower than what you propose.
| phgn wrote:
| I got them from the article which I linked in my comment.
| screye wrote:
| I read the article. It piled about 5 different assumptions
| on top of each other.
|
| It takes the upper bound for the deaths in the first 9
| months. Then extrapolates it linearly to the last 2.5
| years. Then multiplies it by 4, because it estimates that
| starvation deaths must be 4x.
|
| At that point, why even guess ?
| m101 wrote:
| It might also be that Hamas intimidates people that go to food
| distribution sites, shoot at Israeli soldiers from within crowds
| of people, and also shoot at Gazan's to make it look like it was
| Israelis. The lows Hamas are capable of is beyond normal
| comprehension.
| phgn wrote:
| Mhh, what if we let enough food into Gaza so that everyone can
| survive?
|
| Why would Hamas have any reason to steal food then?
| m101 wrote:
| Did you know that the population of Gaza has actually
| _increased_ since the start of the conflict?
| phgn wrote:
| Could you please link a source for that piece of
| information?
| m101 wrote:
| No.
|
| 1) finding some place on the internet that represents any
| view is possible
|
| 2) I don't believe in doing all the leg work for others
| for everything I say in person, so why online. This is
| not Wikipedia.
|
| 3) more often than not with people whether you give a
| source makes little difference
|
| https://www.memedroid.com/memes/tag/source
| phgn wrote:
| This is not how discussions work on Hacker News, and it's
| also very impolite.
|
| We care about facts, and evidence for arguments here.
| jampekka wrote:
| This talking point is false.
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/01/middleeast/israel-
| populat...
| buyucu wrote:
| The lows Israel is capable of is beyond normal comprehension.
|
| Fixed that for you.
| pat64 wrote:
| I generally use conversations on this topic as a litmus test for
| a group or community. I'm pretty disappointed by all the
| whatabout-ism and false equivalence.
|
| I expected better from HN.
|
| We can study why this happened later. The genocide needs to stop
| _now_.
| sys32768 wrote:
| If the world would stop rewarding Hamas for using its civilians
| and children as propaganda, they might actually surrender.
|
| Let Greta and the world start shouting at Hamas to surrender
| instead of shouting at Israel for fighting a foe who wants them
| obliterated.
|
| According to the unrevoked 1988 Hamas Charter:
|
| "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
| obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
| ipaddr wrote:
| Benjamin Netanyahu funded Hamas in the 90s. So this is where we
| are.
|
| If they allowed the PLO to manage we would have two states
| already.
| danielbenzvi1 wrote:
| The idea that simply empowering the PLO would have produced
| peace ignores the reality of what happened when they were
| empowered. After Oslo, Israel handed over cities in the West
| Bank and gave the Palestinian Authority control in Gaza.
| Instead of building the foundations of a peaceful state, the
| PLO leadership became riddled with corruption, failed to
| create functioning institutions, and tolerated or even
| encouraged waves of violence. The Second Intifada, launched
| under the PLO's watch, was one of the bloodiest chapters in
| the conflict and shattered Israeli trust in their willingness
| or ability to deliver peace.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of
| Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas.
|
| He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority.
| When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path
| to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also
| conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political
| ends.
|
| You might argue the PA was corrupt, etc. But that status quo was
| far better than what exists now.
| glenngillen wrote:
| The most recent episode of John Oliver goes further and says he
| actively funded Hamas to destabilise the area and cause
| problems for the PA.
| LightBug1 wrote:
| Yep, Netanyahu used Hamas' existence as a political tool to
| divide Palestinians, weaken peace efforts, and maintain
| Israeli control.
|
| He let Qatari cash find its way to Hamas.
| danielbenzvi wrote:
| Calling the old PA-led status quo "far better" ignores how
| dysfunctional and destructive it was. The PA was given
| territory, money, and international legitimacy after Oslo, yet
| instead of building a transparent, functioning state, it became
| notorious for corruption, power struggles, and failing to
| deliver basic services. Worse, during that same period, suicide
| bombings and the Second Intifada erupted under its watch, so
| for ordinary Israelis, that "status quo" meant buses, cafes,
| and markets being blown up.
|
| Even for Palestinians, the PA's rule was hardly a path to peace
| or progress. Billions in foreign aid were stolen by elites,
| elections were canceled, dissent was crushed, and everyday life
| was marked by both authoritarianism and insecurity. So while
| today's Hamas reality is undeniably worse, pretending the old
| PA era was some kind of lost golden path to peace overlooks
| that it was already a dead end for both peoples.
| machina_ex_deus wrote:
| Nethanyahu didn't vote for Hamas, the Palestinians did, and
| they did it while the party in power in Israel was kadima,
| which just gave the Palestinians gaza literally for free.
|
| Shortly after the election Hamas murdered the Fatah in Gaza and
| those elections were the last time the Palestinians had a say
| over who controls Gaza.
|
| Nethanyahu only after the 7th of October decided that letting
| hamas rule Gaza is unacceptable, and this decision was only
| made after the terrible cost.
|
| There Palestinians simply preferred hamas and terrorism over
| the PLO and relative peace in the one historical vote they were
| given. The situation might've changed since then. Making deals
| of two state solution when that second state could turn into
| another hamas state overnight would be an even bigger mistake.
|
| The Palestinians can't barely make peace with themselves,
| between Fatah and hamas and agree to resolve their political
| conflicts in peace rather than armed conflict. When that's the
| case you can hardly blame Israel that they can't make peace.
| They need to commit to non violence between themselves before
| it's possible to commit to non violence with their enemies.
|
| There's also a generation of Palestinians who's never even
| voted in Palestinian elections because there weren't elections
| in a decade.
| LightBug1 wrote:
| "for free" ...
|
| You're quite literally showing your ass there.
|
| And while I don't support Hamas at all (from my safe,
| comfortable chair in the West), I can understand why
| desperate people, whose land is increasingly stolen, whose
| rights are increasingly abused, and who cannot see their
| lives improve would turn (or be turned) to an organisation
| who would ultimately commit such abhorrent acts.
| machina_ex_deus wrote:
| In all objective measures of life quality, gaza was better
| off occupied by Israel, both compared with before 67
| (Israel's occupation made Gaza prosper relative to when it
| was controlled by Egypt), and compared with after hamas
| took over and forced Israel to isolate gaza increasingly in
| order to deal with the terrorism from Gaza.
|
| The only thing gaza didn't have under Israeli occupation
| was democratic election. And guess what, they didn't have
| that after the occupation stopped either. They don't have
| it in most Arabic countries either.
| bamboozled wrote:
| _I can understand why desperate people, whose land is
| increasingly stolen, whose rights are increasingly abused,
| and who cannot see their lives improve would turn (or be
| turned) to an organisation who would ultimately commit such
| abhorrent acts._
|
| There are a lot of examples of really bad stuff happening
| to groups of people over the centuries, very few of them
| have resorted to October 7 levels of horror.
|
| I'm not Jewish, but the soviets did some really horrific
| shit to our family, and we actually lost all our land, our
| whole livelihoods and strangely, no one in our family
| killed women or children over it.
|
| I can guarantee you that if the Palestinians / Hamas didn't
| do October 7, they would be in a much better position than
| they are now. 99% of people lost the ability to feel
| sympathy for them after that. Which is why Israel can
| basically make the plans.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| Israel gave Hamas seed funding back in the 1980s. They thought
| it would weaken the PLO. This was when the US funding the
| Taliban. Having pet Jihandis' was cool back then.
| saint_yossarian wrote:
| More details here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
| pbreit wrote:
| Hamas needs to be eradicated and Gaza needs to fall in line.
| Would be much better if the Gazans effected this. Fighting
| Israel is lunacy.
| Braxton1980 wrote:
| The people of Gaza fighting a terrorist group is also lunacy.
| They shouldn't be held responsible and if Israel can't fight
| Hamas without overwhelming causing suffering to the people of
| Gaza they shouldn't.
| pas wrote:
| do you happen to have a link to a helpful YouTube video
| tutorial on how to organize a coup against a terrorist state
| while starving to death in the middle of a total occupation?
| wffurr wrote:
| Fall in line with what exactly? Living under military
| occupation? Denied statehood by having their borders
| controlled? Being forcibly relocated out of Gaza?
|
| As the GP said, there needs to be an actual alternative.
| bamboozled wrote:
| I feel like you could say Ukraine were backed into a corner,
| multiple times, they didn't resort to October 7 levels of
| horror either. In fact, there is not a single documented case
| where they have attacked civilians or civilian infrastructure.
|
| So while I'm not closed to the idea that Netanyahu is a bad
| man. I find it hard to rationalize the actions of the people
| who were "backed into a corner"?
| jmyeet wrote:
| I'm not sure what the point of this is. "Do you want Hamas or
| the PA?" is like asking someone "do you want rotting meat or
| polluted drinking water?" Why are these the only two options?
|
| The PA is a captured extension of the Israeli security state.
| The PA is standing by while Israeli settlers systematically
| kill, chase off and terrorize Palestinians on the West Bank.
| IOF soldiers will idly stand by while a settler just comes up
| with a (government-supplied) gun, shoots a 60 year old farmer
| and then complains to the Army that the locals are harassing
| them.
| Humorist2290 wrote:
| So focusing on the details of the situation in Gaza is quite
| awful. The general tone of the comments in this thread, along
| with basically any public forum I think speaks for the
| reverberation of human suffering throughout this -- civilians are
| being made into casualties, Israeli and Palestinian, and it's
| terrible.
|
| Taking a broader perspective, large parts of the human race have
| come to realize famine is a relic of the past. Modern
| agriculture, synthetic fertilizer, and the technology of the last
| 100+ years has made famine optional. There is without a doubt the
| technological capacity to supply every person on earth with food
| and clean water. Nobody needs to go hungry to feed every person
| in Gaza. The same could be said of Sudan, or Bangladesh, or
| Haiti.
|
| 200 years ago, famine was usually a natural disaster; now it is
| almost exclusively a political choice.
| jmyeet wrote:
| Famine is political, always. The world produces a significant
| excess of food. The only reason famine exists is because one
| group of people is perfectly happy to starve another group of
| people. Gaza is not unique here although Gaza is a aprticularly
| egregious example of industrial mass starvation and death at
| the hands of a highly-developed military and state actor.
| onetimeusename wrote:
| There are articles about Israel planning for Gazans to emigrate
| for months. The idea is they would 'voluntarily' emigrate to
| several African countries Israel made deals with. So I think that
| is more proof the starvation is deliberate. They can claim they
| aren't forcing anyone to migrate but if you stay you die. Not
| only is that evil but they are forcing some other country to deal
| with the problem.
| asdefghyk wrote:
| Given , Hamas's previous actions of sacrificing Gaza people to
| try and achieve its ambitions, it should be noted that HAMAS
| could/would? be assisting the famine for their own (HAMAS)
| propaganda benefit .... ( Google the 4 w0rds Hamas sacrificng
| Gaza people produces lots articales )
|
| And why is there never any posted articles with criticism of
| Hamas? ( Even the comments have minimal criticism of Hamas? )
| Based on logical (to me) probabilities , both sides would be
| doing "Bad things"
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