[HN Gopher] Laptop Support and Usability (LSU): July 2025 Report
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Laptop Support and Usability (LSU): July 2025 Report
Author : grahamjperrin
Score : 89 points
Date : 2025-08-07 13:55 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| tlhunter wrote:
| FreeBSD is the first thing I try to install on a new laptop. Once
| I play around for an hour I install Linux for the hardware
| support and move on.
|
| I can't wait until the experience is good enough that I can stay
| on it.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| What advantages does FreeBSD bring on a laptop versus Linux?
| mouse_ wrote:
| Anecdotally speaking, in terms of battery life, BSDs (+macOS)
| > Windows > Linux.
|
| Linux does not play nice with batteries.
| myaccountonhn wrote:
| I suspect it has improved. I'm getting 8 hours out of my 5
| year old T480s and I recall getting 4 hours or so when I
| bought it.
| rootnod3 wrote:
| With which battery? Cause on my T480 with FreeBSD I can
| ramp it to about 14 hours.
| myaccountonhn wrote:
| Recently installed this one
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/products/lenovo-
| thinkpad-t480s-batter...
|
| Does the T480 have that much better battery? Maybe I'm
| doing something wrong haha.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Why could that be? Maybe the Linux distro you choose was
| too bloated and caused battery drain?
| rurban wrote:
| Because of no proper battery management, which was only
| recently merged.
| tracker1 wrote:
| It seems like the 6.16 and 6.17 kernels should allow for
| some pretty good improvements on battery and sleep mgt
| across more hardware from what I understand.
| t-3 wrote:
| That's not my experience at all. Macs are great on battery,
| but BSDs are not, they are by far the worst. Linux usually
| does ok, often better than windows, at least once properly
| set up. I only run BSD on my "never leave home/stay
| tethered" laptops because they only get 3-4 hours where
| Linux will get 8-12.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| First-class ZFS support is pretty compelling for any usecase.
| grahamjperrin wrote:
| Kubuntu 25.04 here, root on OpenZFS thanks to the installer
| for Ubuntu.
|
| How is OpenZFS second class on Linux?
|
| <https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/> is not perceptibly
| FreeBSD-first.
| SvenL wrote:
| Cool, one of the best features of ZFS on FreeBSD is to
| boot into a snapshot. ZFS boot environments are really
| cool.
| chungy wrote:
| You can get that with ZFS Boot Menu on Linux too. It was
| inspired by the FreeBSD boot loader.
| vermaden wrote:
| Root on ZFS is not a problem.
|
| While You can spend some hours installing Linux with
| ZFSBootMenu and LUKS encrypted Root on ZFS - there are
| ZERO Linux distributions that allow ZFS Boot Environments
| out of the box.
|
| That is the reason 'why' Linux is not the first class ZFS
| citizen.
| grahamjperrin wrote:
| LUKS-encrypted root on ZFS does not take hours. I chose
| encryption when I installed the OS.
| vermaden wrote:
| When You make research how to make it for the first time
| - it can - if you want to check at least several
| different guides ... but that covers only the encryption
| part.
|
| There is also the ZFSBootMenu part ...
|
| If you have done this at least once - noted the commands,
| etc. - it will take shorter - but never shorter then
| FreeBSD 'Auto (ZFS)' option in the bsdinstall(8)
| installer where you just select the disk on which it
| needs to happen and hit [ENTER] key.
| philjohn wrote:
| Not OP, but off the top of my head, it's a complete OS,
| kernel and user land are released as a whole.
|
| I last ran it about two decades ago, so it's been a while.
| loeg wrote:
| The browser and desktop and terminal you'll inevitably want
| to use aren't any more part of that "complete" OS than they
| are on Linux (and in many ways FreeBSD Ports is more
| immature / less well-integrated than Linux packages).
| vermaden wrote:
| If you just want a browser and notepad - then ANY system
| would do - even Android on X86 PC.
|
| If you want a powerful development/work environment - and you
| do like what and how Linux provides here - use Linux - but as
| I was not satisfied with what/how Linux provided I looked
| somewhere else and I landed in FreeBSD.
|
| Here are some of the reasons and conclusions I came to after
| using FreeBSD (and also Linux/AIX/HP-UX/Solaris in various
| jobs) for about 20 years.
|
| Here:
|
| - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/
| crims0n wrote:
| That was a good read, thank you.
| vermaden wrote:
| Thanks.
| umbra07 wrote:
| Have you ever tried Fedora Silverblue? It seems like it
| would match FreeBSD's advantages, as listed in the first
| section of your blog.
| vermaden wrote:
| I have tried multiple Linux system and besides faster
| WiFi I never find what I look for on the Linux land - but
| thank You for suggestion.
|
| Also - even if I would be forced to use Linux - I would
| probably setup it with ZFSBootMenu and Root on ZFS - I
| believe Fedora does not allow any of these?
| loeg wrote:
| None. If you have a particular fondness for FreeBSD and its
| particular set of behaviors: great. Then use it. If you
| really like jails, and for some reason need them on a laptop,
| and really don't like Linux containers, then, great.
| spauldo wrote:
| It's not so much about advantages as it is about making the
| FreeBSD laptop experience better. A lot of people like
| FreeBSD on the desktop but use Linux on laptops because Linux
| has better support for those.
|
| If you're not the type of person who wants to run FreeBSD as
| a workstation, none of this will matter to you.
| grahamjperrin wrote:
| Not exactly a new laptop, but a few days ago I spent a similar
| period (around an hour) toying with FreeBSD on an HP EliteBook
| 660 16" (G11).
|
| Very rough notes - things were rushed (squeezing as much as
| possible into the end of a Friday afternoon):
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/1mey64f/hp_elitebo...
| pjmlp wrote:
| I keep waiting for the mythical day I can walk into a random
| computer store, and pick a laptop on display with either
| FreeBSD, or most common Linux distros, already pre-installed
| and 100% supported hardware.
|
| Last time I was able to do that was with netbooks, and even
| those were mostly OEM specific distros without updates, if we
| wanted to actually have 100% supported hardware.
| throw0101a wrote:
| "CURRENT" is scheduled become 15.0 by the end of the year:
|
| * https://www.freebsd.org/releases/15.0R/schedule/
|
| * https://www.freebsd.org/releases/15.0R/
| cperciva wrote:
| Technically it's already 15.0, but 15.0-CURRENT is scheduled to
| branch off 15.0-STABLE, which then branches off 15.0-RELEASE.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I could do FreeBSD on my laptop I think. I don't play games, and
| I've been wanting to play around with kqueue.
|
| Is it sort of like OpenBSD? I liked their manpages and their
| built in server thing (httpd). or is it completely different...
| rootnod3 wrote:
| Man pages are close enough to OpenBSD. Httpd is there, but
| renamed to obhttpd. There are some differences between PF and
| relayd for example, but not too difficult to switch.
| nosioptar wrote:
| One big difference is OpenBSD is easier.
|
| For example, I installed FreeBSD on an old laptop and had to
| fiddle with building Xorg to get a GUI. Same laptop on OpenBSD
| just worked after running the installer.
| cnst wrote:
| Yup, that's because X is part of OpenBSD base system, called
| xenocara, whereas in FreeBSD, you have to use the Ports tree
| to install Xorg.
|
| Ports tree in general is a great way to install third-party
| software, but not necessarily for Xorg.
|
| You still install KDE or GNOME through ports/packages on both
| systems, but X being more tightly integrated with the base
| system has benefits in reducing complexity for the rest of
| the components.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| is FreeBSD any worse than a minimalist linux distro like Arch
| in this regard?
| cnst wrote:
| Traditionally, most FreeBSD developers would actually run OS X
| on their laptops, whereas most OpenBSD developers would still
| use OpenBSD even on laptops.
|
| This was especially notable at BSD-wide events like BSDCan,
| AsiaBSDCon, EuroBSDCon etc.
|
| OpenBSD supports suspend to disk, whereas FreeBSD does not. (Is
| this being changed as part of this laptop project?)
|
| OpenBSD has always supported graphics, sound and other desktop
| things in the default kernel, without having to tinker with
| kernel config or loadable kernel modules. FreeBSD?
| http://cr.yp.to/unix/feedme.html
|
| Also, on OpenBSD, the basic X is part of the base system, in
| the xenocara repository, and it basically just works, straight
| from the default installer:
|
| https://xenocara.org/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenocara
|
| OpenBSD actually does NOT support loadable kernel modules at
| all, and you're strongly discouraged from running a customer
| kernel, too. This has a side effect that both graphics and
| sound works out of the box, since deviation from defaults is
| discouraged, and if it didn't work by default, it'd not be
| recommended in the first place.
|
| On FreeBSD, even the most basic X stuff is part of the Ports
| tree, which basically implies that most installations wouldn't
| have it, and it's often far less integrated, and requires way
| more tinkering, than xenocara on OpenBSD. For example, when you
| know most of your installations wouldn't have X, would you have
| graphics and sound support in the default kernel, or would that
| require further tinkering of the kernel config and/or LKM?
|
| (On both systems, you still install KDE and GNOME from
| ports/packages, if needed, it's only the lightweight basic X
| and WM stuff that's part of OpenBSD base xenocara.)
|
| So, even though FreeBSD is faster and more popular in many
| ways, to most people's surprise, OpenBSD actually has better
| laptop support.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| This is very helpful information, thank you!
| cperciva wrote:
| _Traditionally, most FreeBSD developers would actually run OS
| X on their laptops_
|
| That was definitely true five years ago. At this year's
| FreeBSD developer summit in Ottawa I saw more Framework
| laptops than Apple laptops.
| spauldo wrote:
| FreeBSD cares about POSIX and traditional BSD compatibility
| more than OpenBSD does, so it'll run more software than OpenBSD
| can. That can be an upside or a downside depending on your
| point of view - when OpenBSD breaks POSIX they do it for a
| reason.
|
| Man pages are just as good, and the Manual is a bit more
| comprehensive.
| rollcat wrote:
| Can you name specific instances where OpenBSD broke POSIX?
|
| Whichever man page I read, they always cite specific
| standards. They also tend to follow the _de facto_ standards,
| judging by the breadth of software in their ports tree (which
| more often than not, is actually full of Linuxisms).
| spauldo wrote:
| It's not horribly common. If POSIX mandates something
| insecure, OpenBSD will often break POSIX in favor of
| security.
|
| The simplest example is gets(3) doesn't exist in libc.
| rand(3) and family aren't deterministic
| (srand_deterministic(3) gives you that, but it's OpenBSD-
| specific). There are others, but it's not something I think
| about a lot so I can't think of them off the top of my
| head.
|
| If you're genuinely interested I'd recommend asking over at
| DaemonForums. I'm sure someone has compiled a list
| somewhere.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| I'm currently running FreeBSD on a gen3 Intel T14. It's been
| excellent so far, however one minor annoyance has been S3
| suspend/resume. Well, suspend works fine, but resuming triggers a
| restart. I'm hoping the recent S0ix work might fix that.
| grahamjperrin wrote:
| Which version of FreeBSD, exactly?
|
| freebsd-version -kru ; uname -aKU
|
| pkg repos -el | sort -f
|
| pkg repos -e | grep url
|
| I'm not familiar with the meaning of T14, sorry.
|
| Does the Wi-Fi hardware use iwlwifi(4)?
|
| A kernel panic when waking from sleep might relate to the
| graphics driver.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > I'm not familiar with the meaning of T14, sorry.
|
| They probably are telling you the model of laptop; ThinkPad
| T14
| jaypatelani wrote:
| https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/software-bill-of-material...
| doublerabbit wrote:
| I have been how very surprised how well supported FreeBSD has
| been on my MSI Modern laptop.
|
| zfs and boot encryption make it perfect.
| vermaden wrote:
| Earlier I used FreeBSD on ThinkPad W520 (because keyboard):
|
| - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/04/14/freebsd-13-1-on-th...
|
| .. and recently moved to FrankenPad T25 that is based on T480
| (because keyboard):
|
| - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2025/06/26/freebsd-14-3-on-fr...
|
| I do everything on FreeBSD including work.
|
| Some of the topics I covered:
|
| - Unlock Laptop with Phone
|
| - Conferencing and Meetings
|
| - Netflix Signal Telegram
|
| - Network Management with network.sh
|
| - FreeBSD Power Management
|
| - FreeBSD Suspend/Resume
|
| - Oldschool Gaming on FreeBSD
|
| - Minecraft Server in FreeBSD Jails Container
|
| - Secure Containerized Browser
|
| - Print on FreeBSD
|
| - Scan on FreeBSD
|
| - Sensible Firefox Setup
|
| - Operate Android Device on FreeBSD
|
| - FreeBSD Alongside Windows
|
| To just name a few ... because I am slowly closing to 200 of
| these FreeBSD related articles. % ls
| ~/misc/verblog/POSTS | wc -l 175
|
| Regards, vermaden
| jcgrillo wrote:
| Your blog was super helpful getting my machine set up, thanks!
| vermaden wrote:
| Thanks.
| mcflubbins wrote:
| > Operate Android Device on FreeBSD
|
| Can you clarify by what this means? Does that mean running
| Android in an emulator or something else? Thanks
| vermaden wrote:
| All the details are here:
|
| - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2024/10/29/operate-android-
| de...
| mcflubbins wrote:
| Awesome thanks!
| flobosg wrote:
| > FrankenPad T25
|
| TIL. It looks really nice!
| vermaden wrote:
| Thanks. Its basically ThinkPad T480 with just ThinkPad T25
| Palm Rest and Keyboard ... the problem is that Lenovo only
| made 5000 of these ThinkPad T25 ... and now all the ANSI US
| keyboards are GONE.
|
| I also have the original ThinkPad T25 ... but its I just
| passed 2 years time of searching for ANSI US keyboard for it
| ... they are just like ghosts.
| net01 wrote:
| Seeing modern standby is pretty insane in such a short time; it
| was one of the most attended talks in the BSD talks at FOSDEM:
|
| https://fosdem.org/2025/schedule/event/fosdem-2025-6390-wake...
|
| Also pretty impressive because Aymeric started as a GSoC
| contributor and is now sponsored to work on BSD by the
| foundation.
| da_chicken wrote:
| "Short time"? Look, I appreciate that you mean the development
| time for the feature to be added, but S0+network was introduced
| over a decade ago. Early versions were in Windows 8. It shipped
| in Windows 8.1 in 2013. Your link is from 2025 where they're
| talking about S3 support no longer existing at the hardware
| level.
|
| I'm really happy BSD is getting support, but they literally
| waited until hardware for the deprecated standard to cease to
| exist before implementing the new support.
|
| That's not a short amount of time.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| If this is what Microsoft called "connected standby" it's
| worth noting that the early implementation of this even on
| Surface hardware with Windows 8 was hot garbage. It liked to
| wake itself up in your bag and completely drain the battery
| while cooking the computer from lack of ventilation. I made a
| point of always turning the Surface the whole way off any
| time I packed it up because it was so unreliable. Best case
| the battery drained like 5% per hour.
|
| Hopefully the initial BSD implementation is better than
| Windows did.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Even on Windows, the S0 era of sleep has been horrible.
| Regular stories about laptops coming to life in the night:
| fully draining the battery and/or cooking themselves in a
| bag.
| sevensor wrote:
| My least favorite thing about the current generation of
| laptops. Even fully powered off, they sometimes wake up and
| run their batteries down to 0. I do not understand why this
| behavior is allowed for a computer that's not plugged in to
| mains.
| e12e wrote:
| Does anyone know if there's been any efforts towards running
| freeBSD on arm64 laptops?
|
| On Linux there's been some effort:
|
| https://www.linaro.org/blog/linux-on-snapdragon-x-elite/
|
| Ed: hn discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44699393
| rjsw wrote:
| The GPU drivers for Snapdragon are GPL 2.0 only, makes it hard
| to use in FreeBSD. The drivers for GPUs used in X86 systems are
| dual licenced so can be used outside Linux.
| oiWecsio wrote:
| s0ix is another great example that the world, or a bit more
| precisely, "general purpose hardware", has been going to absolute
| fucking shit.
|
| Who the hell needs this crap? S3 used to be just perfect.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo
|
| > [...] a Microsoft specification for Windows 8 (and later)
| hardware and software that aims to bring smartphone-type power
| management capabilities to the PC platform [...] allows the
| operating system to continue performing background tasks, such as
| updating content from apps, when a device is not being used [...]
|
| We've all needed this like a big fucking kick in the groin.
| "Modern standby" my ass.
|
| Microsoft has great firmware engineers, but the functionality
| they design, and then mandate, so that Windows can have its
| rotten tentacles into the guts of the firmware, is absolutely
| disgusting. Technically well implemented, but the goal is usually
| terrible.
| rollcat wrote:
| They're of course trying to match Apple, except Apple has 100%
| vertical integration, from CPU cores to apps.
|
| This is the real challenge with "general purpose hardware". A
| good product is distinguished by attention to detail.
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(page generated 2025-08-07 23:01 UTC)