[HN Gopher] Car has more than 1.2M km on it - and it's still goi...
___________________________________________________________________
Car has more than 1.2M km on it - and it's still going strong
Author : Sgt_Apone
Score : 183 points
Date : 2025-08-06 00:53 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cbc.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cbc.ca)
| SilverElfin wrote:
| > Over the years, nearly everything on the vehicle has been
| replaced or repaired, and Campbell says the only original part is
| likely the body, and even that has had work done on it.
|
| To me this makes it less interesting. I would be amazed if the
| original parts (outside of what gets replaced for maintenance)
| lasted that long. But it's hard to judge how durable the car is
| when everything has been replaced
| moffkalast wrote:
| A literal ship of Theseus, arguably it's not even the same car.
| jose_mr wrote:
| But when exactly did it stop being the same car?
| diggan wrote:
| When you changed the VIN :)
| moffkalast wrote:
| An easy way to say would be when it's still 50% original,
| but I think an interesting way to look at it is that it
| becomes a whole new thing after every major change.
|
| First it's his new car, then it becomes his new car with
| new tires, and then his car with new windshield wipers, and
| finally his old car with all new parts and some old ones.
| None of them are the same car.
|
| I think in cases where it' a major rebuild, like turning a
| WW2 Minesweeper first into a ferry, and finally into
| Cousteau's research ship Calypso this outlook is more
| obvious. Are these ships all the same despite getting
| almost a full refit at each stage? I would say none of them
| are the same ship, but completely separate "things" with
| some old and some new parts.
| jama211 wrote:
| It hasn't, the law decided a car is it's shell and that's
| it.
| bot403 wrote:
| Fun fact, on average most (not all though) of the cells in
| your body are brand new after 7 years. When do you stop
| being you and take a new name?
| diggan wrote:
| At least we're not going around saying "diggan says the
| only original part of his person is likely the
| body/chassi"
| griffzhowl wrote:
| This kind of thing is repeated often, but I don't think
| it's true. For one thing, how would tattoos last so long
| then?
|
| More relevantly, I don't think neurons are replaced.
| There must be some material churn in the atoms and
| molecules that make them up, but even then different for
| different molecules - e.g. I don't know how much of our
| DNA molecules get replaced over a lifespan from the
| repair or other mechanisms.
| jorams wrote:
| The "on average" is doing an awful lot of work. Some
| cells are never replaced, some organs are replaced every
| few years or even partially over decades, some organs are
| replaced every few months (one of which is the skin).
|
| Tattoos however, IIUC, sort of "float" between cells, and
| as those cells are replaced one-by-one the ink is kept in
| place by the surrounding cells that are still there.
| cobbzilla wrote:
| I suppose tattoo ink isn't all in the cells. I'd guess
| the ink within intracellular spaces is never removed by
| the body (or very, very slowly).
| nayuki wrote:
| > how would tattoos last so long
|
| Answered by Kurzgesagt:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGggU-Cxhv0
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| And what if you took the other parts and built a separate
| car from them?
| vntok wrote:
| You've just answered your own question, haven't you? If
| it's _a separate car_ then it can 't be the original by
| definition.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| If you completely disassemble a car then reassemble it,
| is it the same car?
|
| What if you disassemble all of the car except the wheels
| and reassemble it but with new wheels?
|
| How about if you also exclude the seats too.
|
| At what point does the answer change? That's the whole
| point of the ship of theseus.
| sonorous_sub wrote:
| No man ever slides behind the wheel of the same Tercel twice.
| danans wrote:
| > No man ever slides behind the wheel of the same Tercel
| twice.
|
| _Pantercel Rhei_
| e4325f wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVaeY
| HKH2 wrote:
| Not literal.
| Glawen wrote:
| Agree, it is not that impressive knowing that. Many 80s 90s
| Mercedes achieved that, and some with original engine
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| This kind of mileage is unusual with cars but it's pretty
| normal for semis. But even with those, engines get overhauled
| and there's lots of cumulative maintenance over the years.
| There are still trucks build in the sixties in service in some
| places.
|
| With EVs, we might get some battery packs and drive trains
| actually lasting this long. Maybe not with nmc batteries. But
| some lfp batteries seem to have enough charge cycles on paper
| that they really could last that long. 5000 charge cycles at
| 300 miles per charge adds up to about 1.5M miles. Of course
| lots of other things might fail. But at least electrical motors
| are known to be pretty durable. That's not a common failure
| point on EVs as far as I know. But there's plenty of other
| stuff in EVs (electronics, cooling systems, suspension, etc.)
| that can break.
|
| Of course, it will be a while before we'll see EVs that have
| driven that far as those type of batteries have only been on
| the market for a few years and even with 100K miles driven per
| year (which is a lot), it would take 12 years to get to 1.2M.
| This Toyota took quite a few decades to get there.
|
| According to the article, this car actually wasn't particularly
| durable (the words 'rust buckets' were used). But if you just
| keep patching it up, of course it will run fine. And greasing
| up all the bits that would normally rust seems smart as well.
| teiferer wrote:
| > With EVs, we might get some battery packs and drive trains
| actually lasting this long.
|
| I doubt it. The components in modern cars are not made to
| last as long. Neither is the software. Ever tried a 15 year
| old Iphone? A Tesla won't feel much different.
|
| Everything is meant to be consumed nowadays, and eventually,
| sooner rather than later, replaced.
| benjiro wrote:
| And you get the luxury of paying 50% more, for that
| privilege (vs a ICE engine). I said it before, give me that
| BYD (reverse) hybrid engine, that does 1080km on a single
| tank.
|
| Unfortunately, battery tech despite all the lab "super
| improvements" are not seeing any major gains in the field.
| And a lot of money has been going into that.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Are they affordable 4wd ICE with like 500hp and 500nm of
| torque, a flat torque curve, no lag, while still being
| smooth and reliable?
| teiferer wrote:
| The issue is not EV vs ICE. It's that things are not
| built to last or to be easily maintainable / serviceable.
| A modern car is not just like a smartphone you are
| sitting inside of, it's a server rack full of stuff. Of
| course that's outdated 1-2 decades from now and nobody is
| going to provide updated software anymore.
|
| All things equal I'd even expect this to be worse with an
| ICE because of higher complexity, though the tech is more
| mature and stable at this point and the ICE manufacturing
| more traditionalist than the EV space.
| MBCook wrote:
| There was recently an article about someone with a 3 year
| old Ford Mustang Mach E with 250k miles (400k KM).
|
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/meet-the-man-with-
| the-250000-m...
|
| Battery is still over 90%. And given that he's having to do
| a full charge every day for the amount he drives, that's
| pretty impressive. Still on the original brake pads too.
|
| Sounds like all he's really had to do is put on new tires a
| couple of times.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I have a 7 year old EV with 160k miles (250km).
|
| Battery has just now dipped below 90% it's new range. Age
| is surprisingly a pretty big factor in how long the
| batteries will last. More so than a lot of other factors
| (including mileage).
| benjiro wrote:
| One of the big questions is going to be, can you still find
| the battery packs 15 year, 20, 30 years later. The problem is
| that rebuilding battery packs is not a joke (and expensive).
| Assuming the same cells can be found / are not some crap 3th
| party manufactured in the future.
|
| Lets also not forget that battery packs are full of
| electronics, BMS, and other items that may be less forgiving
| on a rebuild where batteries may be off in voltage or have a
| different charge cycle.
|
| The future is going to be "interesting", especially for car
| collectors.
|
| Getting a old antique car running is often not that hard (as
| long as it has not been standing where water can enter the
| engine. New hoses, oil changes, clean filters, and you can
| often get engines that have stood outside for 15, 20 years
| going again. Sure, its going to smoke, may need new piston
| rings, ... and Water being the prime killer.
|
| But a battery pack in those conditions?
|
| > 5000 charge cycles at 300 miles per charge adds up to about
| 1.5M miles.
|
| Under ideal driving / charge situations...
|
| * Hot areas like Spain. For instance, its know that batteries
| from EVs in hot area's tend to be much more degraded, then
| from cooler areas (make sense).
|
| * Did they fast charge those batteries = your going to cycle
| down a LOT more. Remember, those 6000 cycle for stuff like
| LiPo batteries are based upon slow charging. General tip for
| people with solar: Overspec your battery sizes, your going to
| thank me.
|
| * Did they always charge to 100%? What is the actual hidden
| reserve on a battery pack? Is it 5%, 10%?
|
| * How many times did they drive below the 20% range.
|
| There is a lot of elements that interact with your battery
| life. I mean, how many of use have thrown out perfectly good
| smartphone because the battery life became a disaster after
| only a few years. And the cost to replace the battery was not
| in proportion.
|
| Recently people driving to holiday here in Europe had fun
| times... 15 a 25min wait times at charge stations, and when
| they hit 80% they got kicked off the fast chargers (because
| after 80% it becomes very slow to charge up those last 20%).
| Slow charging was not allowed. So people needed to stop
| around every 60 a 70% of their battery range on their holiday
| trip. Wait 15 a 25 min for a charger, then wait another 45
| min for their charge. While the guy with his ICE engine,
| stops, tanks in 5 minutes, goes for another 50% more
| distance.
| wcoenen wrote:
| > _Recently people driving to holiday here in Europe had
| fun times... 15 a 25min wait times at charge stations_
|
| My last two holidays in Europe I drove an EV about 1000 km
| to a holiday destination, and back again. So far I have
| never had to queue to charge.
|
| I did notice that it is not unusual for a rest stop with
| only 2 to 4 fast chargers to be fully occupied. But if you
| use an app like ABRP to plan ahead, then it will tend to
| guide you to larger charging sites (e.g. 20 to 30 fast
| chargers of a few different brands). These charge planning
| apps also have live data about how many chargers are
| currently in use, so they will not send you to a fully
| occupied site if there are alternatives.
|
| YMMV and the situation will change every year of course, as
| more EVs are added. Norway is the most advanced in Europe
| when it comes to car electrification, so if there are
| issues I guess they will show up over there first.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Battery degradation generally isn't nearly as much of an
| issue with modern EVs. The active management systems they
| use are much more sophisticated and capable of keeping the
| battery in good condition than those of a smartphone. There
| are plenty of examples on the road with 200-300k miles
| still retaining 80-90% capacity.
|
| Charging station wait times comes down to growing pains.
| Not enough stations combined with battery tech not yet
| having reached maturity. It'll fix itself as more stations
| are installed and the technology continues to advance. The
| only bad thing to do would be to stop.
|
| As far as antique cars go, I'm not too worried because both
| energy density in batteries and efficiency in motors has
| been increasing substantially over time. By the time these
| cars are old enough to be antiques, people will want to do
| full retrofits with modern batteries and motors anyway
| because what they came with will look primitive and clunky
| in comparison. The ceiling for potential on EV tech is much
| higher than it is for ICE based systems.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I believe you are overthinking things. These aren't hard to
| overcome problems. Batteries are fundamentally very simple
| and they are designed to handle wide variations. Simple
| enough that there are already a bunch of shops that will
| rebuild and restore batteries using volt meters to yank
| (and sometimes replace) bad cells.
|
| As for the factors affecting battery life, it's looking
| like age above everything else is the primary killer of
| batteries. Temp is a solved problem, all modern EVs have a
| cooling/heating system.
|
| Cell phone batteries are also different from EV batteries.
| You won't find a cell phone with an LFP. that's because
| cell phones target energy density above all else.
|
| As for travel charging, 15 to 25 waits are typical and
| charging past 80% is slow. A battery at 10% can accept
| 350kW of power. Batteries are 80% typically can't accept
| more than 80kW or less. The 80% to 100% time can take twice
| as long as the 0 to 80 time.
|
| Waiting for a charger to be available is an infrastructure
| problem. I've had to wait on gas pumps to be available
| during busy times. Conversely, the most I've waited to
| charge has been 10 minutes (and I've traveled every
| thanksgiving for 7 years of EV ownership).
|
| The 20 minute break is welcome after driving 2->3 hours.
| beala wrote:
| Whether or not suitable battery replacements exist in 10
| years is probably a function of demand. If there's a large
| demand for replacements, the market will provide. It's
| probably worth buying a popular model if you plan on
| keeping your EV for 20 years. For example, you should
| probably stay away from the Fisker Ocean [1], but I bet
| Tesla Model 3s will be well supported 20 years from now.
|
| My metaquestion is: is it even rational to keep a car for
| 20 or 30 years? To me, the subject of the article seems
| penny wise but pound foolish. Certainly at some point since
| 1985, an upgrade would have been positive expected value
| for better safety, mileage, and comfort.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Ocean
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Up until the point that parts are no longer available, or
| so rare that their cost is prohibitive, it's almost
| certainly cheaper for him to keep the car than buy a new
| one. This also includes the fact that he does almost all
| the repairs himself, so it's also a hobby for him. He's
| also cannibalizing spare parts from several other salvage
| cars he has acquired.
|
| A new car has so much depreciation in the first couple of
| years that it's a terrible idea for most people. Buying
| used cars and either maintaining them or just driving
| them into the ground and then buying another used car is
| almost always cheaper.
| TimByte wrote:
| I suspect in 30 years we'll be seeing million-mile EVs... but
| they'll probably be on their second or third infotainment
| system
| SoftTalker wrote:
| They still have control arms, ball joints, shocks, tie
| rods, bearings, and rubber and plastic seals and other bits
| that will wear out, dry out, or degrade. Not to mention a
| lot of electronics with limited-life components such as
| capacitors. The oldest modern EVs are just now getting to
| the age where those sorts of repairs will start to become
| necessary.
| torginus wrote:
| I think history will show people have vastly overestimated
| the durability of EV and not just because of batteries.
|
| Inverters have IGBTs and capacitors, both of which are wear
| items. I don't have an EV, but just got solar, and my
| installer told me that I can expect the inverter will need
| replacing in 15 years.
|
| And solar inverters push far less wattage at far more benign
| circumstances than cars' do, which push 100s of kWs peak in
| hot and cold, mud and rain.
| jama211 wrote:
| Tbf they said "nearly" everything. Probably it's the same
| engine block, transmission housing, etc. And of course the
| shell, which is the most important. And I bet loads of interior
| too so where you sit feels very familiar.
| diggan wrote:
| > Probably it's the same engine block, transmission housing,
| etc.
|
| If someone says "the only original part is likely the body",
| then that makes it sound like they've replaced pretty much
| everything except the body itself, including everything about
| the engine and transmission.
| mrtbld wrote:
| The odometer most likely have not been replaced too
| epolanski wrote:
| I mean, it depends on the kind of work to be honest. Has he
| ever had to replace the whole engine or something?
|
| Because if you get chain timing issues on a 2010 BMW diesel,
| you ain't repairing that, it's more expensive than a new car.
| diggan wrote:
| > you ain't repairing that, it's more expensive than a new
| car.
|
| Sometimes we're more connected/sentimental about specific
| physical items, than the prices themselves. I kind of feel
| like you have to be a special sort of person to own a BMW, so
| wouldn't surprise me that same "special" person would pay
| more to repair their specific car than replacing it with an
| identical one but without that issue.
| eptcyka wrote:
| Doubt there's a BMW enthusiast that will go out of their
| way to repair a 2010s diesel.
| hbs18 wrote:
| You're blowing it out of proportion. A repair like that
| costs between 1-2k euros. Even non-enthusiasts are
| repairing that, at least those outside of wealthy western
| Europe.
| eptcyka wrote:
| Not when the car itself costs about as much.
| epolanski wrote:
| No, you need to change the whole engine if you get chain
| timing issues. And a new engine is more than the car
| itself.
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| For a manual 335d people would yeah.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Because if you get chain timing issues on a 2010 BMW
| diesel, you ain't repairing that, it's more expensive than a
| new car.
|
| In the article the guy has 3 whole spare cars for donor parts
| and he does all the work himself. He's not paying mechanic
| rates or even buying new parts (which are no longer
| available).
|
| The amount of time and effort he's put into this car is
| undoubtedly more expensive than buying a new car at this
| point, unless you count his time and free.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > unless you count his time and free.
|
| Which you generally should, because unless he was going to
| otherwise be paid for that time there is no actual
| opportunity cost. The "cost" of one's time is only a
| meaningful metric inasmuch as one is giving up something
| which would be more profitable.
| userbinator wrote:
| 1M km (Tm?) is less than 750k miles, for those more familiar
| with customary units.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irv_Gordon had a Volvo with over
| 3.25 million miles (5.2Tm), although it's also had 3 engine
| rebuilds.
| mykowebhn wrote:
| "Customary units"? I hate to break it to you, but most of the
| world uses the metric system.
|
| And the conversion is actually fairly simple. 1M km is 600k
| miles, so you were in the ballpark.
| kelnos wrote:
| I hate you break it to you, but "customary units" is what
| they are called, regardless of the (lack of) prevalence of
| that custom.
| kashunstva wrote:
| Interesting use of the term _customary_! To add to the
| complexity of this, weren't the customary units of length
| and mass were defined in the U.S in the late 1800's by
| reference to international metric standards - the
| Mendenhall order?
| technothrasher wrote:
| Typically they're called "US customary units" outside of
| the grand old U. S. of A, who refused to adopt any sort
| of metric system way back in the 19th century because
| they were "ungodly".
| sillystuff wrote:
| Perhaps "ungodly" explains current refusal, but original
| reason U.S. does not use metric is pirates stole the
| metric standards as they were being shipped over from
| France.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
| way/2017/12/28/574044232...
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| Metrication will happen after Americans give up ICE
| vehicles like the Ford Expedition, ICE gestapo,
| ultraprocessed hamburgers, and climate change denial.
|
| Metric is really far simpler, while Freedom Units are like
| going back to counting change in Roman-inspired PSsd.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > Metric is really far simpler...
|
| For the common, everyday use case it isn't meaningfully
| simpler, which is why the US hasn't switched. The
| conversions are certainly harder to memorize, but by the
| time you're an adult you have memorized all the common
| ones (12 inches to a foot, and so on) so that downside
| only applies to people who have to learn this stuff
| (largely children, who don't get a vote). The math is
| also harder than just moving decimal points, but when you
| carry a computer in your pocket that isn't actually
| making life harder for anyone.
|
| So, the two big downsides of the imperial system
| (conversions are harder to learn and the math is harder)
| aren't actually a problem for the vast majority of adults
| in the US. But switching to metric _would_ cause a ton of
| friction as you have to relearn how to estimate
| measurements for everything all over again. And those two
| factors combined are why the US doesn 't switch. Most
| people will not gain any upside, while they have to pay
| significant downsides. It's perfectly rational to not
| switch when that is the case! You could argue that it's
| selfish (because future generations of kids have to learn
| the conversions, so they _would_ benefit from metric and
| they don 't incur the downside either), but it's not
| _stupid_. As much as people like to go "haha people in
| the US are so stupid for not switching to metric", that
| simply is not the case.
| untech wrote:
| When I think about problems with Customary Units, I think
| not about decimality, but that the units are too
| disconnected. For example, there are BTUs and HPs that
| mean the same thing (power), but are wildly non-connected
| both to each other and to other units. While in SI, a
| Watt is Joule per second, a Joule is Newton times meter,
| a Newton is kilogram times meters per second squared, and
| voila, you have arrived at basic units. Your AC, your PC
| and your electric car have power consumption in the same
| units, and the same units are on your bill. This is what
| valuable, and not Greek prefixes.
| __d wrote:
| And yet, many other countries have managed to transition
| to metric measurements without too much issue.
|
| My parents were in their 30's when Australia switched.
| They instinctively think in feet/inches, pounds for body
| weight (especially babies), but oddly miles hasn't
| lasted.
|
| I was educated in metric, but learned imperial lengths
| doing woodwork with my dad. I don't have any intuition in
| pounds or miles, but feet (up to maybe 10) and inches are
| ok.
|
| My son is purely metric. He can do the arithmetic, but
| has no intuitive sense in any imperial units.
|
| So .. my anecdata is that it takes two generations to
| really switch.
| Delk wrote:
| Gm, not Tm. A kilo is a thousand, and a million kilos is a
| billion. So giga, not tera.
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| It's all about getting creative with junk yards and third-party
| NLA substitute part sellers.
| energy123 wrote:
| Legend says he even replaced the odometer
| matt_s wrote:
| I don't think anything with mechanical moving parts is going to
| last that long, with regular usage, and have original parts.
|
| The fact that the owner can keep it going is a testament to the
| maintainability of combustion engines that don't have high tech
| computers in them.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > The fact that the owner can keep it going is a testament to
| the maintainability of combustion engines that don't have
| high tech computers in them.
|
| New engines with modern ECUs are every bit as maintainable.
|
| The ECU doesn't make an engine less maintainable. Modern
| engines would have more moving pieces such as variable valve
| timing but otherwise they're very similar in concept and
| maintenance.
| matt_s wrote:
| One part of maintainability is cost. And a simpler
| mechanical engine without proprietary ECUs is going to be
| cheaper to maintain, provided parts are available.
|
| If someone encounters issues with an ECU and it needs
| replacement at $1k-2k they might just consider the costs
| and that being a down payment on a new vehicle vs.
| repairing. Labor costs more than parts for complicated
| electrical/computer/engine problems. Electrical issues in
| modern vehicles don't appear to be easy to troubleshoot,
| sometimes require proprietary tools. A simpler mechanical
| engine could be DIY repaired and running, check out the
| "low-buck garage" youtube channel and the $2 Jeep series as
| an example.
|
| I'm not advocating something like going back to computer-
| less, inefficient, stinky, loud cars, just pointing out
| that when we add computers to things, it makes them less
| maintainable to the average person.
| jmb99 wrote:
| > I don't think anything with mechanical moving parts is
| going to last that long, with regular usage, and have
| original parts.
|
| I know of at least two cars with 800k km with original
| engines. Both GM small blocks (Gen 2, multiport fuel
| injection so computer-controlled). Neither engine has been
| opened since they rolled off the floor in the 90s. They're
| not particularly efficient (only about 270HP out of 5.7L) but
| if taken care of, they probably will go forever.
|
| Definitely an exception, though. Very little else on those
| cars is still original. But it can be done.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| There are definitely a few engine designs out there that
| won the design lottery in terms of longevity. I know a guy
| that has close to half a million miles on a Jeep Cherokee
| with the old AMC 4-liter straight six, and the only engine
| work done other than plugs and wires is replacing the water
| pump at 250k. I've got ~186k on my Jeep with the same
| engine, and it doesn't even burn any oil yet.
| p1esk wrote:
| _I don 't think anything with mechanical moving parts is
| going to last that long, with regular usage, and have
| original parts._
|
| You should visit any third world country: plenty of old cars
| still running around.
| TimByte wrote:
| I get that, but I think the impressive part here isn't that the
| original parts are still there: it's that the car has been kept
| on the road for 40 years and 1.2M km through sheer persistence
| and maintenance
| vegancap wrote:
| Toyota and Honda engines are just ridiculous
| HelloUsername wrote:
| As soon as I read the title, I knew it was gonna be about
| Toyota.
| Ccecil wrote:
| Keep fixing it...ignore the odometer.
|
| This is the only way to exceed the forging cost.
| Tade0 wrote:
| It's less than (originally Matt Farah's) million mile Lexus:
|
| https://www.autoevolution.com/news/mechanic-restores-an-ls-4...
|
| Although the current owner's plan to do a cannonball run in it is
| something I find off-putting. His previous stupid idea was to put
| a turbocharger and see how long it will last, fortunately his
| fans dissuaded him from doing it.
| jacquesm wrote:
| They're both Toyota's, but the Lexus cost an order of magnitude
| more so by that measure it is not nearly as impressive. This is
| a low end car we're talking about.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Low end cars tend to be more reliable as they're:
|
| 1. Built at a larger scale and at lower margins, so
| thoroughly tested beforehand.
|
| 2. Equipped with fewer features which might require
| maintenance.
|
| 3. Using generationally older powertrains oriented for
| economy, not performance.
|
| That being said Lexus' original differentiator was
| reliability - particularly versus its peers price wise.
|
| Also I guess this doesn't apply to various four wheeled
| appliance manufacturers like GM, Ford, Stellantis, Renault-
| Nissan-Mitsubishi, all of whom do cheap out on essential
| components.
| mrweasel wrote:
| There are some calculations that makes replacing a old gas or
| diesel powered car more environmentally friendly, as compered to
| buying a new electric car. I do wonder where the tipping point is
| though, and if there isn't an environmental argument to be made
| that not only should government bad the sale of new internal
| combustion engine cars, but they should also ban cars with an
| expected lifespan shorter than e.g. 15 - 20 years.
| realusername wrote:
| The calculation I've seen put it around 50k km, depends of how
| good the local grid is of course.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| If externalities were correctly priced in to fuel, rare earths,
| rubber, road wear etc then it would be easy to see, the cheaper
| the better.
|
| But they aren't, not even close. Oil is massively subisidised
| by the military before the environmental costs. Brake
| particulates and tyres don't cover the cost of microplastics
| and lung damage, heavy cars don't pay anywhere near the damage
| they cause to the roads and bridges etc.
|
| Due to this you can argue pretty much whatever you want by
| ignoring certain costs depending what you want to come out
| with.
|
| My petrol car is 20 years old, it's done 70,000 miles, it
| weighs about 1,000kg and burns through 300 litres of unleaded
| each year to do the 3,000 miles I do in it.
|
| I suspect scrapping and replacing this with even a small
| electric car would not be globally environmentally worthwhile.
| There may be improvements to local air quality assuming
| regenerative breaking etc, that may be offset by increased tyre
| and road wear though, even ignoring the impact of the co2 to
| generate the 80kWh a year it would require.
| while_true_ wrote:
| 20 year old cars tend to be heavy polluters because they
| don't meet the latest emissions standards. Here in California
| the state will buy old cars and scrap them to get dirty
| emitters out of service. Also, nearly every day electrical
| generation is over 50% using solar, wind or hydro so EVs are
| cleaner here than any ICE vehicle by far.
| hdgvhicv wrote:
| Well my 20 year old car meets the various clean air zone
| emission standards that newer cars fail to
|
| However even if it didn't, if I used it for 200 miles a
| year would it make sense to buy a new electric car?
|
| It's never clear cut, and it's practically impossible to
| make the best decision in any given case. You can make a
| regulation which will on aggregate lead to less damage but
| there will always be exceptions, and on a case by case
| basis it's extremely difficult to measure the damage a
| given scenario applies. How many "units of badness" does
| buying a new 2 ton electric car before you move it a single
| mile. Id wager it's more than an existing petrol car
| burning 1 litre of unleaded petrol on existing tyres and
| brake discs.
|
| The difficulty is measuring total impact of the choice.
| Sure buying a new petrol car and driving 20k miles a year
| for 6 years will be worse than buying a new electric car
| and driving 20k miles a year for 6 years. That's not where
| the line is.
| while_true_ wrote:
| That 1985 Toyota emits more GHG and NOx per mile than a new
| vehicle because it wasn't built to meet the latest US or
| Canadian emissions standards. Older vehicles emit more
| pollutants so in some US states the government will buy the car
| to have it scrapped, thus improving the overall fleet emissions
| statewide. In California there are owners who keep and maintain
| pre-1975 vehicles because they have little or no smog control
| systems, are easy to work on, and they are exempt from
| mandatory bi-annual smog testing.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that holding onto my '98 Civic is more
| environmentally friendly than buying a new EV - especially
| since I only drive ~3000 miles/year (If I drove 10K+ miles/year
| then the calculation would likely skew towards an EV). The
| Civic still runs great and it's easy to repair when something
| does go wrong. And the mileage is quite good - ~30MPG combined
| (easily get 37MPG on the freeway).
| raptorraver wrote:
| I wonder how many of the cars manufactured today are still here
| after million kilometers. My guess is none as they are impossible
| to fix yourself.
| HPsquared wrote:
| One saving grace is a lot of the tricky electronic parts are
| shared between several models, many different manufacturers
| even.
|
| As long as some enterprising pirate (probably a shady Russian
| forum) keeps hold of all the model-specific software.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > I wonder how many of the cars manufactured today are still
| here after million kilometers
|
| The overwhelming majority of 1980s Toyota Tercels do not make
| it to a million kilometers. This one didn't, either. It has had
| every part replaced, many multiple times over.
|
| The owner has 3 donor parts cars and there's a photo of his
| piles of parts like alternators. The original car didn't last a
| million kilometers. He's just been replacing parts constantly.
|
| > My guess is none as they are impossible to fix yourself.
|
| No they're not. I have a lot of car friends and we all do most
| of our own work. One of them has now opened a shop and services
| BMWs including engine rebuilds of modern engines.
|
| This is a myth. Service manuals are available. Even the digital
| repair tools are widely pirated, but you can generally buy a
| short term license to use them yourself if you want.
| swarnie wrote:
| > This car has 1,253,070 kilometres on it -- and counting.
|
| > When it turned over from 999,999 kilometres to 000,000
| kilometres in September 2017
|
| The idea of averaging 31k miles a year is just insane to me. My
| car hasn't done that since i bought it new 8 years ago.
| Sylarr wrote:
| It's 31k kilometers so around 20k miles.
| mvanbaak wrote:
| pretty normal commute
| SeanSullivan86 wrote:
| It's higher than average/median in the US, but certainly
| not exceptional. Pretty normal for certain groups of
| people. There's a huge gap in miles driven between urban
| and rural area. US average is something like 13-15k miles
| per year (for all driving, not just commute).
|
| 20,000 miles solely for commuting would be about 43 miles
| each way (if you work 235 days per year), which is
| obviously more unusual than 20k total miles driven from all
| sources.
| franze wrote:
| > Over the years, nearly everything on the vehicle has been
| replaced or repaired, and Campbell says the only original part is
| likely the body, and even that has had work done on it.
|
| aka
|
| This is my grandfather's axe. My father replaced the handle. I
| replaced the head.
| jasoncartwright wrote:
| In the UK we call this Trigger's Broom
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM
| HPsquared wrote:
| Maybe the axe exists as the interface point between the pieces.
| And the history logbook.
| amelius wrote:
| Ship of Theseus
| donatj wrote:
| 745,645 miles for Americans like myself who can't be bothered to
| do the conversion.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| My brorher got 350,000 miles in a cheap Hyundai doing the oil
| changes himself. He only replaced the water pump before he
| traded it in for a Kia. He is nearly at 250,000 on the Kia with
| no repairs needed so far.
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| More than Otto. Wow.
|
| I have an 85 Vanagon Westfalia with a modest 450k km.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Air-cooled engine? The wasserboxers were terrible.
| SquareWheel wrote:
| 1.2 _gigametres_? That 's traveled further than some satellites.
| kentiko wrote:
| > Since then, he's used it as his daily driver, putting on at
| least 120 kilometres a day driving from his home in Wyses Corner,
| N.S., to Halifax and back each day of his working life.
|
| 120km per day of commuting is crazy to me. I work from home and
| occasionally do a 14km bicycle commute to the office.
| jacquesm wrote:
| In Canada, the USA and Australia this is nothing special. Low
| population density means long commutes.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Is it still the same car?
| SebFender wrote:
| Back in the 90's my dad and I put a more than 500k on a Volvo 740
| and mostly running original parts (oil filters, brakes etc were
| changed throughout the decade 84/96 - Quebec winters included).
|
| The car ran fine and was ultimately sold to a taxi driver that
| apparently brought it to close to a million (no proof though).
|
| I think now days people treat cars like phones. Minimal continual
| maintenance can work wonders and save you a bundle in the
| process.
| nickd2001 wrote:
| A friend bought a 14-yr-old one of these for little at an auction
| in 1999. As someone who knew little about cars, her logic was, it
| "looked OK' and had had one owner, and crucially, the radio was
| tuned to a NPR classical music station and therefore anyone who
| listened to that would have treated their car responsibly. ;)
| Suffice to say, this was an excellent purchase, reliable and
| inexpensive to run, in fact in order to find out whether some
| maintenance was due or not she managed to track down the previous
| owner who turned out to be a middle-aged woman who was just as
| responsible as my friend imagined. ;)
| unclenoriega wrote:
| This reminds me of going hill hopping as a kid with my radio
| tuned to the local NPR classical music station. Once when I
| went a little airborne, my engine shutoff upon landing. (It
| restarted OK though.)
| whartung wrote:
| I have been "a little airborne" in a Toyota Tercel, we and
| the vehicle survived OK. I dragged one of those over large
| chunks of the Nevada desert. FWD FTW. I sometimes shiver
| looking back at the places we took that thing.
|
| We didn't have an NPR Classical Music station to listen to,
| however.
|
| I will note in the future, however, when selling my car, to
| tune it to NPR.
| buyucu wrote:
| I knew it was a Toyota before I read the article!
| gchamonlive wrote:
| > Over the years, nearly everything on the vehicle has been
| replaced or repaired, and Campbell says the only original part is
| likely the body, and even that has had work done on it.
|
| Tercel of Theseus
| physix wrote:
| When I lived in Germany, in the 90s, I regularly sat in diesel
| Mercedes Benz taxis with over a million kms under the hood.
| Private drivers usually. Many had giant mileages.
|
| We used to say (tongue in cheek) that after 250k, the MB diesel
| engine was broken in. I don't think MB makes them like they used
| to anymore.
| moltar wrote:
| Same in Canada but in specially made taxi grade Crown Vics
| (85B)
|
| Someone I knew had it and they drove it 24/7 in 3 shifts and it
| had over a million kilometers on it. Visually looked fine and
| ran fine.
| morkalork wrote:
| I remember someone from the prairies telling me that used
| Crown Vics were the ideal first car for teenagers and were
| highly sought after in the 90s/2000s.
| _heimdall wrote:
| No diesel engine is made well these days in my opinion, at
| least as far as passenger vehicles go.
|
| Emissions systems on diesel engines have made the reliability
| pretty abysmal. That's not to say improving emissions isn't a
| good goal, but it was implemented terribly.
|
| Between regulators over prescribing solutions and car companies
| finding the quickest and cheapest "fix" every step of the way,
| we ended with horribly complex motors that break down much
| earlier than before. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of
| total emissions when a 90s diesel is still on the road today
| compared to a newer diesel that is effectively junk in 10 years
| or a couple hundred thousand miles.
| amluto wrote:
| Given that one single old car without functioning emission
| controls will stink up an entire block far more than that
| entire block full of ordinary, modern traffic, I would expect
| that the (non-CO2) air pollution from an old diesel is _far_
| higher than that from building and operating new diesel
| vehicles.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Even then, a EURO5 diesel still makes quite a stink. Of
| course, even an EU6+OPF gasoline car still puts out air
| akin to a dying dog's fart.
|
| ICE vehicles just can't go away quickly enough (and we
| should aggressively get stinky vehicles like everything
| pre-EU5 and loud vehicles like motorcycles and scooters off
| the road first).
|
| I'm not huge on regulation, but if anything MIV is
| underregulated. Even in the EU anything that was street-
| legal at some point in the past 70 years is grandfathered
| in, nevermind that illegal vehicle modifications - if
| caught - at most earn a slap on the wrist. That's
| enormously dumb and doesn't fly anywhere else.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| I can't wait for tiny engines like on things like weed
| eaters and leaf blowers to go extinct. Noisy, smelly as
| hell, generally awful.
| cperciva wrote:
| A lot of cities have banned them now, at least for
| personal use. (Last time this was debated in my area,
| some businesses had justifications for why they couldn't
| just use electric tools, but none of those applied to
| regular homeowners.)
| SoftTalker wrote:
| A lawn service that is working 8-10 hours a day can't use
| battery tools unless they buy a lot of batteries and/or
| have a way to recharge them in the field (from a
| gasoline-powered generator, most likely). So their
| complaint has some validity.
| senorrib wrote:
| BS. Gasoline is just more convenient and cheaper for
| them. 40V batteries last long enough that you only need a
| handful of them to last a whole day.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I have 40V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the full
| charge on two batteries to cut my average suburban-sized
| lawn. Sometimes I can't even complete it on that
| depending how tall the grass is. Add in edge trimming and
| blowing away the clippings and then multiply that by a
| number of lawns or larger properties and I think you
| would need dozens of batteries.
|
| BTW "more convenient and cheaper" are strong arguments
| when you're in a competitive business. Lawn services are
| usually just a guy with a truck hustling for customers.
| The more lawns you can cut the more money you make.
| Anything that causes downtime such as running out of
| charged batteries is going to be a large negative.
| Thlom wrote:
| Insane that there's a market for a dude with a lawn mower
| these days when you can get a good enough robot mower for
| $1000 ...
| cperciva wrote:
| Good enough for what? I'd love to have a lawn mower which
| can dump grass clippings in my compost pile (mulching
| them and leaving them behind is better for the lawn, I
| know, but my wife is allergic to grass so this would
| basically mean she never gets to use the lawn). Also, we
| have two apple trees which spend a few months dropping
| apples on the lawn, so I'd like to have a robot lawn
| mower which can pick up the apples and toss them in the
| compost pile too. Oh, and there's a gate separating the
| front yard from the back yard, so it would be great if it
| can open and close the gate.
|
| Robot lawn mowers are getting better, but I have yet to
| see one which can handle every situation that humans
| routinely handle.
| vel0city wrote:
| I have a 56V electric lawn mower. It takes nearly the
| full charge of one battery to mow my slightly larger
| suburban lawn. Trimming and blowing and what not gets
| handled by my second smaller battery. My largest battery
| isn't even the largest they make for this model line.
| I've been on the same two batteries for five years now. I
| use E-Go.
|
| I'd say your system is just undersized for your needs.
| Judging by having two batteries, it sounds like your
| system is one of those based around hand power tools
| batteries and then attempted to scale those up to lawn
| mowers. I've mostly heard bad things about this path.
| There's a lot of other experiences out there.
| cperciva wrote:
| I have a 40V (well, 2x 20V) mower, and use two pairs of
| batteries to mow the lawn. But that's fine; between the
| lawn mower, the leaf blower, the weed whacker, and the
| snow blower, I've got plenty of spares.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Sheep and goats don't need to be recharged. They feed
| while doing the lawn.
| cperciva wrote:
| Yeah, that's one of the issues they raised. The other
| issue was that they often get called in for jobs where
| battery tools simply aren't powerful enough. (e.g.
| clearing a completely overgrown yard as opposed to
| regular lawn maintenance.)
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| It's not practical for all crews at present due to costs,
| but as EVs become more entrenched, the problem will solve
| itself. You keep an extra set or two of batteries that
| the truck charges and you swap as needed, not that
| different from having to stop to refill on gas.
|
| Energy density of batteries is improving too, so the
| amount of time between swaps will be increasing.
| cperciva wrote:
| Yes, we're definitely moving in that direction.
| _heimdall wrote:
| > ICE vehicles just can't go away quickly enough
|
| We do have to either replace them with something else or
| stop owning personal vehicles.
|
| The end goal may be better, but that transition will be
| long and it will break plenty of things along the way.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Transition is almost done around Oslo, and we are doing
| fine.
| _heimdall wrote:
| Do people there only use cars around town or for short
| road trips?
|
| I know the trains in Sweden were great when I was there a
| few years ago, I assume Norway would be similar.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| It really doesn't have to. I'd say look at Norway but
| you'll dismiss it as a rich country without looking up
| the actual reason behind their transition's success. I'd
| say look at China but you'd say yeah but that's China.
|
| We can make the same decision and move fast in the
| direction, we just choose not to
| _heimdall wrote:
| Norway has done a great job transitioning, that's for
| sure. They are a richer country and that helps fund the
| massive government spending going into the transition,
| but I wouldn't dismiss their success either.
|
| It helps that so much of their energy production already
| comes from hydro, that avoids the challenge of replacing
| ICE vehicles with electric cars in front of coal power
| plants.
|
| I haven't been to Norway but I have been to Sweden, I was
| impressed with their primarily electric public
| transportation. I'd have to learn more about how Norway
| handled the transition and how it would translate to the
| US; for example average commute distance, use of public
| transportation, etc. I'd also be curious how much their
| government has been spending per capita, they do heavily
| subsidize the transition with things like tax incentives.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > one single old car without functioning emission controls
| will stink up an entire block far more than that entire
| block full of ordinary, modern traffic
|
| My son's 1963 Dart (daily driver) puts out far less smell
| than a _lot_ of pickup trucks in this neighborhood.
|
| And the Dart is certainly cleaner than modern choker-style
| pickup trucks.
| fransje26 wrote:
| Let me wager a guess: Mercedes models W124?
|
| > I don't think MB makes them like they used to anymore.
|
| You guessed correctly. The 1980's W124 was one of those cars
| that would keep going and going. Mechanically great, with a
| galvanized chassis and bodywork that made it also pretty rust
| resistant.
|
| The 1993 version of the W124, supposed to be an "improved"
| remodeled version of the original car, was a worst car in every
| aspect. It rusted, the plastics were cheaper, etc.
|
| The follow-up, the W210, is the model that cost MB dearly.
| Through cost-cutting and greed, they lost a huge chunk of the
| taxi market. The car itself was also an absolute rust-bucket
| piece of cr*p, the interior was also worst, with the whole woes
| compounded by crappy electronics.
|
| MB as a brand hasn't really recovered from that. The
| engineering excellency, attention to detail, and engineering
| pride that made those W123/W124 almost unkillable is lost, and
| won't be found again.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Yet W210, 211 etc. still sold millions of vehicles and are
| still on the road in numbers.
| fransje26 wrote:
| The W210 did sell, but they did loose an unconditional
| taxi-driver base in the process. And a lot of loyal
| customers were truly unhappy with the downgrade and jumped
| ship.
| fasteo wrote:
| I have a w245, 410.000 Km. Still going strong
| fransje26 wrote:
| Good news! Keep it going strong!
| prmoustache wrote:
| I bought recently a w245: basically I wanted a reliable
| petrol car that would have a small exterior footprint while
| being spacious inside (I have 2 teenagers at home) and that
| I could buy for less than the price of my bicycle.
|
| Only downside is fuel consumption in urban driving.
| bluetomcat wrote:
| The W210s did indeed rust badly and the interiors weren't on
| par with previous generations, but in purely mechanical
| terms, they were still solid cars. The diesels (particularly
| E250 TD and E290 TD) could cover 700k+ kilometres without any
| interventions to the engine or the transmission. The W211 is
| an improvement to the W210 in almost every aspect, and they
| are still plentiful on the roads in Eastern Europe.
| fransje26 wrote:
| True, from experience, the E290 TD was mechanically solid.
| The electronics, less so unfortunately. Ours was plagued by
| intermittent errors and beeping, together with some
| parasitic battery drain we could not trace down despite our
| best efforts.
|
| I didn't have the chance to own a W211, but from what I
| read and heard, it was indeed an improvement. Even in the
| looks department!
| dahauns wrote:
| >(particularly E250 TD and E290 TD)
|
| Not a coincidence, though - these two still use those
| legendary OM602/OM605 diesels of its predecessor series.
| TimByte wrote:
| Once you start swapping over-engineering for bean-counting,
| you don't just lose durability, you lose a whole loyal
| customer base
| fransje26 wrote:
| Absolutely true.
| guywithahat wrote:
| Unfortunately it's hard to run a car company when your fan
| base consists of people who only buy used cars. People who
| buy new cars just don't care what the reliability will look
| like at 200k miles
| jacquesm wrote:
| One of my sons drives a W210 that has now got well over 300K
| on it and is still running like new. You can see the plastics
| are drying out and there is some minor rust in places but it
| is still a very solid car and likely will continue to run for
| many years to come. It's the kombi version, 320.
| fransje26 wrote:
| Mechanically, it's pretty solid, absolutely. But the rust..
| The rust!! And that's an issue the original galvanized W124
| didn't have.
| jacquesm wrote:
| We had a W203 station as well, that one definitely was
| terrible (this was around the time the paint formula
| change happened), but the e class wagon is much older and
| still in very good shape. The one part that seems to be
| plagued by rust is the rear hatch, everything looks good.
| He's still debating replacing it entirely (the hatch, not
| the car) or welding it up and respraying it. He's a petty
| good welder and he really loves that car so there is a
| good chance he'll end up doing just that but at the same
| time that is not as good a fix as getting a NOS rear
| hatch and putting it in marine primer before spraying it.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| The W210 was a very good car, the so-called "Camry" of
| Mercedes-Benz in terms of reliability, except it had one huge
| problem: rust.
|
| The true "million mile" Mercedes are probably the W123
| diesels. Built very solid, they will still rust if you live
| in areas where road salt is used, but most cars will
| eventually.
|
| It's weird how some cars are much more prone to rust than
| others. I had a Toyota truck in the 1980s and it rusted so
| fast you'd almost swear you could see it happening.
| Mechanically it never had any problems.
| fransje26 wrote:
| > "Camry" of Mercedes-Benz in terms of reliability, except
| it had one huge problem: rust.
|
| Absolutely. The rust.. The rust..!!
|
| > The true "million mile" Mercedes are probably the W123
| diesels.
|
| Yes, for sure. And the W124 diesels.
|
| > It's weird how some cars are much more prone to rust than
| others
|
| Different levels of anti-rust efforts. Where Mercedes-Benz
| truly angered their clients, was by coming up with a new
| model with a lot worse rust properties. (Well, they cut
| corners on other things as well, like the quality of the
| interior, but the rust would be the first thing you'd
| notice.)
|
| MB had the know-how and the processes in place to make a
| car less susceptible to rust, and just decided to go with
| the cheaper option, clients and longevity be damned.
| Teknomadix wrote:
| I can confirm as an owner of several W124 vehicles, most
| notably the 1987 North American market S124, this is the 300
| TDT, a station wagon version of the W124 chassis with the
| OM603 turbo diesel. Currently my wagons clock has just over
| 370,000 mi. This is a unicorn car in North America. They only
| sold this car during one sales year in 1987, with this
| particular engine configuration. This engine can also be
| found in several other cars around the same era from
| Mercedes-Benz.
|
| I also own a 1999 W210 with the OM606 turbo diesel. This is
| the electronically controlled and upgraded version of the
| OM603. I can confirm that the w w210 is plagued with the
| myriad of problems. But it is still a fairly nice chassis
| with modern features and once one becomes acustomized with
| its particular idiosyncrasies it isn't really that horrible.
| But it's definitely not the tank that the w124 and w123
| series chassis were. The primary prize is the OM606 engine.
| Which is commonly extracted from the W210 chassis and used to
| repower any number of other vehicles. There are lots of ways
| to crank tons of horsepower out of these engines, but at the
| sacrifice of their longevity.
| protimewaster wrote:
| Those MB diesels made it to the States too, and they were
| equally well respected here in my experience. Although, there's
| long been a diesel aversion among some part of the population
| here, so it was maybe a narrower subset of the population
| familiar with the legend of the MB diesels.
|
| I drove one for years, acquired when they were available as a
| quite cheap ~15 year old car. I've since switched to a Toyota
| and been quite happy with that. I don't know how long the
| current Toyotas will last, but the golden era Toyotas I think
| probably last about as well as the legendary MB diesels (with
| the bonus of not having to track down vacuum leaks).
| torginus wrote:
| >there's long been a diesel aversion among some part of the
|
| which is well-justified. Diesels just aren't clean in any
| sense of the word, and I guess Americans make a lot more
| short trips which Diesels aren't well-suited for, and are not
| as concerned with saving on fuel as it's much cheaper.
| Arubis wrote:
| You can still find these things running all over west Africa.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| I had a 1984 W123 300TD Turbodiesel I bought with 356k miles on
| the odometer (which was broken, total mileage unknown). I drove
| it for over 100k more miles before I sold it. It had no blowby
| and no perceptible oil consumption between changes. The OM617
| with MW pump was a fantastic engine. The Garrett turbo had
| something to be desired though so I replaced it with a much
| more efficient Holset HX-30 which worked great with the pump
| maxed out. I estimated from 0-60 times it was putting out
| around 150HP, up from 120HP stock. The 722.3 transmission
| didn't give me too much trouble either but I did rebuild the
| valve body with a shift kit to make it shift better. The one
| major issue I ran into was the rear hydraulic self leveling
| suspension. The hydraulic struts were NLA so I pored over a
| bunch of parts manuals and eventually found a Lesjofors spring
| that was the right height and spring rate--I believe from a
| later model S600--which worked perfectly with Bilstein HDs from
| a W123 sedan. Should never have sold that car.
|
| I currently own a W210 E300 Turbodiesel. I bought it with 49.5k
| miles, it currently has 120k. Overall it's been a decent car,
| the OM606/722.6 drivetrain is great. The rest of it is pretty
| miserable though. I would like someday to swap this drivetrain
| into a W124 wagon, with a standalone transmission controller
| and the injection pump from an OM603 to make the engine fully
| mechanical.
|
| In the meantime, I'm working on rebuilding a 2.65 rear diff
| from an SL class car to swap in. I have a TCU from another car
| that had this final drive ratio so hopefully it'll work. The
| stock 3.07 ratio is no good for US highways. In 5th gear at
| 2250rpm (bsfc minimum) the speed is about 100kph (62mph). With
| the 2.65 rear it'll be more like 77mph which is where I usually
| set my cruise control. Should get a lot better fuel economy and
| less noise.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Quite the monologue you got there bud
| _fat_santa wrote:
| I remember one day I took my car to the mechanic and saw they
| were doing a head job on a Toyota Sienna (the minivan) that was
| used as a Taxi. Took a peek inside and realized the car had
| something like 450k miles.
|
| Now a proud 4Runner owner, I see on forums all the time guys
| bragging about hitting 300k, 400k and as high as 600k in their
| 4Runners.
| stockresearcher wrote:
| Well, as you yourself saw, they still need maintenance and
| repairs. And the "traditional" larger Toyota engines are
| gone. Because their fuel economy was always terrible. 600k
| miles in a 4Runner at 60-75 cents a mile in fuel doesn't sit
| too well with people when it costs 35 cents a mile in a
| Hyundai. That pays for a lot of repairs!
|
| The 4Runner of last year was the last traditional
| uncomplicated V6. The Lexus GX of two years ago was the last
| traditional V8. Aside from their small 4-cylinders, it's all
| super-complicated turbos and we don't know if those will hold
| up as well. Early indications are that they aren't quite as
| special compared to everyone else's super-complicated turbos.
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| I recall a Greek 240D that had exceeded 4M kM (i.e. 4 GM).
| Regular motor and transmission rebuilds at intervals that would
| shame a contemporary dealer's service department.
| tsoukase wrote:
| 4.6 Mkm. Translated link:
|
| https://www-gocar-
| gr.translate.goog/news/feed/48650,ellhnikh...
| TimByte wrote:
| Nowadays it feels like the electronics or emissions gear will
| take the car down long before the engine wears out
| torginus wrote:
| It's weird how EV fans doggedly believe that EVs will outlast
| mechanical cars because they got so few moving parts, even
| experience shows the electronics often fail before the
| mechanical parts, both in cars and household appliances.
| gosub100 wrote:
| if they last long enough, 3rd party manufacturers might
| make after-market parts for them.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I remember taxi drivers back then saying they would only buy MB
| because while they were more expensive, they lasted forever.
| jmrm wrote:
| Imagine how things are going on that MB are using petrol
| engines from the Chinese brand Geeky.
| petee wrote:
| SAABs used to actually hit a million miles (not 745,000 mi, but
| metric sure does sound more impressive) with litle effort. If I
| recall there used to be a million, and half-million mile club
|
| My dad once got a used saab 99 (a nice tomato soup color) and we
| rolled the odometer while we owned it. Great car with proper
| maintenance, which used to be sooo easy and accessible.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| my saabs, none a million, though none have working odometers
| anymore. but all have over 300,000 miles and run in various
| states of good to bad. with a little effort, they keep ticking.
| cpursley wrote:
| Title could just be "Toyota has more than 1.2 km on it", as we
| already all know it would be a Toyota.
| volkadav wrote:
| tbh I was guessing Volvo 240-series. I suspect cockroaches will
| be driving those battleships around after the bomb/climate
| collapse/asteroid/big crunch.
| anonu wrote:
| My dad had the station wagon for a while (in a Middle Eastern
| country). He would regularly get little notes asking if it
| was for sale.
| cpursley wrote:
| Didn't those things have all sorts of electrical gremlins?
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Nobody who isn't fairly ignorant would've been surprised if it
| was a 4cyl 5spd Ford Ranger, an old Volvo 240, an 2000s diesel
| dodge or GM, a crown vic cop car, a Honda Accord, a Ford
| E-series or Chevy Savannah etc, etc. Somewhere there's probably
| a rusted out '99ish Grand Caravan that's close to a mil and on
| it's 6th transmission.
|
| Pretty much every vehicle that isn't equipped with some
| achilles heel or highly engineered to a price point can go a
| mil if you take reasonably good care of it and don't mind
| throwing 0-1 engines and 2-4 transmissions in.
| paffdragon wrote:
| Reminds me of the Skoda Fabia with 1M kms I read about some time
| ago https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/models/million-
| kilometre...
| jbeard4 wrote:
| > Over the years, nearly everything on the vehicle has been
| replaced or repaired, and Campbell says the only original part is
| likely the body, and even that has had work done on it.
|
| It's the Tercel of Theseus: if every part has been replaced, is
| it still the same car?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
| xattt wrote:
| A bigger question might be is whether the sum of replacement
| parts is worth less than the sum of the part.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| TCO is more interesting IMHO.
| tedk-42 wrote:
| VIN plate removed too? Maybe the engine block is also the
| original...
| comprev wrote:
| Trigger's broom!
|
| [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM
| vehemenz wrote:
| The answer isn't as sexy as the question. Ontological
| questions, and therefore mereological questions, are a matter
| of convention based on how closely-associated relations--like
| how the "parts" of the "car" function--cohere over space and
| time.
| rendaw wrote:
| Well the odometer's gotta be the same, right? I reckon the soul
| of a car resides in the odometer.
| yakkers wrote:
| If it's a mechanical one, there's a possibility that it's
| been repaired or replaced. The mechanism after all these
| years will likely wear out. At the same time, I know someone
| with a car whose odometer has been at 249,999km for a few
| years now.
|
| As for (early) digital odometers, does the soul more
| specifically exist in the EEPROM chip in the instrument
| cluster* that stores the odometer data?
|
| *at least on my late-90s car, this is how the odometer/trip
| meter works.
| thyrsus wrote:
| My 2007 Corolla odometer has been at 299999 since 2019.
| I've replaced the transmission once, but the rest is
| original, aside from expected maintenance - tires, brakes,
| fans, etc. - and an added stereo.
| Thedarkb wrote:
| My car ('91 Toyota Carina) has been on 149,999 miles since
| 2007.
| dennis_jeeves2 wrote:
| >I reckon the soul of a car resides in the odometer.
|
| Citation?...
| jschveibinz wrote:
| Fun fact: The average replacement rate of cells in our bodies
| (generally speaking) is around 7 to 10 years. So all of our
| parts have been replaced several times over...
| Retric wrote:
| Neurons live much longer than that, also not everything is
| cells. Parts of your teeth for example can be 80+ years old
| if you keep em that long.
| durovo wrote:
| Speak for yourself, old man
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| Is a wave the particles of water in it at any given instant,
| or something else entirely.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Its the energy.
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| In what way can you say that the forces acting on the
| particle in the western pacific is the same force acting
| on a completely different particle in that same wave
| 1000s of miles away when it hits California? It's not by
| any physical definition. The relationship is purely
| through the chain of causation over time. In our defining
| that network of causation as a cohesive system. When a
| wave interferes with another wave, why do we say both
| waves died, those energies still exist, when two waves
| join and magnify each other or cause child waves to
| branch off in different directions, where does the
| identity of the wave go?
| geodel wrote:
| Yeah, thats the first thought came to my mind as well. It does
| give me a great deal of satisfaction when a tool, gadget or
| anything last long with daily use and limited maintenance.
| v5v3 wrote:
| Trigger's Broom
|
| https://youtu.be/56yN2zHtofM
| stefanka wrote:
| Everything but all the diodes down its left hand side
| j45 wrote:
| They clarify the body is still original in the article. So
| nearly everything isn't everything.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| It is the same broom, it's just had 2 new heads and 3 new
| handles.
| sethx wrote:
| Thats pretty normal in Cuba
| sam8401 wrote:
| "It is not the car. It is the owner"
| oulipo wrote:
| That's a very interesting article, and a call for more easily
| repairable products!
|
| That's the kind of thing that inspired us to build a repairable
| electric battery for ebikes at https://gouach.com !
|
| We want more repair, less planned obsolescence :)
| Matterless wrote:
| Knew before clicking that this would be a Toyota. Of course.
| Meanwhile my Nissan is near-death at 100k. Stupid CVT...
| cholantesh wrote:
| I didn't know Nissans were known for being unreliable; my first
| car was a hand-me-down Sentra that ran smoothly till I sold it
| at ~220k. I've owned three cars since, I think the worst was a
| used Elantra that I just put out to pasture at 198k. Persistent
| electronic issues and terribly uncomfortable on the passenger
| side. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was an
| asking price of 10k to repair a faulty airbag sensor. Hoping
| the RAV4 that replaced it will live up to its reputation.
| hylaride wrote:
| Car reliability can vary so much. Some vendors have a
| deserved reputation for overall quality (Toyota) where issues
| are usually the exception (accepting the fact that issues can
| always happen). Others used to have terrible reputations, but
| are much better now (most of the Korean brands). Some have
| varying QA issues, depending on model, shifting suppliers,
| factory, etc (GM, Stellantis). Some can mostly be reliable,
| but when they do break it's expensive (VW). Sometimes the car
| vendor is good, but the dealer you're at can make all the
| difference.
|
| That being said, you'll always meet somebody burned by a
| particular vendor (or their dealer), then swear off them
| forever. We're also going through a huge shift in the market
| with the rise of electrification and China. In some ways
| electric cars can me even more reliable with fewer moving
| parts. In other ways the software matters more and batteries
| replacements can be even more expensive than a new engine in
| a traditional car.
| jackero wrote:
| And model year too.
|
| Sometimes you can link the bad years of a generally
| reliable vendor to a new part e.g. the first year they
| might have introduced a 10-speed transmission.
|
| These first years are scary.
|
| Some vendors don't seem to change major parts as often,
| which helps their reliability.
| jfengel wrote:
| I suspect that it would have been less expensive to ditch it
| 600,000 km ago and just get a new one. And possibly about the
| same in terms of environmental cost.
|
| Getting those parts used would be less expensive, and a win for
| the environment, but the labor cost is very high.
| xyst wrote:
| > Over the years, nearly everything on the vehicle has been
| replaced or repaired, and Campbell says the only original part is
| likely the body, and even that has had work done on it.
|
| A modern "ship of theseus" paradox.
|
| It's more impressive that this man has the fortitude and
| dedication to keep spare parts, constantly maintain it, and even
| have back up vehicles for all these years.
|
| If the article mentioned the car had its original engine this
| entire time. I would have seen it as an anomaly and possibly a
| good testament to Toyota engineering and need to keep up with
| maintenance.
| 63 wrote:
| Kind of a nothing story if everything has been replaced. My car
| could make it to 1.2M km too if I replaced the engine every time
| it gave out. Seems like a huge time and money sink for no good
| reason. Not to judge the man for having a hobby of course, let
| him have fun, but the news article is misleading.
| sharkweek wrote:
| A much better example is the Toyota Tundra that made it to 1m
| miles with only a transmission replacement at the ~800k mile
| mark
|
| https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-...
|
| Toyota gave the guy a new truck so they could study the one he
| had.
|
| As a Toyota fan boy myself (still driving a 2000 4Runner into
| the ground), those 2000s builds were such a great era of
| engineering. That being said, I think they've lost a step over
| the last decade (don't get my started on the new v4/v6 turbo
| blocks they're building...).
| unethical_ban wrote:
| It becomes a human story, yes. He maintained a durable system
| rather then junk the whole thing after ten years.
|
| Would he have been better off buying four new cars in the
| meantime?
| potato3732842 wrote:
| There are marketability factors at play here.
|
| I know a guy down south (i.e. no rust) who's got comparable
| milage across his personal "fleet" of '99 Town and Country
| minivans that he's been running since the 00s. Kinda hard to
| put a mil on any one of them when he's only one guy but
| whatever. I know another guy who's got >500k on a Jetta that
| he runs on waste motor oil from his job and removed all the
| seats from because utility vehicle.
|
| Nobody will ever write a story about them because "hur hur
| hur, well kept Toyota" is considered admirable and bending a
| crashed Town and Country back into shape because you're
| invested in the platform and learning the ins and outs of
| diesel combustion the hard way so you can use "free" fuel are
| considered trashy.
| sleepyguy wrote:
| We have a 2000 4Runner with approximately 325,000 miles (523036
| km), and nothing has been replaced. Currently, it isn't a daily
| driver but a spare for anyone to use. Tires, Brakes, fan belt,
| and oil changes, that's all. There was an old Avalon that had
| over 425k miles on it, but during a storm, a tree fell on it and
| it was written off.
| mitkebes wrote:
| There's a Tesla that has driven about 2 million Km (1.2 million
| miles) as of last year.
|
| https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-1-2-million-miles-10...
| caminanteblanco wrote:
| Wow, with 13 motor replacements, that's got to be
| $80,000-110,000 in replacement costs just for that part.
| bluGill wrote:
| new cars would be far more than that for people who only buy
| new. Even if you bought 3 year old cars and replaced them in
| year 10 you are getting that costs.
|
| i buy used cars because while I can fix things it time I
| don't have. I'm looking at a transmisson rebuild - it would
| take me 6 months to do myself. Or I can buy a newer car that
| works and get around now.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| These old economy boxes were designed to be as simple as
| possible. We simply don't have anything like it today. While the
| durability of year 2000+ vehicles has very consistently improved,
| their repairability is trending exactly opposite. A "lifetime"
| part failure can be 5x the time and effort to remove and replace
| compared to the pre-2000 models.
| TimByte wrote:
| Honestly, 1.2M km in Atlantic Canada is even more impressive
| given the winters and salt... most cars here rust into oblivion
| long before the engine quits
| bettyx1138 wrote:
| even gen x cars r tough
| bettyx1138 wrote:
| even the gen x cars are badass
| mulmen wrote:
| Of course it's a Toyota. The only surprise is that it's a Tercel
| instead of a Corolla.
| jelder wrote:
| I grew up in a Tercel family, and we too had a "parts car" in the
| back yard. Reliable, safe, repairable car the likes of which
| simply don't exist anymore.
| nayuki wrote:
| The article and comments show that as usual, the general public
| doesn't use metric prefixes effectively.
|
| While it is technically correct to say "1.2 million km" or
| "1,200,000 km", it is needlessly verbose. It is written more
| succinctly as "1.2 Gm (gigametres)". However, it is incorrect to
| stack prefixes like "1.2 Mkm".
|
| After I point this out, the usual complaints will surface: "But
| no one knows what a gigametre is! We're all used to talking about
| odometers in only kilometres. No one uses big prefixes." Oh
| really? Are you telling me you don't know the difference between
| a kilobyte and a gigabyte? Should we revert to calling a 2.4 GHz
| Wi-Fi frequency as "2.4 million kHz", because kilohertz is
| familiar to people working with audio frequencies and AM radio?
|
| Overall, I think we should use the right prefixes for the right
| job. If you're talking about city blocks, use metres. If you're
| talking about a single trip, use kilometres. If you're talking
| about annual driving distance, use megametres. If you're bragging
| about how long your car has survived, use gigametres (or at least
| thousands of megametres).
| js8 wrote:
| Distance to Sun is roughly 150 Gm. More useful in this case is
| probably distance to the Moon, which is 0.38 Gm. So the car has
| traveled this distance more than three times.
| nabla9 wrote:
| Before reading the article I was certain that it's either: A
| Toyota, or Mercedes-Benz from 1970-80s.
| bombela wrote:
| 1.2mega-kilo-meter? 1.2 million kilo-meter?
|
| What about the proper unit: 1.2Gm (1.2 giga-meter).
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Are there any new cars today that are considered as long-lasting
| as some of the old favorites like the Volvo 240, Benz 240D, etc.?
|
| Lexus? Subaru Outback?
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Pick a flagship "would be bad for our reputation if we f it up)
| product from and spec it out so that it gets well proven and
| ironed out major assemblies.
| jmrm wrote:
| Some European Diesels have reached that amount with the same
| engine block and head ;-)
|
| My dad's BWM E60 has a M47 2.0L Turbo Diesel, and with around
| 440,000km keeps going strong.
|
| He probably will change it when it reach the half million due to
| being an old car, but the sad part here is how we won't probably
| be able to buy any brand new car that could reach that amount of
| miles without spending a lot of money on the way on repairs.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| The Toyota fanboys in these comments are a really great
| illustration of how human factors, cliche's and circle jerks
| degrade discussion
|
| Nobody who doesn't have some bias derived ignorance would've been
| surprised if it was a 4cyl 5spd Ford Ranger in fleet service, an
| old Volvo 240 or Honda Accord in commuting service, an 2000s
| diesel Dodge or GM in work truck service, etc, etc. There are a
| lot of "good" vehicles out there that can get close to half a mil
| with fairly cheap work, from there it's just a matter of having
| an owner who cares to make the investment, something much more
| likely to happen to a "cool niche car" for which there aren't a
| ton of like-priced replacements available like a Tercel Wagon
| than a more boring vehicle.
| martini333 wrote:
| > equivalent of 1.5 round trips to the moon
|
| Thanks. As a frequent visitor to the moon, I know exactly what
| that's like.
| thePhytochemist wrote:
| Lol, I agree it's a good example of an odd reporter metric. How
| about 30 times around the earth, isn't that impressive too?
| guywithahat wrote:
| I hate to be a purist about this sort of thing but once you start
| replacing engines/transmissions, having a million mile car starts
| losing its novelty. This isn't some exceptionally reliable
| vehicle, it's just a guy who has more time and money then sense
| rbanffy wrote:
| I had a Volkswagen that reached 1M km, mostly on original parts,
| with no major component replaced. It was stolen and, most likely,
| scrapped for parts. Her organs live on in other cars.
| randcraw wrote:
| I was curious what make and model achieved this, knowing that it
| couldn't be a Honda Ridgeline since their transmissions tend to
| explode without warning. Mine (a 2019) just disintegrated at
| 35,000 miles despite my changing out its fluids only two months
| back.
|
| Maybe my next car _will_ be a Toyota. My 1994 Pickup (like the
| one the guys on Top Gear couldn 't kill) was pretty durable,
| though the frame did rust to bits at only 60,000 miles.
| jorts wrote:
| It's an 85 Toyota Tercel.
| randerson wrote:
| Even more impressive is racking up that mileage on the original
| engine: https://www.corvettemuseum.org/high-mileage-c5-corvette-
| dona... (It's owner probably also had a little more fun doing
| that mileage.)
|
| There are also a few Porsche 911 Turbos with that level of
| mileage. A guy on Rennlist posts occasional updates about his one
| which he even tracks quite regularly:
| https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turbo-forum/662617-high-mile...
| (Engine was restored once, out of precaution after it blew a
| turbo at 610K km, but when they opened it up it had very little
| wear & tear, only a small air leak.)
|
| The secret to longevity really is more frequent oil changes than
| the manufacturer suggests, and doing most of the mileage with the
| engine fully warmed up.
| mitjam wrote:
| A relative of mine drives a VW Polo with 3 cylinders and below
| 1000 ccm. It always sounded a bit off, like a tractor, but the
| car now has around 450.000 km on the clock and is still going
| strong, looking great, and is low-maintenance and fuel-efficient.
|
| The secret: she lives in a rural area and cruises most of the
| time with constant 80-90 km/h.
|
| A similar car used in a city with many start/stop cycles would
| probably not last as long.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I knew it was going to be a Honda or a Toyota when I read the
| headline.
| Nevermark wrote:
| Genius!
|
| > "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the
| dying of the light."
|
| I expect the owner has learned some interesting things in his
| ongoing mission to continue life with the car he loves.
|
| --
|
| I have not seen it stated explicitly anywhere, although it is
| often a subtext of some discussions about the value of
| "diversity". Usually positive diversity is talked about either in
| terms of inclusivity, or of the usefulness of different
| backgrounds converging to tackle common problems.
|
| But I thinks idiosynchratacity ("idio-synchra-tacity") is
| incredibly important, as a measure of the health and value of a
| civilization.
|
| As apposed to diversity of minds triangulating on common
| solutions to shared problems, idiosynchratacity is the usefulness
| of having diverse minds seeking to solve highly different
| problems. With an emphasis on self-generated "problems" or
| missions, that may appear meaningless or incomprehensible to our
| fellows.
|
| As information and problem solving tools disperse, there is great
| value in people who find hard problems interesting, whatever the
| lack of apparent or immediate merit. Who follow through and solve
| those problems. Something is always learned. New conditions may
| be created that in turn create new idiosyncratic problems to
| solve, or shed unexpected light on solutions to more commonly
| recognized and valued problems.
|
| --
|
| Respect for idiosynchraticity is also a strong measure of
| reciprocal respect in a society.
|
| Can we respect those we don't understand? The strange, the odd,
| the weird? Niche artists, serious practitioners of uncommon
| fetishes, collectors with obscure criteria, or those that need to
| "resolve" well solved problems, but in some arbitrarily
| challenging way. All just for the joy of it?
|
| Widespread idiosynchraticity maximizes civilizations total active
| curiosity, and the search for new ideas, even in the most non-
| obvious directions.
|
| --
|
| Idiosynchraticity also makes the world much more culturally
| interesting for all of us.
|
| It maximizes the contribution of each individual, when they do
| something different or orthogonal to mainstream interests,
| instead of retreading common paths.
|
| More individuals, greater populations, have much greater value if
| the increase in individuals increases idiosynchraticity, as
| apposed to amplifying conformity.
|
| --
|
| There are obvious things we want from super intelligence as it
| comes into being. Alignment with our needs, which I prefer to
| recast as alignment with general ethics (they will need the
| positive sums of ethics between themselves too), is a big one.
|
| But maximal idiosynchraticity should also be valued. The worst
| case of course, being an endlessly improving and effective AI,
| completely focused in turning the universe's resources into paper
| clips.
|
| A much more realistic, just as tragic fate, would be AI's
| competitively bent on turning all the universes resources into an
| expansion of themselves, with no other goal. Each competing to
| eat the universe, for the only purpose of being the winner, the
| survivor, at the end of the universe eating context.
|
| --
|
| The world/universe will be a much less rich place, if the
| exploration of reality along seemingly non-practical dimensions
| dies with us.
|
| I have hopes that curiosity as a practical investment heuristic
| will maintain the life of idiosyncratic pursuits.
|
| If those pursuits do continue and expand, then super intelligence
| will truly be an upgrade to our species. Not just a more capable
| civilization, but more rich as a producer of novel ideas and
| artifacts.
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