[HN Gopher] Ergonomic keyboarding with the Svalboard: a half-yea...
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Ergonomic keyboarding with the Svalboard: a half-year retrospective
Author : Twey
Score : 60 points
Date : 2025-08-01 16:36 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twey.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (twey.io)
| eviks wrote:
| The progression from unergonomic garbage default to splits and
| ~glovey form makes sense (with the future more sensitive per-
| finger sensors allowing for more gestures?), though it's a pity
| the health issues were involved, and that the resulting niche is
| small and expensive. Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits?
| Those would already offer health advantage without the mechanical
| premium...
|
| By the way, the layout might better use physical direction
| mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and
| delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by
| its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <>
| and -+-+
|
| > north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys, > find
| the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys
|
| So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
| Twey wrote:
| I agree, I never wanted to get into mechanical keyboards per se
| -- I was always just on the lookout for an ergonomic layout.
| Mechanical switches are cheaper and cheaper these days, though,
| and I suspect the premium on high-end keyboards now is more
| from a combination of the luxury good tax and the lack of
| economies of scale.
|
| I really wanted to make myself a steno theory for the
| CharaChorder, but now I don't have time. There's definitely
| something to be done with keyboards like this and I do reckon
| you could do better than with the mechanical constraints of the
| stenotype, but it's not trivial: the extra inputs are hard to
| make use of if you want to avoid awkward 'scissoring' strokes,
| though there are definitely some comfortable strokes in there
| to mine.
|
| The physical direction thing is a neat idea but a bit hindered
| by the fact that the two sides have very different
| accessibility: typically the inward keypress is much easier
| than the outward keypress. There might be some pairs that's
| good for, though, e.g. the backspace/delete pair you mention
| (if put on the right hand: delete is much less common, in my
| experience, than backspace).
|
| > So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
|
| Right, for me at least that seems to be the case. Other
| Svalboard users seem to pretty unanimously agree that outward
| movements are worse than inward movements, especially on e.g.
| the ring finger, but people differ on how the
| inward/upward/downward movements compare.
| zamalek wrote:
| The think the premium that these devices suffer from is how
| niche they are. Mechanical is relatively niche to begin with
| (programmers and gamers, mostly). Then you add the idea of
| making a single large investment for the good of your health,
| and the pool gets even thinner. Just think of all the garbage
| chairs that people sit on in front of their computer; let alone
| keyboards, which they barely think of (until they get RSI, that
| is).
|
| I'm currently designing one that is a crossover between the
| characorder and a Logitech vertical mouse (but not actually a
| mouse), and I hope to make it cheap. It has been going poorly,
| to say the least. The biggest problem so far is smaller hands,
| multiple designs scrapped when put in front of such a person.
| Maybe I should take inspiration from Svalboard instead?
| Furthermore, Average Joe is not going to tolerate the massive
| dependency on layers that these keyboards often have, so I'm
| still fighting in my head with an approach for that.
| Twey wrote:
| That sounds really cool! I'd love to see it when you've got
| something more concrete. I assume you're already aware of the
| KeyMouse and the AlphaGrip?
|
| https://www.keymouse.com/ https://alphagrip.com/
|
| I don't think the layering needs to be as big a deal as one
| might assume. I mentioned in the post, but in many ways I
| think layering is easier to deal with than larger keyboards,
| and not only that but also culturally small-keyboard users
| are increasingly okay with using layers, e.g. the tiny-
| keyboard gamer crowd, or even most laptops now have a
| dedicated Fn layer in addition to the traditional shift,
| ctrl, and alt. So long as you don't go overboard with it I
| think it shouldn't be that intimidating.
| zamalek wrote:
| More things to ~steal~ take inspiration from, thank you :).
| If I'm completely naive with my approach, I would have 5
| fingers * 4 directions * 2 hands. That's a paltry 40 keys.
| To make matters worse, some of them are sub-optimal: the
| ring finger isn't great at sideways movements (at least on
| my hand). 35-40 keys is end-game enthusiast level
| minimalism.
| lytfyre wrote:
| I grabbed an alphagrip from the ewaste bin at my local
| hackspace a few years ago. Gave it a solid week - which was
| enough for me to get at least marginally competent with the
| layout. I found it extremely awkward. I think the compact
| controller style forces your wrists into an awkward angle,
| so any advantages of minimizing fingers motion is
| compromised by the awkward neutral position. Sloppy back
| switch mechanisms and a really bad trackball on top.
|
| Too uncomfortable to use full time, to awkward to hunt and
| peck for an occasional couch/TV navigation keyboard - It
| went back in the ewaste bin.
|
| I've been on a kinesis advantage 360 for a few years, after
| an ergodox and the older fixed size Advantages. Been eyeing
| the Svalboard, thanks for sharing your experiences!
| Twey wrote:
| Nice! I've never managed to try one myself, but I did
| assume something like that would be the case. To be fair
| to them, they never really promise hand ergonomics --
| just the freedom to type while in weird positions. I
| guess it's kind of the opposite of the Svalboard, in that
| way. If I had problems sitting in a conventional typing
| position, maybe that tradeoff would be worth it.
|
| I love the Advantages and I really missed the bowling
| when I moved to the Ergodox -- it remains my only real
| complaint with that keyboard family.
|
| Glad I could be of help!
| ilc wrote:
| The Datahand / Svalboard branch is even more niche than a
| standard mech board. They are really designed for people who
| are facing injury, injured, or have been injured.
|
| I'd encourage you to look at the Svalboard, I think it solves
| many of the issues you are running into. In the end, moving a
| large mouse is not good for someone with shoulder issues, the
| "Svalmouse" has been tried and solidly rejected. (Using a
| Svalboard hand as a mouse.)
|
| If you want to discuss things, I'm sure you can find me on
| the Svalboard discord. :)
| zamalek wrote:
| I'm not sure you understood me: it _looks_ like the ergo
| mouse (form factor, ergonomics) but is most definitely
| _not_ a mouse. As I said though, it seems more difficult to
| get a keyboard to fit a variety of hands in this form-
| factor.
| jerlam wrote:
| > Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits?
|
| The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft,
| with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of
| them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of
| money.
|
| The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:
|
| https://www.incase.com/pages/incase-designed-by-microsoft-co...
| newlisp wrote:
| Kinesis now has https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/mwave/ as
| a better(to me) Microsoft sculpt clone in a similar price
| range.
| jerlam wrote:
| Looks good, they kept the negative tilt which I find very
| important but nearly impossible to pitch to non-ergonomic
| keyboard users.
| tom_ wrote:
| I've been pretty happy with this as a MS 4000 replacement:
| https://eu.perixx.com/products/periboard-535 - general
| tent/reverse tilt/split angle feels about the same. Like the
| MS 4000, it's a full size keyboard, with symmetrical sets of
| meta keys, unintrusive level of F-lock nonsense, easily
| accessible keyboard volume controls, and a generally standard
| layout that will probably require only minimal retraining.
| Also connects to your computer using a cable... none of that
| wireless nonsense. The UK layout version is under PS100 on
| Amazon.
|
| It feels a bit less solid than the MS 4000, but it's nicer to
| type on.
|
| (The MS 4000 was always a huge pain to repair (endless screws
| to get inside, many annoyingly inaccessible; never anything
| obviously wrong once in there; time-consuming
| cleaning/drying-out process; endless screws to put it back
| together again), but this looks like it might be a bit
| better. Not many screws on the bottom. It isn't thick enough
| for there to be any hiding inside. The keyswitches will
| probably be individually replaceable. Ask me again in 10
| years though!)
| ilc wrote:
| Disclaimer: Volunteer Svalboard Firmware Dev.
|
| For most people the south keys and center are easier to press
| and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions
| anymore, except for holding down keys.
|
| Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people
| have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's
| really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there
| are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they
| are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty
| quickly.)
| jama211 wrote:
| This is wild
| RDaneel0livaw wrote:
| I have loved split ergo boards since childhood. Several years ago
| I found the sp111 board and truly think this is my endgame. I am
| right handed, so a southpaw numpad just makes SO much sense to
| me. Plus I use it for gaming so it's like a built in gaming
| macropad.
|
| I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice
| switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.
| jiehong wrote:
| Looks like a cool kind of keyboard.
|
| I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a
| typematrix). But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.
|
| Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while
| working. With a headset on, people don't notice much since it
| looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.
|
| Coding is still best with a keyboard.
| Twey wrote:
| I don't think there's _fundamentally_ anything hard about voice
| coding, but our current systems are terribly designed for it.
| We need programming languages that are much more keyword-
| rather than symbol-heavy, or more efficient systems of
| pronouncing symbols, or higher-level editing primitives, or
| maybe all of the above. There's some overlap with both
| stenography (which I know some people use for code, but I've
| never got around to setting up a theory for) and also
| structured editing projects like Hazel. Reckon we might see
| more of it in the future, if we're to make the ubiquitous and
| malleable computing dreams a reality.
| donio wrote:
| I am a longtime (25+ years) Datahand user. I have converted my
| units to a USB capable controller long ago and I have some extra
| ones as spares/parts but it might be difficult to get another 25
| years out of them.
|
| Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way
| forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about
| it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand
| users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the
| switches and overall feel.
| ilc wrote:
| Ex-Datahand user, current Svalboard user: (Disclaimer, I work
| on their firmware as a volunteer, they send me hardware.)
|
| The designer was 100% dependent on his Datahand, now he uses a
| Svalboard.
|
| When I got sent my first Svalboard, it was so close feel wise
| that my old muscle memory came back instantly and I started
| complaining that the layout wasn't the same as the old Datahand
| Dvorak layout. I ended up doing a faithful port of that layout,
| then ever time evolved it to the layout I use today.
|
| If you doubt, order a test cluster. You'll see how close it
| comes.
|
| On the discord some users are willing to meet-up with people to
| let them try a board in real life.
| Fraterkes wrote:
| My big fear would be that the same thing would happen that
| happens with vim: you get so used to it that you resent its
| absence. With Vim I can at least enable some kind of mode in many
| typing environments, but if I started loving the Svalboard itd
| mean that I could never use laptops again without feeling at
| least a bit annoyed.
| efnx wrote:
| As a datahand user I can tell you that is indeed the case. But
| 99% of the time (likely more) I'm typing at home.
|
| Why deny yourself the pleasure of a nice typing experience the
| majority of the time?
| ilc wrote:
| Honestly, you can maintain laptop muscle memory if your hands
| are not so injured you can't tolerate the laptop.
|
| I use a laptop keyboard every so often. It isn't my 1st choice,
| but for light work it's fine.
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