[HN Gopher] Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander
___________________________________________________________________
Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander
Author : TheFreim
Score : 146 points
Date : 2025-09-26 22:17 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.masteringemacs.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.masteringemacs.org)
| thorncorona wrote:
| I owned a Moonlander before and found that the keyboard layout
| didn't matter much to my productivity.
|
| I have a Microsoft sculpt at work, and a macbook. The macbook
| keyboard has been great IME.
| dotancohen wrote:
| All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function
| keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple
| buckies every time I debug.
|
| The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and
| they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type
| (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses
| and repeating other button presses.
| UltraSane wrote:
| You can get a QMK keyboard and create a function key layer.
| miladyincontrol wrote:
| More than just one function layer at that. When customized
| sufficiently you can do far more, with less movement of the
| hands. Different actions on hold, tap dance as well as macros
| all really help minimize strain.
| UltraSane wrote:
| I was excited when I realized that combos and tap dance
| work together!
| dotancohen wrote:
| That sounds a lot more like a keyboard hobby, than a
| keyboard.
| squigz wrote:
| It's very basic customization of a tool you use all day for
| your job. This is a strange attitude to me coming from a
| programmer.
| qwerpy wrote:
| Some of us don't program that much anymore but because
| we're older, the ergonomic aspects of something like
| Moonlander are important. Ortholinear and split keyboard
| for me. But I still want to be able to hop into a
| terminal or IDE once in a while, without having to spend
| a bunch of time customizing keyboard shortcuts/layouts.
| So it's painful to be missing all those keys.
| dotancohen wrote:
| I used to customise my car, my keyboard, even my fountain
| pens. Now, I just want to use them. I bought a car that's
| quick enough to pass lumbering trucks on tight roads
| (Tesla Model 3), I bought a pen that fits my hand and
| writes comfortably (Jinhao A10 EF), and I'd love a
| keyboard like the Matias Ergo Pro that I don't need to
| replace every year.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need to
| replace the keyboard every year. And you only really have
| to customize the keyboard for a short while until it
| covers your personal needs.
|
| It took me maybe 1 week total after getting used to the
| keyboard to set it up in a way that worked for me
| personally, and the keyboard has already lasted a year
| and still works like new, and looks like new, and many
| people have had the same ergo-keyboard for years on end.
|
| I like you did not like the idea of having to finnick
| with it all the time, but in reality those are just the
| enthusiasts. I set it up in a couple weeks and ever since
| then I've probably only messed with it a few times more
| just to try something out of curiosity.
| UltraSane wrote:
| With QMK you can essentially program your keyboard to
| behave exactly how you want it to. This can be as simple as
| creating layers or getting into combos and tap dances and
| more advanced features. It is actually pretty fun when you
| get the hang of it.
|
| It makes perfect sense to customize the primary interface
| to computers.
| mkozlows wrote:
| It is! If you want a keyboard that you never think about, a
| programmable wacky layout keyboard is not for you.
|
| But if you use your keyboard a lot, keyboard hobbyism can
| be rewarding to a certain point.
| randlet wrote:
| Kinesis Freestyle Pro? I've got the non mechanical version
| (mechanical wasn't available when I purchased) and it's held up
| for many years. It's a great keyboard IMO.
| rince wrote:
| I really like my Kinesis Freestyle Edge with the tenting kit.
| I've been using it for around 2 years and no complaints.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Thank you, I'll take a look.
| Mindless2112 wrote:
| The Freestyle Pro is almost a good keyboard. The Esc and
| function keys are all offset to the left by one key compared
| to a standard layout, which drove me nuts. I have a Freestyle
| Edge RGB now, which I like much better. (Though I replaced
| the wrist rests with some from Goldtouch.)
| kyeb wrote:
| I find one modifier plus a home-row key to be much more
| comfortable than reaching several rows up for an F-key.
|
| The author's whole point here is that QMK (or ZMK, which I use)
| lets you customize it to exactly your own needs!
| dotancohen wrote:
| But then many keyboard shortcuts require four keys to be
| depressed all at once.
|
| Just for an example off the top of my head, in JetBrains IDEs
| the shortcut for hiding all tools is Ctrl-Shift-F12.
| snailmailman wrote:
| As much as i like the idea of these split keyboards that
| are more ergonomic, I can't get over the idea of missing
| keys and having to use chords or new combinations of
| hotkeys. I use nearly every key of my 104 key keyboard.
| Literally pause/break and scroll lock are the only ones I
| don't use; and I've remapped those to be volume controls.
| If anything, i'd like even more keys for macros and
| dedicated shortcuts.
|
| But so many keyboards cut that number down _so_
| drastically. I use home, end, delete, page up /down, _all
| the time_ not to mention the number pad as a whole, and all
| the Fkeys.
| tpmoney wrote:
| One of the nice things about QMK is the ability to get
| secondary functions on double / triple tap and press and
| hold combinations. I also couldn't get comfortable with
| big chording combos, so for example a lot of the keys in
| my thumb cluster do double duty.
|
| 1) My space key is right CTRL when held down.
|
| 2) I have two keys for "<RET>", one on each thumb
| cluster, one is Alt when held down, the other is left
| CTRL.
|
| 3) Page up and down have their own keys on one of those
| clusters because I no longer needed them for the
| modifiers, and so page up and down are also home and end
| if they're held down.
|
| 4) Auto shift is on, and I've tuned to to eliminate
| _most_ of the accidental shifts while keeping it
| relatively quick to type CONSTANT_VALUES (I actually
| still have shift keys in the usual positions but on the
| ergodox I have it feels like a big stretch to hit them
| and type so I use the auto-shift most of the time, but I
| do admit this is the convenience function I have the most
| love /hate relationship with)
|
| 5) The shift keys themselves give me open parentheses
| (left shift) and close parentheses (right shift) when
| double tapped.
|
| The only chording I have to do these days (that isn't
| normal keyboard shortcuts) is I have a dedicated key to
| switch to a layer for FN keys when held down. And the
| reality is I could (and should) probably map the number
| keys to be FN keys when double tapped since I don't think
| I ever hold an FN key down.
|
| This[1] isn't my most current layout (missing the
| home/end on the pageup/down buttons) but it's pretty much
| what I've landed on after about a year of using one of
| these. And realistically there are unused keys there I
| could remap still. The CTRL where the capslock key would
| be is never used in favor of the thumb cluster versions,
| the left and right CTRL keys on the tops of the two thumb
| clusters are leftovers from older layouts and unused
| right now. I've never used the "Meh" key or the "'" and
| "Capslock" keys in the lower left. The "Command-enter"
| and "[" and "]" keys in the lower right are another
| leftover from an older layout that are also unused now.
| So lots of room to play around still.
|
| Not saying you should definitely switch, there are still
| some things that I'm not 100% happy with (those inner
| symbol keys are a stretch sometimes and depending on what
| code I'm writing feel like I could move them around) and
| getting used to the ortholinear layout is a whole thing
| on its own. But if it's something that interests you,
| maybe that layout can help you find a good starting
| point.
|
| [1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-
| st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
| UltraSane wrote:
| you can make that a macro and assign it to a combo key set.
| mkozlows wrote:
| So a) that seems like a nightmare to me no matter what
| keyboard I'm on, but b) if you have frequently-used
| shortcuts that are a pita to get to, you can put them on a
| layer where you just use them.
|
| Like, I legitimately don't know anymore how you take a
| screenshot on MacOS, but I know that I hit the modifier key
| and then this one other key, and that takes a screenshot.
| Also don't know what you press to move from virtual screen
| to virtual screen, but mod-m and mod-comma go left and
| right for me. And in a browser, mod-s and mod-f do ctrl-
| shift-tab and ctrl-tab.
|
| It's a terrible idea to do this for rarely-used shortcuts,
| as you'll never remember them; but for ones you use
| frequently, it's better-than-native, because you can put
| them on convenient keys that are easy to hit, rather than
| whatever contortions you'd need to do to hit Ctrl-
| Shift-F12.
| bb88 wrote:
| Depending upon the cost and how much they mean to you there are
| a couple of options.
|
| One is to replace the switches. If they're hot swappable then
| it's easy. If they're not, it's hard -- but easy if you're
| willing to spend money on a desoldering iron. Depending upon
| your feelings here, I would consider it maintenance to keep it
| going if you love it -- particularly if you use it to prevent
| RSI.
|
| A quick look shows matias does sell replacement switches --
| which is usually the thing to go. Springs, crud, etc end up in
| the switches. Sometimes you can tear them apart to fix them,
| sometimes it's easier to toss them and replace them.
|
| The typical desoldering tool for keyboards is something like
| this:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/ENGINEER-Engineer-Solder-Suction-SS-0...
|
| They also have things like this that are maybe more functional
| than trying to do it two handed:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/zycllycx-Electric-Automatic-Desolderi...
|
| But the hakko is the gold standard here. If you have keyboards
| you absolutely love but are soldered, this is the way to go.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FR-301-Portable-Desoldering-Too...
| dotancohen wrote:
| I meant that I am looking for a keyboard, not for a keyboard
| hobby.
|
| Hahaha who am I kidding? Of course I have a keyboard hobby! I
| have a practical museum of various split and mechanical
| keyboards. But I don't want to be soldering them any more.
| bb88 wrote:
| I think the trick these days is find a layout you like with
| hot swappable cherry mx switches that have a qmx/via style
| configurator.
|
| Then you can configure the buttons however you want.
|
| Or you know... go build your own. It's fun. I built my own
| keypad and learned a bunch of stuff.
| dotancohen wrote:
| I get that you're trying to be helpful, but I meant that
| I am looking for a keyboard. Not for a keyboard hobby.
| BlaDeKke wrote:
| Something tells me that you're not looking for a keyboard
| hobby.
| bb88 wrote:
| There's a certain trend to repairing existing electronics
| and keeping electronics waste out of landfills, right to
| repair and what not -- and that's the spirit I was
| talking about.
|
| Even hot swap switches prevent more landfill waste as it
| makes it easy for people to replace bad switches. And if
| you want a reliable keyboard in the future, that's what
| you'll need, other wise it will just be more e-waste.
|
| Owning 20 cars and maintaining them is a hobby. Owning 1
| car and maintaining it is not -- it's life.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Oh, I've soldered my share of keyboards. But only in
| repairs, not in actually building one from scratch.
| FridgeSeal wrote:
| I have a Moonlander and I genuinely don't understand why so
| many split keyboards do this.
|
| "Here's a really nice split keyboard. But we've removed
| everything except the alphanumerics"
|
| Whhhyyyy.
|
| "Oh but it's programmable. And you can have layers. And you can
| have macros"
|
| Cool. I actually didn't want any of that. I just wanted a
| single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make
| space for a "meh" key, a "caps word" key, 3 keys in 2
| variations for "change layer" but a play/pause/ volume keys are
| simply out of the question.
| qwerpy wrote:
| I completely agree. Moonlander would be perfect with a F key
| row and dedicated modifier keys. The purists will sneer, but
| they could always take off the keycaps and switches if they
| want to show off how minimal they are.
|
| I don't spend all my time in vim, my job is mostly emails and
| docs now. Muscle memory decays for all the fancy
| chords/layers/macros/etc and I don't have infinite time to
| spend tweaking keyboard layouts.
| grepex wrote:
| I added a numeric layer where my left thumb activates the
| layer key and the numbers are arranged like a numpad on my
| right half. The dedicated number keys at the top row are
| now f keys. Highly recommend
| qwerpy wrote:
| Interesting idea. Thanks
| dotancohen wrote:
| That's an interesting idea. But it makes _other_ key
| combinations quadruple buckies. For instance, in
| JetBrains IDEs Ctrl-Shift-4 sets bookmark number 4.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| You don't need infinite time, you just need to do it until
| you get all your personal needs covered.
|
| Personally I have an advantage 360 pro. The only function
| keys I actually use with frequency are F12 and F2, used for
| shortcuts in editors. I just put F12 and F2 on thumb keys.
| Problem solved.
|
| Some people go all in on layers, but I actually use minimal
| layers at all. I can do everything I need with just the
| base layer from how I have it setup. I only have a second
| layer setup that allows using VIM-like navigation (i.e. up,
| down, left, right, page-down, page-up etc) from the home
| row in my browser. But technically I also have those on the
| base layer just in the normal positions.
|
| I actually had a similar mindset, I do not want to have to
| create tons of layers and combinations, so I optimized my
| layout around just the base layout but added a layer just
| for convenience later on.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Onions have layers. Cakes have layers. Ogres have layers. I
| do not want layers on my keyboard.
| zie wrote:
| You might try the UHK 80:
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/uhk80
|
| I have the UHK 60 and I really like it, except as you mentioned
| no function keys.
|
| The software is pretty good, includes a little DSL and you can
| do pretty much anything you want.
| sorahn wrote:
| I couldn't quite go for the 60%, but I have friends with the
| UHK60 and I really liked it as a keyboard.
|
| I popped for the 80 as soon as the shipping times caught up
| to real time. It's a fantastic keyboard. I haven't gotten any
| of the clusters for it yet, but I'm very happy with my
| purchase.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Looks great, thank you!
| dimator wrote:
| Not sure if it's been mentioned, but keychron make split
| keyboards:
|
| https://www.keychron.com/collections/split-keyboards
|
| I'm not sure if they're in stock, but it's a lovely keyboard
| with dead simple programmability.
| el_benhameen wrote:
| I got one on Amazon for a little over retail and it's a solid
| keyboard. I had a knockoff 65 before and you can definitely
| tell the difference in quality. I believe Microcenter has
| them in stock if you're in the Bay.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Looks like a good choice, thank you!
| bsmith wrote:
| I love my Dygma Defy: https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy
| dotancohen wrote:
| Thanks, but the Defy lacks Function keys.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| These kinds of keyboards are programmable, function keys
| can be added to a custom layer, just as any other keys. The
| entire point is to make it so you don't constantly have to
| be reaching for keys, to bring them closer to your fingers
| (which can stay relatively still).
| distances wrote:
| You got a lot of exotic suggestions, I'll give one closer to
| normal: Perixx Periboard 535. Split (though non-adjustable),
| low profile mechanical switches with three options, three
| tilting levels, wired or wireless, with or without numpad. And
| has function keys. Also quite cheap.
|
| I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad,
| and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement
| for MS Sculpt and didn't want one of the wild models, this
| finally ticked all the boxes.
|
| https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535
|
| DE: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BZZJH9W2
|
| US: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLT4HDPR
| dotancohen wrote:
| That does look pretty good. Thank you!
| tom_ wrote:
| Seconded. They're pretty good and I've found them a decent
| replacement for the MS Ergonomic 4000 keyboards that I used
| to use. Full size keyboard with keys in the normal places,
| reverse tilt, manageable F lock, and a cable to connect it to
| your computer.
|
| I've got one with clicky blue switches, which is fun to type
| on but a bit loud, and one with silent red switches, which is
| pleasant to use but the key activation is perhaps a bit too
| light. I sometimes find myself pressing the keys when I
| thought I was just hovering my fingers.
|
| The folding stands are a weak point. The MS 4000/Sculpt sort
| of design, whereby the riser is a solid piece of plastic that
| the keyboard rests on, is much better.
| distances wrote:
| I like the stands. I need two different levels of tilt,
| full negative for the sitting position and the mid level
| for standing. It's really easy to switch between the levels
| so it fits well my use case.
| pimlottc wrote:
| I agree, they're darn near perfect, but they always end up with
| repeated characters or "key chatter". It's such a shame, I've
| basically resigned myself to buying a new one ever year or two,
| but I hate the waste.
| kayson wrote:
| I love my moonlander so much, I bought a second one for work.
| Both were secondhand, so the sticker shock wasn't quite so bad.
| Though, I did end up spending some of that savings on custom,
| coiled cables. A coworker, after seeing my setup, also ended
| buying two.
|
| I agree with the author. It's a tool, and if your job requires a
| lot of computer use, it is worth it to invest in a tool that can
| not only help prevent RSI, but also make you much more
| productive.
|
| I switched to a Colemak-dh layout at the same time, and it was a
| huge adjustment. I'm not sure it was really worth it yet. It is
| hard to catch up to 30+ years of QWERTY muscle memory, though.
| Key layout aside, the ortholinear arrangement has absolutely been
| worth it. It feels much more comfortable, especially with the
| tenting set up.
|
| ZSA's layout editor and customer support also deserve a shoutout.
| Can't recommend it enough.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| ZSA's support is great too. I've reached out twice for
| something I thought was a bug and both times the response was a
| swift, polite, confident:
|
| > we thought of your case and built you a toggle for it, try
| setting [thing] and let us know if that helps
|
| It helped
| tpmoney wrote:
| I don't have a moonlander but I did get one of their ergodox
| keyboards after noticing an increase in pain myself. I tried
| using it in querty and my experience was unless you type with
| proper hand position and finger movements (and possibly not
| even then) querty on an orthinear was even more painful than on
| a regular keyboard. I tried colemak for a while but something
| about the layout didn't feel comfortable still. I landed on
| using "middlemak" [1] which at least for me has been much more
| comfortable. It preserves a decent bit of qwerty placement to
| help with muscle memory, but I've also found that only using it
| on the ergodox keyboard and keeping qwerty on all of my
| "normal" keyboards has also helped the muscle memory a lot.
|
| [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Middlemak/wiki/index/
| qwerpy wrote:
| I like my moonlander. Feels great and now that I'm used to
| ortholinear, I can't go back. The ZSA layout editor is awesome.
| I just wish it had more keys so that I could have an F row and
| dedicated keys for modifiers. Yes I can use the various
| features to get them and yes I know it'll be allegedly faster
| once I train myself. But I'm a busy middle aged man now. I
| float back and forth between Windows (home), Mac (work), and
| Linux (Steam deck) and having to keep all the keyboard
| shortcuts straight on top of having blank keycaps for modifiers
| makes my head hurt.
|
| I briefly looked for labeled keycaps that let the light shine
| through but couldn't find any.
|
| Where did you get your coiled cables? I bought one from
| Aliexpress. It took a month to arrive and then didn't work.
| kayson wrote:
| I use long press on the number keys for function keys (F11
| and F12 on the inner columns) and I'm pretty happy with that
| setup.
|
| I got my cables on etsy. There are tons of US-based makers
| who have large selections of colors, connectors, etc. I got
| my connectors cerakoted and they're really nice. It's pricey
| though.
| landr0id wrote:
| I like my Moonlander, but if you want to see a real scam of a
| keyboard try buying (please don't) one of "WORK LOUDER"'s
| keyboards like the Nomad E. $350-500, gimmicks you'll never use,
| non-open-source firmware, cheap build quality, no refunds.
| miladyincontrol wrote:
| I too have a moonlander but imo the biggest gain from most mechs
| isnt how they can tent but being ortholinear in nature reducing
| some of the more awkward directional movements of a staggered
| keyboard. Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its
| too many keys, a 40% is more than enough, less can be more in
| many ways.
|
| My datahand is probably my favorite keyboard though for reducing
| movement while avoiding too much repetition. If it ever bites the
| dust beyond repair I'd absolutely move to a diy svalboard build
| or whatever similar alternative is it's contemporary.
| hosteur wrote:
| > Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many
| keys
|
| Can't you just program it such that you do not use the keys you
| find unnecessary? Perhaps even remove the switches?
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Don't have a moonlander but I actually did this with my
| advantage 360 pro. I did not remove the switches but I made
| them no-ops. The whole left-most and right-most columns of
| the keyboard are completely unused for me.
|
| If you travel with the keyboard a lot maybe its an issue
| since its extra weight/space, but if not I don't see it
| really hurting much.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me
| to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a
| workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my
| own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be
| in pain no matter how weird it looked.
|
| I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending
| thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something that
| allowed me to type for more than 5 minutes at a time without
| pain.
|
| The things I think are key for people with persistent issues:
|
| - programmable keys
|
| - tenting
|
| - concavity (rules out most keyboards)
|
| - thumb clusters
|
| - ortholinear
|
| I know some go without the concavity but I just cannot go back.
| Its so much more comfortable on my hands.
|
| Programmable keys are probably the most important though,
| primarily so you can pick which stretches and awkward movements
| to completely remove and no longer have to do.
|
| For example I've entirely removed the need to ever stretch my
| pinkies and ring fingers on both hands. It destroys my hands
| having to do so on a normal keyboard and so many normal shortcuts
| require excessive pinky finger movement.
|
| I honestly think anybody who plans on using a keyboard for the
| rest of their life should invest in a high quality keyboard even
| if it's expensive. I would not be able to continue working today
| without having done so.
|
| Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how
| flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis
| feels.
| dbalatero wrote:
| You nailed it, I have the same criteria. I ended up with a
| Cyboard Imprint but the Advantage 360 seems excellent as well.
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| For those with more time than money, you can build an open-
| source Advantage 360 clone for around $100 USD:
|
| - https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1
|
| I'm not the creator, but I do have a repo with a purchase list
| that shows what stuff to buy from AliExpress:
|
| - https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras
|
| It takes about 10 hours to put together. You'll also need some
| nerd tools: access to a 3D printer, soldering iron, etc.
| patrickk wrote:
| There are some great 3D printing services out there for those
| who don't have access to a 3D printer locally. You can upload
| the CAD file and get an instant quote.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| These look great and I don't doubt it's worth the investment,
| but holy hell $500 is a tough price tag to accept.
| Lunamare wrote:
| The way I thought about it was that I would gladly pay $500
| to have a reduction in RSI symptoms, let alone prevent them
| beforehand. Not to mention the potential loss of enjoyment &
| employment from pain during computer use.
|
| And as such, I'm an extremely satisfied Advantage 360 Pro
| user. The Adv 360 + a mouse side-grade massively reduced
| pains in my hands/wrists to the point where I don't notice
| any issues 99% of the time, even with heavy (7+ hour)
| computer use and quite a lot of FPS gaming.
|
| Though note that there are several keyboards with split
| layouts + tenting (the two most important aspects for relief)
| that cost a fraction of the Adv 360; $200-300 of the price
| tag is for features, build quality, it being pre-built, and
| ease of programmability.
| woleium wrote:
| Yeah, as a medical expense it's quite the bargain
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Totally agree that it is worth the investment and who
| knows, maybe I will even get one one day. But I'm
| definitely getting some sticker shock regardless haha
| Symbiote wrote:
| I got sticker shock when I first bought an Apple Magic
| Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.
|
| It is, even in the USA, $129, compared to the $20 or so
| I'd otherwise expect to pay when buying a computer for a
| new employee.
|
| Here in Denmark the RRP is 1699DKK = $267 = EUR227.
| (Still $215 without the VAT.)
| rovr138 wrote:
| I have a Kinesis advantage pro. I bought it 11 years ago (in
| 2 months). When you look at it over the time it'll last.. it
| gets easier to swallow. It also solved a lot of issues for
| me.
|
| In that time, I've had 3 desks, 5 computer chairs, and 7
| computers.
| sshine wrote:
| I just got a corne split keyboard from China for a fraction
| of the cost. The guy who runs the webshop seemed like a legit
| enthusiast. $40
| sudahtigabulan wrote:
| You can get pretty far with software-only tweaks to your
| existing keyboard instead.
|
| I've settled on keyd[1], after using XKB and interception-
| tools for a while.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| For some users they're fine, but terrible for hypervisors,
| remote desktops or systems you don't own (it's far easier
| to sneak a keyboard into some places than a software
| solution). A hardware solution was far better for my
| usecase, obviously ymmv,though.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Cheaper than medical bills regardless of what country you're
| in.
| vel0city wrote:
| I've definitely spent way more than $500 over the several
| models of keyboards, albeit the ASP was more like $200 or so.
|
| My view on it is, a good keyboard will get several years of
| use out of it, the average yearly price isn't really _that_
| much. Second, it 's something I'm touching several hours most
| days of my life. I'm using a keyboard more than I wear shoes
| personally (I do prefer the barefoot life, so I'm a bit odd
| there). I'm touching it more than my couch or my dining
| chairs or other things in my home. Isn't it worthwhile that
| it's comfortable and exactly what I want from it?
| userbinator wrote:
| I am curious how/if you were formally taught how to type, and
| whether you hit the keys with sharp and abrupt movements. Of
| those whom I've seen develop RSI, a common trend I've noticed
| is they type very "discretely", with a very noticeable pause
| between each keypress, and use a lot more force than necessary.
| They were also taught that that was the "correct" way to type,
| adhere strictly to a sub-optimal fingering pattern, and type
| relatively slowly too. RSI seems to be caused by the sort of
| excessively rigid and intense finger movements that I've seen
| from these formally-taught typists.
| barrell wrote:
| Not op, but had a very similar story. Got crippling RSI to
| welcome me into my 30s. Couldn't work for several months and
| ended up getting a Glove80 because I needed to make a living.
|
| This definitely does not describe me. I typed around 100wpm,
| sometimes quite loud, often times quite a button mash, and
| frequently not lifting my fingers quickly after each press.
| Didn't have any notion of "correct" typing
| makeitdouble wrote:
| The more generic trend could be people who perfectly hit the
| same keys the same way again and again.
|
| I've seen it with people religiously sticking to an optimal
| typing method which limits their hand movement to an extreme.
| They were crazy fast but RSI was a common subject of
| discussion, regardless of posture or hardware quality.
|
| We had the same issue with gaming controllers, some with
| guitar learning etc. There's a limit on how much we're able
| to repeat the same movement again and again, it depended on
| what movement and who did it, but the only ones who didn't
| get any RSI simply avoided extreme repetitions.
|
| And buffs. Sometimes building more and more muscles solve the
| issues entirely, if that's what you're into.
| fireflash38 wrote:
| Agreed. I had wrist pain when I played a lot of WoW -
| rogue, especially outlaw, is not kind to the hands.
|
| I solved it in a couple of ways:
|
| 1. Quit wow
|
| 2. Rock climbing. Get stronger, especially forearm and
| finger strength. I can't emphasize enough how much this
| helps over even carpal tunnel braces or whatever. The
| biggest single thing that stopped wrist pain.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I was not taught to formally type and learned pretty much
| exclusively from playing PC games. Primarily wold of
| Warcraft.
|
| I did not "touch type" in the traditional sense of correct
| form and using the home row, but I didn't need to look at the
| keyboard. I typed around 120wpm like this though at the time.
| I have not and probably never will get back to this speed
| typing on the Kinesis. I'm closer to just 90-100wpm with
| stricter typing technique. But usually try not to type as
| fast as I can anymore anyway. I still to this day type faster
| with my crap form on a laptop keyboard if I swap to it for a
| bit even though I rarely do anymore.
|
| My typing form was honestly atrocious. If I were to describe
| it I covered over wasd with my left hand as if I was gaming,
| and pinky was only ever really used for modifier keys and
| shifting. I only used left shift, never right. My right hand
| I used index finger for spacebar and moved my entire hand to
| the spacebar between every word. I didn't even realize I did
| this until I sat and analyzed my typing form maybe a year ago
| to compare to correct touch typing.
|
| It actually took me quite a while to learn to type on a split
| keyboard since I basically had to learn to type correctly
| from scratch.
| DanHulton wrote:
| As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of
| things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I
| had a variety of successes and failures.
|
| But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy
| and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak,
| causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my
| shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of
| this is connected in weird ways, the pain I was feeling in my
| wrists originated way back in over-stressing those shoulder
| muscles.
|
| After a few weeks of an exercise program designed to target
| those muscles, all my RSI pains aren't just reduced, which was
| the sum total of the results I got from different mechanical
| keyboards, they were GONE. Plus, I had the added benefit of
| naturally sitting and walking "better" and feeling better about
| it.
|
| So if you've tried different mechanical keyboards with only
| limited degrees of success (or have a fave keyboard you don't
| want to have to switch from), consider an exercise program
| designed to improve your posture! It is literally the single
| biggest thing I've done in the past year to make me feel
| significantly better, and not just in the case of the RSI!
| nothrabannosir wrote:
| I have a similar story. Bought a Kinesis advantage II at the
| time and it provided at best some solace. Started lifting
| weights and all pain was completely gone within two weeks.
|
| Not saying it will work for others but it's at least worth
| trying.
|
| PS I ended up sticking with the kinesis, now on a 360 pro.
| Hands down the best keyboard I've ever seen or used. I
| recommend both deadlifts and kinesis :)
| jacobolus wrote:
| A person in good health with good form can type with
| reasonable (not ideal) comfort on a standard keyboard on any
| height table (within reason), but:
|
| (0) Try to feel in your body what kind of static load is on
| your muscles and joints. Ideally you want your body parts to
| be in neutral relaxed positions. It's not always possible to
| completely avoid static load, so try to take routine breaks,
| change positions, etc.
|
| (1) At all costs avoid having nontrivial wrist extension or
| flexion (wrists bent upward or downward) while doing
| repetitive finger motions. Your hands need to be coming
| straight out of your forearms. The tendons that flex and
| extend the fingers need to pass through the wrists, and a
| bent wrist leaves them moving in a weak and uncomfortable
| part of their range of motion. My understanding is that most
| keyboard-related RSI comes from wrist extension or flexion.
|
| (2) You should try to get your arms to be supported as much
| as possible passively from the shoulders. When sitting or
| standing, the upper arms should be hanging loosely at your
| sides with back reasonably straight and head up. The keyboard
| needs to be close enough to the torso for this to be
| possible. If your elbows are not close to your body, but are
| forward or out to the side, try to change your position.
| Being in a position where the weight of the arms is supported
| by the arm muscles causes fatigue and encourages compromising
| other joint positions in uncomfortable or damaging ways to
| relieve the strain. While actively typing the hands do not
| need to be supported by any kind of surface: let the palms
| "float" above the keyboard. Use the palm rest for resting,
| not typing.
|
| (3) For a single-piece flat keyboard, I find it is most
| comfortable for the plane of the keyboard to be parallel to
| the forearms. The appropriate front/back tilt of the keyboard
| is therefore dependent on the relative height of the keyboard
| and the torso: if the table is high relative to the chair,
| the keyboard needs to be tilted up at the far side; if the
| keyboard is on your lap, on a low under-desk keyboard tray,
| or on a belly-height standing desk, then the keyboard needs
| to be flat or even tilted down at the far side. The major
| reason that old typewriters had an aggressive tilt to them
| was because desks are historically the right height for
| handwriting (i.e. tall).
|
| (4) I find it helps a lot on a one-piece keyboard to keep the
| wrists with little to no ulnar deviation (turn toward the
| outside). It also helps to try to pronate them less (i.e.
| leave them turned so that the pinkies are a bit below the
| pointer fingers, instead of rotating them all the way flat).
| Split ergonomic keyboards eliminate the need to make some of
| these compromises by allowing the hands to be separated and
| allowing the sides to be "tented" (so the wrists can be less
| pronated) and positioned/oriented to eliminate ulnar
| deviation.
|
| (5) Try not to have too sharp an impact on each keystroke.
| Ideally use only the necessary force for each key press to
| register, and try to avoid slamming your fingers down hard
| through the bottom of the keystroke. A keyboard with better
| switches can help a lot here, with reliable actuation halfway
| through the keystroke and tactile/auditory feedback at the
| actuation point. Key switches that don't reliably actuate
| unless smashed are the worst.
| distances wrote:
| I have somewhat similar experience. I had wrist pain for
| years, using a wrist support and topical pain gel. MRI and
| other tests were inconclusive, it wasn't any of the typical
| problems.
|
| A physiotherapist said the problem is not the wrists but that
| the pain comes from higher up in the arms. I started going to
| the gym, and like for you, the issues are just gone now. I
| haven't worn the wrist support since.
| VladVladikoff wrote:
| Lifting weights cured a lot of my wrist pain. Then I started
| training jiujitsu, now I have full body pain all the time.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I wonder if anyone who's switched to an ergonomic setup has
| found that it stops working as well over time. Because I have
| long suspected that the real problems (in many cases) come
| down to weak muscles. But these ergonomic setups are likely
| to weaken them even more over a long enough period of time
| given that they try to avoid all of the strain.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Programmers are far more likely to have hyper-mobility than
| the general population, it makes it far more difficult /
| impossible to maintain good posture. If they don't strength
| train they'll end up rather weak regardless. So my general
| recommendation is to reduce injuries by being as ergonomic
| as possible while also hitting the gym. I use a reclining
| chair because I can't avoid slouching no matter how
| ergonomic the chair is and it works for me. I also take
| Performance Enhancing Drugs (PEDs), hgh peptides and test
| cypionate. If you've seen what happens to people like
| myself with severe hEDS you'd understand why. Most
| programmers are not as severe but tend to have some form of
| 'benign' generalized hyper mobility.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Citation needed
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Unfortunately I was probably what most people would think is
| a model person in terms of activity. I used a standing desk
| or sitting with no backrest to maintain upright posture - I
| exercised all the time, did yoga with my wife, competed in
| powerlifting, did plenty of walking/cardio, rucking etc. I
| played guitar regularly and had since I was like 12 and had
| bouldering as a hobby so finger strength didn't seem to be an
| issue.
|
| I did physical therapy for months and the issue basically
| came down to my nerves being the issue. I was diagnosed with
| Cubital Tunnel Syndrome in both elbows and also a torn TFCC
| tear in one hand causing pressure on the ulnar nerve in my
| wrists when the wrist was flexed even a little or in what was
| called ulnar deviation (wrist extended outwards/away from
| your body). I was told the most likely cause was as simple as
| the way I slept - with my elbows bent and potentially
| exacerbated due to excessive heavy gripping combined with my
| bone structure in my elbow simply not being very kind on me.
|
| I've since recovered from the elbow surgeries and they are
| evaluating wrist surgery as well, I still sometimes have
| issues with my fingers going numb in the wrong position - but
| trust me, I went to all kinds of doctors trying to figure
| this out since practically every hobby I had required using
| my hands/fingers. Unfortunately it just seems like I was
| unlucky. But having keyboards that allow my hands to be in
| more natural positions at the very least has allowed me to
| continue working.
| guskel wrote:
| Hey I have cubital tunnel and also have an ulnar deviation
| in my left arm. Have you tried ergos with low profile
| keyboards? ZSA also makes a model called the Voyager, which
| is the best keyboard that I've ever had. Might be worth
| checking out. Like you with the Kinesis, the Voyager has
| been able to keep me in the game.
| petesergeant wrote:
| Anyone else suffering with this, I would highly recommend an
| app that forces you to stop typing for a few seconds every
| other couple of minutes, like AntiRSI. Hugely annoying but
| helped me where many keyboards did not
| microtonal wrote:
| _Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don 't like
| how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the
| kinesis feels._
|
| Glove80 has a better key well and thumb cluster for most people
| though. I have made a detailed comparison here:
|
| https://danieldk.eu/MoErgo-Glove80-Review
|
| Also agree with the sibling commenters. In order, get:
|
| - Help from an expert/exercise/do very regular breaks.
|
| - A properly adjustable chair.
|
| - A height-adjustable desk (get an electronic one, it's the
| only one you will ever tune properly, other desks are too much
| effort).
|
| - Only then an ergo keyboard.
|
| An ergo keyboard is worthless if you do not get the basics
| right (diagnose the issues, letting the blood flow, having a
| good posture). I am in some ergo keyboard Discords and it
| happens far too often that people by an ergo keyboard, but do
| not even have a setup where they can have a good posture.
| psoundy wrote:
| I used kinesis advantage for 15 years, switched to a glove80
| for the past 2, but recently went back to kinesis with an
| advantage2. The glove80 is very nice, but my hands are big
| enough that the kinesis thumb cluster works better for me and
| the cherry mx brown switches are much more satisfying than
| the low profile chocs.
|
| So ymmv, but for those with larger hands, it may make sense
| to try a kinesis.
| qyckudnefDi5 wrote:
| Have you tried any of the splitkb keyboards? If so, how do
| they compare to the kinesis adv 2?
| harvey9 wrote:
| Glove80 might not survive a drop on the floor but I've used
| mine full time for over a year and it still feels like new.
| jval43 wrote:
| That is exactly my experience, although a bit earlier.
|
| I landed on a Kinesis Advantage 2, at the time as the 360
| wasn't even announced yet.
|
| Spent entirely too much money on other ones. There's a reason
| the Kinesis Advantage line has been around for decades. It
| really is a just a great ergonomic shape without many
| compromises. And mine has held up 7 years now with no issues.
|
| Anyone looking for pain relief should really try the Advantage
| 2 or 360. If the 360 Pro is too expensive don't shy away from
| considering a used Kinesis Advantage 2. Don't get an Advantage
| 1 as they have compatibility issues with newer machines.
| Symbiote wrote:
| If cost is a concern, and you are an employee, please _ask if
| work will pay_. Also ask if they have a similar keyboard
| lying unused in a cupboard.
|
| I'll buy a EUR450 keyboard for any employee that asks for
| one. It's easily justified compared to the loss of
| productivity from RSI or similar.
| lawn wrote:
| I agree with your list except for ortholinear. I firmly believe
| that row stagger (that you find on regular keyboards) are bad
| but you should have column stagger (to match the different
| lengths of your fingers).
| atoav wrote:
| Having been extensively on computers for the past 25 years and
| I have never experienced the whole keyboard-/mouse-pain thing
| even in the slightest on myself. I know many collegues who did
| tho.
|
| I wonder whether this has to do with me being a bass and guitar
| player. Playing an instrument where you essentially press down
| thick steel wires with your finger tips with full force, while
| your fingers are in odd angled ("unhealthy") positions for
| hours certainly does something to your motoric system.
|
| I know anecdotal evidence with n=1 is useless, but the idea
| that motion is important to reduce body pains isn't exactly new
| or unresearched. A whole family of ergonomic chairs have
| evolved about that very idea. I know multiple people whose only
| solution to excruciating back pain was simply to exercise and
| build muscles in the back, and they tried every ergonomic chair
| in the book. The only thing that _really_ helped was excercise.
|
| Since I don't have RSI take all that with a grain of salt, but
| maybe trying with those guitar-finger-strength-trainers for a
| month isn't that big of an investment?
| akdor1154 wrote:
| Similar experience (no rsi, 35, shit tier typing technique,
| bassist + pianist), same theory. Go get them fingers jacked!
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Sadly I actually stopped playing guitar because of my issues
| after having played for almost 20 years.
|
| I'd played guitar since I was 12 years old and probably
| averaged at least an hour a day basically the entire time
| even into adulthood. Played obviously a hell of a lot more
| when I was a teenager though.i also was competing in
| powerlifting and used my grip and fingers for all sorts of
| stuff.
|
| I had surgery on both elbows and am told I may need to on my
| hands/wrists since the issue is a combination of nerve issues
| and wrist issues.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I fairly recently got a Glove 80, still not entirely used to
| the thing but I can certainly tell my wrists are a lot happier.
| Was also looking at the Advantage 360, but with shipping it's
| nearly twice as expensive where I live so it was hard to
| motivate.
|
| Before that I was using a Keychron Q11, which is a split
| keyboard with a regular staggered layout. That helped my
| shoulders feel better, I have a pretty broad frame and regular
| keyboards put me in a kinda t-rex position, but my left wrist
| in particular was killing me since I couldn't type a fair few
| keys on the left side, c, x, z, and q, without constantly
| adjusting my hand position.
|
| Must say that the Glove 80 is growing on me as one heck of a
| comfortable experience. No idea how durable it is, it's
| certainly a light keyboard, though at the same time I'm not
| sure how well that actually conveys build quality. Like would
| the solder joints really have been more resistant to drops and
| impacts if it had a steel plate in the bottom like the Kinesis
| does?
| kalaksi wrote:
| I have had ctrl and caps lock swapped for a long time. The
| default layout sucks for today's needs.
| oktoberpaard wrote:
| I got RSI using a touchpad, which then transferred to using a
| normal mouse. I couldn't do anything with a mouse for longer
| than a few minutes. I completely fixed it with a DXT Mouse 2
| (and later 3).
|
| My normal (mechanical) keyboard doesn't give me any issues, as
| long as it's narrow enough (75% layout or less) that I can keep
| my mouse close enough to the center of my body that I don't
| have to rotate my shoulder outwards too much.
|
| My natural resting position on my keyboard is with both arms
| coming in diagonally without bending at the wrists. I do a lot
| of work on the terminal, including programming, so I'm using it
| quite intensively and I never feel any strain.
|
| I tried to get used to a split orthogonal keyboard, but I
| couldn't use it for extended periods without getting RSI like
| symptoms. Would I have persisted, I might have gotten used to
| it. Or maybe it just wasn't the right one for me.
|
| Anyway, this is not to counter any of the things you said,
| because I basically followed the same path with my mouse, but
| it shows how different postures and usage patterns can lead to
| different outcomes. I'm still interested in ergonomic
| keyboards, though, and I might try one again in the future.
| andrewjf wrote:
| I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just
| couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols
| like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult
| to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my
| own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish
| I had a better experience.
|
| Any recommendations?
| animal_spirits wrote:
| How long did you spend trying to adjust? it takes some time. I
| consistently made typos for about 2 months and then it quickly
| became very natural to type. My only advice here is to slog
| through the typos for a couple months. Our brains are flexible
| enough to adapt.
| kyeb wrote:
| - Learn their default layout first, then iterate on your
| personal preferences. I similarly tried a bunch at first, but
| realized switching layouts constantly was making it impossible
| to build up the new muscle memory.
|
| - Spend time practicing away from important coding tasks (e.g.
| gaming, writing, a side project, a one-off script, etc.). Being
| able to learn in a forgiving environment, outside of deadlines,
| gives you the space to allow mistakes and time to correct them
| its-kostya wrote:
| Muscle memory is exactly what it sounds like, you need more
| repetition. If you are becoming frustrated, you can try to
| reduce your cognitive load. ZSA has an app for all platforms
| called "Keymapp". It's primarily used for flashing firmware but
| shows the key assignments in real time. I use only 1 monitor
| but I've repurposed my laptop screen to always display keymapp
| so I can see which key/layer has the symbol I am looking for
| when I don't have the mental capacity to remember.
|
| The default layers are pretty good, but I found programming the
| keys/layers to what made sense to me to be more beneficial. I
| use the heat map to see which keys get the most milage and
| program layers around that. Then I only program a few new keys
| at a time and get a feel for things. My words-per-minute went
| down initially but now it is back.
|
| I have been tweaking my layout for about a month and am close
| to being happy with it. I've set myself a milestone that when I
| don't make any tweaks for 6 months I will buy custom keycaps
| that have my exact symbols/layers on each key.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I've mapped paired symbols to the same finger on opposite
| hands, so ()[]{}<>/\'" are mirrored, and then also I've got
| numbers and symbols corresponding as well so the 123... pad on
| my right is a !@#... pad on my left. It gets me pretty far, but
| not everything has a mate so I occasionally have a brain fart
| moment and suddenly I'm hunting for | even though I have years
| worth of muscle memory on this layout.
|
| So I guess I'd say: design to lean on familiar structures as
| much as you can and then just commit to using it a lot and
| don't give yourself too hard of a time when it gets wierd.
| Whatever you come up with will surely beat the pain associated
| with having your right on of pinky in charge of 50% of the
| symbols plus enter.
| tpmoney wrote:
| I didn't like the default layouts for symbols either and wound
| up building this layout[1] (there have been a few minor tweaks
| since but nothing substantial). The parens as double taps on
| the shift keys is the big one for me for writing code. The
| other brackets on the inside are convenient enough to use but
| not occupying "prime" space, and I have "auto-shift" enabled so
| a top on "[" give that character, but holding it down (for >
| 160ms) gives "{" (and same for all the other keys and their
| respective shifted versions. And in case it isn't clear what's
| going on in the thumb clusters, the two enter keys and the
| space key do their respective actions on tap, and do Left CTRL,
| ALT or Right CTRL respectively when held down. Might be a place
| to start if you wanted to try again.
|
| Also on the "muscle memory" thing, I decided early on to not
| try to modify any other keyboards in my life. Just the ergodox
| get the middlemak and super custom layout. I found that
| preserves muscle memory for laptop built in keyboards and using
| other people's and allows my brain to form a completely
| separate set of muscle memory that kicks in on the ergodox and
| neither seem to conflict with each other. Works for my brain,
| might work for you too.
|
| [1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-
| st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
| mkozlows wrote:
| Try something like a Sinc: https://keeb.io/products/sinc-
| rev-4-split-staggered-75-keybo...
|
| It's still mechanical, it's still split, it's still QMK
| programmable, it's got hotswap sockets so you can try different
| switches... but it's also an extremely normal staggered layout
| with function keys and everything.
|
| I think it's worth trying the ortho 'n' layers approach,
| because it has real wins to it; but if you've tried it and
| don't like it, this is one step closer to normalcy, while still
| keeping many of the wins.
| lawn wrote:
| Yes, you simply need more practice.
|
| Keyboards, layouts etc won't matter as you'll have the same
| difficulties you're feeling now, no matter what you choose.
|
| Practice and patience, that is the cure.
| rajman187 wrote:
| My main keyboard has been a 34-key split Ferris. I usually have
| either a trackpad between the halves if I'm using a Mac or an
| ergonomic Logitech if on my Linux desktop. Not having to move my
| hands at all while being able to reach any keys/characters I need
| has been a welcomed change, worth remapping my brain.
|
| https://arjtala.github.io/2022/09/17/ferris-compact.html
| Eji1700 wrote:
| Agreed. It quickly becomes "awkward" to go back to using a
| numpad once you get used to ALWAYS being one key hold/press
| away from it. I can type numbers as easily as I can type
| capitals, ditto with every symbol, and my function keys.
|
| Hell I've even worked on a couple of revision on "gaming"
| layers. Namely for FPS or older roguelikes.
|
| I hate how hard it is to find a split space(feels mandatory now
| that i'm used to it) 40% with wireless and QMK/Zia/etc. The
| EPOMAKER-TH40 SHOULD be perfect, but turns out they put out a
| breaking patch or something and it's not ACTUALLY programmable
| anymore. I need something like this for 2 setups at homes.
|
| I went around on a couple of things and landed on the split 4x5
| Chiri CE for my everyday workhorse since it's easy to carry.
|
| https://keeb.io/products/chiri-ce-keyboard-kit?variant=41088...
|
| Of note, while that board seems to be out of stock and isn't
| for everyone i cannot recommend keeb.io enough. They've done a
| fantastic job of keeping my board running after I had some ESD
| ruin it once or twice, and have never charged me as it was
| still under warranty.
|
| With how hit or miss a lot of this niche keyboard stuff is,
| it's really really nice to find people who stand by their
| product and can turn things around. I get its got to be a
| miserable market so I don't demand it, and I'm extremely happy
| when I do see it.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| Those thumbs are doing a lot of work. Can't imagine that being
| ergonomic.
| Arrowmaster wrote:
| Thumbs are one of your stronger fingers. In contrast the pinky
| is by far the weakest but we have dedicated it to almost every
| modifier and outlying key. I currently use an Elora from
| SplitKB so I can't speak to the Moonlanders thumb cluster, but
| if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much
| usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing.
| MichaelDickens wrote:
| For me the biggest benefit of thumb keys isn't finger
| strength, it's the fact that the thumb is separated from the
| rest of the hand. It's really easy to hit a thumb key while
| hitting any other key on the "main" part of the keyboard.
| Whereas on a traditional keyboard, typing something like
| shift-T or ctrl-R requires stretching out your hand.
| microtonal wrote:
| _It 's really easy to hit a thumb key while hitting any
| other key on the "main" part of the keyboard._
|
| Mirrored home row mods are even much nicer (IMO).
| microtonal wrote:
| Thumbs can get overuse injuries:
| https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html
|
| I have used ergo keyboards with thumb clusters for several
| years now. After a while, even though switching to a split
| ergo keyboard alleviated wrist pains, I developed thumb
| discomfort.
|
| In the end I solved it by only frequently using the resting
| key of each thumb (space and backspace). And using the other
| thumb keys for infrequent things. I use homerow mods to have
| all modifiers in the alpha block.
|
| _if you find one you like it 's a massive difference in how
| much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing_
|
| Until they start to hurt. It can take a few years (just like
| wrist pains). Be careful!
| Arrowmaster wrote:
| The Elora I use follows the circular thumb cluster format
| so I have three keys per thumb that can be used with little
| movement the rest are for rarely used layer switches and
| such. One of those three is for often used layers.
|
| I have homerow mods configured but still need to work on
| using them more. Unfortunately a lot of what's best for
| typing conflicts with what's best for gaming. Almost every
| example split layout puts space on the right half and I
| move it to the left. Still need shift and control on pinky
| holds. And the Elora has an exaggerated pinky stagger but
| swapped to WQSD makes an almost perfect diamond, but at the
| expense of the old Q now being A is below instead of above
| and Z is really far away.
| lawn wrote:
| Thumbs are also less agile than all the other fingers, so
| having it move around a lot is not great.
|
| Also, RSI on your thumb (especially with smartphone usage) is
| very common.
|
| So yes, you should probably have the most frequent keys on
| your thumbs but only very few (I'd say 1-2).
| microtonal wrote:
| Not sure why people are downvoting this. This is a serious
| concern and quite a lot some people using thumb clusters
| develop thumb discomfort or pain:
| https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html
|
| In my experience (having also had thumb discomfort on ergo
| boards) thumb clusters can be great, but you have to make sure
| to avoid too much thumb movement.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| When I first got a keyboard with a thumb cluster that had 6
| keys I was originally a bit overzealous and had a bunch of
| relatively frequently used keys assigned to them. I actually
| ended up developing a little bit of what I think was some
| tendonitis in my thumbs when I first started using it quite a
| bit.
|
| Ever since then, I primarily only use two of the keys of each
| thumb clusters with frequency, and they both require very
| little movement to reach (the two large keys on a kinesis
| 360). The others that require a little bit more extending of
| the thumb are more infrequently used keys that don't ring all
| the time.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| I love my Glove80 with Pro Red chocs. Kinesis Advantage for 15
| years before that one.
|
| Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However
| its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.
| 1121redblackgo wrote:
| Glove80++
| microtonal wrote:
| 100% agree. I have almost never travelled with my Advantage2 or
| 360 when I still had them. But the Glove80 is so light that
| it's easy to carry with me.
|
| The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only
| keyboard I've truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-
| designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set
| up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle.
|
| MoErgo is also expanding the Choc keyboard space with really
| nice silent switches (Cherry/Plum Blossom) and keycaps.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| I dislike the tenting and often lose them so I just put
| something under the keyboard halves to tilt them. Later I
| want to get their mounting kit and just use these tiny pocket
| tripods I have (can't find the name but they have no rod), or
| find a good way to put magsafe rings on them to use with
| other sturdy mini tripods I have.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I mentioned in my comment not liking how flimsy is felt. It
| is very light and that can be a plus but when I tried
| traveling with it with tenting setup, often the rods became
| loose, it formed an awkward shape so didn't fit in the
| carrying case they provided in the first place, would not sit
| well in my backpack, and often times I'm not sure why but
| keys would pop out.
|
| Resetting the tenting up everytime I travel/go somewhere with
| it is not really convenient at all, so its not really a
| decent option.
|
| I don't often travel with the 360, but when I do, I just
| lower it to the lowest level and its never had an issue
| except for the obvious bulkiness.
|
| Another issue is because its so light, it would often shift
| around on my desk while typing, and I've seen others complain
| about this as well. Maybe its just an issue of how hard you
| type, or how much friction your desk provides.
|
| If I could get a mix between a 360 with the shape of the
| glove 80's keywell and key setup, but with the sturdiness of
| the 360 I'd buy it no questions asked.
| precompute wrote:
| I've been using a 42-key corne for 5 years and I can't imagine
| using a regular keyboard. The way I sit is now different: my arms
| are spread apart instead of crowding in front of me. This alone
| helps me pay more attention to the work I'm doing because I'm not
| hunching over. It took a few months for the layout to sink in,
| but the ability to customize the layout was insanely helpful and
| now the way I interface with a computer is exactly how I think it
| ought to be. The entire thing was $90 with a 3d printed case
| that's still holding strong. I tented it with some jenga blocks
| and it's flawless. I almost never look at the thing.
|
| The Moonlander is way too large IMO. A 42 key layout is about
| perfect and requires ~zero wrist movement.
|
| The corne has three thumb buttons on each side, but it's
| effectively five thumb buttons on each side because two can be
| pressed at the same time. So your layout can be [Mod1] [Layer]
| [Mod2] and you can easily use [Mod1]/[Mod2] with anything on
| [Layer]. And when you press [Mod1], a thumb key on the other hand
| becomes [Mod2]. So you basically get to use every possible combo.
| I have five mod keys this way: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Super and Hyper.
| And multiple layer keys.
| egypturnash wrote:
| _There are still key combos that I could tap out with lightning
| speed on my old keyboard that I still struggle to type as fast:
| C-M-- (negative argument) followed by another key, such as C-M-k,
| is one such example._
|
| _I wish I had more keys, yet ironically I have empty keys I do
| not use at all on the keyboard._
|
| Stick those sequences on those empty keys as macros. Or assign
| one of those empty keys to control-meta.
| knlb wrote:
| Another vote for the Glove 80: I used the Kinesis Advantage 2 for
| 10 years (after a few initial signs of finger pain developing),
| then tried the new 360; and recently got the glove 80 so I could
| easily travel with it and fell in love with the keyboard.
|
| It definitely doesn't feel as solid as the Kinesis or ergodox
| (which I used intermittently as well) but is the most comfortable
| keyboard I've used, the LEDs are actually useful (for showing
| battery life and bluetooth connections), and there are enough
| keys (including function keys); I don't like having to reason
| about layers at all, I want to be able to smoothly transition to
| my laptop's keyboard in a pinch).
| a1o wrote:
| There's too much filler in this writing. And can't find a photo
| of the specific mentioned keyboard?
| Svoka wrote:
| I love my moonlander. I bought it on release and it is best
| computer accessory I know of. I extensively customized the
| software. My favourite is controlling cursor with keyboard, I
| have one hand mode, etc.
|
| One note -- when I purchased the Moonlander their "The Platform"
| wasn't available. I bought it couple month ago and it improved
| experience even more.
| lotophage wrote:
| I struggled with the Moonlander although it is a wonderful
| keyboard.
|
| I mapped it to a Colemak layout varient when I first got it. I
| was constantly discovering key combos that didn't quite work for
| whatever reason and made tweaks to the layout or the shortcuts in
| various editors. Forever tying my brain in knots learning and
| relearning mappings and combos. Then I'd frequently jump on other
| peoples computers/laptops to help out with small things and have
| to switch back to the old mode of thinking.
|
| It ended up being a productivity sink rather than a boon. I don't
| know whether I would have crossed some inflection point if I had
| persevered, but there was always this fixed cost of tweaking
| shortcuts when using new software that was more burdensome than
| with a plain qwerty keyboard.
|
| Maybe I was too ambitious and should have avoided the Colemak-
| esque layout, but I haven't managed to summon the stamina to give
| it a fair go again. I still use one half of it for gaming though.
| It's really sweet for that.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| I'd say it's definitely the colemak change. They keyboard by
| itself takes some getting used to, a new layout on top would be
| overwhelming.
|
| I kept mine pretty close to a standard qwerty - the only
| customizations are where I put the "\|", backspace, dash and a
| few other keys, along with what to do with all the thumb keys.
| Even with these relatively minor changes, it still took me
| about a week to recover my WPM, and I had to use their touch
| typing software to practice for an hour or two. Making only a
| few changes also makes it seamless to switch to laptop
| keyboards, etc.
| gundmc wrote:
| This matches my experience exactly. I use a standard QWERTY
| setup on the moonlander, with only changes being the thumb
| clusters and changing caps lock to backspace. After a few
| days of practicing, it feels natural and seamless to switch
| back and forth.
| tpmoney wrote:
| I found I couldn't get colemak to work for me. Like you said,
| too many key combos that just felt awkward. I wound up using a
| layout[1] called "middlemak" that feels much more comfortable
| to me, and preserves a lot of qwerty hand if not actual key
| positions, which helped in the initial switch. Took me a few
| months to get up to a relatively normal typing speed and a year
| in (of maybe 2-4 days of use a week depending on whether I'm
| working from the road or not) and I still have to look at my
| keys about 50% of the time, but it's improving and since I only
| customized this one keyboard, it doesn't seem to have broken my
| muscle memory for a standard qwerty keyboard.
|
| [1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-
| st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
| kgc wrote:
| Have a Glove80 on the way.
| kixiQu wrote:
| I love my Ergodox EZ except that I haven't flashed it for years
| and I'm not totally sure what all the keys did on all the layers.
| Still worth it, somehow!!
| roxolotl wrote:
| Had been looking at these for some time. A few days of pain where
| I couldn't type much and the threat tariffs turning on at the end
| of the month, this was early August, caused me to pull the
| trigger on a Voyager, ZSA's low profile keyboard.
|
| Couldn't be happier. I've used QMK, even writing some C for a
| board, and limited key keyboards before and their software really
| does make it a lot simpler to configure. It's also really nice to
| have leds indexable per key so you can color code things when
| you're learning.
|
| They cost a lot more now for those in the US[0] but I'd still
| recommend them. My pain hasn't come back and honestly even at
| +20% that's worth it.
|
| 0:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/zsaVoyager/comments/1n9en4b/us_tari...
| YVoyiatzis wrote:
| Switched early to a left-handed 65% keyboard setup--Keychron K7
| Max QM7 on the left, Trackpad Pro and MX Master 3S on the right.
| Feels quick, natural, and fixes what Apple's keyboards never did.
| moron4hire wrote:
| I've found just switching between differently shaped keyboards
| regularly was enough to cure my RSI. I don't have anything fancy:
| a Unicomp Model M at work and a Microsoft Natural at home.
| dataangel wrote:
| If you have serious RSI I strongly suggest Svalboard.
|
| https://svalboard.com/
| floren wrote:
| Oddly, switching to a custom Lisp Machine-inspired keyboard has
| been better for hand/wrist pain than my Ergodox or the Kinesis
| Advantage I used before. It's a staggered key, non-split, flat
| QWERTY keyboard. I think maybe they're just good keyswitches?
| Here's the keyboard: https://jfloren.net/b/2024/10/23/0
| daft_pink wrote:
| The thing I don't like about keyboards this is that I still have
| to use a mouse and these keyboards don't really address that. If
| I mounted on the arms of my desk, it's even harder to get to the
| mouse. Maybe a few people can get away with just them all day,
| but I can't.
| epiccoleman wrote:
| It's a pretty big departure from traditional keyboards, but
| there are a bunch of dactyl variants which have a trackball in
| the thumb cluster. I'm not sure how practical this really is,
| having never used one, but it's conceptually nifty.
| danpalmer wrote:
| I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and I have the trackball
| module for it. Life changing. I don't use a mouse anymore and
| instead have a trackball right under my thumb.
| daft_pink wrote:
| Wow. UHK has Trackball, Trackpoint or Trackpad options and
| you can click with the left thumb while moving with the
| right. That's incredible! Thanks!
|
| Maybe someday I can afford this, but I miss the IBM Thinkpad
| Trackpoint.
| Twey wrote:
| > proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than
| a regular keyboard, for _reasons_
|
| That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the
| Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry
| typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many
| keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis
| line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by
| 'ergonomic' is 'less stretching', and by geometry more keys =
| more stretching, which is why there's significant overlap between
| the ergonomic keyboard crowd and the few-keys crowd. When I first
| got an Ergodox I too thought I would struggle with few keys, but
| over time I found I prefer to have the keys in a comfortable
| position with a layer modifier than to have them off in Narnia
| where I have to shift my whole wrist to reach them.
|
| (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_
| mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for
| reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different
| from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd
| have.)
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| There are plenty of folks in the community who land somewhere
| in the middle, too. 60%/65% are all pretty popular and don't go
| off the deep end in cutting down keys. I'm personally partial
| to the HHKB layout, which is like 60% with inspiration from
| boards associated with the original Mac and with old UNIX
| boxes.
| scuff3d wrote:
| I got a 75% Keychron a few years ago. Really like it, but
| I've been considering finding a more portable 65%. The
| Keychron is great but it's pretty heavy so it's annoying to
| carry around. Any suggestions?
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Can't recommend anything personally since my boards are
| mostly group but one-offs (other than the HHKBs), but I
| think Keychron has low profile mechanical 65% boards if
| that's of interest.
| mewse-hn wrote:
| I'm a mech keyboard enthusiast and an ansi 104 full size ride-
| or-die
|
| > (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_
| mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards,
| for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite
| different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard
| subcrowd have.)
|
| The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that
| removing the numpad leaves more room for the vigorous,
| professional mousing they have to do (I'm skeptical)
| jacobolus wrote:
| You're skeptical that some people need to use the mouse a
| lot? Or you're skeptical that bringing the mouse closer to
| the mouse hand's typing position / closer to the body
| improves comfort?
|
| I found that when, e.g., using Photoshop, a keyboard without
| a number pad was a nontrivial improvement.
| rollcat wrote:
| Many popular games are physically and mentally demanding. You
| do need "vigorous, professional mousing" for any kind of
| shooter or RTS, on top of actual thinking and reacting.
|
| Playing in teams requires you to type to coordinate with
| teammates. The language floats from cryptic to hectic: all
| sorts of acronyms, jargon, combining text with "body
| language", etc. Regardless, typing with both hands is still
| faster.
|
| You can also buy a detachable numpad.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I just like how everything aligns on my desk better (in terms
| of comfort) with a TKL board. And I was never a numpad user
| anyway. Maybe if I was typing numbers into spreadsheets all
| day I would have a different opinion on the necessity of the
| numpad
| Twey wrote:
| That makes sense! I'm a split keyboard user and for mouse-
| and-keyboard style games I used to move the right half of my
| keyboard out of the way of the mouse.
| artimaeis wrote:
| I like smaller keyboards (80% or less) in both gaming and
| professional work because it lets me keep my hands and
| shoulders in a more natural position when I'm using the mouse.
|
| A person with broader shoulders would probably have a different
| experience, but a full keyboard makes me feel like my mouse is
| either too close to the keyboard or too far to rest my
| shoulder.
| kstrauser wrote:
| My parents sent me to years of piano lessons before I ever
| touched a computer keyboard, and my typing reflects it. I don't
| move my wrist. I move my entire hand. This drove my high school
| typing teacher nuts, but I was the fastest in class by a wide
| margin so he didn't push back too hard.
|
| I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it.
| And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I
| can't prove that there's a connection, but I strongly suspect
| it.
| rollcat wrote:
| > This drove my high school typing teacher nuts [...]
|
| I think that's typical for over-achievers.
| seec wrote:
| I think it's how it should be done. You just executed the
| task intuitively, without any preconceived instruction as to
| the "best" way to do things.
|
| Most of the time, those selling the best way to do stuff have
| a rigid way of thinking/operating and seem to have rules for
| everything in life and they think it applies to everyone the
| same, even though we are clearly all different.
|
| Very often it's actually counterproductive and doesn't get
| you much better performance, touch typing is one of those
| things. It's a rigid theory made to form human robots that
| would spend all day typing stuff from other peoples
| (basically secretaries, re-copying stuff or typing dictated
| material). It focuses on typing speed at the expense of
| everything else. And is completely pointless because the
| speed difference between a touch typist and a self taught
| typist is completely negligible for 99% of tasks.
| Twey wrote:
| Pianists are very (like 60%) susceptible to RSI, especially
| if they have small hands [1] (= lots of stretching motions).
| I think it's a tradeoff -- moving your forearm around spares
| your wrists, but puts more strain on your elbows. I wouldn't
| be surprised if it's better overall, though, just because it
| involves a wider variety of movements.
|
| [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12611474/
|
| Anecdotally, I have large hands (or at least long fingers)
| and early piano lessons, and as a self-taught chaos typist on
| QWERTY I struggled with RSI at a relatively young age until I
| switched to more traditional touch-typing on Dvorak.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I have small hands. I found myself sitting next to a
| chaplain once, and he started conversation with "your hands
| are small. You'd never be able to play piano." I was
| playing Beethoven in recitals at 8, TYVM! I ended that chat
| pretty quickly.
| tcmart14 wrote:
| It's changed since now Ive got the ZSA Voyager and put my
| trackball mouse in the center, over all, it is still a small
| set up. But prior to, I did 60/65% keyboards. A lot of it for
| me was just a spacing issue. Full size keyboards are nice, but
| take up a lot of room with a mouse and then wanting to also use
| a notebook at my desk for notes and designing.
| utopiah wrote:
| > proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys
| than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_
|
| Well "reasons" is quite obviously travel distance and thus
| time. If your fingers are always on, or nearby, the resting
| position (home row) then you go faster and don't stretch in
| repeated weird (ergonomically speaking) ways.
|
| This though comes at a BIG cost, namely layers and other tricks
| to make "far" thing stay "close", which is cognitive. You have
| to remember where things are and how to activate them. Until it
| comes second nature because you drilled for so long then it
| might not be worth it for most.
|
| The "reasons" are not arbitrary.
| danpalmer wrote:
| > here are my thoughts on ... you should literally buy any
| mechanical keyboard ... with programmable firmware
|
| Funnily enough, the Moonlander was not this for me. It's
| programmable, but the round-trip time for programming meant that
| I didn't modify it often, and only modified it in significant
| ways, which meant I'd then forget key combinations immediately.
| This was particularly prevalent for anything where you have to
| tune responsiveness/movement/timing.
|
| I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time
| is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For
| the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file,
| drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's
| amazing how much of a difference that made for me.
|
| So yes, get a keyboard with programmable keys, but not all are
| created equal, find one that lets you have a very tight feedback
| loop and you'll be so much happier.
| mickeyp wrote:
| > I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming
| time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done.
| For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the
| file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+
| seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for
| me.
|
| Actually I point out you can use webusb to flash it (if you use
| Chrome) further down ...
| danpalmer wrote:
| That must be a new feature? This didn't exist when I got my
| UHK, and was why I ended up selling my Moonlander.
|
| How long does the flash take? Having it in Chrome is a great
| step forward, but if it still takes 10-20s to flash that
| would still prevent the sort of feedback loop that I found so
| transformational.
| mickeyp wrote:
| Seconds. I mean, something on the order of that, anyway.
| Fast enough to iterate but I mean it's still the weakest
| link in the iteration chain of course.
| squigz wrote:
| Yeah, unfortunately I have to agree with you. It's just enough
| friction in flashing that I rarely do it.
| marvin-hansen wrote:
| I got a moonlander for programming. The defaulting tenting is
| indeed a lame joke, so I got the platform, which is made out of
| steel(!). It's heavy, but rock solid and stable. I mapped
| commonly used Fn-key combos on the number rows as long press i.e.
| cmd-Fn-4 is a long press on 4. The web UI makes this dead simple
| to setup and customize. That said, I read from the guy who build
| the Svalboard to put the keyboard on a tray below the desk. I
| actually did that and, man, that was a revelation. I have one of
| those motorized desks with adjustable height, and with the tray
| the Moonlander is now roughly on the same level as the arm rest
| from the chair. It reduced the tension in my shoulders
| noticeably. It's a vastly improved typing experience.
| tcmart14 wrote:
| Just got the ZSA Voyager a couple months ago and love it. It goes
| with me to and from work. For me, the biggest draw is just the
| more natural sitting position, I've found that I love having my
| trackball mouse in the center between the two halves along with a
| cup of coffee.
| patel011393 wrote:
| I solved my RSI with rest, a vertical mouse, and ZSA Moonlanders.
| I eventually bought one for home use and one for work use with
| great performance for the past four years. I can't imagine going
| back, especially after replacing the key switches to quieter
| variants.
|
| The split keyboard opens up the middle of my desk to fit an
| adjustable stand (Parblo and ElevationLab work well). So I can
| write and draw by hand if I want.
| wulfstan wrote:
| OPs experience working their way up the keyboard stack is very
| similar to my own. I settled on the Dygma Raise. I now own one of
| the Raise and Raise 2.
|
| Yes, they are a lot of money. I don't have time to game any more,
| and they clearly focus mainly on gamers. But if you're a software
| / IT person your wrists are your livelihood, so for goodness
| sakes invest in them. There is no silver bullet and you will
| probably have to try a number of possible solutions if you suffer
| from wrist and forearm pain when working, but do not ignore it
| and take your workplace ergonomics seriously.
|
| For younger engineers, learn to minimise your "travel" and
| learning editor shortcuts, terminal shortcuts and similar so that
| you can be smoothly productive with constantly shifting from
| mouse to keyboard and back again. And take regular breaks! Get up
| and walk around. If you are WFH get out for walk at lunch.
|
| In general, care for your body so that you may write code into
| your 80s.
| lrem wrote:
| If only this had the F key row. Why is "fewer keys" the first
| decision that every fancy keyboard designer starts with :/
| 2716057 wrote:
| Because the fancy keyboards all support layers, and one key
| ergonomic principle is to avoid unnecessary finger travel ;)
|
| Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2:
| https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2
| layer8 wrote:
| Modifier keys are the main thing that's causing me RSI in
| the first place.
| fleekonpoint wrote:
| Not sure if the author is reading these comments but if you like
| the Moonlander but don't like how the thumb cluster is tied to
| the tenting angle, I strongly recommend their ZSA tenting
| solution. It makes the whole thing a lot sturdier but more
| importantly it lets you adjust the tenting angle independently
| from the thumb cluster angle. You can also probably find used
| ones online.
|
| I know you mention it already in the article but it is really
| worth trying out. You even get more tenting angles that would
| previously be impossible without it. And it just makes the whole
| thing a lot sturdier.
| mickeyp wrote:
| Good to know, thanks! Now that I 3d print (apropos hobbies with
| infinite depth...) I would probably just CAD design and print
| my own instead, but I've come to accept the limitations, such
| as it is, of the moonlander's tenting design.
| marcusb wrote:
| For anyone curious about this, the tenting solution is
| available here[0].
|
| I wrote about it in my review of the Moonlander[1]. In short,
| in addition to much more stable angle adjustment, you get an
| additional 46 degrees of adjustment (11 degrees with the tent
| legs vs 57 degrees with the platform kit.)
|
| It does tend to slide around a bit on a smooth desk, but I
| solved that with some rubber matting glued to the bottom.
|
| 0 - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform
|
| 1 - https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-
| moo...
| zamalek wrote:
| This may or may not change your perspective on keyboards.
| Assuming Covid never happened:
|
| - How many hours a day do you spend driving?
|
| - How much do you/did you spend on your car?
|
| - Did you purchase the cheapest car that just filled the need you
| had (aesthetics, comfort, etc. are therefore off the table, "gets
| N people to N places")? If not, why not?
|
| - How many hours a day do you spend typing?
|
| - How much did you spend on your keyboard?
|
| If you haven't tried a good mechanical keyboard see if you know
| someone who has one and spend some time using it.
| rswail wrote:
| So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I
| did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop
| prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire.
|
| How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with
| cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with
| customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops
| (L: control/option/command, R: command/option/fn) and the
| appropriate MacOS function key tops?
|
| All of the ISO that I could find have one or another of the EU
| layouts, which I don't need or want.
| nine_k wrote:
| That might be hard to find, but pretty easy to configure. Take
| any ISO keyboard you like, buy custom keycaps for the keys you
| want to look different.
| bostik wrote:
| Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO
| layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all
| run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with
| a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a
| physical switch to flip between the two variants.
|
| Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout.
|
| (Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11.
| Both require a wrist support, they are _thick_.)
| rswail wrote:
| The keychron K10 max seems closest to what I want and has the
| keytops I want (with a bit of rearranging). The UK keytops
| are the closest to what I want,
|
| I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's
| probably the closest.
|
| Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's
| no one around to be bothered by the clicking.
|
| Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an
| original IBM PC, I want the clicks :)
| Xss3 wrote:
| Pretty sure the switches are hot swappable.
|
| There are also many more types than just regular cherry mx
| blue nowadays if you want clicky.
|
| My advice would be to buy some clicky switch samples from
| somewhere like this;
| https://mechbox.co.uk/collections/switches-singles
| oerdier wrote:
| After getting shoulder bursitis two years ago--although the
| direct cause was sports, not desk habits--I dove into the world
| of split ergo keyboards. I did get one (a Kyria v3) and learned
| to type on it at an acceptable speed--although still
| significantly slower than my speed on a regular keyboard.
|
| Wanting to optimize my layout, I did research into my typing
| behavior and logged my keystrokes (and storing these logs as
| securely as I would a password). Analysis did give me notable
| insights (e.g. by far my most used keys are arrow keys, for
| selecting text), but my main conclusion was that even during a
| regular full day of programming preferring my keyboard over my
| mouse (tiling window manager, hotkeys, browser extension to
| virtually click on elements using keys), I don't actually type
| that much, and if I do, it is in bursts, never more than 20
| seconds or so.
|
| Although I find typing on a split fun and comfortable, I went
| back to a regular keyboard because the hit in productivity is not
| worth it for me. The experiment did teach me how to improve my
| ergonomics. I optimized my desk height and bought a very flat and
| less wide keyboard, with the completely unused numpad section
| chopped off ("TKL") so if I do grab my mouse there is less
| travel.
| ivanb wrote:
| The whole area is full of contradictions:
|
| - mechanical keys - reduced movement;
|
| - buy a custom build - have industrial build quality;
|
| - barely any movement - good blood flow;
|
| - avoid rolling - type fast;
|
| - concave keyboards - tenting;
|
| - fewer keys - minimal;
|
| - uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback;
|
| - keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely;
|
| - custom layout - conventional shortcuts.
|
| This is ridiculous. I no longer take this field seriously. I get
| it, we get bored and need a new toy sometimes. Some indeed
| acquired a medical condition and need medical equipment to type
| now.
|
| I noticed when I exercise I can sit comfortably on a firm basic
| stool, and when I don't I become a princess on a pea.
|
| How about we start with the basics? Good posture, correct hand
| positions, monitor at the right level, exercise, nutrition. Then
| an IBM Model M would suffice.
| seec wrote:
| This actually exists in every field to some extent.
|
| Humans get bored and at some point, we need to make complicated
| answers/explications/justifications to stuff that are actually
| very simple.
|
| Saying, just practice, pay attention and measure/test progress
| doesn't cut it for many; especially since some don't want to
| come to the realization that they'll probably never get better
| because of their own limitations.
|
| This is why there are always people selling "solutions" that
| are mostly snake oil, the promise is always that it'll get
| better, faster, stronger, whatever.
|
| One area that is ripe with those sorts of things is weight
| loss. It is an extremely simple problem, just eat less calories
| than you consume and you'll be good. But since humans are
| faillible and sometimes have hard time making progress, you get
| all kinds of protocols/tools and whatnot that only achieve the
| same goal but in a roundabout way.
|
| If people believe in them, sometimes it helps (most of the time
| not). This is the exact same with keyboards, the problem is not
| at all with the keyboard, it's all lack of physical activity
| and bad posture. But saying: just take breaks, do calisthenics
| (or swimming or any full body workout sport really) and it will
| get better doesn't satisfy many. Those who want a "quick fix"
| they can buy are disappointed and those who want to sell a
| "solution" can't push their snake oil that would make them
| money (they often are believers themselves, so it doesn't
| matter if it doesn't really make a difference).
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Not to be a Debbie Downer, but even if you use all of the
| correct postures, correct movement, and everything is done
| correctly, you can still end up with issues if you just do the
| same thing over and over.
|
| It's relatively agreed upon nowadays that there actually is no
| "correct posture". The issue is primarily exacerbated by being
| in the same posture all of the time, doing the same movements
| all the time, and especially so in positions that aren't so
| natural for our body - and typing is not a natural
| movement/position for the wrists.
|
| I developed issues despite always standing or sitting on a
| supposed ergonomic char, moving my hands a lot while typing,
| working out and exercising consistently, etc.
|
| Until I started having issues I probably would have also been
| in the same camp that "oh this is ridiculous". Now I take
| anyone with chronic pain much more seriously.
| sph wrote:
| I bought a ZSA Moonlander a few years ago and it went a bit like
| this:
|
| 1. Unpack and immediately set up a Colemak-DH layout. Customize
| the layout twice a day for 4 months. This is PAINFUL, slow and
| unproductive.
|
| 2. Got comfortable with Colemak and stopped doing any typing
| exercises. Still tweaking my layout.
|
| 3. Didn't know where to position my mouse, so I got an Apple
| Trackpad 2 that sits beautifully between the two halves. Works
| great on Linux. Keep the mouse around for gaming.
|
| 4. Finally productive. I make minor changes to my layout every 6
| months. Colemak is ingrained in my muscle memory. It's just so
| comfortable.
|
| And don't worry about forgetting how to type QWERTY; the secret
| to retain muscle memory is that an ortholinear split keyboard is
| sufficiently different from a regular one that it's like learning
| a completely new instrument. Hard at first, but it would be hard
| even if the layout was familiar; might as well then switch to
| something better than QWERTY.
|
| I love my split keyboard now. Games are a bit annoying but I can
| easily switch to my gaming-QWERTY-hybrid layout (QWERTY on the
| left hand, colemak w/ tweaks on the right). Specialist tools like
| Blender might need minor rebinding to find comfort.
|
| When I type on a regular laptop, I find shift+numbers for symbols
| to be hilariously unergonomic compared to my symbol layer, I
| don't know how the hell people cope doing Rust or Haskell or even
| Lisp.
| molteanu wrote:
| Oh, there's even an Emacs' package to configure your programmable
| keyboard with elisp! [1]
|
| Full disclosure: I've made that!
|
| [1] https://github.com/mihaiolteanu/mugur
| quantummagic wrote:
| I use a $20 keyboard/mousepad combo. But with the open source
| Kanata keyboard software, it's more powerful and configurable
| than QMK. It's brilliant. Not for everybody, but even the author
| in the article said 80% of the value add, is QMK.
| npstr wrote:
| I had some RSI at the start of corona from too much home office +
| gaming, what actually helped was getting a trackball (Kensington
| Slimblade Pro) for $work tasks.
|
| Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with
| ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts.
| Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F
| keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to
| use the numpad efficiently, etc. I think most of what is told and
| sold in ergonomics is snake oil. I don't believe ortholinear is
| any good for it, and minimizing movement also seems really
| questionable to me. I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am
| still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work,
| typing speed is not important for many jobs.
|
| I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards
| efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling
| and stuck with the laptop keyboard. I have to accommodate Linux
| ($work), Windows (gaming), Mac (personal projects, open uni).
| That's already challenging enough to get these have similar
| shortcuts. I use a keychron K5 pro that supports all OSs. I can
| work efficiently in all situations, with all OSs, with just a
| single screen. Having a more specialized keyboard (or otherwise
| setup, like relying too heavily on multi-monitors), wouid overall
| surely be detrimental, during the times I could not use it.
|
| What I've learned to avoid pain: Wrists should be straight. For
| me, a slim keyboard helps to achieve that, flat on the table.
| Hands should have some room apart, open chest. Small keyboards
| are bad for that, you'll want a 100% one, or a split. Do some
| lifting, have some muscles. Try a trackball, you might love it.
| Switch how you are sitting. The best sitting position is the next
| one. Get up to think, go for breaks. Don't overly specialize into
| some local/global optimum that is a moving target over your
| lifetime. Use defaults. Mostly boring setup with some minor
| personal tweaks can go a long way.
| rollcat wrote:
| Context: I've been daily driving an Ergodox since 2019.
|
| > And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I
| have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I
| like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use
| the numpad efficiently, etc.
|
| Personally, I find that a layer key is little different from a
| standard modifier key such as Cmd, Alt, etc. Yep, it's one more
| thing to learn, but IMHO it's worth learning: on macOS, you can
| use Cmd+arrow to move around text pretty much the same way
| H/E/Pu/Pd works, but with Mod+arrow, you can just transfer this
| muscle memory to other systems.
|
| I agree with the lack of F-keys, this is a stupid trend that
| caught early on, and now no designer seems to be willing to
| challenge it. I have a different reason though (I prefer Cmd+R
| or similar to Recompile/Run/etc), and it's games. This is my
| StarCraft 2 layout: <https://www.keyboard-layout-
| editor.com/#/gists/8b8dcd36c0abc...>
|
| SC2 is insanely demanding on your raw mechanics, and adding a
| layer is unquestionably a Bad Idea. For many commands
| (production, upgrades, some spells), modal input is hardcoded
| into the engine.
|
| The layout I built is much more optimized than standard
| hotkeys, but the lack of F-keys is brutal and hindering (esp.
| for Zerg). Regardless, I've improved A LOT with this layout -
| which makes me think, how you make it work for you is more
| important than the shape of it.
|
| > I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of
| the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing
| speed is not important for many jobs.
|
| The design goal was never to increase speed (that's mostly
| mechanics), but to allow a more comfortable posture.
|
| > I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards
| efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling
| and stuck with the laptop keyboard.
|
| Again subjective, but I have zero problems switching between
| ortholinear and staggered.
|
| > Use defaults.
|
| Disagree (: most defaults suck. Best case, they're opinionated
| but thoughtful. A consensus is a compromise - always
| questionable. Worst: "we're now just stuck with it". These all
| suck, because they're someone else's opinion. And it's in your
| right to disagree.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I put together https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ a
| while ago to help decide between ergonomic keyboards.
|
| However, it's not become a hobby, and I'm satisfied with the
| keyboards I bought in 2019 and have no plans to replace them.
|
| If anyone is interested in taking over the site, I'm willing to
| transfer the repository, which should mean GitHub make an HTTP
| redirect.
| JSR_FDED wrote:
| I had rapidly worsening RSI, thought my career as a developer was
| ending. Switching to VIM completely solved it. Not to take away
| from what fancy keyboards can do for you, but if you were already
| contemplating VIM then this would be a great (additional) reason
| to try it.
| ryangibb wrote:
| Given the website, is worth noting that keyboards like this can
| avoid the infamous Emacs pinky. I've got the keys two rows below
| the homerow bound to the modifiers right alt, super, alt,
| control, and shift. And reversed on the other hand. This makes
| any modifier shortcuts very ergonomic -- one hand 'chords' the
| modifiers and the other hits the non-modifier key.
| nickzelei wrote:
| I bought a moonlander in 2020 after work gave us a work from home
| credit when we transitioned to remote for Covid. I tried it but
| couldn't get into it and it sat collecting dust for years. In
| 2024 I dove back into splits with a kinesis freestyle 2. I loved
| it as it felt more natural as it's a basic keyboard just split.
|
| After I got used to that I was able to migrate to the moonlander
| pretty easily. I just had to spend the time to sent it up
| properly for programming.
|
| Now I own 2, each with the platform addon, which solves many of
| the issues with tenting as you no longer have to pivot the thumb
| cluster. It is expensive though.
|
| Both keyboards also have shrimp switches to make typing pretty
| quiet.
|
| This combined with a ball mouse have solved my RSI that developed
| a few years ago entirely.
| larrry wrote:
| I have had bad cubital tunnel in the past, enough so that I was
| learning to become ambidextrous to stop using my left hand. A
| surgery helped tremendously in my case, but I'm still prone to
| flare ups if I overuse my pinky.
|
| An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I've reprogrammed it so I
| don't need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys
| (goodbye left shift, you've pained me for too long). I fully
| agree with the articles advice; pair a good programmable keyboard
| with physical activity to keep the hands working long term.
|
| Be warned though: the more customized your keyboard the harder it
| is type when using a laptop or friends keyboard.
| sesm wrote:
| I'm using Ergodox for 9 years and still can touch type fluently
| on laptop keyboard. However, I never do heavy programming tasks
| on the laptop, only messaging, notes and small fixes.
|
| I think the more customized your Ergodox layout is the easier
| it is for the brain to treat 2 different keyboards as 2
| different input devices.
| ChoGGi wrote:
| Kinda off topic for this discussion, but has anyone found a 8 key
| macro keyboard that doesn't wear out after a few months?
|
| It seems to be the usb plug failing that does it.
| spit2wind wrote:
| Steno is 100% the way to go to avoid and heal RSI. Infinitely
| more ergonomic. It also erases much of the difference between
| Emacs and VIM (assuming you use repeat and 1up). Yes, it has to
| be learned. But you already learned Emacs or VIM, so clearly
| you're not afraid to invest a little now for a big return later
| (e.g. no RSI). It's also fun.
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