[HN Gopher] How to sell if your user is not the buyer
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       How to sell if your user is not the buyer
        
       Author : mooreds
       Score  : 130 points
       Date   : 2025-08-07 15:09 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (writings.founderlabs.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (writings.founderlabs.io)
        
       | Brajeshwar wrote:
       | This is how the likes of Slack, Postman sells, "Hey, 96% of your
       | developers/team are already using it. It makes sense to buy it."
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | this happens all the time at large companies with small teams,
         | plus if there's a security team they hate it so that's always
         | an angle to lean on "hey 400 people are using 12 different
         | slack workspaces, wouldn't it be nice to manage them all from
         | one corporate account?"
        
           | mooreds wrote:
           | Obligatory mention of the SSO tax: https://sso.tax/
        
             | tw04 wrote:
             | So how exactly are open source software stacks supposed to
             | make money if not by withholding enterprise features from
             | the free version?
             | 
             | There's a reason they all do it, and it's because SSO is
             | one of the few features enterprises are almost universally
             | willing to pay for.
        
               | thewebguyd wrote:
               | The problem is there's a huge gap between "We are a small
               | company, and don't care about SSO" and Enterprise.
               | 
               | The company I work for is in the middle - anything where
               | SSO is gated behind "Enterprise" is not even considered
               | by us. We don't need 90% of the other "features" under
               | the Enterprise plans, and most aren't willing to custom
               | quote us for Basic+SSO.
               | 
               | Withhold it from free versions, sure - but definitely
               | don't lock SSO only behind the most expensive option.
        
               | closewith wrote:
               | Locking SSO behind the Enterprise option works. Your
               | company is an outlier that can be ignored.
        
               | thewebguyd wrote:
               | I'd hardly call a business with between 150-300
               | employees, that cares about SSO but doesn't need the full
               | suite of enterprise features an outlier, I'd imagine
               | that's fairly common nowadays.
               | 
               | Maybe in 2015 it was an outlier, but SSO is now a non-
               | negotiable and with many of these businesses on M365
               | business premium, which includes EntraID P2, SSO is now
               | accessible to a large number of companies where it wasn't
               | before. It's no longer some niche enterprise only
               | functionality, it's a bare minimum for business SaaS.
        
               | tw04 wrote:
               | The fact you're unwilling to even consider a product with
               | SSO behind the enterprise license is what makes you an
               | outlier, and frankly probably a bad customer.
               | 
               | And if you're trying to negotiate custom, non standard
               | licensing when you've only got 300 employees you will
               | likely be a noisy customer in perpetuity.
               | 
               | No offense, that's just how I'm betting 99% of folks read
               | your response.
        
               | codeflo wrote:
               | Companies of that size are common. It would in isolation
               | even be profitable to serve them. The problem is if you
               | introduce a middle tier that includes SSO, many
               | enterprises will go for that instead of the expensive
               | enterprise tier you want them to buy. Basically, you
               | sacrifice medium companies as customers in order to chase
               | after that sweet enterprise money.
        
               | thewebguyd wrote:
               | That makes sense, but I still think there are other
               | features that can be gated behind enterprise to help make
               | sure that doesn't happen while still providing SSO for
               | smaller companies.
               | 
               | You can have user limits on the non-enterprise plans
               | (Microsoft does this, for example, with Business Premium
               | locked at 300 users or less), or gate other features
               | behind enterprise: Have MFA across the board, but lock
               | conditional access behind enterprise, lock more advanced
               | audit logs & reporting behind enterprise, lock RBAC
               | behind enterprise, or data residency, custom security
               | policies, API limits, etc.
               | 
               | There are numerous other features that are non-negotiable
               | for enterprises to help funnel them into the enterprise
               | plan, while still being able to service medium companies
               | with SSO.
        
               | MoreQARespect wrote:
               | Companies of that size are served by the "enterprise call
               | a salesperson" offering. If you really don't need all of
               | the other features you can probably negotiate a discount.
        
               | autoexec wrote:
               | withholding enterprise features from free versions isn't
               | the problem, the problem is charging extortionate rates
               | for an important security feature.
               | 
               | > "Decouple your security features from your value-added
               | services...If your SSO support is a 10% price hike,
               | you're not on this list. But these percentage increases
               | are not maintenance costs, they're revenue generation
               | because you know your customers have no good options."
        
               | ozim wrote:
               | Problem is lots of SSO implementation will be dealing
               | with some arrogant architects claiming you know nothing
               | and their semi broken SAML is something you should
               | implement for them for free - repeat for 100 times for
               | each customer having their own way of breaking the spec
               | or using something crooked.
               | 
               | It is getting better with Entra P2 or Okta as it is
               | couple of minutes to configure if you use good framework
               | in your projects.
               | 
               | But the tax was because of what I wrote about in first
               | place.
        
               | tetha wrote:
               | This is why at work, we're encouraging and recommending
               | to use some kind of SSO, but we're basing our cost off of
               | the customers IDP.
               | 
               | Some "green" IDP like O365 OIDC, Okta, Entra and such are
               | usually included without extra cost (and will be self-
               | service soon, too). Some "yellow" - usually SAML - IDPs
               | come at a fixed fee. We know them, we know they are
               | weird, but we can deal with it.
               | 
               | Other things are flagged as red and call in hourly billed
               | projects and recurring maintenance fees. Like, one
               | customer has an in-house developed SAML IDP written in
               | PHP a decade ago or so. I want our customers to use SSO,
               | but that's a level of jank I'm not supporting for free.
        
               | mooreds wrote:
               | Heya, I work for a commercial auth provider but we
               | provide a free version with unlimited SSO connections.
               | (Details in profile if you are interested.) So I have a
               | bias.
               | 
               | There's a number of ways for open source software stacks
               | to make money, but I agree that finding features that
               | companies with money will pay for is a great one.
               | 
               | I think Patio11 said it once, but SSO feels now like
               | HTTPS felt in 2015. Used to be super expensive, but now
               | should be "table stakes".
               | 
               | Other ways open source companies can make money:
               | 
               | - hosting (offers that sweet sweet recurring revenue)
               | 
               | - support (especially SLAs, which pair nicely with
               | hosting)
               | 
               | - other enterprisey features, such as integrating with
               | enterprisey tools (DataDog, SIEM tools)
               | 
               | - other auth features like fine grained authorization
               | (RBAC, ABAC, PBAC) and provisioning (SCIM)
               | 
               | - control planes (I see this with tools like Cerbos and
               | Permit which both offer fine grained authorization
               | execution engines that are free, but charge for the
               | control plane)
               | 
               | - certifications (SOC2, FIPS, HIPAA, PCI). this might not
               | make sense in all cases, it does depend on the tool
               | 
               | - custom feature development (better if this is pulling
               | forward planned development rather than something
               | unplanned)
               | 
               | It's not easy, though.
               | 
               | I wrote more on my personal blog about freemium[0] and
               | open-source[1] business models.
               | 
               | 0: https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/3621
               | 
               | 1: https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/3438
        
             | ralferoo wrote:
             | Some of these seem iffy. Looking at one at random with a
             | seemingly excessive increase:
             | 
             | Coursera: $399 per u/y -> $49875 per year [7], 12400%
             | 
             | So, I check out the footnote:
             | 
             | [7] Coursera requires a minimum of 125 users to access SSO
             | pricing. As they do not have an Enterprise price listed,
             | this price just scales their lower cost tier up to 125
             | seats.
             | 
             | Dividing by 125 shows the SSO pricing is $399, so exactly
             | the same as the non-SSO pricing. I fail to see how this is
             | an SSO tax.
             | 
             | It might be that there is an SSO tax as the Enterprise
             | price wasn't available to them, but listing it as 12400%
             | increase seems like a deliberate attempt at deception.
        
               | theamk wrote:
               | looks legit to me.
               | 
               | I've used to work in small startup with ~10 people. The
               | owner was always happy to pay for tools to developer
               | productivity. We did not subscribe to Coursera, but in
               | the theoretical case we'd all want to, the pricing would
               | be:
               | 
               | 10 users, no SSO: $3999/year
               | 
               | 10 users, with SSO: $49875/year
               | 
               | It's an SSO tax, and a super hefty too. We'd probably
               | balk at it and chose the less-secure option instead. And
               | the fact that we'd get extra 116 licenses we had no need
               | for is absolutely irrelevant, there is nothing we can do
               | with it at all.
        
               | ralferoo wrote:
               | Even in your example, and assuming that the only feature
               | that the enterprise plan offers is SSO, that's not even
               | close to a 12400% increase, that's a 1147% increase.
               | 
               | My point was that saying the minimum order is 125 seats
               | for enterprise, and so claiming that the price for a
               | single seat is increase by 12400% is being deceptive.
               | 
               | If you buy a six-pack of beer, you don't say "This is
               | terrible! I only wanted one beer and this six-pack is a
               | 500% increase in price!". If you only want one beer, you
               | just buy the single beer and leave the six-pack on the
               | shelf.
        
               | theamk wrote:
               | If there is an option to buy a single beer on the shelf,
               | sure. But in this case there is no such option.
               | 
               | Imagine you _really_ wanted to try Foobar beer. So you
               | get to beer distributor, and you find out that while each
               | bottle is just $5, the minimum order is a crate of 144
               | bottles and they give no samples.
               | 
               | In this case, you might say: "Yeah, I really wanted to
               | try that beer but there is no way I am paying $720 for
               | that". It's exactly the same here.
               | 
               | (re 1147% vs 12400% - sure, maybe you could argue you
               | should not look at a single license, but rather at a pack
               | of 5 or 10 licenses... but this does not change numbers
               | much for Coursera, it's still huge increase.)
        
         | stronglikedan wrote:
         | It why students get so much free software too.
        
         | ezekg wrote:
         | I think this is also one of the hidden benefits of commercial
         | open source and similar models: individual adoption grows
         | corporate adoption.
        
           | apples_oranges wrote:
           | Clearly, yet many open source contributors just work for
           | free..
        
             | ezekg wrote:
             | I specifically said commercial open source, which is
             | different -- one hopefully has a business model and the
             | other does not need/want one. Working on open source
             | outside of a commercial context has never promised
             | compensation, and expecting compensation for it ends in
             | pain.
        
           | scarface_74 wrote:
           | Except for that whole every company that tries it ends up
           | either not making money money on it, get Amazoned (where
           | Amazon offers a hosted version and makes money), or ends up
           | seeing the error of their ways and using a more restricted
           | license and still struggles.
        
             | ezekg wrote:
             | Agreed. There are better models to commercial open source
             | that align better with business sustainability, like fair
             | source. I was mainly referring to bottom-up adoption, not
             | sustainability.
        
             | ta1243 wrote:
             | Amazon already has a relationship with your corporation,
             | it's easy to buy their hosted elastic search
             | 
             | Even if the original elastic company offers it cheaper, or
             | better, that's a massive hill to climb. Corporations don't
             | care about costs, they care about pieces of paper, or less
             | charitably nice dinners with the sales team.
        
         | gcatalfamo wrote:
         | "If they already use it, why should I buy it?"
         | 
         | It sounds like a trivial question to answer, but it just
         | exposes the level of detachment that exists between who makes
         | the purchase decisions and its users in SME context.
        
           | takinola wrote:
           | Because you want to control who uses it (offboard separated
           | employees, onboard new employees automatically), integrate
           | into your auth systems to make it easier for employees to
           | access, get an SLA if something goes wrong, connect to your
           | data auditing systems, etc, etc. Companies have a lot of
           | needs outside of just the core functionality of a product.
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | You might want to understand the politics and business
             | dynamics before you go too far down that route. You could
             | just end up getting your product blocked and/or replaced
             | with a competitor instead.
        
           | esafak wrote:
           | "Don't you want them to use it more securely, and with
           | enterprise AI features?"
        
             | jagged-chisel wrote:
             | Wait - it's not secure now? We'll be banning it
             | immediately!
        
               | esafak wrote:
               | "No, it's _more_ secure! We have encryption, which means
               | intermediaries can 't snoop, but don't you want to be
               | able to monitor what data goes out?"
               | 
               | etc. There's a laundry list of features enterprises care
               | about, better spelled out in the sibling post.
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | "Well we have Bob from purchasing on the phone and he
               | says we have to put this out for a bid first. And Alice
               | from compliance wants to know, do you have [insert
               | esoteric certification]?"
               | 
               | You really have to know who you are talking to and their
               | motivations before you know what the right sales angle
               | is.
        
               | hinkley wrote:
               | I knew at one point some engineers who added RFC2549 to
               | see if the salespeople were just being yesmen. A few
               | years later I had similar problems with HSM salesman
               | lying about Java support in their products so I can
               | sympathize. Buying a product you cannot use without
               | extreme effort is the pits.
               | 
               | One of them put in a bid to Cisco and got a reply back
               | saying something like they were working on it but having
               | some issues with the birds.
        
       | ecshafer wrote:
       | For enterprises its not usually as simple as sell to the CTO.
       | Some things you need that, if you are AWS or Azure, the CTO and
       | some principle engineer are who you have to convince to move the
       | whole 20k person org over. But for a lot of software its the Line
       | manager or director who is calling the shots, or a division head
       | since division A may use different software than division B.
        
       | user_7832 wrote:
       | This works if the users are able to use the product (in this case
       | on their personal device maybe) first, and are part of the same
       | organisation.
       | 
       | But what about cases where the user isn't directly related to the
       | decision maker? Doubly so when it's a hard to justify purchase?
       | (I.e. you're not selling bread or IBM machines.)
       | 
       | For example, say, a keyless entry fob for a car. The driver
       | benefits immensely. The CTO of Ford may probably not even
       | entertain a meeting ("Huh, what does he think, locks are bad or
       | something?! What's wrong with a secure lock?")
       | 
       | Does anyone have any suggestions for how to approach such a
       | situation if you developed the fob and now want to sell it?
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Demonstrate that competitors are adopting fobs and try to build
         | FOMO.
        
         | at-fates-hands wrote:
         | In your scenario, you're looking at a bottom up approach.
         | Instead of going to Ford, you start at the bottom of the food
         | chain. Used car dealerships, auto body shops, and other places
         | that sell/install accessories for your car.
         | 
         | A great example is remote starters. Same idea. Great for the
         | user, not so much for say Ford. The first places I saw these
         | being installed? Stereo shops would use it as a cross selling
         | feature whenever they were selling something else to a
         | customer. I could be wrong, but it took a few years for the
         | manufacturers to start including remote starters as an add-on.
         | Before then, it was all kinds of other shops selling and
         | installing them.
         | 
         | But its a trench warfare type of deal. You have to get into the
         | hands of the people who can install them, then work your way up
         | to approaching dealerships and larger clients.
         | 
         | I've done this with an anti-theft device. Start small, then
         | build your client base and use that as a springboard to get
         | interest from larger clients.
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | Just be sure your product actually works. Third
           | party/aftermarket remote starters and car alarms are (were)
           | nortorious for causing a varity of intermittent, obscure
           | electrical issues. Not sure if it was the devices themselves,
           | or the installation, or both.
        
       | doppelgunner wrote:
       | Be a middle man, charge a percentage like tiktok per sale.
        
       | greenail wrote:
       | This is a bit of a simplification of how enterprise sales works.
       | A few extra dimensions are sometimes required. For "decision
       | makers" their own personal view of reality may not in fact be
       | accurate. You sometimes must vet that what they tell you (and may
       | in fact believe) actually reflects the actual power dynamics of a
       | big enterprise. There are extra dimensions to consider; The first
       | is: are they in a cost center or are they generating revenue. The
       | second is: are you trying to get new technology adopted or is
       | this considered "standardized". The third is: who might perceive
       | your product as a risk, or a threat to their power? These data
       | points inform your sales strategy both in who you sell to, who
       | you avoid, and when you might choose to engage a particular
       | persona, when to go small and when to go big.
        
       | spauldo wrote:
       | I'll tell you how not to do it.
       | 
       | Require me to give you my contact information just to download
       | something. Have sales people blow up my phone and/or email and
       | ignore polite brush-offs. Keep reaching out to me periodically
       | with requests to have a meeting about how you product can help
       | me.
       | 
       | I don't have buying power, but I do have bitching power and your
       | product will wind up getting bad-mouthed by the whole team
       | eventually. And when the engineer asks us for recommendations,
       | guess what we tell him?
       | 
       | Lookin' at you, Veeam, AWS, and Keyence.
        
         | whstl wrote:
         | Adding Auth0/Okta to the list. Funny enough I had buying power
         | and budget for it, and was gonna ask a Senior engineer to look
         | into it, but the calls got so crazy that I just soured on it.
        
           | vipa123 wrote:
           | Same experience
        
         | thewebguyd wrote:
         | IT Manager here, and deal with this almost weekly at this
         | point. I'll add to your list of how not to do it - ignore my
         | brush-offs and start email blasting others on my team or within
         | the company to get around me. Quick way to get your domain
         | blocked all together.
         | 
         | Also please don't make me sit through a demo just to get a
         | quote. If I want a full demo I'll ask for it, and I need to
         | know pricing first before even considering going any further.
         | I've probably already researched your product, maybe even did a
         | trial if available - I don't need to sit through any number of
         | sales pitches, just give me the numbers.
        
           | mnhnthrow34 wrote:
           | I fairly recently got to switch sides on this. I never take
           | sales calls or want to get on demos as a developer ... but I
           | moved roles a bit and needed to join some calls with the reps
           | at my company for a product I now manage. It has no public
           | pricing.
           | 
           | I was surprised by how much the people who show up for demos
           | seemed to like them and have good relationships with their
           | reps. They thank us for saving them a lot of time they would
           | have spent reading docs and marketing materials to learn the
           | specific things that applied to them, or for us talking about
           | roadmap stuff they don't get to see in the public materials.
           | 
           | Sometimes the price is a surprise to them and it needs a bit
           | of context. Customers who are used to buying software this
           | way seem to read between the lines really well and ask
           | suitable questions about discounts or whatever, when they are
           | surprised by pricing. Often we are able to make something
           | work at a different price than the typical quote, or we can
           | connect the dots so that the rationale is more clear, or the
           | value requires some customization to be done.
           | 
           | My reps tell me this sorta thing is difficult over email,
           | that nobody makes $10k+ purchases without talking to
           | somebody, so if we can't get you on a call the deal falls
           | over.
           | 
           | So I dunno. I'm not a big fan of the requirement for calls
           | really, but I can understand why reps don't just throw quotes
           | around without some conversation.
        
             | thewebguyd wrote:
             | Appreciate the other perspective. I'll even admit there's
             | been cases where the demos have been useful and sparked
             | other questions, but in those cases I hadn't heard of the
             | product before or was coming in blind.
             | 
             | Most of my cases now (and I may be an outlier), I'm looking
             | at something because I both have a need and someone I know
             | recommended it or uses it so I'm already familiar, but at
             | that point it's not so much a sales process and more so "I
             | already know I want this, and I already have the budget and
             | approval, let's get this buying process over with as quick
             | as possible."
        
         | mooreds wrote:
         | Love the idea of "bitching power"; basically anti-"word of
         | mouth". Even if you make something freely available, your
         | sales/marketing/GTM folks can hurt your company's name by being
         | too aggressive.
         | 
         | You should contact to people how they want to be contacted, not
         | how you'd want to be contacted.
         | 
         | It's a difficult incentive design problem though.
        
         | neilv wrote:
         | I've seen some insanely obnoxious email saturation bombing from
         | some SaaS marketing teams. One was emailing me every 5-15
         | minutes.
         | 
         | Sometimes it could just be a rogue sales/marketing person. But
         | other times it looks like it's probably blessed from the top,
         | if not the startup-CEO personally setting the email marketing
         | tool slider controls to maximum trashy level.
        
       | doesnotexist wrote:
       | Situations like this are instances of the
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...
       | 
       | In this case, corporate management holding the purse strings but
       | their workers (devs) using the actual tools. The solution they
       | offer to founders is to make the user your champion and have them
       | sell your product for you.
       | 
       | "The meta point here is that you're not going to talk to the
       | credit card holder; the user/dev is going to do that for you.
       | 
       | Give them the best possible chance at convincing the leadership.
       | Make them look awesome for even bothering the leadership with a
       | choice like this. Make it obviously awesome for them to decide
       | "yes". These users/devs are your sales people."
       | 
       | Maybe that works for dev tools with freemium models, but in many
       | industries where this problem arises its just not possible to
       | even get your product in front of the users. Take hospital
       | systems and EHR purchasing where Doctors and Nurses are the users
       | of the EHR day in and day out but it is the hospital
       | administration that ultimately gets to decide which EHR is
       | deployed. How do you get users to be champions of your product if
       | you can't even get it in front of them?
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Too often we get the reverse. Slick salesman targets the person
         | with budgetary discretion while avoiding letting the users in
         | in the transaction, so by the time they can complain about how
         | terrible the product is, the check has already cleared.
        
           | mlinhares wrote:
           | Yup, then the technical people have to deal with the bullshit
           | and nightmare that is implementing the shitty thing that was
           | purchased. Hard to get around this in large enterprises,
           | someone just decides they're going to use some shitty tool
           | (like that cloud provider no one uses but has great sales
           | folks) and you just get a notice you have to migrate all your
           | apps to the new thing in 3 months cos they got a better
           | contract there.
           | 
           | The school district my kids are changes the parent app almost
           | every year, its always a nightmare for everyone involved, I
           | can't imagine what it is like to work IT in such a place.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | I believe open source is approximately an order of
             | magnitude larger than it would be if developers controlled
             | their own purchasing. What FOSS introduced was the ability
             | to use software without someone with a little power saying
             | no, you can't, because we won't pay for it.
             | 
             | Jetbrains threaded this needle for years by having
             | professional licenses tied to an individual with clauses
             | for time and location shifting. So you could use their
             | software at home, drive to work and also use the same
             | license there.
             | 
             | And they priced it at around the cost of three tech books
             | per year, which it is at least that useful for
             | productivity. I suspect we would be in better shape now if
             | others had copied their model. Rather than the (defunct)
             | Microsoft model of ignoring home piracy and demanding
             | commercial licenses from any company large enough to make
             | it economical to fire off a cease and desist to them and
             | demand back pay.
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Do what big companies do: sell your users!
        
       | shalmanese wrote:
       | Employees, by and large, all share three common desires:
       | 
       | * How do I get promoted?
       | 
       | * How do I get a raise?
       | 
       | * How do I not get fired?
       | 
       | Beyond those common desires are a constellation of more
       | personalized that is specific for each salesperson and the cohort
       | they target (I'm somewhat of an idealist in that I believe people
       | are quite often strongly driven by meaningful non-capitalist,
       | non-realist desires).
       | 
       | In any case, when you're working in enterprise sales, what you
       | have to realize is that, regardless of what the desire is, what
       | your corporate champion is "buying" is a way for them to achieve
       | their goals and only incidentally what is good for the company,
       | where your product is merely a proxy to accomplishing this.
       | 
       | Of course, companies also know this and anyone who has owned a
       | P&L immediately recognizes that the sum of all things everyone
       | wants far exceeds the resources of the balance sheet, thus, some
       | selection process needs to be put in place to allocate scarce
       | resources.
       | 
       | Your corporate champion is ideally far more aligned with you
       | against the company than they are with the company against you
       | and your job is to figure out how to win this selection battle
       | together.
       | 
       | The core insight though, is that people are actually
       | astonishingly bad at performing on this and it's actually quite
       | easy for an outside sales person to become a subject matter
       | expert for 3 core reasons:
       | 
       | 1. Any employee usually only ever has a sample size of 1 whereas
       | you have a broader peek into how this has happened across a range
       | of companies industry wide.
       | 
       | 2. Any employee, only a minor part of their job involves
       | interfacing with outside parts of the firm responsible for
       | allocating resources whereas you treat this as a core competency.
       | 
       | 3. For any person, it's always easier to advise a 3rd party on
       | what to do than to practice the same actions yourself.
       | 
       | What this means though, is that, as an enterprise salesperson,
       | you should understand that your core value comes from developing
       | subject matter expertise in how to help people in your industry
       | get promotions, get raises and avoid getting fired and the
       | product you're representing at the moment is merely the avenue
       | through which you enable that to happen.
       | 
       | The best salespeople I've ever met always share a common core
       | value that they deeply care about making sure everyone around
       | them is getting rich with the faith that some of that money
       | eventually reflects onto them but that's not what drives them.
       | That's why so many immigrants and children of immigrants make
       | such great salespeople, they've seen the material difference
       | wealth has made on their circumstances and they want to spread
       | that opportunity to others.
       | 
       | This is what I advise Founders who start Enterprise focused
       | businesses. Fundamentally, you should be thinking about how do I
       | get someone to VP/Director/Line Manager/Tech Lead 2/3/5 years
       | earlier than if my product doesn't exist and how do you breathe
       | this passion day in day out.
        
         | mlhpdx wrote:
         | Agreed, with the modest addition of "How do I avoid unexpected
         | hassles?" It shares a corner with not getting fired but is more
         | about comfort than risk.
        
       | mfrye0 wrote:
       | This hits home. We're building business intelligence APIs around
       | entity resolution, and the buyer/user split gets messy when you
       | have engineering, product, and data science teams all involved.
       | 
       | Engineers immediately understand why matching messy company data
       | is a nightmare, but executives just see delayed projects without
       | grasping the technical complexity.
       | 
       | We're seeing more success lately with "your team burned N months
       | on data matching that should've taken weeks" rather than
       | explaining what entity resolution even is. We're talking to one
       | company right now that's spent 10 years building their own entity
       | resolution system and it still doesn't work well.
       | 
       | But even then, it depends on the company and what they're trying
       | to do.
        
         | arkmm wrote:
         | How are you guys reaching users with such a technical value
         | proposition? Cold emailing engineers first and then expanding
         | the conversation from there?
        
       | klik99 wrote:
       | The company I founded previous faced this problem - we were
       | selling to a part of the development team that often had no clout
       | in making financial decisions. We were able to sell to smaller
       | companies and larger ones that happened to have people who had
       | enough power to purchase. But the majority of companies had super
       | long sales cycles where we had to work with them to prove out the
       | cost savings to people higher up. Most of the time this went
       | nowhere and cost us a ton of time. It wasn't the only reason the
       | company failed, but a major contributing factor. Glad to see
       | people talking about it because it's something a lot of small b2b
       | companies face and there's surprisingly little advice on it.
        
       | robot wrote:
       | best course: don't. they have a shitty structure so don't bother.
       | find users who are also buyers.
        
       | johngalt wrote:
       | This problem is why so many organizations will do an SSO tax.
        
       | btown wrote:
       | B2B2C marketplaces - especially ones that don't charge the "B2B"
       | users, but take a cut of each transaction, and empower users to
       | encourage transactions through a customized instance of the
       | platform - are a fascinating "final boss level" for this mindset.
       | 
       | Your user is not your buyer, but they _can_ be a distributed
       | salesforce. You need to growth-hack not only for your penetration
       | at the B2B level, but to give them the tools they need to growth-
       | hack their own B2C client bases, with your product at the
       | forefront.
       | 
       | That's a lot to build as a founding team, and occasionally it can
       | be like herding cats - but it can be incredibly lucrative,
       | because you have an incredibly low barrier to entry at the B2B
       | level, but every account naturally scales with value delivered to
       | the end customer.
        
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