[HN Gopher] Overengineering my homelab so I don't pay cloud prov...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Overengineering my homelab so I don't pay cloud providers
        
       Author : JNRowe
       Score  : 176 points
       Date   : 2025-08-04 23:14 UTC (3 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (ergaster.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (ergaster.org)
        
       | treve wrote:
       | If anyone is looking to get started with a homelab at a good
       | price, I can highly recommend checking ebay for a Dell Wyse 5070.
       | They flooded the market for $50 and are likely powerful enough
       | for many needs. They have a M.2 slot that support SATA. The
       | 'extended' version also has space for a small pcie card and has a
       | parallel and 2 serial ports for a blast to the past.
        
         | senectus1 wrote:
         | curious to know what you would use this for?
        
           | denkmoon wrote:
           | local dns, static site hosting, local apt cache, various
           | other network services (unifi controller if you've got those
           | APs for example), remote/headless dev machine (maybe not for
           | kernel or bigcorp java development), or whatever else you
           | want. mail if you want. Anything :)
           | 
           | Those little thin clients aren't gonna be fast doing "big"
           | things, but serving up a few dns packets or whatever to your
           | local network is easy work and pretty useful.
        
           | treve wrote:
           | I use it for media hosting. Backups (connected USB disks),
           | home assistant, syncthing
        
           | rwyinuse wrote:
           | Even these low-power CPU's are surprisingly capable. As an
           | example of more fancy thing, one could slap in some external
           | storage, install Jellyfin, and run their own local streaming
           | service off such a machine. The CPU is modern enough for
           | efficient hardware transcoding of a stream.
        
         | pandemic_region wrote:
         | What if power consumption is taken into account? Are there any
         | devices in that category that are ok to leave on 24/7 ?
        
           | ninjin wrote:
           | Quick search online tells me ~5W for the Dell Wyse 5070,
           | which does not sound unrealistic as I have similar boxes that
           | draw ~10W. So, 32 to 62kWh per year and then we have ~USD 6.5
           | to 13 per year assuming 20 cents per kWh which another online
           | search told me was reasonably realistic for the US.
        
             | rwyinuse wrote:
             | Yea, I own Wyse 5070 extended, and measured around 5W from
             | the wall when nothing attached to the PCIE slot.
        
             | fho wrote:
             | Tangent, but it's always crazy to hear what other countries
             | pay per kWh compared to the 0.4EUR/kWh in Germany.
        
               | MrDresden wrote:
               | And in Iceland the average is around 0.07EUR/kWh.
        
               | bombela wrote:
               | Bay area, California: $0.61 base, $0.80 from 16:00 to
               | 21:00.
        
               | jurip wrote:
               | Yeah, and Germany is expensive compared to the Nordics.
               | 6.35 c/kWh right now in Finland, 2.54 c/kWh average over
               | the last 30 days.
               | 
               | (clarification: that's euro cent, so 0.0635EUR etc)
        
               | novok wrote:
               | Don't worry, there are some places in the USA that are
               | even worse than that, like san diego, san francisco and
               | hawaii
        
           | vladvasiliu wrote:
           | I have a somewhat bigger machine that hosts my homelab, an HP
           | 800 G2 SFF. It takes "normal" components, so can ben
           | modified. The only custom thing is the PSU, but the standard
           | one is good enough for my needs. Bonus points for not
           | requiring an external power adaptor.
           | 
           | It has an i5-6500, 32 GB RAM (16 + 2x8 DIMMs), 2 SATA SSDs
           | and a 2x10Gb Connect-X3. It runs 24/7 hosting OpnSense and
           | HomeAssistant on top of KVM (Arch Linux Hardened - didn't do
           | anything specific to lower the power draw). Sometimes other
           | stuff, but not right now.
           | 
           | I haven't measured it with this specific nic, but before it
           | had a 4x1Gb i350. With all ports up, all VMs running but not
           | doing much, some power meter I got off Amazon said it pulled
           | a little over 14W. The peak was around 40 when booting up.
           | 
           | Electricity costs 0.22 EUR/kWh here. The machine itself cost
           | me 0 (they were going to throw it out at work), 35 for the
           | nic and maybe 50 for the RAM. It would take multiple years to
           | break even by buying one of these small machines. My plan is
           | to wait out until they start having 10 Gb nics and this
           | machine won't be able to keep up anymore.
        
         | yamapikarya wrote:
         | i bought dell wyse 5070 for building talos cluster using
         | proxmox. pretty great and you can upgrade ram to 32gb
        
           | dardeaup wrote:
           | The published technical specs indicate that the maximum RAM
           | is 16gb (2x 8gb).
           | 
           | https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/pl-
           | pl/products/thin-c...
           | 
           | Have you tried it with 32gb? If so, was this 2x 16gb or 1x
           | 32gb?
        
             | Maxious wrote:
             | I had to do a bios upgrade using Windows but a single 32gb
             | Corsair "DDR4 SODIMM for 11th Generation Intel Core
             | Processors" worked
        
             | zrail wrote:
             | I have run 2x 16GB in my 5070s with the stock bios.
        
         | rwyinuse wrote:
         | For a bit more money, Optiplex Micro / Lenovo Tiny / HP Mini
         | series with at least 8th gen i5 are a good option too. Can be
         | found from Ebay for about 70 - 120 USD, much more powerful than
         | Wyse 5070 while still quite power efficient (about 10W idle, as
         | opposed to 5W of Wyse). Usually they come with one NVME, one
         | SATA 2.5" slot, some premium models even with PCIE.
        
           | ninjin wrote:
           | All good options, just noting that based on some searches I
           | made they all seem to lack serial ports compared to the Wyse
           | if that is something you care about (I personally do). There
           | could be variants out there though with serial ports and if
           | would be happy to hear about them and even more happy if
           | there are fanless variants/alternatives for those of us with
           | very limited space at home and a need to avoid noise.
        
             | vladvasiliu wrote:
             | I don't know about fanless, especially with an i5 as
             | opposed to n-something.
             | 
             | But not all those minis are the same. G4 (intel 8th gen)
             | and G5 (intel 9th gen) HPs are horrendous. The fan makes an
             | extremely aggravating noise, and I haven't found a way to
             | fix it. Bonus points for both the fan and heatsink having
             | custom mounts, so even if you wanted to have an ugly but
             | quiet machine by slapping a standard cooler, you couldn't.
             | 
             | G6 versions (intel 10th gen) seem to have fixed this, and
             | they're mostly inaudible on a desk, unless you're compiling
             | something for half an hour.
        
             | vitaflo wrote:
             | My Lenovo m910q Tiny has serial ports. Two of them in fact.
             | Cost me $50 on eBay.
        
         | finnjohnsen2 wrote:
         | I would say raspberry pi 5. cheap, small and widely used so
         | much of the stuff is already done many times
        
           | cenamus wrote:
           | Is it better than a n100 setup from China? When you factor in
           | the storage, power supply, case, (fan), and so on?
        
             | addandsubtract wrote:
             | No. The main pain point with RPi's is that they're SD card
             | based - which are slow and prone to failure. Configuring an
             | SSD to be used as the main storage has also been a pain in
             | the past (not sure if that's changed recently).
             | 
             | With an n100, you get a better, more upgradable system for
             | around the same price and same power usage. On top, you
             | will also have an x64 system that isn't limited to some ARM
             | quirks. I made the switch n100's over a year ago and have
             | had no issues with them so far.
        
           | cookiengineer wrote:
           | Looking at Raspberry Pi prices inside EU, I can get 8 core
           | laptops for a cheaper price, with display, dGPU et al.
           | 
           | No idea what happened, but Raspberry Pis are super expensive
           | for the last couple years, which is why I decided to just go
           | with used Intel NUCs instead. They cost around 80-150EUR and
           | they use more electricity but they are a quite good bang for
           | the buck, and some variants also have 3x HDMI or Gbit/s
           | ethernet or m2 slots you can use to have a SATA RAID in them.
        
             | tracker1 wrote:
             | Same.. switched over during the pandemic when full on
             | N95/100 systems were cheaper than just the RPi board by
             | itself. More compute/ram, faster storage, included case and
             | power, fewer headaches.
        
         | wraptile wrote:
         | Another tip: second hand gaming PCs! They can be incredibly
         | cheap and powerful due to upgrade cycles just make sure to put
         | a raid 1 on it as second hand gamer gear might be less
         | reliable.
        
           | novok wrote:
           | the power usage is usually horrible, which is why most don't
           | want it
        
         | addandsubtract wrote:
         | Another cheap option are Fujitsu Futro's. They're meant to be
         | thin server clients meant to operate larger server racks (I
         | guess?). Anyway, they come with 4-8GB RAM, an SSD (most people
         | upgrade them), and even have a PCI-e slot (depending on the
         | model) to use with a 2.5 or 10 Gbit ethernet card, for example.
         | Around $50 on ebay.
        
         | bobcostas55 wrote:
         | I built mine around an N150 board off of aliexpress. 6 SATA
         | slots, 4x2.5G ethernet, 2x m.2 slots. Find a cheap second-hand
         | case, a bit of RAM and you're ready to go. It's got hardware
         | transcoding, handles 4K without breaking a sweat. And it
         | consumes 6W!
        
           | tracker1 wrote:
           | I'm more inclined to go with N305/N355 myself for the extra
           | compute (more images/containers). But they're a pretty decent
           | option. I setup a "forbidden router" at a friend's using one.
           | Been working great for his home use... proxmox, opnsense for
           | routing, wireguard, pihole, docker-vm running his AP control
           | software, and a trunas scale VM serving a USB hard drive for
           | home backups.
           | 
           | At home, I'm using a 5900H based mini-pc I bought a few years
           | ago and a synology nas.
        
       | czhu12 wrote:
       | This was exactly a use case I had in mind when building
       | https://canine.sh -- also uses k3s as a provider, and provides a
       | Heroku-like devex.
       | 
       | How to actually reliably expose a homelab to the broader internet
       | is a little tricky, cloudflare tunnels mostly does the trick but
       | can only expose one port at a time, so the set up is somewhat
       | annoying
        
         | BLKNSLVR wrote:
         | I've got basically raw internet coming in to my OPNSense
         | device, although I had to request certain ports to be removed
         | from the ISP's by-default-blocked policy, since I host a mail
         | server - but the ISP is fine with this, they have a form for
         | it, super easy.
         | 
         | Some family members are behind CGNAT, and I'm not sure if their
         | ISP has the option to move out from behind that, but since they
         | don't self-host it's probably slightly more secure from outside
         | probes. We're still able to privately share communications via
         | my VPN hub to which they connect, which allows me to remotely
         | troubleshoot minor issues.
         | 
         | I haven't looked into cloudflare tunnels, but haven't felt the
         | need.
        
         | vladvasiliu wrote:
         | What do you mean by "one port at a time"?
         | 
         | I run cloudflared on one machine, and it proxies one subdomain
         | to one port, and another to a unix socket (could have been a
         | second port, no pb).
        
       | timc3 wrote:
       | The encryption is interesting but I wouldn't call this over
       | engineered at all, in fact it's rather basic compared to a lot of
       | homelabs I see people building particularly where people are
       | doing K8s or similar over multiple machines.
       | 
       | Also Proxmox was called out as the only choice when that is very
       | much not the case. It is a good choice for sure, but there are
       | others.
        
       | BLKNSLVR wrote:
       | > _But my server could be shut down because of a power outage or
       | another reason. I might be at work or even on holidays when it
       | happens, and even wireguard can't solve this._
       | 
       | A 'power outage' incident doesn't seem to have been mitigated. My
       | homelab has had evolving mitigations: I cut a hole in the side of
       | a small UPS so I could connect it to a larger (car) battery for
       | longer uptime, which got replaced by a dedicated
       | inverter/charger/transfer-switch attached to a big-ass AGM
       | caravan battery (which on a couple of occasions powered through
       | two-to-three hour power outages), and has now been replaced with
       | these recent LiFePo4 battery power station thingies.
       | 
       | Of course, it's only a homelab, there's nothing critically
       | important that I'm hosting, but that's not the dang point, I want
       | to beat most of "the things", and I don't like having to check
       | that everything has rebooted properly after a minor power
       | fluctuation (I have a few things that mount remote file stores
       | and these mounts usually fail upon boot due to the speed at which
       | certain devices boot up - and I've decided not to solve that
       | yet).
        
         | qwertox wrote:
         | > I cut a hole in the side of a small UPS so I could connect it
         | to a larger (car) battery for longer uptime
         | 
         | Can you share more about this? I have a APC Back UPS PRO USV
         | 1500VA (BR1500G-GR) and it would be nice to know if this is
         | possible with that one as well.
        
           | BLKNSLVR wrote:
           | That UPS eventually died, and I'm not sure if it was because
           | it was hooked up to a larger battery than it was designed
           | for, but it's still only 12 volts so I don't think the
           | electronics would notice. What they may notice is extended
           | run-time in the event of a power failure.
           | 
           | It was a crude mod. Take the cover off and remove the
           | existing little security alarm battery, use tin snips to cut
           | a hole in the side of the metal UPS cover (this was
           | challenging, it was relatively thick metal, I'd recommend
           | using an angle grinder in an appropriately safe environment
           | far away from the internals of the UPS), and feed the battery
           | cables out through the hole. I probably got some additional
           | cables with appropriately sized terminations to effectively
           | extend the short existing ones (since they were only designed
           | to be used within the device). And then connect it up to a
           | car battery.
           | 
           | Cover any exposed metal on the connectors with that shrink
           | rubber tubing or electrical tape. Be very careful with
           | exposed metal around it anywhere, especially touching the RED
           | POSITIVE pole of the battery. Get a battery box - I got one
           | for the big-ass AGM battery.
           | 
           | Test it out on a laptop that's had it's battery removed or
           | disconnected that, just in case, you don't care too much
           | about losing.
           | 
           | Get a battery charger that can revive a flat battery, and do
           | a full refresh/renew charge on the car battery once a year or
           | after it's had to push through a power outage that may have
           | used more than a few percent of its capacity.
           | 
           | Personally, I think it's safer a less hassle to go for a
           | LiFePo4 (LFP) Power Station style device that has UPS
           | capabilities. LFP batteries have 3,000-ish cycle lifetimes,
           | which could be nearly ten years with daily use.
        
           | throaway920181 wrote:
           | This really doesn't seem like something one would want to
           | mess around with if they don't know what they're doing (fire
           | hazards and all...)
        
             | 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
             | My commercial UPS already scares me at the fire potential.
             | No way I would take on the risk of some DIY on something
             | that could burn down the place or electrocute me.
        
           | sirmoveon wrote:
           | No, don't do it. I understand his thought process because
           | they are both 12v batteries with more capacity, but car
           | batteries are made for high burst of energy which a car
           | engine ignition requires, whereas UPS batteries are made for
           | slow drains. Also, these UPS are made for charging battery
           | cells in a certain way, if you start to stack a bank of
           | batteries of the same model in parallel hoping for more
           | capacity, even then its a problem for the UPS's charger, they
           | won't charge evenly and eventually becoming a problem.
        
             | zdragnar wrote:
             | Marine deep cycle batteries might work better, but at some
             | point I'm pretty sure lithium would be price competitive.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | It isn't quite that bad. the batteries are close enough
             | that it will work.
             | 
             | the real worry is these are already a fire hazzard and so
             | something goes wrong insurance will blame the mod even if
             | not at fault
        
             | chatmasta wrote:
             | I like to keep my hardware competence sufficiently low so
             | that I'm never cursed with the false confidence to even
             | _consider_ "drilling a hole in a UPS," nevermind wiring it
             | to a car battery in my closet...
        
               | nancyminusone wrote:
               | You seem like the kind of guy who _doesn 't_ enjoy a nice
               | sulfuric acid spill on the floor, haha
        
               | chatmasta wrote:
               | I will mess with all kinds of hardware, especially mini
               | PCs and routers.. I once had a few hundred iPhones in my
               | closet... but I draw the line at anything that uses
               | batteries or electricity in a non-standard way. If the
               | wire can't carry data, I'm not touching it.
               | 
               | Maybe it's because when I was a kid, I fancied myself an
               | experimenter, and I had a wire ripped off a lamp, and
               | touched the two ends together...
        
           | cyberax wrote:
           | It's a bit trickier than you think. And can be dangerous.
           | 
           | The discharging circuitry is fine, but the _charger_ might
           | overheat because a larger battery can draw more current while
           | charging for longer periods. I discovered that when I tried
           | to attach a "lead-acid compatible" LFP battery to an UPS.
           | 
           | These days, it's just easier to buy a dedicated rack-
           | mountable LFP battery originally meant for solar
           | installations, an inverter/charger controller, and a
           | rectifier. The rectifier output will serve as a "solar panel"
           | input for the battery. You get a double-conversion UPS with
           | days-long holdover time for a fraction of a lead-acid UPS.
        
           | alnwlsn wrote:
           | There's not much to it, you just take the small 12V sealed
           | lead-acid cell out from the bottom of the UPS, extend the two
           | leads, and connect a larger capacity lead-acid battery of the
           | same voltage.
           | 
           | If you don't recognize the terms "sealed", "lead-acid",
           | "battery", "capacity", or "voltage" then you shouldn't do
           | this.
           | 
           | About the only advantage of it is that it's cheap (free if
           | you find a UPS in the trash with an already dead battery),
           | but those cheap UPSs make really crap quality power, and for
           | some of them the only reason they don't overheat is because
           | their stock battery is so small. It's a bit like how you can
           | cook a whole turkey in the microwave, but you probably don't
           | want to.
        
         | preisschild wrote:
         | I just use a small UPS to make sure all data is written to the
         | drives properly before the battery runs out.
         | 
         | Do you have power outages often? Even if I have one, my
         | services can come up automatically without doing anything, when
         | the power is restored.
        
           | porridgeraisin wrote:
           | Same. I have two small UPS. The first I connect to my
           | computers and it lasts about 15 minutes. Enough for me to
           | save/checkpoint whatever in a restorable way. The second I
           | connect to the wifi router. This lasts for a while longer and
           | it's pretty useful. In those 15 minutes local network still
           | works. And if the power comes back in a minute or two (which
           | happens more often than outages that last hours where I am),
           | then I don't have to wait for the wifi routers painfully slow
           | boot time.
           | 
           | Speaking of... does anyone know how to speed up wifi router
           | boot time? Stupid thing takes 5 minutes almost.
        
           | 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
           | I would be happy with smaller/lighter UPS that will only
           | provide 10 seconds of juice. I only purchased the thing
           | because the lights in my apartment would flicker a couple of
           | times a week.
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > I have a few things that mount remote file stores and these
         | mounts usually fail upon boot due to the speed at which certain
         | devices boot up - and I've decided not to solve that yet
         | 
         | If your OS is using systemd, you can fix that pretty easily by
         | adding an After=network-online.target (so the ExecStart doesn't
         | even try to check if there is no networking yet) and an
         | ExecCondition shell script [1] to actually check if nfs / smb
         | on the target host is alive as an override to the fs mounts.
         | 
         | Add a bunch of BindsTo overrides to the mounts and the services
         | that need the data, and you have yourself a way to stop the
         | services automatically when the filesystem goes away.
         | 
         | I've long been in the systemd hater camp, but honestly, not
         | having to wrangle with once-a-minute cronjobs to check for
         | issues is actually worth it.
         | 
         | [1] https://forum.manjaro.org/t/for-those-who-use-systemd-
         | servic...
        
           | jmholla wrote:
           | Here's a deeper article on ordering things around network
           | startup: https://systemd.io/NETWORK_ONLINE/
           | 
           | It doesn't conflict with anything you've said, just a very
           | handy document.
        
           | VTimofeenko wrote:
           | You can also use _netdev in the mount options, then systemd
           | mount generator will generate the dependency on network
           | automatically.
        
         | trod1234 wrote:
         | Even then, that doesn't resolve the power outage primarily
         | because the local nodes that your Modem transmits to will also
         | be down in the area from same said power outage, most only have
         | backup power for 10-30m, if even that many say there is no
         | backup power for those which is why they disclaim that in their
         | service agreement with regards to emergency phone calling over
         | voip (for services that include unified communications).
         | 
         | So even if your local node could transmit, none of the others
         | could, and they can't buffer either.
         | 
         | To mitigate power outage, you would need both power, and a
         | cellular connection, and that connection would only be good for
         | 2-3 hours (Cell tower backups), and those would require a
         | Cradlepoint.
        
         | thibaultamartin wrote:
         | Author here, indeed I didn't install a UPS. I've tried to keep
         | my setup fairly minimal, and I'm consciously accepting that if
         | there's a power outage my services will be down. I self-host
         | exclusively for myself, not for others.
         | 
         | What I don't want though is a power outage putting my server
         | offline while I'm on holidays, and not be able to access my
         | services at all.
         | 
         | My ISP-provided router supports Wireguard, so I can use that to
         | connect to my KVM and send the Wake on LAN packages.
        
           | jabroni_salad wrote:
           | Out of curiosity, did you look through the BIOS options on
           | your computer? Mine is much less capable than yours (it is a
           | used mini-pc) but it has options to boot itself up upon
           | resuming power.
        
           | behringer wrote:
           | I use UPS for my internet and then remote access such as
           | intel AMT will get you back into your systems if you've
           | specced your hardware to have such features.
        
             | ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
             | You REALLY should not expose AMT to the internet.
        
         | rpcope1 wrote:
         | For anyone thinking of doing this, please please don't. A car
         | battery is probably never a sealed deep cycle battery, and the
         | UPS's charging circuitry is not intended to charge a battery of
         | this size (this is assuming you're using a lead based battery,
         | and not something even more crazy and dangerous like Li-Po or
         | LiFePO4). God forbid you have a cell fail on a car battery and
         | that charger starts cooking the battery. I've had actual car
         | lead acid batteries explode because of poor choices someone
         | else made trying to do something like this, and man when they
         | go, they're dangerous and scary. You really need to pick
         | hardware that's all properly specced and sized for the
         | job...there's a reason Eaton and APC charge what they do.
        
           | nancyminusone wrote:
           | To each their own. I'd personally sleep far more soundly with
           | even a car battery UPS under my bed than with one of those
           | consumer ready lithium ion portable power station batteries
           | they sell on Amazon.
           | 
           | But if you can't explain the difference between voltage and
           | current, or know what "short circuit" means, then this isn't
           | something to poke at.
        
         | nodesocket wrote:
         | I've spend a decent amount on EcoFlow units (Delta 2) that I
         | use as online UPS for my servers and networking. They work
         | great and I also recently installed dual 220watt EcoFlow solar
         | panels on my roof that pump in solar during the day. Works
         | nicely though the ROI admittedly is not there at all, just a
         | cool thing.
        
       | tietjens wrote:
       | This is such a great post. I have a small collection of posts for
       | inspiration in creating my homelab and this is getting added to
       | it. Current have a Pi 4 with PiHole and a Beelink. Going to add
       | one or two more machines.
        
       | MaKey wrote:
       | Your VPS provider likely uses servers with ECC RAM, this home
       | server doesn't. For most people it doesn't seem to matter but for
       | me it does - a home server where I store my data needs to have
       | ECC RAM.
        
         | ninjin wrote:
         | Seconded, but hard to find for small boxes. I have seen _in-
         | band_ ECC on Asus Nucs, but that is as good as it gets from
         | what I can tell.
        
           | MaKey wrote:
           | There is the new Minisforum N5 Pro, which supports DDR5 ECC
           | RAM. I'm keeping an eye on it.
        
         | mvanbaak wrote:
         | totally agree. That's why my homelab storage server(s) are 2nd
         | hand enterprise machines. They come with ECC.
        
           | dardeaup wrote:
           | True! Unfortunately, an enterprise machine is more likely to
           | have considerable power draw and quite possibly be much
           | louder. I have a 2013 Apple Mac Pro (trashcan) that uses ECC.
           | They're also cheap, small, and quiet.
        
         | thibaultamartin wrote:
         | I'm not too familiar with it. Why do you want or need ECC RAM
         | for your homelab?
        
           | MaKey wrote:
           | ECC RAM protects against bit flips (a bit changing to the
           | wrong state). These can be caused by electric or magnetic
           | interference. A pixel of a picture suddenly having the wrong
           | color because of a bit flip is not that bad but some day an
           | important file might end up corrupted because of one. I want
           | to sleep well at night not having to worry about silent data
           | corruption so ECC RAM it is. See here for more information:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_memory
        
       | arjie wrote:
       | I have a setup that is perhaps not as robust, but where my
       | primary aim was that I should be able to incrementally
       | encapsulate the parts.
       | https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/One_Quick_Way_To_Host_A_WebA...
       | 
       | As an example, I use cloudflare tunnel to point to an nginx that
       | reverse proxies all the services, but I could just as well point
       | DNS to that nginx and it would still work. I had to rebuild the
       | entire thing on my home server when I found that the cheap VPS I
       | was using was super over-provisioned ($2/mo for 2 Ryzen 7950
       | cores? Of course it was) and I had this thing at home anyway, and
       | this served me well for that use-case.
       | 
       | When I rebuilt it, I was able to get it running pretty quickly
       | and each piece could be incrementally done: i.e. I could run
       | without cloudflare tunnel and then add it to the mix, I could run
       | without R2 and then switch file storage to R2 because I used FUSE
       | s3fs to mount R2, so on and so forth.
        
       | cyprien_g wrote:
       | Building a homelab is an awesome way to learn a lot of things.
       | 
       | I also used to over-engineer my homelab, but I recently took a
       | more simplistic approach (https://www.cyprien.io/posts/homelab/),
       | even though it's probably still over-engineered for most people.
       | 
       | I realized that I already do too much of this in my day job, so I
       | don't want to do it at home anymore.
        
       | 8fingerlouie wrote:
       | While i get the whole homelab thing is exiting and a great
       | learning experience, it's simply not worth the time and effort
       | for the majority of people.
       | 
       | You will end up paying much more for your services, along with
       | spending a ton of time maintaining it (and if you don't, you will
       | probably find yourself on the end of a 0-day hack sometime).
       | 
       | In Northern/Western Europe, where power costs around EUR0.3/kWh
       | on average, just the power consumption of a simple 4 bay NAS will
       | cost you almost as much as buying Google Drive / OneDrive /
       | iCloud / Dropbox / Jottacloud / Whatever.
       | 
       | A simple Synology 4 bay NAS like a DS923+ with 4 x 4TB Seagate
       | Ironwolf drives will use between 150 kWh and 300 kWh per year
       | (100% idle vs 100% active, so somewhere in between), which will
       | cost you between EUR45 and EUR90 per year, and that's power
       | alone. Factoring in the cost of the hardware will probably double
       | that (over a 5 year period).
       | 
       | It's cheaper (and easier) to use public cloud, and then use
       | something like Cryptomator (https://cryptomator.org/) to encrypt
       | data before uploading it. That way you get the best of both
       | worlds, privacy without any of the sysadm tasks.
       | 
       | Edit: I'll just add, as you grow older, you come to realize that
       | time is a finite resource, and while money may seem like it is
       | finite, you can always make more money.
       | 
       | Don't spend your time hunched over servers. Spend it doing things
       | you love with people that matter to you. Eventually those people
       | won't be there anymore, and the memories you make with those
       | people will matter far more to you in 20 years, than the
       | EUR20/month you paid for cloud services.
        
         | guappa wrote:
         | a NAS has like 10000x more storage than google drive and is
         | also way faster locally.
        
           | brazzy wrote:
           | The premium plan from Google has 2 TB and costs about the
           | same annually as the electricity for the NAS that the GP
           | comment suggested for comparison (at 100% usage). So at the
           | same ONGOING cost (not even counting initial investment), the
           | NAS has 8 times more storage. 16 times if you assume it will
           | be mostly idle. Except if you want high availability with
           | RAID, then you're back to 8 times. And haven't yet thought
           | about backups.
           | 
           | All this assuming that you even _need_ that much storage,
           | which most people definitely do not.
        
             | guappa wrote:
             | Google cloud has deleted user's data by mistake in the
             | past.
        
               | 8fingerlouie wrote:
               | I'm willing to bet that far more data has been lost to
               | people serving their own data, than Google has lost data.
               | 
               | In any case, you should always make backups regardless of
               | where your data is stored. At home, your biggest threat
               | is loss of data, probably through hardware malfunction,
               | house fires or similar.
               | 
               | In the cloud your biggest threat is not loss of data but
               | loss of access to data. Different scenarios but identical
               | outcomes.
               | 
               | Backup solves both scenarios, RAID doesn't solve any of
               | them, but sadly, many people think "oh but I've got RAID6
               | so surely I cannot lose data".
        
               | tracker1 wrote:
               | Having experienced batches of faulty HDDs in a home NAS,
               | you can definitely lose data with RAID6/ZFS-2 even.
               | 
               | Of course, syncing a NAS between yourself and a friend or
               | family member's home may be the better solution over
               | cloud options.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | How much space do you realistically need high availability,
           | redundant storage for ?
           | 
           | For my personal use case, that involves photos and documents,
           | all things i cannot easily recreate (photos less so). Those
           | are what matters to me, and storing them in the cloud means i
           | not only get redundancy in a single data center, but also
           | geographical redundancy as many cloud providers will use
           | erasure coding to make your data available across multiple
           | data centers.
           | 
           | Everything else will be just fine on a single drive, even a
           | USB drive, as everything that originated on the internet can
           | most likely be found there again. This is especially true for
           | media (purchased, or naval aquisition). Media is probably the
           | most replicated data on the planet, possibly only behind the
           | bible and IKEA catalog.
           | 
           | So, back to the important data, i can easily fit an entire
           | family of 4 into a single 2TB data plan. That costs me
           | somewhere around EUR85 - EUR100 per year, for 4 people, and
           | it works no matter what i do. I no longer need to drag a
           | laptop with me on vacation, and i can basically just say
           | "fuck it" and go on vacation for 2 weeks.
        
             | guappa wrote:
             | I just need you to make comparisons that are fair.
        
               | 8fingerlouie wrote:
               | I thought they were.
               | 
               | If you need to commute to work daily, and you're
               | concerned about the cost, you don't really care if you're
               | comparing a city car vs a sports car vs the bus, despite
               | on goes at 80km/h, and another can do 230km/h, if all
               | you're interested in is the price.
               | 
               | Obviously as your storage needs increase, so will cloud
               | costs, but unless you're a professional photographer, I'm
               | guessing 2TB will be more than enough for most people.
               | 
               | Again, not talking about people trying to run their own
               | media server on pirated content, and saving money that
               | way. In my book that's comparable to saving money by
               | robbing a bank. You're not saving anything, you're
               | breaking the law, and 9 out of 10 times, it's cheaper to
               | steal someone else's bike than it is taking a taxi home.
               | 
               | I'm talking actual storage for data you actually own, and
               | possibly even data you have created yourself. Anything
               | that came from the internet can be found on the internet
               | again, purchased or naval acquisition.
        
               | geodel wrote:
               | Sorry, you make some good arguments but then mix them up
               | with clueless assertions.
               | 
               | 2 TB ought to good for everyone is hilarious. There is so
               | many people I know who would fill 512 GB phone in 1-2
               | year with photos and videos.
               | 
               | Maybe you do not have use case or situation where larger
               | storage is needed. But it is strange to assume everyone
               | in same bucket.
        
             | itintheory wrote:
             | > everything that originated on the internet can most
             | likely be found there again
             | 
             | I would that this were true. I guess it depends on what you
             | mean by "the internet", but there's a reason the Internet
             | Archive exists. Sure, you don't need to back up your recent
             | Firefox installer or your Debian ISO but lots of important
             | and valuable data can't be found on the internet anymore.
             | There are very valid reasons that groups like Archiveteam
             | [1] do what they do, not to mention recent headlines like
             | individuals losing access to their entire cloud storage
             | [2].
             | 
             | [1] https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Main_Page [2]
             | https://www.theregister.com/2025/08/06/aws_wipes_ten_years/
        
         | Hamcha wrote:
         | Have you seen the prices for Google Drive et al? The NAS setup
         | you describe (which I wouldn't consider worth the money for
         | that little space) is what, 12GB with 1 parity drive?
         | 
         | Google One for 10TB is 274,99EUR/mo (at least in my country) so
         | you'd make the entire nas price and subscription cost within a
         | few months, let alone years.
         | 
         | There just aren't compelling public cloud for large sizes (My
         | NAS is 30TB capacity and I'm using 18 right now) and even if
         | you go the more complex loops with like S3 and whatnot you
         | still get billed more than it's worth. Public cloud is meant
         | for public files, there's a lot of costs you're paying for
         | stuff you don't need like being fast to access from everywhere.
        
         | thomascountz wrote:
         | OP has admittedly over-engineered their setup. Depending on
         | your goals (cost, speed, space, autonomy), there are less-
         | rigorous solutions for the layperson.
         | 
         | I, for one, don't want to have Google, etc. as a dependency[1],
         | so I will pay some energy cost to do that.
         | 
         | 1: see:
         | https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
        
         | Unit327 wrote:
         | Encrypted data on the servers is only useful if your server is
         | just dumb storage. I want the server to actually do something,
         | e.g. serving media, running home assistant etc.
        
         | Pooge wrote:
         | But on a homelab you can host any service you want and
         | start/stop it whenever you need to. Sure cloud storage might
         | cost less in the short-term, but if you need more storage or
         | more services, a selfhosted option is far cheaper.
         | 
         | VPS are very expensive for what you get. If you have the
         | capital, doing it yourself saves you money very quickly. It's
         | not rare to pay $50 for a semi-decent VPS, but for $2000 you
         | would get an absolute beast that would last 10 years at the
         | very least.
         | 
         | With Docker, maintenance is basically zero and unused services
         | are stopped or restarted with 1 command.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | How many services do you need ? And how much CPU power do
           | those services need ?
           | 
           | I've also self hosted for decades, but it turns out i don't
           | really need that much, at least not public.
           | 
           | I basically just need mail, calendar, file storage and DNS
           | adblocking. I can get mail/calendar/file storage with pretty
           | much any cloud provider (and no, there is no privacy when it
           | comes to mail, there is always another participant in the
           | conversation), and for EUR18/year i can get something like
           | NextDNS, Control D, or similar.
           | 
           | For reference, a Raspberry Pi 4 or 5 will use around 50 kWh
           | per year, which (again in europe) will translate to
           | EUR15/year. For just EUR3 more per year i get redundancy and
           | support.
           | 
           | I still run a bunch of stuff at home, but nothing is opened
           | to the public internet. Everything runs behind a Wireguard
           | VPN, and i have zero redundant storage. My home storage is
           | used for backing up cloud storage, as well as storing media
           | and client backups. And yes, i also have another cloud where
           | i backup to.
           | 
           | My total cloud bill is around EUR20-EUR25/month, with 8TB of
           | storage, ad blocking DNS, mail/calendar/office apps and even
           | a small VPS.
        
             | BrandoElFollito wrote:
             | I did not do the price calculations (in France, and I
             | prefer not to know :) but I host many things except for
             | mail and calendar (mail is tricky to host). Of these 29
             | services, I use maybe 4 daily and 15 monthly. They are well
             | protected, easy to maintain, and serve family and friends.
             | 
             | Not to mention that I love them.
        
         | cyprien_g wrote:
         | The maintenance time is a bit overestimated if you keep it
         | simple.
         | 
         | On my homelab, I update everything every quarter and it takes
         | about 1 hour, so 4 hours a year is pretty reasonable. Docker
         | helps a lot with this.
         | 
         | And I've almost never run into trouble in years, so I have very
         | few unexpected maintenance tasks.
         | 
         | EDIT: I am referring to a homelab that is only accessible for
         | private purposes through a VPN.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | As a bare minimum, you should update your server and docker
           | images daily, or at least whenever there's an update (which
           | you won't know unless you check).
           | 
           | If you only access your homelab over VPN or similar, then by
           | all means, update whenever you feel like it, but if you
           | expose your services to the internet, you want to be damned
           | sure there are no vulnerabilities in them.
           | 
           | The internet of today is not like it was 20 years ago. Today
           | you're constantly being hammerede by bots that scan every
           | single IPv4 address for open ports, and when they find
           | something they record it in a database, along with
           | information on what's running on that port (provided that
           | information is available).
           | 
           | When (not if) a vulnerability for a given service is
           | discovered, an attacker doesn't need to "hunt & peck" for
           | vulnerable hosts, they already have that information in a
           | database, and all they need to do is start shooting at their
           | list of hosts.
           | 
           | You can use something like shodan.io to see what a would be
           | attacker might see (can check your own IP with
           | "ip:xxx.xxx.xxx.xx".
           | 
           | Try entering something like Synology, Proxmox, Truenas,
           | Unraid, Jellyfin, Plex, Emby, or any of the other popular
           | home services.
        
             | cyprien_g wrote:
             | Sorry, I should have mentioned that my services are only
             | accessible through a VPN. Otherwise, I completely agree
             | with you.
        
             | Pooge wrote:
             | > which you won't know unless you check
             | 
             | RSS feeds FTW
        
             | rtkwe wrote:
             | It's pretty easy to soft expose yourself too now with
             | things like cloudflare tunnels without a lot of the
             | security risks. You can put all access behind an secret/API
             | key or OAuth login easily.
        
             | jazzyjackson wrote:
             | I definitely need to get my security hygiene up to snuff,
             | but let me ask you, since using a reverse proxy (caddy in
             | my case) refuses connections without a domain, would the
             | scans reveal anything about my host if they don't know the
             | URL of my jellyfin instance?
        
             | shepherdjerred wrote:
             | > As a bare minimum, you should update your server and
             | docker images daily, or at least whenever there's an update
             | (which you won't know unless you check).
             | 
             | I got this setup automatically with Renovate: https://githu
             | b.com/shepherdjerred/homelab/blob/main/src/cdk8...
        
         | rootsudo wrote:
         | It's great to learn on, and if you happen to have a place with
         | free electricity then even more fun :)
         | 
         | It's also an excuse for me to stay in most summer days.
        
         | onre wrote:
         | As a Northern European (Finland) I can tell you that the
         | electricity cost here for last year was closer to 0,1 EUR per
         | kWh including the transfer fee and taxes. Additionally, more
         | than 40 % of houses here have electric heating. The heating
         | season starts in early autumn and ends in late spring, lasting
         | 8 to 9 months depending on the year. As the electricity used by
         | the device is turned into heat, during the heating season
         | running it costs nothing.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | Yeah, northern scandinavia has plenty of renewable energy.
           | 
           | As for electric heating, that is true in 1:1 heating
           | scenarios, but i assume you guys are also using heat pumps
           | these days, and while you still get heat "for free", it will
           | not be anywhere as efficient as your heat pump.
           | 
           | Yes, it's probably peanuts in the grand scheme of things, i
           | know our air to water heat pump in Denmark uses around
           | 4500-5500 kWh per year, so adding another 100 kWh probably
           | won't mean much.
        
         | hshdhdhj4444 wrote:
         | Google Premium storage, is $100/yr (paid annually) for 2TB of
         | storage.
         | 
         | Even at the high end estimate the homelab is giving you several
         | times the storage for the same cost.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | do you need more space than 2TB ? (excluding things you've
           | downloaded from the internet)
           | 
           | Very few people i know has use for that much storage. Yes,
           | you can download the entire netflix catalog, and that will of
           | course require more storage, and no, you probably shouldn't
           | put it in the cloud (or even back it up, or use redundant
           | storage for it).
           | 
           | Setting up your own homelab to be your own netflix, but using
           | pirated content, is not really a use case i would consider.
           | I'm aware people are doing it, and i still think it's stupid.
           | They're saving money by "stealing" (or at least breaking
           | laws), which is hardly a lifehack.
        
             | Xss3 wrote:
             | I know many people that would fill that space with home
             | videos from phones and digital cameras. Millennials with
             | kids especially.
        
               | 8fingerlouie wrote:
               | You can fit A LOT of photos and videos in 2TB.
               | 
               | My wife is a professional photographer, and while we do
               | archive most of her RAW files somewhere else, pretty much
               | everything HEIC, JPEG or any other compressed format
               | lives in our main cloud.
               | 
               | We have 2.2TB in total for "direct storage", and we're
               | currently using around 1.5TB, and that's including myself
               | and our kids.
               | 
               | My personal photo library has just short of 90,000
               | photos, and about 5,000 videos. My wife's library is
               | roughly twice that. I have no idea how many photos the
               | kids have, but they each take up around 200GB for photos.
               | 
               | And then we have backups, which actually take up about
               | 1TB per person, mostly because that's the space I've
               | allocated for each, so history just grows until it's
               | filled. Photos ideally won't change much. We backup
               | originals along with XMP metadata for edits, so the
               | photos stays the same, and changes are described in
               | easily compressed text files. Backups of course also have
               | deduplication enabled.
        
               | Xss3 wrote:
               | My mother, now in her 70s, has about 4tb worth of photos
               | and videos, and we haven't even started digitizing stuff.
               | 
               | My friend, in her mid 20s, uses nearly 3tb of apple cloud
               | space with photos and videos, mostly of her kids and dog.
               | 
               | I dont even film much but im using about a terabyte.
        
               | close04 wrote:
               | You are moving the goalposts and supporting your generic
               | point only under very narrow _assumed_ conditions.
               | 
               | There's always a "right tool for the job". Sometimes it's
               | the cloud. Sometimes it isn't. The article is for people
               | who found the cloud isn't a good fit and need something
               | at home.
               | 
               | A lot of people have large collections of music or
               | movies. Or want to keep full control over some data no
               | matter the cost. Or need it to work without internet.
               | There are many solid reasons to avoid the cloud and use
               | your own solution.
               | 
               | You are arguing that your original assertion isn't wrong,
               | people's stated needs must be wrong. Because you have
               | different needs so others must be doing it wrong. And
               | this undermines everything else you say.
        
             | 28304283409234 wrote:
             | Five comments up you're talking about 4x4TB NAS setups.
             | Which is it?
        
             | sophacles wrote:
             | > do you need more space than 2TB ?
             | 
             | Yes.
             | 
             | > (excluding things you've downloaded from the internet)
             | 
             | Why on earth would I do that? My storage includes things I
             | downloaded from the internet that are not there
             | anymore/hard to find/now paywalled. If you were thinking
             | the only thing to download from the internet is pirated
             | media - I haven't included that in my >2TB assessment.
        
         | 000ooo000 wrote:
         | >Don't spend your time hunched over servers. Spend it doing
         | things you love with people that matter to you
         | 
         | Who are you to tell people how to spend their time? Let people
         | have hobbies ffs
        
           | monsieurgaufre wrote:
           | A server will never love you back.
        
             | redserk wrote:
             | Neither will the majority of hobbies for self-enrichment.
             | 
             | It isn't unreasonable to want some alone time.
        
             | guappa wrote:
             | Well I'm ugly so... at least it doesn't actively hate me
             | either.
        
             | geodel wrote:
             | Yeah, also neither it wants to move out because you pushed
             | start button too many times or stay sullen over weekend
             | because dinner plan on Friday got canceled.
        
             | nancyminusone wrote:
             | Neither will a lizard. People still have them.
        
             | ezconnect wrote:
             | It's purpose in life is to serve not to love.
        
           | 8fingerlouie wrote:
           | Sure, run a homelab as a hobby. Everybody has hobbies.
           | 
           | Once your user count goes beyond 1, you suddenly have a SLA
           | as people are dependent on your services. Like it or not, you
           | are now the primary support staff of your local cloud
           | business.
           | 
           | The more users you get, the more time you will need to spend
           | to fix problems.
           | 
           | At which point does it go from a hobby to a 2nd job ?
        
             | 000ooo000 wrote:
             | You're still arguing from the point of view of someone who
             | doesn't want to do it or isn't interested in doing it. Your
             | GP said you 'get' homelabs but it's increasingly clear you
             | do not - and that's ok. People run homelabs because they
             | enjoy learning and tinkering. If they don't enjoy it, or
             | they can't risk having the odd problem, they have other
             | options they can explore. It's not really any more
             | complicated than that. Believe it or not, people are
             | capable of evaluating the tradeoffs and making a sensible
             | decision about what to host themselves.
        
         | mannyv wrote:
         | Once you know how to build and maintain infrastructure you
         | realize that while it's nice to know how to do it, it's not
         | cost-effective.
         | 
         | The thing is, it's worth it to learn. Do you know the basics of
         | how to set up a completely redundant environment? There's no
         | conceptual difference between setting one up at home by using
         | consumer equipment and setting it up in a data center. You can
         | get pretty capable equipment (Mikrotik) for less. The
         | enterprise stuff has more configuration options, but it's
         | doubtful that you'll use most of them.
         | 
         | Set up backup WANs, redundant routing, DNS, power, etc is fun.
         | Setting up redundant load balancers, backend services,
         | databases, etc is also fun. It's not hard to do, it's just hard
         | to get it all right. There are probably a zillion configuration
         | parameters you can mess with, and only a few sets actually
         | work. Unfortunately, the sets that work in your home won't be
         | the ones that will work in production, but you could possibly
         | run load tests etc to simulate a real environment (though
         | simulating multiple clients from multiple endpoints is harder
         | than you think).
         | 
         | And of course, getting production equipment is hard. Nobody has
         | 2 F5s lying around. And you really need at least 4 F5s, because
         | you have redundant locations. That's a lot of cashola. And in
         | most environments you wouldn't want some random person messing
         | around with the production (or test) F5s. It's the same with
         | NAS, VM servers, docker registries, etc.
         | 
         | I suspect getting the whole end-to-end setup isn't something
         | people experience anymore, because small companies have (or at
         | least should have) moved to the cloud by now.
        
           | iamleppert wrote:
           | Not everything that seems "interesting" is worth it to learn
           | from an economic perspective. Could it be worthwhile for
           | someone studying for the A+ Computer Technician test? Maybe.
           | Could it be worth it for someone looking to impress their
           | boss Harry? Possibly, if Harry also controls your pay and has
           | a penchant for overpaying for locally run infrastructure and
           | a distrust of the cloud. Possibly. These kinds of investments
           | are based evaluated at the individual level --- not everyone
           | will benefit. Some may find themselves no more competitive in
           | the job market as your average IT clown, but as always,
           | results will vary.
        
             | bkettle wrote:
             | Learning things because they are interesting is reason
             | enough in itself for many people, regardless of any
             | economic benefit.
        
         | vladvasiliu wrote:
         | The others' points are valid. Google Drive is rather expensive,
         | Hetzner is cheaper and works well enough.
         | 
         | However, it also depends on how you use that data. In my case,
         | I'm a Sunday photographer, so I tend to wrangle multiple GB of
         | data at a time. I usually edit my photos locally, but I
         | sometimes will want to revisit older stuff. I can download it,
         | but it's a PITA and s_l_o_w. Google drive file stream is
         | terrible for this, you never know if the files are uplaoded or
         | not. Onedrive isn't any better. I haven't tried dropbox.
         | 
         | Hetzner has some storage box which exposes SMB but doesn't seem
         | to enforce encryption nor IP filtering, so I'm not very
         | comfortable with that.
         | 
         | Also, my internet connection pretends I have 5 Gb down, 0.5 up.
         | The down part is usually as expected (my machine only has a 1
         | Gb nic), but upload is sometimes very slow. Running a local NAS
         | is much faster. It's ZFS, so backups are trivial to send to
         | encrypted offsite storage.
         | 
         | It also doesn't need to run 24/7, which helps with power usage
         | (0.22 EUR/kWh here).
         | 
         | > I'll just add, as you grow older, you come to realize that
         | time is a finite resource, and while money may seem like it is
         | finite, you can always make more money.
         | 
         | Indeed. Waiting around for files to transfer gets old quick. I
         | have better things to do with my time. My NAS needs a whopping
         | five minutes of my time every now and again when a new kernel
         | comes out.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | lol.
         | 
         | don't spend your time cooking food, pay for others to prepare
         | it for you.
         | 
         | don't spend your time maintainig a house, rent and let someone
         | else do the maintenance.
         | 
         | just lease a car and get a new one automatically every 3 years.
         | 
         | honestly, everyone has their own setpoint for things. and there
         | are degrees of solutions for every point you make.
         | 
         | I think most people _would_ benefit from being just a little
         | bit self-sovereign.
         | 
         | Personally, "majority of people" could use one low power
         | fanless server with 1tb for the few things most people need
         | continuously online.
         | 
         | And separately a server you turn on occasionally with lots of
         | storage, like maybe
         | 
         | https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09TV1XPDD
         | 
         | I'm reminded of jwz's backups info www.jwz.org/doc/backups.html
         | 
         |  _" RAID is a goddamn waste of your time and money"_
        
           | vinyl7 wrote:
           | Seems like a lot of adults yearn for having a mommy and daddy
           | take care of everything for them
        
             | m463 wrote:
             | Alternately, most computer vendors actively interfere with
             | your independence and force you into the cloud in various
             | ways with your computers and phones.
        
         | thibaultamartin wrote:
         | Author here, I completely agree. In fact, I even wrote about
         | it: https://ergaster.org/posts/2023/08/09-i-dont-want-to-host-
         | se...
         | 
         | My homelab is my hobby. I maintain it for my pleasure and to
         | learn new skills. We have an infra nerds club with a few
         | colleagues and we're having a lot of fun comparing our
         | approaches!
        
         | motorest wrote:
         | > Don't spend your time hunched over servers. Spend it doing
         | things you love with people that matter to you.
         | 
         | To some, spending time hunched over servers is doing things
         | they love.
         | 
         | I mean, each and every thing you said about maintaining a home
         | lab you can also say about maintaining cloud infrastructure.
         | 
         | There was a time when having hobbies was normal. It seems
         | nowadays some people mistake hobbies for work after hours?
         | Where is that hacker mindset?
        
         | alnwlsn wrote:
         | The price and effort is practically irrelevant. My homelab is
         | _mine_ , local, and answers only to myself and a wall outlet.
         | Also, where I live, the internet is simply not dependable
         | enough to consider otherwise.
        
       | crinkly wrote:
       | Yeah good luck with that one.
       | 
       | I ran a home lab for a number of years. This was a fairly
       | extensive set up - 4 rack mount servers, UPS, ethernet switch etc
       | with LTO backups. Did streaming, email and file storage for the
       | whole family as well as my own experiments.
       | 
       | One morning I woke up to a dead node. The DMZ service node. I
       | found this out because my wife had no internet. It was running
       | the NAT and email too. Some swapping of power supplies later and
       | I found the whole thing was a complete brick. Board gone. It's
       | 07:45 and my wife can't check her schedule and I'm still trying
       | to get 3 kids out of the door.
       | 
       | At that point I realised I'd fucked up by running a home lab. I
       | didn't have the time or redundancy to have anyone rely on me.
       | 
       | I dug the ISP's provided WiFi router out, plugged it in and
       | configured it quickly and got her laptop and phone working on it.
       | Her email was down but she could check calendar etc (on icloud).
       | By the end of the day I'd moved all the family email off to
       | fastmail and fixed everything to talk to the ISP router properly.
       | I spent the next year cleaning up the shit that was on those
       | servers and found out that between us we only had about 300 gig
       | of data worth keeping which was distributed out to individual
       | macbooks and everyone is responsible for backing their own stuff
       | up (time machine makes this easy). Eventually email was moved to
       | icloud as well when domains came along.
       | 
       | I burned 7TB of crap, sold all the kit and never ran a home lab
       | again. Then I realised I didn't have to pay for the energy, the
       | hardware or expend the time running it. There are no total
       | outages and no problems if there's a power failure. The backups
       | are simple, cheap and reliable. I don't even have a NAS now - I
       | just bought everyone some Samsung T7 shield disks.
       | 
       | I have a huge weight off my shoulders and more free time and
       | money. I didn't learn anything I wouldn't have learned at work
       | anyway.
        
         | plqbfbv wrote:
         | I can relate to this. I still run my own x86 box as a router to
         | have the AP controller, but I'm strongly considering dropping
         | this.
         | 
         | I need to update it and patch it, hoping nothing goes wrong in
         | the process. If something breaks I'm the only one that can
         | repair it, and I really don't want to hear my wife screaming at
         | me at 7am when I wake up.
         | 
         | Eventually I came to your same conclusion, but I still run a
         | hybrid setup that allows me to keep the router (for now), and a
         | NAS for backup (3-2-1) and some local services. I run a
         | dedicated server from Hetzner for "always on" services, so that
         | the hardware, power redundancy and operational toil are
         | offloaded. I gave up long ago on email: any hosting service
         | will be way better than me doing it - I know I _can_ do it, but
         | is it worth my sanity? Nope.
        
         | thibaultamartin wrote:
         | Author here, thanks for the warning! I'm all too familiar with
         | this kind of situation! This homelab is for fun and learning.
         | 
         | I wrote about why I don't (want to) self-host services for
         | others: https://ergaster.org/posts/2023/08/09-i-dont-want-to-
         | host-se...
        
       | tehlike wrote:
       | I moved my side project to my garage so I don't have to pay
       | hetzner 600+$ and counting every month
        
         | tracker1 wrote:
         | I've got a single server and a /28 IP block on OVH for public
         | facing stuff. Mostly because it's cheaper than the bump from my
         | "home" internet to "business" to be able to use common server
         | ports (blocked on the home service).
         | 
         | Works well enough for what I need.
        
           | tehlike wrote:
           | I use cloudflare tunnel to do most of this, and i am fine
           | with the implications (like CF mitm'ing my website traffic).
        
         | lazyweb wrote:
         | I did the exact opposite. And by that I mean physically moved
         | my homelab into their colo earlier this year. Runs like a
         | charm, costs about 500EUR per month total.
         | 
         | Sounds like a lot, but I was almost paying the same before -
         | 220EUR for power at home, 110EUR for a dedicated Hetzner
         | server, 95EUR for a secondary internet connection (as not to
         | interfere with the main uplink used for home office by my
         | partner and me).
         | 
         | Not having to deal with the extra heat, noise and used up space
         | at home anymore has been worth it as well.
        
           | tehlike wrote:
           | My storage needs were increasing by the day. Electricity is
           | now a small monthly cost. I have more cores and ram than
           | ever, and can easily expand it. Main machine now runs with
           | 1TB ram and 15TB SSD and other has more than 384G ram. I
           | currently use 3TB ssd storage, and get way more performnce
           | than Hetzner's VMs with ceph ssd disks. I do need redundancy,
           | but it's not something hetzner was giving me anyway, and if
           | my anectode is not a mess up, i actually got database
           | corruption on hetzner that never happened on my own local
           | setup.
           | 
           | I'd have colo'ed or used dedicated as it's definitely better
           | than their VMs, but they don't have that in their US
           | datacenters.
           | 
           | I am pretty happy with my current setup, I have significantly
           | less down time (few mins a month) than when I was on hetzner
           | - but this is mostly due to my need for more ram at times.
           | 
           | I also used this as an excuse to get 56G mellanox fiber
           | switch and get poe cameras etc in a full homelab manner, so
           | it's been fun, on top of being cheaper. Noise is not a
           | concern, I got a sound-proof server rack that's pretty nice.
           | It takes up space, but i have kids, so my garage is near full
           | at times anyways :)
        
       | annoyingnoob wrote:
       | I love infrastructure. I run my own services at home too, and
       | have for many years. But to be honest, the older I get the less
       | fun it is to deal with issues that come up from time to time.
       | 
       | At some point you'll need to upgrade hardware and software, you
       | get to do the exercise over again. There will always be lessons
       | learned and its get better each time. Its still work.
        
       | philip1209 wrote:
       | This is cool - I have a similar home lab on a Mac Mini [1].
       | 
       | The encryption question is interesting. I don't have disk
       | encryption turned on, because I want the computer to recover from
       | power failure. If power turns off then on, the server would be
       | offline until I decrypt it.
       | 
       | How does your "Wake on LAN" work with the encryption?
       | 
       | [1] https://github.com/contraptionco/toolbox
        
         | doubled112 wrote:
         | They mention it in the article, in a big yellow note box.
         | 
         | You could use an IP KVM, or you could install Dropbear SSH
         | server into the initramfs.
        
           | thibaultamartin wrote:
           | Author here, indeed I bought a JetKVM. A colleague had one
           | and recommended it warmly! I'm Very happy with it so far, but
           | my usage has been rather basic.
           | 
           | I've heard that it might be difficult to get one in the US
           | though.
           | 
           | https://jetkvm.com/
        
             | doubled112 wrote:
             | I've looked into similar solutions since the mini PC I'm
             | using as a home server doesn't support WoL, but never
             | pulled the trigger.
             | 
             | I keep putting it off since it is on a UPS and power
             | outages aren't that frequent. Accessibility isn't too bad
             | since it's under the TV stand.
        
       | st3fan wrote:
       | "I used the full disk with LLM, and set up disk encryption"
       | 
       | I know we're in the AI hype cycle but I bet you meant LVM there
       | >:-)
        
         | thibaultamartin wrote:
         | Oh lord of the rings, that's embarrassing. Thanks for reporting
         | the typo!
        
       | rpcope1 wrote:
       | I really don't get why people like the Minisforum stuff over
       | alternatives. I've unfortunately been given one, and honestly I'm
       | really unimpressed between crap firmware, no real expandability
       | and just all of the other compromises that come with buying
       | Aliexpress hardware. For the same money you can either pick up a
       | used entry model Dell/HP/Lenovo server (and if they're E3/W/other
       | entry level Xeon, they're usually not terrible on power) or get a
       | good ATX chassis and power it with some off lease Supermicro
       | hardware. Then you don't need to compromise on things like OOB
       | management, hot swap bays, a real SAS card, real 10G nics, ECC
       | ram, etc. etc. Maybe people are just afraid of doing a little bit
       | of putting hardware together? I've seen and have systems that use
       | the above gear that have been going for well over a decade now,
       | with basically no hiccups, and even the old Sandy Bridge era E3
       | stuff both punches above probably even RPi5 and N100 and doesn't
       | draw more than 30-40W when you don't have spinning disks in
       | there. I'm sure if you avoid AMD and go find a newer T variant
       | Intel chip, you can both have your cake and eat it.
        
         | daymanstep wrote:
         | ECC capable hardware tend to be very power hungry.
        
           | p12tic wrote:
           | That's just an artifact of Intel disabling ECC on consumer
           | processors.
           | 
           | There's no reason for ECC to have significantly higher power
           | consumption. It's just an additional memory chip per stick
           | and a tiny bit of additional logic on CPU side to calculate
           | ECC.
           | 
           | If power consumption is the target, ECC is not a problem. I
           | know firsthand that even old Xeon D servers can hit 25W full
           | system idle. On AMD side 4850G has 8 cores and can hit sub
           | 25W full system idle as well.
        
         | Derelicte wrote:
         | N100 is faster and more efficienct than any Ivy bridge E3. At
         | idle the Xeon draws roughly 20W more, which works out to
         | $30USD/year at the national average electricity prices. That
         | gap widens as the load increases.
         | 
         | I can totally see why someone who doesnt need expandability
         | would choose the cheap mini PC.
        
           | alsetmusic wrote:
           | When I first got into homelabbing as a hobby, I built a
           | massively overpowered server because I was highly
           | ambitious.it mostly just drew power for projects that didn't
           | require all the horsepower.
           | 
           | A decade later, I like NUCs and Pis and the like because
           | they're tiny,low-power, and easy to hide. Then again, I don't
           | have nearly as much time and drive for offhand projects as I
           | get older, so who knows what a younger me would have decided
           | with the contemporary landscape of hardware available to us
           | today.
        
             | Dr4kn wrote:
             | A decently powerful Server is nice, when you need it.
             | Having some modern APU for decent en- and decoding
             | performance is great.
             | 
             | There are tasks that benefit from speed, but the most
             | important thing is good idle performance. I don't want the
             | noise, heat or electricity costs.
             | 
             | I'm reluctant to put a dedicated GPU into mine, because it
             | would almost double the idle power consumption for
             | something I would rarely use.
        
         | nodesocket wrote:
         | I just purchased a Minisforum mobo BD795i SE with a Ryzen 9
         | 7945HX (16 core, 32 thread). Can't beat the price to
         | performance. Building a NAS / VM server with 5x 14TB Seagate
         | Exos drives, 2TB NVME, 500GB boot SSD, and 96GB of DDR5 memory.
         | I was able to buy all components including a 3u hotswap 5x
         | drive caddy for less than $1,200 all in. Can't really beat
         | that.
        
           | indemnity wrote:
           | For appliance-like quickly replaceable little servers like my
           | firewall or other one off roles, they are ok for me, but to
           | run my TrueNAS system (ZFS) I gotta run something with a
           | Supermicro board and ECC. Mission critical workloads that
           | need 24/7 uptime (homelab general purpose always-on server)!
        
             | nodesocket wrote:
             | I am running TrueNAS on it, honestly ECC is overblown out
             | of proportion. This isn't storing military state secrets.
        
         | nullwarp wrote:
         | I used to really like the minis but I had to basically e-waste
         | two of them because the ethernet went bad (lightning strike i
         | think) and there was really no way to replace them and the OS
         | would crash from hardware issues from it.
        
       | jackhalford wrote:
       | Why install proxmox on top of debian? Proxmox distributes an iso
       | that basically does the same as you with preseeding. Although
       | recently had to install proxmox as an apt pkg on top of debian
       | happened because the proxmox iso wouldn't install properly. That
       | actually happened twice. I think I'll just install debian from
       | now on...
        
       | kayson wrote:
       | After some research, it seems much easier to just back up the
       | Proxmox config (and VM disk images, if they're needed) than to
       | define or deploy Proxmox VMs with OpenTofu or ansible.
       | 
       | https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Proxmox_Cluster_File_System_(pm...
        
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